A raging crowd, their high-voltage idol, then disaster. Revelers describe the moments when Travis Scott's Astroworld festival turned into a deadly wave of humanity. https://t.co/FyiurEehh5 pic.twitter.com/44RSOK6WJz
— The Associated Press (@AP) November 12, 2021
There’s always a point, in hindsight, where a tragedy seems both predictable and preventable. Fifty thousand mostly under-30 participants, at a poorly structured general-admission venue, after almost two years of social isolation, with a headliner notorious for calling his fans ‘ragers’ and encouraging them to rush the stage… well, if it had only turned out to be a coronavirus superspreader event…
Crowd management is key, but no one has more power than the artist onstage. @awalkerinLA reports on how we already know how to prevent disasters like the one at Astroworld https://t.co/F3Rx4gAGgj
— New York Magazine (@NYMag) November 12, 2021
… Keeping people in enormous venues safe is a combination of designing a space’s pedestrian flow and monitoring the crowd’s dynamics — priorities that may have been pushed aside in Astroworld’s planning. The biggest issue is keeping the crowd divided into sections and ensuring that each section allows enough space for people to stay on their feet, says Keith Still, a crowd-science expert who consults with organizers on large events. Still spent ten years working with the Saudi government to prevent fatalities during what might be the largest gathering on earth, the hajj, when 2 million pilgrims make their way to several sites across Mecca and Mina… Although the predictable paths of an annual pilgrimage seem somewhat easier to plan for than a raucous concert, the principles are similar, says Still, particularly when you are able to analyze the history of the performer and the venue: “You still need to match the design to an understanding of the size of the crowd and to accommodate demand, which inadvertently creates pressure points.”
That might require a deeper examination of the changing tastes of festival attendees. Music festivals have long marketed themselves as counterculture utopias, except now the allure comes not from TV coverage or documentaries but the images generated by the crowd itself, says Gina Arnold, a professor at the University of San Francisco and author of Half a Million Strong: Crowds and Power From Woodstock to Coachella. “Young people are still thinking of attending festivals as important,” she says. “Now, however, what they care about is not so much the music but showing that they were there.” Some experts have blamed the Astroworld tragedy on the yearning to return to public life after a year of pandemic lockdowns; the urge to get up close and get it all uploaded to TikTok. But festivals have always attracted a very particular crowd, says Arnold, as they’re generally attended by people who have already accepted a certain level of risk. “These are 50,000 people who are risk-takers,” she says. “You wouldn’t buy a ticket, especially during a pandemic, if you weren’t okay with risk.” To Astroworld’s attendees, Arnold says, the potential for chaos, behavior that Scott had encouraged in previous shows, is actually extremely good marketing. But the balance between spectacle and safety is also making festivals more precarious to produce, says Arnold…
… Texas is aiming to craft new statewide laws that may include creating a new live-events department, echoing the way European festival safety was dramatically overhauled after nine people were killed in 2000 at a Pearl Jam show during Denmark’s Roskilde Festival. As Danish concert safety expert Morten Thanning Vendelø tells Texas Monthly, large venues now hire an independent contractor that monitors crowd counts using video feeds and is authorized to end the show by pressing a button that cuts the amps and illuminates the house lights.
Every concert tragedy prompts contemplation within the industry, and some trigger widespread changes, says Eddie Williamson, a longtime production assistant who toured with Ozzfest for nearly a decade during its heyday. After the 2017 suicide bombing that killed 23 people at an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, England, Williamson says there was a noticeable uptick in security measures at venues. What’s most likely to happen now, he suggests, is that certain acts or promoters with reputations for unsafe shows could stop receiving insurance underwriting and thus become unbookable. “I think there will be a different mindset,” he says, “and they might have second thoughts.” There’s already a petition to get promoter Goldenvoice to drop Scott from next year’s Coachella lineup.…
This is important. #ASTROWORLDFest officials were warned something bad was about to break. “I got crushed in the crowd between the barricade & the fence in the tunnel going out. I was very scared,” Harris said. “I got out. I texted the PR. I told them it was an unsafe situation.” https://t.co/mISoNkm0AA
— Noah Shachtman (@NoahShachtman) November 6, 2021
Mike in NC
Having concerts with 50,000 people in the audience is just insane.
