This will be kind of long, and I hope it doesn’t land doesn’t land with a great big thud, which it might.
So on Friday I put up a post with Amanda Gorman’s guest essay from the New York Times. (cue Baud: the NYT is garbage. though in this one case they are not.)
It was a lovely essay. The comments about Amanda Gorman were overwhelmingly positive and the essay was exceedingly well received. Various people pointed out sentences or phrases from the essay that particularly moved them or struck them as notable. One person was blown away by the last sentence in this part:
On the way to the Capitol building I recited the mantra I say before any performance: I am the daughter of Black writers. We’re descended from freedom fighters who broke their chains and they changed the world. They call me.
I was struck by it, too. So powerful.
Then I started composing, in my mind, a mantra that I imagine plays for some without their realizing it:
I am a mediocre white man, more deserving than everyone else, entitled to everything…
And then my mind jumped to the first guest post I put up from The Thin Black Duke. It was about Ahmaud Arbery, and one of the very first comments asked why Balloon Juice wasn’t reporting on something the Proud Boys had done. For the next hour or more, 1/3 of the comments were related to that. (Side note: I am not bringing this up to call out that commenter in any way; instead I’m attempting to make a larger point.)
At #70, Woodrow commented:
And yet, a Black man is trying to speak. Was given the floor, here. We’re not seen in a lot of these debates and discussions to begin with…
…
That’s the kind of crap that made Dr. King, over half a century ago, yell about “white moderates” — and more than once. When the debate/discussion becomes about nothing but White reactions to White Supremacists, which is exactly what the Rittenhouse discussion has become in many spaces, it risks pushing out what the Black voices (in all our own beautiful diversity) are trying to say.It’s an example of centering not the Black experience in this, but the White one that isolates its allyship from the very people they claim to be concerned about.
It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person to do it, but it does mean you’re risking — risking — implying that you know what’s important to pay attention to, over the Black man who made a critical guest post. And at a point where a lot of Black folx are in pain.
There was more to that great comment from Woodrow, but that is the part that feels most relevant here.
If my brain hadn’t jumped to those points that were made 2 months earlier in the Ahmaud Arbery thread, I would have derailed my own thread! Not only would I have derailed my own post, where not a black man, but a young black woman, someone good, someone inspirational, was speaking, but I would have taken the floor away from this brilliant and brave young black woman to make a point we have made here a million times about the privilege of the mediocre white man. (#NotAllWhiteMen)
How often do we do this? Those of us who are white surely do this far more than we know in regard to race. With two new great, but very different, voices on the front page, I hope we can all begin to catch ourselves if, and more likely when, we start to do this.
And just as surely, we do this related to politics.
How often do we shift the conversation from great voices or great accomplishments on our side and turn it into venting and outrage about what the other side is doing? These are tough times; we all need to vent. At least I do.
So I will end with some questions:
When we do that too often or too much, when that’s our go-to instinct even when we’re discussing something good that the administration has done, are we helping the other side?
Are we giving more oxygen to the lies instead of talking about what’s true?
Are we good allies? To one another? Even to ourselves?
We have a big fight ahead of us between now and November, and beyond. We have to bring our best game.
How can we be better, do better?
Open thread.
Professor Bigfoot
Well, this thread will be VERY interesting – or very short.
H.E.Wolf
Thank you for raising these topics for consideration. I’m going to ponder it a while – there’s lots here to mull over and apply to my ownself.
debbie
Instead of saying every thread’s an open thread, clearly state when a thread shouldn’t be thought of as open. ??♀️
H.E.Wolf
Other folks are thinking about this too. Here’s one example (starts in the middle of a thread). An interesting take on the subject.
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1479635679227355136
wmd
It’s difficult to listen.
We all have egos and want to feel we are contributing.
NotMax
As often as front page posts focus on what the other side is doing. Or else on our side governmenting wrong.
Fair Economist
I definitely think we need to give more attention to the good things done by good people. Outrage at outrages has its place, but I think we could give a lot more air to why our side is better.
Nancy
First thought. I showed the Adam Schiff zoom page to someone who commented how white it was.
Next:
There are places where my ideas might be privileged. I don’t need that here. I want to learn. I’m going to think about Watergirl’s statement and the questions.
I don’t always comment but I always read the posts.
UncleEbeneezer
I personally don’t see your comment contrasting Gorman with “mediocre white men” as OT or de-centering Gorman (had you made it). If Gorman was here in the thread, maybe, though I think it’s still a stretch. Part of the importance of her voice is because she doesn’t get the same easy access as MWMen. And I think that is always worth acknowledging and thinking about.
The OT comments on TBD’s posts however, are an issue. And yes, we (white people, especially men) do that sort of thing all the time. It’s a thing I try to be real careful to avoid (especially on posts by women, Black people etc., especially when the subject is something they have a unique and direct perspective on), but I’m sure even I do it more than I should.
susanna
Thich Nhat Hanh passed away yesterday in Vietnam. Remarkable being.
A large presence and promoter of conscious mindfulness and peace around the world. And excuse my lack of rudimentary skills in not putting up reference info.
WaterGirl
@debbie: I forgot to assign a category, and if you do that WordPress is set to add Open Thread.
But I don’t really care if you guys talk about other things in this thread. I was just thinking about all of this and thought I would share, but there’s no way to know whether it’s of interest to anyone else.
WaterGirl
@H.E.Wolf: Wow, they said some of the same things, not with regard to the part about race but definitely with regard to what we talk about politically, but they used about a thousand fewer words!
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: Bingo.
Mousebumples
Reposting from downstairs –
I know we just raised a ton of money for Michigan, but if you have any spare change left, join me in helping to build a strong bench for Democrats (and Democracy) around the country.
I can’t change what certain Senators are doing to tank everything they can, but I do have other resources to use to support our side, in the fight for democracy and our country.
zhena gogolia
@Nancy: What was visible was a subset of the group. It wasn’t entirely white, and a lot of people had their cameras off so I don’t know who all was there.
Leslie
Excellent points. There have been many invitations, especially since the death of George Floyd, for white people to examine their own privilege and become better allies, but imo it’s a never-ending process that we should always be working on.
There was a post on the book of faces recently, screenshots of a Twitter thread (I think). I don’t remember who the author was; if anyone recognizes what I’m talking about and can credit them, that would be great.
The Twitter author (with an image that appeared to represent a white woman) said the she was often asked how to be a better ally, without burdening people of color with requests for education. This, paraphrased to my best recollection, is what she recommended:
1. Go and follow at least 50 people of color on your social media accounts.
2. Read their posts and the responses. Do not comment or respond yourself unless something is addressed to you personally, or there is something clearly asking for feedback from the general public.
3. Keep doing this. Gradually, you will start to understand things that you hadn’t, and things that were opaque will start to become clear, and you will not have required anyone else to spend time educating you.
In my own, less subtle summation, one of the best ways for us to stop centering our own experiences and become better allies to Black folks, indigenous folks, and other people of color is to shut up and listen. And keep listening.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
I haven’t seen much off topic in David Anderson’s thread, I think because an open thread is running concurrently.
ETA Maybe assign a special category to these kinds of posts.
ETAA I’m particularly fond of Tamara’s I Will Cut You tag.
NotMax
@debbie
Non Fungible Thread?
;)
WaterGirl
@debbie: Okay, I made a new category. I didn’t know what to cal it so I called it Something To Think About.
If you have a better idea, I am all ears.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Okey-dokey, then. We temporarily interrupt the circular navel gazing squad.
Truck with 100 monkeys crashes, some of them missing
:)
MisterDancer
That nails a lot of it, yes. “You are being rage farmed” is pretty much the core of social media.
(By the by – this is the Woodrow mentioned above, under new nym)
I kind of get it. Discussing racism is hard enough. Talking about the racism of others, like Proud Boys, is much easier than engaging the feeling of helplessness around the police killing a Black or Brown person…
…or, to tie it all together, the feeling that Congress cannot be fixed by anything you, yourself, can do.
I can only ask, as I did in that comment, that people try to not give in. And it was, indeed, that so many gave in, that so many fed that “let’s rage at the Proud Boys” over supporting Thin Black Duke’s post, that set me off.
Again — I kind of get it. I’m working on a post about my early stumblings in Reproductive Rights and Feminist circles. I want to talk about managing being a Straight, CIs Het kid in those spaces, and the things I had to learn, the humbling I had to take, to actually figure anything out, the little I learned, and am still learning to this day.
For someone like me, avoiding being a Sexist Asshat, while also not being a White (Black?) Knight, is a lifetime of work. And I don’t say that to be down on myself, but to be honest and forthright about the work, and what I need to focus on.
It’s easy for me to avoid being humble about my own failings, and lash out over patriarchal issues. It’s harder for me to root these discussions in trying to help others avoid my failings, and to help everyone rise out of the sexist traps our society has set.
It is like this, too, with Racism. It’s hard, so hard to talk about with open and honest engagement. To say “I’m flawed, and I need a hard to guide me…but I want to head into the light, into wisdom and building a better world, knowing this bears a personal cost.”
But if we, here, can’t do it? How can we then, with a straight face, demand it of anyone else, especially our leaders?
WaterGirl
@NotMax: The term navel gazing is fairly dismissive. I take it you think this isn’t worth thinking about?
WaterGirl
@MisterDancer: I still think of you as Woodrow, and every time you comment my eyes insist on reading your nym as MazeDancer!
