Yesterday, in a post about Dean Esmay’s comments about me, a commenter wrote:
Projection, John…. Whatever they accuse you of, they’re doing!
After reading this latest comment by Sherard (who also comments here, usually to tell me I am drinking the liberal kool-aid), I think Mike is right:
Politicians are sneaky, underhanded, shifty, scum. You know it, I know it, John Cole knows it. I personally think he’s bitter that he invested so much in Bush and the war that when he has become disillussioned with Bush and the war, it’s no longer just criticism, he’s shut down any possible discussion. Bush is a liar and he has to go. And apparently any argument or defense of something that even remotely could be seen as benefitting Bush, he is diametrically opposed to. See also, the blatant double standard in the media for accepting at face value, anything from terrorists, but expecting that administration and military reports to be untruthful.
There’s almost no point. John has shut down any benefit of the doubt for this administration. He really undermines his credibility when discussing lies primarily regarding the military (Glenn and Austin Bay’s comments) he brings up gay marriage, stem cells, and the prescription drug benefit. Number one, the things he labels “lies” aren’t, and two, it’s a fallacious argument to bring up lies about domestic issues in regards to military reports and the war. Somehow disagreemtn with the WH position on stem cells should affect what information the media reports from the 2 sides of a war ???
Well, actually, no.
I brought up administration lies specifically because I was asked to back up this statement:
when dealing with an administration and military establishment that routinely does lie to them ..
Which, of course, was a response to the Austin Bay idiocy, in which he claims the media is working in concert with terrorists to ‘ambush’ the public. So, it seemed to me to the thing to do would be to list some administration/Presidential lies. Which I did. And I was lazy, and stopped at just four or five, when I could have gone on for hours. I did not conflate administration lies with military lies- I think the military does its level best to be honest and truthful within the constraints imposed upon them by their constitutional obligations and military regulations. But do they lie?
Sure. Ever heard of Pat Tillman? More often then not, their deceptions take the place of spin, in which they have to put the best face on something that is going poorly, but are not allowed to say otherwise. When some officers do stray from the company line, they are appropriately dealt within the military by reg, but they are also shat upon by folks like Sherard and Dean and all the other apologists. But I don’t hold the deceptions of the military against them (the military) in most cases- they aren’t the ones responsible for setting policy, and they aren’t the ones who have put them in this position, and they aren’t the ones supressing information- that is this administration and this President and his appointees and Vice President and this Republican Congress.
Regardless, I did not conflate the two issues. I merely listed administration lies when asked. Which leads us directly to phase two of the Sherard/Dean Esmay/Right wing blogosphere bullshit operation- to claim that what I am listing as lies are merely ‘policy disagreements’ or disagreements about ‘cost estimates.’
Bullshit.
Let’s take the first thing I listed as a lie- the cost of the Prescription Drug Plan, which this Congress and administration lied about so that they could pass it in time for the 2004 midterm elections. Some want to claim that this was merely a difference in opinions about the costs:
Wow John, lying at will? That would be a lot of lying, wouldn’t it?.. so to use your examples, Prescription drug bill cost estimates were “lies”?
Well, yeah:
The government’s top specialist on Medicare costs told colleagues he was warned that he would be fired if he told key lawmakers about a series of Bush administration cost estimates that could have torpedoed congressional passage of the White House-backed Medicare prescription-drug plan.
When the House of Representatives passed the controversial benefit by five votes last November, the White House was embracing an estimate by the Congressional Budget Office that it would cost $395 billion in the first 10 years.
But for months the administration’s own analysts in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services had concluded repeatedly that the drug benefit could cost upward of $100 billion more.
When you have information that differs from what you are publicly stating, and you deliberately suppress it to get your way, and engage in deception, that is lying. Period. It isn’t a difference of opinions- especially when you refuse to let the other opinion be known publicly. Sure, it was a difference in estimates. But you ignored it and refused to let the public make an informed decision. It was a deliberate deception. It was and is a lie. And the most depressing part of it all is that even the higher estimate that they suppressed will probably be wrong- the actual costs will be much higher- all to get the GOP elected again.
Let’s look at the fake ethical debate about stem cells. When you manufacture an ethical dilemma that simply does not exist and play fast and loose with the facts, solely to curry political favor from a certain political quarter, you are engaging in deception and dishonesty. Or, to borrow a term- LYING.
So back to where we are, and Sherard’s claim that I have simply ‘made my mind up’ and I am claiming disagreements are simply ‘lies.’ They really are engaging in projection, as it is they who have made their minds up, because there really is no other explanation for the ability to look at clear lies and claim they are something other than what they are. There really is only one response to Sherard and company- Bullshit.
I am sorry that Sherard and a lot of others out there simply can not ‘man-up,’ admit they were wrong, and recognize they are being fed an endless stream of heaping bullshit, and I am sorry they want to continue to play the game in which fundamental dishonesty is treated as ‘disagreement’ rather than lies, but it has got to stop. They can have their Orwellian doublespeak, in which abject untruths are treated as ‘spin’ or differences of opinion. I have had enough.
So maybe Sherard is right about one thing- I have made up my mind, and I am not playing the game anymore. We are in the mess we are in because of these bullshit games, and we need a real come to Jesus moment where some people figure that out. I harbor no illusion that the Democrats will solve all the countries problems- I fully expect them to infuriate me to no end. It took me a long, long time to get to this point, because I really dislike a lot of Democrats, and I really, really dislike a lot of their ideas. I have voted for the GOP my entire life ( although not exclusively), and it will be hard to not vote for some of them and I do think the Democrats will create a series of new and annoying problems once elect.
