There’s an interesting back-and-forth between Ross Douthat and Michael Kinsley about stem cell research. Douthat writes (in a somewhat “sneery” reply to an earlier Kinsley piece on the issue, as Kinsley puts it):
As should be clear from other examples, at home and abroad, most pro-lifers would like to heavily regulate fertility clinics, and would support efforts to give every embryo a chance at life.
Weirdly, Douthat’s links are to an old article about snowflake babies, an old article about a law in Italy, and something William Saletan wrote about the woman who had octuplets. So that’s “clear from other examples”? The NYT should be able to do better (note: the point of this post is not to bash Douthat, since there’s more evidence to support his claim in the end).
Kinsley replies:
In Bush’s original speech announcing his stem cell research restrictions eight years ago (now praised by conservatives as a masterpiece of moral reasoning the way liberals praise President Obama’s speech on race in Philadelphia) Bush actually praised the work of fertility clinics, claiming—correctly—that in-vitro fertilization (IVF) has brought happiness to many.
Furthermore, if you’re going to draw a line to facilitate compromise, the line between embryos used for research and embryos simply destroyed is an odd one to draw—at least if your intention is to ban the research but allow the pointless destruction to continue. Why not the other way around? Also, while stem cell research involves the destruction of embryos, IVF involves the purposeful creation of embryos with the certain knowledge that many or most of them will be destroyed. Once again, it’s an odd compromise that saves the former by preventing scientific research while allowing the latter much larger and pointless slaughter to continue unmolested.
My own suspicion is that this fertility clinic anomaly hasn’t even occurred to most pro-lifers. And I think, or hope, that when they realize that their logic in opposing stem cell research would condemn all IVF as well, it will give many reasonable pro-lifers pause—maybe even about their pro-life position in general, certainly about their opposition to stem cell research. That’s why I keep harping on this analogy. And that is why the leaders of the pro-life movement keep avoiding it.
Now, here’s where things get interesting. The state of Georgia has in fact decided to wade into the IVF issue with a law I don’t know how to interpret:
Last Thursday, the Georgia House passed a bill that declares embryos are children and therefore can be adopted. Meanwhile, the Georgia Senate passed a bill that defines a living human embryo as a person and prohibits the destruction of an embryo for any reason, such as scientific research.
This might also criminalize abortion. Thus, it is probably unconstitutional.
But here’s my question: if the embryos can’t be used for research (as they would be under new laws) or destroyed (as they currently are in many cases), then do they have to kept frozen forever? Isn’t that even stranger and more science-fictiony (one argument people seem to make against stem cell research is that it’s strange and science-fictiony)?
I think Kinsley is right about the politics of this, that screwing with IVF will just piss off people who are trying hard to get pregnant and thus will further ghettoize the conservatives who push for it. But Douthat may be right that conservatives will push for it anyway.
gwangung
And?
Modern "conservatives" are often outright stupid about cultural war things.
ScreamingInAtlanta
For God’s sake, why is it always embarassing news coming out of Georgia? Honestly, we’re not all fucking wingnut idiots. I swear.
DougJ
I know, I used to live in Athens. Once you’re outside Athens and Atlanta, it’s pretty scary politically, though.
bootlegger
And all the living children in foster care? You know, the system facing budget cuts and denied to same-sex couples? Fucking worthless hypocrites.
Ash Can
Sure it is. But these stem-cell-phobes are just fucked in the head. If they carry their fucked-up-ed-ness to its logical conclusion, millions of us women will be sitting on death row for having miscarriages. After all, it’s our word against theirs that we had no control over what happened.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Fxd.
[Snerk] Someone tell him the freaks who stalk doctors, clinic staff and their family members don’t give a damn about babies. They’ve spotted it, discussed it, created powerpoint presentations about it and decided to ignore it.
Ejoiner
I feel about the same here in Columbia, SC. You’ve got pockets of sanity here and there but as the state’s voting record demonstrates there is a lot more crazy going on here than you really want to face. Take our governor for instance – perhaps you’ve heard of him lately?
jibeaux
@ScreamingInAtlanta: Aw, buck up, South Carolina, Alabama, and Louisiana also frequently bring the crazy in heretofore unforeseen ways…
…this would appear to criminalize abortion, yes…
If it’s frozen, though, is it living? I definitely understand the difference between something with the potential for life and no potential for life. An embryo is different from a fingernail clipping. But one, I have also never been able to understand why IVF would be ok if the destructions of embryos is not; and two, you are really stretching the definition of "life" if you include something that is not only a blastocyst, but is frozen. That entity is a long way away from skinning its knees in the driveway after falling off the trike. It’s hard to imagine, if you were trapped in an IVF lab on fire and could only carry either a toddler or a suitcase full of frozen embryos, anyone who would struggle with that dilemma. But anyway, I remember back when there was a lot of polling on the subject, public support was very high for stem cell research, like "no the AIG bastards shouldn’t get $150 million bonuses" high. This would seem to be another of those Schiavo things, to moi.
Thursday
Making IVF illegal isn’t necessarily a bad thing, from my perspective. Adopt, already!
Martin
For any reason?
That’d criminalize some birth control as well. It’d criminalize embryo reduction and by extension likely criminalize IVF. It’d criminalize a hysterectomy a day after implantation. Would a miscarriage have to be investigated and an autopsy done – it is a child, after all.
On the upside, every female solo driver could use the HOV lanes.
Ash Can
@Thursday: If only it were that simple.
Francis
my own suspicion is that the fertility clinic problem has occurred to many pro-lifers, but they keep quiet about it because if they alienate middle-class middle-aged women who need IVF to get pregnant they won’t have the numbers to get elected dogcatcher.
It’s along the same lines as the rape&incest exception to abortion. First, in both cases the fetus is innocent. Why allow abortion when the baby could be put up for adoption. Second, rape and incest are very different; the second can be, in theory, entirely voluntary. Why allow abortion when the baby was conceived thru consensual sex? Birth defects? Don’t go there, or you’ve just allowed abortion for DS, for example.
