There’s a piece at Vox called “Why so much Obama-era pop culture feels so cringe now.” To the extent that the thesis is accurate (and for the purpose of discussion I stipulate it is among the author’s cohort), I think I know the answer to that question: It’s because a decade has passed.
But according to the article, the shiver of cringe signifies much more than the passage of time; the author claims millennials acquired a collective distaste for former pop culture favorites like “Hamilton,” “Harry Potter” and “Parks and Rec” because the Obamas, Clintons and (fictional) Knopes failed us:
Hillary lost the election to Donald Trump. She and her hard work and her commitment to navigating the constraints of the system and her politics of representation did not save us. In response, the culture has turned on her. In America’s popular imagination, she’s become a symbol of all the worst impulses of the Democratic Party establishment: both a neolib and a neocon. So the art to which Hillary was continually compared throughout the 2016 election is reviled now, too.
Hamilton is understood to use its color-conscious casting to “whitewash” the slave-owning founding fathers. Harry Potter, fans note to each other significantly, “was a trust fund jock who became a cop and married his high school sweetheart,” and moreover his author is transphobic. Parks and Recreation is a symbol of the failure of liberalism in the face of Donald Trump.
“That’s what Parks and Rec did for most of its run, assuaging the anxieties of managerial-class liberals by telling them everything would be okay if we trusted the grownups — the Obamas, the Clintons, the Knopes — to look out for us,” wrote Timothy Shenk for Dissent in 2019.
Walk into the sea? Maybe I’ll just fucking jog to Atlantis instead.
Furthermore, the author claims the waning popularity of “Ted Lasso” means Biden better get his shit together double-quick:
As both the backlash toward Ted Lasso’s second season and Biden’s plummeting approval ratings both demonstrate, our patience with this [Biden-like folksy, avuncular] archetype is not infinite. Still, right now, Ted Lasso is the collective liberal fantasy of who Joe Biden could be if we maybe all wished hard enough. He’s replaced the collective fantasy of who Hillary Clinton could be after she failed to best Donald Trump. And only time will tell us if we’ll end up repudiating him — and all his pop cultural analogues — too.
Christ on a cracker. Somehow this explains so much and yet nothing at all. Open thread.
sab
” Hamilton” is cringe? Srsly?
hueyplong
We have two major parties and one of them is committed to 24/7 assholery, supported by several propaganda networks and unlimited dark funding.
Really don’t feel the need to elaborate further.
Central Planning
I’ve never made a connection between Ted Lasso and Joe Biden. WTF is wrong with people?
I feel like a NYTimes Pitchbot tweet is coming: Diners in this small Ohio town have never seen Ted Lasso and that’s bad news for Biden.
Ken
Note however that Foundation has been renewed, and CSI: Wherever continues to reproduce in various media like HeLa cells. Therefore*, voters have also rejected Republicans, and we can expect the Free Silver party to make a stunning comeback next year.
* My “therefore” makes as much sense as the original author’s.
Citizen Alan
Personally, I think if there’s any backlash against Ted Lasso, it’s because it stole all those Emmys from Wandavision, but maybe that’s just me.
Baud
To my knowledge, Harry Potter is still widely popular, despite the lamentations of what Rowling has been doing on trans issues.
FWIW, based on anecdotal experience, it seems like there is currently an active push to get young voters to walk away from Dems, and this article seems of a piece with that agenda.
The excerpts you posted are themselves cringe-worthy IMHO.
Baud
I have never seen Parks and Rec or Ted Lasso FWIW.
Baud
I also believe Seinfeld and Friends are popular in reruns/streaming, so that clearly shows that people long for the return of Bill Clinton.
NotMax
The audience for pop culture is fickle?
Stop the presses!
//
Ken
@Baud: That does fit the profile of the typical Baud! 20XX voter.
Baud
@Ken:
I am neither folksy nor avuncular.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ken: Free silver? Fuck that. Free your mind and your ass will follow.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Baud
In any event, aren’t millenials like 40 years old now?
sab
@Baud: I love Parks and Recs. As a CPA I used to work on city audits, and boy do governments hire all types. From slimy and cynical Ron to stars-in-her-eyes-hoping-for-unicorns Leslie, they all are there in local government, mostly working hard.
SpaceUnit
When you suddenly realize the deadline for your Vox culture navel-gaze piece is an hour away but the acid is already starting to kick in.
Baud
Also, too, I miss Mnemosyne.
raven
I’m glad I’m watching football.
mali muso
Yeah, I read that article yesterday and rolled my eyes so hard. Too cool for school indeed.
schrodingers_cat
Besides the first 3 Harry Potter movies, I have watched nothing on this list. This is a stupid article, dressed as a savvy take.
sab
@Baud: My millenial stepkids are. Also, they can’t afford to watch tv. They can’t afford cable. And streaming eats up their data allowance.
Citizen Alan
Also, I read the article and now have a new definition of “moronic.”
Barry
Between guys like this and diviners looking at livers, I’ll take the Liver People.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Me 2. I will wish her for the New Year and tell her that you miss her.
Ken
Yeah, but their replacement generation all follow 60 random TikTok and YouTube channels, plus one or two of the thousands of streaming video programs, none of which pick up more than 1% of the overall population. So it’s impossible to make any generalization about them, especially not the huge sweeping ones that pundits prefer.
(Which is only because they’re secretly yearning for the day when there were 3-1/2 networks, and 60% of the country believed whatever Walter Cronkite told them.)
mrmoshpotato
Oh go fuck yourself into the sea!
ETA
Oh go fuck yourself to the bottom of the Mariana trench and start digging!
sab
@Baud: Doesn’t everyone miss Mnemosyne? EarlyBJ at night is really sad.
Citizen Alan
@mali muso: It’s telling to me that you can predict the quality of an article in nearly any media forum by whether or not they allow comments. Totally unsurprised that Vox doesn’t want to hear what people have to say about this bilge.
fancycwabs
Ted Lasso is the story of a Trump supporter who hides under a veneer of platitudes. There are no Democrats among college football coaches–Nick Saban’s support of Joe Manchin does not count
I imagine Coach Beard is a libertarian, but he could surprise me.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: Agreed. I am old so my opinion doesn’t count, but you aren’t.
David Fud
Cringe is using cultural zeitgeist (as explained by Constance Grady) to explain politics. Sure, that totally makes sense. If this is the best we are going to get from the Millenials, just bring on the comet now. And that is me, Gen Xer, walking around with a full helping of, “OK, Boomer”.
Baud
@mrmoshpotato:
Seriously. Hillary-bashing is the easist way to lose credibility in my eyes. And that’s what old white men folk do. Hardly screams sophisticated young person to me.
The Dangerman
Literary equivalent of David Hasselhoff’s Greatest Hits.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: So do I. There is recent evidence that Richard III was not guilty of killing his nephews. I would like to taunt her Alison Weir trusting, pro-Tudor self about it.
sab
@Citizen Alan: I am embarrassed for Vox. I expected better of them. Maybe they’ll pull it. They have done that before.
Baud
Anyone else watch Wheel of Time on Amazon? I haven’t read any of the books, but the visuals is the series are amazing.
Woodrow/asim
ARGH. These critiques of Hamilton were out when the play was still on Broadway, I recall reading and debating them. If it’s “cool,” it’s more because they gained new life with the Disney+release & the other projects Lin-Manuel is hot on (the movies TICK TICK…BOOM and IN THE HEIGHTS), which have their own, somewhat related critiques. This didn’t come out of nowhere, nor is it reflecting some kind of massive “cultural shift” — outside the one where:
– People of Color have more “play” in the mainstream for discussing and raising these concerns, and
– Miranda’s works are more well-known, and thus gaining more scrutiny.
Hamilton is a genre-defining and moving piece of work. It’s also — shock! — flawed. Given that Miranda has been clear that it was a host of stars that aligned for the release (most notably COVID), this whole-assed article falls flat on the face of actually understanding how media and social media discussions work.
And it’s especially busted that they tie this all to Hillary Clinton, who’s far more a poster child for toxic media depictions than anything this article claims as reality.
And speaking of toxic, running an article like this that talks about Harry Potter, and ignores the massive backlash its creator is getting for her transphobia — yet claiming some “cultural shift” in how people see that franchise that’s due to “just politics”?
FOR FUCK’S SAKE.
Lazy, lazy writing on nearly every level.
smith
This really has a strong whiff of the RW’s reliance on victimization to explain everything: My life is shit, and it’s somebody else’s fault! Probably Hillary’s!
Baud
@sab:
That way the NYT can pick it up.
Sean
The Ted Lasso backlash, to the extent there is one (?) is because it was hugely popular, and there is nothing people in this country love more than destroying and defiling anything that rises to extreme popularity.
