Watching Terry McAuliffe try to bullshit his way into getting Michigan and Florida to count makes it crystal clear that the people behind Hillary are really, when it boils down to it, no better than many in the Bush administration.
The damage he did to the party should not be forgotten.
*** Update ***
During Huckabee’s concession speech, it appeared to me that he is really enjoying himself, which is kind of sick. He is starting to look like the Mayor in BTVS. I mean, no one enjoys this crap. And anyone who does has to be evil. Like the mayor.
rob!
–people behind Hillary are really, when it boils down to it, no better than many in the Bush administration–
watching Hillary’s crew spread their B.S. these last few months have made me realize hearing someone lie to me feels just as bad–worse, even–even if it comes from people whose goals i generally agree with.
taodon
Is it too early to suggest that Sen HRClinton is somehow connected to the same Illuminati faction that put President GWBush into power?
Martin
NAFTAgate took Obama out in Ohio if the exits are correct. Her strongest support is ‘decided 3 days ago’. Oh well. That’s a tough lesson for Obama to get their info and message straight. Fumbling the denial/confirmation really cost him.
Cyrus
Since this is an open thread, this is as good a place as any to ask: Are there any other Vermonters around here?
Not that our primary is that interesting, considering how it seems such a given for Obama. Some media called it for him the minute the polls closed. (Well, some called it for him by noon, probably, but you know what I mean.)
Xenos
Not from Vermont, but in the neighborhood (Western Mass). If either Clinton or Obama have been campaigning in Vermont, none of it made the news around here. Did Clinton even try to get votes in Vermont? It sounds like a dead heat everywhere else, so a strong Obama victory in VT seems to be the story of the night.
Jorge
McCainacrats. That’s what Hillary is creating.
Delia
In 2004 I spent hours precinct walking and phone banking for Kerry, even though I had only recently moved to Oregon. If Hillary manages to make herself the nominee, I’ll hold my nose and vote for her because four more years of Bush policy is just too ghastly to contemplate. But I just can’t bring myself to work for her campaign on any level. Not after her display of gooper campaign tactics.
Splitting Image
I have no real problem with trying to broker a deal to get Michigan and Florida seated, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.
There was a right way and a wrong way to do the wiretapping thing too, which I guess is the point.
(Texas is currently 58-41 for Obama. Come on now…, bring it home.)
Cyrus
I don’t really disagree with this, but I feel the need to defend the Democratic Party, just in case she gets the nomination. Call me partisan and earnest. Even if she and her administration would be every bit as bad as the Bush administration — which I really doubt — there’s no way the Democratic base and Congressmen would be as eager to support and defend her as the Republican base and Congressional delegation have been to defend Bush.
It’s almost weird to talk about politics with people who aren’t political geeks like us. They have their preferences between Obama and Clinton, but it generally seems like they would be happy enough to support the other if he or she got the nomination. Crazy, I know!
Cyrus
I’ve seen signs on lawns and stuff for both candidates, but definitely more for Obama. Obama has bought quite a few radio ads. I haven’t noticed ads for Hillary in any media, but that doesn’t prove anything, since I don’t watch TV and (usually) change the radio station when ad breaks start. However, Chelsea Clinton came to Vermont for a campaign event a few days ago, so there was that.
Buck
MSNBC/Hardball just reported that McCain will be heading to the WH tomorrow to get Bush’s (very public) endorsement.
As Olbermann just asked, what happened with staying the hell away from such a failed presidency? Weren’t all repub contenders to avoid Bush like the plague?
Fwiffo
There was some Hillary surrogate on MSNBC just now talking about the 3am commercial and she brought up “security moms” and then had the temerity to bring up the Beslan incident in Russia. Which is the same thing used in those sick Club for Growth ads against John Kerry in 2004.
I never really have been much of a Hillary hater, but I am now.
Billy K
waiting in line at Dallas caucus. Maybe 400 people? No way we can all fit in the room they have. Not sure what were doing. They are woefully underprepared.
demimondian
Actually, it’s Penn and McAuliffe who convinced me to support Obama. I strongly prefer her policies on domestic issues, and they’re really a wash on international issues, but…I can’t stomach the people she’s surrounded herself with.
Chuck Butcher
What Terry McAuliff did to DNC represents why I dislike Hillary. It’s taken a lot of work to Dean-ify the Party. Take a look at the DNC under Terry and understand who exactly is represented by people like him … and his candidate – Hillary.
p.a.
Agreed. If Hillary does pull out the nomination I’ll hold my nose in November and vote for her, but I think all she’ll really do the rest of the primary season is muck up the works- delegate challenges, caucus shenanigans, super delagate intrigue- all the while weakening Obama and providing the Rethuglicans ammo.
t jasper parnell
If HRC wins the election, I predict that BHO works his butt off to get her elected and suggest all and sundry do the same.
t jasper parnell
I meant, of course, nomination.
The Other Steve
We’ll see when the final tally comes, but CNN was giving some exit polling. They said of non-union voters, it was split 50/50. Of union voters, clinton was ahead 54/46. But they noted non-union voters in ohio account for 2/3rds of the electorate. So if those numbers carry out, Clinton may win Ohio but it’s only going to be by like 52/48. They showed some similar polling for people who thought the economy mattered, and again it was pretty tight.
Considering Obama was behind by 20-30 points only a month ago, that’s a pretty fantastic performance and I don’t think the ad helped Hillary at all.
mantis
Speaking of being just like the Bush administration, fake news!
The Other Steve
Quite honestly, if HRC gets the nomination I shall stay home. I may vote by absentee, but I won’t be enthusiastic.
The Other Steve
Strike that. I can’t deal with 4 more years of this shit. If Clinton wins the nomination, I’m moving to Russia. At least they’re mostly honest about rigging elections.
SGEW
I heartily disagree (depending, naturally on what one means by “many” in the Administration: Including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington, Yoo, etc? Or just the lackeys and incompetent yes-men?).
Way back in 2000 (favorite quote from GYWO, regarding the many years of the Bush Administration: “Goddamn. Has it only been years??”), I was adamantly against the candidacy of George W. Bush, mainly because of the toxicity of his chief advisors (again, see Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington, etc.). I believed then (and events have borne out my prognosis) that these men were not to be trusted with the levers of power, because they were literally evil. I have seen no one in the Clinton camp that matches this level of outright malignancy. Incompetence and dishonesty, may be, but not straight-up cartoon-villain-like malevolence.
No?
jake
Well, let’s see how long this thread lasts before the concern trolls poop all over it. (Shaddup)
No shit. And what happened to staying away from people who’ve already stabbed you in the back, kicked you in the junk and spat in your face? If he wants to indulge in his humiliation fetish, he should do it in the privacy of the Lincoln bedroom.
Maybe I’m just a revenge-crazed Islahomobamaist, but if I were in McCane’s orthopaedic shoes, I’d avoid Bush because the guy shat all over me. Kissing up to him makes McCane look weak, stupid and makes everyone assume he’s caught Bush’s Cooties o’ Fail.
Does Camp Straight Talk Express Bus to Oblivion really think a majority of Americans want four more years of that shit?
over_educated
Well, it looks like Obama is going to have a good night in Texas, and have a not-to-bad night in Ohio. Although I think the chances of Hillary dropping out of the race are about nil if she takes Ohio. I think it is going to require garlic and a stake to get her out of this race.
t jasper parnell
This exit poll I find odd. Obama does better amongst liberals and conservatives. That is some magical unity
On most political matters, do you consider yourself:
Category % Total Clinton Obama
Liberal 41 49 50
Moderate 46 53 46
Conservative 13 46 53
t jasper parnell
Well, that wasn’t very helpful, how bout this?
On most political matters, do you consider yourself:
Category % Total Clinton Obama
Liberal 41 49 50
Moderate 46 53 46
Conservative 13 46 53
t jasper parnell
fiddlesticks
The Other Steve
That does not surprise me in the least. What surprised me in other exit polls was Clinton don’t best amongst liberals.
p.lukasiak
current exit poll numbers (based on gender breakdowns)
Ohio Clinton up 3.3%
Texas Clinton up 1.4%
Rhode Island Clinton up by 4.1%
Vermont is that really a state? ;-)
PatricioMas
Madame Huckabee looks like she’s about to cry.
zzyzx
Boo, RI called.
If the numbers in so far are early voting, I don’t know if a 1.4% lead in exit voting will do much.
SGEW
Yet you list Rhode Island?!?
Not to rag on ya or nothin’. Jest sayin’.
t jasper parnell
A final note, sans charts, for those of you staying home and holding your noses etc; do you honestly think that Clinton will be worse that Mccain’s reign of more war, more tax cuts, semi-privitized Social Security, economic ignorance, close connections with lobbyists, while denying he’s ever met one, embrace of Hagee, torture pandering, and related whatnotery?
jake
OT: Bush just fucked Uribe 4Evarz.
Will he send military aid to make sure the shipments of coke keep coming? Will Canada take advantage of the fact that the rest of our military is away, invade the US and make us into socialist eaters of funny bacon?
The Other Steve
One thing to note is that exit polling this year has been notoriously unreliable.
The Other Steve
McCain isn’t going to try to micro-target me by attacking Grand Theft Auto.
So it’s a real toss up.
Tom in Texas
NBC is calling RI for Hillary.
SGEW
One thing to say in McCain’s defense: I honestly believe that he will end torture as a national policy (if he becomes President – he has not done shit to end it as a Senator). Perhaps I’m naive (believing that someone who has been literally tortured would not actively pursue the same techniques once he has executive authority), but I kind of actually believe this.
Sen. Clinton? I have no reason to be so assured.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Hillary endorses McCain:
In party political terms, this is treason, pure and simple. There is no way to explain this away, no amount of spin that can excuse this.
It is the very last straw for me. I’ve been a lifelong Democrat. I’ve voted in every presidential election since 1980. I’m not naive about hardball politics – I have vivid memories of the 1972 contest, compared with which this year’s edition is a church picnic. But now, as far as I’m concerned, the Clintons can go F**K themselves. They deserve to be frog-marched out of the Democratic Party and thrown on the ash-heap of history. If Hillary is the nominee in November, I will be voting for McCain. In a purple state. As ye reap, so shall ye sow.
TR
Same here.
But I’m still going to punch McAuliffe, Penn and Wolfson in their nutsacks for being such unbelievable sacks of shit.
ThymeZone
Is Huckabee ever going to shut the fuck up?
p.lukasiak
Barack Obama sued to keep polls open late in Cleveland.
rather than express my own personal outrage at such outrageous tactic, I’ll just let all those who would be having a hissy fit if Clinton sued over anything express their contempt for what Obama has done.
PeterJ
Clinton has already stopped her 2008 campaign. She’s now running for 2012.
ThymeZone
I have to say, even for her, this is pretty awful.
Every Democrat should be outraged by this gaffe.
firebrand
What boggles my mind is that there are people surprised Hillary would sell out Barack Obama to John McCain just to win the nomination. It’s like they have this temporary insanity thing going on that would allow them to be surprised at something like that.
Also, if HRC does manage to steal the nomination away from Obama, on election day I plan to write-in my vote for Barack Obama. I refuse to vote either for McCain or Hillary, plain and simple.
cleek
i’m right there with ya
libarbarian
Heretic.
Seriously though, I agree. That was his campaigns first real mess-up and,so far at least, it seems relatively minor.
I guess its possible they could make more of it and it could metastasize. Maybe its just that Im not a big fan of protectionism and think it was somewhat reasonable to not want the Canadians to think an Obama admin was going to screw them economically.
John S.
For what reason?
p.lukasiak
If BHO wins the nod, I think that the Clintons would best serve the party and Obama’s candidacy by concentrating on getting more Democrats in Congress and State Houses.
Mostly because the media loves to hate on Hill and Bill so much, the slightest miscue from either of them, if they are speaking on behalf of Obama, will be blown up completely out of proportion, interfering with BHO’s ability to get his own message out.
SGEW
Really? If Sen. Clinton had done such an action, I would probably be fully supportive, and I’ve already declared my support for Sen. Obama (NY voter). Every vote counts, etc.
Of course, I’ve paid my dues workin’ th’ polls, so maybe I’m biased (Keep the polls open, you mofos! Voters are voters! High turnout rates are good for Democracy! etc. etc.). Is this really “outrageous”?
F
John,
Please STFU on Hillary, enough already!!!!!!!!!!!
You’ve become a version of the Queen’s Bitch site, if I wanted an All Day Every Day Hillary Hate I would go over to the original more prolific version.
The country is in that crap that its in because of you and your ilks support of the Republicans; you supported a party while they persecuted and finally prosecuted a president for a crime which 90% of people put in the same position would have committed. You supported that same party when they nominated a former coke head, frat boy with absolutely no record of achievement other than winning the luck sperm lottery. You supported them while they lead us into a horrific war which has taken thousands of lives while costing trillons of dollars. You supported them up until they reached your breaking point (Schivo) which for the rest of us was about 15 years too late.
