If this tragedy had happened last week, would Don Imus have lost his job with CBS?
Our media has proven they are completely incapable of carrying two thoughts at the same time, and I think the Imus story would have quickly disappeared and he would have kept his job.
Your thoughts?
*** Update ***
L0ok, folks. A few quick notes:
1.) This was not my first thought about the event- my first thought about the event was how horrible it was, and that I really, really felt (and still do) feel awful for all the parents and families who are right now TERRIFIED that their loved one may have been killed or injured. I feel horrible for the family of the gunmen, who now are going to live the rest oftheir lives without their son and have the added weight of knowing that their baby boy is one of the worst mass murderers in American history. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
2.) My second thought was that if this happened in Iraq, Powerline would be touting the stats as proof that the surge is working.
3.) Later on, I wondered what the impact would be on the Gonzalez hearing. Apparently, Pat Leahy felt the same way, as he moved the hearing back.
4.) And then, I thought about this. And I don’t think I am wrong- if this had happened last week, Imus would not have been fired. I feel relatively confident with that assertion, although it is on that can never be proven. Sure there was internal pressure at the networks to fire Imus, but it was the pressure from the media frenzy that fueled things and pushed it over the top. Had this shooting happened last week, the fuel to the Imus firing would have been neutralized. I don’t think that is even a controversial statement, other than the fak controversy some of you will try to create by pretending that I am somehow insensitive for suggesting this.
What you should realize though, is that there will be all sorts of stupid “lessons” learned this week. Pro-gun activists will be thrilled to use this as an example that more guns are needed everywhere. Anti-gun activists will pretend that this could have been stopped with more gun control. Sane people will ignore all of them.
So stop pretending I am some sort of awful person for asking this question. The simple fact of the matter is this event, while horrifying and tragic for those involved, will not impact 99.9% of us. I will not be traumatized, I will not be afraid to walk on a college campus, I will not live in fear every day. I can empathize with the families of the victims, but I can not pretend that I will personally live in pain because of this tragedy. If you want to, go for it.
Crazy people do crazy things, and sometimes they do crazy horrible things. That is the big lesson.
chopper
people are dumb.
that is all.
RSA
There would have been an easy linkage (which doesn’t disprove your assertion about the media): Imus is saying nasty stuff about college students, like the ones that got shot. It would have blown up on him even faster.
Zifnab
Don Imus has been saying stupid, racist shit for the past 30 years. That he lost his job last week has nothing to do with what he said but when he said it and who was listening. I’m still amazed he managed to lose his job at all and I suspect it has much more to do with him being on TV – see: Rush Limbaugh as a football commentator race-baiting McNab and Ann Coulter every time she gets near a camera in general – than it has to do with being an idiot in a cowboy hat. So, shorter answer, yes he’d still have his job, but he’d probably lose it anyway in a year or so for something else.
I’m personally still floored that Glenn Beck manages to cling to his slot, although I suppose compared to Nancy Grace, he’s a breath of fresh air.
Otto Man
Hard to say, but I think your basic assumption is right — the 24/7 cable media, for all its reach and all its time to fill, really can only focus on one thing at a time.
Pat Leahy just postponed the Abu Gonzales hearing until Thursday. He said it was out of respect for the VT victims, but I’m sure he realizes that this is an event of major political importance that would be completely ignored by the media as they focus on the current tragedy.
Punchy
You know who IS keeping their job cuzza this? Alberto.
They’ve postponed the hearings, but it wont matter. CNN is going full shooting, 24 hours a day until Saturday. Bet the hizzy on it. Al will lie his ass off, Congress will call shenanigans, and not one media outlet will even mention it.
Rome Again
My thoughts are that after you clearly stated your last post on Imus was THE last post, it clearly isn’t. I’m beginning to notice a bit of obsessive behavior in you Mr. Cole (not that that’s a BAD thing).
There are good obsessions and then there are not-so-good obsessions. This one, I believe falls under the latter.
But, to answer the question, I think tragedies of little blonde females lost, missing, etc… and mass tragedy have become like bread at the Roman circuses. Of course, few would be paying attention to the Imus thing.
Joel
1) Imus got fired because sponsors abandoned his show. Nothing makes CBS – or any other corporation – move faster than a real threat to the bottom line.
2) The sponsors abandoned the show because of negative headlines.
3) If Imus had made his statements today, there wouldn’t have been headlines about it.
Ergo, he would still have his job.
Pb
Better yet…
Thanks to Don Imus and now this, Iraqis are now safer, and the Justice dept is off the hook–until the latest dead horse is fully flayed, of course. Yes, the media has all the focus and depth of a rabid ferret on crack–if that.
Rome Again
Well, when you put it that way, I see a new conspiro-whacko theory that this gunman was a BushCo robotic manchurian candidate. Queue the crazy talk in 5, 4, 3, 2…
Zifnab
Wow, you act like the media would have given two shits about the attorney scandal if there hadn’t been a shooting. CNN does not want to cover these proceedings. Period. FOX just wants to heckle from the bleachers. MSNBC wants to pretend its not a clone of the two big news networks and while Olbermann will give this plenty of attention you can expect it to go right over the radars of everyone else.
But if it hadn’t been a shooting in VA, it would have been a fire in California, or a dead missing blonde girl in Aruba, or a fake bomb threat in Wyoming, or something, ANYTHING, to get the cameras off Congress doing its job. I’m sure, as a last resort, they’d regress to filming the tombstone of ANS in wall-to-wall tribute coverage for the tenth week running.
Chris
Here’s my question: If this happened next week, would the media actually be reporting the story that came out today about how France told the CIA about Al Qaeda’s plan to hijack an airplane in January, 2001? It seems to me that this should actually be a much bigger deal.