The reason that rape&incest exceptions aren’t much debated is that the pro-lifers need all the votes they can get; consistency matters less than expediency.
dr. bloor
Fix’t. Silly Georgians.
kid bitzer
if they can’t be used or destroyed, do they have to be kept frozen forever?
no–presumably the right answer is that they will be brought to term and adopted by a loving couple.
by a loving straight couple.
straight, christian, couple.
straight, christian, white couple.
unless the embryos, are, you know.
in other words, it’s not "freeze, baby, freeze", but "thaw! it’s the law!"
jibeaux
@Martin:
That’s really funny. Sadly, I bet Atlanta would consider HOV lanes to be really, really commie. Could be wrong, though.
It would criminalize therapeutic abortions, too. I don’t care if your baby’s brain is on the outside of its head, lady, you are bringing that child to term!
geg6
Sully has links to Kingsley and a couple other fine examples of Douthat douchery. Why anyone thought he’d be any less douchey in the Times is beyond comprehension. He’s a woman-hating religious nutcase and that’s beyond the fact of his run of the mill wingnuttery. Kingsley’s logic and conclusion are right on. He kicks Douthat’s ass and takes names. Go to Sully’s place (can’t figure out linking on the Crackberry, sorry) and check out from the other links what a dick Douthat is.
Indylib
@Ejoiner:
What has been the reaction to him in SC? The state has the 2nd highest unemployment rate in the country, forcrissake. Is he getting any pushback?
Martin
You may not understand it for long.
If you take the DNA out of the fingernail clipping and use it to replace the DNA in a pig embryo, which of these things is a person? The fingernail clipping and the pig embryo, taken together, have the potential for human life. Do we ban the destruction of these things as well?
Comrade Stuck
It would be funny if it weren’t so serious, when right wingers like douthat haven’t been touched by a degenerative disease like Parkinson’s which Kinsley suffers from. The starry eyed ideologue changes it’s tune when that happens to them, or someone they love. If you look at the normally hard core right to lifers in the senate, such as Orin Hatch and former sen Pete Domenici and others, who have family members that could be helped by embryonic stem cells and support the research, you can get a glimpse of the conservative psyche and it’s bottomless pit of self serving hypocricy.
Comrade Jake
Part of me just can’t help but think this is the result of people pointing out the cognitive dissonance conservatives had of being anti-abortion and not caring about IVF clinics. So they respond not by reconsidering their stance on abortion, but rather by moving even further into wingnut territory.
kommrade reproductive vigor
So. If embryos must be treated like children, does this mean that children can be treated like embryos?
I mean, think of the savings if you could just pack little Timmy in ice and tuck him in the freezer until the economy improved.
bootlegger
@ScreamingInAtlanta: Y’all make Kentucky look good!
forked tongue
The title of this post cracks my shit up.
schrodinger's cat
Shorter Ross Douthat:
I iz in Ur NY Times lecturing you about morality
DougJ
I almost took a job there. Really nice people in the math department there. Seems like a very nice city too.
Comrade Jake
@geg6:
Sorry, but I don’t see it. I’ve been reading the guy off and on for a couple of years now. His typical blog post at The Atlantic has been pretty well thought-out and reasonable. I know people are digging through his stuff left and right now, but I don’t think the sort of junk that’s getting a lot of attention is representative.
The NYT is well-served by someone who can put together well-thought out arguments from the right’s perspective, IMO. That is much more preferable than someone who’ll simply regurgitate talking points. But if he proves me wrong over the next year I’ll be the first to admit it.
jibeaux
@Martin:
Are you asking me if we should ban the destruction of pig embryos whose hoof DNA has been replaced, Folger’s crystals style, with human fingernail DNA, to produce possibly some sort of fantastic bacon/cosmetology school product? I will have to give that some thought… :)
Andrew
I think the reason that Ross gets so discombobulated about embryos is that he’s a total asshole.
Warren Terra
They can’t, for at least two reasons: (1) the clinics refuse to use them after a certain period of time, so "keeping them frozen forever" would amount to destruction; and (2) freezers eventually break, backup systems fail, clinics eventually go bankrupt, even trust funds set up to ensure the long-term cryostorage of a sample get robbed. There was a great story in Harpers (iirc; coulda been the Atlantic) a year or so ago about just such an issue with cryostorage of corpses (a much bigger job than storing a cryotube, which is about half the size of a typical pinky, but still).
People who are morally serious about believing that a fertilized oocyte is a human being write IVF laws that insist that all fertilized oocytes be implanted in the mother, and none be frozen, and furthermore limit the number that can be implanted. Really cuts down on the efficiency of the procedure, so having a baby by IVF takes longer, costs more, and is more likely to fail completely, disappointing a lot of would-be parents, and prevents the option of preimplantation genotyping to avoid known genetic diseases, and of course believing that a fertilized oocyte is a person requires a truly impressive ignorance of biology, but at least the godmongers passing those laws (as in, say, Italy) aren’t hypocrites like most of the anti-abortion people.
Dennis-SGMM
@Comrade Jake:
The only problem with advancing reasonable, well-thought out arguments from the right’s perspective is that we’ll be the only ones paying attention. The right doesn’t want reasonable and they rarely seem to take the time to think.
DougJ
@Comrade Jake
Although I’ve trashed him before, that was not my intent here. I think his arguments against Kinsley were presented weakly, but, as this Georgia law shows, he may be right anyway.
jibeaux
Or maybe the fingernail DNA, placed in the pig embryo, could create a human embryo, is that the idea? ‘Cause that would be trippy. My first reaction would be that there’s probably some political pressure against creating anything like that in the first place…. I seem to remember one of Bush’s weirder State of the Union addresses tackling the trenchant issue of animal-human hybrids…
I dunno, my point is more basic than that. There are entities that, left to their own devices, will eventually turn into a squalling bundle of joy and poo, and entities that won’t, is all.
mistermix
I always assumed that they would decay pretty quickly, but Google tells me not if they’re preserved perfectly. Even so, it sounds really expensive — it’s not like your Mom’s Kenmore deep freeze. Requiring clinics to freeze embryos indefinitely would probably raise the cost of a procedure that a lot of people already can’t afford.
anonevent
Slate has a post about one of their writers’ experience with IVF. In short, she had 19 eggs removed (surgery every time eggs are removed); thirteen of the 19 fertilized; luckily the first two implanted attached; of the 11 remaining, only six were successfully frozen. Under the new proposed Georgia law, only two eggs could have been removed at a time, and if those had not successfully fertilized, attached, and developed, the entire expensive and intense procedure would have had to be repeated since none could have been allowed to freeze.