And as your support is what emboldened the Republicans to achieve their current level of criminality, you don’t have the right to compare anyone to the Bush administration.
p.lukasiak
not sure, but the weather has sucked there for the better part of the day (snow and ice, etc.) so it may be weather related.
ntr Fausto Carmona
It was raining ice all afternoon and early evening up here along the shoreline. Driving home was a #####, which is why I’m glad I voted in the morning.
Jen
Well, I do. I’ve never voted for a Republican. I loathe her more every day, and I don’t think I could ever vote for her. God help us, this thing is going to drag on. I don’t think I can take it. Good thing my mint has come back to life ’cause it’s mojito time for the next, uh, several months.
Dennis - SGMM
He asked the courts to extend voting hours in three Ohio counties because the precincts were running out of Democratic ballots and would require time to get resupplied.
p.lukasiak
Real states have more than 23 delegates! ;-)
Jen
Vermont doesn’t count because Ben and Jerry are there, and they’re both men, duh.
jcricket
How is what she’s doing stealing? Dirty pool? Maybe. But stealing? Are all the citizens voting for Hillary just lying that they’d prefer her to Obama? Is she in league with Diebold?
I don’t particularly like some of the people Hillary has surrounded herself with, and I’m not thrilled with all of her campaign so far, but I just don’t get the outrage coming from the left about Hillary. Scratch that, I get it, I just think it’s really disproportional to the actual “offenses” and is merely a result of excitement for Obama leading to being overly judgmental of the other candidate.
I also think it’s foolish if anyone votes McCain, writes in Hillary, votes Nader or stays home if Obama isn’t the nominee. You’re welcome to do that, but excuse me if I say a big hearty FUCK YOU to you in that situation. If you think that will make the party “come around” to your way of thinking, you obviously haven’t been paying attention recently.
I for one plan to enthusiastically support Obama if he’s the nominee, the same way I will enthusiastically support Hillary, or would have Edwards or Dodd or whomever. And if any of them disappointed me once in office, I’d chastise them and try to lobby them to live up to their promises, or come over to my side of thinking or whatever – but in no circumstances would I vote Republican, stay home or do a protest vote. That’s just fucking stupid.
w vincentz
Jake,
Your question (OT), “Will he send military aid to make sure the shipments of coke keep coming?”
I heard the smirking chimp state in his little south lawn puppet show today that the “narco-terrorists” will be defeated when there are markets for their products and they enjoy the benefits of liberty.
So….where exactly is all that cocaine being sold despite the best efforts of the DEA? Follow up…isn’t the opium crop in Afghanistan setting up for a record harvest?
Now…back to the Hillary/Terry topic. IMHO, they should both bow out now before they destroy the Dem party and hand the Refugs another four years of pResidenty, with all the inherent consequences. No, I won’t vote for her. I’ll go with Ralph.
p.lukasiak
He asked the courts to extend voting hours in three Ohio counties because the precincts were running out of Democratic ballots and would require time to get resupplied.
are the entire counties being kept open, or just the affected precincts?
(and considering how bad the weather was, imagine how many would have run out if it was a pleasant day! Seriously, after all the screw-ups in Ohio, you’d think they’d at least have enough ballots on hand…or some way of alerting someone before they run out!)
ThymeZone
I for one am outraged and disgusted that Brunhildary did not bother … lift a pudgy finger … to seek an extension of voting hours at locations where the polls ran out of ballots.
She obviously cares nothing about the voice of the people. She is not fit to be the nominee.
SGEW
Yow. That’s pretty telling about your views on monogamy. Tell your wife I said hi.
Well, he was Governor of Texas. Won his re-election there, too. Didn’t fuck up the state nearly as bad as he could have. It’s fair enough to say that counts as an achievement of some kind. And an executive position is often seen as a better prerequisite for the White House than a legislative one.
Please note: I am (probably) as anti-Bush as you are. So I’m being purposely contrarian (in my way). But, please: nothing you have said takes away Mr. Cole’s right to criticize Sen. Clinton’s candidacy in such a way.
demimondian
It’s not so clear, Paul — it could be that resupply is delayed by the roads.
jcricket
If Obama has the nod, I think p. is right – Hillary needs to become a non-issue and fast. She should get her supporters to turn out for Obama, but otherwise concentrate on down-ticket races. I’m not so much of a Hillary supporter that I’m blind to the potential in that situation for her to become a liability.
Again, that said, Obamaniacs should stop fucking discounting all the millions of people that have voted for Hillary, lest they want those people to disappear come general election day.
If Hillary gets the nod, she should do anything in her power to get Obama to be her VP. I personally think that ticket would be unstoppable, despite the, ahem, non-representative sampling of people in this comment thread that would argue otherwise.
I also fully expect Obama to support her, whether or not he was interested in being VP, if she were the nominee.
libarbarian
Bullshit. Those of us who once fell for the crap see more clearly than anyone exactly what really is wrong with them.
The Democrat version of the “25%ers” might think they can act just like Bush and still achieve good results because they have noble motives (unlike the inherently evil Republicans) but they are fooling themselves.
crw
Well, this particular fumble wont affect the general election, because McCain is unabashedly free trade. But I disagree that this is ‘relatively minor.’ This was exactly the kind of unforced error that fuels the Republican slime machine. This is the number one way they go after Democrats – find seeming contradictions (which are really just nuance, but try explaining that in a captivating 30 second spot) and hammer them to sew seeds of doubt. Then let the Swiftboaters loose, confident that you’ve created enough doubt (and gotten the target out of people’s in group) so that the slime sticks. Obama needs to see this shit coming and preferably hit the Republicans before they have a chance to use it.
firebrand
Oh, and as far as how the Canadians tried to derail the Obama campaign is concerned, this sums things up quite nicely for me:
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
With all their beady little eyes,
And flappin’ heads so full of lies,
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
We need to form a full assault
It’s Canada’s fault!
…
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
It seems that everything’s gone wrong
Since Canada came along!
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
They’re not even a real country, anyway!
…
ThymeZone
My God, these McCain speeches are terrible, brain-hurting experiences.
We’ll beat him no matter who wins our nomination. This pompous I Love Amurrica, Violent Turrists Hate Us bullshit is going to wear mighty thin by …. August.
Good god, somebody get this asshole a speechwriter.
ThymeZone
Is McCain actually a B-movie character? Who in the world says this shit?
I just shake my head every time I hear this crap.
John Cole
I didn’t say a thing about Hillary, moron. Christ, you hyper-sensitive twats.
Reality Based Snark
No. By then it will go Retro and be cool again. They managed to do it for every other fucking election since 9/11.
jcricket
You vote with the ballots you have. Not the ballots you wish you had.
The Other Steve
Yeah, but he was the kind of guy you could have a beer with.
Ok, granted, he had had a lot of practice having beers and was kind of known as a mean drunk. But that’s not the point. The point was that you would want to drink.
And man, Bush has really followed thrown on that one. The country was on it’s way from beer to hard vodka, until the value of the dollar fell through the floor and the price of vodka went through the roof.
Now we’ve pretty much resorted to drinking Boones Farm wine with Bush.
p.lukasiak
Texas early voting total are up.
Obama 459,798 (51.26%)
Clinton 422,478 (47.10%)
those are incomplete returns… new numbers just came in…
Obama 481,328 (49.61%)
Clinton 472,598 (48.71%)
gonna be a long night… same page now has Clinton up on the poll cast vote 49.29% to 48.93% less than 3000 votes out of over 1,000,000 counted so far)
The Other Steve
sexist!
crw
Agreed. But I also hope they lend their expertise to him (behind the scenes of course) in some of the finer points of winning against the Republican Slime Machine. As I said in another thread, I think this bare knuckles facet of campaigning is something team Clinton has a much better handle on than team Obama.
The Other Steve
He has been endorsed by Arnold and Stallone.
Dennis - SGMM
Not sure. It sounded as though the orders to extend voting hours were by city rather than by precinct.
p.lukasiak
oops… the last number cited were total votes, not just poll cast votes.
empty
God TZ, you really are a slow learner aren’t you. I heard the same crap in ’04 from people who just couldn’t see how war hero,articulate John Kerry could not beat Texas Airman, barely coherent GWB. I think the dems stand a good chance of winning. If they don’t fall for the same BS triumphalism again.
The Other Steve
$20 on the table. Hillary Clinton drops out tomorrow.
Whose in? Let’s get a betting poll going. I vote for a 10am eastern time announcement.
cleek
i’ll take that bet.
cleek
… put me down for: Hillary stays till NC
F
Jen,
Fine don’t vote for her that is your right, but what I’m tired of is the bitching and moaning about her methods, you would think she invented the every dirty trick in the book by the complaints which are posted.
Hillary is playing by the tactics which were established a long time ago by people a hell of a lot more cold blooded than she is and I hope all of these posters who are quick to point the finger remember who invented a lot of these tactics and who they were originally used against; her and her husband.
People, its a campaign for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States, and in my opinion Hillary (and Obama) have every right (and duty) to do any and all legal activity to try and win the nomination.
So please STFU with the bitching and moaning.
ThymeZone
Uh, no, actually, Im not, but thanks for asking.
This is not 04. McCain is boring, too old, a fearmonger, a terrible speaker, pompous, stuck in the past, hasn’t had an original idea in his life.
I’m a slow learner? Four years since 04 and you think the issues and dynamics are comparable?
I’m the slow learner?
Jen
You’re nuts. I’m in.
jake
Why stop at two?
empty
Yes.
Michael
Anyone see this:
Comedy Stop: What Would Alex Keaton Do?
It is kind of funny. Gary David Goldberg, the creator of the sitcom Family Ties imagines what the grown up young Republican Alex Keaton (played by Michael J. Fox) would be doing in this election.
ThymeZone
You’re an idiot. The political dynamics are totally different. The economy alone puts the Dem in the White House. The war puts the Dem in the White House.
McCain is the worst GOP candidate I have ever seen for president, and that includes Bob Dole, and Nixon 1960.
Jesus, the stupid crap you have to wade through in here, it hurts.
demimondian
Clinton is in until Puerto Rico. At least. And maybe until the convention.
Michael
Does anyone else see a similarity between a grown up and disenchanted Alex P. Keaton and our host and proprietor of Balloon-juice?
empty
Lost your Depends again, have you?
demimondian
Well, TZ, I can certainly understand how you consider yourself a legendary expositor of stupid shit.
jcricket
I think this will really hurt him (the bolded part). Have you seen his speeches? Rambling monologues about being sober/serious, sacrifice, etc. The anti-Obama, as far as speeches go. Hell, even Hillary inspires a lot more enthusiasm with her speeches, and I don’t think her oratory is her best characteristic.
But let’s not forget the polls that show both Dem candidates ahead of McCain, but not by huge margins. There’s a lot of ground to cover between now and November, and as Obama has proven, leads can evaporate. I have significant confidence in the Dems, mostly because of circumstances on the ground right now, but I wouldn’t “bet my life on a Dem WH win” just yet.
maxbaer (not the original)
There are those who would like it not to be.
prince roy
@John Cole:
if you’re saying that her people are no better than those of the Bush administration, then do you still plan to vote for her in the general if she wins the nomination? If so, why?
I made up my mind long ago that I will vote Democrat if BO wins, but under no circumstances can I support HRC. It’s back to third party for me in that case.
@Cyrus: wishful thinking. The dems have caved in and kowtowed to Bush on every significant issue after they won clear majorities in the House. What makes you believe they’d act any differently towards a (god forbid) President HRC?
jcricket
Remember how “old” Bob Dole looked? Sad as it may seem, it really hurt him. I don’t think John McCain – literally the oldest candidate ever – will improve that reality any either. He’s gonna seem ridiculously old compared to either of the Dems. Out of touch/step with America, etc.
We could still lose, but it would take some insane gaffes on our part and a terrorist attack or two (even that might turn Americans off more Republican rule).
p.lukasiak
unless she loses PA, I think she’s in for the duration…. mostly because there aren’t any “caucus” states until 6/3, and she wants to show that she can win those when she does compete in them — and that all of Obama’s big caucus victories were flukes.
ThymeZone
Oh, I doubt that. Your whole persona schtick is grounded in never understanding what is going on here. And I must say, it’s a consistent act.
ThymeZone
Yes, I am no longer sure that a terrorist attack works for the GOP any more. I think they have flogged that dog too many times.
I pray (to Jesus MYM) that there is no terrorist attack, and we don’t have to find out.
F
John,
I forgot about you referencing methodology; when you reference someone by name you don’t really mean that person, you actually mean someone like them. For all you newcomers, its called the Jane Hamsher rule
ThymeZone
I’d never bet my life on politics at all.
Zuzu
I can’t prove it, can’t point to any one single thing, but I just can’t shake the feeling I’ve had for the past four years:
That Terry McAuliffe screwed over John Kerry.
Just a feeling.
Reality Based Snark
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/obama_attorney_crashes_clinton.php
Fucking gold.
louisms
OMG, I thought I was the only one who noticed the resemblance between Hickabee and Mayor Wilkins from BTVS. My greatest fear was that he’d win the nomination, win the election, then transform into a huge snake during the inau guration.
zzyzx
Wow, you’ve preemptively dismissed Wyoming ;)
demimondian
Here, fixed that for you.
louisms
er… I meant HUckabee. Didn’t intend to insult hicks.
