n a Cabinet-style setting, surrounded by retired military leaders, Sen. Hillary Clinton said the public should ask whether Democratic presidential rival Barack Obama has met the criteria needed to become the nation’s commander in chief.
“I think that since we now know Sen. (John) McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it’s imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold,” the New York senator told reporters crowded into an infant’s bedroom-sized hotel conference room in Washington.
“I believe that I’ve done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you’ll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy,” she said.
Is she running for the GOP nomination, or is she just trying to make sure that if Obama wins the nomination, he loses in 2008?
Christ on a crutch, I am tired of the Clintons. And just as an FYI, being held as a POW and wrecking your plane on a ship and then being wrong about EVERYGODDAMNEDTHING in Iraq does not make you “Commander in Chief” material. Neither does being in bed next to your husband when he answers the phone at 3am. Please just stfu, Hillary.
demkat620
Got it in one! John Cole FTW!
Andrew
Why does John Cole hate women, puppies, and flowers?
Dennis - SGMM
Just how the fuck does anyone demonstrate that they can cross the “commander-in-chief threshold”? And what the hell is it? About the only thing I come away with from that remark is that Clinton is making a damned good case for Senator Methuselah. Maybe she wants to be his VP.
Jake
Because you’d never dream of changing the subject to discuss the wars or the economy or health care or the environment or education or any of the other shit people really really care about right now would you Hills?
Dear me no. It would be rude to interupt the Republican when he is banging on his Drum o’ SECURITAH.
ken
As a lifelong liberal democrat I am pleased and proud to see our number one standard bearer surrounded by military brass who in support of her.
This is what a real democrat and liberal is like folks: patriotic, strong, tested, insprirational and knowledgable.
I’d say the visuals on this are far more effective than seeing Obama refusing to put his hand over his heart while all around him are singing the national anthem and showing proper respect.
Krista
Yeah, it’s getting a wee bit tiresome to hear her endorse McCain over Obama. Once is a gaffe. Twice…that’s turning into something rather ugly. What I’m getting from it is that if she doesn’t win the nom, then she’d rather the country suffer through another four years of the Republicans, so that she can have another shot in 2012.
With friends like these…
Chris Johnson
Bloody hell, she’s establishing that not only does she like and agree with Bush’s near-godlike executive powers, but she has every intention of running with it should she get the chance.
I do NOT like being scared of this woman when there’s any chance at all she might be running against McCain. Ye gods and flying little puppies. Are we THAT out of control. Can it be take to the streets tiem nao?
Dennis - SGMM
Anyone else ever notice that when a bullshitting troll shows up they tend to preface their posts with something like “As a lifelong liberal democrat…”
p.lukasiak
there is not a damned thing wrong with Hillary.
If Obama can’t convince people that he has the qualfications to be commander in chief when he runs against Hillary, he won’t convince them if he runs against McCain.
I’m sorry that Clinton has to be the one to state the obvious, but it should be obvious, and stated, in no uncertain terms.
John Cole
I have no problem with her making the argument (or trying to) that she is more qualified than Obama for the Presidency.
I do have a problem with her endorsing the opposition while smacking down Obama. I am sorry you fucksticks at hillaryis44 can’t figure that out.
What will your next McCain campaign commercial be, Lukasiak?
demimondian
John, listen carefully. Listening?
Good.
SHE’S RUNNING FOR THE GODDAMNED DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION.
You know what? You concede the points that aren’t worth fighting, and McCain’s war experience isn’t worth arguing. I remind you of the story about Abraham Lincoln (another penny ante Midwestern lawyer): he eas famous for conceding point after point, and,
[Taken from here, although there are many other sources describing exactly this behavior.]
What Earthly value is there to contest McCain’s military experience? None! What value is there for praising it? Lots.
Get a grip, man.
Jake
Hark! I see the wandering track of a lame troll.
And speaking of senseless crap.
I for one do not believe it would be wrong to kick this guy in the fork, but the thick reek of desperation is keeping me at bay.
Halteclere
Has anyone ever asked Clinton if:
1) Being the wife of Bill Gates would make one a great leader of Microsoft’s technical division?
2) Would being the husband of Sandra Day O’Connor make one a great Supreme Court Justice?
3) Does being the wife of Warren Buffett make one ready to take over Berkshire-Hathaway?
4) Does being the spouse of a teacher make one ready to be a good teacher? How about mechanic? Accountant? Pastor?
How is it not intuitively obvious that being the spouse of the President does not make one Presidential material?
How the *F* is is this claim even being taken seriously?
Dennis - SGMM
Dammit! I took the good time and trouble to install and edit Cleek’s Greasemonkey script and I still found myself reading a pluk post. You should be ashamed, John Cole! Ashamed, I say.
I liked the displayed version better:
Digital Amish
My question P.Luk, is what are the qualifications to be commander in chief? You people make it sound like you need to be a graduate of the war college. What qualification do Hillary and McCain have that Obama doesn’t other than a willingness (and for McCain maybe an eagerness) to go to war?
Pooh
Was there a “Mission Accomplished” banner on the back wall?
myiq2xu
Aw gee! If Hillary hadn’t mentioned that experience thingie McCain probably never would have thought of it.
Dennis - SGMM
Maybe you cross the commander-in-chief threshold when you taste another woman’s lipstick on your husband’s dick.
Pooh
Well, what’s the point of being commander if you don’t command em to, you know, do something?
Pooh
That might be too far, Dennis…
Martin
They both voted for a war. And just to show how far over that CiC threshold they were willing to go – they were even willing to vote for an unjust war. Obama is too much of a chicken shit to invade random countries.
Pooh
Not to mention a mental image I really didn’t need just after lunch. Thanks.
Martin
McCain has a husband? Oh, right, Arizona pushed back on DOMA.
Dennis - SGMM
Sure is. But if they want a Burroughsian war to extermination then it’s just far enough.
Andrew
LOL, you’re doing a great spoof of lukasiak’s inane ramblings.
tBone
You can praise his military experience without framing it in an attack on a fellow Democrat. John’s not the one who needs to get a grip here.
I’ve tried to limit my criticism to deranged Hillbots and the bloated ticks like Mark Penn that are attached to her campaign, because I still had a tiny residue of respect for Hillary herself. So much for that. If she’s going to make public statements that sound like she’s angling to be McCain’s VP, fuck her.
Blackacre
How did Bill Clinton pass that threshold (whatever the heck that means) in 1992? Where was his foreign policy/national security experience? Not only was Bush 41 president and commander-in-chief for four years, but he had a military and a CIA background. He lost. So maybe that’s not such a big factor for voters.
sparky
a little note for the Clinton-whatevers who seem to feel the need to defend this kind of campaigning–
as an Obama supporter, i have to say that her campaign tactics have now pushed me to the point where i am probably not going to work for her. i would vote for her but that’s about it. so what you say?
1. campaigning like this is campaign by innuendo. it sucks, and it is SOP for the GOP. i don’t–really really don’t–understand why you think this is a good idea. forget about Obama for a minute–the reason this is a terrible idea is that it generates all kinds of rage in the minds of the people the innuendo is directed against. can’t you think back over the last seven years? didn’t you feel enraged when you were smeared by the GOP as being terrorist-coddling? well this is the same sort of thing, and if you think that people who are assaulted this way are going to come out and work for HRC you are sadly mistaken.
2. John Cole is correct for another reason. that is that while all of us here may understand this is insider stuff the general public does not. what they will see is HRC saying McCain should be president. if you don’t think that’s what the GOP is going to do with this material you are being willfully obtuse.
Chris Johnson
Dennis, that was wrong (and very funny).
I REALLY, really want her to stop this. I’m trying like hell not to hate her and lump her with the neocons, but I’m not voting for a THIRD Bush after having not voted for the first two rounds.
I echo John, with great earnestness- what the _F_ is wrong with this woman? Does she not understand that we need to dismantle the Bush war racket? This is horrible, just horrible, obscene, absurd.
If she is that hot to compete with republicans, how is she going to match their record of corruption, theft and debauchery? In b4 ‘oh wait’…
Martin
I hear Barry Bond’s wife is predicted to hit over 60 homers this season.
calipygian
Unity ’08, bitches!
Seriously, though, I think this is it.
myiq2xu
She didn’t endorse McCain. She acknowledged that in November, McCain will be touting his military experience. Nobody is gonna buy “McCain is too inexperienced to be the Commander in Chief.”
Hillary was endorsed by about 30 retired generals and admirals. If they had endorsed Obama, John would be crowing about it.
Pooh
Slightly OT:
Michigan to hold new caucus to replace primary results?
I for one wonder why this one will not count either…
Jake
Well you see. In the not too long ago time of Before911changedeverything, a man became president because his daddy was president … Ah frick it. I can’t explain that nonsense.
OT. When the heck does No Cussin’ week end? Are you sure it isn’t No Cousins? Because I can’t stand those … brats anyway.
Pooh
myx,
you’re being willfully obtuse. At best.
sparky
forget that serious crap i whined about:
i realized HRC is REALLY angling for a threesome–Clinton/McCain/Leiberman.
ewww.
tim
John:
Is a “fuckstick” a penis? I have one of those. Why is a penis a bad thing?
Tom in Texas
They have No Cousins week in West Virginia. The other 51 weeks are All the Cousins You Can Eat though.
John Cole
As a side note, no cussing week will never be observed here. I have to watch what I say all god damned day as it is.
Dennis - SGMM
I served a hitch in the USN and I took the White House tour once. Can I be Secretary of the Navy?
chopper
when did bill cross this imaginary rubicon, anyways?
Pooh
well in that case, shitpissfuckcocksuckermotherfuckercuntandtits.
chopper
yeah, nice try. as a lifelong millionaire with a harem of scarlett johansson clones, let me say that this is the worst attempt at concern trolling i’ve ever seen.
sparky
chopper:
i believe the answer is: “don’t ask don’t tell”
so if you don’t already know we can’t tell you.
myiq2xu
Things have gotten really strange since Tuesday.
Singularity
Hillary is just doing the math. As Veep in the administration of a 72-year-old, she stands a much better chance of ascending to the presidency than she does as Veep in the administration of a 47-year-old. And you just know Mark Penn has told her that McCain-Clinton ’08 will roll over Obama-Anybody. I imagine this has at least been a topic of discussion at Burson-Marsteller.
Pooh
It was recently pointed out to me that among the more subversive things in HBO’s “Rome” series is that when Caesar crosses the Rubicon with his legion, this supposed huge line of demarcation is really more of a bubbling brook.
zzyzx
Someone on Daily Kos (warning there) said that ABC News reported Clinton rejected a MI caucus. I haven’t found a link yet, so take it with a ton of salt.
Krista
myiq, I call bullshit:
Yes, of course these are things that McCain himself will be touting. AND THAT’S THE GODDAMN POINT. She can promote herself over Obama. That’s totally expected and is par for the course. But she’s promoting MCCAIN OVER OBAMA. How can you not see the difference?
Andrei
Hey John… will you ban me again if I equate Hillary to what I equated Stormy oh so long ago? I’m feeling the urge to let it all hang out!
Just asking…
chopper
i think the democratic party needs to stage an intervention.
but apparently endorsing the republican is. good show.
Blue Neponset
Hillary “Dubya” Clinton strikes again. As much as John McCain is wrong about everything he ain’t George Bush. I will give the man credit for that. Hillary, OTOH, is looking more like Chimpy McFlightsuit every damn day. She would send a class of second graders to Gitmo if it served her purposes.
Chris Johnson
Sparky, what I see is Clinton acting like the whole discourse in this country is set by Bush/Cheney/Rove and the only answer is to out-macho them.
We are talking about WAR CRIMINALS, for God’s sake. Crying “well dammit, I’d kill even MORE towelheads!” is not the answer.
If she is surrounded by ex-Generals I hope to hell they are all, every one, Iraq protesters. It’s possible. Nothing suggests that she is working a “Here I am, and here are all the generals who tried to fight against the Iraq war, and we’re going to do things real differently now- these are the ones I listen to- the ones who were right.”
I would actually respect that.
I don’t see it being expressed that way and it scares the shit out of me. What, do we have to JOIN THE TERRORISTS to get our goddamned rogue country under control? Do we literally not have any legal, honorable options anymore? Are we really seeing the would-be Dem president picking up on the Karl Rove most-badass-sheriff scenario and trying to wrap herself in her fucking OPPONENT, for God’s sake?
This is really horrifying. I did not think there was a thing she could do that would make me not vote for her in an attempt to get out the Republican regime, but this is totally unbearable.
She calls Obama’s vote against the war ‘a speech he gave in 2002’, and sides with ‘bomb bomb Iran’ McCain openly, saying that the two of them have national security experience. THEY WERE WRONG! Our ‘security’ is far worse than it was, all our allies are pissed off, and she is carrying on like this?
I’m sorry but this is deeply upsetting. Heads need to roll. I’m trying to figure out, in shock, if this is the last straw and I actually WILL NOT vote democrat if this woman is the candidate, and I didn’t believe that was possible for me to say a couple days ago.
Once is a gaffe- now it’s looking like she actually means to take what Bush started and continue it.
HORRIBLE.
mac
John, you need to do something about that nasty case of CDS, stat. (At the same time, those folks over at Talk Left need to stop mining clouds for their silver linings.)
tBone
It’s hard to see anything but sensible pantsuit fabric when you have your nose lodged so firmly in your candidate’s ass.
John D.
Well, if that’s false, it’s unimportant, and if that’s true, it’s unimportant.
Neither candidate gets to decide on this — it’s purely up to the DNC and the states.
chopper
what i’m wondering is, if she’s really banking on getting the supers to go her way and overturn the pledged delegate count, why the fuck is she going with a plan of attack that is sure as shit going to piss off the DNC? that’s like half of the superdelegates!
tBone
No, sorry – Obama can sprinkle MUP dust and force the DNC to do his bidding. p. luk explained that in a earlier thread.
chopper
exactly. neither candidate can just wave their hands and make the MI and FL situation fix itself.
if MI decides to work out the problem with the DNC and the DNC is cool with it, objections by any campaign mean nothing.
Robert Sneddon
McCain’s campaign has gone dark, didn’t you notice? The announcement came before Texas/Ohio, that after he won the nom he was going to take a month off “to plan his strategy for the general election”. Translated from the politiceeze that means he’s running on empty cash-wise, and until the tanks get refilled and/or the FEC announces they’re not going to throw his lying ass into the federal pokey for breaking the funding rules he’s out of it. All he’s got is the publicity freebies like the Bush endorsement, and, God help him, people like Hagee.
Obama is fighting McCain and Clinton, Clinton is fighting Obama and ignoring the opportunity to attack McCain while his campaign is lights-out. Instead she keeps stating he’s just as good as she is at a whole lot of things Presidential (without actually going into wonkish details). From where I’m sitting she’s making a run for McCain’s VP slot, and that’s how it’s going to look to a lot of people, GOP and Dems, and most importantly the independent voters. If Senator Clinton doesn’t see any difference between herself and Senator McCain, why should the independents vote for her over McCain?
4tehlulz
Pretty soon, we will find out that the “Hillary” we are seeing is actually Zell Miller in a dress and heavy makeup.
That actually would be preferable to the horrible truth that Hillary would rather see McCain win than Obama.
demimondian
But why do so? Let’s go back and remind ourselves of what we’re looking at here. Let’s see…
SHE’S TRYING TO WIN THE GODDAMN DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION AGAINST BARACK OBAMA.
Right! Now, does it hurt to praise McCain? No. Might it help? Yes. Does it hurt to put Obama down on a point where he’s weak? Um, no…in fact, it’s an unpleasant but true statement.
So…sorry, I stand by my original statement.
AkaDad
Here’s Bill Bradley on PBS last night.
