Heh. Indeed. Read the whole thing. Ouch! We’re winning.
3.
handy
ZOMG Magical Unity Pony is just a POLITICIAN!!!!! Say ain’t so, Bo!
4.
Emma Anne
Feature request: I would like a button at the bottom of the page after all the comments that takes me to the home page or (even better!) to the next post or last post. Otherwise I have to scroll and click more than one button and that’s too much work.
5.
Cris
For some reason, ever since Jesse Taylor came back to Pandagon, I’ve almost completely stopped reading it. Strangely enough, I think it’s because he posts too often. I like his style and his analysis, but I just can’t keep up.
6.
w vincentz
I’ll just quote Jackie Gleason.
“Humin’ a humin” ah!”
“To the moon Alice (Barack). TO THE MOON!”
I swear to all that the Obama camp finds holy, if Obama does not change his stance on such an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of civil liberties that was the warrantless wiretapping I will hereby not vote for him and you can damn well better believe I will make sure those around me don’t either.
9.
handy
I swear to all that the Obama camp finds holy, if Obama does not change his stance on such an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of civil liberties that was the warrantless wiretapping I will hereby not vote for him and you can damn well better believe I will make sure those around me don’t either.
Ahhh, a McCain voter, I see.
10.
Pb
The Disenfranchised Voter,
What, are you for telecom immunity or something?
11.
Cassidy
Jesse Taylor
Well what did you expect after he got kicked off the Ultimate Fighter?
12.
vwcat
I just read in TIME about why the democrats went along with the bill.
Pelosi is pushing for some things that she got and it was also to protect those in the fall in red districts.
But, the biggest reasons are that they wanted this off the table during the election season and Pelosi wanted to move this so Obama could appear more centrist to those worried he is too far to the left.
I thought that was why Obama is going along with it. it’s political for the election and Pelosi got some compromises she wanted.
Not saying I agree or am happy but, I felt this is pure positioning and had to do with the election and i realize that politics have to be played right now.
I will hereby not vote for him and you can damn well better believe I will make sure those around me don’t either.
Wow, you are a very powerful person. I myself control only one vote.
So who will your posse vote for? Have you considered Lou Ferrigno?
14.
Cassidy
I swear to all that the Obama camp finds holy, if Obama does not change his stance on such an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of civil liberties that was the warrantless wiretapping I will hereby not vote for him and you can damn well better believe I will make sure those around me don’t either.
Doesn’t count if it isn’t written in blood you pussy.
Stance?
I need a consult with the master of the stance, wide is good.
Ring, ring,
Larry Craig: Hello?
Caller: Hey, I need advice on “stance”.
LC: Huh?
Caller: Is wide better? With or without foot tapping?
LC: What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
Caller: I’ve taken some heat about my stance and need some advice.
LC: So have I. So, what do you need to know?
Caller: I want to know about the best stance, and not that kind in a men’s bathroom in an airport restroom.
LC: What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
Caller: Stance….the best one.
LC:Are you a Catholic altar-boy or something?
Caller: No, I just want to know the best stance, so my butt is covered and not invaded.
LC: Huh? Iraq was invaded and the US took it in the butt.
Caller: Huh? Stance. No, I’m not a Catholic altar-boy. I’m a presidential candidate.
LC: Huh? I’ll just advise you. If you have a wide one, don’t tap your foot.
Caller: Huh? What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
click.
21.
Just Some Fuckhead
sighhhhh…
Yes let’s vote D no matter what. That’s a good idea!
Fuck that!
And you damn well better believe I’d never vote for John McCain:
Dawg, your comments are practically begging for more exclamation points and capitalized words. Right now, you’re just some random shitforbrains doing lackluster spoof in an open thread on a b-list blog. But add some more exclamation points and words in allcaps and suddenly you’re transformed into a magical outrage troll capable of monopolizing an entire thread and jacking the comment count up to 300 comments in no time flat. Something to think about. I just want to see you grow and realize your full potential.
22.
Ted
I like this new concern troll.
23.
D. Mason
Stance?
I need a consult with the master of the stance, wide is good.
Ring, ring,
Larry Craig: Hello?
Caller: Hey, I need advice on “stance”.
LC: Huh?
Caller: Is wide better? With or without foot tapping?
LC: What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
Caller: I’ve taken some heat about my stance and need some advice.
LC: So have I. So, what do you need to know?
Caller: I want to know about the best stance, and not that kind in a men’s bathroom in an airport restroom.
LC: What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
Caller: Stance….the best one.
LC:Are you a Catholic altar-boy or something?
Caller: No, I just want to know the best stance, so my butt is covered and not invaded.
LC: Huh? Iraq was invaded and the US took it in the butt.
Caller: Huh? Stance. No, I’m not a Catholic altar-boy. I’m a presidential candidate.
LC: Huh? I’ll just advise you. If you have a wide one, don’t tap your foot.
Caller: Huh? What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
click.
shorter larry craig: When you’re on the crapper, don’t be a tapper?
I’m confrused.
24.
nightjar
I swear to all that the Obama camp finds holy, if Obama does not change his stance on such an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of civil liberties that was the warrantless wiretapping I will hereby not vote for him
When I was little, when i didn’t get my way, I punished the world by holding my breath so everyone would notice my outrage. They didn’t and all I accomplished was giving myself a good case of the Whirllys.
25.
t jasper parnell
b-list blog
Pish Tosh. Kathy Griffin.
Did you know that Hulu has Lost in Translation and the Daily Show and Colbert. Can someone explain to me how this can be legal. Hulu = Highly Unlikely Legal Undertaking?
26.
Pb
The Disenfranchised Voter,
If he does vote for an immunity bill, I’ll be pissed at him too. Guess what? He hasn’t, and he likely won’t. Get a clue, man.
Pb, thanks for the eloquent response. And yes, if he votes against, I too will be please.
However, Just some fuckhead (and the name truly fits) you can go pound sand up your mother fucking ass. The mere fact that you think I’m some spoofer shows that youre nothing but a nub here and need to, in the words of clint eastwood, Shut your face.
28.
demimondian
The Disenfranchised Voter…
Obama has said that he will work to get the immunity provisions removed from the bill, but that the majority of the bill is an improvement and is acceptable. I haven’t read it; he has. Depending on what the bill says, that may well be a reasonable conclusion — and, like I said, *I haven’t read it*.
Have you? Pb, have you? Has anyone? I certainly agree that with the immunity language, it is unacceptable; without the immunity language, I don’t know. I’m willing to wait and see. Why don’t you do the same? We’ll get our chance.
— demi “you know it’s bad when *Cole* isn’t flying off the handle” mondian
29.
w vincentz
D Mason,
Very good. Crapper/tapper…it’s all in the stance.
As LBJ used to say, “Don’t pussy-foot”.
Geesh, now it sounds like I’m the one that doesn’t know what the fuck I’m talkin’ about.
Alas, didn’t mean to cause confusion at ya.
I’ll just say that unwide is better. Keeps one out of trouble, doncha know.
30.
The Moar You Know
What Fuckhead said. Here’s how you do it rite:
COWARDS, ALL OF YOU
HAI GUYZ I’M A RETARD LET’S VOTE D NO MATTER WHAT. HOLY FUCK, I AM IN THE BAG FOR THE MUP SO HARD I JUST WANT HIS LITTLE BLACK BABIES!1!!ONE 11!11TWO11!ELEVEN!1!11 i’M NOT RACIST EITHER SO SHUT UP ALREADY.
FUCK, THAT’S A GOOD IDEA – HEY, HEAR’S ONE – HOWZABOUT INSTEAD OF VOTING FOR A NAZI THAT WOULD GIVE AWAY ALL OUT RIGHTS, LET’S NOT.
HILLARY, BITCHES11!ONE1!!
DON’T GET ME WRONG, I’M IN THE DEMOCRAT PARTY AND WOULD NEVER VOTE FOR MCCAIN.
That’s how you do it rite.
31.
srv
in the words of clint eastwood, Shut your face.
ppGaz, I mean just some f*head, has been afraid of Clint since The Gauntlet went through his hood.