It’s especially odd regarding Ted Lasso, which is just an experiment in portraying kindness as normal and virtuous in and of itself. That is why it resonated in 2020, a year in which kindness was almost non-existent. It’s not high art and it isn’t propaganda for Biden, so I really don’t get the wasted effort of the article, or why people can’t just enjoy things anymore.
zhena gogolia
@sab: yeah. I’m about to teach it and a student told me it was now considered cringe. But I’m full up with a waiting list. So my job is to show them it isn’t cringe but a timeless work of art. I feel quite confident.
Tom Q
I thought drawing stupid political inferences from cultural successes or failures was strictly Maureen Dowd’s bailwick.
I remember when Forrest Gump’s success was supposed to prove Gingrich-ism was the future of politics. Two years later, Clinton was resoundingly re-elected.
Whatever the outcome of the Biden administration…and, contra the venomous current political wisdom, I’m ready to bet the over on its ultimate success…it has nothing to do with whether a TV show’s second season isn’t deemed as good as its first.
Old School
@Citizen Alan:
I think that is just you. AFAIK, they were competing in different categories (comedy vs limited series).
mrmoshpotato
@Baud: I didn’t see any indication of this fucknut’s age. But that’s unimportant.
Suzanne
I read that piece a day or so ago and it’s just dumb. Eye-rolling at earnestness is Gen X’s wheelhouse, fuckers!
L85NJGT
@SpaceUnit:
That’s how Leonard Pierce ended up writing for Jacobin.
zhena gogolia
@SpaceUnit: lol
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: I do too
Woodrow/asim
Really enjoying it, overall, as is my Partner. Not read the books; I mostly started watching due to a Romance author on Twitter who has similar tastes to mine in media.
That said, there are a lot of fair critiques, including by Brandon Sanderson, the fella who finished the book series (and who’s series of lectures on writing I happen to be watching, slowly, at the moment). I daresay it mostly works if you, like I did, kind of fall for the characters and their potential, even if the 1st season clearly had a lot of challenges meeting said potential (including one cast member just flat-out leaving towards the end of filming). Part of that is that I’ve wanted more Rosamond Pike since 2005’s PRIDE AND PREJUDGE, and this show is certainly a showcase for her acting, and clearly is something she’s passionate about being in!
WereBear
@sab: I do, too.
sdhays
I fail to understand how a critically acclaimed show on AppleTV, a venue accessed by a fairly small but relatively wealthy demographic, has any bearing on anything other than Apple’s revenue.
Baud
@mrmoshpotato: I wasn’t going to give it a click to look up the author’s bio.
Cacti
Hillary lost to Trump because grandpa goodness from Vermont promised you a pony, and your cohort decided not to vote for her when she beat him.
Things that really haven’t aged well:
“Tell me a reason why I should vote for Hillary without mentioning the Supreme Court.”
Baud
@Cacti: It was a portion of the cohort, but otherwise it’s not wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I watched it. Meh. I have not read the books.
mrmoshpotato
@Baud:
Would he create another federal budget for a Rethuglican shitbag to destroy by committing war crimes?
NotMax
@Woodrow/asim
Was?
Still at the Richard Rodgers theater on W. 46 Street. Running for over six years now.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Meh on the series, or meh on the visuals?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This is the most dramatic case of Pauline Kaelism I have seen in a very, very long time. “Everyone I haven’t blocked on twitter agrees!”
I’m not gonna bother with the Vox post, but is it really this cringe-inducingly earnest in describing this theory of cringe?
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Betty Cracker’s cohort?
sab
@Baud: About a year ago Vox had an article by a young Black woman reporter from NYC going out to the Midwest who discovered there were Black people there, who knew? (Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Kansas City, St Louis?)
I was all set to be indignant on BJ, but within hours they pulled it. Do they have editors? They must because their overall standards are high, but their whoppers are very whopping.
Betty Cracker
@Woodrow/asim: To be fair, the author does acknowledge the transphobia factor. It’s even mentioned in the excerpt above.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: I actually have a half-serious pet theory that a generation raised on Harry Potter is how you explain the explosion of the Bernie cult.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: but it’s so cringe! This student went on to say that she reminds her friends that Lin Manuel Miranda is really old, like 45, so you have to make allowances
mrmoshpotato
@Baud: LOL? Yes.
dmsilev
@Woodrow/asim: I enjoyed it except for the last episode which I thought was a bit of a mess.
Read some of the books probably 10 or 15 years ago, don’t really remember too many of the details.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Meh on the series. I watched series 2 of the Witcher at about the same time and found it much more compelling (I was just fine with the racially diverse elves btw).
debbie
@sab:
I find myself at a loss for much of what I read now, whether it’s Twitter, FB, or anywhere else. Damn kids.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: I only have Prime, not Netflix. Can’t watch the Witcher.
Woodrow/asim
People REALLY want to find some Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance-level “meaning” from Ted Lasso. Which makes sense, because (and I say this as a fan!) at it’s core Ted Lasso is basically an updated/fish-outta-watch The Andy Griffith Show in terms of themes and goals, and a lot of viewers…of a type, we’ll say, really gravitate to that kind of storytelling, esp. in turbulent times. (HINT: Ted and Clark Kent are both Kansas boys…)
And there is meaning there, solid meaning. But it’s not all peaches and roses, yanno?
Season 2 is to their credit for working hard to break ALL of that up, while aiming to keep the core of being decent to each other. The slow-burning narrative choice that explodes in everyone’s face at the end of this season is beautiful in its pain. I hope it continues to shine a light on Ted’s failings and flaws, so that he — and we, as an audience — can learn how to overcome using optimism as a shield against reality (hey there, so-called STAR TREK fans…)
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Doesn’t sound far fetched to me.
germy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I have a similar theory, except instead of Harry Potter it’s an inability to afford a mortgage, rent or healthcare.
mary s
I usually stick to the policy stuff on Vox — Jerusalem Demsas is one of my faves. I guess I’m just too much of an old white lady to appreciate most of the culture vulturing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: The bad guy with all the teeth was pretty cool.
James E Powell
@Omnes Omnibus:
Have you seen this “evidence”? It’s described as “Da Vinci Code” -style clues.
And Philippa Langley on Richard III is like Shelby Foote on Robert E Lee.
Medieval English kings usually killed any potential rival claimants, if they could. I’m trying to think an exception between William the Conqueror and William of Orange
debbie
@NotMax:
And then he got grief for not being diverse enough (not casting any dark-skinned Latinex) for In the Heights!
mrmoshpotato
Response to the article
sab
Constance Grady. The next generation’s Caitlyn Flanagan.
Woodrow/asim
@Betty Cracker: Honestly — and this is a stain on my anger blinding me — I missed it. I even did a text search, thinking no one could write a story like this and not mention her TERFdom!
So that’s on me, and thank you for nudging me on it!
James E Powell
@Cacti:
Whose cohort are you talking about?
dmsilev
@sdhays: People did “Oh the significance of it all!” thumb-sucking pieces on Game of Thrones as well, and that was an even more expensive-to-access show. At least for Ted Lasso, you can do the “sign up for a month, binge-watch, and then cancel” dance without any real hassle.
Benw
My newly 12 yo daughter got her first full Pfizer dose today!!!!!!
James E Powell
@Baud:
I’m four episodes in and I’m still trying to figure who is who and what their respective goals are.
zhena gogolia
@dmsilev: did any young people ever watch Ted lasso?
Baud
@Benw: ?
zhena gogolia
@Benw: ?
Omnes Omnibus
@James E Powell: Yeah, I saw it. But it’s as convincing as Weir’s “It was probably him because he can’t be ruled out” approach. Besides, stained glass never lies.
Mike in NC
Vox is a load of crap.
Cacti
Also too, as Baud mentioned, the millennials are getting on into their early 40s now.
Aren’t they getting a little old to be so tragically hip?
zhena gogolia
@Mike in NC: aja Romano is good
Cacti
@James E Powell: The cohort that protest voted for Jill Stein and Gary Johnson, because “Don’t threaten me with the Supreme Court!”.
sab
@zhena gogolia: When I was about twelve I realized the next millenium would start in 2000. I thought that it was really cool that I might live to see it, but personally a shame that I would be too old to really enjoy it. ( Born 1954)
germy
@Cacti:
I never thought of them as serious candidates. I sort of ranked them with Marianne Williamson.
mrmoshpotato
@Benw:
Hooray! Six weeks until fully vaccinated!
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Who is the “you” and the “your” referring to in your original comment. And shouldn’t you be starting to complain about the existence of the Winter Olympics soon?
Ken
Oh, like those ever influenced people’s politics. Stick to proven* sociological factors, like streaming video shows, fantasy novels, and bowling.
* Word used incorrectly.
sab
@mrmoshpotato: YAY! My kids are old, so they’ve had theirs. But I sure can relate to your relief.
Oops. Responding to you responding to Benw, but still yay! ( I was surprised you had a twelve year old.) Benw YAY!