HinTN
@Leslie:
Always excellent advice.
Change is hard.
Thanks for taking this on, WaterGirl.
Joy in FL
Usually I read the comments to a post before I comment.
But I want to comment before I know what others say in the comments, so here goes.
I love what you said. Thank you, WaterGirl.
the unconscious centering of one’s own perspective is a part that I am working on seeing in myself and doing better at being deliberately expansive and inclusive, and sometimes simply silent and listening when others know (really know) more. That unconscious centering is normal; how do you not see things from your own viewpoint? One way I expand is to start from my unavoidable centering and deliberately move out from there to be curious about more, and to include more, and then more and then more, like the ripples in a lake.
I’ve been practicing this for a long time, and it feels natural to me. Sometimes I forget about it and I will realize how self-centering my thinking has been about some aspect of race, politics, philosophy, etc., and I re-commit to being more deliberate about practicing expansion and curiosity. I practice holding my thoughts lightly, loosely, reflectively, so that it is normal for my perception and my perspective to expand.
I think I was reading How to Be an Antiracist and I was feeling so hopeless about myself and about everything. And I realized that we are in a transitional time, hopefully a time of moving from systematic racism to a time where a racist culture is anachronistic. And I thought about how transitional periods in history have been chaotic, messy, filled with conflict and uncertainty and blunders. That thought helps me when I feel like I have no idea how to move forward or to contribute in a helpful way. I will continue to do what is before me moment by moment, and I trust that my practice will lead me to continue to grow and add to what is good and helpful.
MisterDancer
@WaterGirl: No worries, it was my idea, after all :)
And I confess I’m just used to thinking of people by multiple names. Belly Dancers oft take a stage name that they go by, in some cases, almost everywhere save non-dancer friends and family. Same with the Renn Faire people and Scadian circles I’ve been in, among other groups I’m more-or-less part of.
Heck, I have a friend who, between circles she’s been in and nick changes, has had something like 10 nyms over her life, actual nicks she responds to in-person.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Nothing is not worth thinking about. Whether meriting fleeting or prolonged thinking is the real question. As you asked, in my interpretation it emits a hefty aroma of woo. YMMV.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: Your idea of woo, and mine, are most definitely different.
Joy in FL
@Mousebumples: Thanks for the comment about Run for Something. I just took a moment out of reading BJ comments and donated : )
Betty Cracker
I think there’s way too much tone policing around here already. If we collectively decide that individuals who are commenting on this blog should evaluate the content of a post, assess their standing to offer an opinion at all and confine their remarks to something that’s uplifting or helpful to the political cause in some way, well, it’s been fun, y’all.
Kineslaw
@Leslie: Twitter is a great medium for exactly this. It’s easy to follow a lot of diverse people, who will lead you to other interesting and diverse people. All you have to do then is read threads, think about what you have read and only comment when asked.
I started doing this a couple of years ago and it is valuable in terms of educating yourself and shifting your perspective.
It’s also really fun. I understand a lot more cultural references than I did before and have increased the things that make me smile and laugh.
Ruckus
Every human being sees life from their own perspective.
Some humans ALSO see life from other’s perspectives.
In the first case it’s because we are sighted outwards and have to actually think about the perspectives of others. And some of the rational behind seeing outwards is survival. Now in the modern world survival is just a bit easier than it was in cave dwelling days, or even than it was 100 yrs ago so we should be able to see outside ourselves easier. And many can and do.
But some don’t like what they see, either outside themselves or often inside themselves. So they really don’t want to look. Also some are selfish to such a degree that they are incapable of seeing outwards.
But our world is getting more crowded and therefore we have to look outside ourselves to have a reasonable survival rate. Something like an infectious new disease happens and we have to not only protect ourselves, we have to insure that we protect others. Some refuse to believe that and believe that the world works only when self is the only number. But in a far more populated world, no one is all to their own, what we do effects far more than it did 100 yrs ago.
But many humans accept change very slowly or not at all. They see themselves as brave, smart, surviving individuals. But in a world like the one we now live in that doesn’t work. We have to recognize that and work together so that life is survivable.
I don’t know if many people can even learn to look past themselves and their selfish lives. But not doing so will hurt many, many others than themselves.
LongHairedWeirdo
Part of this hearkens back to something I’ve been thinking recently… that we need to stop accepting the Republican’s baseline spin on things, and we *must* speak in better language.
When Republicans talk voter fraud, we don’t talk voter fraud, we talk ease of voting, and the shame of some states forcing people to wait for hours, and then, have all kinds of ways to reject their ballots. And the party of “they vote at the same rate as Americans” is trying to make the problem worse!
You can’t beat them on fraud; they make sure there are always enough people scared of fraud that changes will be arguably beneficial. You can beat them by making it about voting rights, and the estimates of people who will be disenfranchised, and the deep shame of states deliberately limiting access to polling places – whether its because they fear Democrats, or minorities, it’s still shamefully corrupt.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: That’s not what I’m suggesting at all.
edit: I was editing this comment to provide much more detail than that, but it all disappeared when I ran out of my 5-minute edit window.
Mousebumples
@Leslie: I endorse this idea. I’m not sure if I have 50 people of color (especially in the realm of politics – since I use Twitter for a mix of politics and sports), but I can offer a few suggestions of people to follow – and I welcome additional suggestions.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl:
We have lots of great front pagers here and “whataboutism” can be toxic and disrespectful and aggravating (that’s what it’s usually for). I often feel guilty about not having anything to say in response to essay-based (for lack of a better word) posts except “thanks”. And I do feel guilty when I post a reply that I know is tangential (or worse) to the main thread on such posts, but I try to do so only after the main conversation has died down and when there’s no obvious subsequent open thread. Sometimes slightly tangential posts keep the conversation going.
I don’t think there’s any way to prevent threads from being derailed, unless we go the route of heavy moderation (and I don’t think anyone here thinks that’s a good idea). Having a new open thread be put up along with essay-based threads might keep them more focused though.
The Garden threads and On the Road and Anderson on Insurance threads are almost always early in the morning (ET) and there’s usually a recent concurrent Open Thread. It works well. Maybe posts from our new FPers, and ruemara, should go up in the morning more often too?
TaMara’s “Muddy this Thread and I will Cut You” tag should be used more often. ;-)
My $0.02. Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Mousebumples
@Joy in FL: I know i don’t have the interest (or time, at this point in my life, lol) to run, but I’m happy to help support those who have the desire to run. Thanks for joining me! ☺️
Nancy
@zhena gogolia: good to know. It might have occurred to me if I hadn’t been so excited about the experience. Also there were lots of zoomers who couldn’t all be captured in one photo.
James E Powell
@WaterGirl:
It’s maybe just me, but when I read the title I heard Bonnie Raitt.
germy
The Recent Comments section is funny:
“Something To Think About?”
“Oh HELL no!”
mrmoshpotato
@NotMax: And there are monkeys all over the highway!
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Everybody feels differently about that.
I am protective of threads I put up where someone else is being featured – artists, authors, a guest post… but not so much about my own.
As I used to say when I managed my IT group, put 10 IT people in a room and you’ll get 11 different opinions. I imagine the same is true of front pagers and how they feel about their threads being open / not open.
WaterGirl
@germy: That is funny!
West of the Rockies
@NotMax:
We’ve had a lot of those lately.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@NotMax: @Betty Cracker: Jesus, thank you both, I thought it was just me
a blog that used to be about politics and (for me), fun, free-wheeling conversations ( as in “Come for the politics, stay for the snark”) now seems to be some 40% about itself, and how we can better manage our conversations
LongHairedWeirdo
There’s some awesome content at Digby’s today that I think is spot on because it agrees with me. (Hey, if you wanna be that way, fine, but I told you up front, didn’t I?)
One hits the same tone as I think any devout Democrat should hit. When Republicans try to claim the CHRISTIAN_HIGH_GROUD, don’t let them. “Jesus told us to love one another – are they saying a Christians love of their neighbor is so weak that a piece of cloth over their face, and having to have smaller worship gatherings for a time, until the virus is no longer such a grave danger – just those tiny things, to save lives, is too much?”
If you let the argument be religious freedom, we lose. If you turn it into questions about love, and what love means in x_context, we win… and, they lose. (There can’t be a “win win” when one side is indifferent to everything, except their political power.)
The other is “The Idiot Ball,” and it raises an important point. Watch Tucker – ginger capsules with ginger tea helps, if you need a stronger antiemetic see your doctor – and practice those facial expressions.
“They think this is Joe Biden’s fault? (expression change) Really? (expression change) Really? (expression change)You didn’t think they were pulling your leg, or something? Because (crushing fact that shows how stupid the idiot ball is).
Tehanu
@Leslie:
That’s a really good idea and I’m going to do that — maybe not 50 right at first, but I’ll give it my best shot, it’s the least I can do.
MisterDancer
Yep!
To everyone: For the record, and this should say something — all my posts, including the MLK Day one, have been tagged Open Thread. That’s a deliberate choice, on my part, and right now looks to be my norm in posting,here.
I’m not here to mind-control y’all in to my positions in things. Nor to demand you focus only on me and my words, when I post. People should go back and look at all the long-assed comments I’ve made that no one ever engaged; I can’t be thin-skinned and keep doing that business!