32.
t jasper parnell
I read parts of it and it is long and complicated the 802 Section sucks, I think, not because it attacks or takes away civil liberties but because it forestalls legal remedies against non-state actors and suggests, as I read it, that citizens and corporations ought assume that when the state or a government makes a request the request is legal, despite it clearly — in this case — not being legal.
33.
D. Mason
Don’t pussy-foot
If I recall, representative Craig’s footing had nothing at all to do with pussy of any sort.
34.
Just Some Fuckhead
However, Just some fuckhead (and the name truly fits) you can go pound sand up your mother fucking ass. The mere fact that you think I’m some spoofer shows that youre nothing but a nub here and need to, in the words of clint eastwood, Shut your face.
Sorry dawg, you’re only as good as your last overwrought internet missive: your BJ pedigree ain’t popping up when I hover over your comments.
35.
srv
you know it’s bad when Cole isn’t flying off the handle
Well said, but it would be equivalent to “self-immolation” for MUP to do otherwise.
I want to thank you for introducing my better half Grumpy Code Monkay to No Quarter. He’s been bored lately with his normal blog reading/board posting. He’s now a trolling No Quarter. I haven’t seen this man having this much fun poking stupid people with a stick in a long time.
That crazy man giggling you hear coming from Texas is GCM every time he posts on No Quarter. In fact he’s beyond proud that they are starting to delete his posts. You’ve created a monster, John.
39.
t jasper parnell
Tiger Woods’ victory, given the injury and related whatnot, was amazing.
40.
w vincentz
D Mason,
Correct. No pussy involved.
Geesh, I’m setting myself up to being called the “M” word.
Anyway, I have a good recipe if you’re interested.
Tastes like chicken/clams.
41.
demimondian
Sorry dawg, you’re only as good as your last overwrought internet missive: your BJ pedigree ain’t popping up when I hover over your comments.
Okay, you guys are going to need to form two lines.
Here, drunk:
Here, sober:
And … what? I am not JSF or anyone else. I do one persona, and this is it. I think I have done about a dozen posts this year under another handle, and pretty everybody who wasn’t drunk knew it was me the first day.
And … what? DougJ? DougJ is a persona, like me, whose creator also does spoof. I basically don’t do spoof. Too much work, not enough pay. Keeping the handles straight, pain in the ass.
43.
t jasper parnell
last comment for a while, I hate baseball but not America.
44.
srv
Y’all gave up too quick on the other thread, John O is trying to surrender.
45.
gbear
I’m still voting for Obama. You’d be really fucking stupid not to vote for Obama. You’re insane if you won’t vote for the guy because he’s not giving you everything you want.
Bottom line. Supreme Court. Obama = good. McCain = absolutely fucking awful.
46.
Rick Taylor
John, since when did you become so prophetic? You write:
The best part of this election is about to start, though- we are going to be treated to months of folks on the right learning Obama really is not as liberal as they think he is and becoming upset that they can not simply attack him as a radical left-winger (although some morons will still continue with the Marxist nonsense because it is all they know), all the while having to watch left-wingers kvetch and moan as they learn he really is not as liberal as they thought he was and that he will move to the center to and compromise.
Then within an hour, a butch of left wingers are kvetching and moaning as they learn Obama is not as liberal as they thought (or more accurately, is a politician who’s motivated as much by pragmatism as ideological purity). That is impressive. Did being a conservative for so long give you insight into left wing foibles?
Everything I want? No fuck that, that is not what this is about.
This is about a man who has talked of change, who has led us to believe he would stand up for what is right.
This is not about a single issue. This is about whether Obama is who he actually says he is and whether he actually believes in what he spews.
Let’s take a a little trip back to 2000. I remember a candidate who said he wasn’t tainted by Washington. That he wanted to bring “change”. He sure as hell wasn’t a nation builder. And he swore that he was a different type of Republican.
Just like Obama says hes a different type of Democrat.
How the hell should I be so sure that this isn’t some sort of angle. I tend to think that actions speak louder than words. Obama may talk a tough game but if he goes and votes to immunize such an outrageous and illegal program then he is nothing but all talk in my opinion.
Do I still hope he beats John McCain?–You’re damn right I do. But I could not, and would not, in good conscience vote for him.
Hopefully–if he stupidly does vote for the immunity–he will be elected and prove me wrong.
Though I prefer for him to be the change candidate he claims to be and I can confidently vote for him.
48.
Just Some Fuckhead
And … what? I am not JSF or anyone else.
I tell you with certainty, before a rooster crows this very night, you will deny me three times.
John, since when did you become so prophetic? You write:
Well it was pretty obvious that once Obama did something the left didn’t like the blogosphere was going to blow up. The left has just as many purists as the right. You can’t be all things to all people.
..and no I don’t agree with this abortion of a law, but I’m confused. As a Senator what exactly is Obama supposed to be doing? This is a House bill and strictly in Pelosi and Hoyer’s court.
Fuck all this serious talk. I declare a bad video war, and I’m leading off with some Klingons singing a fucked up version of Bohemian Rhapsody.
Brian +4
54.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
before a rooster crows goat blows this very night, you will deny me three times.
How did you know I have a rooster goat?
Fixt, for awareness of all Balloon-Juice Goat Blowing traditions.
OK, now seriously. Was anything of consequence said of the other threads (250+ comments per, and counting) about Obama, Telecomms and all? Or was it all sound and fury signifying nothing? I’m not in the mood to read 500+ comments so I’d appreciate the Paul Harvey “the rest of the story” quick summary and cut to the punchline, if anyone here would be so kind as to provide it, in like 500 words or less.
Well, TDV, John Dean, not KO, is the one saying that. And Dean is a lawyer of some renown. Go Google “john dean watergate” and see for yourself.
Why? It’s easier to post in the comments section on BJ screaming about how you’re a Dem and not going to vote for Obama.
57.
JC
vwcat,
Thanks for the pointer and the link. I’ve been sitting here, simply wondering, what the hell was the reason that Pelosi did this. Even if you accept the fait accompli that TZ and Cole keep saying “it’s a done deal”, “he isn’t superman”, “he was against it”, etc – which in the case of he’s against it, is only partially true, and it seems he will vote for this bill – at least the rationale for the dems doing this is laid out.
Now let’s look at the rationale:
First of all, Pelosi wanted the issue off the table for the political campaign this fall. Despite anti-GOP sentiment in the country and record low popularity for President George W. Bush, Democrats still trail on national security and that could hurt them in Congress.
Did this hurt them so far this year? did this hurt the Democrats in February? Didn’t we just have a couple of Democrats elected, BECAUSE they stood strong on this issue?
So that reason is doubtful.
In negotiations with Pelosi’s office, the telecoms offered a compromise: Let a judge decide if the letters they received from the Administration asking for their help show that the government was really after terrorist suspects and not innocent Americans.
Hmm, from what I’ve read of the bill, it doesn’t seem the judge GETS to judge – but I would be happy to be wrong – all the judge GETS to do is to receive the acknowledge of an official notification from DNI or the AG to the telecoms. But doesn’t have the ability to order discovery. Which means, this rationale is just a snow job.
Correct me if I’m wrong on this, but isn’t this how the bill reads?
Pelosi’s negotiators felt that was a significant concession. The California district judge who will make the decision in such cases has been sympathetic to some of the civil libertarians’ claims.
Well, not if this is a misstatement of what the bill does, which I think it is – I would be happy to be proved wrong.
Pelosi also got other improvements, including a review of and report on Bush’s domestic surveillance program by the Justice Department inspector general and a provision making clear that Congress does not give the President a free pass on complying with domestic surveillance laws during wartime. “This bill strengthens Congressional oversight,” Pelosi argues.
That’s just B.S political speak. What prevents the IG from certifying to Congress, all the while, having a camera in every Congressmen’s bedroom?
unlike some on the left, she actually believes domestic surveillance laws needs updating in light of the new terror threats. “We can’t go without a bill,” she said on the House floor Friday, “That’s simply just not an option.”