Ken
You’re arguably ahead of the author at the same point in the series, then.
Woodrow/asim
…come on, gang. :) I do mean when Hamilton first hit Broadway.
But if we’re going to go Full Pedant: I believe Ishmael Reed wrote his first criticism of Hamilton for Counterpunch when it was still at the Public Theater; it got published around the same time it moved to Broadway. That criticism was the basis for his response play The Haunting of Lin-Manuel Miranda, which is likely the biggest single effort to critique Hamilton, at least that I’m aware of.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: The Bern Feeler cohort, old fellow.
You remember?
The ones booing on the floor of the Democratic convention.
Bobby Thomson
Knowing the principals behind it, why?
WhatsMyNym
@Baud:
I’ve enjoyed it overall. Hope they continue with it.
Haven’t read the books.
Another Scott
My state senator’s comments on the new Virginia districts.
Short thread.
Unfortunately, this redistricting process – not independent, veto-able by the GQP, thrown to the GOP-dominated state supreme court when there’s no consensus – is part of the state constitution for now and we’re stuck with it (until it can be changed)…
Grr…
Cheers,
Scott.
Ken
Across the internet, a hundred pedants suddenly alert, like lions when a baby wildebeest wobbles past…
sab
@Bobby Thomson: I mostly like their content.
Bobby Thomson
@Cacti: If AHS: Cult is to be believed, they get theirs
debbie
@Another Scott:
It’s not going much better here in Ohio.
Baud
My takeaway from this Vox piece (or at least the excerpt) is that it is further confirmation that any piece of work that bashes Democrats, no matter how ludicrious its thesis, is automatically treated by the media as a legitimate point of view worthy of respect and dissemination.
Bobby Thomson
@Ken: seems too obvious. I’m not taking the bait
Suzanne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t think this is implausible. I think popular culture is far more influential than we give it credit for. It’s not just a mirror.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Oh, I get it. The Biden-Ted Lasso link is dumber than you think.
Ted Lasso is portrayed by Jason Sudeikis who used to do a killer Biden impersonation on SNL.
That’s the link.
Cacti
@Another Scott: Well, on the bright side, you won’t have to worry about reading dangerous books from black authors.
sab
@Ken: This wildebeest may wobble but she sure isn’t a baby.
sab
@Ken: Jeez. I bet if I had left it as is no one would have noticed.
Sure Lurkalot
@Benw: Happy Birthday and happy day for the tween and the fam!
danielx
@Cacti:
Being tragically hip never gets old; ask any of its practitioners.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
DougJ writing for Vox now?
Brachiator
I saw the article and passed it by. I mainly comment on it here to note what a bunch of bullshit it is.
I was thinking about the Harry Potter books the other day, and noted that their legacy has been tarnished because some people want to cancel the shit out of JK Rowling.
But the main thing about the Potter novels is that they are for kids and spurred a generation to read and to savor fiction. The novels also transformed the publishing industry. At one time readers had to wait months for the American publisher, who had their own deal, to publish the novels here long after they were available in the UK. Kids and their parents said “fuck that shit” and ordered directly from Amazon UK. Eventually the novels were simultaneously available here and in the UK.
I also remember that kids discovered the novels independent of official gate keepers who usually approved of, reviewed and made sure that children’s novels got into libraries and bookstores. Kids create their own society, and knowledge of Harry Potter lore became like knowing the password to the speakeasy of the world of children.
I remember when the 3rd novel was released seeing two sisters sitting in a coffee shop, maybe a few years apart in age, each with her own copy, engrossed in the text like scholars investigating a secret, mystical text.
Are the Potter novels out of date and can we blame Obama? I have no fucking idea and don’t much care. I suspect that kids are still discovering the reveling in the Potter novels. They still want to be in the room where it happens in the Chamber of Secrets.
ETA: Was anything, anything, anything at all added to the cultural legacy of the US or the world by Trump inspired …. and I use the term loosely … artists?
sab
WaterGirl came up with some great Christmas pie visuals. I peeked mostly, and a good thing because the underlying comments were good. But the pie filter has yummy visuals.
guachi
Harry Potter is still very popular. It’s largely in the hands of Warner with movies and licensing of the movies. For example, Lego restarted HP sets in 2018 after stopping them at the time of the final HP movie. The sets have been wildly popular, far exceeding Lego’s expectations. So popular that the Theme is now a permanent theme with sets every year since 2018.
mrmoshpotato
@Ken:
LOL! I know why!
Baud
@WhatsMyNym: It apparently set streaming viewship records, so I’m sure there will at least be a second season (at which point people can complain about it and extrapolate what it means for Biden and the Dems).
Another Scott
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oooh! Nominated!
Cheers,
Scott.
Cacti
Poor JK Rowling. How hard it must be to sit atop her millions and punch down at transfolk.
SiubhanDuinne
GHISLANE MAXWELL guilty in 5 (of 6) counts.
Good.
sab
@SiubhanDuinne: Which count didn’t she do?
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Not to laugh at a person’s bad luck, but ha ha ha.
Matt McIrvin
@zhena gogolia: A little while back there was some Twitter thread about “what celebrity will you not be surprised when it turns out they’re CIA?” and about half of the people in the thread said “Lin-Manuel Miranda.”
I don’t know either. I think it’s that he’s just a little too sunny and earnest.
Benw
@mrmoshpotato: @sab: YAY. It ‘s such a relief to get the first shot and it will be a huge relief when she’s fully vaxxed!!
Quencher
@sab:
Hamilton is a mediocre musical celebrating a slave owner and slave trader.
So, yeah, pretty cringe.
trollhattan
Meanwhile, if you find yourself leaving California for Iowa, you’re doing it wrong.
OTOH am not unhappy he’s two time zones away and one would guess, headed for club fed.
Caphilldcne
@Barry: thank you I too support the Liver People. Also I totally cracked up reading that!
Betty Cracker
@germy: Ya think? I’ll have no truck with the Bernie cult nonsense, but yeah.
sab
@Cacti: JK Rowling’s books helped my trans niece survive her childhood. JK Rowling should have stayed off twitter.
smith
@Brachiator: As appalling as Rowling’s intolerance is, as I recall, the books themselves include a clear anti-racist and anti-fascist message.
Baud
@sab:
Sometimes you want rich people to just enjoy their money.
Benw
@Sure Lurkalot: Thanks, yo!
Matt McIrvin
@Brachiator:
Based just on social-media buzz, it’s 100% this. Rowling is so awful these days, and so actively destructive now with her anti-trans activism, that it’s made people go back over the books with a microscope looking at everything questionable in them and decide they really always sucked and people were stupid to like them.
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne:
“Poor little rich girl.”
What a twisted, twisted story. Those girls, now women, will never get their stolen lives back but at least they get some measure of justice.
sab
@Quencher: Hamilton was a slave trader?! Really?!
debbie
From NBC News:
World is getting too crazy.
sab
@Baud: Yep.
HeleninEire
@SiubhanDuinne: She needs to narc on every single one of the men.
Ohio Mom
@Central Planning:
That’s me: I have no idea who Ted Lasso is and have been putting off goggling him on the chance/my wish that he soon becomes irrrlevant.
Really feeling like I’m old today.
Brachiator
@Cacti:
JK Rowling may be a bad person because of her views. The novels are great children’s literature.
Baud
@debbie: I blame Biden and his supply chain problems.
sab
@debbie: I am also thankful the driver is safe. I know a lot of UPS drivers. It kind of sucks. I’d hate for one of them to be hurt or die for somebody else’s packages.
Wag
@Ken:
I miss those days.
trollhattan
@debbie:
If this were a caper flick they had inside help and knew the truck, contents and order in which said contents were loaded.
If it’s a “dudes doing a dumb thing” they picked a random truck and have themselves a yuge supply of Best Foods mayonnaise to unload.
HeleninEire
@Baud: Yeah that was the fastest and weirdest transition from “Yeah, you are the best…and how great are you?” to “WTF asshole?”
debbie
@sab:
There was a report on local news about the increasing brazenness of crimes committed here. I hope that highjacking isn’t a harbinger of what’s to come.
MisterForkbeard
@Baud: Bashing Hillary is HUGE amongst people under 25, I’ve seen.
Don’t you understand how awful and corporate and awful and stupid and awful and corrupt she was? She just was, okay? And she let Trump win, and Democrats let Trump win, and that’s why Democrats are just as bad as Republicans.
Cacti
@Brachiator: Ezra Pound was one of the most important literary figures of the 20th century.
And also an unrepentant fascist mouthpiece and anti-semite.
He’s remembered today for both.
debbie
@trollhattan:
Oh, man, if I had pulled that crime and found out all I’d stolen was boxes and boxes of Miracle Whip, I’d do myself in.
zhena gogolia
@Ohio Mom: don’t!