I am, however, also going to bring some discomfort, and to do so as respectfully as I can. I am going to steal from Dr. King once again, and cause some “constructive, nonviolent tension” in what I say, both in comments and posts. I don’t expect to always be respected, or even acknowledged, yet if I do see something I think is out of bounds? I’m gonna say something, until/unless I chose to step away, or that choice is made for me.
And if I’m wrong? I’ll try to learn.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Why not both?
Barbara
I make this point to my children, that focusing on the appropriate reaction of mostly white people to various things related to race or alleged racism makes the discussion about THEM. It recenters life and discussion around white people and what makes them feel okay about their own experience and reactions vis a vis race. Sometimes the very best thing, maybe the only thing, to do is to listen.
Barney
I think @debbie ‘s suggestion of saying if particular threads should stay on topic, be positive etc. is a good idea, if used wisely.
On the whole, Balloon Juice front-pagers are pretty good at not obsessing about how bad some RW jerk is, unless it really matters.
Someone who gets too much publicity on some other progressive sites is Mike Lindell – he’s unelected, he’s an idiotic conspiracy theorist that a normal person cannot take seriously, he deserves no-one’s time at all. We can ignore him, and it’s better if everyone does.
The equivalents who have somehow got elected are a bit more of a problem – Boebert, Taylor Greene, Cawthorn etc. They do pretty much everything they do for publicity, so ignoring them seems good, but their position means they’ll get quoted elsewhere, so sometimes pointing out what garbage human beings they are is a good idea. But that should be restricted to their malicious acts, rather than their plain stupidity, or trolling. But I think BJ gets it right, on the whole.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Agreed.
Baud
As I read it, OP is bringing up two different themes.
The first is about how commenters should act when the post is about certain topics or people. I don’t have much to say about that.
The second is about the extent to which we, in our day to day political lives, put the right at the center of attention instead of ourselves. I do think we (our side generally) does do that too much (except when we are obsessing over out side’s missteps or a handful of bad faith Dems).
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I am baffled by this comment. 40%? This is one post, what have I missed?
Benw
IMO where I really need to focus on being an ally is in the real world (although the suggestion to follow more black voices online is good – I’m not very much online beyond BJ and a few pop culture sites). I know I always have to check my privilege, listen to voices other than my own, show up to be supportive at events organized by minority activists and communities, and take the steps I can take to make my workspace and community more welcoming and inclusive, even if any individual thing I do feels pretty insignificant.
Geminid
@Mousebumples: I’m impressed by “Black Professor” (@WonderKing82). His day job is counseling some of New York City’s poorest public school students..
Kay
Watergirl, I like you – you are a nice person- but this is absolutely tone policing. Maybe it’s defensible tone policing, with the objective of not “helping the other side”. But that’s what it is.
UncleEbeneezer
@Leslie: This is a good list and my general practice when I follow PoC/Women etc., online. Another good thing about it is that if you hang around for awhile you will learn just how much input the person likes from people of privilege, since some are fine with everyone chiming in and others are not. I have some friends/acquaintences/follows etc., who will say “white people, hang back on this one” or something similar, for certain posts. It’s all about getting to know THEIR boundaries for their spaces.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
The one thing I noticed is that the moderator and questioners were not among the olds.
I assume that was related to WG’s “be nice, no swearing” rule.
raven
@Baud: Rules, in a knife fight?
zhena gogolia
@Kay: Is it tone policing to be annoyed that when an original post (usually by Anne Laurie) is heralding something good that the Democratic administration has done, there is ALWAYS a comment within the first 5 comments that shits on it and says it’s all for naught? If so, then I’m a tone police officer.
It’s different if the original post is “Oh, no, look what Manchin/Sinema did now,” which I tend to skip. I have no interest in policing those threads. But when the original post is positive, I’m sick of it being immediately turned to shit in the comments.
debbie
@Kay:
There’s also being respectful of a post’s subject.
Baud
@raven:
I think WG also prohibited engaging Schiff in a knife fight. Which is, I assume, why Suburu was silent.
WaterGirl
In writing this part about politics, I am not talking specifically about Balloon Juice. I was talking about our side, Democrats, people on the left.
Literally wondering out loud, asking questions, hoping some conversation would clarify things for me.
Instead what it clarified for me is that this isn’t the space to have that conversation. ?♀️
Baud
@NotMax:
Best BJ and the Bear episode ever.
ETA: Having read the story, actually quite a sad situation. :-(
JoyceH
Somewhat open-threadish, but if you’re on Twitter and you don’t follow JortsTheCat you really must. “Jorts (and Jean)” are sweet thoughtful cats and very pro-union.
A Jorts tweet from yesterday: “Jean says she’s willing to explain cryptocurrency but she doesn’t think it would make me feel better about it“
Starboard Tack
As an old white guy who was raised with genteel racism, and no real contact with non white folks, I don’t think much about being a good ally or a bad one or any kind of one. Even thinking about it that way seems a flavor of white man’s burden.
zhena gogolia
@debbie: Especially when the subject is race.
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
I think the negative comments often focus on specific complaints about the policy, while the tone policing comments in response to them focus on things like “negativity” or “helping the other side” – there’s very little substantive defense of the actual thing announced. I wonder about that.
I could see if it was “Joe Biden announces free covid tests” and I, as the negative, said “what bullshit- what they need is another covid stimulus check” and the tone policers defended the policy of free tests, but they mostly don’t. To me that leaves the impression that there isn’t much interest in “discussing” it- there’s interest in whether discussion “helps the other side”, which is to me a different topic.
It’s one step removed. It’s discussing the dicussion :)
West of the Rockies
@zhena gogolia:
I hate when a post dedicated to, say, how good a TV show is (maybe His Dark Materials) goes up, and 20% of the comments are “I hate that show, it’s so boring, stupid, misogynistic, and I never heard of it anyway.”
raven
I think this place takes itself too seriously.
raven
@West of the Rockies: The food is terrible and the portions are so small.
Kay
@debbie:
Well, but that works two ways, right? So if it’s a BC post about how it’s all going to shit then discussing negative tone in the comments isn’t on that topic, is it? “Negativity in the comments” is a topic. It just isn’t a topic on that post.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Actually, Curt and I went through the questions from the 30 people who had submitted them. Turns out we were in total agreement on which questions to go with for the theme of the first night with Adam Schiff.
We chose the most thought provoking questions – ones that were more open ended, more about the book, less about politics and the Jan 5 committee because Schiff was coming as an author not a politician.
We did not choose questions that would put him on the spot, or questions he wouldn’t be able to answer, or questions about why the DOJ hasn’t locked everyone up yet.
We both chose the same questions and then as we made the list of questioners and we realized that they were all women. We shrugged and decided that was okay… the best questions were the best questions. Curt was moderating so male and female voices would be heard.
Also interesting was that I believe all 3 of the selected questions were ones that arrived by email the day of the zoom. Good thing Curt and I hadn’t reviewed the questions ahead of time!
zhena gogolia
@West of the Rockies: I agree. If I dislike something like that (or somebody who’s died), I just tend to skip the thread.
raven
@zhena gogolia: And no thread for Thich Nhat Hanh.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
I’m sure it was all on the up and up. I was just having a little fun.
Redshift
Some good points here, and these are definitely topics that have been on my mind. I’ve been trying to take the advice (more on Twitter, but also here) to listen more and thinking about whether responding is actually useful.
UncleEbeneezer
Former BJ front-pager (briefly) and host of This Week In Blackness podcast used to have a law: You Could Just Say Nothing.
I really can’t overemphasize how many times I’ve seen Black, Women, Transgender etc., people pull their hair out in frustration both online and in meatspace, as people from outside of their community take over and dominate conversations and spaces when we really should just be listening until there’s some sort of signal that they want to hear from everyone. TBD and any other poster can obviously give specific boundaries to their posts and the resulting comments, but there really is no harm in those of us who are White, or Men, or whatever and looking at a post about Race, Gender etc., and erring on the side of hanging back. It’s a good practice in general and people from marginalized groups really do appreciate it and it helps build trust as an ally/accomplice.
Obviously it depends on the person, the space and whatever guidelines they’ve laid out, but keeping this sort of thing in mind and trying to put it into regular practice is a good thing.
WaterGirl
@Kay: You might be right that it’s tone policing if I had said “we should not do this on Balloon Juice”.
I was truly asking. Personally I’m looking to try to do whatever helps our side the most. For instance:
Just in the last week, about 6 different people here have suggested that we (at Balloon Juice) should be organizing some sort of social media effort – either to push back on the lies or to promote the democratic message.
Would that be helpful? Or would that be a total waste of time, because the audience on social media is mostly people who are already clearly in one camp or another?
I really don’t know, but with everything on the line, I was hoping to hear all sides, hoping for clarity.
Redshift
@West of the Rockies: Yeah, I’ll never understand the impulse to join a thread like that to say “I don’t like this and I don’t understand why anyone likes it.” If it’s not your thing, fine, but why do you think the people who do like it need to hear you telling them they’re wrong?
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: Agreed.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep.
My observation is that specific “good” threads have fewer comments. People might post a “thank you” type comment but overall there’s much less back and forth and interaction in the comments. YMMV.
Brachiator
@WaterGirl:
Just in the last week, about 6 different people here have suggested that we (at Balloon Juice) should be organizing some sort of social media effort – either to push back on the lies or to promote the democratic message.