ThymeZone
Now it’s right.
ThymeZone
“We’re seeing the true grit of this candidate.”
Some Clinton campaign broad.
Two weeks ago they were reporting double digit leads for Clinton in Ohio and Texas.
Those disappeared. How can anyone conclude that the witch Brunhildary has some kind of momentum here?
You mean, two weeks of negative shit managed to keep her possibly close after squandering a huge lead … points to something for her campaign to smile about?
They sound like Rumsfeld explaining Iraq. Exactly like him.
Make them shut up and go away for fuck’s sake.
Jim
Hillary is now ahead in Texas. I guess Obama has to resort to what Hillary is doing: make attacks that help Republicans in the fall. I just want the Clintons to go away. God people are dumb as rocks.
Reality Based Snark
Give Hillary a Friedman unit and she’ll get the rules changed somehow to remove the fact its mathematically impossible for her to win without having the superdelegates rip the party to shreds.
ThymeZone
Hillary is not ahead in Texas. She is ahead in the rural vote counts. The cities are not counting very fast.
mightygodking
she wants to show that she can win those when she does compete in them
How much money did she spend in Iowa again? Oh, right – a shitload of it.
empty
AFAIK It’s mathematically impossible for either candidate to win without the superdelegates.
empty
CNN projects Ohio for Hillary.
demimondian
Hush. She wasn’t really competing there; she was just measuring the strength of the peons who intended to block her ascension to the Throne which was Rightly Hers.
demimondian
empty — are they giving margin estimates?
John Cole
The numbers arent there for her as far as the delegates matter. There is no point getting upset about it, all she has done is delay the inevitable.
And we learned that negative campaigning and lying works against Obama.
The Grand Panjandrum
NBC says Clinton takes Ohio.
demimondian
Looking at the current returns in Texas, it looks like the Dems are going to repeat the feat from the last several states — the Dem *loser* is going to get more votes than all the ‘Phant candidates combined.
Please, please, please, let this momentum go forward…
empty
58/40 with 54% reporting
John S.
And Obama got a lesson that cost less dearly than if it had been taught by McCain.
yet another jeff
Going with the Buffy theme, McCAAAAAIIINNN!! is The Master, with some moisturizer and more anger.
demimondian
What he said.
p.lukasiak
Glass half full: YIPPEE!!!! On to Pennsylvania, and the nomination!!!
Glass half empty: Oh crap. that means that my state is going to be crawling with media idiots for the next seven weeks….
p.lukasiak
And we learned that negative campaigning and lying works against Obama.
yeah, we figured it would, after all the lies that Obama has told about Hillary.
John S.
Tomorrow, Jr. shall announce from the White House that he formally endorses McCain III, who will coast through to November raising money, solidifying support and watching with a smile as Clinton and Obama tear each other to shreds for the next six weeks (should Clinton stay in the race).
Just something to think about.
demimondian
58/40? Ouch. That’s not a defeat, that’s a debacle.
No, john, this doesn’t give her the lead, but it does make it really hard for Howard Dean to push her out, which would — or, at least, might — be better for the party.
p.lukasiak
The damage he did to the party should not be forgotten.
as a lifelong democrat, let me just say STFU. We all know that within two years of a democrat getting into the WH (six months, if its Hillary), you’ll be talking about quitting MY party…
p.lukasiak
58/40? Ouch. That’s not a defeat, that’s a debacle.
that doesn’t include Cleveland/Cayohouga County, (which has only reported 2%)….so that number is going to tighten considerably….but it won’t change the who wins.
John Cole
Terry was as bad for the Democratic party as Rove was for the Republican party. Idiot partisans like you and the Red State knobs fail to realize it, but hacks like them repel people and lose majority status. Or do you want to regale me with the success of the 2000 terry run election.
You can stfu now, please.
John S.
You sound like the insane Irishman in Braveheart.
Do you have blue warpaint on your face?
Breschau
Holy cow. Even if the 58/40 does “tighten considerably” – I think the Clinton campaign still got the “double-digit win” every media pundit and political analyst insisted she needed.
So.. uhh.. now what? Are we basically guaranteed a split convention here? Oh.. well, that’s just awesome. Dubya hands the Dems a near-automatic invitation to the White House, and we screw it up because… we nominated two candidates that are *TOO* good?
WTF?
Also – after watching Hillary on SNL, I’ve realized: I don’t have any ill will towards her at all. She actually does seems like a decent person at heart. I really wonder what her campaign would have been like if it had been run by non-scummy people.
mightygodking
The win in Ohio right now looks big, but it’ll probably shrink a bit (say, 56-44, not bad, but not huge) once all the city ballots are tabulated; Obama’s count tends to go up later in counting because he does better in urban centres than Hillary does.
Texas, right now… if I was a betting man I’d say Obama takes the primary. Looking at the county-by-county map, Obama’s again leading in all the major metropolitan centres except San Antonio, and Hillary’s gotten the vast majority of her votes in rural areas which have already tabulated most or all of their votes. Obama’s got more votes coming down the pike than Hillary does. If he doesn’t win (and if he does, it’ll be a 52-48 vote at absolute most), he’ll still be in almost-a-tie range.
Hillary came close to mounting a comeback, but I think she didn’t quite pull it off.
John S.
Which as we all know is entirely irrelevant because Clinton is going to do what, pull within 100 delegates?
And she makes the remaining deficit up how exactly?
Breschau
*rolls eyes*
Jeezus….
demimondian
C’mon, p.luk! Terry McAuliffe was a catastrophe for the Democrats. I don’t feel that the strategy he pursued was as demented as other people on the left do, but it was counterproductive for the party when in government (because it takes away a governing ideology, which provides an overarching framework for organizing difficult policy decisions) and when out (because it takes away a unifying ideology which allows some points to be unnegotiable, not to be giving away).
ThymeZone
No, she needed double digit wins in OH and Texas in order to make a real dent in the pledged delegate gap. She won’t get that. She will probably get a single digit OH win and and a single digit Texas loss. Urban Texas is underreported, most of the uncounted votes in that state are from the urban areas where Obama is strong.
Just for the hell of it, and because I dont want to stay up that late, I am going to go out on a limb and predict TX for Obama by about 52-48.
Andrew
I’d like to hear paul address the near mathematical impossibilty of hillary getting enough delegates.
demimondian
Nah, TZ; she’ll get double digits in Ohio. I don’t know if she wins Texas or not, and I don’t know the reporting pattern in Texas, so I don’t know which precincts are in/not yet in.
mightygodking
Pluk, as a lifelong liberal, it’s no sin to say that McAulliffe was genuinely terrible as DNC chair; he knew how to raise money from big donors (very well, to be fair) and not a hell of a lot else, and he’s the epitome of inside-the-beltway thinking. Maybe a comparison to Rove is over-the-top, but McAullife’s not an original thinker, not a very good political strategist and absolutely horrible on television, and to boot he’s the most mealymouthed centrist you’ll ever meet, which is horrible for a position where you want a lion. Dean was a thousand times better.
John Cole
Dean IS a thousand times better.
And this is coming from someone who mocked him when I was heavy on the kool-aid.
empty
She can do it with the same superdelegates that Obama will use if he gets the nomination. Neither one can get to the required delegate totals with just pledged delegates. To dismiss the superdelegates because right now Hillary has a lead among them is as asinine as Hillary supporters dismissing the caucus states.
ThymeZone
I just told you, the urban ones, the counties at San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, and Houston. Big vote counts still out. Obama territory.
p.lukasiak
exit poll fun…
remember when I said that RI exit polls had hillary up by 4.1% based on gender distribution. Well, with 97% of the vote counted, its Clinton 58% Obama 41%
And the exit polls have been adjusted
Original Exit Poll Results
Males (43% of total)
..Clinton 43%
..Obama 56%
Females (57% of total)
..Clinton 58%
..Obama 41%
Current Exit Poll Results
Males (43% of total)
..Clinton 51%
..Obama 49%
Females (57% of total)
..Clinton 66%
..Obama 33%
Ohio exit polls have also been adjusted to the reality of the returns…
Texas hasn’t changed yet, though… but if RI and OH represent a trend, Hillary takes Texas as well.
empty
What he said!
John S.
So, your math is essentially Clinton coming up with 100 ‘automatic’ delegates?
Andrew
In particular, she needs to win every state including tonight onward by 57%-43% to equal Obama in delegates.
If tonight’s current numbers hold up, with a huge win in Ohio and a moderate win in Texas (igonoring the caucuses), she needs to win EVERY SINGLE remaining contest by more than 60%.
ThymeZone
Yeah, as the urban votes are counted, you are now seeing TX appear to be tied. As the night goes on, the Obama lead should reemerge and grow. Most of the remaining votes are urban.
p.lukasiak
I’d like to hear paul address the near mathematical impossibilty of hillary getting enough delegates.
H=probability of Clinton getting enough delegates to lock in the nomination
B=probability of Obama getting enough delegates to lock in the nomination
H=B
Andrew
Well, paul, I have to say that fucking absurd.
Andrew
I heard that the late votes in Texas are usually from west and border Texas, which would help hillary, but that the late votes in ohio are urban, which would help Obama.
empty
WTF does that have to do with “my” math. If she is behind by 100 delegates among the pledged delegates she has to get 100 more from the superdelegates. Maybe I am missing what you are getting at but the math seems rather obvious.
demimondian
TZ, all respect, but I’d like your source for that. It’s certainly the pattern in every other state, but this is Texas, and Texas is…special. Fortunately for Texas’ self-image, every state is a winner just for participating.
(By the way, as the parent of a special-needs child, may I say how demeaning that phrase is? All the other alternative Olympics are about real competition within the limitations posed by the disabilities under which the competitors function, and they’re real contests. I understand the self-esteem issues special-needs children face…but that kind of smarmy fake support is something that “even they” understand.)
p.lukasiak
Yeah, as the urban votes are counted, you are now seeing TX appear to be tied. As the night goes on, the Obama lead should reemerge and grow. Most of the remaining votes are urban.
That doesn’t mean they are Obama strongholds. Look at Webb County (Laredo) and El Paso. In fact, look at all the counties on the border. See how few returns have come in? See how they are distributed?
I have no idea who will win. But to think that the current returns are disproportionately pro-clinton would be a mistake at this point. They certainly haven’t adjusted Texas’ exit polls yet…
ThymeZone
NYT times interactive, county by county results. Quite clear.
Andrew
Playing with http://www.slate.com/features/delegatecounter/
If tonight holds up, and Obama ties Hillary in Oregon and NC (states he is likely to win) and loses 60-40 in EVERY other state to come, Obama will still be up by 40 delegates. So, in an extremely unlikely scenario, Hillary will have to win 40 more super delegates. Slightly more moderate scenarios, but still heavily weighted to Hillary victories in almost every single contest, and you’re indeed very close empty’s 100 delegates margin for supers.
ThymeZone
yes, actually they are, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin and Houston are pretty strongly Obama. I didn’t see one of those (approx 12-15) counties that wasn’t solid Obama in the vote counts. And almost all the remaining Texas votes are in those counties.
See the NYT county by county graphic interactive and judge for yourself.
Andrew
Looking at the NYT graphics, which I happen to think are a very well done web app, it looks like San Antonio is pro-hillary, which would be expected given the large hispanic population. On the other hand, TZ is quite correct that Dallas and Houston are just starting to come in, but so is El Paso.
p.lukasiak
TZ, I’m looking at the CNN graphic, and in Bexar county (San Antonio) with 55% of the vote counted, Clinton is up 56% to 43%.
54% of Dallas is in, and 64% of Travis (Austin) is in. The only urban area that hasn’t reported in much is Harris Co (Houston.)
But again, look at the border counties… not much at all has been reported from any of them…but what has been reported looks to be giving Clinton about 70% on average.
Andrew
I am also amused that McCain barely registered a majority in the TX primary.
ThymeZone
Another thing that NYT interactive map says is … this is taking FOREVER. Long, miserable night ahead.
Billy K
You would not believe the wave of Obama supporters at my urban Dallas caucus – and they were INSISTENT they get their vote counted, despite the fact the election apparatus was completely overwhelmed and often confused what to do. I’ve never seen anything like it…
Andrew
You mean “week.” The texas caucus result may not be turned in until friday.
John S.
So we’re to assume that after the results of today, they split all the remaining contests until the convention?
empty
By the all this discussion about Ohio is moot anyway. Axelrod says Ohio doesn’t matter. (from the Orange Satan)
On losing Ohio, he said it doesn’t matter if the campaign didn’t win since a Democrat will win Ohio regardless — due to the economic situation there.
demimondian
For technical reasons, I’m looking at CNN, not NYT (Mac Firefox has some limitations.) I’m seeing the same pattern as p.luk — Dallas and Austin are largely in, everything else, not so much.
OTOH, Texas has a Western-state population distribution; the population is highly urban. West Texas, in particular, is exceptionally empty. Those counties won’t provide many votes.
Andrew
Read my posts. Hillary can win every single contest and not have the delegate lead. If you’d like to make a wager on Hillary winning every single contest, I’d be happy to put up some money.
demimondian
To give a sense of scale, with 100% of all votes counted in Loving County, Obama has 7 votes…Clinton has 5.