Ohio Mom
I think Ruckus is in some level of contact with Mnemosyne.
When Ohio Dad and I talk about what trips we might take one day and he pushes for Southern California, I always imagine a meet-up where I get to tell her how much I appreciated her comments, way back when.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Henry III let Louis I scamper back to France. Of course Louis got out of it on the technicality that the English wanted to pretend they didn’t crown a Capet king of England out of shear hatred of King John lol
Baud
@MisterForkbeard: Lucky for them, there is a political party in this country that will cater to their hate. They are no concern of mine.
Brachiator
@Cacti:
The only artist in the history of the world with an unblemished record is Anonymous.
germy
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ohio Mom: that’s one of the funny things about those clips, and from other bits I’m seeing around twitter, this writer uses a whole lot niche pop-culture– with the exception of Harry Potter– to describe “America’s popular imagination”. I loved Parks and Rec, but I think it got a fraction of the viewership of /googles top TV shows of 2013-14, sticks to sitcoms/ the Big Bang Theory, Modern Family, How I Met Your Mother and (God help America) Two and a Half Men. PnR doesn’t even make the top 25.
MisterForkbeard
@debbie: Okay, but can Republicans blame this on a California proposition? Because literally every time there’s a theft here, they yell about the proposition that “made crime legal”. Sigh.
Woodrow/asim
@sab: Yes, best evidence is that Hamilton dealt with slaves as part of his work before coming to what we now call America’s mainland. Not a direct trader, but certainly involved with the trade on a direct level.
That’s without a whole lot of connections to slavery in who he knew and was related to, which lead to some of what we’d, today, call flip-flops in his work engaging slavery as an evil. Here’s a good, if in-depth, article on the topic: https://www.sc.edu/uofsc/posts/2021/03/conversation_hamilton_slavery.php
Some of the confusion, I recall, for the play is that the book Miranda read on Hamilton that kick-started his interest doesn’t mention some of these ties. Moreover, Miranda chose to eliminate the one song that directly addresses slavery in Hamilton, Cabinet Battle #3, before going to Broadway (which didn’t help critical concerns on his portrayal of this topic). Here’s a bit of it, but it’s worth reading the linked lyrics and/or finding a bootleg of it if you’re interested in the show and how it evolved:
(I mean, say what you will about Lin-Manuel, but he, at one point, was willing to go there when it came to Jefferson.
Ruckus
@Central Planning:
I’m not in a diner, I did, once upon a time live in a small town in Ohio, I’ve never seen Ted Lasso, and what in the hell does Ted Lasso have to do with Joe Biden?
I’m saying I agree, WTELF?
trollhattan
@debbie:
Basically, we transition from “Ocean’s 11” to “Reno 9-11” and the script writes itself. :-)
frosty
@schrodingers_cat: @Baud: @sab: Include me in the Mnemosyne greeting too. Maybe just as “a bunch of jackals say hi”
Old School
@Brachiator:
Joe Klein?
Brachiator
@Quencher:
Tell us how you feel about 1776.
NotMax
@Ken
Can’t really be pedantic about it as 12 is a prime age for mistaken assumptions.
;)
Ohio Mom
@Benw: Congrats! I imagine it’s a great relief.
Ohio Son gets his booster tomorrow, then we’re all up to date.
trollhattan
@Ruckus:
Trying to connect the dots from pop culture and the entertainment biz in general, to the current “powers that be” and the president specifically, is fraught. So and so not getting a Grammy nom doesn’t tell you jack squat about anything, beyond the Grammys and so and so.
“Box Office for ‘Spiderman: Far from Home’ reveals new fractures in already fragile Biden coalition.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Woodrow/asim: The only founding father-ish person with a really good record on both slavery and women’s rights was Burr.
Omnes Omnibus
@Quencher: Arglebargle, is that you?
jackmac
Saw the headline and immediately thought “Sounds like nonsense from someone just trying to be contrary and get some clicks. I’m going to skip it.”
There’s a backlash against Ted Lasso? Why can’t we just have and enjoy nice things without some assholes putting poop in the punch bowl?
Betty
@Citizen Alan: Not to worry. This is being savaged on Twitter, here and over at Lawyers, Guns and Money.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@debbie:
Just an update of Butch Cassidy robbing train transports and Alvin Karpis knocking over post offices.
Baud
@Betty: That good to hear. I hope we cancel the author.
schrodingers_cat
@sab: Your opinion counts with me.
Omnes Omnibus
Maxwell found guilty. https://twitter.com/bnonews/status/1476313767872978950?s=21
schrodingers_cat
Constance Grady sounds like a character from P. G. Wodehouse, that poor Gussie Finknottle has gotten engaged to.
Ruckus
@smith:
My life is shit, and it’s somebody else’s fault! I’ve never done anything wrong ever! Probably Hillary’s!
Fixed that for you….
sab
@Woodrow/asim: Hamilton at 16, dependent on his sponsors, living parentless in the Caribbean, hoping for a scholarship, was peripherally involved in the slave trade as part of the business he was given as a 16 year old accountant/ junior factor. Hamilton at age 25 and older was always vehemently abolitionist.
Jeez. I would like to have seen any jackal have taken as principled a stance as early as he did, and as much agaimst the business interests of his time.
Ohio Mom
@zhena gogolia: That’s not a comment on Ted Lasso, it’s a comment about my exhaustion about keeping up with pop culture. And how surprised I am by that exhaustion.
Patricia Kayden
sab
@Woodrow/asim: Jefferson, his whole life, owned and was willing to own slaves, even those he knew were his own children.
prostratedragon
The heartbreak of intellectual hernia … (regarding the cited article)
Dennis
@Central Planning: I got tired of Ted Lasso, the character, in the second season, but I can’t get enough Roy Kent.
JimV
I’m just seeing Parks and Rec on reruns. Lays it on a bit too thick, but has some good moments. My nephews liked it and still quote it. (“This is the food my food eats.”)
germy
@Patricia Kayden:
So Rogan walks the walk! I thought he was like those fox news people, the fully vaccinated ones who tell the rubes what they want to hear.
frosty
@Another Scott: I understand I may be stepping on your brand, but it appears to me that “Cheers” may be superfluous here and the previous line would be a suitable salutation for your post.
SpaceUnit
If there’s a backlash against Hamilton, Harry Potter or Parks and Recreation, I’m sure it stems in part from the degree to which outlets such as Vox spent slobbering over them in the first place.
This is like Tiger Beat turning on One Direction.
Dennis
@sab: Miranda can’t please everybody. Check out all the complaints about lack of black representation in “In the Heights”, a movie specifically about the Latino experience in New York.
Probably all the black and Latino actors and singers in Hamilton and In the Heights are grateful for the work, though.
guachi
@germy: Maybe Rogan is vaccinated but just pretends he isn’t?
Though Rogan doesn’t strike me as smart enough to do that.
HeleninEire
@JimV: Be sure to see the one where Patton Oswalt guest stars. The entire speech (I don’t wanna spoil it) is ad-libbed.
Captain C
@hueyplong: But that party apparently has no agency. Everything they do is actually the Democrats’ fault, especially the things that Dema actively opposed.
Starfish
Her attack on Hillary Clinton is cringy girlboss nonsense where women can only be powerful if they are in conflict with one another.
Folks turned on Miranda after In the Heights excluded Afro Caribbean people.
This inclination to piss in everyone else’s Wheaties is getting old.
Brachiator
@Woodrow/asim:
I remember when a number of black intellectuals and African American literature professors shit all over Reed’s novel “Mumbo Jumbo” for being too lightweight, too humorous, and not worthy to be important to The Struggle.
glc
Tastes vary, apparently.
Who knew?
Barbara
@trollhattan:
Headed for the closest federal prison that conducts psych evaluations.
NotMax
Been meaning to ask and this seems like a good thread in which to do so; anyone watched The Great on Hulu? I have not but am mildly curious as to whether it’s satire worth a go or is sophomoric pap.
debbie
@Patricia Kayden:
Yay!
Another Scott
@frosty: Actually, that’s helpful. There are too many times when “Cheers” isn’t appropriate, but “Regards” or “Best” or whatever doesn’t work either.
Grr… might!
;-)
Thanks!
Cheers,
Scott.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Another Scott: “Yours in savage indignation”?
debbie
@Dennis:
That’s what this country has come to: Nothing is ever enough.
schrodingers_cat
@Ohio Mom: I am always out of sync of whatever is in at the moment. Earlier it was because I was too busy. Then I didn’t have cable, because I couldn’t get it where I lived. Being an immigrant, I don’t always get the references especially to sports stuff and older TV shows. Its fun to discover stuff at my own pace and own time.