This has been hit on before, in an exchange with Greenwald and Joe Klein. Greenwald has pointed out, a few different times, as have others, that the capacity ALREADY exists in the FISA law to made modifications to existing technology – in fact, this has been done at least four times, since the law was passed.
So again, this assertion doesn’t seem true.
So all we are left with, is the political judgment – which doesn’t seem backed up by the polls, and the reality of elections the last two years.
Truly – I don’t believe that these people are idiots. They know all the points I make above.
So – what is the real reason??????
58.
CarolinCA
Demimondian –
I read the thing, and then asked a friend who’s an attorney to translate some of it for me to be sure I was understanding it.
The new bill updates the 1970s FISA law with new technologies in mind. In doing so, it seems to try to close some loopholes that Bush exploited pretty ruthlessly.
It also puts in place the idea that nothing done outside of FISA would be legal.
I think these may be the improvements that some Dems are referring to when they defend the fact that they’re voting for it. If I understand this, Congress is beginning to reassert constitutional powers that the Republicans had ripped out and handed over to Bush. Yes, it’s a clumsy one step forward, one step back, but at least the dance is underway.
The retroactive immunity part of the bill is freaking awful. That’s the part Obama says he’ll “work to remove”.
Please, if any of you who have read the bill find that I’m misunderstanding/misinterpreting it, point it out. I’m no lawyer.
Anyway, while House Democratic leadership should be ashamed, I just don’t think we should jump to toss Obama onto the flames. I’d like to at least elect him first =P
If immunity is stripped from the bill, Bush vows to veto it. That veto would give Obama some decent ammunition.
I think Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I think the House Democrats put him there. Giving McCain six months of fuel for “Obama is weeak on national security” won’t help us.
Start putting pressure on Senators, now, to kill the immunity provision.
And try to slow down the reactions over this. November is too important for any of us to get overly reactive, even though I fully acknowledge it isn’t easy to stay serene when faced with a bill like this one.
59.
JC
Phoenix Woman,
Oh thank God. I REALLY hope that is right. He definitely knows the law, so – maybe this isn’t the catastrophe I thought?
About the only new tidbit is that John Dean, who you may remember as having been Nixon’s White House counsel and the one whose refusal to keep covering for Nixon led to the Watergate hearings, was on Countdown with Keith Olbermann tonight and he wasn’t freaking out over this at all. Rather the opposite, in fact, much to KO’s and my surprise.
See, Dean, being a lawyer of some skill and all has read the bill and believes that, while it does provide for civil immunity, it does NOT provide for criminal immunity.
English translation: You can’t sue telcos for wiretapping, but the Justice Department will be able to prosecute them.
Now, if it’s McCain’s DoJ, that’s a moot point. But if it’s not McCain’s DoJ, then things get interesting.
IANAL, but I know lots of BJ readers are. I’d like to hear what they think on this?
61.
Medicine Man
I’m not in the mood to read 500+ comments so I’d appreciate the Paul Harvey “the rest of the story” quick summary and cut to the punchline, if anyone here would be so kind as to provide it, in like 500 words or less.
Internet people bored waiting for general election.
62.
Just Some Fuckhead
OK, now seriously. Was anything of consequence said of the other threads (250+ comments per, and counting) about Obama, Telecomms and all? Or was it all sound and fury signifying nothing? I’m not in the mood to read 500+ comments so I’d appreciate the Paul Harvey “the rest of the story” quick summary and cut to the punchline, if anyone here would be so kind as to provide it, in like 500 words or less.
I’m here for ya, man:
Obama was blamed for the house vote today because he failed to possess Pelosi’s soul and compel her to beat Hoyer to death with a gavel. This shows he is not in fact a magical negro with supernatural powers and as such will not be able to fly the constitution to the Fortress of Solitude for safe keeping deep within Republican-proof ice.
The odd part is that all of our old Clintard friends showed up outta nowhere to throw the bullshit flag and demand a fair and responsible accounting of the situation. Hehe. Just kidding about that last part.
63.
JC
Cynically of course, there is always the possibility that Obama doesn’t mind this bill granting more power to the executive is, well, he plans on being that executive:
The answer is simple:
Barrack Obama plans to be the next President of the United States. Once he becomes President, he will be in the same position as George W. Bush: he wants all the power he needs to protect the country. Moreover, he will be the beneficiary of a Democratic-controlled Congress, and he wants to get some important legislation passed in his first two years in office.
Given these facts, why in the world would Obama oppose the current FISA compromise bill? If it’s done on Bush’s watch, he doesn’t have to worry about wasting political capital on it in the next year. Perhaps it gives a bit too much power to the executive. But he plans to be the executive, and he can institute internal checks within the Executive Branch that can keep it from violating civil liberties as he understands them. And not to put too fine a point on it, once he becomes president, he will likely see civil liberties issues from a different perspective anyway.
So, in short, from Obama’s perspective, what’s not to like?
64.
Church Lady
John – JSF says you run a B-grade blog. Shouldn’t you punish him for that? Banning for a month or so seems appropriate. :)
TZ – You are a true curmudgeon, but you certainly do make me laugh, even when your snark is directed at me. Flame on.
“I am going to do everything I can to ensure victory for Senator Obama,” Hillary told her fundraisers on the call. “I am asking each of you to do the same. I really believe we’ve got to see a Democrat sworn into the White House this January.”
The call, which I was able to listen to in its entirety, left little doubt that Hillary was unequivocally signaling to her top financial supporters — who are being actively courted by Obama — that the time had come for them to do their part in getting him elected President.
Hillary added that “the stakes are too high” to do anything but “do all we can to elect Barack Obama President,” in order to “turn the economy around” and “protect a woman’s right too choose.”
On the topic of her debts, Hillary said: “Many of you also know that my campaign is facing debt. That happens when you’re outspent…I have also loaned money to the campaign which I consider an investment…I’m not expecting anybody to help pay that back.”
“But I am hoping to get your help in our efforts to pay off our vendors,” she continued, adding that “any amount you can give or help raise would go a long way” towards doing that.
66.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
PW, MM and JSF,
Thanks guys and gal for the quick summary – that was great. You gave me back about 3 hours of my life I would have spent wading thru hundreds of comments, which can be put to better use working on LeftTurn + 4.
If you’re ever traveling thru Albuquerque, give me a shout and I’ll take you guys out to Dos Hermanos for some the best and biggest damm breakfast burritos you ever saw in your life.
Cynically of course, there is always the possibility that Obama doesn’t mind this bill granting more power to the executive is, well, he plans on being that executive:
Who knows what evil lurks in the Pants of Republicans?
Obama knows.
69.
demimondian
CarolinCA…gosh, that just doesn’t sound so bad, you know. There are reputed to be some issues with FISA in regard to certain kinds of modern communications media, and so if those need to be cleaned up…I can deal with that. OTOH, if the FISC is marked as the only way things go around, then that’s even better.
I am unalterably opposed to the wireless wiretapping cave, and that really does need to be stopped. That said, you know what — that’s exactly what amendments are for, and that’s exactly the kind of thing which the Senate can, and will, debate. Interminably. And which I wouldn’t want to try to invoke cloture to get around; I wouldn’t be surprised if the left could get the fifty votes to push the amendment through, to say nothing of getting the forty votes to block a vote on a version of the bill with the immunity provision intact.
I think Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I think the House Democrats put him there. Giving McCain six months of fuel for “Obama is weeak on national security” won’t help us.
Winner.
Again, I am the retard who voted for Bush twice. Why was I able to figure this out and others were not?
71.
DougJ
Not sure how closely you’ve all been following Brodergate but things are looking bad for the Dean (from the WaPo ombudsman):
Broder said he adheres to “the newspaper’s strict rules on outside activities” and “additional constraints of my own. I have never spoken to partisan gatherings in any role other than a journalist nor to an advocacy group that lobbies Congress or the federal government. Virtually all of the speeches I have made have been to college or civic audiences.”