I can see people posting corrective information in social media places where they regularly visit, and to folks they regularly interact with. Anything more, I guess, is up to that individual, their own political interests, etc.
WaterGirl
@Kay: I love all of Betty Cracker’s posts, including and sometimes especially the ones where she talks about things going to shit. Oh HELL no is exactly right on Manchin wanting to drag us through another year of his bullshit.
Redshift
@UncleEbeneezer: One additional reason I think that’s good advice beyond the good points you make — no matter how many infuriating things you think you know that are motivating you to be a good ally, there is always so much more, and you’re not going to learn that unless you spend most of your time listening.
debbie
@Kay:
Agreed.
Madeleine
If a positive post elicits negative response early or later, by one or many, one thing that a commenter can do if s/he doesn’t like it is make a comment that addresses the post in a way that furthers the content of the original post. We are all commenters, all agents.
gwangung
Hm….bear with me for a moment…but there are aspects from the Asian community that might pertain. It is MOST certainly germane to discuss anti-Asian sentiments in the Asian American community. It most rightly should be the center of our discussions. But all too often it slops over into Asian supremacy, that our issues are the most important around and that then grades into anti-Black sentiments, which should NOT be the case.
Instead, I think it helps more to think of solidarity aspects: where do our interests align? Where can we work together? Yes, in cases of police harassment, we need our Black brothers to be in the spotlight, but for policing needs in general, we need to work together.
I think that approach (along with listening and centering marginalized peoples’ needs) has utility for white people….as long as they don’t dominate, and they work in harmony with black and brown voices.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
But that isn’t what political blogs are about. They could be! But I would suggest that very few people will comment if the content consists of “what helps our side the most” – for me, I would first have to decide what “helps our side” in a comment, and since I don’t accept the whole frame of commentors “helping/harming our side”, I won’t.
What you’re talking about is organizing/fund raising, which is a fine but different thing. There isn’t much to talk about there, right? It’s an act.
Redshift
@WaterGirl: For pushing back on the lies, I’d encourage people to get involved in the Indivisible Truth Brigade. They have trainings about pushing back on lies and propaganda, organize topics for people to respond to en masse, etc. (There’s at least one other organization doing a similar thing, but I can’t remember what it is.)
Chris Johnson
@Kineslaw:
Twitter’s also dangerous because if you don’t know the people you’re looking to for your reactions, and just go by tweets and pictures, you can easily find yourself diligently being steered by a troll, which are innumerable.
I just got the hell off Twitter. I would never look to that for self-education. So very dangerous.
MisterDancer
There’s a lot of “don’t change BJ” posting here (or, at least, that’s how I’m reading them)…and as the “vanguard” of some level of change here, I’m trying to listen and think through what’s being said.
It’s no shock I have strong opinions, gang. As such: the idea that there’s too much introspection is deeply discomforting to me. I’ve been a reader of BJ because, on some level, years ago, I did that work. Cole did damn near a 180, politics-wise, due to introspection — and people yelling at him to think about what he was saying, that he could Do Better. (At least, in my opinion).
I don’t have a great bit on this, esp. as I’m about to jump to play D&D. :) Just know I’m reading and thinking on what you’re saying, for future reference.
UncleEbeneezer
@WaterGirl: After watching so many progressive friends contribute to “But Her Emailz” and other bullshit that may have come from Russia/The GOP but was absolutely signal-boosted and given legitimacy by Progressives/Dems, I try to always think “will this (whatever I’m about to type) help or hurt our side?” before hitting enter. In fairly closed spaces I think we we can let shit fly and have complicated conversations etc., but the hard reality is that nowadays online a lot of people can see/read what we say and the amount of people saying a thing can make it go viral/trend and shape a narrative that may be disastrous for the progress we would like to see.
Pod Save America just talked about Biden’s low poll numbers right now and why they are where they are. In addition to things like Covid and Inflation (largely beyond his control) one of the things they agreed was part of the problem was the online Left (Progressives AND Liberals, to be clear) talking way too big about BBB/Voting Rights and setting the bar so far beyond what was actually realistic to achieve that alot of people are now viewing those losses much worse and correspondingly viewing Biden worse because of it. I understand why we wanted to go big on possibility to build excitement/momentum (to hopefully make Sinemanchin budge) but I also always felt this sort of major disappointment was a serious risk of doing so (knowing that the media, GOP, and even alot of the Left will always bash Dems no matter how much Dems accomplish). I think our side does need to be careful with our words and recognize how those words can play at scale if they go viral.
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
Good comment. Endorsed.
Mousebumples
@Geminid: thanks for the rec!
@zhena gogolia: lol, that’s what I’m usually using the pie filter for. It’s not always the same characters, but there are a few posters that have that tendency.
UncleEbeneezer
@Redshift: Yes.
And related, as one of my fave Black podcasters noted “Every thing you (white people) bring to the table, is something we (Black people) have already thought of and discussed numerous times before you even got here.”
It’s always good to remind ourselves that we (people from out-group) probably don’t actually have very much new or original to bring to those discussions.
zhena gogolia
@Kay: Discourse is as important as acts. The parroting of “Hillary’s e-mails” by liberals had a huge effect. I can still remember it.
I can’t discuss politics with my (liberal) friends because they just parrot what they hear on NPR. So Joe Biden is a huge failure, according to them. They are not helping our side by internalizing that stuff.
zhena gogolia
@UncleEbeneezer: What you said.
zhena gogolia
@zhena gogolia: What kills me is they are scholars who work with and fetishize “the primary text” — but when it comes to politics they never actually listen to what Biden or Harris says, they just get it digested for them by NPR or BBC or whatever.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Yeah, that continues to get me. Ask an average liberal/progressive whether the media treats liberals/progressives fairly, and I suspect almost all of them would say no. But then a lot of them turn around and accept media framing about Democratic leaders.
I don’t think you see that sort of disconnect on the right.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: One guy said the other night, “All he had to do was call Mitt Romney! Mitt Romney said he would have voted for it if Biden had just called him!”
YOU HAVE A PH.D. IN HISTORY? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Huh. I’m increasingly finding NPR unlistenable. I yell at them as much as I do conservatives.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
LOL. Yeah, anyone who posted a comment like that here would get crucified.
ETA: and rightly so.
zhena gogolia
@MisterDancer: I really appreciate your pushing us to think more.
Benw
@MisterDancer: I’m interested in your opinion on these things. I generally like the idea that BJ is a “closed space” (h/t UE above) enough that people can just talk about whatever. But my hazy recollection is earlier POC (posters of color) – e.g. ABL – had a rough time sometimes with vhitewashing in the comments, and I felt like you noted it in your comment that WG put in the OP. Have fun D&D!
WaterGirl
@Benw: Can you say more about what you think whitewashing means? Because I suspect i strongly agree with what you are saying, but the word whitewashing is throwing me.
satby
well, I came late to this, but you did this yourself WG, in MisterDancer’s first post, interrupting early on to talk about the upcoming BG post, which turned out to be the usual “xx, what do you think?” lazy ass open thread with a high-faluting name. Later in another post by Mister Dancer, we had continuous fundraising comments by you and others instead of on the post. I was disappointed by that as it detracted from conversation. Since you, WG, decided to make BJ less of a free-wheeling “all threads open” environment, and you have been the main person pushing special guest threads, it’s ironic that you’re now questioning actions you did.
sab
@Kay: I agree. I agree even more having gone back to what I believe is the original post and thread she is referring to (a date would have been helpful) and the thread seemed very much on topic and appreciative of the original post.
Baud
@Benw:
Is that how we’re referring to being an almost top 10,000 blog now?
NotMax
@MisterDancer:
No fumbles today, okay?
;)
West of the Rockies
I believe there is a learning curve for people and groups. For instance, the very first time I encountered the Black Lives Matter phrase, I flinched just a bit and said, “Don’t all lives matter?” Upon hearing the intent, I immediately and resolutely supported the saying and movement. I am annoyed that two years on, there is still so much ignorance about the term. Hey, pinheads, no one is saying blue lives don’t matter.
Of course, many people DO know better but pretend otherwise for political and grifting reasons. They can be mocked and rebutted. Are the 10% of people who genuinely don’t understand the purpose of BLM redeemable and worth the effort? I don’t know. If you are a sentient adult who can’t be arsed to educate yourself yet on Covid vaccines two years into the pandemic, I am done with you. #Sorryantivaxer.
ReformedPantySniffer
Baud
@ReformedPantySniffer:
Also, don’t eat paste.
NotMax
Wildly OT.
Scratching my head that not one but two small boxes from Amazon showed up today. Not that they made it here but that they were dropped off on the front porch sometime before 7 a.m.!
Grumpy Old Railroader
This has been a good post with enlightening (and some eye-rolling) comments which warrants some introspection. I’ll just share a railroad story:
I was a young brakeman in the 60’s and the railroad had started to hire some minorities in the operating crafts (they didn’t hire women until the 70’s). So one of the black new hires was Big Foot Jones who was about 6′ 6″ and 200 lbs and was hired to be a fireman eventually engineer. So this trip, Big Foot gets called off the Fireman’s extra board to be an engineer and our train to Fresno, a 177 mile run. The old Conductor was Jitterbug Johnson (kind of a nervous and hyper guy). Well the radio on the caboose didn’t work but that was okay cuz the territory was all signalled so any talking with the dispatcher could be handled on the crew on the engines.