Spanky
@Mike in NC: But that’s where the money is.
Or was.
Villago Delenda Est
“Festival Seating” is an invitation to disaster. It should be banned outright. Of course, profit trumps people everywhere, so it won’t be, but the fact that musical acts are killing their fans should be at least a mild concern. Van Halen had this provision in their contracts demanding bowls of M&Ms with all the green ones removed. This was a ploy to see if the venue was paying attention to all the contract requirements, to include the rather complex electrical safety measures Van Halen insisted on to protect themselves, their crew, and their audience.
Hoosierspud
I was at a concert at Notre Dame where there were no seats on the floor. Instead, they called it “festival seating”. Of course, people crowded towards the stage, and being short, I could barely see. Then some idiot set off a string of firecrackers. We went and found some empty seats in the arena and ended up leaving early.
dopey-o
Many concerts have been held in stadiums with that much capacity. I think the difference is that experienced stadium managers were not in charge, the promoters put zero effort into crowd control measures, and it was an all-around money grab.
Condolences to the dead, the injured and their families. The Covid toll from this event may be even higher. I hope not.
Ken
Typical of Texas to use a big-government legalistic approach to solving the problem, instead of leaving it up to market forces. Or, let people do their own research and decide what risks they are willing to accept.
(Do I need the sarcasm tags?)
Yarrow
The Astroworld festival was out of control before it got started. People broke through the security set up at the entrance and just ran in. It was early in the day – maybe 11 a.m. or so. People were already getting trampled at that point. If they couldn’t control the crowd entering the venue things were unlikely to improve once they were all in there.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ken:
Need to have flashing tags saying “SARCASM, DUMBASSES!” with a .gif of Red Forman.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Brown ones removed.
Booger
@Omnes Omnibus: THANK YOU.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Light brown or dark brown?
SpaceUnit
One trick is to stay safe is to cultivate better taste in one’s music. Learn to love those indy / alternate artists that play far better music but always fly under the radar of popular taste and big record labels. Your concerts will always be at little underground clubs. The crowd will be smarter and much much cooler.
Just saying. Come at me.
Omnes Omnibus
@SpaceUnit: But the restrooms….
Villago Delenda Est
@SpaceUnit: You mean like seeing the Beatles in Hamburg? I’ll need a wayback machine for that…
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est:
I am not getting into some kind of racial argument about M&Ms.
gwangung
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s COLORISM, not racism….
Villago Delenda Est
Does that name sound a bit too “Play-Tone” to anyone besides me?
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
There’s a brown one and a tan one
And a red one and a yellow one
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all taste just the same
.
SpaceUnit
@Omnes Omnibus:
The restrooms will probably be nicer than those port-a-potties at a two-day music festival.
Omnes Omnibus
@gwangung: Point taken. I am still not getting into it.
PsiFighter37
Hard for me to care about this when there are plenty of other things going on in the world. Especially because gathering this tightly for something in these times is mighty stupid to begin with.
frosty
Festival seating , my experience. Hollywood Palladium, early 70s. I was there for lots of good shows but I can’t say I saw them. We all sat on the floor until the bands started playing, then we stood up and went towards the stage, on foot for the whole set.
I’m short. All I ever saw was someone else’s shoulder blades.
Omnes Omnibus
@SpaceUnit: Hmmm…. That’s a bit like how many angels can dance on the head of pin. Essentially unknowable. But in a really horrible way.
James E Powell
@NotMax:
There is a yellow one that won’t
Accept the black one
That won’t accept the red one
That won’t accept the white one
Different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and
Scooby-dooby-dooby
Omnes Omnibus
@James E Powell: As soon as we got there
Good times were rolling
White, Black, Puerto Rican
Everybody just a-freakin’
Good times were rolling
Percysowner
@Mike in NC: Simon and Garfunkle had 500,000 at their Central Park Concert. Diana Ross had 800,000 at hers. Now those drew very different crownds, but I suspect the NYC cops were all over it as well. It can be done, but it takes work.
delk
Last big show for me was Pitchfork Fest. Capped at 20,000. Plenty of room and better sound further away from the stage.