The NAM, the ACCF and the national parents of the Minnesota group and Northern Virginia Realtors do lobby Congress. Broder later said he broke the rules on those speeches. He also said he had cleared his speeches with Milton Coleman, deputy managing editor, or Tom Wilkinson, an assistant managing editor, but neither remembered him mentioning them. Wilkinson said Broder had cleared speeches in the past. Editors should have been consulted on all of the speeches as well as the cruise.
72.
JC
Again, I am the retard who voted for Bush twice. Why was I able to figure this out and others were not?
Let’s say we give you this. And I also give you, that Obama is a pol, so not to expect the Magical Unity Pony.
I still don’t get why Pelosi signed off on this. The Time article reads false, the spin of Pelosi, not buttressed by the facts.
WHY are they doing this? I have to ask again. Outside of CYA, is there any other reason?
73.
srv
so I’d appreciate the Paul Harvey “the rest of the story”
MUP is powerless, speculatively presumptive nominee and anything other than close to towing the line would split the party, and throw the superdelegates to Hitlery. He must wade through the DNC as though it is a giant minefield, and anyone who thinks he should have done more wants him to self-immolate (John’s words), throw the election, and just doesn’t understand that it is always most pragmatic to surrender to GW at every opportunity.
Come January, Super Magical 4th Ammendment Unicorn may appear and save everything. Not that there’s any evidence to really think that.
In summary, anyone else who gives a crap about the Constitution feels like this video sums up MUP so far.
WHY are they doing this? I have to ask again. Outside of CYA, is there any other reason?
We’ll never know, but the part of the Time article that makes the most sense is to protect Dems in red districts. That’d be my guess.
75.
srv
I still don’t get why Pelosi signed off on this. The Time article reads false, the spin of Pelosi, not buttressed by the facts.
It is already well established that Harry and Nancy were read into these programs. They, Jay and a couple of others were complicit in all of this.
76.
Just Some Fuckhead
If you’re ever traveling thru Albuquerque, give me a shout and I’ll take you guys out to Dos Hermanos for some the best and biggest damm breakfast burritos you ever saw in your life.
Erm. Phoenix Woman, Medicine Man and I usually don’t travel together as a group but I’d be willing to make an exception for giant breakfast burritos. How ’bout it folks? I’m charming company if you like sports statistics, music trivia and teen porn.
77.
JC
So basically, CYA.
Yay – go team.
78.
TenguPhule
anything other than close to towing the line would split the party, and throw the superdelegates to Hitlery.
This is important. Those fucking traitors in the House are all Super Delegates.
When I was little, when i didn’t get my way, I punished the world by holding my breath so everyone would notice my outrage. They didn’t and all I accomplished was giving myself a good case of the Whirllys.
If you were really committed to the cause, you’d have held your breath until you died. That would have shown mom and dad…
All these folks threatening to vote McCain are just making up for a lifetime of giving in too early, hoping now they can finally get it right.
Keep trying guys! And if McCain lets you down, try holding your breath again. Plastic bags and duct tape can make you a winner!
Is there are single MUPper here whose arguments aren’t completely made of straw?
Is there a single concern troll/Hillary supporter/spoof who’s not a tool?
85.
Conservatively Liberal
Fixt, for awareness of all Balloon-Juice Goat Blowing traditions.
Ah yes, the good ol’ BJ Hot Goat Sex Brigade. They sure came rolling in tonight! Must have been a slow night at Riverdaughters, His44 and NQ, so they got bored and came over looking for some fresh ‘meat’.
Is there a single concern troll/Hillary supporter/spoof who’s not a tool?
And the line that the opposition to this is all from people saying, “I’m voting McCain and/or/was a Hillary supporter” is utterly laughable.
I supported Edwards, and then Obama. I am hardly a Democrat and feel absolutely no obligation to auto-vote D.
Hell, my myspace page still has the Obama 08 image on it.
88.
Just Some Fuckhead
However, his word is hardly gospel.
Next to yer ridculous musings about how Obama and Bush might be the same because they both used the word “change”, Dean is Jesus and Moses all wrapped up in a fiery chariot with Elijah.
89.
drag0n
Once Again!
You are so FUCKING RIGHT John Cole…
The Obama bashers are the mirror image of the Keyboard Kommandoes…
And you, John, of all bloggers, are in the best position to see that :-)
90.
Dennis - SGMM
It was 107° today in my corner of Southern California. Why did Obama let it get so hot?
91.
myiq2xu
Glenzilla is a lawyer, he’s read the bill, and he’s been following this issue closely for a long time. Here’s what he had to say:
As I noted yesterday, the GOP couldn’t even wait for the ink to dry on this “compromise” before publicly — and accurately — boasting that they not only got everything they want, but got even more than they dreamed they would get. To The New York Times’ Eric Lichtblau, GOP House Whip Roy Blunt derided the telecom amnesty provision as nothing more than a “formality” which would inevitably lead to the immediate and automatic dismissal of all lawsuits against the telecoms, while Sen. Kit Bond taunted the Democrats for giving away even more than they had to in order to get a deal: “I think the White House got a better deal than they even had hoped to get.”
Lichtblau himself noted that “the White House immediately endorsed the proposal” and wrote that the bill “represents a major victory for the White House after months of dispute.” Reporters Dan Eggen and Paul Kane were even more blunt and derisive in The Washington Post, noting that the Democrats “hand[ed] President Bush one of the last major legislative victories he is likely to achieve”; that “the deal appears to give Bush and his aides, including Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey and Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, much of what they sought in a new surveillance law”; and that “the negotiations underscored the political calculation made by many Democrats who were fearful that Republicans would cast them as soft on terrorism during an election year.”
Surrendering and fearful: that’s the face of the Democratic Party. It’s how they show they’re not weak. The most succinct summary of what the Democrats just “negotiated” came from Russ Feingold: “The proposed FISA deal is not a compromise; it is a capitulation.”(emphasis added)
George Bush got everything he wanted in this bill, which should tell you everything you need to know.
92.
drag0n
myiq2xu:
So vote for McCain. We all know you are a GOP troll. Get lost.
93.
drag0n
myiq2xu:
If you are not a GOP troll then you are just a standard, slackass loser troll who trolls just for fun. Either way, I wish blogs had a killfile.
94.
Conservatively Liberal
Hell, my myspace page still has the Obama 08 image on it.
Wow, I am totally underwhelmed. You are so totally for Obama that I just don’t know what to say so I will leave it at that.
Hey myiq2xu GoatBoy, how goes the fight for Hillary against Obama? Of everyone here, your posts are still the best to print out and wipe with. Hands down, no doubt about it. Absolutely the best wiping paper evah.
I see you are still out goat hunting, and since you are back here I would guess that the pickins is slim out there? That’s what you get when you run with a bunch of goatfuckers like yourself.
Go back to Corrente GoatBoy, the rest of the ‘boldly shrill’ goatfuckers there miss you.
95.
myiq2xu
We all know you are a GOP troll.
Your candidate turns out to be a fake and a phony, and you get mad a me for pointing out that the clothes have no emperor.
The truth hurts I guess.
96.
TenguPhule
Your candidate turns out to be a fake and a phony
There is no need to get personal. Hillary has enough problems as it is.
97.
drag0n
myiq2xu Says:
Your candidate
Yeah, the dem candidate?
Who is your candidate?
98.
drag0n
Face facts myiq2xu you are a Troll. Proud of yourself?
99.
Xenos
George Bush got everything he wanted in this bill, which should tell you everything you need to know.
George Bush says that he got everything he wanted in this bill, which tells you nothing, because it is well established that the man is an utter fuckin’ liar.
He may get his buddies, and himself, out of legal trouble, and those may have been his two largest priorities, but his policy goal of widely expanded executive power is completely lost.
I am convinced that there is so much kept secret from the public, and even from Congress, that it is impossible to craft effective legislation. Pelosi may have pulled it off here, so I will wait a while before casting judgment.
Obama is unusual, however. He attracts supporters who not only disagree with his stated positions but assume he does too. They project their own views onto him and figure he is just saying what other, less discerning voters want to hear.
Don’t let what he actually says or does get in the way of believing he is The One.
101.
Xenos
What is the point, Miq?