Cheryl from Maryland
Re-watching “The Wild Wild West, which was a catnip for me as a child after school. Most episodes of “The Wild Wild West” involve former Confederates trying to overthrow President Grant and getting beat up and sent back into looser-dom by James West and Artemus Gordon, which I now find soothing to my soul.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Up vote!
sab
@NotMax: You missed the culture thing this weekend. Everyone at the tail end of the thread loved “Great” at an enthusiasm level that makes me want to subscribe to whatever service.
Culture thing is BG inChi, which I love. BG as I remember was first to mention Great (very enthusiastically) .
zhena gogolia
@Dennis: That’s what I keep coming back to. Who else is centering highly popular musicals on non-white performers?
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: BGinChi likes it. A former student told me some of what goes on in it and it sounded like sophomoric pap to me, kind of a ripoff of Sofia Coppola’s Marie Antoinette.
Another Scott
Too many people don’t remember the other side has/had people like Tom DeLay.
This stuff is deadly serious, and we know that they have treated it that way for decades. We know what would be happening if the situations were reversed.
Fighting for every seat is important, and we don’t need to apologize for it.
(via eclecticbrotha)
Cheers,
Scott.
frosty
@Another Scott: Cool! A well-thought out answer to a comment of mine that should have had snark tags.
I like the idea of alternating between Cheers! and Grr… Should cover almost everything.
Dan B
@SpaceUnit: There’s a line in Don’t Look Up for you.
JMS
I was in my 20s when Titanic came out. One of my work colleagues loved the movie and went to see it multiple times, gushed over it etc. Then Titanic fatigue set in. One day I heard her saying it was overrated and no big deal. I thought she felt pressured because that’s what all the cool kids were starting to say. It’s like that. Everyone wants to appear cool, and these are examples of things that are overexposed or don’t fit the current zeitgeist. It’s a stretch to call it political or tie any of them to Hillary Clinton(!)
On a side note I’m curious how many of you actually know gen z ers well. Those would be my kids, so I learn about some things whether I want to or not. From their perspective, Harry Potter is elementary school, Hamilton is middle school, and Parks and Rec reruns on Netflix is early high school, so all are cringe because they remind them of being younger and none are political.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Do you watch Peaky Blinders? I have watched one season so far. So far I love it. It has great music among other things.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
This is the NPR interview I listened to about In the Heights’s lack of diversity. I don’t usually yell at my radio when culture is being discussed, but it was appropriate to make a one-time exception. (There’s both a transcript and audio clip at the link.
ETA: From the link:
Like I said, nothing is ever enough.
sab
@Cheryl from Maryland: Mom would not even let us watch that show. She was vehement. It made her nuts. She said too violent, but I think she also had a visceral reaction to Confederates. Her oldest great uncle died at age 19 defending the Union and Pennsylvania. We moved to Kentucky and then Florida, but her feelings about the Confederacy were always visceral and hostile.
Old Dan and Little Ann
True story. 3 people in a row spun $1.00 on The Price is Right. Then the first lady spun $1.00 again to win 20 grand! The second lady spinner hit $.05 for a cool 10 grand. Biden’s inflation is gonna fuckin’ bankrupt The Price is Right!
Another Scott
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: [ snort! ]
Grr…,
Scott.
schrodingers_cat
@Another Scott: The gerrymandering doom posting is the worst, acts like its own version of voter suppression. If we are doomed anyway than why even try.
dmsilev
@debbie:
I remember reading a story of a daring diamond heist. Thieves tracked the truck with the goods, hit it, and made away with the loot. The only problem was that the diamonds in question were industrial-grade powder and grit, used to coat drill bits and things like that. Not exactly the haul they were expecting…
Patricia Kayden
germy
debbie
@Another Scott:
The Ohio Supreme Court heard arguments on redistricting earlier this week. Even the Chief Justice (a moderate Republican) seemed skeptical of the GOP attorney’s insistence that the map could have been a lot worse. The voting here generally runs 54% to 46% for Republicans, while the new map will result in 80% to 20% for Republicans. So sure, it could be worse (and knowing these assholes, they wanted it to be worse), but isn’t it already bad enough?
debbie
@germy:
Apparently, he was his usual self. From the replies:
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
Well, there is some veiled antisemitism and Harry basically becomes a cop at the end, doesn’t he?
Ruckus
@sab:
Born 1954
A mere child as it were…… And welcome to the world of old farts.
germy
@debbie:
So disgusting.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
WTAF?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Another Scott:
Also too, in oral arguments with the Ohio Supreme Court, I read that that a Justice who is considered a “swing” justice was expressing disapproval of the Republican gerrymandered map that was recently passed
germy
@SiubhanDuinne:
I guess they wanted an expert on the subject.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
No. Neither of them added even a minute iota of culture to the world. When all is said and done the the books are totaled up they may end up with a negative score.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): My usual caveat about relying on what is said at oral arguments as a indicator of potential results.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@germy:
Why was he even interviewed? Didn’t the Maxwell trial happen in the UK? Dersh is an American lawyer
gwangung
@debbie: I think what matters more is that Leon is essentially correct. And this particular criticism was foreseeable ahead of time. Speaking as a member. of a marginalized group that has gotten a chance or two to be at the front of the line.
trollhattan
@Patricia Kayden:
Joe Rogan and sold-out in Canada just seem like a bad fit.
germy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
An international man of mystery.
He has many important things to say about events around the world. (At least interviewers think he does.) You should have heard him after Desmond Tutu died.
apocalipstick
@sab: Ron Swanson is neither slimy nor cynical. He is an incurable romantic.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I am pretty sure New York is in the US.
trollhattan
@germy:
Find myself suddenly fixated on how one pronounces Caoilfhionn.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I thought her trial was in the UK
Omnes Omnibus
@trollhattan: Bob.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: before I clicked up I think you were making some kind of Arnold Schwarzenegger reference
debbie
@gwangung:
Leon made it pretty personal. Miranda’s casting for Hamilton was much more diverse than a lot of white people would have liked, so it’s not like he’s ignorant. I don’t disagree with what she’s saying in general, but I thought specifically slagging Miranda like she did was a bit much.
L85NJGT
You should probably avoid Politico’s fluff piece on Lawrence O’Donnell being Big Media’s Biden whisperer.
Anyway
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
??? Manhattan court. Federal jury
RaflW
On the same day Vox published that drivel, they also ran a piece called “Just how much is Trump’s judiciary sabotaging the Biden presidency?”
Do editors at Vox even talk to each other?
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
Fraught?
I go just a bit farther than that and say it is 100% Bull and Shit.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
TBF, it’s a very blatantly bad gerrymander, but point taken
Ken
@trollhattan: Insert obligatory “Throatwarbler Mangrove” reference.
Cameron
@trollhattan: With a story like that, he’s more likely to wind up in Happy Ranch.
Kalakal
@James E Powell:
A couple of exceptions
Stephen was captured by Matildas forces in 1141. He was kept alive and later released in a prisoner exchange. Mind you the Anarchy was weird
Henry VI was held prisoner by Edward IV in the tower of London between 1465 and 1470 before being restored to the throne. To be fair after being recaptured in 1471 he was murdered
Brachiator
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I don’t know about the antisemitism, veiled or otherwise.
Do you mean that Harry becomes a cop like Kamala Harris was a cop?
Woodrow/asim
@sab:Hamilton was working on slave trades well past the Revolution:
This, according to this source, was on behalf of his sister-in-law, Yes That Angelica. I linked an overview on this in my previous post, which included this overview on why Hamilton might have engaged in such acts that supported slave owners:
I don’t mean to turn this into an “is Hamilton an evil slaver” debate, because I know that will go nowhere.
What I will say is this. Almost all the Founders were deeply invested in their…money, let’s say. As much as Hamiliton worte about the evils of slavery, so too did Jefferson. Yet: we know how far that got when it came to the reality of what he did, on his and to what was then called “his property” — people we know did not deserve that fate.
It is not beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Hamilton’s words, and indeed even his membership in an Abolitionist society, was not met by him fighting on all fronts to resist engaging in working the slave trade in indirect, but real, ways. That he said one thing, but did another, is very much of a piece with the Founders as a group, and is not something I think worth avoiding raising as real topics to debate and understand.
The 3/5ths Compromise makes a lot more sense, I think, when you look at the Founders as trapped between the enormous wealth of chattel slavery, and the desires for freedom as an abstract concept.
gwangung
@debbie: Given that Leon was specifically talking bout In the Heights, I don’t think Hamilton actions are that germane to bring up.
Jinchi
Who watched Forrest Gump and thought of Newt Gingrich?
Matt McIrvin
@smith:
They do. The metaphor was not lost on kids, either, from what I heard.
If you go looking, you can find objectionable things in them. The goblins of Gringotts resemble old antisemitic stereotypes. Rowling seems to have a horror of fat people that comes up a lot. The whole “but house-elves are a race who WANT to be slaves” thread in the fourth book was kind of infuriating, though Rowling came back to that and fixed it a bit in the later books.