Rome Again
C-span still works, doesn’t it?
Jake
My thoughts?
Anyone who reads about a bunch of people being picked off like flies and wonders how their deaths would impact the career of some washed up tedious old fart needs a check up from the neck up.
For starters.
That’s what I think.
Undeniable Liberal
It would have been a NON-EVENT. Good move by Leahy to postpone, and from what I have seen the shooter was Asian. Al Qaeda in Japan?
At least the White House expressed concern while pandering Bush’s base, the NRA.
These people are disgusting.
grumpy realist
Well, Jake, considering that the media collectively seem to have the attention span of a goldfish with ADTD and the morals of an Enron executive, it’s a decent question.
Gotta feed the media beast….
gus
Your point is well taken, though Jake’s right that you should have picked a more important issue than Imus. The AG scandal would have been a better pick. This just makes my pick in the ‘when does Alberto go” pool (answer: when Bush does) look more depressingly correct.
Steve
This Wall Street Journal article is a must-read for anyone who wants to understand how the Imus deal went down. I can’t recall if it was already linked on this blog.
The Imus flap, of course, has a familiar feel to anyone who’s been living in America a while. But one thing that makes it different from past incidents, as the WSJ article reminds us, is that there were a lot of offended black people who were in a position to do more than just bloviate Sharpton-style.
The WSJ notes, for example, that the CEO of American Express, one of the first sponsors to pull its advertising, is black. Similarly, a lot of black employees at MSNBC were apparently dismayed at the network’s initial response and made their feelings known, leading to followup discussions and reconsideration of the decision. The lesson is that there’s more fallout than there used to be from making a racist remark, because blacks are in a position to do more than just threaten boycotts.
When I related this point to my wife her reaction was: “Where were all the women in this?” Good question. The same logic would hold, but the WSJ didn’t focus on that angle, so I’m not sure to what extent it played a role.
The Kid
Quit sucking on Imus’ kneecaps, Mr. Cole.
Dreggas
Agreed it’s 24/7 tabloid Television passed off as news. Not to make light of the tragedy (and believe me I am not) the talking heads will start peddling sensationalized talking points, the shooter will be dissected in the press and conspiracy theories will abound about “why he did it”. I can see it now “VT shooter has possible links to martian space mutants from venus”.
To answer John’s question, Dead bodies would win out in news coverage over a washed up shock jock calling someone (anyone) names any day. It’s part of the relentless death obsessed media. There’ll be expose’s, exclusives, and all other kinds of complete and utter bullshit that will turn a tragedy into a National Enquirer spectacle all because that’s what this country has come to with regard to news, dumbed down to a few lines with no analysis.
Temple Stark
Look, !@#$% blaming the media, people. How any Don Imus posts shot through the blogosphere as well. How many posts in the blogosphere on this will happen as everone tries to examine all sides. Look at the “headline first, story second” behavior of quite a few bloggers just to get a few extra Google dollars.
There is obsessive compulsion on many issues, many of which people who think consider unimportant (anna nicole). Yet, they still follow this stuff excessively on blogs and regular media, and plenty of blogs put their two cents in because …. it draws readers. It’s a disgusting trait, but media is not alone in this urge to fall to the lowest common denominator. “The media” like the blogosphere also cannot be considered an all-inclusive label. There’s national, state, and local media for a start.
(Incomplete thoughts, but “blame the media” is just to !@#$ing easy to say without thought and without looking at people who watch, listen and read. It’s easier when many bloggers have a built-in interest to say they are the better option. I have seen this claim less and less, which is good. Both have so much to offer, but they are mostly quite different purposes at hand)
Geoduck
I don’t seriously believe that is what happened, but the thought did immediately cross my mind that Dick Cheney would order the deaths of 60 college students if it helped his cause, and he’d do it without a twinge.
Temple Stark
typo fix, sorry … how many Don Imus …
ThymeZone
I think that it was just a matter of time before Imus got himself fired. Surprised it didn’t happen sooner.
So events might have saved him this time, but he’d get himself fired later.
Rome Again
I’m not so sure. It seems to have taken a long freakin’ time to get to that point. I would have liked to have seen him sent packing years ago, personally.
jg
Sponsors wouldn’t have pulled the ads from his show? I doubt it.
tBone
Two thoughts:
1) Yeah, you’re right. Imus would probably have kept his job in the circumstances you describe.
2) Bringing this up now is in extremely poor taste, at best. Imus got fired, get the fuck over it already.
ThymeZone
True, but things take a long time. It was a long time before Rosa Parks said no to the bus driver.
Don Rickles, to me, was more obnoxious than Imus, and he’s making commercials these days. Rush is going strong.
Coulter’s book was at Amazon Ranking Number One just last summer.
Who wants to argue that Imus is worse than Coulter?
Paddy O'Shea
People still care about Don Imus?
Maybe he’s become an Anna Nicole Smith figure for news bloggers. Or something.
John should obsess over soemthing else.
Salty Party Snax
I feel sorry for his wife and kid. Can you imagine having to hang around that turquoise Arizona vanity ranch all day with that cranky old bastard?
I’ll bet he thought he had friends. The only time his phone will ring is when AARP calls.
Imus fans should relax. Fox will pick his ass up off the floor and use him for whatever purposes they deem fit.
Face
What Rome said, with a reality check.
p.lukasiak
John….
this is a meaningless event. The best course of action is to respite the grief of the loved ones of the victims, and don’t contribute to the idea that any meaning can be drawn from it — or be even more disrespectful, and turn this into a disgusting meta-event.