Clinton would have taken the exact same position as Obama has done here – if not gone more butch about sacrificing liberties for security. If your point is to ridicule the netroots, be more specific – not all of them are Obama fanbois, many were, on this issue, Dodd fanbois who are stuck with Obama by default. They are pissed off that Obama has not stuck his head out on this issue yet – whatever.
Nothing in this kerfuffle vindicates you, so give it up.
102.
nightjar
Don’t let what he actually says or does get in the way of believing he is The One
Myiq2xu. Would you please knock it off with the “The One” crapola. It makes you sound, well, like someone with a low IQ, and I wouldn’t want you to embarrass yourself given your extraordinary handle and all.
103.
Huego
When the “Complete Oxford History of Concern-Trolling” is published, will 6/20/08 be written of as the 9/11/01 of concern trolling?
I am in FUCKING TAHITI paying $5 per hour for the privilege and I spent literally hours on the interwebs today agog at the unprecedented (at least for me) spectacle.
It’s like that scene in “The 300” when they’re all going off the side of the cliff, except this time they’re all clutching pearls instead of swords and there’s a giant fainting couch at the bottom.
104.
jenniebee
If you’re interested in sending the Repubs a body-blow, you might consider doing what you can for Anita Hartke, the Dem candidate for Eric Cantor’s seat. Cantor, for those not in the know, is the House Minority Whip and a true piece of work. Since VA is apparently in-play this cycle, it might be worth it to make every one of the R candidates here sweat it a little.
105.
Wilfred
and that “the negotiations underscored the political calculation made by many Democrats who were fearful that Republicans would cast them as soft on terrorism during an election year.”
And it would work. It took less than a week for Dunkin Donuts to pull the Rachel Ray kaffiyeh ad, after pressure from a few bloggers. Homelanders have been conditioned well these past 7 years to Bushco’s Manichean world view and corresponding politics. FISA was political kryptonite for Democrats and the only way to change the circumstances would be to strip these tremulous Cheetistas of the right to vote.
106.
AkaDad
Does this mean the Obama = Messiah meme is now officially dead?
107.
Dennis - SGMM
Does this mean the Obama = Messiah meme is now officially dead?
Not for those who oppose him. A meme is a terrible thing to waste.
108.
GoMS
I got fed up reading through all the foolishness about Obama, so I skipped over the last 20 comments to write:
China is a fucking evil, fucked-up mother-fucker!
“…don’t politicize the Olympics, unless you are some communist, fucking dickwad with 1.4 billion brain-washed morons afraid to be tortured at your leisure!”
109.
D-Chance.
I look forward to the next four years. Watching Obama this past couple of weeks, he’s truly going to out-Clinton Clinton. From pandering to AIPAC, breaking campaign financing promises, taking a pass on FISA, remaking the presidential seal in his own image, and just proving in general what skeptics have known all along… the eye-opening among the idealists have been hilarious. If the preceding couple of threads on FISA are any indication, we’d better get out the tarps and other assorted plastic sheeting. The Gallagher-level spray from all the exploding heads will get hilariously messy around here.
From pandering to AIPAC, breaking campaign financing promises, taking a pass on FISA, remaking the presidential seal in his own image
You are a Republican, aren’t you? Everyone panders at AIPAC, he hasn’t taken a pass at FISA, there is nothing he can do, he hasn’t broken any campaign financing promises, and from what I can tell the seal was a one-off for that conference.
While I would like to see the FISA immunity go down, for those people out here in the blogosphere, I’d just like to reassure you that the intelligence communities have been spying on you and yours for decades. So this isn’t a huge change in the status quo.
Why are people quoting me and then talking about this mugatu guy?
myiq2xu is not me. Honestly, are you people that fucking retarded to think that someone would cultivate a spoof persona for 4 years just to get you all in some 2008 spoof?
If so, no wonder you support the FISA bill. You’re all a bunch of suspicious, delusional wackos.
Again, I am the retard who voted for Bush twice. Why was I able to figure this out and others were not?
Because you came pre-disillusioned?
I am not especially upset at Obama, because I’ve been through a few elections and our candidates always soljah us in the general. I’d still really like to know what happened in congress – because this never would have come up for a vote if the leadership didn’t want it. I bet someone writes a really interesting book about it in a few years.
Comments are closed.
Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!
Cassidy
You can have it. Free of charge.
Ted
Heh. Indeed. Read the whole thing. Ouch! We’re winning.
handy
ZOMG Magical Unity Pony is just a POLITICIAN!!!!! Say ain’t so, Bo!
Emma Anne
Feature request: I would like a button at the bottom of the page after all the comments that takes me to the home page or (even better!) to the next post or last post. Otherwise I have to scroll and click more than one button and that’s too much work.
Cris
For some reason, ever since Jesse Taylor came back to Pandagon, I’ve almost completely stopped reading it. Strangely enough, I think it’s because he posts too often. I like his style and his analysis, but I just can’t keep up.
w vincentz
I’ll just quote Jackie Gleason.
“Humin’ a humin” ah!”
“To the moon Alice (Barack). TO THE MOON!”
ThymeZone
Paper, or plastic?
I can never decide.
The Disenfranchised Voter
I swear to all that the Obama camp finds holy, if Obama does not change his stance on such an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of civil liberties that was the warrantless wiretapping I will hereby not vote for him and you can damn well better believe I will make sure those around me don’t either.
handy
Ahhh, a McCain voter, I see.
Pb
The Disenfranchised Voter,
What, are you for telecom immunity or something?
Cassidy
Well what did you expect after he got kicked off the Ultimate Fighter?
vwcat
I just read in TIME about why the democrats went along with the bill.
Pelosi is pushing for some things that she got and it was also to protect those in the fall in red districts.
But, the biggest reasons are that they wanted this off the table during the election season and Pelosi wanted to move this so Obama could appear more centrist to those worried he is too far to the left.
I thought that was why Obama is going along with it. it’s political for the election and Pelosi got some compromises she wanted.
Not saying I agree or am happy but, I felt this is pure positioning and had to do with the election and i realize that politics have to be played right now.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1816911,00.html
ThymeZone
Wow, you are a very powerful person. I myself control only one vote.
So who will your posse vote for? Have you considered Lou Ferrigno?
Cassidy
Doesn’t count if it isn’t written in blood you pussy.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Pb,
He is voting for the immunity bill.
The Moar You Know
A foolproof way to throw elections? Tell me moar!
demimondian
How evil is the America? Balloon-juice is bigger than God in America…see?
ThymeZone
Nothing is bigger than Dog In America.
The Disenfranchised Voter
sighhhhh…
Yes let’s vote D no matter what. That’s a good idea!
Fuck that!
And you damn well better believe I’d never vote for John McCain:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/20/obama-backs-bill-giving-i_n_108370.html
w vincentz
Stance?
I need a consult with the master of the stance, wide is good.
Ring, ring,
Larry Craig: Hello?
Caller: Hey, I need advice on “stance”.
LC: Huh?
Caller: Is wide better? With or without foot tapping?
LC: What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
Caller: I’ve taken some heat about my stance and need some advice.
LC: So have I. So, what do you need to know?
Caller: I want to know about the best stance, and not that kind in a men’s bathroom in an airport restroom.
LC: What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
Caller: Stance….the best one.
LC:Are you a Catholic altar-boy or something?
Caller: No, I just want to know the best stance, so my butt is covered and not invaded.
LC: Huh? Iraq was invaded and the US took it in the butt.
Caller: Huh? Stance. No, I’m not a Catholic altar-boy. I’m a presidential candidate.
LC: Huh? I’ll just advise you. If you have a wide one, don’t tap your foot.
Caller: Huh? What the fuck are you talkin’ about?
click.
Just Some Fuckhead
Dawg, your comments are practically begging for more exclamation points and capitalized words. Right now, you’re just some random shitforbrains doing lackluster spoof in an open thread on a b-list blog. But add some more exclamation points and words in allcaps and suddenly you’re transformed into a magical outrage troll capable of monopolizing an entire thread and jacking the comment count up to 300 comments in no time flat. Something to think about. I just want to see you grow and realize your full potential.