John S.
I agree with you. I’m just trying to figure out how after all is said and done that Clinton can rely on netting +140 super delegates (because as of right now she is +40).
Since empty answered this question:
I’ve been trying to ascertain how the arithmetic works out.
empty
John I am clearly missing whatever you are getting at. I have no idea how many of the remaining contests she is going to win. What I was responding to was your statement which seemed to imply that even if she got to within a 100 delegates there was no way she could make up the deficit. Which seemed like other statements that it was “mathematically impossible” for her to win.
ThymeZone
You picked one county in those areas that — for now — has Clinton ahead, out of … 12? 15?
Look at the vote totals in those underreported urban areas, Paul. I think Denton county is at 1% counted right now.
Meanwhile .. the caucuses. And even more meanwhile … the pledged delegate shift, or more likely, the lack thereof.
Brunhildary was supposedly up by large margins in this state just a few weeks ago. What happened?
ThymeZone
And why is a big county sitting at 1% counted at this hour?
John S.
I only picked 100 because that is probably close to what the difference will be after tonight. In order to keep it at that, Clinton would have to perform as Andrew outlined. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it just seems highly unlikely she can broker that many super delegates and perform as well as she will need to to keep it that close.
Asti
That’s a good question.
demimondian
Hey, the CNN exit polls in Texas are fascinating stuff. If the numbers they give for breakdowns by gender hold up, then Clinton does win the night.
p.lukasiak
just a guess, but i think there is chaos at the caucuses, and that is preventing election officials from getting their totals out, since the caucuses are held in polling locations.
ThymeZone
I think they have counted all of 5683 votes, Asti.
Out of zillions. Strange.
Z
Bummer. With this kind of split in the results, Hillary will go all the way, draining her supporters, and forcing Obama to drain his.
I hate to say it, and honestly mean it, but this will only be good for the GOP.
Andrew
Is the lukasiak silliness spreading?
Those numbers don’t mean anything, given that they have yet to count very large number of African-American women (and men).
empty
I don’t trust my prediction abilities well enough to dispute that. Obama has more money and a better ground game so you might very well be right.
p.lukasiak
Hey, the CNN exit polls in Texas are fascinating stuff. If the numbers they give for breakdowns by gender hold up, then Clinton does win the night.
what is key is that the exit poll numbers for texas haven’t moved all night. The returns they are getting in are apparently looking pretty consistent with expectations based on the exit polling data.
ThymeZone
Only Texas could invent such a goofy scheme.
Martin
Last vote in Harris county was just cast. Lot of work still to do. And remember that 1/3 of the delegates come from the caucuses. This is far from over.
Asti
Timmeh is getting a hard on over Michigan and Florida delegates OH NOES! Please make it stop!
Reality Based Snark
Uhhh hello? A proportional systems that seem to ignore state-wide vote counts, superdelegates? It ain’t just Texas.
AkaDad
When it comes to war, health care, and the economy (NAFTA), history has shown that calling Hillary at 3 AM isn’t a good idea.
ThymeZone
A nice bowl of ricin pudding would be good right now, if I have to listen to Tim Russetpotatohead or Wolf Blitzen for one more hour.
Reality Based Snark
Openleft.com’s delegate projections are amusing. With current projections (not including the Texas Caucus) the projection is that Hillary only picks up a net gain of 3 delegates.
ThymeZone
Your tv sure has a better picture than mine.
All I can see is his big mouth.
“Three more months! Three more months!”
Bah. Somebody PLEASE shut him up.
Reality Based Snark
And now comes the part that burns out most of the energy of the Democratic base before the general…
ThymeZone
I was thinking of a delegate shift of ten or so, when all the dust settles … but as you say, not counting the caucuses.
So the Big Comeback Hillary needed didn’t happen. How does this performance change the outcome?
p.lukasiak
Thyme, have you looked at the regional exit poll breakdowns?
They have the Rio Grande Valley going for Clinton 61 to 37%. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but that would comprise all the counties that border Mexico… and Clinton is taking those counties by about 70% on average…
Andrew
It makes it more likely that Obama will have the majority of pledged delegates.
Reality Based Snark
She stays in until at least PA at which point half the party slits their own wrists because the damn thing just won’t end.
VOTE EMO!
srv
My projections:
Barack in Dallas by 80K
Barack in Travis by 50K
Barack in Harris by 75K
Clinton wins Bexar by 30K
Clinton wins El Paso by TBD
Baracks is not expanding much in Harris, most of that is an early voting lead. If the valley votes are still out, he’s still probably going to pull it out.
myiq2xu
p.luk: You might want to take off outta here for tonight.
The MUPpets are restless and have been known to engage in human sacrifice when the pony oinks
The Other Steve
Exit polls don’t seem to be working in these races.
It looks like Texas is going to go like Missouri. It’s down to the more populated counties where Obama is winning by a wider margin, and in the end I think primary and caucus will toss his way.
What will be more interesting is how delegates are divided up. There, Obama is favored by an even wider margin as he’s winning in the districts which are important(nudge nudge), the ones who voted for Kerry back in ’04.
Asti
Delegates win elections, notthe popular vote. Hello? Are you getting this?
yet another jeff
Not all that many people in the Valley, though…the percentages are good for Hillary there but the number of people that make up that percentage isn’t so good for her.
Reality Based Snark
For a country that is so into democracy why do we suck so badly at it?
AkaDad
Looks like she’s sewn up the illegal immigrant demographic.
jcricket
I noticed this as well. Obamaniacs please don’t let your personal feelings about Clinton’s tactics get in the way of the fact that both candidates have done nothing but increase their own turnouts recently. The harder they fight each other, the more Democrats get engaged.
That will only turn out false if you let it. Get all pissy right now all you want, but then line up behind the nominee. Don’t fucking pass me a line about stolen elections if Clinton’s the nominee.
She leads Obama by like 150,000 votes in OH. I know that’s not the US total, but stop fucking acting like she has no popular support, or that “real” Democrats aren’t voting for her.
There are lots of people who like Obama, and lots of reasons to vote for him. I personally think there are reasons not to, and to prefer Hillary over him. You disagree, but lots of people (besides myself, myiq & p. lukusiak) disagree with you. I’ve had just enough of you tossing us under the bus because we haven’t drank the sweaty nutsack of your MUP and gotten Obama fever.
jcricket
When they say “Don’t mess with Texas” they forgot to add “because it’s already broken and we don’t need it to get any worse.”
I can’t wait until the increase in Latino population and increased urban populations make Texas a blue state.
empty
Another republican reverts.
Andrew
We’re not that into democracy. We have completely non-proportional representation in Congress and a winner take all electoral college.
Asti
Likewise, I’ll ask the same of you when the delegates choose Obama.
ThymeZone
Well, there are counties out there that have fewer than 1000 votes. The delegate count out of Texas almost certainly favors Obama.
“This contest is about delegates.”
Isn’t that what Mark Penn said about three weeks ago?
Reality Based Snark
Uhh no. Just because I’m a registered Democrat doesn’t mean whoever the nominee is gets a free ride. If a certain candidate decides to act like a douchebag during the primary don’t be surprised if some people chose not to show up for the general.
This isn’t the party of “The Democrats are always worse”.
p.lukasiak
IMHO, unless Obama beats Clinton in PA, the nomination will be hers.
Simply put, Obama has consistently failed to execute when/where its been important for him to do so. Ohio is especially troublesome… look at the CNN map…he won in four counties….out of a way more than its worth to count.
Andrew
No, it’s that you can’t do basic math and explain how Hillary makes up enough delegates.
myiq2xu
Cheeter:
John D.
Burnt Orange Report has an interesting spreadsheet you can use to check this.
jcricket
I keep expecting him to say something like, “Is this thing on? Hello? Anyone? I’m running for president. I was a POW! C’mon people. I spent 5 years in a jungle prison camp with this watch up my ass!”
myiq2xu
More cheeting:
ThymeZone
The metaphor police just called, and asked that you please wash your mouth out with soap.
myiq2xu
That’s cuz all them Texass GOPers are voting for Obama
Andrew
Is that something like pretending to be a cheetah? Growl!
AkaDad
What if she’s behind in the delegate count, popular vote, and state count, does she still get the nomination?
p.lukasiak
Jeff, I don’t know what CNN considers the Rio Grande Valley, but they have it as constituting 23% of votes statewide…(could they be including San Antonio?)
jcricket
As I’ve said like 1000 times all over the comment threads, sign me the fuck up for Obamania once he’s the nominee. I don’t care if he gets there in a week, a month, or at the convention. I don’t care if he gets there with pledged delegates alone, pledged + super, or a brokered convention outcome.
He’s a Democrat and I will support his run for the WH. For a million reasons from the big (getting someone’s finger off the fucking nuclear trigger) to the little (appointments at every federal agency, global gag rule) a Democrat is needed in the WH.
Once we get one there, we push them and push them to the left until we reshape the party and the conversation. I think Hillary’s better than Obama, but she’s still not gonna do 1/2 of what I want. That doesn’t mean I wait along until there’s a candidate that gets me 100%. It’s not all or nothing.
Reality Based Snark
Jesus christ, it’s like watching the 2000 Republicans in reverse.
empty
I think this is the most important point. Some time back TZ had a pretty eloquent post along these lines as well. It is a two stage process. Let’s get them elected and then put whatever pressure we can muster.
jcricket
No, that’s not it at all. That’s moving the fucking goalposts you asshat. There’s a lot of fucking ground that’s undecided, and despite just yesterday everyone saying Ohio was going to be really tight, the popular vote total wasn’t.
I’m not arguing that she has an easy shot, or that it’s 100% clear how she makes up the delegates. But the idea has been expressed ever since Obama gained momentum after Super Tuesday that she’s doomed, it’s over, she’ll never win another important contest, Obama has 100% of the Democrats who matter, etc. All the super delegates are sure to go Obama, oh wait, maybe not, but it doesn’t matter.
It’s posturing, which I understand, but that’s all it is to me. At this point both sides are going to continue posturing for quite a while. Which is, honestly, fine.
I said if Hillary lost OH and and TX she should get out. I still think if she loses TX there’s a strong case for her getting out. But if/since neither of those happened, I see no reason for her to leave/give up except to make the MUP lovers happy.
Fuck that.
ThymeZone
What I need is to suck on a good Spumante.
Please make these pundits be quiet.
Obama 28-13 in states. Obama ahead in popular total. Obama ahead in delegate count.
Why are these Hillarites acting like they just won a victory? They went into TX and OH, a couple weeks ago, with prohibitive and daunting polling leads.
If I never see another Clinton, never hear another of their voices, it will be too soon for me.
The Other Steve
BWAAA HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!
Andrew
Can someone explain to me how winning the most delegates is “moving the fucking goalposts?”
I want someone to explain, using numbers, how hillary gets within 100 pledged delegates at any point in the future.
KCinDC
John and Louisms are crazy. Everyone knows that Mitt Romney is Mayor Wilkins.
Andrew
Rather, I should say, improves on the 100 delegate margin.
srv
San Antonio is not in the valley.
Will Obama step aside this week, honorably, like Huckabee?
jcricket
Thanks for a perfect demonstration of the un-hingedness of Obama supporters. Hillary is not as bad as Bush, she’s not a Republican, she’s not out to destroy the Democratic party. Massive numbers of Democrats support her, have come out to vote and caucus for her. And her fund raising numbers are record breaking. Yes, Obama breaks all those records too, so he’s got tons of support.
So don’t act as if supporting either of the two candidates right now is some blind act of allegiance. What we have, IMHO, is an embarrassment of political riches. Either candidate would make an incredible president, and a vast improvement over any Republican president for the last 30 years, up-to-and-including St. Ronnie Reagan.
Zuzu
Latest from WaPo interactive site:
p.lukasiak
CNN is calling Texas for Clinton.
ThymeZone
You can slice this any way you want, but as far as I am concerned, just the suggestion that MI and FL somehow entitle Clinton to anything — at all — disqualifies her for office. Not just the nomination, but for office of any kind.
Do we really want to have another president who puts herself above the people, above the rules, above her own party? A female George Bush?
Punchy
I have an odd feeling Hillary wins this thing, kids. I’d rather see the O-man, but she’ll grab the ‘mo, grab the superdellys, and squeak out a win. That’s what she does. That’s what she knows.
ThymeZone
What a fucking disaster, for this party and for the country.
Those two disgusting people back in the White House? Eight more months of listening to that fucking voice?
I sincerely hope this doesn’t happen.
F
John,
You want to know why I am upset at you and others for your comments, because while I am a Hillary supporter, first and foremost I am a Democrat and this becomes old after awhile.
As much as some may wish not and the odds may seem long, Hillary may just end up as our candidate and the fight for the presidency will be difficult enough without the constant denigration of one of our two remaining candidates by people who claim to be members of the Democratic party. Believe me, there will be enough so called “disgusted Republicans / former Republicans / DINOs” (Sullivan, etc.) who will go running back to the Republican party because that “woman” is the nominee. For the Democrats to fall into the trap of constantly denigrating their possible candidate is in my opinion foolish. If Hillary does something illegal or shady by all means call her on it, but if she is only aggressively pursuing the nomination, why don’t you leave the constant drumbeat of negativity to the Sullivans of the world, I’m sure they be all over it.