Well Big Foot didn’t have a lot of road experience and we hadn’t gone but abut 20 miles when the air brakes on the train set up. Seems Jitterbug had pulled the air valve on the caboose to stop the train. So there we set and pretty soon the rear brakeman walks up to the head end and that is when things went sideways.
Big Foot is looking down at the rear brakeman from his window and the brakeman hollers up “The conductor says yer beating us to death back there on the caboose with the train slack running in and out and you better find a better method of train handling or he’ll set your black ass out and get a different hoghead.
Bigfoot doesn’t say a word, we just start off real slow and run the train up a ways until the rear brakeman can swing up on the caboose and then Bigfoot throttles all the way up into #8 position without feathering the throttle positions and we take off like a slow moving rocket. I cringe as feel the slack of that 80 car train run-out and know if Jitterbug wasn’t happy before, he must really be unhappy now. Sure enough we get some color in the approaching signal that we’re gonna head in at the next siding to meet an oncomming train but Bigfoot waits until the last minute t slow down and instead of applying airbrakes to the train so that no slack runs in, he uses the engine brakes and when those 80 cars bunch up it bounces the locomotives ahead by a half car length. Well we get stopped at the other end of the siding and after the west bound passes us we get a clear signal to pull out of the siding and Bigfoot pulls the throttle wide open as we leap ahead and again I shutter as feel the slack running out of the train.
We hadn’t gone 10 miles when the air goes again and we come to a stop. The rear brakeman shows up out of breath in his haste to get to the head in and looks up at Bigfoot. The brakeman doffs his hat and says, “The conductor said to please tell you the the stove in the caboose tipped over and the water bottle broke and asks if you would be so kind as to go back to your original train handling he would be pleased to buy you dinner after we tie up in Fresno.”
That is a long was of explaining how a red neck cracker conductor and young black hoghead came to have dinner together and became good friends. I believe it was the sharing of food and seeing each other as individuals that cracked that nut
Kay
@sab:
I think the post is about two different things and I’m not clear how the “negativity” theme got shoehorned into the other, larger theme about marginalized voices, so I’m gonna shut up for now.
My least favorite BJ topic is “let’s talk about BJ” :)
dexwood
@Baud: Beats Miracle Whip.
FelonyGovt
I struggle sometimes for a way to indicate to a front pager that I have read and appreciated their initial post, and that I found it thought provoking, without completely stepping on it. In the absence of “like” buttons here (heaven forbid), I guess just “thank you” suffices.
Rusty
There is a concept we were taught at church when working with different communities, people of color, physically challenged, LGBTQ+, etc., called accompaniment. It means to support and work with but not to lead. Those communities lead and make decisions, we (a very white denomination trying to be better supportive of the wider community) are there to work, be supportive, to listen (and listen and listen) and offer advice to the extent we are specifically asked to offer it. I would love to have someone better steeped in this to offer some posts on accompaniment. There are lessons there that pertain directly to the issues raised in this post.
LongHairedWeirdo
@WaterGirl: One thing that I think is wrong with our national discourse – dear god, did I really *type* that phrase? – is that there’s too little good faith and good will being modeled, and there’s a lot of hyperbolic warnings.
“Let’s try to keep a positive vibe” is a find and dandy thing to want to do, and, if people agree, then being told “please check the tagline – we’d rather that go in an open thread” isn’t going to be a problem, really. More of an “oops, didn’t know I was about to tromp on some flowers, lemme find a better place to stand.”
Good people of good will can work together, to try to do good things. If the community agreed that some things were perfectly reasonable, and pretty much everyone didn’t see real harm, then I think a community could work that out. A few (truly!) friendly reminders, or suggestions to repost a comment in an open thread, or (for example) on threads of specific interests, maybe having comments be restricted for a bit, to give time for voices to be heard; I don’t see any problems with any of those things but I didn’t choose my nym because of the hair… other people might see plenty of problems, or too much hassle, or whatever.
The point is, we don’t have to assume the worst, and refuse to try. We might find it’s a bit more enjoyable if some threads are more topical; and it might be better to realize if you want to find the really *cool* stuff, the open threads are where it’s at. Or we might never get off square one, but me, I’m coming off a nasty CFS flare, and that usually infuses me with hopeless optimism. (Plus, I’ve always dreamed that the perfect man would be part Steve Rogers, and part Fred Rogers. Either of *them* would take a swing at seeing if some collective effort and thought could bring about good things.)
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
But the comments on Democratic speeches are all criticisms of media response to the speeches! Which I’m here for, as you know, but honestly if they weren’t about media what would they be about?
You can only have so many “great speech!” comments.
As far as NPR listeners adopting GOP frames, that’s been a costant for 20 years- we even have a name for them “totebaggers”. They’re not getting it from my comments! I have no control over NPR.
If this theory were correct there would be no local Democratic FTF organizations, because 50% of it is complaining about Democrats. They’re not “bad Democrats”. They’re the reliables.
Baud
@Grumpy Old Railroader:
You’re a good storyteller.
satby
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I agree. I appreciate that Cole brought on Mister Dancer and Thin Black Duke because we lean heavily stale white bread around here, and in recognition of how badly ABL and Zandar and other POC FPgers had been treated I had hoped at least their first posts had comments on topic and welcoming. And many were, tbf.
But I’m not here for armchair commenting psychoanalysis or for all the (yeah, it is) tone policing or single issue discussions. As a result, I’m not here much at all anymore.
WaterGirl
@satby: I began the post up top by pointing out that I had almost derailed a conversation in a thread that i had put up because I wanted to amplify the essay by the talented young black poet. I was about to turn the subject to mediocre white men, and I caught myself before I did that. You’re welcome to think that it’s ironic that i can learn from my mistakes and that I can wish that I had done this or that differently, or better, but I don’t see that as ironic.
To your other point, there have always been guest threads on Balloon Juice.. TaMara started out on Balloon Juice with guest posts put up by Anne Laurie. TaMara puts up guest posts by WereBear. Anne Laurie puts up guest posts by Tony Jay and SC. So I guess I don’t understand what point you are making about guest posts.
To your first point, in MisterDancer’s first post, I postponed MC the second I saw MisterDancer’s post go up, and I made that comment to forestall the “are we having Medium Cool” questions that often come up if Medium Cool isn’t up at the usual time. To me one comment that would forestall multiple other comments seemed like the lesser of two evils. You might have made a different calculation, that’s fine.
Benw
@Baud: either sounds better than “no one gives a fuck what we think!” :)
Josie
@MisterDancer: I like being given something different from my own perspective to chew on mentally. I don’t always comment on such a post, but I appreciate it. We have such a great diversity of posts on BJ, which is why I come here every day. It doesn’t hurt us to listen to a different view point once in a while and to try to see things through a different lens. Please do keep trying to give us that.
O. Felix Culpa
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Agreed, along with satby and Kay at #116. I’m here for the freewheeling political plus critters discussions. Including approaches and ideas that challenge and inform me. Handwringing navel-gazing not so much.
NotMax
@satby
The mornings threads have become the main draw for me as they still tend toward the eclectic.
Less doom means more room.
;)
raven
“Just listen”. So when there is a post by someone who we are not in their tribe “just listen”? Gonna get pretty lonesome for them but, then again, lots of times no one comments on the morning medical insurance posts.
Lyrebird
@Yarrow: Thanks, this speaks for me. I admire TBD’s writing, I grieve for the loss of young Ahmaud, I didn’t want to center my experience, if I have understood that correctly, and it was not the right spot for a snarky comment. So I did not reply, I said a prayer for the Arbery and Till families.
So if other people had a similar reaction and did not post because it was solemn and all, that would make the proportion of replies about arguing with the person who was asking about the latest Proud Boy news bigger than it should be.
WaterGirl
@raven: You raise a good point!
satby
@NotMax: And honestly, that’s pretty much where I park now too.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Multiple tabs for disparate topics are your friend. Believe it or not, most of us can walk and hold a shot glass at the same time. For short distances, anyway.
;)
satby
@Lyrebird: I didn’t see that, but it’s possible that the person was asking not to derail but to sort of request a post on the topic. I’m so old I remember when we used to get breaking news posts. There was a time when BJ would break a story within minutes of CNN.
Benw
@WaterGirl: I’m using “whitewashing” in the context of pushing non-white people and cultures out of spaces in favor of white(ness). Examples in movies/TV and fashion are hiring white actors to play non-white roles and using digital technology to lighten darker skin tones and “trim” black bodies to white cultural norms of beauty, respectively.
Reader’s Digest of all places has a decent run-down: https://www.rd.com/article/what-whitewashing-means-and-why-its-a-problem/
So here I’m talking about non-white posters/commenters being (sometimes, often BJ is respectful!) overwhelmed, either by being ignored or having the comments steered toward white experiences and concerns. And I’d like to listen to our FPers like MisterD if they want to address it.
ETA: thank you for attending my CRT talk :)
Yarrow
@satby: That started happening less when Cole, then DougJ and so forth went to Twitter.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: No idea what this comment might be referring to.
raven
Well should there be some kind of rubric for commenting on certain threads?
raven
nevermind
HRA
@Baud: BenW is right about that.
dopey-o
not sure if i understand what you are saying here…. but as an older older white guy who was raised with genteel racism, i have to ask:
WHO THE FVCK ELSE is going to bring justice to Black Americans? Black voters just saved America from fascism, FFS. If white people don’t ally with Black Americans, we will end up living under the same bridge.