But really, the Republicans have set the bar pretty low, as the claim that the “Democrats are worse” falls on deaf ears when you are dealing with the worst group of liars I have ever seen in office. From where I sit, the Republicans have been wrong on about 90% of the issues since they were elected, whether it be the awful bankruptcy bill, the hideous prescription drug plan, the gay bashing, the stem cell lies, the Terri Schiavo nonsense- I could go on and on. And that doesn’t even begin to touch on the torture issue and domestic surveillance and the handling of the war in Iraq. From that standpoint, voting for a party that will probably be wrong 50% of the time seems like a helluva good deal.
Even if Michael Moore is fat.
Chefrad
Easily your best essay in a good while, and not just because I agree with it. If Canon Law says a “virtue” is the habit of doing good, then a vice (like lying) is a habit as well. Well-meaning rightists might quarrel with one allegation or another , but the pattern of lying is there for all to see. The examples you give can easily be multipled a hundred-fold.
Starting well before Iraq.
Shahid
I wouldn’t all you a liar. I would call you a shrill polemicist, who for whatever reason prefers to bloviate at the choir rather than engage in civil and rational debate with people who might be convinced. The sad thing is: You were once worth reading.
(And this is not about Dean. I don’t enjoy polemics from any quarter.)
Darrell
But the core point you fail to address with that example is that Congress ran their own cost estimate study on the Medicare prescription drug plan, independent of the Bush administration, using the CBO. That the Bush admin told another expert to butt out, is not the “lying at will” and “routinely lies” type of rank dishonesty that you choose to characterize them with.
And is there evidence that the Bush admin had a direct hand in covering up the fact that Tillman was killed in a friendly fire accident? And even if they did, is that really evidence of such systematic lying that you accuse the Bush admin of? Get a grip.
ThymeZone
Such a good post. Obviously your plan is to get rid of me by saying what I would say, leaving me …. speechless. I never saw it coming.
But there is this:
What I find stupefying in this context is the idea that reasonable people would have to be “convinced” in light of the avalanche of facts coming at them for the last five years. Really, if the facts aren’t enough, how on earth could a blogger convince him?
But anyway, if you are going to represent my views better than I can … I guess I will just shut up. It’s your dream come true.
bfy
Shahid, I have not seen one iota of evidence that the Bush movement has any interest in engaging in ‘civil and rational debate’. Trying o have a discussion with those who label John Murtha and others who put themselves in harm’s way to serve their country as ‘moonbats’ (or worse), simply for suggesting that America is a country where good sense and common decency prevail, is pointless.
capelza
Calling someone a polemicist while “bloviating” to the choir at the same time seems rather contradictory.
Great post John. Great, great post.
salvage
John it is my fevered hope that you’re the tip of the iceberg of actual conservatives who now realize that their party has been hijacked by the craziest and stupidest leaders in American history and that this November they make themselves known.
Darrell
Yeah, because the only possible explanation here is that Sherard isn’t man enough to own up to the ‘fact’ that the Bush administration is a bunch of serial liars (eg. “lies at will”, “routinely lies”, etc). Clearly a lack of testosterone on Sherard’s part is the real problem… nothing to do with John Cole’s over the top characterization.
Punchy
I’ll just keep repeating this until it sinks in. The Republican Party jumped the shark the instant it took more interest in the welfare of the PARTY over the welfare of the country. This is EXACTLY what Karl Rove’s whole m.o. is. Ever since Rove has been in control of the GOP, they’ve done action (stem cells) after action (gay marriage) after action (constant warfare) after action (constant fear) to maintain their majorities and line their pockets.
Good luck identifying at least one thing they’ve done to really help this country. One thing.
RSA
What’s this “another expert”? It was the top expert in the area, working for the Department of Health and Human Services, part of the executive branch. Congress worked with a number, Bush had his own estimate, $100 billion higher, but let Congress vote on what his expert could tell him was wrong. That’s rank dishonesty in my book, down to used car dealer level.
Darrell
Congress worked with a full blown independent study and cost estimate from the CBO. How honest of you to minimize all of that as simply working “with a number”
Tsulagi
By George, I think he’s got it.
Mike in SLO
Notice, John, how Darrell continues to prove your point… and news for Shahid: John has been attempting for a few years to enage in civil and rational debate with those who might otherwise be convinced, but instead of rational debate, he gets strawman arguments and name calling (“shrill polemicist”) by you and your ilk. That he’s had enough and now realizes that there is no rational debate with your kind is enlightening, not sad.
scarshapedstar
What I want to know is, what the fuck is the wingnut fetish with blocking information from reaching the public? I swear, guys like Dean and Sherard bust a nut every time they read that the Bush information is standing in the way of people who want Americans to know what’s going on in America. What the hell? How do they rationalize it?
I mean, they never even come out and say that the reports are all lies and ought to be reworked. No, they just give us this Leninist shit about how the proles can’t handle such worrisome information; only our genius President has the maturity, clear-sightedness, etc.
I bet they’d change their tune if, say, somebody decided to block a report about strychnine in their water supply. Real goddamn quick. And yet if somebody tries to point out that by now we really ought to pay more attention to our ports and our chemical plants than our airports, Dean and Sherard applaud the Bush administration for swooping in to stick their fingers in our collective ears, like we fucking asked. And, for christ’s sake, everyone knows what these reports reveal long before they’re released. It really is frightening to think that these mental midgets believe we’re all so stupid as to think everything is hunky-dory simply because Bush holds back a piece of bad news.
lard lad
Superlative post, John… like soothing cough syrup after abrading one’s throat on the noxious fumes emanated by the likes of Esmay, Steyn and (forgive me) Glen Reynolds.
KC
Amen. Really, amen. Best blog post all day.
minute
John,
Thank you for this excellent post. Your politics have annoyed me no end at times but, I always read you because you are honestly seeking truth and not an agenda. Please vote on election day and bring 10 million like minded friends with you. The Republic needs all the help it can get.