Ted
I like this new concern troll.
D. Mason
shorter larry craig: When you’re on the crapper, don’t be a tapper?
I’m confrused.
nightjar
When I was little, when i didn’t get my way, I punished the world by holding my breath so everyone would notice my outrage. They didn’t and all I accomplished was giving myself a good case of the Whirllys.
t jasper parnell
Pish Tosh. Kathy Griffin.
Did you know that Hulu has Lost in Translation and the Daily Show and Colbert. Can someone explain to me how this can be legal. Hulu = Highly Unlikely Legal Undertaking?
Pb
The Disenfranchised Voter,
If he does vote for an immunity bill, I’ll be pissed at him too. Guess what? He hasn’t, and he likely won’t. Get a clue, man.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Pb, thanks for the eloquent response. And yes, if he votes against, I too will be please.
However, Just some fuckhead (and the name truly fits) you can go pound sand up your mother fucking ass. The mere fact that you think I’m some spoofer shows that youre nothing but a nub here and need to, in the words of clint eastwood, Shut your face.
demimondian
The Disenfranchised Voter…
Obama has said that he will work to get the immunity provisions removed from the bill, but that the majority of the bill is an improvement and is acceptable. I haven’t read it; he has. Depending on what the bill says, that may well be a reasonable conclusion — and, like I said, *I haven’t read it*.
Have you? Pb, have you? Has anyone? I certainly agree that with the immunity language, it is unacceptable; without the immunity language, I don’t know. I’m willing to wait and see. Why don’t you do the same? We’ll get our chance.
— demi “you know it’s bad when *Cole* isn’t flying off the handle” mondian
w vincentz
D Mason,
Very good. Crapper/tapper…it’s all in the stance.
As LBJ used to say, “Don’t pussy-foot”.
Geesh, now it sounds like I’m the one that doesn’t know what the fuck I’m talkin’ about.
Alas, didn’t mean to cause confusion at ya.
I’ll just say that unwide is better. Keeps one out of trouble, doncha know.
The Moar You Know
What Fuckhead said. Here’s how you do it rite:
That’s how you do it rite.
srv
ppGaz, I mean just some f*head, has been afraid of Clint since The Gauntlet went through his hood.
t jasper parnell
I read parts of it and it is long and complicated the 802 Section sucks, I think, not because it attacks or takes away civil liberties but because it forestalls legal remedies against non-state actors and suggests, as I read it, that citizens and corporations ought assume that when the state or a government makes a request the request is legal, despite it clearly — in this case — not being legal.
D. Mason
If I recall, representative Craig’s footing had nothing at all to do with pussy of any sort.
Just Some Fuckhead
Sorry dawg, you’re only as good as your last overwrought internet missive: your BJ pedigree ain’t popping up when I hover over your comments.
srv
Well said, but it would be equivalent to “self-immolation” for MUP to do otherwise.
The Disenfranchised Voter
lol i see srv is still here–unfortunately? (hopefully youve even come around by now)
I was gonna call thyme by his original name of PP but then I chose to ignore his post because as much as he likes to deny it, he is a diehard Dem.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh and pp–you’re no DougJ.
RoonieRoo
John,
I want to thank you for introducing my better half Grumpy Code Monkay to No Quarter. He’s been bored lately with his normal blog reading/board posting. He’s now a trolling No Quarter. I haven’t seen this man having this much fun poking stupid people with a stick in a long time.
That crazy man giggling you hear coming from Texas is GCM every time he posts on No Quarter. In fact he’s beyond proud that they are starting to delete his posts. You’ve created a monster, John.
t jasper parnell
Tiger Woods’ victory, given the injury and related whatnot, was amazing.
w vincentz
D Mason,
Correct. No pussy involved.
Geesh, I’m setting myself up to being called the “M” word.
Anyway, I have a good recipe if you’re interested.
Tastes like chicken/clams.
demimondian
Hey, Cole…when did you add *that* feature?
ThymeZone
Okay, you guys are going to need to form two lines.
Here, drunk:
Here, sober:
And … what? I am not JSF or anyone else. I do one persona, and this is it. I think I have done about a dozen posts this year under another handle, and pretty everybody who wasn’t drunk knew it was me the first day.
And … what? DougJ? DougJ is a persona, like me, whose creator also does spoof. I basically don’t do spoof. Too much work, not enough pay. Keeping the handles straight, pain in the ass.
t jasper parnell
last comment for a while, I hate baseball but not America.
srv
Y’all gave up too quick on the other thread, John O is trying to surrender.
gbear
I’m still voting for Obama. You’d be really fucking stupid not to vote for Obama. You’re insane if you won’t vote for the guy because he’s not giving you everything you want.
Bottom line. Supreme Court. Obama = good. McCain = absolutely fucking awful.
Rick Taylor
John, since when did you become so prophetic? You write:
Then within an hour, a butch of left wingers are kvetching and moaning as they learn Obama is not as liberal as they thought (or more accurately, is a politician who’s motivated as much by pragmatism as ideological purity). That is impressive. Did being a conservative for so long give you insight into left wing foibles?
The Disenfranchised Voter
Everything I want? No fuck that, that is not what this is about.
This is about a man who has talked of change, who has led us to believe he would stand up for what is right.
This is not about a single issue. This is about whether Obama is who he actually says he is and whether he actually believes in what he spews.
Let’s take a a little trip back to 2000. I remember a candidate who said he wasn’t tainted by Washington. That he wanted to bring “change”. He sure as hell wasn’t a nation builder. And he swore that he was a different type of Republican.
Just like Obama says hes a different type of Democrat.
How the hell should I be so sure that this isn’t some sort of angle. I tend to think that actions speak louder than words. Obama may talk a tough game but if he goes and votes to immunize such an outrageous and illegal program then he is nothing but all talk in my opinion.
Do I still hope he beats John McCain?–You’re damn right I do. But I could not, and would not, in good conscience vote for him.
Hopefully–if he stupidly does vote for the immunity–he will be elected and prove me wrong.
Though I prefer for him to be the change candidate he claims to be and I can confidently vote for him.
Just Some Fuckhead
I tell you with certainty, before a rooster crows this very night, you will deny me three times.
ThymeZone
How did you know I have a rooster?
Phoenix Woman
Did anyone watch Countdown tonight?
John Dean was on, and he wasn’t freaking out over this at all. Rather the opposite, in fact — much to KO’s surprise.
The reason is that Dean’s read the bill and believes that, while it does provide for civil immunity, it does NOT provide for criminal immunity.
English translation: You can’t sue telcos for wiretapping, but the Justice Department will be able to prosecute them.
Now, if it’s McCain’s DoJ, that’s a moot point. But if it’s not McCain’s DoJ, then things get interesting.
The Disenfranchised Voter
All Hail Olbermann!
……………..
……………..
……………..
right………….
Ninerdave
Well it was pretty obvious that once Obama did something the left didn’t like the blogosphere was going to blow up. The left has just as many purists as the right. You can’t be all things to all people.
..and no I don’t agree with this abortion of a law, but I’m confused. As a Senator what exactly is Obama supposed to be doing? This is a House bill and strictly in Pelosi and Hoyer’s court.
Incertus
Fuck all this serious talk. I declare a bad video war, and I’m leading off with some Klingons singing a fucked up version of Bohemian Rhapsody.
Brian +4
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Fixt, for awareness of all Balloon-Juice Goat Blowing traditions.
OK, now seriously. Was anything of consequence said of the other threads (250+ comments per, and counting) about Obama, Telecomms and all? Or was it all sound and fury signifying nothing? I’m not in the mood to read 500+ comments so I’d appreciate the Paul Harvey “the rest of the story” quick summary and cut to the punchline, if anyone here would be so kind as to provide it, in like 500 words or less.
Phoenix Woman
Well, TDV, John Dean, not KO, is the one saying that. And Dean is a lawyer of some renown. Go Google “john dean watergate” and see for yourself.
Ninerdave
Why? It’s easier to post in the comments section on BJ screaming about how you’re a Dem and not going to vote for Obama.