This woman was lucky it worked the first time. Friends of mine took three tries for it to work.
The Other Steve
I don’t know if the Republicans will push the fertilization thing too far. I bet if you did a survey, you’d find it was the Pro-Life crowd who spent the most money trying to get pregnant. The whole Culture of Life, and Children are a Sacred Blessing from God and all that stuff.
I think people need to learn to accept God’s plan for them to not have children.
That being said, we’re one month away from the baby popping out. So I suppose I’m in no place to talk.
Warren Terra
This is undoubtedly true; but is it relevant to Douthat?
I’ve tried to read his blog before, because I think it’s important to find conservatives worth listening to, and I’ve found him to be glib and disingenuous at the best of times, and whenever religion or "social issues" are at hand he’s a blithering, bigoted moron.
Furthermore, Douthat doesn’t have the track record as a knowledgeable person that any of the other columnists have – the rest have decades as reporters or impeccable professional credentials (Dowd may be a moron, but she was a reporter for a long time and held the plum job of White House Correspondent; Kristol’s columns were dishonest and banal, but he was chief of staff to a Vice President, edited an opinion magazine for over a decade, and had other jobs as well; Krugman’s experience as an academic, consultant, published author, and even as a columnist for Slate were clear before he joined; and the rest of the current crop had decades as reporters and editors for the Times before they became columnists.
Douthat has had a minor job at the Atlantic for a few years, and he writes a blog that few people read or link to. The Times couldn’t do better? Even Frum would seem like an obvious improvement over Douthat …
gizmo
I’d like to hear Douthat explain how one can sanction all sorts of government intervention into intimate, life-and-death personal issues and still call oneself a "conservative."
Ejoiner
It’s hard to tell – I live in one of the more urban, educated areas of the state and I teach at one of the more successful, middle-class high schools so the crowd I mingle with doesn’t necessarily reflect the overall feeling of the population here. But even the Republicans in our state legislature are having fits about Sanford and today’s editorial page in the State paper was filled with anger towards his "policies."
Honestly, I just don’t get it here. We are #1 in all the worst categories and have been for generations and all my conservative friends just keep crowing about the wonderful leadership in the Republican party (versus those dasterdly Democrats in New England and Washington). Of course the real political language here is Republican = white/Democratic = black.
Comrade Jake
@Dennis-SGMM:
Well, I still think we should welcome well-thought out arguments when they are presented. If the left and center are the only ones paying attention to reasonable arguments, then the right is only further marginalized.
WarrenS
The Georgia legislators want to count the frozen embryos as humans in order to inflate their population numbers. Enough IVF clinics with walk-in freezers full of blastocysts or whatever will give Georgia’s proportional representation in the House a huge boost. It’ll be just like prison populations, only cheaper to maintain.
And by the way, I really, really, really hope that was snark, but I’m not sure about anything any longer.
DougJ
I agree. And that’s why I was sad to see the Times go with a theocon rather than someone like Larison or Matt Welch or Will Wilkinson.
I often find libertarian arguments interesting. They’re also crazy sometimes, I’ll admit.
But I just don’t ever find theocons like Douthat to be that interesting.
BDeevDad
How quickly will Emory, Georgia Tech, University of Georgia and other schools in Georgia doing stem cell research start losing faculty?
Comrade Jake
@Warren Terra:
I’m not suggesting he’s the best choice. I think there are a good number of other choices they could have made. I would have loved to have seen Larison get the gig. On balance, though, there’s no doubt in my mind that there are lots and lots of worse choices they could have made. I’m just suggesting people should give the kid a chance and approach his columns with an open mind. What is there to lose?
I think what appealed to the NYT is precisely how Douthat has handled religious issues. Here’s what Linker over at TNR had to say when his gig was announced:
DougJ
I think Douthat falls into both categories. That said, I agree they could have done worse.
Personally, I don’t think that they should have a conservative if they can’t find a good one. I don’t believe in that kind of quotaism.
Comrade Jake
@DougJ:
I struggle to understand their worldview at times, and so I find it interesting when it’s defended intelligently. If you’re not generally dismissive of all things religious (and I’m not suggesting you are), I think there’s a lot that can be learned here.
BDeevDad
A bit off topic, but related to medical research. Have any of the scientists here heard about the 23andMe Parkinson’s Disease initiative and have any thoughts? I have PD and am thinking about enrolling.
Cyrus
Good question. I’m not a doctor, but I believe there are no more barriers to human cloning in terms of the science of it; it just hasn’t been done because of the controversy that would result. From all sides.
But if I’m correct about that (and if it’s not true yet, it’s just a matter of time), then any bit of human tissue has potential to create new life, life as new and "real" as any pair of twins or parthenogenic animal. At first glance you might want to draw a distinction between a normal embryo that will become a viable person on its own and a cell that has to go through a complicated process to be turned into an embryo, but I don’t see much distinction between a cell used for cloning and an embryo in cold storage in a fertility clinic. They both will need medical intervention before having even the slightest chance of getting a birth certificate.
Ergo, if a frozen embryo is a human being, then so are my toenail clippings.
Dennis-SGMM
@Comrade Jake:
Thoughtful voices are always welcome with me. Lamentably, the The Terror being perpetrated on itself by the right will likely produce condemnation of Douthat by them before it produces any widespread consideration of his ideas.
Xanthippas
Douthat is just wrong. Conservatives can be accused of lacking moral seriousness about IVF because they lack moral seriousness about IVF. Why do I say that? Case in point: did you know that IVF clinics have admitted to using pre-implantation genetic diagnosis to help couples select for disabled children? The survey that particular data point comes from is almost three years old, but have you witnessed any moral outrage over this phenomenon from the culture warriors on the right? Or over a deaf couple using IVF to deliberately give birth to a deaf child? Yeah, me neither. But once some half-crazy woman pops out eight kids then dammit, it’s time to get some regulation in here! (And never mind that the woman claims to have had them so the embryos that were created during IVF were not destroyed…guess your little snowflakes" are allowed to become children only if your ass is planning on paying for them.)