May I suggest a new guideline? “I will nitpick TBD and Mr. Dancer when I can write as well as they do.”
NotMax
@Yarrow
Dependence on Twitter for content has become an insidious addiction. Why should I give a flying fig what some one hit wonder embed from a person nym-ed Happy Hemorrhoid spouts about (and to which I am unable to directly respond if so inclined) when I can get the same or better from the jackaltariat?
/adjust onions on belt
CarolPW
I came here in 2006 and stayed for: 1) Posts by Cole; 2) Posts by some of the front pagers he had at the time; and 3) comments made by many of the commenting community. John doesn’t post much any more, but the current front pagers and commenting community keep me here. Many commenters and front pagers have their own blogs; I don’t follow any of them. The only front pagers I would follow if they had blogs and BJ went dark would be Anne (because I think she has kept me and mine alive) and Betty (because she always makes me laugh).
I think John is a very good man. But he is often (I think) not a very nice man and I think that is a good thing. I think if anything kills the blog it will be too much nice.
Quaker in a Basement
@debbie:
I concur.
Steeplejack
@Yarrow:
I think Twitter itself has broken that “breaking news” thing, to a certain extent. So many people have Twitter accounts that when someone breaks a news flash on Twitter it gets propagated widely almost instantly. And, inevitably, someone mentions it here. So we get fewer “This just in!” posts.
raven
@Quaker in a Basement: That is fraught with peril methinks.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Would have thought it obvious. About the decision to postpone Medium Cool, and by extension other pulled for a later time posts.
FelonyGovt
@raven: This is what I was trying to get at but Raven said it better.
Is it better not to comment at all, to comment just to say “great post, I’ll think about it”, or to risk pulling the center of gravity away from the intent of the post?
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: thank you for everything you do. I appreciate it as I appreciate all the front pagers who give of their time and talents.
Another Scott
@Grumpy Old Railroader: That’s a great story. :-) Thanks!
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
@zhena gogolia:
Seconded.
zhena gogolia
@satby: no one here gets paid to be a journalist
NotMax
@FelonyGovt
Yeah, there are many times when I’ll read a post and its accompanying on topic comments and presume “silence conveys assent” is a given.
Benw
@raven: dunno, it’s kinda hard to tell folks here what to talk about. But I’d be interested to listen to some POC on it.
Benw
@germy: third3d!
satby
I love this comment and want to marry it.
raven
@Benw: So folks would identify themselves as part of the group and then “discuss”? We had a bunch of posts about life in the military and I’m pretty sure non-military folks engaged.
MisterDancer
@satby: Um, thank you for the defense. But I was in the wrong in that, and as mentioned, Watergirl was only posting to clarify how she was fixin’ what I broke. :)
And also as I mentioned above, I’ve posted everything as Open Threads. WaterGirl knows me well enough to know if there’s anything I think is always on topic, it’s getting money to the groups, on the ground, who actually implement the fancy ideals I write about.
satby
@zhena gogolia: was obviously not asking for journalism. But I suspect I’m not alone in wishing for more topical posts in fairly current time. You know, like some folks like to chat about what’s the latest developments in Ukraine?
WaterGirl
@NotMax: Ah. I was NOT going to put up a post 22 minutes after MisterDancer’s first post went up. To my mind, that would have been terribly inconsiderate and unwelcoming.
Especially since he did not appear to be aware that MC is a regular thing in that time slot.
West of the Rockies
Please imagine for a moment a train on a track. The people aboard know each other to some great or minor degree. There are multiple stops with new people getting on board. Some are bright and have social/emotional intelligence and can read the room (traincar). Others are less aware, less experienced, and have their own opinions and prejudices and experiences. It takes awhile for them to assimilate and become good train citizens. Some appear wholly hostile and ill-intentioned, and should perhaps get booted from the train. The majority we decide are worth getting to know and working with.
Humans all too often have a completely binary view: black-white, straight-Queer, feminist-misogynist, all good-all bad, etc. Sometimes we forget that we all have our own desires, bigotries, superstitions, beliefs, etc. In other words, we live in a world of nuance and shading.
Waiting for people to shed their bigotries and superstitions, and flawed thinking is taxing. Haven’t POC waited decades, centuries too long for white America to catch on? His is CRT a viable concern for so many morons?
Sometimes though we enter a rather absurdist situation where there is a saying or expression (for instance, “mediocre white men”) that those of us on the BJ train understand. But there are young men and women who are hearing that sentiment for the first time and might find it jarring. No, young sir, not all white males are mediocre. Some are terrible, some terrific and talented.
Sometimes I think that in the broader world we don’t police ourselves (tone police ourselves) effectively. I can imagine a young, world-ignorant white person hearing the “Sit down, shut up and listen to POC, you mediocre person” expression. I can imagine a more effective way to express the sentiment though. It is, of course, a needed, righteous sentiment.
For what it’s worth, I think Mister Dancer is doing a stellar job of trying to influence the arc of history and bend it towards justice. His patience and kindness and perservance are remarkable and appreciated.
And, yes, once in a while this 60-year-old cis white male finds the “mediocre white man” admonition off-putting. I understand it pertains to a limited chunk of the white male population (sadly, probably 60%). I understand it is a very valid notion. But I worry that in the broader community (other blogs, podcasts, TV shows, books, films, essays, songs, etc.) it could be used with a bit more explanation and nuance.
Okay, shred away if you wish.
Omnes Omnibus
@satby: You also have to remember that every front pager is highly remunerated for their work.
James E Powell
@UncleEbeneezer:
You’re right, but it drives me crazy that Democrats – or anyone loosely associated with Democrats – have to be extra super careful about every word (Psaki says have a margarita!!! Out of touch elitist wine mom!!!) while Republicans can say whatever lying, stupid, racist, misogynist shit they want and they are never attacked by the press/media and it only makes them more popular with their voters.
Benw
@raven: yeah, something that could get everyone involved in topics that POC would like to focus on.
Now I gotta go work on dinner for a bit – trying penne bake with fresh mozz for the first time!
NotMax
FYI.
satby
@MisterDancer: Wasn’t actually personal to you, honestly. Knowing the backstory on previous POC ill-fated attempts to bring a different perspective and hoping for better reception and courtesy is all my own deal. Plus, the rigid adherence to a “schedule” for a special front page feature that has been basically out of gas for months is absurd. I stay out of it because I try to stick to the say nothing ethos on stuff that I’m not interested in, because some people are. Fine, but they’ve become themed open threads, not a post and discussion about it, so we don’t have to adhere to a schedule like people are actually caring what time it drops. No one does.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Mixon is the one
Geminid
@Mousebumples: Virginia State Senator L. Louise Lucas also has an interesting Twitter account (@SenLouiseLucas). As Majority Leader of the State Senate, Lucas is effectively the leader of the anti-Youngkin Resistance.
I like to think that the 77 year-old Lucas has spent her life preparing for this role. She entered elective politics in 1991 and has represented Portsmouth in the General Assembly ever since. But years before that, Lucas entered the Norfolk Navy Yard in 1967 as an Apprentice Shipfitter. In 1971 she became the yard’s first woman Shipfitter. At that time and place, she had to have known when and how to stand up for herself. Now she’s standing tall for the people of Virginia, and doing it with enthusiasm that is infectious.
Raven
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: Fukin A
WaterGirl
@James E Powell:
If this wouldn’t take up the whole screen, it would make an excellent rotating tag.
satby
@Omnes Omnibus: what exactly does that have to do with what I’m saying? Yeah, they’re not paid, so they’re likely doing other stuff. It’s probably true the drop off is due to John, DougJ, and now Cheryl Rofer being more on twitter than here with immediate takes on stuff. We’re still allowed to miss topical posts, right?
zhena gogolia
@satby: what do you mean “out of gas”? If you don’t like it, fine, but it’s not out of gas.
zhena gogolia
@satby: Betty had a topical post a few hours ago. Anne aggregates all the COVID news etc
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: Tomorrow we’re talking about Japanese culture, books, movies, art, etc.
satby
@zhena gogolia: As I said, it doesn’t interest me when it’s basically a themed open thread, but I just skip it. But it certainly isn’t critical what time it shows up, and pretty certainly doesn’t need a postponed announcement. Unless people are way more invested in blog post timing than I can imagine.
satby
@zhena gogolia: you’re happy with things. Fine. I have another view and don’t understand why you feel the need to argue with me about it, since neither of us will see things the same. And others have pointed out less verbosely that they might agree with some of my thoughts.
karen marie
I’m very late to this party but I want to thank WaterGirl for her thoughtful reminder.
MisterDancer
@satby: Cheryl resigned completely as a Front Pager, here.
As someone who writes fairly long — those kinds of high-information posts are work. Even for something you know in your bones, you tend to need to spend time outside writing in checking/citing your facts, if nothing else.
Even my 1st post, what was basically about a 90s pop song, was about 20 min of looking for and reading articles to provide context. Oh, and looking for a good gospel song to explain my main thesis.
Oh! I meant to add: I get your main point, I do. What you’re saying is why I write like I do, to some extent. :)
Steeplejack
@raven:
That’s sort of a special case. My theory is that Mayhew has a group of professional colleagues who read those posts and maybe comment elsewhere (or trade e-mails?). And he regularly gets comments from us peons that we appreciate his expertise but don’t feel qualified to weigh in on a discussion.