Pb
In a recent thread, regarding climate change, I had this to say:
I stand by my statement, and note that it is still applicable here. In the meantime, John… great post, but don’t feed the trolls. :)
Zifnab
Wow. That was very cathartic. Take a deep breath and pace yourself before you pull something John. I mean… just wow.
Let no blogger big or small ever make the claim that John does not have his shit in order. That was just… I guess… comprehensive is the only word that leaps to mind. Wow.
pj
Wow, this is interesting to watch. Last time I was on this blog you were defending the swifties and stated that Dick Cheney was a reason to vote Bush. Now I come back and you’re willing to overlook that Michael Moore is fat — and he is slovenly, disgustingly fat I might add.
Par R
This post certainly crystalizes something that’s become obvious with each passing month. The similarities that have developed among certain bloggers on the Loony Left are striking.
What can one say about Sullivan, Greenwald and Cole, the hystericalists and increasingly unhinged trio of the Lefty blogosphere? Like peas in a common pod, they have seldom encountered a George W. Bush issue that didn’t lead to the bunching of their panties and the fouling of their blogs. In the case of Sullivan and Cole, the epiphany that altered their view of the world apparently came when GWB announced his support for the Defense of Marriage initiative and a bunch of religious conservatives felt it was too early to pull the plug on Terri Schiavo….and as for Greenwald, well, he has always been pretty much of a total asshole, and a very long-winded one, at that.
And what exactly are some of the distinguishing features of this trio, aside from continuous efforts to initiate blogosphere “flame wars” in order to build readership hits?
For starters, most posts reflect a point of view that Bush is a totalitarian, in effect, a reincarnation of Hitler, Mussolini and Pol Pot all rolled into one, and his entire administration is incompetent if not criminal.
Most posts reflect an attitude that religious Christians are as dangerous as head chopping Islamic nuts. And it goes without saying that Christians deserve to be treated as more-or-less living scum, while Islamics should be treated with the full dignity that all peace-loving peoples deserve.
And, they uniformly hold the view that anything other than asking terrorists if they are comfy is torture. God forbid they should be forced to listen to Pink Floyd or have their thermostats lowered below 78 degrees.
At the end of the day, one must conclude as did Professor Reynolds recently, “Who gives a wet fart what this ubiquitous trio thinks about anything?”
capelza
Oh hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ……hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…..
hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
scarshapedstar
Geez, who shrilled in Par R’s coke?
Mac Buckets
It would really help if you’d actually say what you think the “lie” here is. Your first link doesn’t demonstrate any fake ethical dilemma (beyond one you imagine yourself), and it took me about 5 seconds to find a couple of articles from researchers who support Rove’s alleged statement that adult stem cells were superior to embryonic, which you said was the other lie.
Again, just because you and some other scientist disagree, doesn’t make it a lie.
Richard 23
Thank you, John. I like your posts when you get pissed off. When you’re wrong, you’re really wrong. And when you’re right, you’re really right. A blogger of contradictions. That’s why I keep coming back.
You’ve nailed it this time.
Where does the buck stop, double D?
But then there’s this:
We are in agreement here, Darrell. Great comment.
chopper
you misunderstand what actually happened. dick foster was the guy in charge of figuring out the numbers for the administration. the CBO went with a different, lower number because that’s the info they had, which wasn’t as complete as the white house estimate.
foster is legally charged with providing the estimates he has when congress asks for them. when pete stark’s office asked, he said he couldn’t because he was threatened with losing his job if he told congress what the actual cost was because it was over the $400 billion mark the bush administration claimed, and they knew that key conservatives in congress wouldn’t support the bill if it was over that number.
there definitely were shenanigans in the white house about the medicare bill costs.
Richard 23
No, Bush is in a class all by himself.
How many heads have been chopped off by the terrorists? How many heads have been chopped off by the Saudi Government? How many heads and arms and legs were blown off and how many people were blown into red mist by shock and awe? A little perspective, ParRot. BTW, I condone neither beheading by dull saw blades nor by daisy cutters.
Yeah, and who is advocating that position, Senator Strawman?
Mike in SLO
Somehow I think Par R has a lot to say. Let me continue reading…
Yeah, he had a lot (of nothing) to say.
First off, DKos, Atrios and Firedoglake will be very upset that Par R has labeled Sullivan, Greenwald, and Cole the “hystericalists” and “unhinged trio of the Left blogosphere” instead of them. Sullivan, Greenwald and Cole are truly endangered these days as they are TRUE conservatives and not the Neo-con Socialists that has taken over the Republican party (and Par R’s and Darrell’s of the world).
Second, Par R obviously gives a damn what these three say as he(she, or it) is quick to post a smarmy, name-calling, fact-free post whenever any of these three farts.
Third, I refrain from responding to these guys as much as possible, so I apologize for feeding the trolls, but sometimes I can’t resist pusing their buttons. I know its not civil and that I cheapen myself by responding in kind, but sometimes it’s just so much fun, and unlike them, I have a thick skin.
t. jasper parnell
I knew since shiavo that Mr. Cole was a decent human being. I knew since before shiavo that no decent human being could continue to support this administration. It is not just the lies it is the endless and vicious anti-Americanism of the current crop of dunderheads. We are a people, or so we tell ourselves, a people of moderation and general decency. The current boobocracy is neither. One of my colleagues is a self-identified Goldwater Republican; he routinely expresses his disgust with President Bush and all he stands for and does and yet his not capable of what this post seems to foretell: a rejection of a party out of control.
And Darrel, for someone whose favorite, or at least among your favorite, inane accusations is “lying your ass off” your comments are both beneath contempt and telling.
So, I say, raise a glass and give a cheer, decent human beings acting in concert can make the world a better place.
capelza
Pat R has to be a troll..seriously. If he is a parody troll, then he went way over the top. If he is a “paid” troll then he failed miserable here, because he has written a comedy gem.