JC
vwcat,
Thanks for the pointer and the link. I’ve been sitting here, simply wondering, what the hell was the reason that Pelosi did this. Even if you accept the fait accompli that TZ and Cole keep saying “it’s a done deal”, “he isn’t superman”, “he was against it”, etc – which in the case of he’s against it, is only partially true, and it seems he will vote for this bill – at least the rationale for the dems doing this is laid out.
Now let’s look at the rationale:
Did this hurt them so far this year? did this hurt the Democrats in February? Didn’t we just have a couple of Democrats elected, BECAUSE they stood strong on this issue?
So that reason is doubtful.
Hmm, from what I’ve read of the bill, it doesn’t seem the judge GETS to judge – but I would be happy to be wrong – all the judge GETS to do is to receive the acknowledge of an official notification from DNI or the AG to the telecoms. But doesn’t have the ability to order discovery. Which means, this rationale is just a snow job.
Correct me if I’m wrong on this, but isn’t this how the bill reads?
Well, not if this is a misstatement of what the bill does, which I think it is – I would be happy to be proved wrong.
That’s just B.S political speak. What prevents the IG from certifying to Congress, all the while, having a camera in every Congressmen’s bedroom?
This has been hit on before, in an exchange with Greenwald and Joe Klein. Greenwald has pointed out, a few different times, as have others, that the capacity ALREADY exists in the FISA law to made modifications to existing technology – in fact, this has been done at least four times, since the law was passed.
So again, this assertion doesn’t seem true.
So all we are left with, is the political judgment – which doesn’t seem backed up by the polls, and the reality of elections the last two years.
Truly – I don’t believe that these people are idiots. They know all the points I make above.
So – what is the real reason??????
CarolinCA
Demimondian –
I read the thing, and then asked a friend who’s an attorney to translate some of it for me to be sure I was understanding it.
The new bill updates the 1970s FISA law with new technologies in mind. In doing so, it seems to try to close some loopholes that Bush exploited pretty ruthlessly.
It also puts in place the idea that nothing done outside of FISA would be legal.
I think these may be the improvements that some Dems are referring to when they defend the fact that they’re voting for it. If I understand this, Congress is beginning to reassert constitutional powers that the Republicans had ripped out and handed over to Bush. Yes, it’s a clumsy one step forward, one step back, but at least the dance is underway.
The retroactive immunity part of the bill is freaking awful. That’s the part Obama says he’ll “work to remove”.
Please, if any of you who have read the bill find that I’m misunderstanding/misinterpreting it, point it out. I’m no lawyer.
Anyway, while House Democratic leadership should be ashamed, I just don’t think we should jump to toss Obama onto the flames. I’d like to at least elect him first =P
If immunity is stripped from the bill, Bush vows to veto it. That veto would give Obama some decent ammunition.
I think Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I think the House Democrats put him there. Giving McCain six months of fuel for “Obama is weeak on national security” won’t help us.
Start putting pressure on Senators, now, to kill the immunity provision.
And try to slow down the reactions over this. November is too important for any of us to get overly reactive, even though I fully acknowledge it isn’t easy to stay serene when faced with a bill like this one.
JC
Phoenix Woman,
Oh thank God. I REALLY hope that is right. He definitely knows the law, so – maybe this isn’t the catastrophe I thought?
Phoenix Woman
ThatLeftTurninABQ: Lots and lots of SAFSN. But the best summation is here:
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=10669#comment-737985
About the only new tidbit is that John Dean, who you may remember as having been Nixon’s White House counsel and the one whose refusal to keep covering for Nixon led to the Watergate hearings, was on Countdown with Keith Olbermann tonight and he wasn’t freaking out over this at all. Rather the opposite, in fact, much to KO’s and my surprise.
See, Dean, being a lawyer of some skill and all has read the bill and believes that, while it does provide for civil immunity, it does NOT provide for criminal immunity.
English translation: You can’t sue telcos for wiretapping, but the Justice Department will be able to prosecute them.
Now, if it’s McCain’s DoJ, that’s a moot point. But if it’s not McCain’s DoJ, then things get interesting.
IANAL, but I know lots of BJ readers are. I’d like to hear what they think on this?
Medicine Man
Internet people bored waiting for general election.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m here for ya, man:
Obama was blamed for the house vote today because he failed to possess Pelosi’s soul and compel her to beat Hoyer to death with a gavel. This shows he is not in fact a magical negro with supernatural powers and as such will not be able to fly the constitution to the Fortress of Solitude for safe keeping deep within Republican-proof ice.
The odd part is that all of our old Clintard friends showed up outta nowhere to throw the bullshit flag and demand a fair and responsible accounting of the situation. Hehe. Just kidding about that last part.
JC
Cynically of course, there is always the possibility that Obama doesn’t mind this bill granting more power to the executive is, well, he plans on being that executive:
Church Lady
John – JSF says you run a B-grade blog. Shouldn’t you punish him for that? Banning for a month or so seems appropriate. :)
TZ – You are a true curmudgeon, but you certainly do make me laugh, even when your snark is directed at me. Flame on.
empty
From TPM Election Central:
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
PW, MM and JSF,
Thanks guys and gal for the quick summary – that was great. You gave me back about 3 hours of my life I would have spent wading thru hundreds of comments, which can be put to better use working on LeftTurn + 4.
If you’re ever traveling thru Albuquerque, give me a shout and I’ll take you guys out to Dos Hermanos for some the best and biggest damm breakfast burritos you ever saw in your life.
empty
Well you’re always getting your dander up
TenguPhule
Who knows what evil lurks in the Pants of Republicans?
Obama knows.
demimondian
CarolinCA…gosh, that just doesn’t sound so bad, you know. There are reputed to be some issues with FISA in regard to certain kinds of modern communications media, and so if those need to be cleaned up…I can deal with that. OTOH, if the FISC is marked as the only way things go around, then that’s even better.
I am unalterably opposed to the wireless wiretapping cave, and that really does need to be stopped. That said, you know what — that’s exactly what amendments are for, and that’s exactly the kind of thing which the Senate can, and will, debate. Interminably. And which I wouldn’t want to try to invoke cloture to get around; I wouldn’t be surprised if the left could get the fifty votes to push the amendment through, to say nothing of getting the forty votes to block a vote on a version of the bill with the immunity provision intact.
John Cole
Winner.
Again, I am the retard who voted for Bush twice. Why was I able to figure this out and others were not?
DougJ
Not sure how closely you’ve all been following Brodergate but things are looking bad for the Dean (from the WaPo ombudsman):
JC
Let’s say we give you this. And I also give you, that Obama is a pol, so not to expect the Magical Unity Pony.
I still don’t get why Pelosi signed off on this. The Time article reads false, the spin of Pelosi, not buttressed by the facts.
WHY are they doing this? I have to ask again. Outside of CYA, is there any other reason?
srv
MUP is powerless, speculatively presumptive nominee and anything other than close to towing the line would split the party, and throw the superdelegates to Hitlery. He must wade through the DNC as though it is a giant minefield, and anyone who thinks he should have done more wants him to self-immolate (John’s words), throw the election, and just doesn’t understand that it is always most pragmatic to surrender to GW at every opportunity.
Come January, Super Magical 4th Ammendment Unicorn may appear and save everything. Not that there’s any evidence to really think that.
In summary, anyone else who gives a crap about the Constitution feels like this video sums up MUP so far.
No rick roll.
Ninerdave
We’ll never know, but the part of the Time article that makes the most sense is to protect Dems in red districts. That’d be my guess.
srv
It is already well established that Harry and Nancy were read into these programs. They, Jay and a couple of others were complicit in all of this.
Just Some Fuckhead
Erm. Phoenix Woman, Medicine Man and I usually don’t travel together as a group but I’d be willing to make an exception for giant breakfast burritos. How ’bout it folks? I’m charming company if you like sports statistics, music trivia and teen porn.
JC
So basically, CYA.
Yay – go team.
TenguPhule
This is important. Those fucking traitors in the House are all Super Delegates.