Not that I don’t agree with you. Its just that there is really nothing meaningful to say about what happened, nevertheless the media will feel compelled to talk about it — and talk about people talking about it — and writing about what the media says about a meaningless tragedy is disrespectful to the families.
I’d prefer that you write about Cindy Sheehan or Micael Moore, and for the next four days will refrain from criticizing you for ANYTHING you say about those two if you will respect the grief of the families involved here, and make this your last post on this subject.
Salty Party Snax
I think watching Imus on MSNBC every morning was an important part of John Cole’s daily regime. Now he’s going to have to find somebody else to have breakfast with.
ThymeZone
The ranch is in New Mexico.
Rome Again
The only good thing I can say about Ann Coulter is that I didn’t turn on my favorite news channel each weekday morning and see her fugly face and feel compelled to turn it to something else. [which doesn’t meant that I don’t turn her off, because I do if I’m not in the mood to scream at her presence on my teevee].
Rome Again
In this case it is, I can think of a good obsession though. As a matter of fact, I’m thinking of it right now. ;)
Rome Again
Now without the uproar they wouldn’t. That uproar signified dollar signs, not open mouths.
tBone
All right, my post above was a knee-jerk reaction. Apologies, John.
I still think you should give the Imus thing a rest, though. How about an update on Cindy Sheehan’s uterus tree?
Grrr
Yup. But delaying it till Thursday will make zero difference.
This is going to be breakfast, lunch and dinner for every cable news channel until…well, you know…we start a war with Iran or something.
Rome Again
Sorry, I don’t know my ring finger from my index finger apparently.
Rome Again
Oh, John, I don’t think you’re an awful person, okay? Stop it!
Chad N. Freude
My first thought when I heard about it this morning. Well, actually it was more like the Bush League set this up to build a wall of media noise around Gunseles and Co., that war thing, etc.
And while John may be obsessing about Imus, I think his point is well taken. The monstrous crime, the lurid affair, the horrific natural disaster trump everything else (until a new catastrophe comes along). This is not disrespect, it’s an observation/question on a different subject.
Chad N. Freude
Actually, it wasn’t my first thought, but it did occur to me.
sglover
Timing’s everything. Daniel Carleton Gajdusek managed to come to the attention of law enforcement right before the Unabomber got arrested. Diverted by a new shiny sordid object, our Attention Deficit Disorder media never got the chance to rub its thighs and hyperventilate about the Nobel Prize-Winning Pedophiles Threat.
jake
Sharing your thoughts can be a good thing. (Unless the thoughts involve Ann Coulter and Reddi-Whip.) After your initial post combined with the snark in the previous post about rappers, my initial response was warranted.
For my part, I read the original post several times trying to see if there was anyway I could be misinterpreting it, looking for the the winky emoticon, anything that might signal you were doing anything but mentioning Imus again in a really bizzare context. Didn’t see it, replied accordingly. Such are the perils of a life in the ‘tubes.
Plus, you broke your promise to let sleeping tedious old farts lie.
Rome Again
Well, I’m certainly glad to hear THAT!
caleb
What do you call it when 30+ civilians die in Iraq?
.
.
.
.
.
.
Monday.
Chad N. Freude
The comparison of the VT tragedy with the Iraq war is wrong, wrong, wrong. You can’t compare a madman invading a college campus with President Bush sending an army to invade … Oh! Never mind.
MobiusKlein
You’re not horrible. It’s called black humor. But I guess I can’t say that anymore either?
RSA
Here’s a bit of context that not everyone may be aware of (I wasn’t, before I looked it up): How many deaths occur per day in the U.S. due to firearms? About 80. How many of these are homicides? About 30. Suicides? 45. All figures from the CDC, for 2004.
This isn’t intended to minimize the tragedy in Virginia, but the background rate of gun violence in the U.S. is worth keeping in mind. Personally, I’d rather have the gun ownership/gun law situation that exists in most European and other first-world countries, but I don’t think there’s any way of putting the genie back in the bottle.
Krista
Indeed. When CNN announced that it was “breaking news” that the students were using Facebook to set up a group to let each other all know that they were okay, I thought to myself, “Self, this is how desperate these 24-hour news channels are to throw something new at us in order to fill in every single second of airtime.” It’s pathetic — when tragic events like this happen, everything happens at once, and then there’s a long stretch of time when nobody knows ANYTHING. So what to do? Why, fill the airwaves with mindless speculation and breaking news about the fact that students use the internet!
I really, really miss the days before dedicated news channels. If anything big happened, they’d just break into your show, let you know, and wouldn’t waste time on this crap speculation and sensationalism.
The Other Steve
God, I hope people are sane.
I was pretty appalled to read something from instapundit claiming if the students had been packing heat, this would have all turned out like a scene from a hollywood movie.
Anyway, so I’m watching this and I’m like… Christ, you guys don’t know anything. they don’t know who the shooter was, what the motive was, nothing. So why don’t you just shut the fuck up and come back with more when you know something new. In the meantime go talk about something else.
srv
Just 4600 under 24 years killing themselves. Obviously, that number would be greatly reduced if they all handguns in their rooms.
Yes, all those beer parties, all those frat fights, all those spectacular break ups, all those kids freaking over flunking out… Why isn’t the NRA handing out pistols at regisration? Do they hate the children?
mrmobi
An excellent point, RSA. The “genie” as you call it, exists because we, as citizens, are too god-damned lazy to challenge the inferior species of faux-hunters who have the big brass balls to argue that handguns are necessary for their “sport.” They call it a “sport.” That tells you all you need to know. You know, like the staged Cheny “hunts” where old white guys get shot in the face because people are drunk on their asses?
John, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever read from you. You believe that dozens of handgun related deaths per day here in our society are necessary, and that anyone imagining a different reality, say like Britain or Canada, is insane. In any case, we shouldn’t try to regulate guns, that couldn’t possibly succeed, and it would be nuts.
But I do sympathize, it’s just crazy to imagine a society without dozens of meaningless gun deaths per day. If we take away their guns, they’ll just use knives or clubs, and we all know it’s just as easy to kill someone with a knife or a club, right? Good reasoning, John. It’s a lot like the reasoning you applied to the Imus thing. Take a pill, please, and stop calling people insane whose only irrational desire is to live in a society without drive-bys.
Signed, COMPLETELY FUCKING KING-HELL BASTARD BAT-SHIT INSANE.
srv
Guns don’t kill people. Handguns kill people.
John is just another airhead who thinks function and purpose make no difference. It’s all apples and apples.
Face
So you’re asserting that 99.9% of your readers dont have kids in college, eh? That’s a pretty bold assertion. Becuase if they do, they most certainly will live in fear for awhile, will be traumatized by the thought of a copycat incident, and will be afraid for their kids for quite some time.
sidereal
Hey, at least you’re honest.
John Cole
You know, yuo might ask me what I think before turning into an asshole, SRV.
Personally, I detest handguns. I see no point in them, I see no utility for them in hunting, and you can defend your home with a shotgun or rifle quite nicely.
Handguns are only used for what I consider antisocial activities, and they are involved in thousands of accidents and crimes every year.
having said that- they are legal, and there are bazillions of them on the street. If you, for one minute, think that some more anti-handgun legislation would have stopped someone hellbent on killing their ex-girlfriend, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.
Richard 23
Considering that handguns (all guns really) were banned on campus, I’m not sure what more gun control you could have in that situation. Someone who is likely to go on a murder spree isn’t going to be too concerned about breaking gun laws, anyway. Obviously.
Knowing that nobody else had a weapon while the shooter did probably gave him a sense of power and entitlement. It emboldened him to go out in a blaze of delusional glory. I can’t authoritatively say that if some of those attacked were packing heat that it would have stopped the atrocity earlier, but it seems possible.
As to whether this happening last week could have saved Imus, I don’t think that question dignifies a response.
srv
Well, mrmobi said you were dumb. I just said you were an airhead.
“insane” policies have to start somewhere.
srv
Simple. Ban handguns. Everywhere. Even for cops. Criminalize it like crack.
Ah, it doesn’t matter how hard we could have made it for criminals to get the tool that commits 90% of armed crimes and 82% of homicides. Somehow they just always will, so we must just throw up our hands and be sane about it.
I’ll defer to your expertise on power and entitlement.
ImJohnGalt
Yes, well, there was a time when the smoking sections of a restaurant were separated from the non-smoking sections by, uh…exactly nothing. Eventually people realized that the only way to eliminate the smoke *inside* the non-smoking area was to eliminate smoking *outside* the non-smoking area.
I’ll leave it to you to extend the metaphor to localized vs. nationalized gun control.
Also, has anyone used this event to show how the surge is working, because Baghdad now has less violence than small US towns?
dslak
I don’t think a university restricting the carrying of guns has anything to do with the Second Amendment, as it’s a public place and thus nobody’s home. Students living in dorms only count as temporary residents and they can have all the guns at their off-campus residence they want.
Second, I’ve worked for campus police at a similarly-sized school to VT, and the officers were always patrolling the campus area and quick to respond to any disturbances. I think an important factor to consider here is that the first shooting likely would have brought most of the police to the scene, and somebody somewhere made an error in judgement in thinking that the shooter had left. Police carry guns, however, so it’s not as if the campus was defenseless.
And, even if people could have guns on campus, it would still be imprudent to have students carrying handguns into classrooms, and the proper response in this situation would still have been to evacuate the students or tell them to stay in their rooms. Just because you have a gun doesn’t make you a hero.
Paddy O'Shea
Why would anyone want to pass a law that would prohibit a foreign national who has been in the country for as little as 6 months from being able to obtain all the guns his little heart desires?
After all, isn’t that one of the great blessings of America?
Wilfred
Paddy’s right. Put another way; Freedom’s just another word for having your college freshman kid get shot to death. It’s like Iraq – sure they’re getting killed by the dozens every day, but they’re free! FREEDOM!
jake
Fixed. In your version the shooter would be the mental equivalent of some kid on a dry campus sneaking a bottle of tequilla into his room and thinking he’s the only one who has a bottle of booze.
Punchy
Wow. I said this fully intending to by hyperbolic, but it appears that it’s pretty damn accurate. So far it’s been non-stop coverage. We’ll see if it lasts until the weekend, but it’s looking that way.
CNN is just a joke.
Wilfred
This is one of the few times I’ve seen domestic CNN the past few years; it’s much worse than CNN International. I see a collusion here between the press and the police (or should I say ‘Law Enforcement’ a truly authoritarian construct) in establishing and controlling the narrative. Now they know who the guy was, that he was a student at VT, etc. Then who the fuck was he: name, nationality, other info? They don’t even say why they don’t know this. Strange delay.
Fox is great for images. Burly (obese) cops running with weapons, dragging bodies out like they were sacks of potatoes. Endless shots of cop cars, swat teams ambulances – all ex post facto attempts at restoring order and the sense of control, at the same time part of the narrative is to blame the local police. The usual schizophrenia.
jake
Ex-girlfriend would have had a chance to knock him over the head, kick him in the goolies, fight back. And if he’d killed her with his bare hands or a blunt object no sane person can argue he would have been able to do the same to 30+ people.