Either way..he blew it.
Richard 23
As Monica was to Clinton, Par R fantasizes being to Bush.
Par R
Mr Furious or Richard 23 said:
I don’t know about that….scanning the comments in this thread leads me to conclude that most, including even ThymeZone, are fellating our inimitable host.
Tsulagi
Funny. When Clinton uttered his famous/infamous “I did not have sex with that woman…Monica Lewinsky” words, but then he confessed some weeks later, how many months did we hear in righteous indignation “HE LIED, HE LIED!”? Impeachment proceedings later.
Actually, though, he could have argued otherwise. Webster’s, at least at the time, didn’t include oral pleasures in its definition of sex. A poll not long after the incident had 52% saying the same thing and classed oral as foreplay. Ahhh, foreplay. Anyway, I was in the minority then and now; I said he lied. Sorry, not giving him a pass.
But, on any of the Bush lies of arguably more importance, whether it be the prescription drug bill, stem cell research, Saddam’s nuclear program, etc, etc, etc, if his fluffers can smell any fart to the contrary in the morning, they gather in the aroma calling it coffee. People don’t understand. Dobson’s Jesus has proclaimed him lie free. A Gonzales executive finding has confirmed it.
Walker
I can at least understand postmodernism (invention of the left, embraced by the right), logical fallacies, and content-free arguments appearing in blog postings. What I want to know, is how on earth Glenn Reynolds a law-professor can have trouble with classical rhetoric (vis-a-vis his earlier comments on John). Is he really that way, or just disingenuous?
VidaLoca
This has to be the bestest, flakiest, funniest, most insane over-the-top thing I’ve seen said about John Cole since the gang over at Scrutator declared he was a Trotskyist!
Ah, good times. Par, you made my day.
VidaLoca
John,
You made my day too. Way to be shrill.
Waxmaker
Great post, John.
But as far as fetishes go, Par R, surely you only keep posting because of your own frustrated scatophila.
SeesThroughIt
Let’s not forget the true pioneer of this semantic hair-splitting: Newt Gingrich
carpeicthus
You’re just making shit up if you think John “preaches to the choir.” I have never seen any blogger anywhere so routinely piss off his own regular commenters.
capelza
Or get pissed off at them either! When John has had it with us, he is certainly not afraid to tell us so.
Otto Man
I thought I heard something flying by my window, and it turns out it was this post. You knocked it out of the fucking park.
Richard 23
What’s the matter, Par? Reading posts without your glasses? Or is it the reading comprehension problem? Either way, it made me laugh. Thanks for that.
Hey, give credit where credit is due. Capelza started it. She was just a little more subtle:
radish
It’s the scruffy beard that really undermines his credibility.
p.s. welcome to our world.
stickler
Scarshapedstar:
Well, there was that little matter of air quality at Ground Zero, and Christie Todd Whitman telling all the rescue workers that the air was jim-dandy. And, come to find out, it wasn’t jim-dandy. It was jim-deadly. Whoops!
Ah, but the “they” you were referring to don’t tend to live in New York City. So it didn’t affect them off in the suburbs of Redstate Amerika.
ThymeZone
Word.
John calls it as he sees it.
Zifnab
He only hits us cause he loves us.
Zifnab
If you’re looking through the backlogs trying to find the most posts that Par R is refering to, it helps to check under the tag Strawman. There you’ll find a wealth of punditry that ranges from claims that Bush eats babies, suggestions for more efficently airbusing terrorists into tall buildings, legislation to make aethism the nationally recognized religion, and plans to institute federally funded mandatory abortions for black people. The Strawman threads have, in fact, been the hallmark of the Balloon Juice website and continue to inspire our eclectic mix of comentators to profess their undying love for Islamo-facist-commu-gay-ism.
So yes, I suppose the only suitable response to another one of Par R’s little diatribes is the classic response that we’ve all grown to know and love: Link please?
Darrell
Big John Cole fan here.. also a Dean Esmay fan. Both have strong convictions held with a lot of conviction, and both are extremely well informed and passionaate. John and Dean are extraordinarily intelligent, but get overheated at times with the passion of their arguments. My beef with JCole lately is that he’s taking a couple of examples, not good ones imo, and extrapolating into an adminstration which “routinely lies” etc type of crap. I honestly believe he knows better. Maybe I’m wrong. Dean is not always right, but he was right to call out JohnC on his over the top characterizations of the Bush admin being serial liars. John Cole is still the best political blogger in existence IMO. My $0.02
Pb
You know, I’m having trouble distinguishing the arguments of the alleged Bush apologists here from the parody of Stephen Colbert. The only dead giveaway I’ve found so far is that Colbert is actually funny.
stickler
Darrell says:
Darrell is a fine example of your tax dollars at work. Shit, the Pentagon can’t do any better with blogspoofing than it does at rebuilding Iraq. They must have outsourced this job, just like they did feeding our soldiers. Idiots.
Mr Furious
Darrell’s in rare form tonite!…
Read John’s post, dumbass. That was clearly and specifically an example of a military lie, not attributable to Bush.
Get the fucking straw out of your eyes.
CaseyL
John, that is one helluva post.
Shahid, you must be new here. John’s a (former) Republican. He has tried hard, over more than a year, to stay one. The Party means quite a lot to him philosophically – or did, before the current wrecking crew took over. For you to dismiss what he says now as polemicist bloviating is to ignore what been a very painful evolution in viewpoint for him, as he watched a Party that stood for things he believes in change into one that stands for nothing any decent American can support.
And he’s not alone. There are more and more once-loyal Republicans, from moderates to actual conservatives, who have given up on the GOP. I salute them all, and not because I think it’s “a good thing for the Democrats.”