ThymeZone
Church Lady …
I am to entertain. Send money.
Martin
If you were really committed to the cause, you’d have held your breath until you died. That would have shown mom and dad…
All these folks threatening to vote McCain are just making up for a lifetime of giving in too early, hoping now they can finally get it right.
Keep trying guys! And if McCain lets you down, try holding your breath again. Plastic bags and duct tape can make you a winner!
empty
From A Tiny Revolution:
srv
Nobody said they were going to vote for McCain, moron.
Is there are single MUPper here whose arguments aren’t completely made of straw?
empty
They are just continuing a proud tradition.
Ninerdave
Is there a single concern troll/Hillary supporter/spoof who’s not a tool?
Conservatively Liberal
Ah yes, the good ol’ BJ Hot Goat Sex Brigade. They sure came rolling in tonight! Must have been a slow night at Riverdaughters, His44 and NQ, so they got bored and came over looking for some fresh ‘meat’.
No.
The Disenfranchised Voter
PhoWo–
Don’t patronize me. I am a regular Olbermann viewer and well know who Dean is. However, his word is hardly gospel.
So how about you go Cheney yourself–Thanks. :)
The Disenfranchised Voter
And the line that the opposition to this is all from people saying, “I’m voting McCain and/or/was a Hillary supporter” is utterly laughable.
I supported Edwards, and then Obama. I am hardly a Democrat and feel absolutely no obligation to auto-vote D.
Hell, my myspace page still has the Obama 08 image on it.
Just Some Fuckhead
Next to yer ridculous musings about how Obama and Bush might be the same because they both used the word “change”, Dean is Jesus and Moses all wrapped up in a fiery chariot with Elijah.
drag0n
Once Again!
You are so FUCKING RIGHT John Cole…
The Obama bashers are the mirror image of the Keyboard Kommandoes…
And you, John, of all bloggers, are in the best position to see that :-)
Dennis - SGMM
It was 107° today in my corner of Southern California. Why did Obama let it get so hot?
myiq2xu
Glenzilla is a lawyer, he’s read the bill, and he’s been following this issue closely for a long time. Here’s what he had to say:
George Bush got everything he wanted in this bill, which should tell you everything you need to know.
drag0n
myiq2xu:
So vote for McCain. We all know you are a GOP troll. Get lost.
drag0n
myiq2xu:
If you are not a GOP troll then you are just a standard, slackass loser troll who trolls just for fun. Either way, I wish blogs had a killfile.
Conservatively Liberal
Wow, I am totally underwhelmed. You are so totally for Obama that I just don’t know what to say so I will leave it at that.
Hey
myiq2xuGoatBoy, how goes the fightfor Hillaryagainst Obama? Of everyone here, your posts are still the best to print out and wipe with. Hands down, no doubt about it. Absolutely the best wiping paper evah.I see you are still out goat hunting, and since you are back here I would guess that the pickins is slim out there? That’s what you get when you run with a bunch of goatfuckers like yourself.
Go back to Corrente GoatBoy, the rest of the ‘boldly shrill’ goatfuckers there miss you.
myiq2xu
Your candidate turns out to be a fake and a phony, and you get mad a me for pointing out that the clothes have no emperor.
The truth hurts I guess.
TenguPhule
There is no need to get personal. Hillary has enough problems as it is.
drag0n
myiq2xu Says:
Yeah, the dem candidate?
Who is your candidate?
drag0n
Face facts myiq2xu you are a Troll. Proud of yourself?
Xenos
George Bush says that he got everything he wanted in this bill, which tells you nothing, because it is well established that the man is an utter fuckin’ liar.
He may get his buddies, and himself, out of legal trouble, and those may have been his two largest priorities, but his policy goal of widely expanded executive power is completely lost.
I am convinced that there is so much kept secret from the public, and even from Congress, that it is impossible to craft effective legislation. Pelosi may have pulled it off here, so I will wait a while before casting judgment.
myiq2xu
From Virginia Postrel at The Atlantic:
Don’t let what he actually says or does get in the way of believing he is The One.
Xenos
What is the point, Miq?
Clinton would have taken the exact same position as Obama has done here – if not gone more butch about sacrificing liberties for security. If your point is to ridicule the netroots, be more specific – not all of them are Obama fanbois, many were, on this issue, Dodd fanbois who are stuck with Obama by default. They are pissed off that Obama has not stuck his head out on this issue yet – whatever.
Nothing in this kerfuffle vindicates you, so give it up.
nightjar
Myiq2xu. Would you please knock it off with the “The One” crapola. It makes you sound, well, like someone with a low IQ, and I wouldn’t want you to embarrass yourself given your extraordinary handle and all.
Huego
When the “Complete Oxford History of Concern-Trolling” is published, will 6/20/08 be written of as the 9/11/01 of concern trolling?
I am in FUCKING TAHITI paying $5 per hour for the privilege and I spent literally hours on the interwebs today agog at the unprecedented (at least for me) spectacle.
It’s like that scene in “The 300” when they’re all going off the side of the cliff, except this time they’re all clutching pearls instead of swords and there’s a giant fainting couch at the bottom.
jenniebee
If you’re interested in sending the Repubs a body-blow, you might consider doing what you can for Anita Hartke, the Dem candidate for Eric Cantor’s seat. Cantor, for those not in the know, is the House Minority Whip and a true piece of work. Since VA is apparently in-play this cycle, it might be worth it to make every one of the R candidates here sweat it a little.
Wilfred
And it would work. It took less than a week for Dunkin Donuts to pull the Rachel Ray kaffiyeh ad, after pressure from a few bloggers. Homelanders have been conditioned well these past 7 years to Bushco’s Manichean world view and corresponding politics. FISA was political kryptonite for Democrats and the only way to change the circumstances would be to strip these tremulous Cheetistas of the right to vote.
AkaDad
Does this mean the Obama = Messiah meme is now officially dead?
Dennis - SGMM
Not for those who oppose him. A meme is a terrible thing to waste.
GoMS
I got fed up reading through all the foolishness about Obama, so I skipped over the last 20 comments to write:
China is a fucking evil, fucked-up mother-fucker!
“…don’t politicize the Olympics, unless you are some communist, fucking dickwad with 1.4 billion brain-washed morons afraid to be tortured at your leisure!”
D-Chance.
I look forward to the next four years. Watching Obama this past couple of weeks, he’s truly going to out-Clinton Clinton. From pandering to AIPAC, breaking campaign financing promises, taking a pass on FISA, remaking the presidential seal in his own image, and just proving in general what skeptics have known all along… the eye-opening among the idealists have been hilarious. If the preceding couple of threads on FISA are any indication, we’d better get out the tarps and other assorted plastic sheeting. The Gallagher-level spray from all the exploding heads will get hilariously messy around here.
John Cole
You are a Republican, aren’t you? Everyone panders at AIPAC, he hasn’t taken a pass at FISA, there is nothing he can do, he hasn’t broken any campaign financing promises, and from what I can tell the seal was a one-off for that conference.
Bob In Pacifica
While I would like to see the FISA immunity go down, for those people out here in the blogosphere, I’d just like to reassure you that the intelligence communities have been spying on you and yours for decades. So this isn’t a huge change in the status quo.
The Disenfranchised Voter
LOL.
Why are people quoting me and then talking about this mugatu guy?
myiq2xu is not me. Honestly, are you people that fucking retarded to think that someone would cultivate a spoof persona for 4 years just to get you all in some 2008 spoof?
If so, no wonder you support the FISA bill. You’re all a bunch of suspicious, delusional wackos.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Okay, well thankfully I just read this story.
Which should have been yesterday’s headline, but nevertheless, if Obama actually fights for this then he will be back on my good side:
The Disenfranchised Voter
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06/21/politics/horserace/entry4200105.shtml
Emma Anne
Because you came pre-disillusioned?
I am not especially upset at Obama, because I’ve been through a few elections and our candidates always soljah us in the general. I’d still really like to know what happened in congress – because this never would have come up for a vote if the leadership didn’t want it. I bet someone writes a really interesting book about it in a few years.