People who are upset at Rowling have taken all that and woven it into a whole thesis of “Harry Potter wasn’t actually about anti-fascism or anti-racism at all, it was just English class prejudice in disguise”. But I don’t really buy it. I do think there’s an ethical problem right now in that anything that funnels money to Rowling is actively funding her harmful activity against trans people.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kalakal: Ned learned his lesson.
ETA: I still say Buckingham did it.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
No, he literally becomes a cop, called an “auror” or something
The banker goblins
Woodrow/asim
Miranda HIMSELF said there’s a dialogue to be had, in the very quote. I think it’s worth letting the people who are impacted by Lin-Manuel’s choices — or lack thereof — have that damn discussion, in public and private.
See, what people miss is that this isn’t the first time Lin-Manuel has pulled this. He did it, from what I understand, with the Broadway show. We’re discussing right now some of the flaws in Hamilton around race presentations (just because you put Black and Brown bodies on a stage, doesn’t mean their stories are being told!) For him to repeat the same issues the play had, with the movie?
That’s like stomping on someone’s toe for the 3rd time. You’d expect an angry reaction, a “hey? why are we talking about this AGAIN” reaction.
Miranda’s an adult. If he loves The Heights as much as he says he does, he can talk to the people within it in an honest and real way. He has a lot more power in this, than the people raising their criticisms, after all.
Brachiator
@Jinchi:
I didn’t like Forrest Gump. I thought it was phony. But I never thought of Newt Gingrich.
And I think I pointedly later ignored any politically tinged criticism of the movie.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: too violent for me
johnnybuck
Vox is like, soooo 2006.
Woodrow/asim
I found out about it from a crossover fan fic, believe it or not. That BLEW MY MIND when I checked with folx and found out the fic, if anything, downplayed it.
I think people miss how horrific some folx will find that kind of content.
zhena gogolia
@debbie: Nope. A non-white director, non-white cast, but it’s going down in history as the worst thing evah. Makes me sad.
Matt McIrvin
@trollhattan:
You’re DougJ in disguise, right?
sab
@Ruckus: Get off my lawn you Californian!
Citizen Alan
@Woodrow/asim:
Which doesn’t mean as much for me as it used to. Honestly, the idea that a space alien could come to Earth, possess godlike superpowers, and use them primarily as a costumed crime fighter is less implausible to me than the idea that someone raised from infancy by Kansas farmers would be so altruistic and egalitarian. I would expect Superman in 2021 to be using his powers to singlehandedly build Trump’s Wall.
Brachiator
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
RE: Do you mean that Harry becomes a cop like Kamala Harris was a cop?
So it is like Kamala was a cop.
How is this a bad thing?
The goblin thing is a stretch. I always thought they were Scottish.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Woodrow/asim:
@Matt McIrvin:
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. IIRC from cultural osmosis, Hermonie is one of the few to speak up about the house elves being slaves and I think she was ridiculed for it or at least not taken seriously by the other characters. Her being the resident know-it-all granola cruncher goody-goody, it kind of comes across like we the audience aren’t supposed think the elves are slaves
Dan B
@Benw: Yay for relief! Even though there’s no immunity yet I felt huge relief at my first shot. It felt like the first glimmer of light before dawn or the tinge of warmth before spring.
Ruckus
@sab:
I don’t even know where your lawn is, I’m not standing on A lawn at the moment (nor have I been for over 4 hrs) and right now I’m not even standing outside because it’s raining……
Kalakal
@Omnes Omnibus: Officially, poor Henry died of “melancholy”, which was to the Middle Ages what gravity is to modern Russians. In this case melancholy seems to have used a mace.
louc
Honestly, I thought the second season of Ted Lasso was better than the first. My sister actually loved the Beard episode, but she’s a Gen-Xer who loved the movie that inspired it, After Hours.
I fell in love with Hamilton after I saw it on Disney+ and then read all the critiques of it that came out at the same time as the musical. @Woodrow/asim the song Cabinet Battle 3 is in the official soundtrack and the Mixtape version.
Roger Moore
@WhatsMyNym:
I have read most of the books, but I gave up when the author got seriously bogged in the later books. Much like ASOIAF, the author gradually introduced more and more POV characters, who split up into more and more groups, and the books slowed to a crawl as he had to update the progress for each group. It was the kind of series where you felt like you needed to go back and reread the series so far when a new book came out, and that got more and more painful until I decided I wasn’t going to read any more until the series was finished. When it actually was finished, I just couldn’t bring myself to read the whole thing.
That said, I feel as if the TV series is doing a decent job of adaptation. They’ve made one or two decisions I really hate and a few more that seem like they’re setting up landmines for later, but they’ve also done some things better than the books. It will be interesting to see how they manage going forward. It’s a big series, and it’s anyone’s guess if they’ll manage to keep it going to the finish.
Darkrose
@Dennis: In the Heights is about the Dominican-American community. Many Dominicans are obviously of African descent, just like the residents of the other half of the island in Haiti. Making a movie about the Dominican community in New York and only showing the light-skinned people ones is leaving out the reality of that community. LMM could have and should have done better.
Served
@debbie: big yikes. “Those people should just be happy with what they get!”
Washington Heights has a huge Afrolatino population, and they’re right to be mad at not being a part of his “love letter” to the neighborhood.
Omnes Omnibus
@Woodrow/asim: Was Hamilton an attempt to tell black or brown stories though? I thought that having obviously white historical figures played by nonwhite actors was a move to show the universality of the themes and actions. I have no familiarity with In The Heights, so I have nothing to say about it.
Citizen Alan
@Cacti: That, as much as anything, is why I will hate Bernie and his cultists forever. The Clinton campaign picked delegates to the Convention based on “who would show the best possible face of the Democratic Party going into the general election” while the Sanders campaign picked them on the basis of “who would be willing to boo the nominee every single time her name was mentioned, even when it was by St. Bernie himself.” They ensured that the primary media story coming out of the convention was about how divided the Dems were and how angry younger voters were about how “Hillary cheated Bernie out of the nomination.” I will hate them from beyond the grave.
Ruckus
@Kalakal:
Wasn’t melancholy the third son of King what’s his name?
Omnes Omnibus
@Kalakal: Being hit by a mace would make me sad as well.
Jinchi
And the way it’s presented, all of the house elves (save Dobby) are actually quite content with their lot and seem to consider her efforts silly.
Ksmiami
@sab: Hamilton enabled commerce and the growth of cities in America. We would be a very different nation had he been an early President.
sab
@Ruckus: Congrats on your rain.
artem1s
Srsly? Let’s just have another Benghazi hearing or write another article about HER EMAILS while we’re at it. Yes, a woman is going to make a run at the WH in 4 or 8 years. AND she’s a POC without a penis! Do you really have to start giving aggrieved misogynistic white boys cover for why they won’t vote for Biden/Harris or Harris/xxxx. Isn’t CRT enough? Damn.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
No, I wouldn’t say so. Kamala Harris is aware of the problems with police departments and their internal cultures, I’d say. She’s actually progressive imo.
I suppose, given that it’s a series about fighting racist and fascist power structures, it can come across as tone deaf making your MC and freedom fighter a cop
Kalakal
@Ruckus: That’s right , made Duke of Lachrimosa and father of King Imbroglio the muddled
trollhattan
@Matt McIrvin:
Genuinely flattered by the comparison! Alas, I’m no NYT Pitchbot, just a humble blog commenter.
Roger Moore
@NotMax:
12 is absolutely not prime anything. 11 is prime and 13 is prime, but 12 is highly composite. /s
trollhattan
@sab: Can I just pile on how great it is that for the first time in two years, California isn’t continuously on fire? Actually trending toward my, “Sombitchin’ rain, when will it stop?” mode, but then remember what things were like at the beginning of the month. (We went from something like 17% of average snowpack for the date to 158% last midnight.) Not out of the woods yet, but we can see some unburnt woods from here.
Matt McIrvin
@Woodrow/asim: I thought “Tick Tick… Boom” was kind of bad, but I blame its late author/protagonist the Rent guy for that…
Ruckus
@sab:
Thank You!
I’m not sure it’s my rain but still, I’ll take what I can get. And I am sharing it with a few million friends….
Ruckus
@Kalakal:
OK, I laughed out loud at that!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Roger Moore:
The other thing about ASOIAF, is that Martin had never wrote long-form fiction like it before. He had only done tv scripts, short stories, and novellas
Matt McIrvin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Until this latest chapter in her life, I always thought of Rowling as someone who could gracefully take these kinds of criticisms and learn from them.
Somehow, trans rights was the thing that drove her around the bend. She couldn’t not double down on that. And the odd thing is, all this doesn’t even come from a criticism of her work. Ultimately, as far as I can tell, the whole bizarre British cultural transphobia explosion of the past few years comes from reaction to a criticism of Graham Linehan’s work. Why that? Just why?