Scotty
The obvious comeback to Clinton is to direct everyone to Stephen Colbert’s ‘The Word’ from the other night. This pretty much sums up the argument. Clinton and McCain’s names can be interchanged during ‘The Word’.
Dennis - SGMM
But she’s doing it on the very points where McCain’s record trumps her own. While it may work in the Democratic primaries her own words will be thrown back at her by myriad Republican 527’s in the general election.
chopper
this is why i could never be a politician like hillary. i could never count as a ‘friend’ somebody who has said horribly degrading things about my own daughter as mccain has about chelsea.
fuck, anybody says shit like that about my kid and i’d sock em in the eye first chance i got. i certainly wouldn’t praise them over my own political party. fuck no.
i guess politics does make strange bedfellows.
calipygian
Please. As a liberal Democrat, I almost spit my latte into my Volvo brand keyboard when I read this and because I am an unemployed abortionist, I can’t afford to replace it.
John S.
Weak sauce, demispoof.
Perhaps if you explained why it doesn’t hurt for Clinton to praise McCain, how it could possibly help and in what way Obama is weaker on this point than Hillary, then perhaps we can talk.
“I SAID SO” and therefore it must be so just sounds like authoritarian nonsense.
myiq2xu
From the linked story:
IOKIYAO?
Not-so-strangely, other sources focused on something else from today’s presser:
Obama questioned her qualifications. He got his answer.
chopper
you know, i already voted for lieberman once.
tBone
I really hope this is you spoofing again.
I have no problem with Hillary praising McCain’s service – Obama has done the same. It’s a smart tactic. I also have no problem with Hillary going after Obama’s perceived weak spots. I have a big fucking problem when she does both at once and hands McCain a ready-made ad to run against Obama if he’s the nominee.
It’s a shitty, scorched-earth tactic. The people who claim Hillary will rip the Democratic Party apart if she thinks there’s the slightest chance it would net her the nomination? It’s because of stuff like this.
myiq2xu
What happened to all that MUPpet talk about how Obama reaches out to Republicans instead of demonizing them?
John S.
Nice to see you’ve conceded the point that Hillary is actually a Republican.
tBone
Did he praise McCain while doing so? No? Huh. How about that.
Krista
George Carlin? Is that you?
Pooh
Obama != someone pissed off with your tendentious idiocy in blog comments section.
TR
Here’s a nice piece from Salon talking about how military leaders are worried about McCain and confident about Obama.
Just a couple:
Dennis - SGMM
She’s handing McCain a ready-made ad to run against herself as well.
myiq2xu
NEWSFLASH:
McCain is already saying Obama lacks the necessary experience.
TR
Olbermann just led off with this issue, by the way.
And now he’s ripping the bark off Wolfson for the Obama=Ken Starr insanity.
Mike S
Same thing was said about Bill, Ronnie, Carter… It’s just not a big deal. Especially when the response just writes itself. As a matter of fact John wrote a damn good one.
Plus a good one came from an Obama surrogate this morning. Essentially he said that Clinton wasn’t even able to answer the first questions in the Ohio debate. How will she “be ready on day one?”
Ted
None of that matters to the Clintons. Based on what I’ve seen, they take a ‘cross that bridge when we come to it’ approach to campaigns, all the while firing missiles in the direction of the bridge.
chopper
i guess her strategy is, after getting the nom, to switch gears and go in the completely opposite direction. i dunno how she’d pull that off tho.
either that, or she hasn’t yet figured out what her strategy for the general will be, because if it’s about experience mccain will mop the floor with her.
demimondian
Oh. I see.
The idea that several people might all be good at some things is not acceptable to the MUPpets. Right. Bingo. The world is black and white…if that’s not racist…there’s no reason to blunt the bad guys best threats.
Kewl. Roxx0rs, dude. I’m down with that. Nuance? Nah, that’s for sissies, not PONIES!
[/shakes head incredulously]
John S.
Oh, well in that case I guess Hillary had better go along for the ride with what seems to be the leading GOP attack.
Go along, get along is what Hillary does best, after all!
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Hillary is now “Senator LieberClinton”
chopper
i know exactly what will happen if hillary gets the nom:
“you know all that shit i said about experience? well, scratch that, i’m campaigning on change. yes we can!”
tBone
You’ve passed through spoof and gone to “completely impenetrable.” Seriously, I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re on about here.
chopper
heh. gotta love countdown.
“This is the ‘garbage disposal’ part of the ‘kitchen sink’.”
firebrand
At this point, are you really surprised he’s totally blind to this?
TR
NEWSFLASH: Criticism from your own party is much, much more damaging than criticism from the other party. (See also Lieberman, Joe; Miller, Zell.)
4tehlulz
The correct answer is: “I don’t know how anyone can say McCain’s qualified to be Commander-in-Chief.”
Andrew
Of course, Obama’s counter to this stupid experience line is pretty straight forward: “Experience only counts if it results in good judgement.”
TR
Olbermann is stomping this stupidity to bits. Bring the pain, Keith!
firebrand
NEWSFLASH:
Let the Republicans do their own dirty work for themselves. Democrats DO NOT HELP THEM DO IT!!
Dennis - SGMM
Now, now, let’s be fair: Senator McClinton.
John S.
That’s a good point, demispoof.
When the accusation that someone is not good at something is levied, is it the responsibility of the accuser to make their case or for the accusee to prove them wrong?
Buck
Up until now I’ve tried to remain neutral in the Clinton/Obama ’08 Danceoff Craptacular… but not any more.
If it looks shitty and smells shitty, odds are, it’s shitty… and Hillary is being pretty damn shitty.
Defend her all you want. Scream, howl, fling your poo at me… it want change a thing. She’s shitty.
Andrew
Olbermann, paraphrased: “Doesn’t this first lady business mean that Laura Bush has almost as much foreign policy experience as Hillary?”
Mike P
What will Bill Clinton’s experience that made him ready to be Commander in Chief?
Oh wait…
As I saw somewhere else, there’s really only a few people who could attest to what it’s like to get that call…they’re called former presidents. Hillary’s posturing is ridiculous because she will get whacked with the exact same thing she’s now using to tear down Obama with. She can’t event attempt to say with a straight face that she has more experience than McCain. It’s laughable.
demimondian
Oh, sorry, Steak.
Praising McCain is treason? Christ, get a grip! The guy’s a legitimate war hero, right? Why *not* praise him? He’s going to use that, no matter what, right?
If you’re going to Swiftboat that, don’t you want to emphasize that, so that you can play the doubt card better?
If you’re not, don’t you blunt the inevitable questions from Timmeh RussetPotato by saying that now?
So what harm is done? None.
OTOH, if you’ve got a reputation for being a ball-crushing unwomanly man-eater, and you need to go negative on one opponent, doesn’t it help to go positive on the next one?
Nah…that’s too calculating. Too cold. Not enough of the whole MUPpet “not easy being green” business.
Buck
(won’t)
Mike P
Buck,
But she’s a strong woman!
chopper
come on, demi, you’re showing too much of your hand here.
Dennis - SGMM
When the first opponent is in your party and the second is in the opposite party: no.
p.a.
I first read her quotes at TPM. To paraphrase how I commented there: 1) I want to Puke. 2) How long before she announces Lieberman (or maybe Zell Miller) as her veep? 3) Can’t wait to see the Hillbots defend her choice of LieberMiller. 4) Between publicly crawling up McCain’s ass and the NAFTA/Canada shenanigans, if she’s the nominee I mat vote Green; you gotta be able to look in the mirror when you wake up in the morning.
Davebo
Look, McCain has impeccable foreign policy credentials.
He was shot down over Hanoi, was predictably captured.
Prior to that he bailed out of his parked plane during the Forsetfire event.
He skid through the Naval Academy graduating fifth from the bottom of his class.
He gets into the Naval Academy because both his grandfather and father were Admirals in the Navy.
Anything starting to find familiar here?
Ted
I love that Hillary fans can’t argue about the candidates without using diminutive ‘nicknames’ for the supporters of their non-favored candidate. And yes, I know what it means, but it’s meant to be mocking. Just don’t expect any reciprocal respect.
Xenos
NEWSFLASH:
Clinton has backed off from her conciliatory position re FL and Mi: MI must have election, FL must be seated as is.
This means that the issue that burned up 315 bitchy comments under Michael D’s post is utterly irrelevant. Just sayin’.
As for Clinton’s latest maneuvering, screw her, screw her people, screw the DLC, screw them all. Screw McAuliff twice, Screw Penn a dozen times. They want control of the party? Sure, watch it burn, assholes. 1968 redux. We can’t save the country without the Democratic party, but we can’t save anything with that crew in charge.
Where the F. is Edwards? Where is Richardson? Gore? Uh guys, you want to step in here, or are you going to let this go down?
AkaDad
OMG
After attacking Obama for a week on NAFTA, Keith is saying it was Clinton who said take her NAFTA rhetoric with the grain of salt.
ThymeZone
According to widely reported story and as mentioned, now on Countdown, NAFTA-gate wasn’t true.
tBone
Apparently you missed the part where I said:
The problem isn’t her praising McCain. The problem is her doing it in the context of an attack on Obama. This is a fairly simple concept that even Spoof-Demi should be able to grasp.
myiq2xu
If you think this is bad, wait a couple more weeks. Losing on Tuesday seems to have triggered something in MUPpet land.
ThymeZone
Other than complete puffery and nonsense, you mean?
Besides 3 years more than Obama in the Senate, and riding in the car with a president a lot, what exactly is the big experience edge she claims to have, Paul?
Davis X. Machina
Is there another construction to put on this besides “Vote for me. Vote for McCain, if you must. But do not vote for that other guy”? Because there is, I’m not seeing it.
And as for experience, I’m going to appeal to the state Commissioner of Education to have the subject-area endorsements added to my teach ing certificate that correspontd to my wife’s college majors.
Davebo
But the more I think about it the less it bothers me.
Obama has been trying to contrast experience for judgement. He could concede that Hillary Clinton and John McCain have tons of foreign policy experience.
As do Condi Rice, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, etc.
Then you add to Clinton’s poor judgement by mentioning that staggering naivity she displayed, or wants us to think she displayed, when she really really believed her vote on the AUMF was to promote diplomatic and inspection efforts.
I personally don’t think she was that naive. Though obviously a lot of her supporters here are.
Essentially though, the only way it makes sense is if her pitch is “Vote for me! I’m the idiot with experience!”
Wilfred
Two words for Clinton: Fuck off.
Two words for Obama: Third party.
chopper
i dunno. “vote for me, or vote for the republican” doesn’t sit too well with this democrat.
Ted
Hillary will still bring it up and hammer Obama on it. Doesn’t matter what actually happened.
Ok, Hillary supporters; I grew up as a teenager listening to up to three hours of Rush a day on some days (my mom had him blaring on every radio in the house, so she could listen from anywhere while doing chores). Can you folks explain to me why all the bullshit he spewed about Bill and her for 8 years is suddenly starting to sound a bit on the note?
Thanks for defending this Rovian bullshit she has been, and will continue, to pull.
John S.
Oh sure, blame Hillary for planting the story. Typical MUPpet behavior. Clinton rules, eh?
All Hillary did was go around for two weeks publicly saying, “Shame on you, Barack Obama!” And she can speak with authority on the topic, because she privately feels that same shame.
What’s the big deal? SHE’S RUNNING FOR THE GODDAMNED DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I don’t see what everyone is getting so excited about.
We have always been at war with EastOBAMAsia.
mac
Full moonbat rising!
Ted
If Hillary loses the nomination, I think you guys should hire paid and bused-in rioters to DNC headquarters or wherever. Put on a great show, and maybe scare enough of the right people. This has been tried before, with much success, and it’s just the kind of thing Mark Penn would think of.
John S.
Bingo.
I said earlier that Obama needs to let Hillary count herself amongst such excellent company.
Clinton = McCain. Kill two birds with one stone.
Dennis - SGMM
mac just joined the pie factory.
myiq2xu
Do you need a Wahmbulance? Obama needs to quit whining about how unfair Hillary is being to him.
That’s all he does lately.
Wah – she sent Drudge a funny picture of me!
Wah – she didn’t say I wasn’t a Muslim strongly enough!
Wah – she was a hypocrite about NAFTA!
Wah – she’s winning!
dslak
Demi is missing the point. It’s conceded that Clinton’s tactic will increase her chances of winning the Democratic nomination. The problem is that, should Obama win the nomination, she’s decreasing the chances of the other Democrat to win.
Also, insofar as the argument against such tactics is moral, “x is trying to win” does not address the argument.
Badtux
John Cole is right about one thing. Praising McCain’s military service in the era of Rovian politics is just effin’ *STUPID*. Did you hear any Republicans praising John Kerry’s military service when he was running for President? No? Instead, they did everything they could do to attack his strength and “prove” that he wasn’t a “real” war hero. Now, John McCain is even more succeptable to such a “swift boat” attack than John Kerry was. I mean, we got a guy who was a D student at the Navy academy, who was a bad pilot who flew a whole 23 missions hitting by his own admission nothing of value before he got shot down, and then he spent the rest of his time sitting in a bamboo cage. Oooh, how heroic. Like sitting in a bamboo cage trains a fighter pilot to be a leader of men. Wow. Karl Rove would (and did) have a field day with this, and by the end of the day folks would think John McCain was some loose cannon who got driven nuts by his imprisonment and not qualified to lead a friggin’ shrimp boat, much less a nation. Instead, Hillary praises the man’s leadership skills, thereby giving him legitimacy that he probably hasn’t earned.
That’s the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Republicans fight to win. Democrats, on the other hand, stand around in circles firing at each other in circular firing squads while the guy they’re supposed to be shooting stands outside the circle looking amused. Hillary should be conceding *nothing* about John McCain if she’s truly believing she’s going to be the Presidential candidate. Instead she’s praising him. Huh.
John S.
And so he shall:
Obama Sez:
See those two crazy fuckers over there? I’m not a damn thing like either of them.
dslak
Myiq, you seem to be confusing the claims made by some Obama supporters and those made by Obama or people in his campaign.
borehole
I came here for the explicit purpose of seeing p.luk and myiq eat some crow over this, but no, they’re defending the indefensible. I guess I’m an idiot, because I’m surprised by this.
When McCain gets sworn in, be sure to stop by regularly to make retarded MUPpet jokes, guys. Hopefully the terrified screams of Iranian civilians being incinerated won’t drown out your pithy fuckin’ witticisms.
Pooh
It has nothing to do with Tuesday and everything to do with you being an insufferable twat. I like PIE!
mere mortal
How about having an office and staff in the White House for 8 years? Perhaps you could ask former president Clinton about her advice and participation in such matters during that period?
It is so precious that Obama can attack fellow Democrat Clinton for support of the Iraq AUMF, but she may not attack fellow Democrat Obama back on lack of experience. That would be negative campaigning, Clintonian, and all the rest.
Same Clinton rules, just a different election.
Jen
Cleek, are you here? I installed your script but I’m a little confused about editing it. If I have it installed, and reload the page, and it doesn’t change comments already here, does that mean I edited the bad guys wrong? I’m so hopeless, I’m sorry.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
I won’t vote for a lying hypocrite.
Clinton and her supporters are going for scorched earth. They shouldn’t be surprised when they find out that all their bridges have gone up in smoke.
scrutinizer
Demimonde–
The point isn’t that Clinton praises McCain. The point is that Clinton has now implied twice that McCain is preferable to Obama.
Yes, Clinton is fighting Obama for the Democratic nomination. I’ll give Clinton some leeway on tactics because of that. But after the Convention, either Clinton or Obama will be the losers, and the other will be expected to support the other in the GE. If Clinton is saying now “It’s either me or McCain, Obama is a big poopyhead”, how does she reverse field and actively support Obama if Obama is the winner? And if Obama loses the nomination, she’s writing a script for McCain that will hurt her; after all, McCain has the better claim to political experience and as a national security hawk.