Chris Rock was right. All the guns you can carry, $500 bucks for a bullet.
MathBlock
I temporarily stopped reading your blog until the Don Imus thing might be safely in the past, but I checked in to see what your take on this shooting was, and it was — Don Imus! I’m gone again for another couple of weeks at least. Incidentally, you might want to get some counseling about this obsession you’ve developed. Really. I am becoming worried about you.
jake
That could make sense if you live in a country where people hear: Person of nationality X did a horrible thing, and decide it’s open season on anyone who is or appears to be of that origin.
I can’t speak for other countries but people with the last name of Hussein have been bombarded with death threats by people who are just smart enough to use a phone book. Post Sept. 11th there were a number of “revenge” killings against people who “looked” like terrorists.
Strange delay? Strange country.
Cyrus
Clearly, you’re new here.
Sam Hutcheson
John, you should read this:
http://philnugentexperience.blogspot.com/2007/04/making-carefully-nuanced-distinctions.html
mrmobi
For the record, I didn’t say John was dumb, just that his statement was the dumbest thing I’ve read from him.
Of course, nothing will change. It isn’t just John who’s been brainwashed into thinking nothing can be done about this, it seems to be most of America.
Weapons were prohibited on campus, and Virginia has almost no gun laws. You are prohibited from buying more than one gun without having a license, but there is no background check and no waiting period.
To quote Homer Simpson, who, when he’s told there is a two week waiting period for his handgun, “BUT I WON’T BE MAD THEN!”
Is anyone actually IN a militia anymore? If not, why are we protecting their rights to carry weapons designed specifically to kill people?
Mr Furious
Your transformation from Republicanism must be complete… Bedwetting and/or fear-mongering are part and parcel with those pussies.
mrmobi
That would work, except that only criminals and the rich could shoot people. It’s a start, though.
Mr Furious
Once again, the most brilliant social commentary comes from comedy. That is everything about this gun bullshit in a nutshell.
Mr Furious
No, John, you are not an awful person. not at all. Just honest, and that’s what’s hard for people to handle.
If the people on CNN were honest you’d see them all skipping around the studio, grinning ear to ear with the anticipation of viewers and ratings.
This does only effect a relative handful of people directly, and those who choose to be traumatized from afar.
A terrible, tragic event to be sure. simply horrible. But my early thoughts that this sort of shit happens every day, if not multiple times a day in Iraq don’t make me partisan or awful either. Just honest.
Our whole country brought to its knees by a fluke random event of violence, yet violence we are responsible for directly or indirectly is visited upon people in Iraq who are just as innocent as the VT students.
And, no, if this happened last week, Imus would be on the air.
DougJ
Two thoughts, John:
(1) Good for you for not being afraid to discuss the political dimensions of this.
(2) Tighter gun control laws might have prevented this. Arming students everywhere would lead to a far greater number of such slaughters. Don’t do the Broder “both extremes are wrong” shtick. You’re better than that.
The Other Steve
I’m going a bit out on a limb here, but I don’t think too far out.
If you consider the semi-automatic handgun has been around for just about 100 years now.
And when you look at the tools available 100 years to make something, compared to what is available today through an internet catalog.
I suspect I can build a working replica of the 1911 .45 handgun in my garage. And pack the ammo.
So how are you going to ban guns again?
Andrew
More to the point, how well is that war on crack going?
Rusty Shackleford
So, what John’s asking is, if a bigot makes disparaging remarks in a radio studio but no one is paying attention due to a mass killing, does he still make a sound?
Zifnab
Here’s a thought. Why don’t we give certain people specific training in the use of firearms, as well as education in investigation and crime prevention. Then we can employ these people to patrol our campuses. We can dress them in blue to make them easily identifiable, even give them badges to make them look all offical. We could even give the organization a name, like “the Village People” or “the A Team” or… Oh! How about The Police! We could stick these “police” around campus to actively “police” the campus against not only shootings but theft and vandalism and drunken and disorderly conduct. They could even be used to patrol our highways and encourage people to obey the speed limit.
It’s a revolutionary idea, I know. But I think its worth looking in to.
And I can attach a zippo lighter to a hairspray bottle and make a flamethrower. So why aren’t military grade flamethrowers sold in Walmart?
Heck, hope on Google and find how to make a mean fertilizer bomb too. Why can’t I just go out and buy a claymore mine? There’s a closet industry for this sort of hardware. Why do people hate both our 2nd Amendment rights AND capitalism?
Tim F.
It would help to point out that the student chained the entrances to the class building, so any students who had guns in their dorms could have done what? Stand around shooting their guns in the air? Hey, I have an idea – the kid with a Phalanx depleted uranium chaingun could hose the building on the off chance of hitting the shooter. Yeesh. Even in the NRA fantasy world schools won’t let students come to class armed, so not a damn thing would have happened differently.
DougJ
I heard more than one right-wing commentator suggest that they should let kids come to class armed — that bald guy from Philly who sat in for Glenn Beck on HLN last night and another wingnut (very angry) that I heard on the radio in the shuttle back to my car.
Stu in VA
Your statement regarding Virginia not requiring a background check for a firearms purchase is incorrect. Have a look at the VA State Police website:
Andrew
Not that I’m a fan of their fantasy world, but that is exactly what the NRA types are proposing. In Virginia, there is a strong state constitutional case to be made that a public institution cannot ban guns.
Stu in VA
Damn- until I get a handle on external links on Balloon Juice this is from the VA State Police:
“National and state databases are accessed simultaneously at the time of transaction. Four are maintained by the Virginia Department of State Police, accessible by the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN): Virginia’s wanted and missing persons files and protective orders, Virginia’s criminal history record files, a calendar file on handgun purchases required to monitor and enforce lawful handgun limitations and Virginia’s database of adjudications of legal incompetence and incapacity, and involuntary commitments to mental institutions.