Omnes Omnibus
@satby: There are days when I would like to see certain types of posts, including, as you mentioned, the situation in Ukraine. But I remind myself that this place is run by volunteers and I get to read it for free.
Raven
@MisterDancer: and there is no one to protect us from the Russians now!
Sure Lurkalot
Separating a post from the ensuing thread for a different perspective.
Think of the thread as a group of people assembled at a cocktail party having a conversation (the post). You notice one of the people is a friend, you insert yourself in the circle. You can immediately greet your friend, with the chance you’ll derail the conversation. You can hold back and wait for space to speak to your friend, with the chance that you’ll be drawn into the conversation, maybe having something to add, maybe not. Or you can discover or get the feeling you’re not part of the conversation, for any number of reasons, because you’re late to it, you’re not interested in it, you really just wanted to say hey to your friend but it can wait.
satby
@MisterDancer: I’m aware of Cheryl’s resignation and why, thanks. Also exiting the conversation, because I’ve said pretty much all I have on this topic, which has wandered all over the joint anyway.
Raven
@Steeplejack: I forward many of them to our local senior cit insurance advisor “the Grumpy Retiree”!
Raven
Damn the pie filter doesn’t work on my phone!!!
zhena gogolia
@Raven: who are you trying to ?
Raven
@zhena gogolia: oh I don’t know, some snot.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven: What did I do now?
Baud
@Raven:
You have to do it separately for each device. On your phone Just click to the pie image underneath the main post and select my nym.
Raven
@Omnes Omnibus: my brother!!!!
Raven
@Baud: we’ll I’ll be, gone again!
Jerzy Russian
@Raven: I think You have to have a filter for each device you use.
WaterGirl
@Raven: The pie filter should work on your phone, but the pied list is separate for each device.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: If he doesn’t answer you, it could be you. :-)
(not serious)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@NotMax:
conversations do seem to peter out in the afternoons/evenings these days, I attribute it at least in part to time-zone distribution,
raven
@WaterGirl: Yea, I got it, thx! Now that it’s the 4th quarter I can go back to my phone!
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl: I thought of that!
NotMax
@raven
Jackals pie, Republicans lie.
:) //
OzarkHillbilly
Just want to say that it is really hard for a white person to leave their whiteness behind. It colors everything we say hear and do. We can not divorce ourselves from it, no matter how hard we try. We will never experience the world from a black person’s perspective.
Sometimes we should just STFU and listen.
And with that, I’m going away. Sorry folks, I got to make dinner. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: define listen
Starboard Tack
@dopey-o: Nit picking? Not at all and you’ve illustrated my point by advocating for white folks saving black folks. How patronizing. To paraphrase, James Baldwin once remarked that the only thing black folks wanted from white folks was to get out of the way.
James E Powell
@zhena gogolia:
Is that like, “If only Hillary had visited Wisconsin?”
Ohio Mom
Just finished dinner. Bought a pre-made ball of pizza dough at Trader Joe’s and everyone did their third differently.
It was so much fun, I am googling “how to make pizza dough without a stand mixer” videos. Also rueing donating the wedding present bread machine we never used to the Sisterhood rummage sale four or five years ago. Sometimes decluttering works against you.
James E Powell
@Grumpy Old Railroader:
That comment needs a soundtrack. Awesome story.
RedDirtGirl
@Leslie: that seems like really sage advice.
Starboard Tack
@Ohio Mom: No kneed pizza dough is good. Just takes a long time.
Raven
Nine sacks!!!
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Huh? You say something? Gotta go.
Starboard Tack
@Raven: Are we doing 12 Days of Football? 8 play action passes.
Yarrow
@CarolPW:
Agree.
Raven
@Starboard Tack: The Titans have sacked Burroughs 9 times and the Bungles win!!!!
James E Powell
@Raven:
Which they just coughed up. It’s a brutal world.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yarrow: Fuck you. There I am doing my part.
Starboard Tack
@Raven: Thanks. I was being whimsical. Go Titans.
Raven
@Starboard Tack: they lost
Starboard Tack
@Raven: Bummer.
Steeplejack
@raven:
I’m sort of amazed at how gambling has taken over advertising for all the games. They don’t even advertise beer any more, but gambling is okay?! WTF.
banditqueen
Infrequent commenter sez… it’s a different world now (trump campaign, post-trump), than it was during the Obama years. During Hillary’s campaign we saw some ugly stuff & it only got worse… and then DT’s election and maladministration … Dems persevered and now we have Biden, who’s per the major part of the MSM, an abject failure. Balloon Juice isn’t quite as care free as it was before all this because now everything seems like a matter of life or death–for some of us this is literally true (racism, anti-semitism, anti-LGBTQ, on & on). Not everything is a joke or wry or snarky–there’s still lots of humor, culture, gardens, etc, but we’ve barely survived a pandemic, trump and the current repubs, MSM interference, and these issues and more are always looming. what is it about ‘though nothing can bring back the hour of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower, we will grieve not, rather find strength in what remains behind’ — we can hash out and develop our thoughts, beliefs, focus on what’s necessary, take time to refresh (thanks Psaki) and win this fight, we have to.
Raven
@Steeplejack: And the Manning boys leading the way! I’ve never been interested in fantasy but it dominates all this shit.
NotMax
@Ohio Mom
Basic pizza dough recipe in the old Joy of Cooking works like a champ. Can’t imagine it’s changed much in current editions, but ya never know.
debbie
@NotMax:
There’s a reason most commentators are working remotely.
Nelle
@LongHairedWeirdo: Leviticus – 13:44 the man is diseased; he is unclean. The priest must pronounce him unclean because of the infection on his head. 45A diseased person must wear torn clothes and let his hair hang loose, and he must cover his mouth and cry out, ‘Unclean, unclean!’ 46As long as he has the infection, he remains unclean. He must live alone in a place outside the camp.…
NotMax
@Steeplejack
Bring back communal beer!
;)
Starboard Tack
@NotMax: Raw ale!!
zhena gogolia
@banditqueen: Well said.
WaterGirl
@Nelle: Your comment went into moderation because of too many links. I freed the first one and then deleted your second try.
Yarrow
@Steeplejack: There was an interesting opinion piece in the Financial Times. this past week on why gambling is so pervasive. I’m not sure I agree with the author’s thesis (people don’t think they can get rich slow so they opt to try to get rich quick) but it’s an interesting roundup of just how many places gambling is offered. In apps, in games, online, right to your phone, in additional to the usual places like Vegas. It’s everywhere and all the time.
WaterGirl
@banditqueen: I think there’s a lot of truth to what you wrote. And perspective. thanks for that.
Nelle
@WaterGirl: Thanks. I thought there was just one but whadda I know? I like the verse to be flung in the face of Christianists.
Ohio Mom
@Starboard Tack: Just googled no knead pizza — many thanks! I don’t think I have the upper body strength to knead dough but I do have lots of time. I
Matt McIrvin
@Kineslaw: I am taking a break from Twitter right now because it hasn’t been good for my mental health. Mostly because there’s a certain type of perpetually hostile circular-firing-squad leftist there that it seems impossible to get entirely away from if you follow anyone remotely interesting (because they’ll get liked and quoted and retweeted by decent people with progressive politics), but listening to the stuff they say all day long just grinds you down. A lot of them just seem to be broadcasting perpetual paralyzing anxiety and you’ve all seen that spill over into me.
BUT! It is also an extraordinarily good place to follow people who are extremely different from oneself and just shut up and listen. That is probably the best thing about it. Black Twitter alone is an amazing resource.
I miss the second thing when I am doing my best to get away from the first thing.
Steeplejack
@zhena gogolia:
Special to you: Some channel on my cable system is rerunning Castle in chronological order, and they’re starting Season 7 next week, which is where I left off when the show was on originally. (The end of Season 6 is the explosion and Castle disappearing at the wedding.) I’m mildly tempted to watch it, except that I seem to remember that I was already becoming disenchanted with Season 6, and since then I have read various stories about what a dick Nathan Fillion was, particularly to Stana Katic. And at this point the series feels dated in memory. Any compelling reason to take it up again?
Starboard Tack
@Ohio Mom: I think the long rest makes a better tasting crust.
Ohio Mom
@NotMax: If the Joy of Cooking recipe I just googled is it, nope, I can’t knead for ten minutes with my bum arm.
But the no knead approach is a real possibility. What’s the worse that could happen, flour is cheap.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@debbie:
Is it the fear that Chinese hackers (government and private) will steal information and infect devices?
I heard that ESPN will not be sending commentators to the Winter Olympics in China
Yarrow
@Ohio Mom: If you have a stand mixer you may also have a dough hook that goes with it. You can use that to make pizza dough.
RSA
What an interesting thread! And what an interesting range of views.
@WaterGirl: You do amazing work on BJ, and I’m only responding to your comment here in case it gets your attention, but it’s not on that topic: I realize that if I hadn’t said what I did above, in a comment, then only you and whoever looks at the site traffic data would have any idea whether I’d read this piece and click on the “Post + Comments” link. What would you think of adding a “visits” count to what’s visible to ordinary readers, so that everyone could see what people tend to read or skip over?