But God forbid anyone accuse conservatives of being unserious, or unprincipled, or unthinking. That’s just beyond the pale.
Martin
The DNA is what makes it human. What I describe is probably not that far off technically. And yes, this is what Bush was referring to with human/animal hybrids in his SOTU address a few years back. And it sounds trippy, but then test-tube babies sounded trippy 40 years ago. The question is: "What about the embryo vessel makes it inherently human or otherwise?" We give pig insulin to people with diabetes. There are lots of animal components already used in human medicine and we’ve come to terms with all of them. What makes this one different?
No embryo, left to its own devices will turn into a person. It needs a host. We’ve never had a problem with adjusting that. There’s not much controversy over IFV and other procedures to help people get pregnant and stay pregnant, which is quite clearly intervening in the course of nature. I wouldn’t have kids without intervention because my wife could get pregnant, but had trouble staying pregnant. Since we’ve already dealt with these matters successfully, why is this next step so difficult, other than it is unfamiliar?
DougJ
I’ll tell you that, in the end, I have limited sympathy for Christian conservatives as intellectuals. As human beings, yes, as intellectuals, no.
I read the New Testament and Jesus was a pacifist socialist, if the gospels are an accurate portrayal of His teachings and beliefs. I’m not a pacifist or a socialist or a theocon, so I have no dog in this fight. I’m just calling it like I see it.
DougJ
@BDD
Could you explain a bit more about this? I had a hard time understanding it from the link, but it certainly sounds interesting.
Comrade Jake
@DougJ:
It’s just too easy to dismiss Christian conservatives outright like that though. Look, I’m a scientist, with over a thousand citations to my name. But I’m also a Christian (just a member of the most progressive denomination). If there is room for faith in this world, then there is room for intelligent discourse. I know it’s more the exception that the rule, but I think people like Andrew Sullivan and Ross Douthat have something to offer.
Warren Terra
@BDeevDad #46
All I know about the initiative is what I read in the Times. It sounds to me like you’re not likely to get much direct benefit from the initiative, certainly not anytime soon (I don’t do human genetics myself, but I’m not aware that the current genotyping services offer people a lot of information they can actually act on). On the other hand you’ve got nothing (well, almost nothing; $25 iirc) to lose, is sounds like the data would go to a good cause, and even if it doesn’t lead to help for your Parkinson’s you may have kids, nieces, nephews, or cousins that could benefit greatly. I’m all in favor.
Jinchi
I’m old enough to remember when condemning all IVF was the position of the pro-life community and a whole lot of other people as well (back when they were called "test tube babies").
I even remember Cokie Roberts fretting about it on the Sunday news shows.
Now everybody’s okay with IVF, but they freak out about clones.
Incertus
About the politics of this–it might not be as bad a wager for conservatives to go after IVF as it would seem at first glance, if only because of the relatively small numbers of people who go through it as compared to the general population. After all, it’s still a pretty intense and expensive proposition, though far cheaper than it was 15 years ago, and maybe Douthat figures that alienating a small group is worth it if he can get a larger group to latch onto a logically flawed objection to stem cell research. I’m not saying it’s a good idea–just saying that the numbers might mean it’s not as bad an idea as it seems at first glance.
Martin
Actually, that’s a great response – have the Dems suggest that if any state passes such a law that the 2010 census would be required to count all embryos for proportionate representation.
I’d be willing to bet that high-income states like California and New York have a shitton more clinics than Kentucky and Alabama.
El Cid
Because we value life so much, we need to pass a law requiring that every single frozen human embryo or egg cell be fertilized if need be and then implanted in women, with or without their permission, so that we could have hundreds of millions of new babies and see whatever consequences that might bring, all because we are totally horrified by the thought that one of these little frozen cell bits might not get the existential awe and reverence we think all human life deserves.
BDeevDad
@DougJ: Here’s the link to their site. On it are letters to the patient and scientific communities. The biggest concern I’ve seen is that 23andMe lacks an institutional review board (IRB).
DougJ
I don’t care if it’s easy, what I said is true. Blame them for giving me an easy reason for dismissing them, not me for using the reason.
That said, despite this, I do like Andrew Sullivan’s blog a lot.
Silver
If I was in Georgia, I’d adopt a couple of hundred embryos and claim them as dependents…
Comrade Jake
@DougJ:
I’m not blaming you for anything, just pointing out that it’s a blanket generalization. Clearly there are folks who don’t fit the mold.
BDeevDad
@Silver: That’s a court case I’d like to see.
Martin
It’s a bad wager. Every person will put themselves in the position of the person who can’t have kids. Or that their kids won’t be able to have kids and therefore they not have grandkids.
Even if it’s only 5% of the population, 80% of the population will assume they or someone in their immediately family might be in that 5%.
It’s a very bad wager.
DougJ
Douthat does though, IMHO.
les
I keep asking this; maybe I should give up. Have you read Larison much? His entire political/worldview says that you have no place at the table unless you come from his particular orthodox catholic apologetics. Yeah, he gets to some sane positions (re: war and US exceptionalism; but he’s also a strange version of libertarian with a "that’s ok, everyone will voluntarily be good about it ’cause god says so, so we won’t have no stinkin’ tolerance or diversity or nuthin"), and he can write like a motherfucker. But how the hell is he not a theocon? "Theo" is not restricted to the fundagelicals; see Douthat, Russ.
Incertus
@Martin: That’s the thing, though–voters don’t put themselves in other peoples’ positions very often. If they did, stem cell research would be winning by 40 or 50 points instead of the closer margins its seeing now, and we’d have had universal health coverage for decades. For all our talk about being empathetic, the reality seems to be that most of us have to step in it to find it; i.e. it has to affect someone we know or care about. Look at how many conversions on this sort of issue come about because a family member gets sick.