Good Night All
Reality Based Snark
So Bush is the fucking metric we’re comparing DEMOCRATS against? Seriously?
Thanks for a perfect example of democratic version… “The Republicans Are Always Worse”.
I vote for who I think is the better candidate and the better job. I do not automatically vote for whoever is on the ticket and start talking nonsense like “we’ll push the candidate left”. No you fucking won’t. It doesn’t happen. And I certainly won’t vote for a candidate whose team is full of the same people that left the Democratic party in such a horrible shape.
I’ll spell it out for you… Explain to me how a Clinton win benefits the 50 state strategy pushed by Dean. Explain to me why Clinton supports have such hatred for Dean whose goal is to rebuild the party in all 50 fucking states.
srv
I’m thrilled that my spiritual home brings the magical unity pony ride to crashing halt.
Take that, all you meth-state, near Canadians, and upity-Yankee dogooders. Except you Penn folks. You know what you need to do.
ThymeZone
This country hasn’t been without the spirit-sucking voices of Bushes and Clintons on the national stage for 28 years now.
Do you like the way the country is now? Look no further than those two dynasties to explain it.
Are you looking forward to four or eight more years of listening to these detestable people on your tv and radio?
Enough is enough. I am getting up tomorrow morning and giving every penny I can afford to the Obama campaign, and I urge anyone who cares about the Democratic Party to do the same.
Reality Based Snark
I swear to god, if the crew of scumbags and parasites that surround Clinton gain power in the party again Rove may very well get his permanent Republican majority.
I certainly won’t be sticking around as a Dem with Lieberman Democrats at the fucking helm.
Desmond
If anyone cares, it’s highly likely Obama will actually EXTEND his delegate lead tonight. Despite the Hillary spin, delegate-wise this wasn’t a bad night for him.
The Other Steve
Hillary should have thought of that before she rolled out her “Attack Democrats and call them stupid in a desperate attempt to grasp the nomination” strategy.
I’m apalled that I spent time defending her last year. She’s a disaster.
Here we have an opportunity to not just take the party in a new direction, but the entire country. And we’ve got Hillary up there acting no different than George Bush. In 4 years she’ll destroy all the momentum the Democrats have gained from the Bush disaster. That is, if she wins, which I seriously doubt she can against Yawn McCain. Because if your only argument is experience, she’s got nothing compared to McCain.
What you have to argue is that your ideas are better. That you have a vision. And she clearly does not, and her ideas are all derived from micro-polling. Bleah
Reality Based Snark
I’m not seeing the math for this, source?
jcricket
What hatred do I or the other Clinton fans in this forum have for Dean? I’m a big fan of Dean and the 50 state strategy. I give money to the DNC now and then when I can afford it.
How does running a candidate who’s generated what in any other year would be record turnout and record fundraising numbers from small and large donors hurt the Democratic party.
My prediction – Obama is still the nominee when this primary season is all over. If that’s the case, he’ll win, but none of the grand glorious country unifying things are gonna happen. It’s still gonna be a long hard slog against obstructionist Republicans.
If Hillary is the nominee, she still wins, and none of the doom and gloom people are predicting comes to pass. Even a bigger win if she gets Obama as a VP in this scenario. Regardless of that issue, he’ll still campaign heavily for her (and I would hope the same from her, in a fashion).
Blog denizens (myself included) are simply not representative of the way people are viewing this campaign from the outside, and either candidate getting the nomination is good for this country. TZ is just plain wrong.
Desmond
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4341
Texas has some weird delegate math that favors him. And that table doesn’t count the caucuses yet.
Asti
Boy we sure do have some bitter Clintonites here. Ummm, why all this spewed hatred? Srv, you do realize that your own post negates what you’re trying to accuse Obama supporters of doing?
Hello? Is there anybody in there?
Clinton won the popular vote on a negative campaign ad, and then we have a bunch of bitter Clintonites who want to blame the fall of Rome on Obama supporters? What are you guys drinking? Check for power residue.
The Other Steve
Agreed. Hillary didn’t do as well tonight as she needed to.
Ninerdave
This is the same as Super Tuesday, he just needed to keep it close. He’s got a few more wins coming up before PA. While I always thought it was a long shot for him to win OH, I was hoping for a popular victory (and thought it was likely) in TX. Caucuses still on, he can still probably pull out a +1 or +2 delegate win if it goes well, although not likely with the bigger win in OH.
The Grand Panjandrum
Unless a major meltdown occurs in the TX caucus this day was basically a wash for pledged delegates. The pledged delegates are what count.
Unless we end up with a major surprise in the TX caucus we will end up with a wash for the this day of elections. In other words, Clinton is still more the 100 pledged delegates behind. This Tuesday night is much like Super Tuesday, in that once the dust settles reality will bite Clinton in the ass. Its about the delegates.
Her chance of making up the difference in the pledged delegate count is so close to zero that her only plausible path to the nomination is to convince the super delegates to commit to her.
Reality Based Snark
While I don’t like Clinton at all this primary system is complete bullshit. Seriously.
One national primary date, popular vote country wide. But no, that would be too democratic. God forbid 1 vote = 1 vote.
F
ThymeZone and Others like you,
Were you this passionate when we went Reagan / Reagan / Bush?
Did you up and give every penny you could afford to Bill Clinton’s campaign, and urge anyone who cares about the Country to do the same?
We seemed to confused to who FUCKED-UP our country, I seem to remember when Bill Clinton left office we were at peace and had a budget surplus. Get off your fucking high horse open your eyes and stop believing every fucking thing you see or read. Bill and Hilliary Clinton did not fuck up our party or the country, it was assholes like you who believed what they were being fed (no difference between the parties) and decided to either sit home in 2000 or vote Ralph “FUCKING” Nader!!! that allowed the current criminal gang to get into power
Damm, you people piss me off.
Ninerdave
Oh yeah and I’m enjoying MSNBC tonite. The clowning around and joking, is just enough to spice it up. Love the panel tonite, and unlike most of the liberal persuasion, I get a kick out of tweety.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Oh, no, it won’t. Because McCain is going to win by a few points if this keeps up.
Obama’s power is only functional if he keeps up the momentum. “Yes we can” doesn’t really work if you’re in the middle of a spell of cannot.
Hillary. Well, who the hell needs an explanation on that?
McCain already put a challenge down: “Get us out of Iraq responsibly.” There’s no chance either answers that challenge without making McCain look like the responsible one.
And simply: Democrats just don’t have their shit together. People like Clinton are great, even if they accrue power, but you’re supposed to put checks on their power exactly for situations like this, where she’s left simply with the power to destroy her party.
You were supposed to install an Emergency Cut-off Switch, and you didn’t.
Get ready for 2 years of McCain and then 2 years of his VP.
Desmond
Actually, I gave a bad link; just go to the Open Left homepage for the most up to date table:
http://www.openleft.com/
Right now it’s looking like a net 25 for Hillary, but again, that’s before caucuses.
ThymeZone
Yeah, MSNBC had that math up a while ago. Clinton is about a plus nine without Texas, but because of the way Texas apportions delegates, Obama gets more delegates there than she does and wipes out her gain. Assuming that he holds his own in the caucuses. She ends up with almost no delegate change or he makes a small gain.
Only 2-3 weeks ago, the CW was that she had to win big in TX and OH and gain a bunch of delegates in order to have a realistic chance at the delegate majority. She will not accomplish this tonight, but she did accomplish fooling a lot of people into thinking that somehow, by holding onto a slim portion of a huge lead she had three weeks ago, thanks to some really nasty and destructive campaigning, she has the “momentum” now, mainly because we have tv news people who are as dumb as boards.
I think this is the first time in my entire adult life I have not been happy to be a Democrat. I am going to have to assess what I personally can do now to help her opponent get her out of this primary and out of my fucking life forever.
ThymeZone
Yes I did, asshole. I was digging post holes for campaign signs fifty years ago, for Democrats. What were you doing?
Don’t fucking lecture me.
Reality Based Snark
Stop giving me hope.
Andrew
Okay, since Hillary folks are completely unable to explain how she will make up enough pledged delegates, it’s clear that they are depending upon a huge superdelegate swing to put her over the top. I’d like to hear an explanation how that squares with all of their bitching and moaning about caucuses being undemocratic. They’d rather have superdelegates making a decision rather than committed caucus goers?
Desmond
And apparently people are supposed to forget that she had just lost 11 primaries in a row. The reality is that the demographics of these two states were tailor made for Hillary, lots of white working class people in Ohio and lots of Hispanics in Texas. Yet she’ll probably lose the delegate battle in Texas at least. And next week looks good for Obama; both Wyoming and Mississipi should be solid wins for him.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Most of the supporter are really far-gone, and I don’t think it has anything to do with Hill’s campaign.
Hillary, to these people, seems to represent this latent expectation from years ago that she would get into the White House, fix everything, and bring back the 90’s boom. It’s simple association, really. Bill Clinton oversaw a good point in history, Hillary is married to Bill. Sadly, that’s how human cognition works.
And I think this borderline paranoia is a function of having that nervous hope/assumption fucked with by Obama. Gotta admit: relative to Hillary, Obama committed to running fast.
So this isn’t going away until Obama stops making progress. Which seems like never.
And I seriously think there will be a Dolchstoss-esque backlash after Hillary loses. Humans committed to their leaders suck that way.
Splitting Image
“if she is only aggressively pursuing the nomination, why don’t you leave the constant drumbeat of negativity to the Sullivans of the world, I’m sure they be all over it.”
Because she’s not only pursuing the nomination. She’s openly sabotaging the elections of other Democratic candidates in other parts of the country.
The Turn Texas Blue movement, for example, wants to overturn the results of the last round of Republican redistricting in the state, among many other things. Electing a Democrat to the White House is a priority, but millions of Democrats in Texas are desperate to take back the state houses. I’m sure they’d love to flip the state over to the Democrats in the electoral college, but first things first.
A popular candidate at the top of the ticket would help. A candidate who actually understands the situation would help. Clinton has said publicly that Texas wasn’t even on her radar as far as November was concerned. It damn well ought to have been.
The former governor of Idaho called her out for much the same thing. She and her staff have openly said that most of the states Obama won don’t matter to them and the Republicans will certainly use that against her if she is the nominee. Mark Penn went so far as to say at one point that the only significant state Obama had won was Illinois, and quietly underscored the point that the other 22 states Obama had won at the time were insignificant to him. If Clinton wins the nomination, all 22 of those states will become a little bit redder.
For the last time, this is not about Obama. It’s about winning the entire country back from the Republicans. Clinton can’t do that by herself and neither can Obama. What matters is the 50-state strategy, meaning “actually campaigning like every election in every state is important”. Obama is on board with that and Clinton isn’t. That’s the sum of the difference between them.
F
Then stop fucking whining.
ThymeZone
{ buzzer }
Lexicon violation. Five minutes in the penalty box.
srv
Excellent. You do know Nadar is running?
If I had hated you a little more, just a little more, we would have had a lot less trouble.
ThymeZone
Hey, who the fuck do you think you are talking to?
Go fuck yourself.
Reality Based Snark
Thank you Splitting Image. Your post nails it.
If you view the Democratic party as a means of progressive change and not a fucking sports team to blindly pledge allegiance to then the 50 state strategy should be more important to you than whoever is the Presidential nominee. Too bad one of those nominees is surrounded by burning stupidity.
Asti
So what you’re saying is they really want Bill Clinton to be president again because Hillary wasn’t in the meetings and gtting the lowdown. She was picking out china patterns and trying to set up a healthcare program. That’s what firest ladies do. She did not have her hands on the reins of power, no matter how much we wants to project that she did. Let’s be honest Clintonites and admit, what you really want is Hillary to win the nomination and then place her hubby back into the seat of power.
srv
Fixed.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
That’s a bullshit call, Ref! He pushed me right into the fucking goalie! How am I supposed to dodge 220 lbs. on skates, huh?!
What, you don’t like my use of military terms in wording? Or you having a little snit about my use of “esque”? Well, what is it?? Review the goddamn call, wouldja??
[/roid rage]
Asti
Oh, I see, your hatred would have justfied the ends you wanted to achieve and so that would make it okay? Well after you saying this I will NEVER vote for your candidate. You now show me exactly why I didn’t support her.
The Other Steve
You seem to be confused as to who has endorsed McCain and coordinated attacks with the Republicans against fellow Democrats.
ThymeZone
Yeah, I think her “John McCain and I are the only two who are qualified to be president” theme is really something all Dems can rally around.
You know what that was? That was a hearty FUCK YOU to the half of Democrats who support her opponent in this primary, who might be the most energized voters on earth right now.
That, so that she could play us for tonight, probably gain no delegates, and claim victory for herself.
Nice, really. And her turd supporters want to sit here and lecture anybody on what being a Democrat is about? Fuck them.
F
I don’t think because Hillary is married to Bill, she’ll wave her hands and “swoosh” she’ll return us to the 90s. What I do believe is she is fiercely intelligent and competent person who in my opinion has the best chance to get the Country out of the many messes that the Republicans have gotten us into.