This election isn’t going to be decided on national security issues anyway; it’s about the economy and social issues. Clinton is not going to be able to take national security away from the Repubs, particularly “100 years in Iraq” McCain. What Clinton will do with these silly games is split support away for the nominee after the Convention, no matter who it is.
I’ve long said that I would support the Democratic nominee whoever that is, but it’s going to be increasingly difficult to hold my nose and vote for Clinton if she continues in this vein.
ThymeZone
No, really? You mean “Obama Wins Most Texas Delegates?”
Ted
In other words, you think deliberately fanning Muslim-phobia flames with irrelevant pictures sent to Sludge really highlights Hillary’s qualifications for the office. Additionally, you think thumping a damaging NAFTA-related media story about Obama that in reality was about herself really contrasts her ‘experience’ with his.
Got it. Just want to make sure I’m clear on this.
I’ll still vote for the female Rove if it comes to that, but I’d kind of appreciate it if she actually, you know, campaigned on the awesomeness of herself, instead of how much Obama sucks. It’s usually a sign of weakness when a candidate does the latter.
TR
Man, if only there were records from her time in the White House. I mean, if such records existed — hypothetically speaking here, I know — then her campaign could release them and we could all see just what she did in the White House!
If only that could happen. If only such records existed. If. Only.
John S.
Today’s lesson on Things That Are Different is brought to you by the letter Q…
Fact.
Opinion.
/roll credits
myiq2xu
Hillary gets blamed for everything I say so WTF?
Snark aside, Hillary is hitting Obama left and right and all that’s coming from his direction is whining.
She has knocked him off his game and she isn’t letting up. If he doesn’t recover soon he is going down.
Politics ain’t beanbag.
Davis X. Machina
… she may not attack fellow Democrat Obama back on lack of experience
Not so long as she’s basically a one-term-and-a-bit big state senator, and he’s a one-term big state senator.
Difference of degree, not difference in nature
This country has done well with other Illinois lawyers of limited DC experience,and a fair amount of time in Springfield.
John D.
Um, what?
She’s behind by well over a hundred pledged delegates, and her lead in superdelegates has shrunk from ~100 to 39, and she’s *winning*?
Your claim to superior intelligence in your handle is looking less like a mistake and more like a flat out lie.
We need a better class of spoof in here, dammit. BIRDZILLA with his INTERESTING use of CAPS at RANDOM spots in the sentence, Darrell with his patented nonsense and heraculean ability to ignore linked evidence, Stormy’s apparently drug-induced ability to ramble for pages — those. I miss those, God help me.
p. luk and myiq are just boring in comparison. So sad.
Ted
Indeed. If the Dems really wanted to fight on GOP terms, they’d be using the ‘McCain is nuts from his captivity’ smear the anti-McCain repubs already puked up on a platter.
Jen
Well, I definitely did it wrong. I needed myiq to pipe up since I installed the script, and he didn’t fail me. Are there any other programming geeks around here? I’ll talk MST 3k with you if you help me.
dslak
Even if this were so, it wouldn’t make it true that Obama or his campaign had said those things.
Other than examples you’ve given of people who aren’t associated with his campaign, what evidence is there of this?
This is so obvious that no one’s even disputing it. What’s being questioned are the methods she’s using.
Davebo
Caucus delegates don’t count. Sort of like Mississippi and North Carolina.
myiq2xu
That picture didn’t come from Hillary, and she said over and over that she doesn’t think he is a Muslim.
Obama muffed the NAFTA thing by denying it and getting busted.
For the last couple weeks Obama has been on the defensive, and Hillary has been merciless. No serious hits but the cumulative effect is beginning to show.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Yesterday I was in pain and turmoil, but I feel much better now. I’ve had a vision – of the future.
I see a health-care mandate, stomping on a human face, forever.
Ted
That’s my favorite one in myiq.5xu’s list. Cuz, you know, she actually technically losing.
Andrew
I predict that Hillary will say that Obama has twice as many black babies as McCain does.
scrutinizer
myiqistiny:
At least come up with something, you know, not totally ignorant. Hell, when all the votes are counted, she lost in Texas too.
Dennis - SGMM
Okay, because Cleek hasn’t responded yet, I will. I’m not a programmer but I can use Notepad! You have to edit Cleek’s estimable script.
Assuming you’re on Windows, do a search for:
balloonjuicedisemvowelle.user.js
When you find it, right click on the thing and choose Edit.
Read until you find Cleek’s instructions on how to add names. You’ll find Cassidy there already. Just copy the format for any names that you wish to add.
TR
And Missouri and Colorado and Virginia and Maryland and Washington and Wisconsin…
Jen
Yeah, I can get to the editing part, I’m just not sure exactly what to take out and what to leave in. But I didn’t see Cassidy, so I might’ve done it wrong.
John S.
Winning sure does look funny if you’re a Clinton!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
By the way, how much experience did Lincoln have in 1860? I bet he never took any phone calls at 3:00 AM. If we elect Obama, I bet that with his inexperience he’ll get us into a war, lose a bunch of battles with incompetent generalship, and get at least 620,000 Americans killed. We cannot afford to take the risk.
dslak
Obama wasn’t busted, actually. The Canadians are now trying to blame Clinton for their own fuck up.
Regardless, even if Clinton should graciously accept anything that helps her campaign, anyone who’s not a hack ought to find foreign meddling in American campaigns to this degree rather disturbing.
Now I see why people in other countries get so pissed when the US does this to their elections.
Ted
Funny, because Sludge said it was sent to him by someone in her campaign. Her campaign said Sludge sent it to them. Sorry, but recent events force me to suppress my gag reflex and find even Sludge more believable on this.
Busted for what? The CA PM’s staffer said it was Hillary’s campaign that told them to take her NAFTA bashing ‘with a grain of salt’, or are you not up to speed?
dslak
Neither candidate is “winning,” as they’ll both need superdelegates to carry the nomination. Now it’s down to making the most convincing case for their votes, and continuing popular support is going to be a major part of that case.
scrutinizer
Or maybe, you know, he denied because it was actually Clinton people who talk to the Canadians.
Rick Taylor
Alright, I guess I was completely wrong about Clinton. I thought she had some respect for the Democratic party and not just to her own candidacy. Anyone got a steaming pile of crow I can eat?
p.a.
Looks like delegate-wise, Tuesday was a break even proposition. At this point Obama just needs to hold serve. Until the NAFTA/Canada b.s., he was trending up in Ohio. Maybe Hillary’s next ads won’t stop at darkening Obama’s skin. Maybe show him presiding at the wedding of O.J. and Willie Horton. Or piloting a plane into a building.
Pooh
Canadian political flunkies have a well-known pro-Pony bias.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
If the nomination is still deadlocked when we get to the convention in Denver, we should draft General Petraeus for our nominee. He has way more commander guy experience than any of the other candidates. That’s what this election is going to be about, so why not go with the best!
vwcat
You said it better than I ever could. WTF is wrong with this woman?
The fever of power madness has boiled her little brain.
And like you, I am so sick of the Clintons that it would not be much difference between another 4 years of a republicans and the sleazy Clintons in the white house.
Voters. please spare this country from either one.
scrutinizer
I believe that being ahead in the delegate count after the March 4 contests is technically called “winning” those contests.
chopper
yeah, vs mrs “why are the stupid caucuses so unfair?!”
i hate to be the one to point it out, but who has more pledged delegates again?
Dennis - SGMM
Jen, in Notepad click on Edit on the menu bar then select Find and enter Cassidy. That will take you to the right place in the script.
Just use Copy and paste and type whatever name you want between the quotation marks.
Or, email cyberden at gmail dot com with the names (Even mine!) that you wish to add and I’ll return an edited script to you.
Pb
Wow, sweet photo op. Did you know that when you stand near people with military experience, you automatically get more military experience? It works just like being First Lady! Yeah, she’s totally commander in chief material now, and we’ll be able to count on her to deliver the most powerfully staged photo ops in the world!
vwcat
Scrutinizer: I saw that on Olbermann tonight. I wonder if the lapdog press is going to make as big a stink over that – the real truth – as they did over the Clinton planted lie smearing Obama?
Ah, who am i kidding? The truth will never be known and they will never correct the whole thing.
They are too afraid Clinton will stomp her feet and whine about being a victim again if they told the truth.
Ted
I think Bill should start talking about fairy tales and Jesse Jackson again. It really highlights Hillary’s command of domestic policy minutiae.
ThymeZone
Okay, so when she says she is best prepared to take the 3 am phone call, she means, she can hand the phone to the uniformed guy standing next to her?
Pb
Yeah, but what’s a little 150+ pledged delegate lead between friends, right? Now, once Obama passes her in the superdelegate counts (I’m predicting within the next month or less), that’ll be something to watch…
jake
McCain/Clinton ’08.
Pb
Also, why is John McCain in uniform?
dslak
When it comes to arguments about military matters, being able to say that officers and retired officers support your views is simply a way of demonstrating that your views are not (entirely) divorced from reality. Let’s not pretend that most people are really concerned about the arguments, though.
Buck
If you lend yourself to shitty politicking, you’re bound to end up being a shitty public servant. Example? Look at the swiftboating of 2000 and 2004, and who was doing it. Yes, they won. But that makes them no less shitty.
I hated that that shit happened. But a part of me was glad to know that we managed to stay above it. Up until now, anyways.
SteveinSC
Badtux: I with you on the Insane McKane is a war hero bullshit. I for one am sick and tired of “thank you for your service” crap. McInsane flew around in a airplane and bombed the do-Jesus out of a bunch of fucking peasants on the ground. They accidently shot his ass down and they brutalized him. How does that give you Commander-in-Chief experience? What did his Vietnam experience teach him? Don’t fly over hottentots again and drop bombs? Big Fucking deal. Hey, could be not all that crap Bush threw at him in 2000 is all that wrong. Maybe he IS crazy. I’d like someone to give some examples of his sage foreign policy opinions instructed by his “war” experience.
myiq2xu
Oops:
tBone
I think Cleek updated the script and removed the preset commenters – I assume that’s why she’s not seeing any familiar names in the list.
Jen, the portion you need to edit is near the top of the script – it looks like this:
Replace the items in quotes with the commenter names (leave the quotes around them, though) – like so:
Buck
Jen, tBone…
If this script is what I think it is, how does one go about getting their hands on a copy?
dslak
Myiq, that certainly does show someone with the Obama campaign “whining,” as you so delicatly put it. But it’s only whining about Clinton winning, which is a legitimate thing to do during a campaign, and is pretty universal with all of them when the chips are down. Or are such things only whining when the Obama campaign does it?
Pb
Obviously that we didn’t stay in long enough, or kill enough civilians. Maybe he’ll re-invade, and show them what ten thousand years of benevolent occupation really looks like.
chopper
so i guess laura bush is totally prepared for the presidency as well. i can’t wait for 2012. maybe she and barbara can go head to head in the GOP primary.
demimondian
Easily.
She won’t be the voice of Obama’s foreign policy team; he’ll get some other person to handle those questions.
Please, try to wrap your Rainbow Connection heads around the fact that McCain is not vulnerable to attack from either of them. Any attacks on his foreign policy credentials will be levied by surrogates who have the foreign policy credentials to make it stick.
That means Larry Johnson, or Wes Clark, of Richard Clarke, or…hell, Howard Dean! You get the picture. McCain is vulnerable to attack for his bad judgment, but Clinton can not bring it off; she voted wrong on AUMF and hasn’t ever served in uniform. Obama may talk a good game now, but he’s not going to be able to make the case that he would have done the right thing about Iraq; he missed too many votes.
What Clinton is doing is not good for Teh MUP. Tough horseshoes, pony; show me you can kick and not just neigh.
dslak
By the way, I have to give The Scotsman props for not taking that “off the record” shit seriously. If you don’t want to be off the record, don’t talk in the presence of journalists.
Of course, journalists are a rare breed in the US these days. Mostly we have failed stenographers.
myiq2xu
I just noticed something. Didn’t Obama become a Senator in 2005?
I guess he already had plans.
Chris Johnson
I had to watch some Jon Stewart to cheer up- here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE&feature=related
John S.
That’s our gal!
Me personally, I’d rather be called a monster than Bush, Rove or Starr.
Ted
Yeah. When he showed up in 2003 at the Capitol building demanding to be given a Senate vote, he was turned away. He could have persisted, though, and not ‘missed’ those votes.
That slacker.
myiq2xu
How many times will Obama play the race card?
Jen
OOH,it worked. I was trying to make it too complicated and choose an option for a type of disemvoweller. Thanks guys!
You can get it here, Buck.
John S.
As many times as Hillary plays the damsel-in-distress card?
Ted
Yes, and Hillary didn’t, that’s for sure. This presidency thing just occurred to her last year. And her running for Senate in the first place had zero to do with a future White House run.
Further proof: I’m sure most other Senators do not have foreign policy advisers, what with their never having to deal with foreign policy or anything.
Seriously, is this all you can come up with? You can’t even keep your snide remarks safe enough that they don’t apply equally to your favored candidate. Lame.
chopper
ask myiq, he never ate any of the plate he ended up with after predicting a major clinton win on super tuesday.
Ted
About as many times as Hillary does. You know, Obama goes to Africa and puts on their scary terrorist clothes! Sure Obama won South Carolina; but it doesn’t matter, because so did Jesse Jackson! This whole thing is a fairy tale!
That sort of thing.
jcricket
Not sure if you’re spoofing or being serious, but I agree with this. I understand it’s infuriating to Obama supporters, and they obviously disagree with the tactic being used by any Democrat. I just don’t think it’ll have the negative effects on the party, or even Obama, they seem to.
And as we’ve discussed on some other threads, we’re not really representative of average voters. Not even close. I think Kevin Drum and Atrios have a more accurate read on how this contest is being viewed by the average voter (hint: with interest and enthusiasm) than the hyper-partisans (self included) that populate political blog comment forums.
myiq2xu
Step back for a second and look at the big picture. Obama hasn’t won a news cycle in about two weeks.
Every day he’s on the defensive and he (or his surrogates) are either getting hammered by reporters or complaining about Hillary. That’s a complete reversal from a few weeks ago, when Hillary was on the defensive every day.
He’s been thrown off his game and Hillary is gaining on him. If he doesn’t turn it around, she will knock him out.
Is some of it unfair? Sure, but Hillary was getting a raw deal for a while too.
myiq2xu
Hmmm. She won California, NY, Massachusetts, where else?
Buck
Jen, thanks… You’re right – IT WORKS!
LOL!
myiq2xu
Good satire, you had me thinking you were serious for a while there.
Buck
This is TOO funny!
myiq2xu
I think it’s hilarious that people would come to a political blog and then want to screen out dissenting opinions.
chopper
who won the more delegates on super tuesday? or are you guys still only counting the “states that matter”?
jake
Oh God, pass the heart pills. I don’t know about L.B. but I can picture Iron Babs lounging atop a pile of corpses, picking her teeth with a baby’s finger bone: “Well, these people didn’t have much…”
Jen
Yeah, cleek’s a genius.
dslak
Myiq, my only contention was that your one proven example of “whining” was the one thing on your list that’s universal among every campaign that’s down on its luck.
Andrew
Those don’t count. Too many sushi eating, latte drinking, volvo driving liberals.
myiq2xu
Welcome to Marie Callenders
No diversity of opinion, but lots of pie.
Just like Red State
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Translation: the opposing team has an impenetrable secondary. Corners, safeties, linebackers – pro-Bowl every one of them. That’s why it’s perfectly OK for me to throw an interception that gets run back for a touchdown against my side. To do anything else (like I dunno – maybe run the ball) would be stupid. Just ask Gregg Easterbrook!