The fifth database accessed during this check is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) which searches the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) consisting of the Wanted Persons File, Protection Order File, Interstate Identification Index (III), Deported Felons File, US Secret Service Protective File, Foreign Fugitive File, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms’ Violent Felon File, and NICS indexes: Illegal/Unlawful Aliens File, Mental Defectives/Commitments File, Dishonorable Discharges, Citizenship Renunciants, Controlled Substance Abuse File and Denied Persons File.”
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm
John Cole
We have a winner.
caleb
Why isn’t the MSM reporting any of the good news that is happening in Virginia?
chopper
yeah, i was wondering whatever happened to crack cocaine. it was wiped off the face of the earth, wasn’t it? isn’t there like one vial left of the stuff in a CDC lab next to the one remaining sample of smallpox?
Zifnab
Basically, the removed all the crack and replaced it with meth, just to see if anyone would notice.
Dulcie
Like that old Folgers commercial – we’ve secretly replaced his usual vial of crack with a vial of meth – let’s see if he notices!
mrmobi
Thanks, Stu, I misspoke.
I still think many of you in here are off-base on this issue, however.
Thirty years ago, before we had Karl Rove, before “framing the debate” I happened to be watching TV here in Chicago and saw someone I knew on the news.
There was some debate at the time about gun registration, and a former high school classmate of mine was in front of the cameras, speaking for the NRA.
His statement ended with, “Registration is tantamount to confiscation.”
Think about that. Thirty years ago, the NRA already had a firm grip on the concept of “framing the debate,” and today, there is none. Of course, today, registration is more common, but the NRA is still able to buy enough support in Congress so that no substantive change ever seems to happen.
I have a dear friend who is way more liberal than I am who also wears blinders on this issue. His contention is that if we are forced to give up our guns, the government has absolute power. I’ve pointed out to him that while you might be able to provide some resistance with a Glock 9mm, it’s doubtful that weapon would do much against an Armored Humvee or Blackhawk helicopter.
In my almost 60 years on this planet, I’ve never owned a gun. I went hunting once as a teen-ager and killed something. It’s the only thing I’ve ever killed. I didn’t like the experience much, and never repeated it.
Too many of you here seem to think that since gun control won’t be a perfect solution, we shouldn’t try. Don’t be quitters, there is a better way.
What do we have to lose?
p.lukasiak
Okay, I know I said I wasn’t going to say anything more about yesterday’s tragedy. And I wouldn’t have…. except that the slimeball in the White House has decided that he is going to attend the memorial service this afternoon.
Just when I thought I couldn’t hold Bush in more contempt than I already do, he manages to achieve a new low.
Is it appropriate for Bush to MAKE a short public statement about this case? Absolutely — there is nothing wrong with Bush saying stuff like “the thoughts and prayers of American are with the families tonight. Is it appropriate for presidential candidates to ISSUE similar statements — yes… but it would be INAPPROPRIATE for any of the candidates to go before the microphones to make that statement — or attend today’s service.
And ts fully appropriate — I’d say required because VT was state school — for the Governor of Virginia and other VA State officials to show up at today’s memorial service — and not inappropriate (though unnecessary) for VA’s Senators and congresscritters to show up. I also wouldn’t have a problem with Bush sending the Secretary of Education.
But this is a memorial service for the VICTIMS… it is their lives that should be the sole focus of the event. With Bush there, he changes the focus to HIM… and he has no real connection with these people, yet the media will play HIS soundbite over and over, changing the focus from the victims to Bush himself.
Then, there is the practical question…. Bush shows up, and security goes WAY up. Everyone who wants to express their grief will be subjected to a search — at minimum they’ll be forced to empty their pocket and go through an x-ray machine — and some of them will be patted down. They will be forced to show ID, which will be checked against lists of “possible security risks”…. and given the careless nature of how this administration defines “security risk” the odds of people being excluded from this ceremony without any real justification are considerable.
Bottom line is that Bush is grandstanding in the most inappropriate way possible. Its pathetic and disgusting.
The Other Steve
This is perhaps the most moronic thing I’ve read all day.
But don’t worry, the day is still young and I have not been over to redstate.com yet.
John Cole
My gut instinct is that your attack on Bush is both unwarranted and historically inaccurate. Did Clinton attend the Columbine funerals? The funerals in Oklahoma City? Was Reagan scum for attending a space shuttle memorial?
And, if I remember correctly, you were most certainly on the “Bush is scum because he doesn’t attend soldier funerals” bandwagon.
Personally, I don’t think he should attend, but I dont think Presidents should ever attend things like these.
You sound unhinged on this one, Paul. He is the President for two more years. Deal with it.
The Other Steve
I’m not a fan of the NRA, but it should be noted that they have done one thing that their opponents have not.
They learn from mistakes, and change their arguments.
No amount of whining is going to stop them.
Andrew
With regard to the possession of arms by the people in such a capacity to fight against government tyranny, this is quite correct.
Some fundamental rights?
The Other Steve
I agree with John Cole on this one. If Bush wants to attend the funeral, that’s actually good. It’d be one of the few times in his presidency where he’s actually responded to an event with something approaching human emotion.
ThymeZone
Sorry, I think I am the most rabid Bush-hater on the board, and I can’t agree with you.
This is standard president stuff. If he didn’t go, somebody would be whipping him for not going.
Let him go to the thing, and get over it, man.
The Other Steve
Your friend is right. If Bush has taught me nothing else, it’s that the 2nd amendment is important.