Asti
Yeah, that vote to take us into Iraq reallly helped set us on the right path, didn’t it?
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Umm, I’m not sure where you are with that, so lemme disclaim: I am NOT a Clinton supporter.
That aside, the human thought is effectively “I’m putting
HillaryClinton in the White House”Which would bring up a neat question: what stupid mental associations are we Obama kiddies doing?
Reality Based Snark
I’M FEELING SOME PARTY UNITY RIGHT NOW BITCHES!
(oh sorry, that was sexist.)
Desmond
The kinds of attacks Hillary is launching at Obama are quite simply dangerous for the party; dangerous for the Democrats’ chances in November. Despite what happened tonight, it is still very unlikely that Hillary will be the Democratic nominee, yet the Republicans now have high profile Dems on record saying things like “Obama is not experienced enough to be president” and “he just makes good speeches” and “he’s just a kid”. Do you Hillary supporters really want Democrats saying something like that about their probable nominee? The Clinton campaign has been extremely condescending towards Obama all along, and it enables the Republicans to say “even HILLARY CLINTON thinks Obama is an asshat”.
Not that any of this bothers Hillary, especially considering that it has mostly originated with her. If she doesn’t get the nomination, the party can burn for all she cares.
Asti
No, actually, it was mysogynistic.
The Other Steve
She even abandoned Minnesota. Gore made the same mistake in 2000, and he nearly lost the state.
You have got to be prepared to run a nationwide campaign, even in states that you don’t think you are going to win.
Reality Based Snark
What if it only covers older white women?
F
Wow,
So its OK for Obama and his supporters:
– to accuse her of everything short of putting on a white hood and robe.
– to accuse her of destroying the democratic party
But then again he is not
Reality Based Snark
F,
You left off the part of the post where you prove that he himself with his own words is openly sabotaging the elections of other Democratic candidates.
Because she is being tagged for words that have come out of her own mouth.
ThymeZone
It can be rationally argued that exactly the opposite is true. That she will energize Republican opposition to Dem policy, that they will stonewall and clog up the gears of Congress, and set the stage for a GOP return to majority on the Hill midterm. It can be rationally argued that she and Chubby will fuck up the opportunity they are given the same way they did in 1993 and 1994 and end up wasting an entire term without getting healthcare reform, caving in to some dumb trade pressures, and bringing scandal and dark troubling mystery — again — to the White House like it has been for sixteen fucking years thanks to them and their Beverly Hillbilly successors.
It can be argued that Rush Limbaugh couldn’t ask for a better consolation prize this year than the election of the Clintoons back into the White House. Hey, the fun couple that gave you No Healthcare Reform, NAFTA and Blowjobs In The Oval Office are baaaaaaaack!
Yeah, tell me that THAT argument is completely off the wall, okay?
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Well, that was clean, concise, yet not completed. Yes, you are correct about her personal properties. She’s a terrific wonk, and I bet her preferred policies aren’t anywhere near insane as the wares she’s selling now.
Her preferred staff, and her ability to direct 1000 top-o-the-line professionals to coordinate her policy into a gameplan, complete with what-ifs and damage-control plans? No. She does _not_ have that skill. She’s not trained for it. Doesn’t make her worthless/evil/unamerican, but it does make this job poorly suited for her.
Note that a lotta Obama supporters are bolstering his lack of experience with his apparent ability to run a no-fucking-around team, and his preference to hire outside talent.
Asti
I never said you were, I said “so what you’re saying is they want…”
So you technically agree with my argument that they want to put Bill Clinton back into the seat of power.
Oh, I don’t know, how about two fucking years of GHWB(41) and Bill (42) joined at the hip and yucking it up? How about the corporate welfare that Hillary supports with her votes? I think I have good reason to be skittish of another Clinton presidency. This is NOT the 1990’s.
Reality Based Snark
You are not allowed to question that component of her greater experience.
Reality Based Snark
The fact a fucking nobody has led the delegate count for so long this primary season points to how great his team is and how horrid hers is.
Asti
Hello? Obama is not saying that a vote for McCain is better than a vote for Hillary.
ImJohnGalt
I don’t understand why Hillary brags about having beat Obama in California and New York.
Does she really think that Obama (or a fucking Donkey Kong Videogame with a (D) after it) wouldn’t win California or New York if he was the nominee?
The Other Steve
I think it’s clear she ain’t competent. She’s too concerned with what the polls are going to say to take a position.
F
Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ, Hillary fucked up on IRAQ.
People do make mistake you know and yes that was a huge one, a mistake of a lifetime. However, as much as we all blame her for giving the twit the power – as the NRA says, guns don’t kill people people kill people – George W. Bush decided to invade Iraq not Hillary Clinton.
The Other Steve
Clinton’s own worst enemy is her supporters.
Asti
I don’t know why, but for some reason I read tht post and thought of Eva Peron.
Desmond
The botton line is that Hillary won tonight (but maybe not in delegates) by painting a fellow Democrat as weak and untrustworthy, even in comparison to the Republican nominee, and by throwing as much dirt as him as possible. Lovely.
God, we’re going to have to put up with this shit for at least another month, and possibly longer.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
OK, just wanted to be clear. It seemed like I was getting lumped in… it was making me nervous.
Close. I with your argument that they want to put
BillClinton back into the seat of power. Note the negation. In text, on this board, in the language we use here, there are definite differences between the two humans. In the brain, there are no such limitations. They are of a similar persona, similar administration, similar policies; there’s a lot of jumps that the brain can casually make for convenience’s sake.Assumptions are what keep the brain from spending 20 minutes over every minor detail. Assumptions aren’t limited to simple facts, like “sky is blue”. It can be that “Bill Clinton is effectively Hillary Clinton, hereafter defined as Clinton”
Also, “Administration of Bill Clinton is effectively Administration of Hillary Clinton, hereafter defined as Administration of Clinton”
Asti
Oh, I forgot, the vote was for whether they should cover the victory cake with vanilla or chocolate icing.
George Bush couldn’t have done it without her help.
Reality Based Snark
Oh look, another important vote she didn’t bother taking a stand on. I’m glad the telecom immunity one was only her latest in a string of fucking no shows.
ThymeZone
Pundits are lining up all day today, even with the new Hillary-friendly atmosphere suddenly on cable, to talk about her refusal to just say “Barack Obama is not a Muslim, and any such talk is ridiculous.
She couldn’t even bring herself to just say that, without weaseling her way through a calculated and triangulated version of “I was for his being Muslim before I was against it” bullshit.
The woman is a political calculator, a human manifestation of Babbage’s Analytical Engine, weighing every facial expression against some potential votecount.
When the sixty minutes interviewer asked Obama if he was going to engage in some smear or another, he just shook his head and said, “No. We don’t play that.”
Can you imagine Hillary saying that? Seriously?
The Other Steve
Yeah, but you know.
Couldn’t she at least apologize for screwing up? She isn’t even willing to take a firm position on that one either, despite the polling, because she’s afraid someone might attack her for not being tough.
It’s the same fucked up reasoning that convinced those shitheads to vote for that thing in 2003.
Asti
No, she picked out china patterns and concentrated on a public service (health care) like ALL first ladies do. She did not experience the job of President. She would have to rely on Bill’s experience to say she did.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
You’re under some impression that we’re forced to occlude Hillary from punishment because there was a worse jackass involved in the same issue. Not true.
Bush is a war criminal, and deserves to be spending the rest of history thanking God that his legacy looks better than Hitler’s.
Hillary Clinton is negligent.
See? That was easy.
Reality Based Snark
We should totally get a Clinton/Reid ticket going. Just think, two spineless useless senators in one action packed ticket!
ThymeZone
Don’t cry for me, Arklatexia!
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
See? This is why I had to make that disclaimer. I don’t think this way. I’m hypothesizing that others do.
Yes, I agree with your statement about HRC ’93-’01. In fact, I’m one of the more vocal “Who gives a shit about a first spouse” protesters.
The Other Steve
Honestly. No.
F
ThymeZone,
For someone who has supposedly been a Democrat for many years you seem to have really drank the kool-aid.
I’ll go slowly for you;
– The Republican base will hate whomever the democratic nominee is (whether is “that evil woman” or “the black man with the Muslim name”
– The scandals of the 90s were made up by the Republicans
– the Democratic Congress of 1990 and 1991 were the ones who frittered away the opportunity to make significant policy changes
– it was the left wing of the party in 1992 and 1994 (similar to 2000) who decided that Bill Clinton was too centrist and they either sat home or went Independent
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
… and I was trying to say that, if I’m right, these people would be thinking of an HRC Presidency as an extension of #43.
ThymeZone
Unfortunately, I have to go to sleep and restore the one or two brain cells that are still on my side after this bad evening of political stuff.
So that tomorrow I can sally forth and earn a crust and cater to the whims of my insane bosses and their foolish cackling underlings that I take to be Republicans.
Well, it’s not all bad. Sometimes I get to assist customers personally and give them the kind of hands-on care that makes my day worthwhile.
Anyway, buenas noches to all.
Asti
LMAO, that was cute!
Ninerdave
Bullshit. She’ll do whatever it is she has to do to win.
…and she’ll burn the Democrat party to the ground in the process of becoming the President. Hell, doesn’t matter she in entitled to the Presidency! It’s her turn, right?
Hillary is with the worst of the capitulating Democrat party. She’s walking around with her finger in the wind, just like 90% of the Democratic party. She voted for Iraq. Q.E.D. She can talk like it was a mistake, she didn’t have enough “info”, but hell, if I, as a layman, was able to put 2 and 2 together and saw that invading Iraq would be a cluster fuck and actually increase terrorism, she should be able to as well. Of course that would have been political suicide in the climate then.
Fuck her, and fuck the current Democratic status quo. She hasn’t challenged Bush, yet she can talk a good game.
My immediate social circle, no one will vote for Hillary in the general. Either they’ll vote for McCain or sit out (I’ll be the latter). While that may not mean much, these are folk who are donating, emailing their friends and activly being involved, most for the first time. These are the people of the “Obama movement”. Most of them are n00bs to the political process who will vanish into the ether if Obama looses, or will become activists if he wins.
The delegate math (the only thing that matters) says that if Obama and Hillary stay essentially tied for the most part until the convention Hillary looses unless she pulls some stunt…(e.g. trying to get FL, etc counted). The only thing you can say this far in this electoral season is that Hillary and Obama have been tied, with Obama picking up the odd delegate or two.
If Hillary wins, it will be via backroom bullshit and that…will deliver the the presidency to McCain.
Asti
Your help is much appreciated, I’m sure.
myiq2xu
Hillary withstood the MUPmentum, but now it is receding.
Nothin’ but good times ahead!
Zuzu
Sorry if this is a repeat of someone else’s.
WaPo gives Ohio and Texas to Hillary.
WaPo
Asti
Well, I think you meant #42, but, I’m concerned about the new Bush/Clinton friendship and I AM concerned it will be an extension of #43.
ThymeZone
Clinton, much more so.
Monica Lewinski.
Gulf war.
A mistake they are not likely to make this year.
Anyway, let’s continue tomorrow. I have to retire.
Cheers.
prince roy
Well, congratulations Democratic Establishment. You’ll probably get your candidate. Be sure to thank Rush Limbaugh for putting you over the top. The GOP is salivating at the prospect of HRC as the nominee.
I speak for the majority of independents in this country, the ones the dems need to have a hope of winning in November, when I say: I’m walking. Get used to the sound of President McCain. ‘Dim’ocrats indeed. Always snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Asti
How nice, it really wasn’t their’s to give.
Delegates are what matters, this TX win will mean nothing in the end of things.
F
I don’t think you should give Hillary a pass on her war vote. As someone who was against this from the very beginning, its taken me a very, very verrrry long time to get past it (I don’t think I will ever “forgive her”), however when I thought it over the question I keep coming back to is this; In my opinion who is best person to get us out of Iraq? Hillary
myiq2xu
The comments today are the funniest I’ve ever seen here at BJ.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Well… math has Clinton set as a loser… and Obama can’t go very far if nobody’s looking at him…
So you must be loving the idea of a McCain preznitsy, eh?
I hear, tomorrow, the Chimp is going to climb out of the flightsuit and give him a nod. You gonna watch your boy play with Bubbles in the Rose Garden?
ThymeZone
It’s the face to face contact that really makes it satisfying for me.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Sorry. MUP-based Freudian slip. myiq can explain.
Ninerdave
F you’re obviously an idiot or spoof.
Yeah no shit. They also are depressed and hate McCain, however hate mobilizes them (Barack Hussein Obama).
Clinton ran from the middle and co-opted a lot of the GOP’s policies. Clinton was Big Dog Dem…thus…the pack followed.
yeah..duh…he was a centrist. While that’s not a bad thing, he and the DLC decided that 50+1 was the strategy to follow. I point you to the last 8 years to show why that was wrong.
The Other Steve
Now why is that? Considering the Republicans were claiming he was the second incarnation of Lenin?
And Hillary is worse. She’s Lenin and Stalin combined with Mao and Marx himself, compared to Bill.