Dennis - SGMM
tBone, thanks for helping to sort that out. Everyone should enjoy:
Peach, strawberry, apple, blueberry, pecan, even mincemeat, they’re all damned good. Because they’re pies.
myiq2xu
The Obama campaign (and supporters) has whined about SNL, the Drudge photo, Hillary’s tax returns, today’s presser, the 3am ad, NAFTAgate, plagiarismgate, allegedly darkened photos, re-votes.
Pb
Opinions are fine, it’s just a few idiots that can get tiresome.
Woo, myiq2xu likes pie!
tBone
No, at Red State you (and all of the rest of us) would have been banned. Here, you can post as much drivel as you want. Cheer up, little pie-lover.
MJ
NEWS FLASH It is even worse when it comes from your own advisor.
chopper
heh.
Ted
The trouble comes from commenters who morph into Darrell when their favored candidate is legitimately criticized for being a dirty shitbag of a campaigner. I hear Obama has black babies! Turbans, turbans!
Anyway, I wouldn’t take it personally. They’re just trying to rid the threads of largely useless clutter.
Hypatia
Actually, the Clintons did just that in 1992, so not only would they dream of it, they thought it up in the first place. If Obama did that, it wouldn’t be the first time he’s borrowed from the Clinton playbook. But we were not at war then. It would not be smart for either Obama or Clinton to disregard national security this time around. Yes, they should be emphasizing the war and the economy, but recent history shows that the GOP will not hesitate to hammer on the issue, and it’s worked for them. I didn’t much care for the minor efforts at scare tactics Clinton has tried in the past, but Democrats shouldn’t let themselves be outflanked on this issue.
Indeed. What made that mousy wifey type Katharine Graham think she could run The Washington Post? Totally unqualified for the position, apart from a minor job at the paper back when and holding all that family stock. She should have sold out the way all the men around her were telling her to. And what about those Congressional widows who are urged by their parties to run for their husbands’ seats? These women have nothing to offer in the public sphere.
Asti
I gotta tell ya, if she keeps this up, by the time she’s done, I don’t know if I’ll be able to say the same. I may just sit this one out if she’s somehow nominated.
scrutinizer
Silly little man.
It’s not about scoring points against McCain. It’s about Clinton saying that the only two qualified candidates in the race are her and McCain. She’s playing scorched earth here for sure—there’s no loyalty to party there at all. She’s not just saying “I’m a better choice than Obama,” which is fine. She’s saying “If you don’t nominate me, then McCain is a better choice than Obama.” Whatever myiqisnegative thinks, Clinton is not ahead on points here, and the more she pumps up McCain at the expense of Obama, the more she puts a Democratic victory in November at risk. That’s stupid and irresponsible, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there isn’t a backlash among uncommitted superdelegates to move to Obama and end this thing if she keeps it up.
Look, this isn’t about Obama. If Clinton can find a way to beat Obama without endorsing Republicans, fine with me. But these tactics are harmful to the party and to a potential victory in November. I’d scream just as loudly if Obama were out there saying “Me and my BFF John McCain have both had more experience as elected officials than Clinton.” You don’t give the opponent free publicity, and you don’t weaken your party’s viability. The Reptilicons, whatever their sins, and they are legion, don’t fuck up like this.
tBone
I have two words for you: Mary Bono.
jake
Shorter Hypatia: NINELEVEN CHANGED EVERYTHING!
Or something.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Analogy #2:
The time: December 23, 1944
The place: Bastogne
Taking advantage of a break in the terrible weather, the US Air Force is doing everything humanly possible to bomb the crap out of the positions held by the 101st Airborne.
101st to USAF: Ceasefire! Damnit, WTF are you doing!
USAF to 101st: The Germans have better AA guns, so we thought it would be easier if we bombed you instead. No sense in taking on those 88’s if you don’t have to.
tBone
“Now they’re in my belly. I’d say this has worked out very well for them.”
The Other Steve
My boss came to me today and said “If Clinton get’s the nomination, I’m voting for McCain”. Just a month ago we were both talking about how we thought either candidate was pretty good.
J. Michael Neal
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’m starting to think that I might vote for McCain if Clinton wins the nomination. Watching this train wreck, I’m coming to the conclusion that a Clinton presidency would be a disaster. It’s likely to set back the things I want to see happen by a decade.
It’s clear that she has exactly the same policy of, “Do Whatever the Fuck We Want To,” that the Bush administration has. A Clinton administration isn’t going to turn back any of the executive power abuses we’ve seen for the last seven years. She likes it that way. That’s disaster #1.
Disaster #2 comes when she tries to implement her health care plan. Watching her, I can’t come up with any reason not to think that it’s going to be a replay of 1993. She would take the same approach, making the same tactical mistakes she did then, and is going to find that she can’t get cloture in the Senate. What she’d accomplish is to demonize health care reform all over again, and it’ll be another fifteen years before someone can try again.
The woman can’t learn. She has one mindset, and one mindset only. When that doesn’t work, she has no Plan B. I think Bill was a good president, for the 1990s. It isn’t the 1990s any longer. She isn’t going to get a massive run up in the NASDAQ to help her create a good economy. Quite the opposite. We’ve come to the point that bubble economics has created a mess, and someone is going to have to get creative to solve it.
So far as I can tell, Clinton doesn’t have a creative bone in her body. She won’t get anything done. Given how ineffective I think she would be as president, I am coming to the conclusion that I would actually prefer that the Republicans get tagged with all of the blame.
It hurts like hell to put off any solutions for four years, but I think that we’ll actually be farther away from them than that if Clinton is president. I hate the idea of “heightening the contradictions.” In part, I hate it because it is wrong. There is no need to make things worse before we make them better. I just don’t think that Clinton can make them better, and will just be a setback.
demimondian
No — it’s about WINING THE FREAKING DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION. That’s the point.
I’m vewwy vewwy sowwy that the [snif] poor MUP’s feelings are getting hurt by the MEAN NASTY HILDEBEAST calling him unprepared and all that. I feel badder still for his poor MUPpets, who were so busy looking forward to the convention that they forgot to win first. (Although, to be fair, my guess is that Sen. Obama is bearing up just fine, thank you very much. That one’s tough, he is. It’s the MUPpets that are having trouble with this reality stuff.)
Clinton can turn McCain into mincemeat after September. Doubt it? Look at what she’s been doing to Obama, a much more popular and better funded candidate. Obama? Well, pony, I believe you’re tough on the inside. Now prove it. Seal the win, and show me.
Ted
This anecdote is so damn common it’s frightening. And the Democrats are going to possibly blow this opportunity.
chopper
exactly.
scrutinizer
I like your analogy, I really do—but in 1944 it was the US Army Air Forces, not the United States Air Force.
Chris Johnson
I thought our national security basically sucks, that Al Quaeda was in Iraq largely because we broke it and made it a fertile breeding ground for anti-American terrorism, that most people are not in favor of continuing the war in Iraq or starting lots of neat new wars with the pitiful remnants of our military, and that taking a more rightwing position than the GOP in order to not be outflanked was basically obliterating the whole point of voting for a Democrat to try and clean up some of the mess.
Which I guess means your whole post sounds totally insane. Just sayin’…
myiq2xu
You heard that too?
demimondian
Oh, and all the First Lady jokes? I have two words for you: Eleanor Roosevelt.
Ted
Well, lesbians can be very funny, interesting people.
p.lukasiak
I guess I’ll ask my original question again — if Obama can’t answer this question effectively when its raised by Clinton, how do you expect him to deal with it when its raised by McCain.
I’m mean, so far, all Obama can seem to respond with is “I gave a speech an at anti-war rally, and I can distort the nature of the AUMF issue that Hillary voted for.” And that’s not cutting it.
chopper
this isn’t just about the presidency, demi. clinton and obama aren’t the only democrats running for office this fall.
clinton seems to forget that she belongs to a political party, and that political party is hoping to make massive gains in the house and senate. well, at least as long as the presumptive nominees don’t ENDORSE THE FUCKING REPUBLICAN PARTY OVER THE DEMOCRATS.
do you think mrs “80 percent of the states don’t matter and BTW john mccain is so awesome” is going to have any coattails at all in this election?
scrutinizer
Absolutely. She made a great President.
Oh, wait—
chopper
ask clinton’s campaign. when, on a conference call, a journalist asked them what experience she actually had that fit into her whole ‘phone call at 3am’ shpiel, there was a long blank pause. then a stammering something or other about endorsements.
yeah, that’s gonna hammer the shit out of mccain. pregnant pauses, that’s the ticket. the stockdale defense! it can’t lose!
chopper
betty ford! now she would have been an awesome president.
tBone
Yes, saying that Hillary fucked up when she voted for the war is “distorting the nature of the AUMF issue.”
Mealy-mouth around it all you want – you can’t polish that turd.
dslak
Looks like the Obama campaign’s going to tie Clinton to McCain, so all bets are off. This really won’t be the end of the world, so long as the loser agrees to get behind the eventual winner/STFU.
Martin
Well, looks like Clinton will scuttle the revote plan (interview from today):
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/03/06/exclusive-interview-clinton-looks-ahead-to-mississippi.html
Tax Analyst
I was just about to make my first EVER campaign contribution tonight. Was gonna write a check to Obama’s for maybe $25. Then I thought, “Is that all this campaign is worth to you? $25?” Anyway, it’s gonna be $100 now, it’s going to be real expensive to put forth the campaign needed offset HRC’s bunch. Initially I was undecided between HRC & Obama – and decided I would be satisfied that both were far superior to anyone the Republicans would nominate and either would do a decent job. I will still vote for HRC should she get the nomination, but the more I see during this campaign the more it appears urgent to me that we do everything we can to make sure Obama is the Democratic Party nominee in November. That’s not all about negativity towards Clinton, Obama has looked like the stronger candidate by far for several months now and has shown us poise, grace, and civility while the Clintonistas have done everything they can to show us their backsides and flip us the bone.
I’m writing the check when I get home tonight.
chopper
well, clinton had to figure that cuddling up to mccain may not end up bearing the fruit she wants to see.
i guess we’ll have to wait and see.
tBone
HELLS YEAH! WHO GIVES A SHIT IF I POP A GRENADE IN THE TRENCH AND MY SQUADMATES GET SPRAYED WITH SHRAPNEL? WAR IS HELL, BITCHES!
p.lukasiak
what does more damage to the party — someone at the top of the ticket who goes down in flames because voters realize that he isn’t prepared to be President, and brings the rest of the party with him? Or someone who points out during the primary season that said person’s prepartion for the job may be sorely lacking?
*********
oh, and while we’re on the subject of “What the Fuck is Wrong with this Woman”…
Obama’s foreign policy advisor called Clinton a “monster”. Now, talk about using right-wing frames that are bad for The Party! I fully expect to see 200 odd posts denouncing Samantha Powers, and demanding that Obama fire her immediately for the good of the Party.
scrutinizer
p.luk, your frequent descents into stupid amaze me. Yes, Obama has to answer the question effectively. That’s not the point here.
The point is that Clinton needs to shut the fuck up about her BFF John. She needs to show that she’s a loyal Democrat, and not just in this for herself. Fine, she wants to be President. That’s no news; she’s been positioning herself for a run for President since the other Clinton won re-election in 1996. But this election isn’t just about her. She has a responsibility to down-ticket races, she has a responsibility to the party not to lose this chance to get rid of the Rethugs, and if she can’t run a responsible Democratic campaign then she needs to either get the fuck out or form Americans for Clinton and start her own party.
That’s the point, p.luk.
AkaDad
If Hillary loses the next two contests, it means that the voters have rejected her odious and dishonest attacks on Barack. She should then do the honorable thing and step aside.
J. Michael Neal
I wanted to read that article about Clinton rejecting a caucus, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the stupid video ad to shut off. I’ve got Painkiller playing on the iTunes, and Judas Priest doesn’t do diet plans.
p.lukasiak
ask clinton’s campaign. when, on a conference call, a journalist asked them what experience she actually had that fit into her whole ‘phone call at 3am’ shpiel, there was a long blank pause. then a stammering something or other about endorsements.
No one ever claimed that Clinton has had a red phone moment. The issue is preparation for that moment. She’s got it. Obama hasn’t.
chopper
so now they’re *against* a do-over? just trying to keep this straight.
wot, no mention of the fact that the dems in florida’s legislature also voted to move the primary? this was a bipartisan cock-up.
scrutinizer
You mean this?
Well, she crawled into bed with him, right? “Only McCain and I have the experience…” “McCain and I have crossed the CinC threshold…” She spun it, she owns it.
And that thing about Dems trying to out Republican Republicans? Yep.
chopper
uh, the question that was asked was what specific experience she has that prepared her for the ‘red phone moment’. you know, what fit in to her whole shpiel that she’s the one who’s really prepared for it.
the answer was silence.
dslak
Not really. The matter’s between Michigan and the DNC. Clinton can complain about it, if she wants, but it’s only going to make her look like a hypocrite.
ThymeZone
Full explanation please. Both Senators. Both lawyers.
How has her experience prepared her while his has not? Specifics, details.
Other than riding in the car with the president, what has “prepared” her better?
Given the fact that she voted for AUMF, what evidence do you have that she was any better prepared for the “moment” than, say, George W. Bush was?
chopper
right on. for some reason people keep forgetting that the presidency isn’t the only office up for grabs this year.
rob!
what creeps me out about these Hillary people is that they seem to be as blindly loyal to the Clintons as the other side are to the Bushes.
they will make every excuse, abide any behavior, in defense of their candidate. i find it truly frightening. this kind of loyalty is no virtue.
scrutinizer
And just how does she have it? What, exactly, prepared Clinton more than Obama for that red phone moment? No generalities about “experience”, please. What specific crises has she faced, what momentous decisions has she made, that would qualify her mor that Obama for that moment?
‘Cause based on the way she’s run her campaign up to now, I gotta say, I’m not really impressed with her skills as an executive.
p.lukasiak
of course its the point. Obama hasn’t answer the question effectively, and has had ample time to do so. Instead of answering the question, he evades it, and changes the subject. Hillary has her answer — she’s represented this country as First Lady, or gone as a sitting senator, to 80 countries — she knows the world. She’s spent four years on the Senate Armed services committee. And she’s dealth with lots of crises while in the public eye.
Obama not only doesn’t have anything close to that kind of experience, he hasn’t even made the necessary effort to hold oversight hearings on NATO, because he’s been too busy running for president. (seriously — that subcommittee could have provided him with some of the bona fides he needs so desperately — but he’s more concrrned with getting to the White House and figuring out what he has to do from that point, than preparing for the job before he gets there.)
AkaDad
On the whole, I’m impressed by the way Obama responds to attacks. One of my early fears was not knowing if he could handle a swift-boating, and since Hillary has obliged, my confidence that he can has solidified.
p.lukasiak
so now they’re against a do-over? just trying to keep this straight.
her statement made it clear that she isn’t opposed to a ‘do over’ in Michigan. A ‘do-over’ is an election, not a caucus where thugs working for Obama can push people out of line who are trying to sign in for Clinton.
She does think that the Florida delegation should be seated without a do-over, but my guess is that she wouldn’t seriously object to another election there is push came to shove.
p.lukasiak
Still waiting for the first denunciation of Samnanha Powers, for saying things that are bad for the Party.
I guess IOKIUARAMUPpet
chopper
what has she faced as first lady that specifically prepares her for the ‘red phone moment’? i mean, laura bush was first lady during 9/11, so is she ready for the red phone too?
traveling to other countries is indeed great, but what specifically has prepared her?
and what crises has she specifically dealt with? get specific, man. when the phone rings at 3 am, is she gonna say ‘dude, i can totally handle this situation, i was on the armed services committee’?
seriously, be specific.
Gus
If the Dems fuck up this election, I will never vote Democratic again. They will have proved they’re too dysfunctional. I’ll throw my vote away on a third party rather than throwing it away on a Democrat.