That’s actually not what I originally intended this comment to be about, though. Maybe it was going back to read John’s original posts. He can correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression over the years was that BJ was his place to say, “Here’s what I think. This is my perspective on the world.” And in inviting co-bloggers on board, he was saying, “This is a broader perspective on the world. No specific endorsement of individual opinions, but I trust the people giving them.”
There’s been a gradual shift that may have become well-established during the Obama years? Maybe earlier. (Maybe it was present from the beginning and I completely missed it!) It’s a shift from persuasive writing to activism. Not just “Here’s one way to think about things” but “…and if you agree, here’s what you can do in support.”
This seems a natural evolution, right? But I think it is a shift. By analogy, imagine Jen Psaki discussing events with her team behind closed doors, and contrast that with their discussion of those same events in public. Of course there’s tone policing in the latter, much less in the former. It’s also possible, equally of course, to think of BJ as containing free-wheeling discussions of individual points of view that may/should not be interpreted as anything but a semi-coherent conversation.
Just a few thoughts that I’ll probably regret having written down in a few hours.
debbie
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Seemed to me to be more that they were afraid of saying something that might set off the government and not knowing what the government would do to them.
Leslie
Re tone policing: I love Cole’s posts, and Betty Cracker’s. I would hate it if BJ turned into a bunch of overly-polite navel gazing.
I think suggesting that a bunch of mostly-white folks listen to marginalized voices when they speak up here is several galaxies removed from tone policing. Not sure how the one gets equated with the other.
Ohio Mom
@Yarrow: My only mixer is a little handheld thing that cost $15 when I bought it twenty years ago. I bought it to make sponge cakes for Passover and that it does just fine.
It does have a pair of dough hooks but I’m afraid using it on dough would burn its little engine out.
sab
@Ohio Mom: deleted. Not a useful comment.
Yarrow
@Ohio Mom: FWIW, re your original comment on Trader Joe’s pizza dough, it can easily be frozen. Very handy.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Steeplejack:
I remember watching and really liking Castle when it aired back in the day. Watched it with my folks every week.
I read that Stana Kadic was the one who was difficult to work with, but who really knows with these behind the scenes articles anyway?
The series finale was pitiful and it ended with a rushed scene of Castle and Beckett with some kids, years later.
The whole heart of the show was the chemistry between those two and once they got married, a lot of the tension of the “will they or won’t they” was gone. Same thing happened with Lois and Clark; then the writers kept trying to invent drama to keep the show going by separating Clark and Lois constantly. I remember in one storyline, Lois was on death row ?
It became ridiculous
Ohio Mom
@sab: whatever, I appreciate you thinking of me.
I still fantasize about Covid abating by summer and our big all-Ohio meetup in Columbus. I imagine asking debbie to choose the restaurant and make the reservation, and am thinking a lunch at around one would give you enough time to drive all that way and still get back home at a decent hour. As they say, a girl can dream.
Dan B
Our neighbors are black on three sides and there are lots of immigrants from SE Asia and the Middle East. Twelve years ago when we moved here I noticed my racist fears but that lasted only a few weeks, fortunately. Now is uncomfortable to be in the White neighborhoods and small towns. The 30 something and 50 something black men are big guys who work construction. They exude happiness but I believe there’s an element of protection. Our 50 something neighbor hastily me he’s afraid to drive in the white neighborhoods as did a black guy I dated decades ago. I got to see the world through other eyes. The guy I dated ended up a provost at a big university in Philadelphia. He was so out of my league. He’s single still which seems sad. I met my partner shortly after he broke things off 28 years ago. It was apparent I would be a drag on his academic ambitions. It was the first time I didn’t feel crushed. That relationship was very transformative to me.
Steeplejack
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Thanks for the goddamn spoiler.
debbie
@Ohio Mom:
I already have a couple of places in mind…
sab
@Ohio Mom: I would love that. Normally I’d stay with my sister in Columbus but they downsized to a condo
ETA I am used to that trip as a one day round trip, because we holiday back and forth.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Steeplejack:
Oh shit. I forgot you hadn’t watched the whole thing yet; I thought you were doing a rewatch of the entire thing. Sorry
You’re not missing much anyway. It’s not that good after season 6, like you sort of observed. Again, sorry
Ohio Mom
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): You’ll come to my meet-up too, won’t you? We will give you plenty of lead time to rearrange your work schedule.
Next on list: Cure Covid.
Ohio Mom
@Yarrow: That is the best idea — assuming the dough is still for sale, I will buy several and freeze them.
I will say, being a Trader Joe’s customer prepared me for all the supply chain issues. I’m used to not finding what I came for. Last time, it was frozen falafel balls. Will they be back or was it one of those items that was a one-time deal?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Ohio Mom:
Absolutely!
Gin & Tonic
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Yes, obviously. Same reason my son took a burner phone and laptop on his last trip to Russia.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@debbie:
Damn. That’s pretty bad, if that’s the reason. Talk about thin-skinned
Steeplejack
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Just stop digging. Please.
zhena gogolia
@Steeplejack: I have never seen it
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Gin & Tonic:
Your son’s in Ukraine still, right?
Steeplejack
@zhena gogolia:
Sorry. I could have sworn we discussed it at some point.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Steeplejack:
Sorry
sab
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): My sister has been going to China almost every year since the 1980s.Chinese officials routinely infect visitors phones with spyware and malware. She says she has to replace her phone every time she comes back home because it’s so screwed up from their software put into it in Customs. She just looks at that as a routine part of travel to China. Reporters would undoubtedly feel differently.
Brachiator
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Same thing happened with Moonlighting and any other number of shows. I understand that the new CW Superman series begins with Supe and Lois Lane married or a couple. So they begin from a place where that tension has already been resolved.
sab
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): They may also be concerned about Covid lockdowns and quarantines. It’s possible that a reporter would arrive, test positive and spend the whole Olympics stuck in quarantine and umable to report.
Gin & Tonic
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Wrong.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Gin & Tonic:
Oh. Well, I’m glad considering current events
schrodingers_cat
@satby: The blog has changed character. I too miss the old Balloon Juice.
WaterGirl
@Dan B: I appreciate your sharing that story.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: One of my favorite episodes would have been one of the last ones you would have watched in season 6. Episode 20.
It was the one where they had to pretend it was the 1970s. Great fun, I thought. It’s the only Castle episode I have saved on Tivo.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@sab:
@sab:
Ah, I see. Sounds like a hassle to want to visit China then
@Brachiator:
Yup, it definitely happens to a lot of shows. To be honest, I think it can be done well where the characters get together, but the drama can’t focus on them anymore imo
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
I was thinking about watching the last several episodes of Season 6 to refresh my memory. I’ll look out for that one. (I don’t remember it.)
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: If you watch that one, let me know what you think.
I can’t believe it’s only been off the air for 5 years. It feels like a lifetime ago. May 2016, pre-dumpster fire.
BT and AT. (before and after the dumpster fire) It really does feel like a different world.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Steeplejack:
I said I was sorry
Dan B
@WaterGirl: Thanks. I always wonder what bits of racism lurk in me. I have in laws who are probably stone cold racists. I feel rage building when I think about the high regard they hold themselves in because of their breeding and manners. They do not understand our lived experience.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Dan B:
Ever watch Get Out?
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: It changes all the time.
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
I might have just missed it. The channel shows multiple episodes in a block, and it looks like Monday starts with S6E21.
Steeplejack
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Got it.
KBS
I’m super late to this thread, but am de-lurking to say that I think it’s vital that groups with privilege tone police themselves, and keep thinking about how they can do better. I’m stunned that seems to be a controversial take here. Thanks for this post.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: Darn it!
Ruckus
@West of the Rockies:
This dovetails with my comment way up thread. Humans have experiences based upon what they see, what they “know,” what they have been taught and what they have experienced. And as much as we may – or may not try to understand, we all have a perspective, good, bad or indifferent. And while we may be aware of a lot of good, bad, indifferent, we also have our perspective, good and bad. It is the sum of our experiences and expectations. We can always learn more, understand more, be better. Or worse. And that worse is also learned. And learned can be reenforced or proven wrong. But we have to want that learning to continue and not close off the avenues that make change possible.
West of the Rockies
@Ruckus:
Well said. I think we half-die when we lose intellectual curiosity and become convinced of our own greatness. Dana Carvey’s grumpy old man comes mind.
Jimmm
@Ohio Mom:
I’ll second the no-knead dough… giving the yeast more time to work produces a better end product – whether it’s pizza dough or bread.
Ruckus
@West of the Rockies:
I learned at a very young age that I would never be able to learn everything, but damned if I haven’t tried to learn as much as I can stuff in this hard head. I try to never see, say or believe that I know it all. Because no one ever does, there is always something new. Even after decades of experience, every day can be something new. Hell I’m still trying to figure out how to sleep through the night. I manage on occasion but have no idea how I did it.
Trine
@Grumpy Old Railroader: I’m glad you didn’t give us the tl;dr version. Wish there was a place where I could read more of your stories.
WaterGirl
@Trine: In the balloon juice comments! :-)
Yet Another Haldane
@Barbara:
Yes! Randomly appropriate memory from an episode of This American Life: a couples therapist, Esther Perel, is counseling a wife and husband. The man, who had betrayed the marriage, repeatedly slips into breast-beating about what a horrible person he is, making the conversation All About Him. Dr. Perel:
It’s really hard for us mediocre white men to do that.