I salute them because I think it’s necessary – for America. The GOP is controlled by people, by interest groups, who are out to destroy America. Some of them are doing so deliberately, because they yearn for an authoritarian plutocracy, or because they’re blind with hatred for their fellow Americans who happen to be different from them. Some of them are doing so out of fear, because the 9/11 attacks unhinged them. And some of them are going so out of a blind loyalty to Party that outweighs loyalty to country.
Whatever their reasons, they’ve created a Party whose every policy, every action, is inimicable to America. From their fiscal insanity which has mortgaged our country for the next generation, to their malign indifference to the common good, to their mechanizations that undermine the Constitution at every turn, Bush and the GOP have become a cancer on our nation.
I’m a liberal Democrat, and proud of it. But there was a time I could listen to the Republican point of view, sometimes agree with it, and even vote for Republican candidates. I want, I’ve always wanted, policies that are good for America – and I’ve never been an ideologue, so sometimes I could agree that a Republican policy was the right one.
Those days are long gone. Long gone, and will never come again. The GOP is not a pro-American Party in any way I recognize.
More to the point, the GOP is no longer a pro-American Party in any way that people like John can recognize.
When you’ve lost John, and people like him, you’ve lost something valuable and irreplaceable.
The fact that Shahid, Par R, Darrell, MacBuckets, and others among the dwindling wingnut chorus can’t see that is sad for them, sad for the GOP, and very, very bad for America.
DougJ
Darrell, it certainly raises my opinion of you that you think Dean Esmay and John are the best political bloggers. I’m not a big Dean fan, but I tend to attribute his problems to his being slightly crazy — he is pretty intelligent. And John is certainly very good when he’s on (and not crazy!).
JoeTx
Honestly John, it would probably be easier to catalog the number of times this administration has told the truth about anything.
On a different note….
Rumsfeld held a press conference on Monday, September 10, 2001 to inform us that the Pentagon had lost 2 TRILLION DOLLARS. ON A MONDAY, they NEVER release bad news on a Monday, hmmm, what happened on that TUESDAY??? THINK about it!
Nat Echols
Ditto; also for my parents. I was a registered Democrat until 2003 and they still are as far as I know, but we all crossed party lines regularly when we thought the Democratic candidate was unacceptable. They even donated money to McCain in 2000.
I’d love it if there were a party in power that genuinely supported limited government and conservatism in the Burkean sense, even if only to put the brakes on the wilder schemes of the Democrats. Hell, it worked in the ’90s. But I can’t justify voting Republican at any point in the future until they throw out their entire leadership. In an alternate universe, I’d probably be a moderate Republican, but here that would mean supporting Bush, Cheney, Frist, DeLay, and too many godawful others to count.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
LOL! PotD.
Inhumans99
I just want to say WOW! Seriously, wow…John, you have been on a roll these last few days. By the way, fellow Juicers, I have always felt that Balloon Juice, arguably, has one of, if not the best comment sections in the blogosphere. The right mix of trolls/spoofers/Bush apologists, and regular folks who just enjoy what John has to say day in and day out.
I do not always agree with what John has to say, but I truly appreciate that he is willing to scream at folks on both sides of the political isles that they need to “man up” and stop blindly accepting the talking points of the frustratingly clueless and spineless politicians who currently run this country. Yes, Frist, I am looking at you, as I cannot believe, especially being a physician, that you are cool with pushing for a vote to sanction torture. Seriously, do I live in a country where Nuns were tortured, or America, where you are ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty by a court of law (yes, I hope that comes off sounding like what it is, a rhetorical question).
db
CaseyL writes:
I have faith (maybe more like hope now) that the GOP will correct itself. Not in the next ten years but I certainly believe it’s got to happen within a generation after the sensible Republicans decide to finally throw the martyrs out of their tent.
Doesn’t Barry Goldwater look really good right about now?
… Goldwater commenting on Falwell’s objections to O’Connor’s nomination to the Supreme Court in 1981.
Or on the religious right:
Other Goldwater quotes.
Finally, an interesting bit of AZ trivia. Stephen Shadegg ran some of Goldwater’s political campaigns. He also wrote a little book about how Republicans would have to campaign to be able to take over Congress… sort of like a 30 year game plan. Well, his son, John Shadegg was part of that Republican Revolution in 1994 and is still very safe today. But just where does he stand on the current state of his party? Is he as frustrated as the manager of this site?
Shadegg reflecting on Goldwater.
John Cole – I think the frustration you are facing is that you are facing too many religious zealots. How can they ever be liars when God is on their side? And since God is on their side they absolutely know that you are a liar.
Chuck Butcher
A disclaimer, I linked here from a lefty Blog and I am a Left Democrat, no, I didn’t mean left-leaning. I congratualte John on having the sense to see what is being done daily by this Administration. If he is endowed with critical thinking and active memory cells he undoubtably could have increased his list by orders of magnitude. Many of the things that seem to offend him have offended me for quite some time, the difference being, I suppose, that I never did have any hopes for this bunch. When Conservatives find the Bill of Rights optional, they have re-defined themselves – conseratives of the bush persuasion and enemies to the very concepts that form the United States of America. (don’t bother me about guns, I probably own and shoot more than you do – ugly ones too)
The question that occurs to me is just exactly what are we good lefty Democrats going to do with the John Coles? How will they react to National Health Care Insurance? Would it make a particle of difference to point out that the single payer format already is in place, it’s called The Insured. Doesn’t that irk? Big Government – national insurance – since you’re insured, you’re already paying the lion’s share… How about – it should take legal action and notification to dis-enfranchise a voter? How about Oregon Vote By Mail? Maybe this one, all law abiding citizens should have all the rights and responsibilities of all other law abiding citizens – (shhhh- gay marriage) oh eek. Are you sure you really want to vote
democrat?