J R in WV
The
twothreefourmany stadium shows we have gone to were safe, Pink Floyd sold specific seats, and you by god sat in those seats or they threw you out. Same for G Dead. Same for Mothers of Invention (that number up front there will continue to grow as my memories return!) same for so many shows I’ve been to in the past 55 years.First giant rock show was Big Brother and the Holding Company — Janis Joplin, what a goddess of song — was totally safe. Bars and night clubs are safe. Even in Manhattan, the last place I saw great bands in November with friends. A year before the plague came…
This Travis Scott guy should be in jail right now… if his shows commonly wind up like this, it’s his fault, put him away. Hope this show bankrupts him, the outfit putting the show on, the arena, everyone associated with the fatalities in any way. I saw the video of people breaking down barricades in the morning before the show, that should have stopped the whole catastrophe right there that very moment!!
SpaceUnit
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’ve always been sort of meh on the Beatles. But I live right across the valley from Red Rocks amphitheater – quite possibly the best music venue anywhere. I can see it from my living room. And yet I haven’t been to a show in a decade. The lineup is shit and it gets worse every year.
mvr
@frosty:
Remember a Stones show in Seattle in 81. 1st we slept out the night before. Then we got numbers and got to wander around the area for much of the day only to return in the afternoon at which point we were let in for festival seating. Two opening acts (Greg Kihn & J Geils Band). And then a wait. The trick for getting close was timing your last bathroom break so that you could make it through the main show. This was after the fatal Who show in Cincinnati but this was still festival seating a few years later. They did have people up front lifting some of the crowd up and out and it felt relatively safe. But I have not been to a large show without much better crowd control in 30 years. Some shows have a standing room front section but they are disconnected from the seats behind them.
FWIW, I’ve been in small club shows that felt less safe. Once walked out of an REM show in a bar in PDX where the venue owner was counterfeiting tickets so as to beat fire regs and cheat the band.
Ken
@NotMax: I think they’re up to eight flavors of M&Ms, and probably have seasonal horrors like sage or pumpkin pie spice.
Dan B
@Ken: OT but you wondered about getting a Covid booster 2 months after your last dose. I read that is not good until 6 months out because the immune system needs a break. Apparently it causes too much stress to the immune system and you can be less able to respond.
I don’t remember where I saw that but it’s probably possible to locate some info.
Suzanne
I went to see Bad Religion last Tuesday. My first live show since the pandemic. I really missed live music. It was a new venue to me, and it being a punk show, there was definitely a crowd moshing near the font. I am too old for that shit, and also really like social distancing, so I was near the back. But I’ve spent many shows in very tight crowds.
Anyway, I have done the big music festival thing. I have always wished that there were better options for seeing the artists. Especially for people who are smaller, it’s really difficult to enjoy some types of venues. Women routinely get groped in crowds like those. In some ways, this is a design problem, but it’s also a choice not to enforce any boundaries.
Chetan Murthy
@Dan B: This is what I read also. In multiple places. I’m sure it’s possible to find immunologists talking about this: it was all over the place a couple of months ago, counseling people to wait.
Dan B
@Chetan Murthy: Thanks for confirming. I wondered if it was a wild dream after a spicy dinner.
Chetan Murthy
@Dan B: I remember there was also reporting that the level of antibodies found in people who waited longer between the first two shots, was higher. Which nobody expected, b/c nobody tested during trials. At the time when places like the UK and Canada were doing it, everybody was “oh, that’s not so good” but, turns out, it was actually better with a longer gap, than with a shorter one. To give the body time to learn from the first shot.
Dan B
@Chetan Murthy: I read that as well. I got my shots through Kaiser and they were strict about the schedule. I’d have preferred to wait six weeks.
Ruckus
@Dan B:
This is what the VA told me about any sooner than 6 months for the booster.
Percysowner
@Chetan Murthy: I think that is why Moderna was showing more effectiveness, because the wait between shots was 4 weeks and Pfizer was only 3.
SpaceUnit
@Suzanne:
Yeah. Music festivals are a drag, honestly. The crowds wear me out. Usually you’re just there to see maybe two or three bands and the joy is diluted by having to slog through endless acts that you care nothing about.
CaseyL
The last time I listened to live music that I actually enjoyed was at a small venue, with table seating and bar service. The last time I enjoyed a large-ish music event, it was at a folk festival where we could spread out picnic blankets, have food and drink in picnic baskets, and the crowd was mellow.