Asti
My father was a member of the Army Air Corps. He flew over Europe for a few years and ended up topping it off with a trip to the wine cellar at Bertchesgaden.
He took a serving spoon from the dining room too, it had a A and an H on each side of a swastika. We used to serve smashed potatoes with it on Sunday afternoons.
Martin
I thought Rice answered it perfectly – neither of them have the experience for that moment. It’s the perfect answer because it’s the honest one. The only people that have the experience to answer the red phone are people that have already been president. McCain doesn’t have the experience either.
The reason is that nobody knows what will happen on that phone. Is it planes into buildings, earthquake, Turkish troop movements, tsunami, foreign government overthrow? You just can’t be experienced for *everything*. What you need is judgement to handle new situations and new information.
chopper
dude, it’s a bitchy as hell thing to say all right and it’s stupid (and obama’s campaign is gonna get an email from me over it), but it sure as shit aint endorsing the GOP over your own party.
now tell me what specific experience hillary has that ‘prepared her’ for the ‘red phone moment’.
tBone
Stay classy, p.luk.
Andrew
Let’s help paul out a little bit….
Hillary has her answer—she’s represented this country as First Lady, or gone as a sitting senator, to 80 countries—she knows the world. And she voted for war with Iraq. She’s spent four years on the Senate Armed services committee. And she voted for war with Iraq. And she’s dealth with lots of crises while in the public eye. And she voted for war with Iraq.
dslak
Don’t be such a hack, p.luk. Clinton’s found more important things to do, herself.
chopper
i guess michigan is now out of the ‘states that count’ column and into the ‘maybe’ column.
Martin
What Powers said was clearly very wrong and I expect Obama will address it publicly. Missed your early call for a weigh-in on that.
scrutinizer
Do you know how to read? Or are you just evading my point?
Here, I’ll make it easy:
1. Clinton can certainly question Obama’s fitness relative to her own as a potential nominee.
2. Obama needs to be able to respond positively to that question.
3. When Clinton compares Obama unfavorably to McCain, that’s a fucking stupid bush league move that advances Republican talking points, hurts the Democratic Party, and indicates that Clinton is 1) an idiot, 2) doesn’t care about the party, 3) is not interested in any electoral gains that Democrats may make in 2008 if she is not on the ticket, and/or 4), is giving the Repubs ammunition that will not only hurt Obama if he is the nominee, but will rebound against her if she wins the nominations.
Clear?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Analogy #3 (actually, this stuff just about writes itself, so I can’t really take credit):
Back around the time of the Potomac primaries (when the R nomination was still in doubt but closing fast), Mike Huckabee gives a press conference surrounded by a hand picked group of gerontologists in white coats to announce that John McCain is too old to handle the stress of the Presidency. He claims that the office requires a younger, more vigorous person like himself or Barack Obama.
Now if that had happened, would sane Republicans (I know, I know – hold the jokes please) have done the following:
(a) Saluted Mike Huckabee for his toughness in raising an important issue for the general election campaign.
or
(b) Told him to STFU right now or else get drummed out of the party.
ThymeZone
Alas, the McCainites and the Hillarites seem to think that we are choosing a Warrior King, and not a president.
Not an executive who has chosen a good cabinet and good advisors and is prepared to exercise proper civilian executive authority over whatever resources are necessary.
tBone
It was an incredibly stupid, unfair comment and she should never have said it.
Now, I’ll patiently wait for you to denounce Hillary for tacitly endorsing the Republican candidate over a fellow Democrat.
…
chopper
from dslak’s link:
i guess all that experience on the armed services committee has really prepared her to be too busy to answer the red phone.
Conservatively Liberal
Regarding the disemvoweller script, I like mine saying “Baaaa baa baaaaaa! Baaaa baa, BAAAAAA!’, but I have other variations of this for when I get bored. Actually, barnyard sounds makes myiqisthelengthofmypenis finally sound intelligent.
Long ago I said that I would not vote for Hillary, and I still maintain that position. Sorry, but I am not a Democrat, and I do not vote a party line no matter how bad others think I should. Hillary is 20 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag. Her politics suck, her decisions suck, her experience sucks and flat out she just sucks. Contrasting herself against Obama is fine, but holding McCain up as better qualified than Obama crosses the line. No shock there, I expect her to cross it many more times before this is over.
Clintonistas know that the only way she can win now is to have the ‘automatic’ delegates give it to her, and the fact that they are fine with this shows me that they are Democrats in name only. If the ‘automatic’ delegates give this to Hillary, it will be about the most undemocratic thing the Democratic party could ever do. But do her supporters care? Fuck no. Not one iota. But they whine about how they are not being treated fairly and ignore the crap their side has been dishing out almost non-stop. They have their own reality, and I am glad I will never see it or be a part of it.
The Clintonistas do not care about the nation or the party, they only care that their girl ‘wins’ it. I guess it is all in how you define ‘win’, kind of like the definition of ‘is’, right? Obama is in this to win and win honestly. Hillary is in this to win, period. Hillary is the Tonya Harding of politics, nothing is beneath her and she is proving it daily.
Martin
Like Nevada and Oklahoma, right? Is she going to give those delegates up out of principle?
AkaDad
Visiting 80 countries gives her enough experience to be Ambassador to Venezuela.
tBone
Stop distorting the nature of the AUMF issue that Hillary voted for, you drooling MUPpet.
Shygetz
I hadn’t noticed; how’s that been working out for us there, paul?
“Experience at sucking” is nothing to brag about. Along the lines of that whole “I failed at getting health care reform before, so I know what I’m doing” bit.
ThymeZone
Asti
Why yes, of course she will.
dslak
Oklahoma had a primary, actually.
Asti
It’s good to be the king. I hear princes are hoping to one day graduate to such an honor.
myiq2xu
So you have no business in trying to determine who the Democratic nominee should be.
It’s our party, not yours. Butt out.
Andrew
Cha-ching. I’m donating to Obama everytime lukasiak says something fucking retarded. That’s serious cash, just from this thread.
Paul, you’re not even the Joe Klein of Hillary supporters. You’re just a pathetic wannabe Joe Klein of Hillary supporters, but hey, maybe one day she’ll let you write Primary Colors 2: How Hyperbolic Bigots Like Me Managed To Lose The Race By Doing The Republicans Dirty Work For Them.
demimondian
MUPpets don’t drool, Steak. They’re fluffy and fuzzy…and green. At least as far as politics is concerned.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
A plea to HRC partisans:
There is a teeny-weeny, tiny, really very small chance that your candidate may not win the nomination. In which case there will be some explaining to do, after it is over.
If this happens, do you really want 2008 to be remembered as the year when Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani bowed out with more class and dignity than Hillary Clinton?
Asti
myiq2xu
Maybe she will right after you denounce Obama for tacitly endorsing Reagan and expressly criticizing Bill Clinton.
Buck
Conservatively Liberal,
The “pie” theme is funny. Your “Baaaa!” would be funny also.
I’m thinking somewhere down the road I’ll probably tweak it to simply display n o t h i n g…
hehehe
Asti
OMG’osh, Obama gave some honor to a dead president and you’re offended.
As for Bill, I wish he would shut the hell up, and I also wish he’d spent a lot less time rubbing elbows with 41.
tBone
And what’s wrong with that? I’m putting you on the pie list so I don’t have to suffer through any more of your disgustingly ranidaphobic posts.
demimondian
CL — You know what winners call a classy loser?
Loser.
Asti
distorting t-bone? LMAO, WOW!
demimondian
Cha-ching! I got pied! Three years after I first suggested the pie script, I have finally managed to get pied MYSELF!
I like pie!
Andrew
Last I checked, neither Reagan nor Clinton was running for election this cycle.
I wish I was rich enough to contribute to Obama every time myiq says something plain stupid. That would require Warren Buffet money.
p.lukasiak
Oklahoma had a primary, actually.
damn. you beat me to it.
As for Nevada… it turns out that the Obama campaign was too stupid to read ALL the rules. Like the one on page 53, that says the doors close at 11:30, and if people are in line at 11:30, they can participate (and they did), but anyone showing up after 11:30 was not allowed in.
Obama people, based on something that was ambiguous (unless read closely) in another section, though that you could get there anytime before noon. But that was wrong, and and all the bitching and moaning that was done disappeared when the rules were pointed out to Obama’s people.
tBone
Is Bill Clinton running for President this year? Is Zombie Reagan? No? Then, as usual, the point has completely escaped you.
chopper
i didn’t know that reagan and bill clinton were running for president this year. who knew.
and BTW, saying that reagan, despite absolutely horrid policies, managed to change america’s political direction in a manner that bill clinton didn’t accomplish is not ‘tacitly endorsing reagan’, nor is it criticizing bill clinton.
that is unless you think that claiming that clinton wasn’t able to pull america hard to the right like reagan is an insult. and given that the person you’re supporting is endorsing mccain over her own party, that might just be true.
p.lukasiak
If Hillary concedes it will be done graciously and with a lot of class.
Unlike Barry, who has had hissy fits because of an SNL skit, and is telling the press that one week of scrunity is unfair.
AkaDad
You think Hillary will denounce herself for expressly criticizing Bill’s NAFTA deal?
tBone
With a Bill Gates chaser.
chopper
wow, you’d think they’d keep bitching about the rules for weeks after. oh wait, wrong campaign.
Pb
Quite a few of the Democratic state parties disagree. You know, according to those annoying rules that we’ve been operating under the whole time? Well, most of us, anyhow.
demimondian
Actually, Melinda really didn’t chase him.
ThymeZone
What is necessary to get the Hillarites to explain why their candidate is prepared for the “moment?”
All I’m seeing is snark.
scrutinizer
Oh noes! Criticizing Bill Clinton? Who would do such a thing? I mean, Clinton gave us NAFTA; Welfare Reform; the Telecommunications Act (Hello Fox! Hello Clear Channel!); “I never had sexual relations with…(oh, wait–); a failed health care reform plan; increased militarization of federal police, leading to Ruby Ridge and Waco; the Defense of Marriage Act; Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell; throwing the Democratic Party under the bus to triangulate with the Republicans so that he could be re-elected—
and don’t forget, plenty of valuable experience for the other Clinton.
scrutinizer
Dude. We’re Democrats. It’s what we do.
Asti
You may as well face it, that’s all they’ve got. You asked and asked and asked, and they never answered.
chopper
(spits coffee)
that’s awesome!
myiq2xu
I cannot believe he called Lorne Michaels to complain!
How lame is that?
chopper
rules are for suckers.
tBone
My respect for her is intact.
scrutinizer
Can I just denounce her, or do you want me to renounce her too?
Pb
To be fair, Hillary Clinton does have experience answering the phone in the White House personal residence. Here’s one account:
chopper
i thought ruby ridge happened under bush I.
chopper
pretty lame. then again, so’s bringing up an SNL sketch at a political debate to whine about press coverage.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
What, you mean the Canadians are going to do it for her?
Or do you mean like all those graceful concession speeches she’s already given after every primary and caucus that she’s lost by double digit margins? After so much practice, it should be an easy speech to make.
Chris Johnson
And if we were electing a hockey team, that would mean something.
demimondian
Um…scrutinizer? You might want to look kind of…you know…scrutinize your last post. This reference: Ruby Ridge.
Really, dude. Let me help you: look at the date here. August 21, 1992…was before Bill Clinton was even elected President, much less inaugurated.
You might want to learn some facts, dude. The rest of your claims are equally laughable.
ThymeZone
Yesterday, Paul Lukasiak explained that since he could not change my mind, there was no point in explaining things.
I think it was yesterday.
tBone
You’re joking, right?
myiq2xu
Why should non-Democrats have any say in who we nominate? Why should we let them saddle us with an inferior candidate?
chopper
apparently she did call him after he beat her in WI. she’s getting better.
John D.
Dunno. Take it up with the states that do it that way. They get to decide how to select their delegates themselves.
scrutinizer
Unlike that dynamite well-oiled Clinton machine, who effortlessly went into to Texas with a clear idea of the way the primary/caucus system worked.
Oh, wait—
myiq2xu
Nope. He called Michaels to complain.
demimondian
So you’ve provided a lower bound for how much it means for someone to be contending for what is arguably the single most important office on Earth. I kind of think that political struggle is more important than an obscure form of lacrosse played on ice, but…YMMV.
You can’t govern if you can’t win. If you wind up conceding gracefully, then you wind up conceding. Guess what? That means…hmm…oh, I know — conceding IS BAD.
tBone
No, I thought you were joking about believing that.
He didn’t call Michaels to complain – it was a joke. Even BTD managed to choke down his bile long enough to concede that.
ThymeZone
I don’t know, have you called Rush Limbaugh and asked him?
His suggestion was to vote for Hillary. Since Obama’s head-to-head-with-McCain numbers are polling at twice the margin of Hillary’s, I guess Rush is pretty shrewd.
chopper
myiq, you’re an idiot .
Badtux
Rob, I think Hillary would be a better President than Obama, and support her primarily because her health care plan has the potential to actually work (it is largely identical to the Swiss and Dutch plans, which we know work), while Obama’s plan has absolutely no potential to work (he’s been spouting Republican ideology that we can have a free lunch, i.e., universal health care without paying for it, and that doesn’t work in real life).
That said, I utterly deplore her recent comments giving credibility to John McCain as a candidate. You simply do not do that. I have no problem with her smearing Obama with anything she can come up with. You can bet that John McCain will be doing the same, so it’s not as if Obama wouldn’t have to face it some day anyhow. But you don’t tell people that a Republican could be a good President. Not if you’re a Democrat. Your job as a Democrat is to say that the Republican candidate is a vile war-mongering nutcase, not that he is better than a Democrat.
– Badtux the Democratic Penguin
John D.
Um.
You know that Obama was making a joke when he said that, yes?
Jesus, and I thought Republicans were humor deficient.
Asti
Yeah, I heard Texas even had a bunch of Republicans voting in their primary. With primaries that make Rush Limbaugh have a wet dream, what’s a few independents among friends?
Martin
You seriously expect every voter to read page 53?
Besides, who gives a shit? Clinton won that caucus. Or do you want a do-over? Oh, right. No do-overs. We seat the delegates even when we break the rules… Well, that settles that. What’s next?
zzyzx
Just to clarify one thing, a “caucus” in MI would be like the one in NM. Secret ballot, 6 hours or so time period to vote, drop off your ballot and you’re done. The main difference between that and a primary is that the DNC would be paying for it.
Asti
If her ideas are so good, how come they didn’t get enacted during th LAST Clinton administration?
AkaDad
My sources tell me that Hillary is now on the short list for McCain’s Vice President.
Pb
myiq2xu,
Because they vote in the general, for one.
LOL. The candidate that will do best in the general will be the superior candidate. Thus, closed primaries seem more likely to select a candidate that will not ultimately win over the middle. Duh. But, again, all that is up to the state parties.
Incidentally, there are a lot of progressive independents out there — about 40% of the liberals in the party, which is one of the most reliable Democratic voting blocs out there.
ThymeZone
We’re heading into the sixteenth year of her reign as Queen of Healthcare, and after all that time and eight years in the White House, we have nothing to show for it, and stonewall opposition that has become an industry.
What is the basis for thinking she will do better given a second chance? Or a third chance if we don’t have to overlook her senate career?
ThymeZone
We’re heading into the sixteenth year of her reign as Queen of Healthcare, and after all that time and eight years in the White House, we have nothing to show for it, and stonewall opposition that has become an industry.
What is the basis for thinking she will do better given a second chance? Or a third chance if we don’t have to overlook her senate career?
Pb
What did she call him this time?
demimondian
Because of a set of advertisements called the “Harry and Louise advertisements”. You know, a set of distortions that the MUP decided to parrot?