As for the equipment… Seems to me the US military is having a tough time dealing with an insuregency equipped with small arms over in Iraq and Afghanistan. You think they’d do better in the Ozarks?
It’s not your friend who is wearing blinders.
Tim F.
That is insane. This is college we’re talking about. I knew a guy who made breakfast out of half a bottle of wild turkey and a joint.
Punchy
Sorry, you’re wrong. Bush needs to attend the funerals/memorial service. This was not just a random 187. This was the worst massacre in U.S. history. This is some fucked up shit. He needs to show leadership, resolve, and empathy. Hopefully, he can do it all without his trademark smirk.
Tim F.
Of course the president will attend. Like it or not it’s his job to stand at ground zero with a bullhorn. He even belonged in New Orleans, even though he was wanted there like the clap. I won’t find this remarkable unless Cheney shows up in a clown suit.
Baby Jane
This is probably why people find it easy to point the finger at Bush on this one. This situation requires nothing more than the only thing Bush seems capable of – Lip Service. And, he’s gonna hop to it lickety-split.
Andrew
Well, at least that guy learned some important life skills in school.
A few years ago, there was a case of people openly carrying holstered sidearms in a public mall in Reston, VA. Turns out that it is quite legal in VA. Concealed carry is easily available with a permit.
If people can carry firearms in various manners pretty much EVERYWHERE else in virginia, why not a public school? There are plenty drunk stoners living off campus too, where they can have as many guns as they want, but I haven’t heard about many shootings by dudes looking for Doritos.
srv
Quite well if you count the several hundred thousand non-white folk it put in jail (I’m pretty sure the Imus fans would see that as progress). If you think these handgun nuts would pick their ‘freedom’ over jail, you’ve misplaced your faith in their ‘courage’.
The 2nd Ammendment doesn’t mean what anyone says it means (on either side), and the Court, as usual, runs away from every clarifying anything that really matters. Here we are today, still arguing over Article II powers and the Court is nowhere to be found.
Andrew
Indeed. And those guys in Arkansas know how to aim a rifle from a lifetime of hunting, which is something that most Iraqis don’t appear to have ever learned.
p.lukasiak
john…
as usual, your “gut instincts” are wrong. Clinton went nowhere near the Columbine funerals. THAT tragedy occurred on 4/20/99. Clinton made an appropriate statement the next day….and mentioned it the next day in a talk with Seniors. On May 1, Clinton announced he would be visiting Columbine — and did so a month after the shooting, participating in one public memorial and a number of private meetings with parents and student.
And if you think that VT is the equivalent of the bombing of a FEDERAL building, or the Challenger disaster, you’re an ass (actually your “ass” status has been established, this just re-affirms it.)
I think that I made it clear that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways for the Administration to show the nation’s sympathy to the families. And I will repeat myself…
I’m perfectly capable of admitting that the vehemence of my disaproval is colored by my pre-existing loathing of Bush. So feel free to criticize that — but don’t act as if Bush showing up today is in away way appropriate. Its not.
mrmobi
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
mrmobi
Nicely done, Rusty.
Andrew
What about amendments 9 and 10, and federalism and state constitutional rights?
Firearms are mostly regulated at the state level, leaving aside interstate transfer and restrictions on manufacturing. Virginia’s laws and constitution strongly prohibit government intrusion on the right to own guns.
Zifnab
I’ve got no problem with Bush attending the services and were he any other President I’d probably encourage it. The President carries a spotlight on him and now is the most appropriate time to highlight this tragedy.
However, what I can’t stand is the way the MSM has been breathless in regards to what Bush thinks about the events. In the hours after the shooting, the big three cable providers wouldn’t shut up about “Will President Bush make a statement?” “When will Bush make a statement?” “Bush has said he’s making a statement, and he’ll be doing it in an hour.” “Now its only thirty minutes until Bush speaks.” “Oh my god, he’s speaking!” “The President just commented on the shootings. But we suspect he has more to say. Stay tuned.”
Bush got more attention than the President of the University. Seriously, wtf? It’s like he’s the star in a movie called “America” and nothing else is allowed to have its own moment. Even if he weren’t an incompetent boob, there’s not alot he, or any other President, could do for or about the incident. This isn’t a national emergency. He’s not going to call for any new legislation to address a single incident of gun violence. He’s got no keen insights to add to the news or the investigation. Why the hell do we care about him at the moment?
Dreggas
If I remember correctly a lot of people thought we wouldn’t win the American Revolution since the british were better armed etc. Also as has been said, insurgents in Iraq are taking out Humvee’s with pretty low tech stuff.
srv
Define small arms. Our problem isn’t arms. It’s concealable weapons – handguns. Weapons designed to do one thing – shoot people. If you need a permit to carry one, then they’ve already agreed that the State has the Right to Regulate that weapon and that 2nd Ammendment ‘right’ means it depends.
My Ammendment would do better. Everyone with a handgun gets a choice of a shotgun or hunting rifle as a replacement.
p.lukasiak
These students were NOT serving their country, and the idea that their deaths carry the same weight and meaning as that of a soldier killed in battle is a false equivalence of the highest degree. (Bush’s failure to show up at military funerals is exacerbated by the censorship of photos of the coffins of war dead. The message it sends is “don’t think about the human costs of this war.”)
Clinton’s response was far more appropriate — immediately acknowledge the nation’s empathy toward the Columbine victims, and then butt out until a reasonable amount of time had passed.
Its disgusting enough that the victims and the grief of the survivors are going to be fodder for cable news networks for the next few days. Its the President’s job to lead by example here; not to feed into the ghoulish obsession of the media bent on exploiting this tragedy for market share.