DougJ
You’re right.
But his arguments don’t seem as stereotypically theoconish as Douthat’s.
Comrade Jake
@DougJ:
Will you admit it if he proves otherwise? Are you even open to the possibility you might be wrong here?
DougJ
Of course. I think it’s very, very unlikely that I will be, though, in this case. These things are predictable.
BDeevDad
@Incertus: The reason stem cell research is not winning by 40-50 points is because of all the FUD and scientists are lousy marketers. On most stem cell threads the same arguments come up about Adult Stem cells work (the bullshit 70 cures list), embryonic cause cancer and there was never a ban. It’s the same talking points over and over and they are so ingrained it’s useless to argue.
Mayken
@Thursday As someone who has been trying to adopt for nearly 3 years, I can tell you that I would NEVER tell anyone that if they cannot have children through the usual way that they have no choice but to try to go through a rather fucked up system to build their family. My husband and I chose adoption for reasons other than fertility issues but it is not my call to tell someone else they cannot try that method.
Please, nobody try tell me how many children are out there in need of homes – we are quite aware of the fact but it is really not even close to that easy.
les
@DougJ:
Maybe; but that’s largely (I think) because most theocons are functionally illiterate. On substance, Larison is as big a godbot as any; the fact that his particular irrationality leads him to conclusions that are not always not sane doesn’t change that. He himself, in his posts and in comments I’ve exchanged with him, says he wouldn’t trust me (or, I’m guessin’, you) if (as I sometimes have) I agree with him, because my basis for agreement is not the bibble and is therefor suspect and unacceptable. Now, as I’ve said, he writes good and sometimes is sane, but he’s nothing if not an irrational theo.
Martin
Oh, sure they do – and stem cell research is already favored by 30% as of earlier this month.
The whole reason the Bush tax cuts were supported by the public is that a large enough chunk of the public figured they would benefit from them. It’s only now that the majority has lost their hope that they will move up in the world that you see this push back against any benefits for the wealthy.
But having children is one of those persistently optimistic things that everyone feels they have a right to. Hell, in 1978 60% of the public was in favor of IVF. 76% of the public today supports IVF and 63% think that it should be covered by insurance.
This is a seriously, seriously bad wager.
Et Tu Brutus?
I’m sorry, but the entire issue strikes me as the height of hypocrisy, given the country in which it takes place. Really, in a nation founded on one of the larger acts of near genocide, both culturally and biologically , in recent history; the only nation to date to use atomic weapons against humans, and the nation that just recently invaded another sovereign nation under false pretenses, killing 10 of thousands of women and children in the process, this issue has moral traction? Sweet baby jeebus on a bicycle, do we have no shame?
Martin
Hey, life begins at conception and ends at birth. It should be the GOP slogan.
les
@Mayken:
Totally right. We’ve adopted two; it took years, buku dollars, dealing with greedy sleazebags, administrative nightmares, blah blah blah. Eminently worth it; not for everyone, and not possible for everyone. Let’s keep allowing for as many channels as possible.
Comrade Jake
@DougJ:
Well, I think if your perspective is that you can’t respect the intellect of any theocon who doesn’t admit Jesus was a socialist, you’re always going to be disappointed. That is definitely predictable.
Comrade Jake
Oh man, the s-word got caught in moderation again. Yikes. You mean I can’t even edit that post? Here we go again:
@DougJ:
Well, I think if your perspective is that you can’t respect the intellect of any theocon who doesn’t admit Jesus was a s o c i a l i s t, you’re always going to be disappointed. That is definitely predictable.
AhabTRuler
Nope.
No self-awareness either.
BORN IN THE USA, I WAS BORN IN THE USA…
Mayken
One of the many things wrong with this legislation is that it completely misunderstands why there are "left-over" embryos. One of the reasons is because one has to make a lot of them to get a few that are viable. And once they are frozen the odds of bringing them to term go way down. We looked into embryo "adoption" as another option before deciding on adoption and were told the chances of being able to bring one of these "babies" to term was less than 20%. So at something along the lines of $20000 a try (the embryos themselves are not "sold" but there is a cost for transfer plus all the other drugs etc. for preparing the woman’s body) this is beyond the means of most middle-class folks to even try.
Comrade Stuck
@Comrade Jake:
I’m convinced that much of their worldview is a contrived amalgam of contrarian ideas often taken to extreme to set them apart from so called liberals.
Why would they do this? The better question might be what is it that motivates your average wingnut, more than anything. I think it’s a need to control that comes from a kind of systemic innate permeating fear. And what do people who are always afraid about everything do to compensate? They need to control their external world, and if they can pull that off, then they can not be afraid.
We live in a democracy where people vote for their leadership and offer solutions to make people feel secure and well off. So any party or group that wants to strike at that deepest primal need of feeling safe and secure will likely get more people to vote for them. Some of these folks are sincere in their beliefs and longing for a more controlled and ordered society. But many are nothing more than huckster charlatans who covet power.
A large number of us see this onerous tactic for what it is, and will likely never buy in. But there are those who are at times susceptible, and give in to let these people into power, and they do things like wiretap, torture, subvert science and mold the constitution into all sorts of means to further control and to enhance their power.
Up until GWB/Cheney, the country had chosen mostly people on the right who don’t necessarily have this perverted worldview, at least to a significant degree. We made a mistake but luckily have woke up and threw the bastards out of power, but the damage and legacy remains of a party geared to this sort of crap, mostly derived from southern ideology, with leadership and punditry frantically trying to keep it alive. We must not let them and work relentlessly to kill the beast, or at least send it into political oblivion.
End of sanctimonious rant.
BDeevDad
Another reason it will not be outlawed.
DougJ
I’d accept admitting that Jesus wouldn’t have driven nails through his body over a 4% in the marginal rate on income in excess of 250K.
And you know what, I’m still always disappointed.
Mayken
@les It is heart breaking right now. But I try to keep perspective. Thanks for reminding me that it will be worth it! :-)
les
@Mayken:
Hang in, girl (he says, assumptively). Speaking as a lawyer, the process will introduce you to some of the sleaziest folks around, huge conflicts of interest and crazy laws. But absolutely worth it. My two are hopin’ for ya, you bet. Also.