The whole TERF notion of trans women as the vanguard of a male invasion of women’s spaces seems to be part of it, but there are aspects I don’t understand.
ETtheLibrarian
I read that article earlier and it sort of pissed me off. Mostly because this always happens. Things that are 5,10, 20 are always end up dorky and uncool at some point sometimes there is nothing deep about it. Sometimes they come back in part to various levels of success. This is the case with fashion where old things always circle back. Or when the young ones hear a remake of an older song and always seem surprised that someone got there first. You can see it with people get to the nostalgia age – they are too old to be young and not always mentally ready for the what comes next. And cultural writers always seem to forget it (or it doesn’t fit into their narrative) even while they acknowledge it.
The Hamilton thing bothers me a bit. Sure it is of its time period and parts may not age well, but Miranda keyed in on something he was the only person to see, and he wanted to flesh it out and ran with it. The story he put out is the one that came out in the framework he wanted to use – the musical which is clearly the art form he loves (he didn’t write a play he wrote a musical) using music he loves (rap/show tunes).
If people want to take on slavery and the founding fathers on the Broadway stage through whatever framework they want, they should do that (the founding fathers are a rich trove of drama). Personally, a musical centered around slavery or even touching too much on it, would have been hitting too close to minstrel-ism for me to be comfortable with. But I am not creative and someone with talent could maybe walk that line.
Woodrow/asim
@Omnes Omnibus: Was referring to the discussion of slavery in Hamilton, specifically. No matter the intent of the entire play, that’s a position that really should be engaged directly, given the cast’s makeup.
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
Can’t remember the part of CA you live in but here in eastern LA county, if I could see the mountains 4-5 miles away, they would have snow. And given the temps I’ll bet there will be just a bit more the next time they are visible.
OTOH I do have to wear a rain jacket on my daily 2 mile walk, although I’ve managed to avoid all but extremely lite sprinkles.
Woodrow/asim
You are correct. I forgot that in my mad rush to try to stop writing, sometime this decade. :)
trollhattan
@Ruckus: We’re in Sac Valley.
I’ve been in the LA basin in winter and the San Gabriels covered in snow on a clear day is an amazing thing. (Especially having seen actual yellow air there on prior trips.)
Checked and last year on this date we had received a whopping 2.4 inches of rain that season. This year it’s 14 and counting, average 5.6. Basement sump works!
Jinchi
I don’t get why Harry Potter would be associated with Obama. The last book of the series was published before he was elected and the first five movies were released pre-Obama as well.
prostratedragon
@Omnes Omnibus: Not everyone is.
Omnes Omnibus
@prostratedragon: Clearly not.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@prostratedragon:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Just to clear things up, I wasn’t paying much attention to the trial so I didn’t know where it was
Brachiator
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
RE: So it is like Kamala was a cop.
But the phony ass criticism implied that Kamala Harris could only be authentic if she had been a defense attorney. And that she had to fight the system, not be part of it in any way.
The faux criticism of Harry Potter for being a “cop” is similarly disingenuous bullshit.
Also, this kind of bullshit insists that an imaginary world must only be viewed as an allegory of the real world.
And lastly, imposing this on a children’s novel is ridiculous.
It is on the order of blasting “Green Eggs and Ham” because the characters in the story are not proper vegans.
rikyrah
@The Dangerman:
????
Roger Moore
@Kalakal:
The big exception is that English monarchs have usually been more than fair to their younger siblings, even though those siblings are rival claimants. Even when the younger siblings have shown they aren’t trustworthy (e.g. John rebelling against Richard I) their older siblings have usually refrained from bumping them off. This has been repaid. No younger sibling of an English monarch has been strongly implicated in killing off their older sibling to usurp the crown since Henry I. The closest was Richard III, who didn’t kill off his older brother but does seem to be the prime suspect in the deaths of his nephews.
Benw
@Ohio Mom: thanks! yay for everyone in your fam being fully boostered!
@Dan B: yes!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
I think you’re points are fair and I honestly agree with them. “HP is a cop” was the one argument I felt least strongly about
prostratedragon
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): To be clear, wasn’t thinking of you there. Lived in the place long enough to know what some folk think.
Tony Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Given that racism and fascism are bad things, and the MC in question is the poster boy for opposing and defeating both, surely him joining the Aurors (and eventually becoming the Head Auror, if a pretty shit one) is at the same time, a) what any civilised culture should want to see happen and, b) unexpectedly realistic for a ‘kid’s book’?
Unless we’re supposed to think that Harry should have gone on from vanquishing Voldemort to spearhead a ‘defund the Aurors’ campaign and not rested until the Magical World had no trained law-enforcers at all… for reasons?
Roger Moore
@Matt McIrvin:
I think a lot of what grates about the Harry Potter franchise is what it came close to doing but never quite managed to do. For example, it’s nice that Rowling recognizes that the British isles are a multi-racial, multi-cultural place, but she somehow never managed to make any of her minority characters really important to the plot. Harry had a Chinese-Scottish girlfriend for about half a book, but then they broke up and he eventually found a nice white girl. That was the closest they came to having a minority character who was actually significant.
Similarly, she came close to having the books be really good on LGBTQ+ issues but didn’t manage to do it. Dumbledore was canonically gay, but we only found that out in something Rowling said after the books were out. Similarly, a lot of people read werewolves as a metaphor for being in the closet, but she never followed up on that. I think that last one is why trans people are so angry about her TERFdom. They thought she was on their side, so finding out she isn’t feels like a real betrayal.
JML
I’ve read all of The Wheel of Time (some books of which I loved, some I hated, and some which were padded out so much I wondered if the author had forgotten his own plot) and it’s made the amazon show frustrating. At times it’s been a wonderful interpretation (the Shadar Logoth episode was a highlight for me) and done a lot of things really well. Other times, they’ve changed things so radically (and without me being able to understand the reasons, other than “the producers/writers wanted to”) that I wanted to scream.
I get that to adapt something this big and sprawling there will have to be things cut out, characters combined, plots streamlined or ignored, etc. And in this case, it looks like some changes were made because an actor may have quit late in? But there’s stuff that they just invented out of whole cloth that I just don’t understand, unless it’s the old Hollywood insistence that fantasy books must be improved upon by them because the source material is just silly fantasy novels that need real writers & auteurs to be worthy of film.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Omnes Omnibus: With you there.
Matt McIrvin
@Roger Moore: The treatment of non-British cultures is full of lazy stereotypes too. Wacky-accent dialogue, poorly researched names.
Citizen Alan
@Cacti: Billions, wasn’t it? I’d thought she’d crossed the B marker years ago and was the richest woman in Britain not living in Buckingham Castle.
Miss Bianca
OMFG, I started reading that fucking article this afternoon and almost threw my computer out the window, I was that enraged. Did.not.finish.
Miss Bianca
@Baud:
Me too.
Tehanu
In whose mind? It always amazes me how these people think they can read minds and how totally off they are about everything.
Geminid
@Miss Bianca: I’ve gotten to where I just don’t read opinion pieces any more. I guess I may miss a good one every now and then. But there is plenty of good reporting out there and reading it is a better use of time, I think.
Citizen Alan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
More like the head of the antiterrorism unit assigned to go after the KKK and the Proud Boys. And I am mildly nauseated by the level of “edgy contrarianism for its own sake” it takes to dismiss a character raised for ten years in conditions of horrific deprivation and abuse as “a trust fund jock.”
Citizen Alan
@Brachiator:
I think that comes from the theory that the Goblins are “magical demihuman Jews.” There was also that self-own where people complained that there were no Jewish characters, and JKR pointed to Anthony Goldstein, a character who never had a single line in a 7-book long allegory about the evils of Nazism.
Kalakal
@Roger Moore: Thats true amongst brothers, Richard the III was extremely loyal to his brother, and Henry II was amazingly forgiving of his sons. There was a heck of a lot of cousin on cousin violence. A case of successful usurpation would be Henry IV taking out Richard II with dire consequences for Richard. An unsuccessful case would be Arthur of Brittany trying to oust his uncle John with particularly horrible consequences for Arthur ( John could be a right bastard ). The War of the Roses was a giant family feud with at least 3 kings being murdered by close relatives and at the the end Henry VII really went to town on potential rivals.A very late case would be Mary II deposing her father James but James got out with his skin intact which was nice for James since he’d beheaded his nephew 5 years earlier for trying to overthrow him
Omnes Omnibus
@Kalakal: There is George, Duke of Clarence, to consider. Eddy IV’s younger and Dickie III’s older brother.
Citizen Alan
@Brachiator: Indeed. Harry didn’t just become an Auror, he became the Chief Auror and canonically was credited with reforming what up to that point had been an incredibly corrupt law enforcement organization.