Andrew
This is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the incident here.
You think this guy could only kill people because he had a concealed handgun? You don’t think he could have walked into the building with a carbine in a bag and done the same or worse?
p.lukasiak
I’ve got no problem with Bush attending the services and were he any other President I’d probably encourage it. The President carries a spotlight on him and now is the most appropriate time to highlight this tragedy.
while I think your other points about the media obsession with a Bush statement are spot on, I really have to ask…
What makes you think there is ANY need to “highlight this tragedy”?
Zifnab
Because it happened and it’s because this is how America handles any tragedy. They shine a spotlight on the event, explore it, hopefully find the root of the problem and perhaps extrapolate a solution to prevent it from happening again.
Perhaps its not the best way to handle tragedy, but it’s the American way.
mrmobi
Well said, srv.
Sure, better equipped, but outnumbered, and fighting against a force (the Minutemen) which had six generations of experience under its’ belt. The American Revolution was a case of the militia using guerilla tactics. We were the insurgents back then.
Again, for the record, I’m not proposing banning all guns, just handguns.
John Cole
Paul-
You are still wrong about Presidents attending military funerals. I understand you hate Bush and I have grown to detest him as well. But that doesn’t make the “Bush doesn’t attend military funerals” bullshit anything other than that- bullshit.
Baby Jane
Shorter: Milk it for all it’s worth.
mrmobi
No one is saying that. You don’t think handguns are a huge problem in police work? Please refer to any large police organization in this country, because they think it is.
Yes, Andrew, eliminating handguns will stop all gun violence.
Happy?
mrmobi
I have as bad a case of BDS as anyone here, I think, and I believe Mr. Cole is correct on this one.
I wouldn’t want the smirking chimp at such an event, but he is POTUS, and there isn’t much we can do about that right now.
Andrew
Again, you have as much chance of eliminating handguns as you do drugs. There are 100 million of them here already.
We can’t stop tens of thousands of Mexicans from entering illegally and you think we’ll be able to cut off the flow of handguns?
Maybe this is a method to promote racial equity, by imprisoning a bunch of gun owning rednecks along side the poor black drug offenders?
There is no reasonable way to remove handguns or other small arms from our society, even if it were legal and constitutional to do so.
If you want to reduce gun violence, eliminate and address the reasons for violence: poverty, the war on drugs, mental illness, etc.
p.lukasiak
unresponsive… the question about the need to HIGHLIGHT this tragedy. How to you get MORE than 24/7 cable coverage?
Jake
I have no problem with the President attending such an event and my BDS is bigger than anyone’s. If I bitched about him sitting on The Ranch while N.O. filled up with water I can’t really turn around and bitch because he’s going to Blacksburg.
His security can be handled in a way that allows him to be there without disrupting the event or requiring cavity searches for everyone else.
If it isn’t I’m sure we’ll hear about it.
Zifnab
Oh, I’m sorry. I thought we were refering to intelligent news coverage.
Mr Furious
I reflexively hate everything Bush does and says, and I wasn’t initially upset that he was going to VT, but after pLuk clarified how Clinton handled Columbine, I think that is the more appropriate response.
Of course Clinton had truckloads more tact, class and propriety than Bush, even with the blow jobs.
(Maybe Bush can loosen the event up by “looking for stashed weapons”)
Gah, fuck it. I am fully in the throes of BDS…
Mr Furious
I suspect that this is the case for tweo reasons:
1. The fucking morons on CNN don’t have anything else to say or add.
2. The fucking moron in the White House always keeps you guessing. Does he care? Will he say anything? Will he say it right, or in Bushisms? Will he display emotion or play politics?
Once upon a time the world might naturally turn and wait for comforting and hopeful words from the leader of the free world, Nowadays Bush is a lightning rod and likely to more unwelcome than welcome wherever he goes. He should consider that when trampling his big-ass PResidential footprint all over a freshly wounded community.
srv
Defeatist all the time. Illegal immigration would disappear tomorrow if they were incarcerated like crack users.
90% of handguns would disappear with the right penalties and rewards.
Andrew
Perhaps you’re right. All of the non-criminals might turn them in.
The remaining 10% would be retained by criminals and psychopaths.
Congratulations, you have just disarmed the law abiding populace.
p.lukasiak
His security can be handled in a way that allows him to be there without disrupting the event or requiring cavity searches for everyone else.
maybe it “can” if the event is scheduled weeks in advance….
but this is an impromptu event…
*********
what really disgusts me is that Bush would NEVER show up in front of a crowd of college students like this to give a regular speech. And if VT is like the overwhelming majority of campuses, there are a LOT of people who despise Bush there who would welcome an opportunity to show Bush how they felt about them
So now they have a choice — not attend the memorial service that was designed to allow the campus community to grieve and reassure itself as a community, or allow themselves to be used as props in Bush’s empathy pantomime by no showing him how they feel, or refuse to be props and appear disrespectful to the victims and their families.
No one should ever have to face those kinds of choices — especially the day after a tragic event.
Zifnab
I agree. This kid clearly had easy access to a pair of firearms because of his deep, entrenched mafia ties. Banning the sale of handguns in the US would have had absolutely no effect on keeping a gun out of this kid’s hands.
I also appreciate how you assume that 10% of the population consists of criminals and psychopaths. Perhaps this is why you have such a hard time taking your finger off the trigger.
What we need isn’t more guns, it’s more cops. If the campus had a greater police presence, the casualties would have been less and the situation would have been handled more quickly. Take a look at any major metropolitan area. The crime rate and the police rate are markedly inverse. Guiliani didn’t clean up Times Square by handing everyone Berettas and telling them to fend for themselves.