But, I know, MUPpets aren’t constrained by facts. They create their own, unlike us “reality based” types.
ThymeZone
I don’t know why that posted twice, but I blame myiq.
scrutinizer
Damn. I was wrong. Bad on me.
(See how easy that was? It’s a shame Clinton couldn’t say that about her AUMF vote.)
Eh?
All that other stuff was wrong? We didn’t get NAFTA; Welfare Reform; the Telecommunications Act (Hello Fox! Hello Clear Channel!); “I never had sexual relations with…(oh, wait—); a failed health care reform plan; increased militarization of federal police, leading to
Ruby Ridge andWaco; the Defense of Marriage Act; Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell; throwing the Democratic Party under the bus to triangulate with the Republicans so that he could be re-elected—- under Clinton?Musta been some other guy named Clinton, then. But if you’re right, I guess that the other Clinton didn’t get all that experience after all.
chopper
hey now, we have SCHIP. she was a big force behind that.
of course, the whole health care debacle of the 90’s would have gone a hell of a lot better if the clintons would have thought that something like SCHIP was a good start, rather than a consolation prize.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Chopper – nothing personal here, just asking:
was that phone call before, or after her campaign tried to play chicken with networks over the timing of Obama’s speech in Houston vs. her speech in Ohio, the same speech where she had a local guy warm up the crowd by telling them that the Obama supporters are all a bunch of latte-drinking elitist scum, and then Hillary went on to give her standard stump speech without so much as mentioning Wisconsin at all.
Is that the baseline we’re using for “graceful” and “concession”? Cause I’m just a peon so I don’t get to sit in on those high-level phone calls. I have to make do with the stuff on the TV. And what I heard that night wasn’t very pretty. If that is what counts as improvement, then I predict we’ll land an astronaut on Mars before Hillary gives a graceful concession speech to us, the voters.
demimondian
Um, no, moron, we didn’t get NAFTA from Clinton; we got it from Bush I. Remember Perot and the “great sucking sound”? Given that you’d already claimed something led to something else, when the SOMETHING ELSE had already happened, you have this ordering problem with your causal chain. (Those are big words for calling you a fool. You aren’t expected to understand them.) Throwing the Democratic Party under the bus? Um, want to go look at the vote counts for Democratic candidates? The 1994 election wasn’t about triangulation, bs-man.
ThymeZone
Clever, but way wrong. It was a set of distortions for which the Clintons had no answer, no effective response. They sat on their (voice of Bubba) “ah feel yure pain” rhetoric and let the opposition define the question and build a wall of opposition on the Hill. They played right into the hands of the organized opposition to reform and created a black hole of political viability from which we have still not emerged.
Sorry, Barack Obama is not our healthcare problem, the Clintons are. They overreached, failed to prepare for the onslaught of opposition, and sat by while the whole initiative went into the toilet.
tBone
You know, I couldn’t agree more.
AkaDad
To be fair to Hillary, she does have foreign policy experience with China and Wal-Mart.
chopper
because the clintons made two big mistakes.
first off, they assumed that their win in 1992 was a huge mandate that gave them all the political capital that would be necessary to overhaul the entire US healthcare system at once. bad idea. it would have been much, much smarter to change such a massive system incrementally.
second, they wrote a bill that was classic clinton, i.e. it tried to please everyone. so it ended up being a huge bureaucratic mess and even democratic support started to wither.
mrmobi
When one of the Democratic contenders starts pimping an aged rageaholic Party of Torture member as more qualified than the other Democratic contender, anyone can get in on that clusterfuck. Who says she’s a Democrat, anyway?
Hillary should be drummed out of the party. She is busily proceeding to ensure a Republican victory in November.
Luckily for all of us, Obama is going to win this thing. True, he’s had a rough week, but the kind of scorched earth campaign Hillary is running now isn’t going to be sustainable. I’m ashamed for her, and sad. I thought she was a better person than this. It looks to me like she really, really admires Karl Rove.
Chris Johnson
Demi- I don’t believe you are a troll. That said, you emphasize the great importance of the Presidency, but seem to have absolutely no interest in the light this appalling behavior sheds on the character of the very person you want to put there.
My remark about ‘and if this was a hockey game, that would mean something’ was not intended to imply that people should become cheese-eating surrender-monkeys.
It was to imply that ‘yah, I’ll kick your ass by fair means or foul, no matter how low I have to sink, and then you’ll lose and I laugh at your idealistic failure’ is an absolute disqualification for the President of the United States this time around. It spells doom for us and our country. We are inheriting too much damage to carry on that way.
Obama can win the presidency by refusing to sink that low. Your assumption that he who takes the lowest road wins is wrong. It’s got a certain amount of truth, it’s had its day, but it’s not the only factor and you’re wrong to be still pursuing it. Your girl will end up the despotic ruler of a smoking crater, immobilized by the hatred of absolutely everybody.
Quit that stuff, we need better than that.
chopper
the 1996 presidential election was. ‘run to the right’ as it were.
demimondian
TZ, your willful misreading would be stunning in its audacity if it weren’t so stunning in its mendacity.
Cast your mind back, if you still can, to 1993. Clinton had run expecting to confront healthcare in his first year in office, but between a threatened coup d’etat over gays in the military and the need to, like, rescue the budget from the catastrophic situation that the previous administration had let it in, found himself busy the first year of the session. Now, gosh, in the second year, he was confronted by a series of scandals which tied the House Democrats up, and, then in November of the year, was confronted by the loss of both houses of Congress to the Republican Party.
Somewhere along the line, Health Care didn’t get passed. Now, I wonder why that was? Because Clinton actually tried to do things in a reasonable order? Because he believed — and succeeded in — getting things done? Nah. Couldn’t be.
Andrew
Um, demi, before you go and moraninate someone, you should be aware that the treaty was not ratified until 1993, after Clinton pressured Congress.
demimondian
If Obama can’t beat this, then he can’t beat McCain. Fact. Simple fact.
He may be able to win without going stridently negative. He cannot win if he face plants when confronted with stridently negative campaigning. He has to show the he either knows, or can learn, how to handle it, or I do not want him nominated.
ThymeZone
Uh huh. In other words, he wasn’t ready to lead. He made flowery speeches but couldn’t deliver any public support for his centerpiece healthcare reforms. He never bothered to make sure the public understood the issues and never bothered to give people reasons and rationales to get behind the reforms. He let Harry and Louise, proxies for the big moneyed interests, set the pace and define the problem set.
He fucked it up, bad, and his wife was no help at all.
If you need a two-word explanation of why we still have no real reform 15 years later, here it is: Bill Clinton.
demimondian
Yes — but that doesn’t change the truth of my statement, or the falsehood of scrutinizer’s.
Pb
Dick Morris and Mark Penn, baby! More of Hillary’s experience and judgment at work there.
demimondian
Like I said, TZ, you epitomize the audacity of mendacity.
He was ready to lead, and he led. He handled the crises of the moment — while being repeatedly betrayed by the party in Congress — and then, when he would have been attacking the most important issue of his term, was without a majority in either house. He chose things where he could lead there, then, too.
scrutinizer
NAFTA? NAFTA was negotiated by BUSH I and signed in December 1992, but was not ratified. Clinton made it a major legislative push for it in 1993, and it passed the House and Senate in November 1993 with a majority of House and Senate Democrats voting against it—so yeah, I’d say that Clinton gave us NAFTA. Not all his, certainly, but he rammed ratification through, in the face of opposition from members of his own party.
Throwing the party under the bus? Nothing to do with the 94 elections, I never said it was. But it had everything to do with his own re-election in 96, which is the point. And the point of triangulation, which was to out-Republican the Republicans. By throwing the Party (or at least the Party platform) under the bus. Or are you conveniently forgetting wefare reform, DOMA, tax cuts—? Nothing wrong with the causal chain there, sweetie.
catatonia
So John Kerry went up the Mekong Riv and picked off the gookers, slaughtered ’em with his bare hands. But, because some fey ass in another boat DIDN’T see that (and because Kerry was six feet away from Jane Fonda when medals or veterans or something were bein’ pitched into the Reflecting Pool by fags, hags, and the tremulous insouciants of the 60s professoriate), that meant Kerry was NOT C-in-C material. Especially in comparison to the Wielder of the Codpiece, the Steel-Eyed Titan of the Flight Deck who, while Kerry was going all Anton Chugarth on the VC (or a reasonable facimilie: hard to see in the jungle and all), was biding his time in the ANG, giving exemplary service to his Nation by goin’ AWOL, beer in hand and coke in nostril, and staying away from anything that he could possibly f**k up. Pity it couldn’t stay that way …
Fast forward from the Band-Aid binge when the rethugs squatted in Gotham four years ago, to the current commedia dell’arte of the humbled flyboy squaring the jingo circle with the woman whose Village she said it Took, which she now seems to want to Burn.
Observe Johnny, whose unimpeachable military experience was “wet-starting” his A4-E just before a fire killed 130 of his shipmates on the USS Forrestal — and it would be …. IRRESPONSIBLE … not to think the two were connected, wuddn’t be? — followed by being shot down, for the FIFTH time, and …
oh, this is the awkward part: he was tortured as a POW.
Well, that’s horrible. That’s also not a qualification to be president. If your resume starts off with “I endured torture” and that supposed to close the deal on the Presidential Seal, then by golly, we got a lot of presidential timber marinating down in Gitmo, and in 15 or 20 years, they should be ready to assume their duties (if we can just get them off their allah jones … huh, “allah jones”: sounds like a character out of a Curtis Mayfield song).
Then we have Hil, calling us up at 3 AM to remind us that the Vil will only be safe if she’s at the Til. Or, if not her, McCain — who is, after all, “experienced.” And what is his experience? DeNiro in the cage in “The Deer Hunter.” Schist, why don’t we all just play Russian Roulette, preferably with leeches crawling up our leg. Hey, Matthews, grab ahold!
God, I’m sick of all this crap. I’m sick of phantom phones phantomly ringing at phantom 3 AMs. I’m sick of posturing for commander-in-chief like so many giggling girls goin’ after the homecoming crown. Sick of the spectacle of a half-assed mayor assuming the role of Defender of Homeland Faith just because a camera caught him walking down a Manhattan street, wet dishcloth in hand, on a nasty, sunny, frightening day in September a few years back. Fed the fug up with despotic cretins whose conception of reality and civil society starts and ends with the manifold ignorances passed down from sun-crazed nomads three thousand years ago. Tired, tired, weary beyond tired, of harebrained schemes like Operation Desert Freedom, which can only be discussed realistically if at first there’s a consensus on its sheer lunacy.
I’m not particularly enthralled with Obama. But at least he’s, at the most, peripheral to the stink-show that’s been going on recently.
ThymeZone
Wow. Everything and everybody to blame, but the Clintons. Those poor folks, so misunderstood and so noble.
And all I can say is, Clinton is very lucky you are not her spokesman. I have never heard such a whiny and pathetic load of excuses and crap in my life.
Shorter you: That big bad Dem congress wouldn’t pass the noble Clinton’s healthcare reforms. Those bastards! Those rotten bastards! They stole our dream!
I’ve heard it all now.
demimondian
Um, Screwloosenizer? Clinton did the responsible thing in 95 and onward. He worked to get things done, rather than pulling a “I’m going to pout and stamp my feet to feed the freak wing of the party” like a certain smirking chimp has done?
Or are you really as convinced of the superiority of the GWBush governmental model? You certainly seem to have his love of facts…as things to trample underfoot.
demimondian
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Poor TZ — can’t stand to deal with facts when they’re relayed to him.
Hear that? It’s the sound of the world’s smallest violin playing “My Heart Cries For You”.
Martin
I don’t care about her acknowledging him. I thought it was tasteless to not acknowledge the voters, donors, volunteers and people of each of those states. If I had just busted by ass canvassing for her and she couldn’t even bother to drop 3 seconds in a speech to thank me as part of the collective, I’d have been pissed.
myiq2xu
You’re wasting your time Demi. TZ is a self-admitted spoof, and “spoof” is representative of most of the commenters here.
They think Obama is good, Hillary is bad, and facts are useful only if they support those ideas.
They can praise Obama for reaching across the aisle in the spirit of bipartisanship (or post-partisanship) and with the next breath slam Hillary (or Bill) for compromising with the GOP.
Everything Obama does is right, everything she does (or has done) is wrong.
They will shift their arguments from moment to moment, ignore any evidence you present, and engage in all manner of fallacious (and fellatious) logic.
If all else fails (including personal insults) they will simply disappear for a while and reappear later acting like nothing was ever discussed.
You’ve been here longer than me. Have you ever seen them budge one inch?
My favorites are the commenters who seem to appear out of thin air to announce thet they were undecided but because Hillary did X, they can never ever vote for her. Then they vanish again.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I’ll give the shorter version:
Hillary has turned into Nixon reincarnated.
Now Nixon wasn’t the worst Prez we’ve ever had. He and his team could run competance circles around GWB. But he was competant at ratfucking people too – a gift that is still giving, even today 30+ years later (can you say: Dick Cheney). If we elect Hillary, people in 2040 will still be cursing us for the blind stupid idiots that we are, for gifting them with the progeny of Mark Penn and co.
Martin
Harry and Louise didn’t kill it. Moynihan did – you know, the seat that Hillary won. He killed it because he thought it was the wrong solution. The Clintons didn’t include their own party in shaping the plan.
And the ad was to remind us that we’ve tried this exercise once before.
ThymeZone
You’re weird, man. I am talking about one of the biggest failures in modern presidential history, and you are talking about violins.
Hillary Clinton can’t apparently lead her own campaign to the easy victory she had in her grasp without alienating half the Democratic party. She tried to ride the healthcare mule for six months until people started to stop and think, hey, why don’t we have this? Who screwed the pooch?
According to you, it was just about anyone within 50 miles of the District, just not him.
Callisto
You know she acknowledges the voters! She busts her ass EVERY SINGLE DAY for them. Unlike Obama, she understands the meaning of a “hard day’s work.”
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
The only thing more depressing than the last 7 years of GWB, is the thought that now 40 years later we Democrats are getting in our own primary season a do-over of the 1968 election if RFK had lived, and almost half of the party want to choose Nixon over RFK.
Badtux
The question of whether Hillary could actually get her health plan passed or not, or get it passed in a reasonable fashion without watering it down to satisfy special interests, is a good one. The question of whether the plan itself is workable if passed, on the other hand, is not — we have the Swiss and Dutch to thank for her plan, and it works for them.
As for Obama he hasn’t even produced a credible plan, so (shrug). Okay, so I’m a single-issue voter.
One thing I will say — either of these two people would be a 1,000,000,000% improvement upon either Bush Jr. or John “Bomb Iran” McCain, Dear Leader’s best bud ‘n’ pal. In the end, I will be voting for the “D” on the ticket this fall. Sanity is underrated, and the Republicans have shown these past seven years that sanity ain’t somethin’ they have in spades nowdays…
scrutinizer
Demigloss-
Actually, I have a lot of respect for Clinton as a politician. I just think that Clinton was for Clinton first, and for the Democratic agenda whenever it was convenient. No, he wasn’t Chimpy. But he did swing to the right whenever it was to his advantage. I’m not sure that he handled the Lewinsky thing right, though. Seems to me that, after his denials of involvement with her, if he had resigned after the blue dress fiasco and Gore had taken over, we wouldn’t be as fucked up as we are now.
But no doubt that would have been “losing”, and that would have been a bad thing, right?
myiq2xu
I’ve said before that Bill wasn’t ready to be President when he first took office. I voted for him in 1992 and 1996. But he didn’t have enough experience when he was first elected and that had a lot to do with the problems he had during his first term.
But he learned. Hillary was there for both terms, and she has been in Washington DC since then. That’s experience.
Obama was in Illinois until 2005 and has spent most of his time as a Senator running for President.