Omnes Omnibus
@Citizen Alan: So… Merrick Garland?
Citizen Alan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
What bothers me about it was that Hermione was ridiculed and treated unseriously by the Author. This highly intelligent young woman was apparently unable to understand that the acronym for the Society for the Promotion of Elvish Welfare was SPEW which sounded ridiculous. Her approach to freeing the Hogwarts house elves was to knit mittens and then hide them everywhere so she could trick the house elves into accepting clothes which she assumed would free them. Only after the series ended was there a throwaway line on Pottermore to the effect of “years later, Hermione became an important Ministry official and greatly improved the lives of house elves.” That is the entirety of JKR’s take on house elves as an allegory about the evils of slavery.
Citizen Alan
@Jinchi: If Obama is responsible for Katrina and 9/11, he can be held responsible for the Harry Potter series retroactively becoming evil.
Citizen Alan
@Roger Moore:
It’s worse than “never following up.” IMO, werewolves were broadly a metaphor for being in the closet but more specifically a metaphor for being HIV positive in a world fully of anti-HIV bigotry. Lycanthropy is a illness that provokes feelings of revulsion in others and can lead to immediately getting fired from your job if your status is discovered. And yet, in the entire series, there are only 2 named werewolves; Remus Lupin, who spends his entire story arc wracked by self-loathing over his condition, and Fenrir Greyback, the werewolf who infected Lupin out of a perverted desire to inflict his condition on children!
Kalakal
@Omnes Omnibus: Good one. I’d forgotten about that reputedly rather unpleasant specimen, Eddy really put with a lot from him before finally deciding enough was enough
Dan B
@Ruckus: No. He was the third son’s puppy. Isn’t it obvious to you?
Ken
@Tony Jay: Well, Harry’s soul was mixed with Voldemort’s for the first eighteen years of his life. Also Harry is technically a revenant. So there’s room for a little uncertainty about his motives in becoming head of the Aurors.
Ken
@Kalakal: Eddy? But Shakespeare said it was hunchbacked Dick who had Clarence drowned in a butt of malmsey.
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
I was born in LA and raised in the San Gabriel Valley about 5 miles from where I live now. When I started working I worked just south east of downtown LA, about 24 miles from the San Gabriel mountains and about 3 miles from downtown LA. Back in those days we would rate the days by how far we could see. The mountains? A great day. The tall buildings downtown but not the mountains? A rather bad day. Not even downtown? Now that was a shitty, smoggy day. Once went to a lecture at USC med school about 1976 or so and one of the things we did was visit the cadaver lab with a 4th yr student and he showed us a lung from his cadaver. The bottom 1/4 was grayish and someone asked if this was a smoker. The answer was no, if this was a smoker then the lung would be all gray/black. This was a local, his lungs were not near as damaged as a smoker’s would be. This was not a fun thing for a local to see/learn, even if you were sure that smog was bad.
Ruckus
@Dan B:
I’d say there is very little that is obvious to me but I thought that people would have assumed that long ago…….
Kalakal
@Ken: Naw. That was just a drinking contest that got a little out of hand. Dick mispoke and his emails were qoted out of context. It was Eddy that had the laptop
PJ
@Baud: It’s pretty bad. Terrible writing in general. Most of the main characters (the five young people) are severely underdeveloped for most of the series (the two young women do get fleshed out a little more), and a lot of their motivations and actions are barely sketched out. Casting seems to have been based on how well the actors would look in an Abercrombie & Fitch ad. The guys playing Rand seems to have one expression (“peeved”) and the guy playing Perrin also has one (“just woke up” or maybe “drugged”), but the bad writing can’t help there. Pike does wonders with this shit, but she’s a pro. Bad CGI, costumes look they are brand new, and sets look like no one ever set foot in them before shooting started. Pacing is off. We spend a lot of time with characters who seem to have not much to do with the story (e.g., SPOILER: the work husband guy who’s very sad after his work wife dies), while the the relationships between the main characters are underdeveloped, so it’s hard to care much when things go awry or characters go their separate ways.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ken: Shakespeare was a Tudor propagandist. Don’t get me wrong, he was good, but his histories are … slanted.
Kalakal
@Omnes Omnibus: Very true. Also the main “evidence” against crookback Dick was put together by Thomas More who at the time was Henry VIII’s chief henchbeing. The Tudor’s legitimacy was pretty dodgy so they built up Richard as a monster. Shakespeare as a propagandist made Goebbals look like a beginner. He really was brilliant
different-church-lady
Basically, anyone who uses the term “cringe” is wasting their brain cells.
Amir Khalid
>@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
My thoughts on the whole house elves thing in Goblets of Fire: it was a kind of case study in how not to do political activism. Hermione makes a lot of the classic errors: making her campaign about humans first; failing to listen to what house elves really needed and wanted; not even trying to work up an argument that freeing elves was better for both humans and elves; not giving her movement an immediately appealing name (she called it S.P.E.W.). I think it’s to set up a contrast with how much more successfully Harry puts together Dumbledore’s Army in the next book.
lol chikinburd
@different-church-lady: THANK YOU. I just skimmed 300-some comments looking for some sign of this place’s unrepentant-olds conceit, and finally somebody points out how self-parodizing the use of “cringe” as an adjective has become.
And let’s not talk about that other c-word of recent coinage to yell at clouds about, where “clouds” means the dumb faces that don’t register that the word “denial” has as many letters and syllables, has been around for a long time meaning the same damn thing, and still works at least as well as your shiny neologism might have the first eight thousand damn times you said it. Glad to get that off my chest, somewhere, at long last.
Chris
@Baud:
I feel like the popular perception of a “kids these days” stereotype was Boomer for a straight forty years until it finally became Millennial about a decade ago. And similarly, I fully expect the stereotypical Kid These Days to remain a Millennial all the way through to the mid century mark.
Chris
@Sean:
It says a lot that people see a portrayal of generic kindness and immediately assume he’s supposed to be a liberal portrait.
Chris
@Matt McIrvin:
It’s also unintentionally funny in that exactly how often have you known a celebrity to turn out to be CIA?
Chris
@Jinchi:
What makes it bizarre is that when house-elf enslavement is originally presented in book 2, there’s none of that “they want to be enslaved” shit. You only meet one house-elf, but it seems to set up a fairly straightforward example of “there is injustice and prejudice in the wizarding world, and the people who are the most into it are Wizard-Hitler’s supporters, it’s bad, and freeing the slave is a happy ending.”
It’s only in book 4 that the subject comes back and that Rowling suddenly decides to introduce this “actually house-elves WANT to be slaves” twist that retroactively makes Dobby a weirdo exception.
Apparently she got enough backlash from that that by the time of book 7 she decides to sort of split the difference.
Chris
@Brachiator:
I think people also forget just how recent the popularization of ACAB suspicion of the police is. (And, heck, how unpopular it is even now). Up until the early 2010s, making your hero a cop would largely not have been seen as suspect or at odds with liberal values. Heck, there’s a fair amount of fiction that’s liberal as hell while still having police protagonists.
Chris
@Tony Jay:
I mean, that’s where fiction and reality part. Within the world of the books, being a cop (Auror) is clearly completely compatible with being an antifascist (fighting dark wizards), and, arguably, the most logical way to do so in a career setting.
That’s one blind spot that I think is very widespread across pop fiction. Stories that portray societies falling into fascism or about to, even if they’re otherwise pretty perceptive, always assume that there’ll be some sort of security organ (the Aurors, the Jedi, SHIELD) that’s so dedicated to preserving democracy and fighting fascism that the fascists will either have to destroy it or at least thoroughly and violently purge it in order for their takeover to work. Which… simply isn’t how it works: police organs are where you tend to get a lot of the strongest support for fascism, not the strongest opposition, and the successful takeovers happen precisely because they (and a few other power centers like the courts) simply allow them to happen.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
I’m still very amused that I correctly anticipated who would end up with who when I was an eleven-year-old who knew nothing about either Harry Potter or (either real or fictional) romance, but was handed a copy of Chamber of Secrets, read it, and was like… “well, Ron and Ginny are siblings so clearly they can’t end up together, that means Ron has to end up with Hermione and Ginny has to end up with Harry.”
Chris
@Amir Khalid:
Hermione is an outsider, who comes from a world where slavery is at least theoretically reviled by everyone and considered evil, and it’s so self-evident that she really struggles with even having to explain why slavery is bad.
Which I appreciate. I remember some guy showing up in the comments section here years ago who was appalled to learn that American waiters have to live from tips, and was shocked enough by it to tear us all a new one for participating in such an inhuman system. Obviously, the guy needed to calm the fuck down and consider that you’re not going to help anyone, not even the waiters, just because a few of us suddenly stop tipping or stop eating out. And yet I couldn’t help but appreciate his viscerally negative reaction on some level, because really, that’s how we all should be reacting to that kind of idea.