TheFountainHead
This is completely off topic, and I don’t mean to pearl clutch (if that is indeed what I’m doing) but can someone with a little more knowledge give me the other side of this story at least?
Punchy
One prolonged power outtage in Buckhead and an IVF clinic owner is going to jail on probably 300,000 counts of infantcide.
BDeevDad
@TheFountainHead: Here you go.
Martin
It’s in there bro:
Luke 23:2
AhabTRuler
Shit, just dropping a rack of cryotubes (what an awesome word!) will get you the chair.
TheFountainHead
@BDeevDad: Thanks. I wasn’t going to trust the American Legion, particularly after reading the comment section, but I didn’t really have much else to go on.
AhabTRuler
@Martin: Christ is the tax attorney that I admire the most.
jcricket
Word.
Conservatives have reached the point where most of their positions are opposed by most of the population. And the more they "embrace" the full extent/logic of those positions, the more they turn people off.
So it is with global warming denialism and rejection of all things environmental; wanting to ban stem cell research, then IVF; wanting to ban some abortions, all abortions, then birth control; Opposing gay marriage, then gay adoption, then any gay civil rights at all.
Basically the GOP is committed to social policies that doom them to minority status. I think they’re reaching that point with economic policies as well (tax cuts uber alles, but no useful spending, and no government help for anyone but the really really rich) – but it’s more obvious socially.
Martin
@AhabTRuler: I’ve long considered writing a wingnut Bible – one with a more generous translation to directly support various GOP positions such as torture of Muslims, anti-immigration, supply side economics, warrantless wiretapping, permanent occupation of Iraq, unfettered access to assault rifles, and others.
It’d be a lot of work, but I think I’d make more money than Oprah.
Mayken
@les You assume correctly. ;-) And thanks again!
Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s
I’ve been railing against mitosis for years.
Won’t anyone join my cause?
Brandon T.
WHAT?! Excels at defending his beliefs? The typical Douthat argument against something that challenges his beliefs is:
1) Assertion that some critics believe x in opposition to him
2) Superficial explanation of the arguments of x
3) Blithe rejection of x, not based on the grounds of the argument, but based on incompatibility with his own philosophical/religious axioms
When I think of someone who "excels at defending their beliefs", I think of a true apologist; someone who hears a threatening argument to their faith, and then reasons through the opponent’s logic and arguments to demonstrate to them, in their own terms, why they are wrong. All Doubthat excels at is explaining to others who already believe the same axioms as himself why the argument of other people with different axioms is wrong.
AhabTRuler
No thank you, I already use Listerine.
Jess
@Martin:
The Bible is already there–read the Old T lately? Freakin’ scary! I tried to read it a few times to try to understand what the buzz was about, and recoiled in horror and shock–people base their morals on this shit?!? No wonder we’re in such bad shape!
Roger Moore
@jibeaux:
No. There are no entities that "left to their own devices" will turn into babies. Even viable embryos require the assistance of a uterus and thus, of course, a woman for approximately 9 months. The ability of "pro life" types to ignore the vital contribution of the mother to the baby’s development is why their ideas are viewed so dimly by people who believe that women’s rights are important.
AhabTRuler
Jesus Christ, Superstar!
(Do you think you’re what they say you are?)
Comrade Darkness
my own suspicion is that the fertility clinic problem has occurred to many pro-lifers, but they keep quiet about it because they have no interest in restricting the breeding of white, wealthy couples
–fixed
Man nots can haz babies hisself so man invents religions to control wombs for his use. End of story.
Martin
See, but that requires interpretation and shit. I’m thinking direct support for wingnut positions – Saul driving the Philistines out using a modified full auto, extended clip assault rifle. Get rid of the arbitrariness of 35% vs 39% top marginal rates by specifying that the Romans wanted a 39% top marginal tax rate but Paul held tight to a top 35%. Insert Reagan in the begats. Put in direct opposition to Prop 8 by Jesus himself.
The best part is that every few years it would need to be revised to cover the newest talking points. That’s the biggest downside to the Bible now – limited repeat business due to a lack of planned obsolescence. I’ve got that baked in, baby!
TenguPhule
See you’re trying to apply logic to the wingnuts again. It is an attempt doomed to failure in the womb.
Martin
Oh, for the most recent edition, Mary would present Jesus’ original, notarized certificate of live birth as well as hers showing that she was in the country for 5 years after the age of 14 at the time of his birth before Jesus would be proclaimed the Son of God.
Jess
Not really–go check out the aftermath of the Golden Calf episode. Or the story of Lot. Or the Levite and his concubine. Or…well, you get the idea. Entire families slaughtered! Gang rape! Cities destroyed! Incest! Etc! And those are mostly the good guys following God’s will…
Comrade Stuck
@Martin:
Great Idea. You could make millions. 70% of the population, give or take, might read it for dark humor, 20% as the New Gospel according to erstwhile Prophet Martin. The remaining 10% of us could use it to line the kitty litter, or as backup toilet paper.
Roger Moore
@Martin:
There’s a whole bunch of great stuff you could include. Some suggestions:
– The eleventh commandment: Thou shalt not speak ill of other Republicans.
– God deciding to replace Saul as king for failing to torture the Amalakites.
– Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed for allowing gay marriage.
– Joseph saves Egypt from the seven lean years by privatizing Social Security.
– You can serve both God and Mammon.
– God secretly spent the Seventh Day creating fake fossils to make it look like there had been evolution.
You can definitely go to town with Proverbs and the Sermon on the Mount. Any time you’ve got long lists of homilies and wise sayings, it’s easy to slip in support for any crazy idea that needs a bit of propping up. That’s the place of all of the latest, quick turn-over wingnut talking points.
CD
Comrade Stuck writes,
Wow. This, and the rest of your comment post, above, is not a "rant" at all, but IMHO is solid gold. One of the most cogent, insightful explanations of the present-day Conservative affliction that I’ve ever seen. I usually enjoy your comments here, but I believe this one is in a class of its own.