ThymeZone
You really are remarkably bad at this, aren’t you? I have never spoofed here, never said I spoofed here. Not once in three years.
I am a persona. Has nothing to do with spoofing. A persona is a character. A spoof is representing views and positions that are not his own, literally spoofing another point of view. I don’t spoof. No good at it.
Every opinion I lay down here is the actual opinion of my creator, Saint Bernard, as I call him.
About 20-30% of commenters here at one time or another are spoofed to one degree or another. That is not “most” commenters.
Try to pay attention.
ThymeZone
What a hoot. That’s “first lady” experience. That’s all.
Since when does that qualify anyone to be president?
ThymeZone
Did he now? Learned what?
Can you point to the American citizen today whose healthcare access is better or cheaper than it was when he was sworn in? Besides Hillary, I mean?
I’m going to bed. You aren’t serious, you’re just goofing around.
AkaDad
I’m concerned that Obama may have plagiarized Hillary. Hillary was demanding Rick Lazio release his tax records during their Senate run.
myiq2xu
Yes, Master Yoda.
Being there and seeing how things are done is experience, even if you aren’t the one making the decisions. Even her failed healthcare reform was experience.
As my grandma used to say:
“Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.”
scrutinizer
Why does Hillary having lived in Washington since 92 give her the experience to be President? Having been the President’s wife isn’t a policy position, an elective office, or an executive position. Has she ever managed anything other than her well-oiled, flawless campaign? What experience has she had as an executive anything? Obama has been in elected public office longer than Hillary. How can you say she has more experience as a legislator than he does? What experience has she had even in the failed healthcare reform program she ran under Bill? If she contributed so much to policy decisions, why won’t the Clintons make those notes and proceedings public?
ThymeZone
Uh right, but that’s life experience. We all have that.
Clinton’s life experience doesn’t qualify her to be president. Helluva lawyer, maybe.
Ted
You know that’s deductible, right?
j/k
scrutinizer
Last week I watched someone load fluorescent dye and trehalose into a cell culture using endocytosis. Does that mean that I have enough experience to culture a cell line and do that myself?
TenguPhule
At this point I’d keep all my options open.
The courts don’t work.
Congress doesn’t work.
The law has become ‘one for thee, none for me’.
Anarchy doesn’t seem so bad in comparison anymore.
We’ll find out in 5 months.
Ted
Jonah, is that you?
“Yes, but that is central to my point.”
Asti
Awesome post, and I agree.
Ted
Demi’s finally completing the journey to Darrellism. Childish name-calling and other tantrum-related silliness. Demi? I think you really are ready for the pie.
myiq? Can you, and incidentally, several other regular posters here, look up the fucking word “spoof” please? A spoof is a parody. A sarcastic and often exaggerated depiction of something. Someone saying something you don’t like or find contradictory, however accurately, is not “spoof”.
Now if you’d like to suggest that “most of the commenters here” are in fact parody trolls of some sort, go ahead. But don’t be shocked if you’re regarded as linguistically retarded for doing so.
Asti
Shorter NoIQ: “We are such victims in this game”.
Grow the fuck up, and then tell me how Obama’s campaign and supporters are supposed to act when Hillary chooses a man who wants to bomb Iran as the only other viable candidate? Does Hillary want to bomb Iran too? Hmmmm, if she feels so strongly about McCain, perhaps she really does.
Asti
In NoIQ’s world, the interstate highways are painted purple and bridges are made out of Lego blocks too.
TenguPhule
myiq2xu is going to be very experienced when this is all over.
Jim
Of all the misconceptions, distorted reasoning and plain ol’ bullshit that’s been flung this campaign season, the “Hillary has more experience than Obama” claptrap is the biggest howler. It simply is not true, period. The only advantage Hillary’s time as First Lady gave her is she knows her way around the East Wing. Period, end of story. If anything else were true, you’d see reams of evidence flung out from her time as First Lady. Guess what, nothing, nada, zippo. She’s had 7 years as a legislator to Obama’s 10, they have both been lawyers. She’s 14 years older, big friggin deal. He’s every bit as qualified, including on national security and foreign policy issues, and he isn’t a polarizing figure that unites Republicans. This shouldn’t be an easy decision, but there are lots of dumber than dirt people out there, and its just too bad that they aren’t all Republicans.
Singularity
MyIQ, so far I have seen you engage in ad hominem attacks, false accusations, lying, and a number of other dishonest or disingeuous tactics. You accuse Obama’s team of whining incessantly. And yet, when I look at the statements above, I see nothing but whines. When I see a number of Obama supporters here call you out on your lies about the Canada/NAFTA affair, you change the subject. Honestly, I see you engaging in exactly the behaviors of which you accuse Obama supporters. How on Earth do you think you can convince anyone to come to your side when you are so mendacious and foolish? I was already an Obama supporter who was willing to vote for Clinton if she should win the nomination. I’ve voted a straight Democratic ticket since I was 18. I voted for Dukakis, Clinton (twice), Gore and Kerry. But for the first time in my adult life, I will leave the Presidential election line blank on my general election ballot if Hillary Clinton is the nominee. And you were the one who convinced me. Congratulations.
You really should stop hurting your preferred candidate with your terrible debating skills. Every vote matters, after all.
Ted
I’d bet money he/she votes for McCain if Hillary loses the nomination. After all, that MUP!!1!1!! can’t even dress himself.
myiq2xu
Somebody must have spiked the kool-aid
Asti
Yeah, you know what they say about posting drunk NoIQ, you should lay off the sauce.
TenguPhule
Personally, I think trying to put a good word for McCain in the same slam on Obama in a DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY has got to rank up there as one of the stupidest things ever.
You’re not helping your case by defending this, either. I don’t mind the two contenders fighting it out. I do mind when either one gives the McCoward ammunition. Mock the Pony all you want, but keep it in-house. You fuck us all over on the general election and your ass is grass.
Asti
Yup!
Me too!
Oooooh! That’s gotta hurt. I can’t say NoIQ is the reason why I won’t vote for Hillary, but, he certainly does contribute to my distaste for her candidacy.
I couldn’t agree more.
Ted
Like MyIQ’s preferred candidate, he/she doesn’t give a damn.
Asti
You know, NoIQ, I put one very intelligently worded question right next to one childishly snarkesh fun post and you chose to go after the childish, while completely ignoring the intelligently worded question… so I will give you one more chance and pose it to you one more time:
myiq2xu
Shit. I’m already very experienced. I’m down to my 5th choice in this election. In Presidential elections I’m 4-3, but two of those wins were Reagan. I haven’t picked a WH winner since 1996, unless you count Gore.
So far I haven’t lost on a Clinton.
Asti
That’s too bad, I’m on my first. I sort of flirted with Edwards, but never considered him a truly viable candidate.
empty
Maybe not. But you have more experience then me – someone who has never seen this. Look, the MUP has the right argument when he says experience is not much use when it does not lead to the right decision. Your attempts to claim that Hillary Clinton does not have relevant experience is just plain dumb.
myiq2xu
Fuck you. Every single part of your statement is false. You don’t know me and you don’t have the right to talk to me like that.
myiq2xu
I didn’t start out supporting Hillary but the lies and smears from the Obama fanbois pushed me into it after my preferred candidates dropped out.
So fuck you too
Asti
Actually, it’s not false at all, but, you just go right on ahead and keep doing what you’re doing, because you are not fooling people on this blog at all. I couldn’t ask for a better posterchild of the Clinton campaign.
Asti
And you luvz you some Hillary. Talk about spoof!
Asti
Okay, NoIQ, I’ve posed the question about Hillary’s preference for Mr bomb Iran and you have refused to answer twice, so I’m officially going to just chalk up a big fat goose egg for you on that score, okay? You failed to answer an important question regarding your candidate. Thanks for playing, please come again!
Tax Analyst
HAR! Yer kiddin’ me, ain’t cha’, sonny?
What’s funny is my brain is so fried out on tax crap I caught myself nodding my head for a moment…I talk to so many Tax Preparer’s every day who don’t know Schedule A from their anus. I really find some of them very scary and I feel sorry for their clients. I try to steer them in the right direction, but there’s not a whole lot you can do for a tax preparer who doesn’t know how to review the 2nd page of a 1040.
But this is a thread about competence and leadership skills or the relative lack thereof of the potential candidates for the COC position, and I already said what I had to say.
But WTF…I’ll add this. Personally I have no axe to grind against Hillary Clinton. I was prepared to enthusiastically support her, but her campaign strategy has been woefully short-sighted and is starting give me this uneasy “wow, she could really end up losing to John McCain” feeling that totally took me off her wagon. There is a serious problem with basing the foundation of your candidacy on your “Experience” in the Chief Executive’s Office when your role in that experience was as an un-elected, non-accountable advisor or confidant. Did she learn some things by being there? Probably…it’s obviously true she was more politically involved than other first ladies, but to me that’s a lot less relevant than laying out a vision for our future. We hear a lot about how hard she would work and I must say I don’t doubt for a minute that she would work very, very hard – she’s certainly not an uninvolved, lazy, jackass like Dubyah and I’m pretty sure she would be at least competent. I just think Obama has the potential to be more than that, and that there is less chance of him losing the John McCain.
Oh..and if my boss is reading this, I really do love ALL our customer’s – I do…really, and I’m really, really just kidding about how stupid some of them seem to be.
Brachiator
It doesn’t matter that Senator Clinton was wrong on Iraq. She has finally hit her stride, damaging Obama with negative attacks, and now finding a way to sell herself with fantasy images that are as empty, vacuous, but persuasive as Dubaya’s “Mission Accomplished” BS.
She is appealing to people who buy her nonsense that she will turn the country around and bring back the Clinton years. It doesn’t matter that her claims of experience are bogus. It doesn’t matter that she is an inauthentic feminist. Her supporters don’t care if she asks Bill’s advice or even if she frankly asks him what she should do. They are sold on the idea that you always get 2 Clintons for the price of one, and which one actually is in control is a minor detail. And on top of it all, you get the cherry on top of a woman president.
Note how absolutely giddy NY Times columnist and Clinton supporter Gail Collins has become now that Senator Clinton appears to have gained the upper hand (Hillary’s Edge):
Another NY Times columnist follows up by driving the point home (falsely, I believe) that the economy and the promise of Hillary-care is more important than Iraq (The Anxiety Election):
Collins is Cheerleader Number One for Hillary, while Krugman follows through with the notion that it doesn’t matter whether Senator Clinton was wrong on Iraq or demonstrated poor judgment. The photo op with military men only reinforces the possibility that Clinton could even promise to stay in Iraq for 100 years, and still be able to seal the deal on the Democratic Party nomination.
Going negative will not by itself give Obama a leg up. He might look lame trying to assemble his own group of military men (kinda like Dukakis in the tank looking like Alfred E Neumann). He has already proven his bona fides with respect to Iraq. He has to sell voters on the idea that he will do better with respect to the economy.
Similarly, it may be hard for Obama to shake people loose from the romance novel fantasy of Hillary Clinton as a strong, powerful woman president, with her husband lovingly at her side, always supporting her and ready to offer advice when needed, but always her best friend, adviser and loving soul mate.
But he can perhaps get the press to work as his surrogates on the empty idea that Clinton has a lifetime of experience qualifying her for the White House, and he needs to find a way to capitalize on the the weakness behind Senator Clinton’s gambit of linking herself to McCain as the Experience ponies. If he can find a way to continue to present himself as The Alternative with respect to the economy as well as Iraq, he can kill two birds with one stone.
Ted
Hmm, the full Darrell breakdown.
Hart Williams
From my friend Mac McFadden, who says it better (and more elegantly) than I can:
Yeah. Experience is everything.
Anticorium
Remember when that Obama supporter on MSNBC stammered and that proved Obama was unfit to lead? Man, good times. That was back when people cared about American presidential candidates making secret back-channel calls to Canadian government officials to give them a heads-up they were going to lie in the Ohio debates, wasn’t it?
D-Chance.
Mr Cole, I can’t believe you don’t see the no-lose scenario she’s setting up for herself. Either she wins the nomination and heads into the general elections… or she loses the nomination but makes sure she can kick her campaign back into gear on 01/21/09. If Obama wins, she’s out of the picture until 2016, and that’s not acceptable for her.
John S.
Now I’ve seen the height of convolution.
A troll giving a spoof advice on how to handle a persona while dismissing everyone else as fake.
That’s some heady shit.
Huntly
Not sure it AkaDad was being flip, but from the speeches it sure sounds like Clinton is vying for the VP slot with McCain if she doesn’t get the nomination. Not sure how realistic that is, but it doesn’t seem too far out into tin-foil hat territory.
gypsy howell
I have nothing to add (unless no one has said “Hillary Sucks”), but I just wanted to get in on this Balloon Juice 400+ comment action.
John S.
Josh Marshall gets it:
Got that, everyone? Hillary Clinton is a joke right now. Stop treating her silliness as if it were serious stuff, and start treating it like the only place it has any merit is on the set of SNL.
cleek
she’s saying this to drive Obama down compared to McCain so that she’ll become the obvious choice of the Super-Delegates: make him seem like a risky choice and make herself seem prudent decision. that’s all this is.
oh, and lest i forget: Hillary, fuck you. i’ll never vote for you now.
4tehlulz
If that’s the case, if the superdelegates do that, they are incredibly fucking stupid. Why should she get rewarded for inoculating McCain from criticism about his qualifications to be C-in-C?
cleek
i agree. and it helps McCain, so maybe she plans to cede the war experience issue to him, without even so much as a fight. i think Clinton’s incredibly stupid to play it this way. but, then again i think she’s incredibly stupid for a lot of other things, too.
PeterJ
She’s not just giving McCain an attack on Obama, she’s also giving democrats voting for Clinton now an excuse for jumping over the fence and voting for McCain instead of Obama in the general election.
How will she be able to campaign for Obama after this?
(And don’t even think of bringing up the idea about a ticket with both of them…)
She and her husband are screwed. Either Obama wins it all and she won’t get a chance, not in 2008 and not in 2016. Or McCain wins and she ends up being hated by republicans and democrats alike.
PeterJ
Wilfred
She’s counting on the voters, especially Democratic ones, being stupid. She figures ‘do anything’, say anything’, fuck anyone’ as long as it gets her the nomination. The count on people forgetting all that and turning to her instead of McCain.
Not me.
George Johnston
What Earthly value is there to contest McCain’s military experience?
No value at all… that’s why “swiftboating” is not part of our political jargon.
Did McCain wetstart his jet causing the fire that killed over 100 American sailors? He won’t admit it, of course. I wish I could fund a Forrestal Veterans for Truth committee.
p.lukasiak
Marshall has been OD’ing on MUP fairy dust for weeks now… he’s lost all perspective; he’s like Cole, only on Thorazine.
Anticorium
For those playing along at home, “lost all perspective” is a local dialect for “stopped believing in the supercompetent Hillary Clinton, who only uses concentrated ninja-trained hypersleep from 2:12am to 2:59am just in case a phone call arrives, and who feels that if you can’t vote Clinton for president, you can at least vote for a Republican”.
Callisto
there’s a balloon juice home game? awesome!
hey, i pulled the ‘chance’ card. it says that i’m playing myiq now and i need to drink a bottle of scotch.
Xenos
Not to be the Josh Marshall fanboi, but he has been pointing out the sleazy behaviour of Clinton surrogates and officials for some time. That is not MUP fantasy, that is a critique based on facts. One might not agree, but it is not kool aid drinking
cleek
for one, you can ask if his military experience (which is now 40 years in the past) is relevant to the job of being President today – especially since he’s been dead wrong about all matters military during those 40 years.