I was a Democratic Primary candidate in OR 02 Congressional District, May 2006, my Blog Archives might be a big warning sign, then again…
Chuck Butcher
Baker City, OR
ThymeZone
{ Heawp! I’be dwawwowed my dongue }
{ thud }
Richard 23
Hmmmm, I want what he’s having. Maybe.
Beej
I’ve been looking for the link to the essays written by prominent conservatives, including Scarborough, giving their reasons for believing that Republicans need to lose these upcoming elections. So far no luck in finding it. Does anyone know where it is? I think Darrell and Par R really need to read those essays.
I really should have added it to my favorites list. My bad.
Beej
Oh good! Just found it.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0610.forum.html
p.lukasiak
please go back to feuding with the liberal commenters on your blog, John, cause none of us give a flying fuck about Dean Esmey.
(by the way… I hear Esmey is tight with your boy Goldstein….)
p.lukasiak
The question that occurs to me is just exactly what are we good lefty Democrats going to do with the John Coles?
when the revolution comes, Cole goes to a re-education camp…. but he get the “country-club” version.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
No, in 2007 he’s going to Gitmo along with the rest of you moonbats.
America’s going to stay the course in Congress just as America’s going to stay the course in Iraq. If that bothers you people, go to Cuba- one way or another.
Sherard
Woohoo! Front page, baby. Oh yeah, kool-aid, it’s was for breakfast at John’s house.
Hey man, all I can say is this – at least when I disagree with your opinion, and obviously I do at this point – I can recognize it as just that, a disagreement. I don’t echo Dean’s opinion that you must be lying yourself. It’s just your opinion.
Your characterization of these “lies” is still such that until some magic point in time, you wanted to just accept every word that came out of Bush and Rove’s mouth as some kind of gospel truth or something. Yeah, I’m sure there ARE some scientists that believe adult stem cells hold more promise than embrionic, especially considering the politics attached to embrionic stem cells. So when Rove echoes those people, he’s a liar. As Dean said, Whatever.
I personally doubt what everyone says. I’m skeptical of anyone in the press, or involved in politics, no matter HOW peripherally they are involved, and that includes “men of science” who seem more interested in politics than science.
I hold a particularly high level of skepticism for the press, and when I read of some low level government employee say he was told to supress information or be fired, gosh, I wonder WHO is telling the truth, and how much of it. You, on the other hand, seize on it as PROOF of LIES. Get a grip, man.
I like some of what Bush has done, some of it has been misguided, and some has been downright retarded. Now maybe you have been pushed there by other bloggers, commenters, etc., but you’ve done a complete 180 and while you may not be drinking the kool-aid, you are essentially indistinguishable from the hardcore moonbats that are taking it through an IV.
I come here every day for one reason. It’s like a train wreck and I can’t look away. You can dismiss me all you like as some die-hard Bush fanboy, but I am far from it. RINO, South Park Republican, libertarian at heart, you can call me what you want, but I see no good coming from the shrieking Dean-iacs in the Democratic party and you sound just like them. If there is a point to it, I frankly don’t see it.
Sherard
Look, bub, you wan’t to take me to task for things I’ve actually posted, fine. But don’t put fucking words in my mouth.
I have never had a bad word to say about any of the retired Generals criticizing Bush or Rumsfeld. I frankly am not qualified to comment. Regardless of the all the warts and blemishes that the war critics want to point out – and that is their fulltime job now, apparently – this has still been a far more efficient operation than any major operation in US military history if I’m not mistaken. If the level of media attention and technology were available for any previous war, it would make the finger pointing in this one look like child’s play.
Sherard
By the way – wrong ? Wrong about what ? Being fed a heaping pile of BS ? Oh yeah. No doubt. From Bush and his team, from Kerry, Dean, and Edwards and their team, from Clinton and his / her team and on and on and on.
Maybe YOU thought Bush was going to be the White Knight savior, but I got news for you, they’re all douchebags that really can’t be trusted. To me, that’s the REAL reason why most people support the “small government” republicans – the less of them there are, the less they can screw up.
So I would moderately support a return to a Democrat headed Congress, though I think those retards will fuck things up far, FAR worse than Bush EVER could. Gridlock would probably be good for a while. Maybe someone will show up in 2008 that isn’t a complete idiot, and I happen to think Guiliani is that guy, but whether he even gets on the ballot remains to be seen.
Sherard
One more comment (cross posted from another BJ thread)
Lastly, the bottom line is that the problem of how the press is covering this war is just that, a problem. Nobody said, that I saw, that the press is trying to help, or is actively helping the terrorists. Just that their well established bias happens to line up nicely with the terrorists strategy.
The reason I see you being taken on over your accusations of “LIES” is that you essentially just pass by this problem because Bush is a liar. That’s horseshit. Bush is a liar, so it doesn’t matter that the press will print terrorist propaganda verbatim without thinking twice ? Give me a break.
You can despise this administration all you like, but you don’t think the press ought to show a WEE bit more skepticism when it comes to printing the terrorists portrayal of the war ? Try and take a pill for your BDS and think about it for a minute.
John Cole
Sherard-
Your response is an incoherent mess. I will make it even easier for you, since this seems to be difficult. here goes:
THE REASON I THINK THEY ARE LIES IS BECAUSE THEY ARE, NOT BECAUSE I HATE BUSH, AM A LIBERAL, OR WANT THE TERRORISTS TO WIN.
John S.
That’s a fascinating opinion. Considering how low the bar has been set by the Bush administration and congressional Republicans, I think it’s an entirely baseless and moronic opinion. Of course, opinions are not relegated to the realm of facts or reality, so you are certainly free to let your mind go wherever it pleases. After all, I think the NY Giants will win the Superbowl this year…
Just remember all the things Democrats would have to have happen on their dime to fulfill your wet dream, including a spectacular terrorist attack, ballooning deficit and two incredibly inept attempts at nation-building to name a few (Cole and several commenters have named several others).