AnneLaurie
Ross Douthat writes the sort of spritely, multisyllablic pieces about libertarianism and politics-as-sport that would not have seemed out of place in any middle-brow American publication from the period between, say, 1885 and 1935. (In fact, since I assumed he must have been fixated during his literary infancy by old New Yorker columns, I thought he must be at least old enough for the AARP.) It’s only when he starts talking about Teh Filthy, Dirty Seks and the general class of Wimmen whose Vile, Ghod-besmitten ladybits are responsible for Teh Seks that he goes into full-frothing-wingnut mode. And for a lot of thoughtful center-to-left-leaning Not-Wimmen who don’t mind warmed-over Mencken minus the gritty bits, all that paranoid fugbuckery about Teh Wimmens doesn’t really count *against* the guy, because, well — it’s only women, innit? All that stuff about embryos & pregnancy and so forth… just a little personality quirk of interest only to those who have some sort of unnatural fixation on topics that don’t really matter to the Great Minds of Great Men, amirite?
Comrade Stuck
@CD:
Why thank you CD. Your check is in the mail.
just kiddin’. Thanks for compliment:)
Comrade Darkness
@Roger Moore,
bit OT, but you’ve seen the LOLcat bible, right?
pseudonymous in nc
@102: they ain’t called ‘snowflakes’ for nothing.
cain
@kid bitzer:
QOTD!
cain
Martin
Holy hell that’s funny.
Comrade Stuck
@Comrade Darkness:
Tee Hee:)
cain
Don’t worry, the pro-lifers will change their positions as soon as they find out that most of the babies are all black and hispanic and white babies are coming out as fast at all. Everybody is birthing welfare babies. They’ll head will explode since they can do nothing about it.
Of course they could revert to the southern baptist pre-civil war era definition of the negro and call them ‘sub human’. I guess that would make it easy for abortions, amirite?
[/snark]
cain
bago
Can’t wait for the inevitable prosecution case that would be brought against god hisself.
Who am I kidding, they’ll just prosecute them wimmenz with barren wombs.
Roger Moore
@Comrade Darkness:
Yeah, I know about it, but it strikes me a bit like translating Shakespeare into Klingon. I appreciate that people are doing it because they think it’s fun, but it wouldn’t qualify as the easiest reading translation I’ve seen. That said, I’m disappointed that they haven’t finished translating Deuteronomy 24 yet. I’d love to see how they translate Deut. 24:16 ("The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." –KJV) into LOLspeak.
BDeevDad
I highly recommend Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal. Although it is the opposite of the wingnut Bible.
liberal
DougJ wrote,
Fixt.
liberal
@Comrade Stuck:
Perhaps true of the Presidency, but definitely wrong in terms of Congress—see 1994.
Not entirely. They’re still doing damage in the legislative branch, even as a minority.
El Cid
How many frozen babies has Douthat saved? He should personally have at least several hundred thousand children by now.
Comrade Stuck
@liberal:
I sometimes wonder if your as anal as you appear.
A Mom Anon
@BDeevDad:
That’s one of my favorite books ever. Laugh out loud funny.
Jon H
I hope IVF clinics mail flasks of nitrogen-frozen embryos to the Georgia governor.
It’d be like a ticking timebomb – keep the nitrogen filled, Gov, or you’ll be responsible for the death of the embryos.
Cyrus
@TheFountainHead: You apparently seem satisfied by that, so can you explain it to me? As far as I can tell, the date is the only clue I can see that his link and yours are talking about the same thing.
El Cid
@Jon H: If someone took one of those flasks, would you have a hostage negotiation situation on your hands?
And if the refrigeration / coolant failed, would it be mass murder? A terrorist act?
geg6
@Comrade Jake:
That may be true for you, but I don’t need to learn anything at all about that mindset from him. I’ve lived it. And I’m dismissive of not just all things religion, but most especially and specifically conservative Catholic thought like Douthat’s because I know it so very well. And I’ve read more of his writing than just his blogging. Brad deLong has him pegged on not just his hypocritical religious spoutings but his deep and abiding misogyny. Which is rampant in conservative Catholic circles. They hate and fear women every bit as much as the Taliban or Wahhabism. Or Maureen Dowd, for that matter.
Comrade Stuck
Looks like the Villagers are circling the wagons around themselves. Richard Cohen offers this profundity today.
Didn’t know, huh. Some kind of business guru punditry they are. And because, in the third person columnist hack Richard Cohen didn’t know, how was business guru pundit Cramer to know.
Cohen says Cramer didn’t know, but admitted he knew, because Cohen shrunk Cramers head and diagnoses…..
Yes, Stockholm Syndrome. that was it. Cohen then enlists fellow hack Villager Wa Post orb Howie Kurtz to back him up with.
The classic "We were all clueless idiots" defense. Where have we heard that before?
Clueless Village Idiots — 0
Fake news comedian — 1,345
jibeaux
Oh, good grief, guys, I know that an embryo requires a host, I’ve hosted two of them myself. Hell, they’re 7 and 3 now and they practically require a host. I was making a simple point, not delving into complicated bioethics involving pig people fashioned from fingernails. I agree that there is something different about a frozen lab embryo and an embryo created the usual way and residing in its usual place. So, to sum up my sliding scale as it goes from "Most resembling life" to "least resembling life":
Embryo in mama -> embryo in frozen petri dish -> fingernail -> Paul L.
I hope that helps.
Dennis-SGMM
@Comrade Stuck:
Richard Cohen, 2/6/2003
No wonder he wants to let Cramer off the hook.
crustacean
Either it doesn’t serve their ends to contemplate or they’re just too fucking stupid to figure that out, or both, although I’m going with Door #2.
Comrade Stuck
@Dennis-SGMM:
Yup!
ksmiami
My solution is that all these wierdos should stop using any modern medical technology at all, no condoms, no birth control, NO effin ASPIRIN. Really, I am so sick of these people having any voice in this at all. They are crazy and want to punish women for having sex. If you have seen some of the people who sit outside of clinics, they probably never even have sex anyway so hopefully they will just die off and improve our gene pool in the long run.
jibeaux
Allright, Cole, new thread or I’m going to start telling cute kindergarten stories about the embryos I’ve hosted …you’ve been warned…
aimai
OK, you guys asked for it. LOL Catz has nothing on LegoLeviticus.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/sexual_discharges/lv15_16a.html
aimai
MR Bill
For what it’s worth, I’m seeing some press suggesting the insane Georgia Embryo bill (supported by the odious Gov. Sonny Purdue) will languish in committee, opposed by the biomedical lobby, and come back next year.