Pb
ROFL! I guess you’re an expert on that, eh?
dslak
A claim that so-and-so is biased only works in cases where their argument somehow relies upon their authority. A person’s point isn’t refuted by pointing out their biases. P.luk has no problem citing Taylor Marsh, but nobody’s under any illusion of where her loyalties lie. That doesn’t make any praise of Clinton or criticism she might have of Obama automatically false.
John S.
LOL, that’s utter bullshit, Paul and you know it.
Even though Greg Sargent has been in the tank for Hillary for quite some time now, and David Kurtz has a fairly obvious Obama bias, Marshall has been extremely fair to both candidates. In fact, his overall coverage has been exemplary as has Steve Benen’s.
Quit your whining and get back to spinning.
4tehlulz
Crap. I have to Go to Jail. Now I have to roll a six on the Die of Eights to get out.
sparky
McCain + Clinton: Perfectly Wrong! Together at Last!
Who can beat 75 years of wrong? Well if I understand the Hilbots’ arguments (presence in WH = experience), GWB, since he’s also been in the WH for 7 years. Therefore he’s the most experienced candidate! Maybe he can be her veep.
cleek
hadn’t heard much about this, but apparently the DNC is nearly broke:
that can’t be a good thing
Callisto
i’m more frightened of ray’s manboobs, to be fair.
PK
I am planning to change my party affiliation from independent to democrat for the upcoming Pennsylvania primary, just to vote for Obama. Till last week it was for me a no brainer that I was voting for the democratic candidate whoever it was. But now I don’t think I can vote for Hillary if she somehow gets the nomination.
McCain will damage the country, probably beyond repair if he is elected and Hillary is doing her best to help him to the white house.
She is proving herself to be completely unprincipled and desperate for the nomination. I think she is seeing defeat and completely losing sight of the bigger picture of what this election is all about.
I honestly do not think I will be able to vote for her in November. If I am beginning to feel this way, I wonder how many democrats and independents feel this way, and I am by no means a die hard Obama fan.
I think it is time some sane people in the democratic party step in and stop the Clinton’s divisive tactics before the damage is irreversible.
chopper
wha, achewood? who’s talkin achewood?!
cleek
i’m with you. i was ready to switch from Dem to independent until Obama showed up. now i’m looking forward to being able to vote for him in a primary that might actually matter (NC). and Sullivan posts at least one reader email each day saying similar things (of course he’s waaayyyy over the top with his Hillary bashing, so he attracts anti-Hillary readers).
but, she’s just too much: too personally ambitious, too mercenary, too self-centered. and based on campaign’s tactics, i’m getting a strong feeling that i’d be unable to defend a lot of the things she’d do as President. she’s the opposite of inspiring.
John S.
And that means they cannot pay for do-overs in MI and FL. Caucuses are far cheaper, but we all know the official Hillary line on those…
But hey, since it’s so obvious that Hillary is in it
to win itfor herself, why not persuade the DNC to go $30 million in debt to help her pull within 90 delegates of Obama?chopper
well, both candidates can offer to chip in equal amounts to finance a primary in MI. i dunno the logistics of that tho.
Pb
No biggie either way — NC has an open primary.
SGEW
Good heavens, y’all! Amp down th’ intensity, k? Just wanted to throw a few l’il points out into this interminable thread:
1) Please do not turn Baloon Juice into a “No Clinton Zone”: I can get that elsewhere. I’ve read this blog (and its commentators) for many years now, and I keep coming back in order to read a variety of viewpoints on important issues. Disagreement is essential to democracy, right? So I hope that this whole tempest (and certain intemperate posters) will not quash any potential dissenting opinions. For instance:
2) Sen. Clinton (despite the many faults one can lay at her door) is a legitimate candidate for the Democratic Party’s nomination for POTUS, and has several qualifications that can be objectively praised. Especially when compared to Sen. McCain on so-called “progressive” policies (health care, choice, environmental regulations, militarism (yes, there is a difference between voting for the A.U.M.F. out of political calculation and fantasizing about being in Iraq for 10,000 years), and wealth distribution come to mind). There are many Americans who earnestly support her who are not out and out shitheads – give ’em some respect, ok? Mind you:
3) I have already pledged my support for Sen. Obama (i.e., I already voted for him in my primary and have volunteered for his campaign). However, I readily acknowledge his faults and disappointments as a politician (Example: Samantha Powers needs to keep her mouth shut in front of journalists, and Obama seriously needs to keep a shorter leash on his advisors). Claims of “MUPpeting” are not automatically invalid. Pointing out confirmation bias can be legitimate, and I have personally benefited from having it done to me over the years. However:
4) This (viz. #3, above) applies to certain Clinton supporters as well.
Of course, I, personally, am not fond of unjustified insults, ad hominem attacks, name-calling, or frothing screeds, and I have lodged my objections to such before. So this is all my personal preference.
But come on, y’all. Pretty soon half of the commentators here will be “pieing” anyone who supports Sen. Clinton in any way whatsoever, and this place will turn into an MUP-TalkLeft equivalent or something.
Grand Moff Texan
OK, I’ll say it:
Bitch just crossed the line.
She’s threatening to take the party down in 2008 if they don’t back her.
.
jcricket
Yep – isn’t the echo chamber AWESOME!
We can say without question that John can post whatever we want, and we can all post whatever we want, but I can also agree with you that putting more and more litmus tests on what gets accepted v. shouted down in the comment threads is a way to make this place pretty lame.
tBone
Hello, kettle, this is the pot: you’re black.
Well, you did claim that Obama called Lorne Michaels to complain about the SNL skit – that’s clearly a false accusation (or lying, if you already knew it wasn’t true). So the bolded part of your quote above is, itself, false.
Andrew
I don’t think anyone here disagrees. Our problem is with her campaign advisors and her batshit crazy supporters who are clearly willing to tear down other Democrats in order to get elected. There is no Obama equivalent to Mark Penn. There is no Obama equivalent to Hillaryis44. These folks are willing to run a 50%+1 campaign and end the 50 state strategy and give up local and congressional support.
quickdraw
Racist! The pot and the kettle were obvious victims of Photoshop filtering!
John S.
Your concerns are duly noted, but when demimondian’s spoofing looks almost identical to regular comments by myiq2xu or p.lukasiak, something is wrong.
jcricket is probably the closest thing to a sane Hillary supporter around here, and in this thread I don’t see too much wholehearted defense of her latest tactics.
tBone
This is the one of the primary reasons I want Obama to get the nomination instead of Clinton. This has the potential to be a major realignment year, if we don’t fuck it up.
For the long-term viability of the Democratic Party, the idiotic DLC electoral calculus has to be staked through the heart, beheaded, sprinkled with garlic and holy water, and thrown on a pyre. And then the ashes should be placed into 50 individual weighted waterproof capsules and dumped into the deepest ocean trenches around the world.
chopper
of course she is. obama’s not the one saying that mccain would be a better candidate than the other democrat in the race. nobody that i’ve seen is saying she’s somehow illegitimate.
Rob
Hillary Clinton is a snake. Evidently she will say/do anything–ANYTHING–to secure the nomination. Even if that means tearing down the Dem party, indeed, tearing down the world, if that were required. In 2003, 1000s, perhaps tens of 1000s, of her constituents (of whom I am one) wrote/called imploring her not to cede war-making powers to the Chimp. Of course we all know what she did–and did it, we now know, without so much as opening the NIE.
HRC enabled the biggest and bloodiest foreign-policy mistake the US has made since Vietnam. This make her (nad McCain) a national sceurity expert?!?
If so, god save us from the in-experts.
jcricket
Nope. But I’m also not as frothy about it as y’all. Some of it bugs me (if that darkening thing were true I’d be really, really mad). I also understand why any attacks, even where they “fair”, would royally piss you off. But I guess what I’m seeing just doesn’t get me as riled up, partially because I don’t view Clinton’s actions through the same prism as y’all seem to. I suspect they’re not viewed as badly, or won’t be in the longer term, by the general populace. They’re certainly not viewed as poorly by the 12 million+ of Hillary supporters (who include a larger number of “independents” and “moderates” that you seem willing to admit, based on local and national polling. Some of this will, of course, depend on what happens when the nominee is decided (if Clinton or Obama signs on as VP or campaigns actively or passively for the other).
Secondly, everyone here also seems to think the current round of attacks are gonna give Republicans enough fodder to destroy the Democrats, but all the historical parallels I’ve seen seem to argue otherwise (see Kevin Drum). Feel free to argue otherwise, but I haven’t seen a substantive refutation yet – just a lot of hypotheses.
I am also having the same general reaction Kevin Drum and Atrios are having right now vis a vis the vitriol it’s creating amongst the hardcore supporters on both sides. I think both candidates are really good, and differ, in reality, less than it’s currently being presented – an artifact of where we are in the campaign. I’ll quote Atrios:
(Emphasis added). If the starting point is that I’m basically deluded, stupid and primarily interested in supporting someone who wants to “tear the party apart” – what’s there to debate?
Andrew
The starting point is that you’re aligned with people like lukasiak and the hillaryis44 crowd, and they are clearly deluded and have said a lot of batshit insane stuff about hating obama and how everyone opposed to hillary is a misogynist troll.
I am for most of hillary’s policy positions; indeed, they are very similar to Obama’s. I may even like some of her policies more. So the question is: Is a marginal improvement on policy positions more important than being wrong on Iraq, using the Mark Penn sleaze machine, and reducing the national viability of the party?
Andrew
Also, I would welcome an intelligent analysis of how Hillary’s strength among working class whites is important for winning Ohio and Pennsylvania versus McCain, or how her strength with Hispanics may help in the Southwest. I do not welcome lukasiak and penn and others telling us that all but two of obama’s states don’t count.
John S.
I’d recommend not lumping everyone who supports Obama together. Would you like to be judged by the average position that y’all Hillary supporters take around here?
Just sayin’.
OniHanzo
There’s only one way to throw your support behind Obama if you’ve already participated in your state’s caucus/primary and you’re still angry at Hillary’s shenanigans.
Donate whatever you can.
See to it that MUP has enough money to shut her down in ad buys, etc.
Because all the aggressive histrionics from folks like myiq and pluk are meant to do is distract you from what needs doing. It’s exactly the signal vs. noise ratio that helped kneepcap Kerry in ’04.
postmodernprimate
myiq2xu Says: “Hillary was there for both terms, and she has been in Washington DC since then. That’s experience.”
Not bad. But I’d feel much better if we had nominated White House Executive Pastry Chef Roland Mesnier who has been there for EIGHT terms under five different Presidents. He’s got to be on any short list for VP.
Hypatia
This discussion is getting classier by the minute.
I await further comments on HRC’s ‘shrill voice,’ ‘ambition,’ and ‘calculation’ and the irrelevance of all Presidents’ wives.
jcricket
And there you have it. TTFN. HAND.
jcricket
You’re absolutely right, all Obama supporters are not the same, that’s very fair to say. But, as I said on another thread, the din (see my last post) of “all Hillary supporters are Hillaryis44.com nutballs) is quite loud.
I’d fully agree that Hillary isn’t well represented by a number of sane supporters on this board, but to argue that it’s similar across the board just won’t fly with me, based on who I know and the other conversations I have.
And viewing my thoughts about the subject v. the din and other Clinton supporters actions here, it’s just not worth a sane HRC supporter’s time to bother offering refutations or affirmative arguments. You can call this giving up, but there’s a time and a place to bother convincing people you’re right, and this isn’t either.
John S.
How many other presidents’ wives ran for office on the grounds that their role as First Lady gave them political experience?
John S.
It’s all a matter of perspective, I guess.
I see plenty of instances where Obama folks ask rather specific and fair questions of Clinton supporters, only to get some sort of silly canned response that includes the term ‘MUPpet’ or derides the questioner as being sprinkled in fairy dust.
I would suggest you focus on the people looking to have a real discussion rather than those looking to hurl firebombs.
4tehlulz
That would destroy the essence of the Internet. Why do you hate the Internet?
Rick Taylor
I’m beginning to wonder what is wrong Taylor Marsh?. We make fun of the sort of adulation Obama inspires, but I’m seeing the same sort of thing on her side. I used to really like reading her, but recently it’s started to become unreadable; Obama can do no right, Hillary no wrong. Samantha Powers resigns from his campaign, and she says, bah, if he had any class he would have fired her. Nothing’s good enough. It’s just bizarre.
I find that talkleft is a fair-minded blogger who strongly supports Hillary, and depend more upon him now.
chopper
(spits coffee)
PeterJ
Fair-minded as in deleting comments they don’t approve of and banning users? Turning off comments when they no longer can monitor them?
(BTW, talk-left isn’t just one guy)
Chris Johnson
No, that’s the trouble. There isn’t. Motivation doesn’t really matter, in practice. It REALLY doesn’t matter if Hillary deplores the death and destruction and ruin of our standing as a country in world opinion, if she takes actions to worsen all that.
I don’t care if she cries herself to sleep in despair at the terrible things politics ‘forces’ her to do in order to be confident of winning. Leaders set the tone. They establish how things are done.
There is NO difference between her doing terrible things through mistrust of the (sometimes alarming) American people, and doing terrible things because she’s a psycho and wants to drink the blood of Arab babies.
What is she going to DO, sitting there surrounded by generals and flags and endorsing McCain?
I really, really, REALLY don’t care if she means well.
Hypatia
(BTW, talk-left isn’t just one guy)
I moderate part time at a site that is unrelated to politics, and we don’t allow any four letter words and everyone falls over backward to be polite. If a thread on a contentious issue gets what we consider to be out of hand, we close off the comments. There are people who take this as an assault on free speech, but it’s our custom to keep things as civil as possible and we don’t have all day to tell people to keep a lid on it. I don’t mean to suggest that all sites everywhere should do that, but my point is that different sites take different views as to what’s acceptable and what isn’t, and some moderate more closely than others. (I can’t speak to the situation on TalkLeft, which I do read but not every day.)
She is only giving those Democrats an excuse if they are looking for one. Clinton and Obama are both diametrically opposed to McCain on a number of crucial political and social issues. I support HRC, but if she loses, even in a way I consider less than fair, I would never under any circumstances support McCain or consider staying home in November. I’m sure there are Obama supporters who think the same way. I speak only for myself, obviously, but I don’t think I’m alone out there.
Brachiator
Great example, and one that actually subverts Senator Clinton’s claims to experience and qualification. Ms Roosevelt had real, tangible achievements independent of her husband during his presidency, but never claimed that she was co-president or had passed the magical Commander-in-Chief test.
One wonders then, by what criteria Senator Clinton can lay claim to presidential experience by virtue of being in proximity to her husband.
Easily done. I agree that crap about “shrill” and “ambition,” and “calculation” are nonsense, but note in passing that Team Clinton earlier tried to mock Obama’s supposed elementary school “ambition” to be president.
But yeah, presidents’ wives are, or generally should be irrelevant (as well as presidents’ kids) since there is a danger here of slipping into the idea of a hereditary presidency. By the way, I blame Bush more for this, since his supporters softened up the voters to the spurious idea of “experience via osmosis.”
So by comparison, we now have Senator Clinton implying that she has more substantial qualifications for the office of the presidency than the VP or any cabinet official.
It’s also interesting that neither the media, nor pundits, nor bloggers want to re-visit the example of Edith Wilson, who effectively (and without authority) served as president during Woodrow Wilson’s incapacity due to a stroke.
As an aside, some people (yes, including some women Clinton supporters) want to try to have it both ways, wanting a woman to be president, but giving preference to the president’s wife as his natural heir.
But if you know a little presidential history, you find that one woman who might more easily qualify as demonstrating presidential abilities was Theodore Roosevelt’s sister, Anna Roosevelt Cowles (Bamie Roosevelt)
PeterJ
Hypatia, the moderating over at TalkLeft seem to be about a lot more than civility.
How would Clinton lose in a less than fair way?
Also, is there actually a fair way for her to win?