But a seething liberal-hater can dream. And heaven forbid should some miracle of misfortune befall this nation in an even greater way with Dems in control than what we have endured lo these six years, I will be the first to share your dream.
P.S. Giuliani will never make it through the current GOP machine. Unless they abandon the people that have been keeping them in power, an adulterous pro-choice GOP president is not going to see the light of day. But again, dare to dream, Sherard. Dare to dream.
Nikki
The Boston Globe:
Methinks you are mistaken.
Lee
an adulterous pro-choice gay loving GOP president
fixed it for you
Rusty Shackleford
Where is the press covering the Iraq war? I haven’t seen anything on tv in weeks and anything that is covered in the newspapers is dropped deep and below the fold. The only regular news I see from Iraq is usually a Yahoo! headline that will read something like, “40 Tortured Bodies Found In Baghdad“. The headline will stay up until about 9am before being overwhelmed by the latest Britney Spears/Paris Hilton/Lindsey Lohan news.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
I don’t mean to jump on you, Sherard, since I’m mostly here for the unrestrained spoofing. But you said a couple things I have to take issue with now, in case no one else does it later. Please bear with me here, and sorry if I sound snarky. I don’t know how to write any other way:
Really? This is more efficient than D-Day? Midway? Yorktown? Saratoga? Inchon? Operation Desert Storm?
Well, time will tell. But somehow, I think it will tell you were mistaken, as you concede is possible.
Personally, I think this war is a clusterfuck of the first order. Maybe not quite as bloody as Vietnam, or as bungled from the get-go as Operation Eagle Claw, or as counterproductive as the War of 1812. It’s not as one-sided as the battle of Little Big Horn. But still, it’s got elements of all the disastrous American military operations wrapped up in one, from the excess war profiteering that harms the war effort to the overambitious objectives to the arrogant, cocksure disregard for the enemy’s capabilities to the incompetent armchair generalship of the civilian leadership.
Then again, I could be mistaken, too. Still, even if we end up “winning” in Iraq (whatever that means), I still think it’ll probably be fair to compare it to the Indian Wars: bloody, riddled with mistakes and errors and minor catastrophes like the one Custer had, and dragging on over the course of a century or so.
Eliminate them entirely, then. Me, I’m jealous of Somalia. Well, the warlords have the weapons over there stockpiled, though, and that’s not fair. We should just give every citizen a semi-automatic rifle and then abolish the government entirely. No more corruption, no more crime, and no more tax men. (We’d give the rest of our military capacity to Ireland and Burkina Faso. If nothing else, I imagine they’d do some interesting things with it.)
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Why? What have you heard? What’s up with those three? I want to know, dammit!
Andrew
If we splice their DNA together, we will create the Savior or the Anti-Christ. It’s a toss up. Either way, it will be a slutty whore who can’t sing.
RSA
This is exactly the kind of thing that Bush says, but this view seems to be based on the idea that any bad news coming out of Iraq, or even disagreement with Bush’s “strategy” in Iraq, helps the terrorists. How do you propose that criticisms be leveled at Bush? Should we take lessons from Republican attacks on Clinton for his foreign military efforts?
Rob
I have never understood this “logic”. The GOP are working overtime to create a state like Cuba, then they say if you don’t like it, go to Cuba. WTF.
canuckistani
Excellent post John. I won’t despair of you Americans yet.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
I, for one, am willing to take those odds. Splice and clone away, science!
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Well, now they’ve set up a nice prison in Cuba, so if you don’t like America, go to jail. A jail in Cuba. Run by Americans, who will torture you.
It’s the least you deserve for hating America, really. I guess that’s the rationale, anyway.
BTW, if news someday leaks out that Guantanamo is worse torture-wise than Abu Ghraib, could Castro invade Gitmo and invoke international humanitarian law to justify his actions? Just asking. I know that violates Protocol II, Article 3 of the 1949 additional to the Geneva Conventions, but I’m not sure if either America or Cuba is a party to that treaty addition. I’m not sure where customary international law would fall on this question, either. I am pretty sure Cuba would subsequently get the crap kicked out of it, justified by the U.S. on grounds of self-defense; but anyway, if Cuba tried that stunt, it would be an interesting attempt at self-justification. Much better than our invasion of Iraq to pre-empt Saddam from someday acquiring nukes.
Chefrad
The adage goes:
“There are those who see. those who see when they are shown, and those who simply will not see.”
Sherard will never see, not even through a glass darkly. Moreover his tone and vulgarity betray him. It is the mindset of someone driven well beyond logic in his frustration.
As for the other Bush stalwarts, playing whack-a-mole with this lie accusation or that is a Sisyphusian enterprise. There are simply too many lies. But Sherard does get our attention by saying the war was well run. We were wondering what became of Ken “Cakewalk” Adelman.
Darrell
Talk about refusal to “man up”.. Sherard made a number of great points and that’s all you got in response? Example:
Much easier to dismiss legit arguments like that as “incoherent” rather than “man up” and address them directly. C’mon John, you’re better than that.
Darrell
I expect the morons on the left to avoid addressing Sherard directly, as they are incapable of doing so. I’m disappointed JC seems to be guilty of the same. Btw, an example of Sherard’s “vulgarity” you accuse him of? Yeah, that’s what I thought
Darrell
John, time to “man up”, as you did in fact put those words in his mouth.
JoeTx
Here is a cool exercise, pick out all the LIES Boner spews
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/27/john-boehner-still-believes-saddam-was-tied-to-911-and-had-wmd/
RSA
Name a piece of terrorist propaganda that a major news outlet has printed verbatim, without appropriate context, e.g., “UBL said. . .”