There are liberals in rural Georgia, but sometimes it gets lonely…
AnneLaurie
Ah, yes, Richard "Caligula’s Horse" Cohen. It’s not that he’s a bad domestic beast of burden, but his very investiture as a representative of "serious media" indicates how lowly his masters regard the whole concept of "serious" news in today’s America.
Dennis-SGMM
Well there’s the answer: let all of the male politicians who are so concerned about these embryos have them implanted and bring them to term. I’m almost certain that if medical science can come up with the means to enable these selfless pols to put their bodies in line with their rhetoric they’ll be lining up for it.
Comrade Stuck
@Dennis-SGMM:
A nine pound youngin’ out the pee hole. I birthed a couple of 6mm stones and it damn near killed me.
Face
Whomever provided that link to the LOLCATSbible, HOLY SHIT is that funny.
I’m going to waste precious work minutes laffin mai azz off, lol, can i haz raise, boss?
Dennis-SGMM
Now that would definitely change the debate on abortion and birth control.
R-Jud
Re the wingnut bible:
Surely someone else here has seen Supply Side Jesus.
Jen R
You know, I’m pro-life and I think IVF should be covered by insurance. One of the biggest reasons we have this problem with huge numbers of embryos being created and frozen is that an IVF cycle is so expensive (and so often uninsured) that couples want to go through as few as possible. Not that it would be a picnic if it were cheaper, but the cost is definitely a big factor. So, large numbers of embryos get created so that you don’t have to do the egg-harvesting step again, then (often, not always) relatively large numbers are transferred to increase the likelihood that at least one will implant and grow. And if several implant, well, you have abortion of the "extras" or a pregnancy that’s unsafe for all concerned.
IVF can be done with smaller numbers of embryos implanted, and none deliberately destroyed. It’s done that way in other countries. However, it does mean that any given IVF cycle has a lower chance of success. If people are serious about restricting the number of embryos created at a time and about saying that all embryos need to be implanted rather than frozen or destroyed, then you need insurance coverage of IVF and more research into ways to freeze ova instead of embryos (that’s coming along, but isn’t ready yet).
ChicagoPat
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the GOP found another minority (infertile couples) to alienate and piss off? Might cause some would-be grandparents to reconsider their vote…
itsbenj
Ugh, there is so much wrong with this whole argument I don’t even know what to say. Even Kinsley allows that discarding unused embryos is ‘slaughter’. Idiots.
And the GA bill is unconstitutional for many, many reasons, not just that it would infringe on abortion rights. Its the same arguments against that applied to the simliar measure which failed in CO this past fall. If every embryo is considered a ‘child’, they have to be named, given social security numbers, listed at an address, have a ‘birth certificate’ (???) etc. The idea is simply ridiculous on its face, not worthy of a serious debate.
But really, there is no serious argument about this. This is pure Puritanism at its worst. The people opposed to stem cell research do not care about children, fetuses or embryos. They don’t care about science and don’t care to know any more than they already do. They don’t care about quality of life, they don’t care about ‘sanctity’ of life, they don’t care about disease, helping people live longer and better, they don’t care about anything but winning an argument somewhere, and getting one over on someone. If that means doing their best to make sure that medical care is stunted and inhibited, making sure people suffer and die, that is 100% fine with them. They DO NOT CARE.
Mike in NC
SC’s wingnut governor Mark Sanford has an op-ed running in many of the state’s newspapers today, in which he trashes the federal stimulus funds. The title: "Too Much Money Can Be a Bad Thing".
I often tell my wife the same thing but then she just walks away shaking her head…
Mary
@ScreamingInAtlanta:
As a West Texan-I feel your pain
Glidwrith
Representative Duncan Hunter has introduced legislation at the Federal level as well that fertilized eggs=person.
Also, has it occurred to anyone that the stem cells derived from the eggs are immortal? Think about that – the genetic material that is supposedly so unique that the pro-lifers can’t bear the thought of it being lost – ISN’T. If you want science fiction, wait around another 10-20 years. All of those stem cell lines will still be there and nothing says that the "person" can’t eventually be retrieved and implanted.
Craig
I don’t know Ross and am only becoming exposed to his thinking, such as it is, but I don’t think he is actually as thick as he pretends to be, and can only assume he is being dishonest when he tries to pull a stunt like claiming that
"most pro-lifers would like to heavily regulate fertility clinics…" Nonsense. Oh, if you sat down and talked with them all, one at a time, you would probably find plenty of people who would say, "Well, yes, I suppose fertility clinics are a problem, but…" Always a but. There’s no priority, no urgency. How many picket lines at fertility clinics? How many political campaigns? How many mass emails?
No one fundamentally cares, even though, if you take the pro-life crowd at their word, any fertility clinic is the most gruesome, evil, loathsome place you could hope to find–a kind of mad-science laboratory where human beings are deliberately brought into existance to be slaughtered by the hundreds, or frozen (with their fresh human souls permanently attached–never forget that) for essentially all time, or until someone gets around to slaughtering them.
But nice people use fertility clinics! Rich people! Conservative people who would never have an icky abortion–they’re just willing to send any number of human beings, morally equivalent to any four-year-old child, to their deaths so that they can have their perfect little angel.
If Ross and any of these idiots believed this garbage, they would be in the streets right now.
binzinerator
@geg6:
Which is why I half the time I mentally refer to him as ‘Douchethat’.
The other half of the time I call him ‘Doubtthat’, as in I read some of his conclusions and I think ‘doubt that’.
binzinerator
@jibeaux:
Surely there is another step between ‘fingernail’ and ‘Paul L’.
Something like ‘week-old caked snot in a used kleenex’. Or maybe ‘fresh dog vomit’.