Now why is that? Can you answer me how is it a person who just royally pisses off the Republicans, also royally pisses off people who should like who the Republicans are pissed off by?
I’ll give you a hint. It’s how they approach a problem. How they talk about a problem. How they convince people to support their solution.
You are demonstrating it here. You keep telling us that we have to all line up behind Hillary. That we don’t have a choice. She’s slightly better than McCain, and you don’t want that do you? It’s this strongarm tactic.
Obama is a break from every mistake the Democratic party has made for 40 years. He’s different. He doesn’t follow the stale old patterns that everybody expects.
Why settle for the lesser of two weevils, when we have a choice for real honest to God, change?
I want to be able to go into the 2008 election not feeling like our candidate is a embarassment half the time.
Is that so much to ask for?
Asti
Timmeh’s already working on it. I think he and Hillary had a talk on the telephone today.
myiq2xu
Fixt
He he he!
Ninerdave
Why?
Jim
Fuck You Ohio and Texas (and Rhode Island for good measure). Ms. Clinton’s been given new life to disparage another fellow Democrat with attacks that only serve to benefit the Republicans. And if I see another Taylor Marshesque accusation of mysogyny simply because people don’t like Hillary I think I’ll explode. 95%+ of people who don’t like Hillary don’t like her because she’s playing dirty and dragging down the Dem who is most likely the nominee, she’s the best way for McCain to win, and even if she ekes out a victory in November, it will be nothing but a replay of the last 16 years of bitter partisan attacks that accomplish nothing but advancement of the corporate interests.
If the choice in November is McCain or Clinton, this country is fucked up one side and down the other, and frankly it deserves to be mired in the quagmire that is Iraq and the petulant politics of personal destruction that results from Bush Clinton Bush Clinton.
Chris Johnson
I’m just sad for all these Democrats becoming what they fight. I didn’t have to be one of them, and Vermont went for Obama.
Like I said this morning, on another forum- I’m just pleased because I _got_ to go out today (being a Vermonter and all) and vote for a black man named Hussein who was not in favor of war and furthering Bush’s powers.
America isn’t gone yet if, after eight years of total madness, I can still say that. And I’m looking at the media, as well, who were somewhat capable of still interceding so I’d only be given choices they considered ‘electable’. Those guys fucked me a few years ago- remember Dean? Trying to be pumped up, and as we soundmonkeys know, being recorded over a frickin’ shotgun mic that picked up none of the crowd screaming that was deafening the poor sap. BAD MIXING killed that poor fucker and gave us more war, death and economy collapse.
I’m also looking at guys I don’t agree with but who are just as sold out- like the fundamentalist guys who’ve been treated so cynically by political leaders. I’m not going to go along with your game plan but for crying out loud stop voting for guys who mock you and end up dead in wetsuits with dildos up their ass… way too many pseudo-religious-right guys pandering to fundies but really faking it. Don’t let yourself be used, be more critical.
I’m looking at the Clinton crowd, which includes my mom- please, take a moment to stop obsessing over electability and experience and the whole calculus of winning the game and think about what you actually do and decide and intend. If you are so committed to getting your ethics and responsibility into play that you’ll take any angle to win then you don’t have ethics or responsibility. I mentioned Dean, who was riding a big wave of antiwar energy and made no bones about it. He got brought down by political maneuvering at the height (roughly) of Bush’s power, by having his conviction and sincerity exaggerated and used against him. That doesn’t mean you should discard conviction in order to not lose.
In the end, what you’re actually setting out to do matters.
myiq2xu
MUPpets are losing it!
He he he!
ThymeZone
Word.
With that, I must turn in.
Asti
Care to equivocate on that statement because I just don’t see it.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
I’m done being an asshole for the night, so a friendly challenge…
If the Iraq war is pre-emptively stopped, the neanderthal 27% will get vocal as only Limbaugh could train them to do. Threats will be made, policy bills put in jeopardy, and SCOTUS openings slated for center-right bible-thumpers.
Because it will be a necessary trait, I challenge you (in a friendly manner) to find an example where HRC said “fuck the polls, I’m doing what needs to be done”. If you find it, cool, I’ll check it in the morning, because I haven’t seen any example like that.
If you can’t find it, then that’s my counter-argument to Hill-as-an-Anti-War-Candidate, and I don’t have to say much.
Meanwhile, I’m going to try to sleep. Toodles.
myiq2xu
Da Big Bad Clagina has ruined the MUPpet victory party.
Everybody say “Awwwwwwwwwwwwww!”
He he he!
Zuzu
Well, ex-cuuuuuse me.
ThymeZone
Okay, one more post. Gssp.
Yes, vote for somebody you really like. If there was ever a year to do that, this is it. You don’t have to vote for more machine politics.
The Other Steve
Honestly, we’ve got a better chance getting out of iraq with John McCain than Hillary.
Hillary would be too afraid to make that decision, because she might get criticism. So she’d just pass the buck onto the next President. Just like Bush.
This is what makes Obama unique. He’s willing to stand up and do the right thing, even if he might be criticized.
F
A country with over a 400 year history of racism and with an additional 6 year rabid indoctrination in anti-muslim propaganda is going to hate a white woman over a black man with a muslim name. If we’re lucky they be hated equally as much.
Not to excuse Bill Clinton (he should have kept it in his pants), but give me $60 million dollars and 5 years and let me see what I find in your drawers.
????
Don’t be to sure, from reading this blog and others, if Hillary gets the nomination there seems to be a significant “cut the nose off to spite the face” portion to the Democratic party.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
McCain coming over for dinner is making you act funny, dude. If you don’t want to date a guy, just call it off. You can take your mathematical winnar and get your Democratic wish-list :)
Just state that you’re voting for McCain after Clinton. I’ve been predicting this for a week now; make me look good, would’ya?
ThymeZone
myiq, you really are a total ass. You alone are reason to vote against Hillary Clinton. You can judge some people by the people they attract. I don’t want a candidate who attracts you.
prince roy
Ninerdave,
you are sadly shortsighted. HRC is the Kerry of 2008. But you Establishment Dems just don’t get it. HRC will not win in the general, period. Why is it you think right-wing talk radio is getting its listeners to vote for HRC?
I am an Independent and I will not vote for HRC, period. You’ve just made your bed. Get ready for at least four more years of nightmares.
jcricket
If nothing else, I’ll match whatever TZ gives to Obama in donations to Clinton.
My final thought of the day/night is: McCain is from AZ, TZ is from AZ, they’re both older than dirt and cranky. Ever seen them together?
F
1993 Healthcare policy
jcricket
The only response I can think of is: Right back atcha buddy.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
WHEN SHE WAS IN OFFICE. FUCKING. DUH.
Stop this bullshit with her playing presnit when she wasn’t elected. Any criticism she faced then reflected on the actual President, not her.
If I thought a first spouse would get the job done, I’d elect Kucinich and let the wife offer herself to the soldier that returns with Osama’s head. Be over in 6 months, and the boogeyman would be done with.
myiq2xu
He he he!
Asti
No, but I don’t have to, they look nothing alike. Actually, TZ is not older than dirt, he is older than ass produced mcinder blocks. Dirt is MUCH older!
The Other Steve
Wasn’t the 1993 Healthcare policy another example of trying to ram something down people’s throats instead of advocating for it and selling it?
Hmm, I’m sensing a pattern here.
Anyway, i gotta go to sleep. I’m going to start looking for a new job in the morning.
myiq2xu
Looks like I’ll be voting for Hillary in November.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
hahahahahahahah yeeeeeeeah.
no. That is not in the domain of possibilities. You’re either going to get McCain versus ~Obama~, or McCain versus “OMG Obama just smiled at me!! OMGOMGOMG I’m SOOO going to change my vote to OBAMA he’s soooo dreamy OMGOMG”.
So it’s your choice. Weak Obama or Strong Obama. How do you like your party’s chances? :)
Asti
The GOP remembers the Clintons, and you can be sure they will fight harder to not do that one again. They do not remember an Obama presidency because there wasn’t one, and Obama at least talks about faith, something Hillary NEVER does. I’m a white woman, I’d rather vote for a black man than Hillary. I think you’re misguided on your “racists” history notion. The history of Clinton is so much fresher in their minds. The last time I talked to my brother, he ranted for an hour about Bill Clinton’s interfering in the aviation industry (on my dime). He will NEVER forget.
By the way, take a look at the Freeperland McCain Wins Nomination thread. Those people are NOT happy at all.
Ninerdave
I’m sorry, what in my last two anti-HRC screeds did you interpret as a vote for HRC? If she gets the nomination (which at this point could only be through back doors), I probably won’t vote for president.
F
You know one of my biggest complaints with Obamiacs is there is significant lack of consideration for Hillary’s work (yes work) on the 1993 Healthcare policy. You all seem to think that she just rolled her eyes and waved her hands and the policy was written and submitted to congress. She worked as hard as any cabinet secretary to get the facts and write the policy and then she worked just as hard to line up support. I willing to bet that she had a more difficult time seeing as how many people didn’t take her seriously, there was probably a good portion who saw her just “the president’s wife” someone to humor.
You don’t think the criticism reflected on her, dude get a fucking grip and come back to reality. If it didn’t reflect on her how come Obama used a similar “Harry and Louise” ad to challenge her current healthcare plan.
wow,
I guess being someones “wife” disqualifies you from ever being president. I wonder if Hillary is elected president do we go back and retroactively take away Bill’s presidency.
Asti
OMG ::blush::
That was supposed to be mass produced cinder blocks. Hmmmm, this computer does have a great sense of humor sometimes.
Ninerdave
…and if Hillary scams the nomination, I’ll vote for Gravel…or just not vote. Probably Gravel…he is the Zen Master after all.
Asti
Sounds like YOU are the one who needs to come back to reality. Which closed door talks regarding foreign policy was she in on again?
She was a first lady, she worked hard on healthcare. Her time in the WH as a first lady does NOT qualify her to say she has experience in the realm of running the country.
Temple Stark
This thread seemed to show / reinforce these things: Thymezone doesn’t do numbers or geography well at all and p. luk does. Both get disgustingly overbearing, with Thymezone and all his persona posse staying at the high needle point longer.
That is all. Good day. Oh yeah, and everybody please don’t forget to breathe.
– temple
Asti
Good luck TOS.
Ninerdave
You know one of my biggest complaints with Obamiacs is there is significant lack of consideration for Hillary’s work (yes work) on the 1993 Healthcare policy.
Ninerdave
Temple:
Persona = keyword…also see Spoof.
F
Asti,
Who has ever had the experience or is qualified for running the country when they get the job?
My request is that Caidence (fmr. Chris) and others like him don’t automatically disqualify her because she was “only” the first lady.
I have a few questions for you;
– Do you share your problems with your significant other?
– Do you ask your significant other for advice on your problems
– Have ever followed your significant other’s advice on your problems?
If you answered yes to any of these questions then why can’t:
– You believe Bill Clinton shared his policies thoughts with Hillary.
– You believe Bill Clinton asked Hillary for advice on his policies
– You believe Bill Clinton followed Hillary’s advice on his policies.
Which would make her in some cases more experienced and more qualified than most of the men who became president.
srv
You people are such sheep. I cannot wait for the riots in August. If you want to talk, I’ll be up at Red Rock watching the city burn.
Asti
The fact is she’s using that time in the WH to say she has experience for the job. I don’t expect anyone who has never served as president to know what it’s like, unless they were VP (the VP does have a pretty good idea what goes on in that position).
Talking things over with Bill in bed at night does NOT mean she has the experience she is claiming. No way, no how!
Asti
Sheep? I think you don’t know me very well.
You would sit and watch riots? That’s pretty sick.
By the way, if anyone is rioting, it will be the Clintonites because they don’t have the delegates.
F
I disappointed in you, I see upstream that you say you’re a woman, yet you seem to think the only time Bill would have spoken with Hillary on policy issues would have been over “pillow talk”.
Come on now, break out of that “she is just his wife mentality”, Hillary Clinton is an accomplished lawyer with a great deal of knowledge on various issues, why wouldn’t her husband ask her to either join him at meetings or sit in on meetings and give him feedback and advice.
Temple Stark
>>OMG ::blush::
That was supposed to be mass produced cinder blocks.
Shit I read that as i rapidly scrolled back up the thread and didn’t have clue. Now that I get down to the, er, bottom again it made me laugh really loudly. Funny as all hell. Wipes tears away.
Asti
The problem with your premise is that she WAS only the first lady.
F
Asti,
I disappointed in you, I see upstream that you say you’re a woman, yet you seem to think the only time Bill would have spoken with Hillary on policy issues would have been over “pillow talk”.
Come on now, break out of that “she is just his wife mentality”, Hillary Clinton is an accomplished lawyer with a great deal of knowledge on various issues, why wouldn’t her husband ask her to either join him at meetings or sit in on meetings and give him feedback and advice.
myiq2xu
After a month of watching rally bad victory dances I finally get to show my moves and all I get are hisses and boos.
The MUPpets are lousy winners and worse losers. This thread looks like a bunch of attack chihuahuas went wild in here.
Tonight Hillary snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
Starting tommorrow she will be starting her “Snatch of Victory 2008” tour.