JoeTx
According to Bush, anybody who tells the truth is spouting “terrorist propaganda”
You really need to decide what is most important to you, party or Country! If your willing to ignore what is going on, or are aware of what is going on, then you have decided that your party is more important than your country. I can’t put it any plainer than that…
I salute John Cole for putting his country first
Darrell
Jenin was a whopper. So was CNN who for years cut a deal with Saddam to report his propaganda in exchange for the privelege of having a Bahdad bureau. Incredible really. Faked photos and news stories which benefit terrorists too. Some in the media are honest enough to admit it
RSA
Thanks; I see I should have been more precise: I don’t think Jenin (at least based on what I know of it) counts as an example of propaganda published by news outlets that know it’s propaganda. I won’t defend CNN, however, again based on what I know.
Tsulagi
Now there is Bush Derangement Syndrome above in all its glory. A fine example of a man-up Republican.
Hmm…let’s see, how to spin this abortion in Iraq that OIF has become. Can’t blame the military because we have plenty of bumper stickers that say they’re our guys. Can’t blame the nonexistent Phase IV planning and later play as you go directives from retarded Pentagon civilian leadership. Nope.
I know, blame the media! No happy news! The responsibility is all theirs, they’re terrorist lovers. Oh, but when you do, make sure you add a cutesy “nobody said.” Ahh, the sweet smell of new-Republican responsibility and accountability.
Yeah, you just can’t get away from the Nazi/terrorist appeasing press. Like this example just a few days ago over at Stryker Brigade News. Sort of messes a little with that “As they stand up, we’ll stand down” line. Just a day or two in the life of the tour-extended 172nd in a Baghdad oil spot in Operation Together Forward.
For the Sherards who might take that link, while there, click on “Tribute to Fallen Soldiers.” Look at those faces and tell them they’re lucky the Republican leadership in Congress had their backs as evidenced by congressional hearings examining the planning and prosecution of this war while underway as done in all past conflicts.
Oh wait, that’s right, there hasn’t been even one. Must be the media’s fault. Or that this admin is just too damn efficient so they’re not necessary. Either answer works for a Sherard Republican.
John S.
Well at least Sherard got his message across to Darrell…
Democrats are poopyheads.
The Other Steve
Now that’s what I call a most excellent rant!
Richard Bennett
Excellent post, Mr. Cole. Dean Esmay lies so much he even lies about his lying lies.
All politicians spin, but the Bushies are well beyond the normal limits, and the inability to detect, comment, and criticize this behavior has undermined the conservative blogistan’s credibility.
Krista
Man oh man…someone’s been eating his Wheaties lately! John, you’re on fire!
Sad, though. There will always be certain people, who when you point out the breathtaking incompetence and dishonesty of the Bush adminstration, will respond in one (or more) of the following ways:
1. It wasn’t a lie, it was just a difference of opinion.
2. You’re a shrill, liberal, Bush-hater, so why should we take you seriously?
3. But Clinton lied too!
4. You’re on the side of the terrorists.
Etc, etc. etc.
I just don’t understand why these people, when confronted with the glaring flaws of this administration, can’t bear to admit even one way in which their hero may have erred. Instead, they just keep trying to change the subject.
Why is that, I wonder.
Skip
>Jenin was a whopper
vetiver
I see Darrell’s back from the quote mines, another day older and deeper in dumb.
* What does Jenin have to do with the Iraq invasion, or the War on Terrorism, or the Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism, or the Long War, or the Shop Til You Drop War, or the War Paid For By Mortgaging Our Future to Our Chinese Overlords, or the Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Our Freedoms War, or whatever catchy new focus-grouped name pops up next? (Personally, I like “The Ever-Escalating War That Will Prevent My Impeachment & Also Elect a Republican to Issue Unconditional Pardons in 2009 So I Can Spend the Rest of My Days Engaged in Occupations Commensurate with My Interests and Abilities, Such As Rubbing Men’s Bald Heads and Clearing Brush and Cashing Unearned Checks.” Although “Ooogity-Boogity! Ayrabs! Hide the Wimmin!” has its points.)
* The CNN transcript section you quote from discusses the U.S. practice of paying for deliberately slanted coverage, i.e., propaganda, from the likes of Armstrong Williams. Are you in favor of that?
* How is “he said, she said” journalism equivalent to “print[ing] terrorist propaganda verbatim”? Are you saying that the facts not only have a liberal bias, but are actually terrorists ?
Chuck Butcher
A Democrat loves this stuff:
They all lie so Bush isn’t REALLY lying
We’re winning in Iraq – my god what would losing look like?
Liberals love terrorists – Huh? Maybe you haven’t noticed that Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy are killing people and scaring hell out of them for political gain – I don’t like them for it.
The Liberal Media – big corporations are now liberal??
CNN sucks, Fox rocks – Too bad your memory cells are gone
Clinton lied about sex – definitely worse than War??
Liberals will f–k things up 10x worse – on the basis of what data? 10yrs of “R” fuckups?
Bush is right, I don’t care, he’s right – a 5 second attention span will get you there.
Now personally I think (in my lefty way) that the current Administration ought to be a very good argument for sincere support for the Second Ammendment. In 1776 this shit would’ve gotten you at least tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on a pole.
But…the politics of personality (Bushism) trump principle, history, or even rationality. The school that says Bush is a good argument for Libertarianism is goofy, he’s a good argument for Anarchy, Libertarianism is just another means of rigging the game. A government of law might be a better starting point.
Posts like this one are so lacking in facts and citations – jeeze numbnuts, go back to the year 2000 and start reading the news and compare it with today’s reality. Boy, John, reading your “friends” makes a move Democrat-ward look very reasonable. Today’s Senate vote makes me ill.