Asti
Your appealing to my womanhood isn’t going to change my mind, state secrets are still state secrets and Hillary was NOT privvy to them. She was not welcome in closed door meetings and if she were, I’d have a bigger problem with that. She WAS just a wife. Being a lawyer was not a prerequisite to being first lady. Laura Bush was a librarian. Would you like her involved in talks choosing our foreign policy with North Korea or Pakistan?
Socraticsilence
The problem with citing 1993 Health Care Reform is that it was a massive failure, seriously I should take Hillary’s complete and utter failure to get something through a Democratic Congress as a reason to vote for her?
Socraticsilence
The problem with citing 1993 Health Care Reform is that it was a massive failure, seriously I should take Hillary’s complete and utter failure to get something through a Democratic Congress as a reason to vote for her?
Asti
What did we lose? Obama still has a much larger proportion of delegates. Where is Hillary going to take those delegates from?
The only bright side I see to all this division lately is that the GOP is as unhappy with their candidate at the same time Democrats are divided between two candidates. While some Dems are talking of possibly sitting out the GE, so are a bunch of Repubs.
F
My appeal to your womanhood was for you to breakout of the “she is just his wife mentality”, if you don’t want to thats your prerogative.
As far as her being privy to “state secrets”, show me where I said she was privy to any secrets. Remember, before the “gang that couldn’t govern straight” came into office there were whole swaths of the government that did important work, which was not classified. And to compare her qualifications and career ambitions to Laura Bush is to do a disservice to every married woman who has ever wanted a career.
Laura is quite happy to be Lucy Ricardo to George’s Rick Ricardo.
Asti
How about because she wasn’t elected to be there?
When Clinton/Gore was running for office, Hillary’s name was not on the ticket. When Clinton/Gore won, that did not give Hillary bonifides to sit in on meetings and give advice. I proposed last week that some here would like to see marital communities elected rather than individuals. I see I was right.
Why don’t you admit it, you don’t really want Hillary to be president, you want Bill to be put back in office for a third and possibly fourth term (I wouldn’t put it past him to have thought up the idea himself, actually).
srv
Yes, the failure of the only major progressive initiative since, oh, the Civil Rights Act is dispositive of Hitlery and all the reason to support another candidate whose platform is well to the right of Al Gore.
Asti
From Wikipedia:
Hostess of the White House, that is the official role. If you don’t like it, why didn’t you scream about this BEFORE Hillary was the presidential candidate?
F
Socraticsilence,
Please reference the entire post
Caidence (fmr. Chris) asked me to “find an example where HRC said “fuck the polls, I’m doing what needs to be done”” I immediately pointed out her attempt at passing the 1993 Healthcare policy.
Sorry it didn’t pass, but for no lack of trying on her part and as Caidence (fmr. Chris) requested this was a policy where she said “fuck the polls, I’m doing what needs to be done”. And as we know at the time it rebounded negatively against her and it has recently been attempted to be used against her (Obama’s Harry and Thelma ad) again.
myiq2xu
F: If you keep using logic, common sense and those pesky facts the MUPpets will kill you and eat you.
F
Wow,
Nice assumption leap, so because I want Hillary for president that means I subconsciously want Bill for a third term. Quick question, sometimes when Hillary is dressed a certain way I think she is kind of Hot does that mean I subconsciously think Bill is Hot, would that make me teh Gay?
Woman are you fucking stoned? Can’t I just not think she is a great candidate and would make a good president in her own right?
As far as her bonifides to sit in on meetings, as we’ve learned from this administration the president has a hell-of-a-lot of leeway in appointing whoever he wants to do whatever he wants them to do in his administration. And for you libertarians out there the Constitution is very circumspect when it comes to the presidents authority to staff his administration.
myiq2xu
Not according to the MUPpets.
Anyone who is (allegedly) supporting Hillary must have an ulterior motive. Either that or they are stupid stupid stupid.
The MUPpets are so blinded by their HillaryHate that they simply cannot conceive that someone could genuinely like her as a candidate.
And it is heresy to them for someone to suggest that He could lose to Hillary in a fair contest with informed voters.
myiq2xu
Comedy gold from the Great Orange Satan himself:
Yeah, that whole “race card” meme materialized out of thin air.
Martin
Looks like Hillary picks up about 7 delegates for the night. Moral victory perhaps, but her winning margins need to go up again to pull this off.
Anyone think her situation will improve in Wyoming or Mississippi? Yeah, me either.
Martin
I don’t think you are stupid or have an ulterior motive. I used to like her as a candidate until I felt she was minimizing my vote and noticed her lying. My disappointment is because I expected more of her.
I would argue that this is one of the most informed primaries of the last two decades and the rules were set by the party, so I can hardly see how it is unfair. Bill even helped design Texas’s shitty delegate system.
Martin
Donna Brazile isn’t thin.
Rarely Posts
I live in FL. I voted for Hillary. My vote should count. Screw the DNC and their punishments.
Xenos
Then write your congressmen, senators, and cc Howard Dean demanding that a fair primary election be held before the convention.
Rarely Posts
We already had one.
dslak
Given that the fairness of an election is determined by whether Hillary won it, I can see no reason to think that the Florida primary would be considered to be unfair.
Brachiator
Because he didn’t. She lacked security clearance to be able to just sit in on meetings, and there is little evidence of her active participation in much of anything. In fact, Bill Clinton has withheld presidential papers and documents which might shed light on her degree of participation in anything having to do with the White House.
Instead we are left with this fuzzy, undefined idea of her experience and the idea that her proximity to the presidency has endowed her not only with a deep knowledge of its operations and the ability to execute the office.
This thing is so hazy that some apparently believe that she has more working experience than the guy who was actually VP. I suspect that soon the myth will be that Clinton didn’t even have a VP, or a cabinet, just Hillary giving him all that good advice.
The irony is that none of this is even remotely feminist. Senator Clinton gains benefit from the decidedly old fashioned but still potent romance novel fantasy that being the wife of the leader automatically endows her with his power, knowledge and authority. Or that she is the power behind the throne. Or that Bill could not make a decision without her advice and assistance and so she is naturally his successor.
And some seeking a return to the good time of “the Clinton years” clearly are looking to a return of the twin stars of Hillary and Bill, the same team as before, just with the names reversed, but not really a Hillary Clinton independent of her husband. It’s really not much different from the romantic promise of a “Grey’s Anatomy,” where a female surgical intern is as accomplished as a surgical chief of staff just because they are “soul mates.”
And politically, it is not much different from the nepotism fantasy that held that Dubya was experienced enough to be president because he obviously had learned everything at his daddy’s knee, and besides, would have all of his daddy’s advisors to guide him.
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
John S.
Thus far, it seems that Clinton picked up a net gain of a couple delegates. That’s a rousing victory, there.
Thanks for teaching Obama a valuable lesson, Hillary. It will benefit him well in November.
chopper
congrats to hillary! so it looks like she won the delegate count yesterday? how much has she eaten into obama’s lead?
Onslow
.
WHY THE CLINTONS WON’T BE RELEASING THEIR TAX RETURNS?…
http://thememlingindex.com/hillary_clinton_net_worth-wealth.html
.
chopper
do you think the michigan primary was fair? i’ll note that hillary ran unopposed.
chopper
sounds like the inevitable excuses are being tested. i’d honestly find a different laboratory than BJ.
z
Myiq,
She can’t win fairly with an informed electorate. That is obvious from the delegate count. Most of the informed electorate has already awarded those delegates to Obama. She managed to catch a few more delegates than Obama in this race, by going negative. Not negative in an ethical way (ie attacking his stance on the issues), but negative in a characterize-Obama-as-scary way. Cheap tricks that don’t act to inform the electorate at all. If she pulls this off, it will be by bribing the superdelegates. Again, that won’t be winning fairly with an informed electorate.
D-Chance.
Oh, my! Mr Cole, separate the kids, they’re FIGHTING! Although leftist cannibalism is quite amusing from a distance…
Hillary may have squeaked by in Texas; but in the reddest of red counties here in deep East Texas (REAL East Texas, not that faux Southeast/coastal Beaumont area stuff), Obama outpaced her by a 60/40 margin.
Just to show how fucking insanely red the area is… the headlines in this morning’s local paper? “McCain Clinches” in bold-type with “Hillary in Comeback” in smaller, non-bold font underneath with a large half-page pic of McCain and his wife. Of course, the local political power is hard-right Republican, and the local paper lapdogs with the best of ’em.
Personally, my vote for Ron Paul was for naught, but I see that he will at least be returned to Congress to vote “no” on dozens (hundreds?) more pieces of crap legislation. Good to know there’s one true little-“c” conservative still out there…
chopper
maybe this is some sort of modification of the ‘the states she loses don’t matter’ meme, only now with ‘…and are full of uninformed jackasses’.
Xenos
Democracy means the people are allowed to make stupid choices. Thisa includes bickering over lost causes and such. The only alternative is a disciplined, hierarchical party like the GOP, and all the ugliness that entails.
The Democratic party is not a ‘father knows best’ party – it is more like a ‘mom and dad are out of town so let’s have a kegger’ party. We get what we want and what we deserve, even if it means a trip to the emergency room by the end of the night. Those of us who are lifelong Democrats like it that way.
Dug Jay
According to a BEEB reporter, former President Bill Clinton is said to have told close friends late last night that, “We’re going to kick his XXXXX ass all the way back to that madrassa he went to in Indonesia.”
Rarely Posts
I don’t live in MI, but I’d say Obama made the choice not to be on the ballot.
He and Hillary were on the ballot in FL. Neither campaigned. We had a record voter turn out. Frankly, I don’t care if it makes Hillary look like a craven bitch to want these votes to count. My vote should count regardless of whom I voted for.
D-Chance.
Wow. Just visited the Dish, and… Sully went all drunken HDS last night, didn’t he? Even moreso than normal. Four different “well, she only won because the bigots voted for her” postings? Geez-o-flip!
Hillary won a tough fight last night. It was impressive. It showed a political toughness that her “tears on the eve” scenes were denying in previous states. At this point, she SHOULD stay in the race all the way. She has the momentum, she’s on the offensive, she’s finally displaying the savvy that many knew she had in her all along. Maybe she is the best (wo)man for the job, after all. It should make for a fun convention in Denver.
chopper
obama went with along with the rules of the organization that put on the primary election. same with FL.
listen, if the DNC doesn’t certify your election then the votes don’t count for delegates. just as if i mail in my absentee presidential ballot two weeks into december it aint gonna count towards any electors. rules is rules.
FL and MI can have a DNC-approved election anytime it wants, with actual campaigning and a full turnout (instead of tons of people staying at home because they know their vote won’t do anything).
ntr Fausto Carmona
Fun for McCain? Certainly!
sparky
could we puh-leeze stop using terms like “momentum”? a couple of weeks ago HRC had double digit leads in OH and TX. then they were “firewall” states where she had to win big margins to stay in the race. now she has won–barely–in TX, it appears and moreso in OH. but without any appreciable difference in delegates. if you think that means she ought to stay in the hunt, ok. but using bs terms like momentum is just aimless spin that gets people annoyed. stick to facts, please.
chopper
i saw the post today (or maybe the daily news) calling it ‘comeback kid II’. unfortunately, when bill turned it around in 92 it was early in the game. its a bit late for any feasable comeback, unless she somehow wins every state by huge (and i mean huge) margins up until the convention.
i mean, yesterday was a big win for hillary, her biggest (really, her only) winning day so far in the race. and she’s still only going to walk away with less than 10 delegates over obama.
it’s just too late in the game for a comeback. it’s like getting a touchdown with 10 seconds left in the game, but the other team is still ahead by 10.
Rarely Posts
The rules didn’t prevent Obama from being on the ballot.
I understand it’s the DNC’s problem. Believe me, they haven’t received a dime from me since they made the decision not to count our votes.
Tons of people didn’t stay home in our primary. We had a record turn out.
chopper
actually, it’s FLs problem. the democratic primaries are run by the DNC. they wrote the rules a long time ago. FL broke those rules, and the DNC layed out a punishment for it.
if FL wants the DNC to certify its delegates, then it can have a proper primary anytime it wants. there’s been an open offer on the table from the DNC to have a proper primary.
JGabriel
I was really looking for more talk about Buffy and the Mayor in this thread.
C’est la vie.
.
Chuck Butcher
Some of you folks keep saying DNC punished MI/FL, what DNC said was Democratic Primaries are held under these rules and something else is not a Democratic Primary. FL did not hold a Democratic Primary, whatever “Rarely” seems to think he did, he didn’t vote in a Democratic Primary. His Republican Legislators saying it was doesn’t make it so, and neither does Hillary saying so. Blaming DNC for Republican whack jobs’ doings is about stupid. This has been pointed out to “Rarely” and he gives a shit. The media said punish so that’s his rant, it ain’t so. He may have voted for a property tax measure and some other stuff that have nothing to do with a Presidential nomination, but that’s FL’s stuff and has squat to do with the rest of us – who’d be happy to see FL have an actual Democratic election or caucus.
HRC has more reason than most yahoos to know exactly what happened in FL and she lies about it. If this is representative of her “experience” you can sure have it.