I know I loved major music festivals as a teenager, but I also remember that getting wasted beforehand was a necessary prerequisite. Otherwise, it might have seemed obvious to me that being in a crowd of tens of thousands of people, listening to badly amplified music and lyrics we couldn’t make out over all the crowd noise anyway, was…. how do I put this?… A really stupid and not-fun way to spend a day.
The punk movement, with fans being deliberately belligerent, sloppy drunk, and music that was all about how everything was shit… I never, ever, saw the point or joy in that.
Grumpy Old Railroader
Doobie Brothers concert in Medford OR in 1977 at the Jackson County Fairgrounds. Huge crowd. Must have been a thousand people in festival seating. Very crowded up close to the stage so we hung back of the crowd so we could take a few tokes. The acoustics in that cow barn were pretty bad. I must have been pretty stoned cuz I remember having a good time in spite of all those crowds. I don’t think they made much money that night LOL.
Sure Lurkalot
My high school BF and I went to a concert on the 70’s, I don’t recall the band, but while waiting in line, the crowd started to push. My BF, under 5’, in front of me, her scarf caught on something or someone, twisting around, screaming, terrifying minutes until the corridor opened into the arena space.
I have been claustrophobic in crowds ever since. To the point of hyperventilating and coming close to passing out. This story is horrific on so many levels.
barbequebob
@Mike in NC: They clearly learned it the hard way, but Rolling Stones shows since the 1980’s have featured reserved seats throughout the venue, and floor seating is partitioned into sections that had checkpoints you needed to show a ticket to get past. People individually managed to find ways to get closer to the stage but no mass crowd surges. No one in their right mind holds concerts in a large venue where the space in front of the stage is unrestricted and has no seats. (well maybe Boston Pops on 4th of July but I have not been so can’t say for sure.
Ken
@Dan B: No, I’m now six months since dose 2 (in May). Sorry for any confusion.
SpaceUnit
@CaseyL:
For all its faults the punk movement kicked the music industry square in the nuts (full disclosure – I love me some punk, X, Social Distortion, etc). It knocked down the walls and made way for the post-punk period which was one of the greatest, most free and creative genres in modern music history.
It took those bastards 15 years to get their grip back.
debbie
@Percysowner:
I was at the Simon and Garfunkel concert. Exiting was a bit of a crush, but no other problems.
debbie
prostratedragon
@debbie: Mark Twain award is now assured.
Almost Retired
I have no interest in music festivals, probably because when I was at a prime musical festival age, they had fallen out of favor (very late 70’s, early ’80’s, US Festival notwithstanding). So when Lollapalooza and Coachella came along, I had small, demanding children and large, demanding bosses, so there was no time. That being said, I have recently enjoyed the BeachLife festival in Redondo Beach, because it’s within walking distance from my house, and I can go home and take a nap between sets.
zhena gogolia
@debbie:
Suzanne
@SpaceUnit: I went to one a couple of years ago that I enjoyed quite a bit because there was a lot to do if you weren’t into the band that was on at that moment, there were more and better food options, and there was plenty of space. I feel like concerts would be significantly improved if they just took visibility seriously. I am 5’6”, and it is just such a bummer to have a big dude in front of you. With all of the advancements that have been made, it is ridiculous that this persists.
I will also note that the dude next to me (not Mr. Suzanne, on my other side) kept brushing against my ass. I hope it was an accident. I don’t know.
Another Scott
HITC.com:
50,000 x ~ $500 = $25M
MorningBrew.com:
Nobody could have predicted!!11ONE
Grr…
Cheers,
Scott.
Ivan X
@SpaceUnit: everything you said.
raven
@Another Scott: That’s some bullshit
Tony Gerace
One of the few products that are still manufactured in the United States are personal injury lawsuits. I hope that Travis Scott (whoever the hell he is) and the “organizers” of this event are sued to the point of bankruptcy. If, and only if, that happens, that might put a stop to this kind of criminally negligent idiocy. Why, yes, I am a cranky old man. Why do you ask?
Feathers
Funny story about concert experiences. My mother loves classical music, live if possible, season tickets to Shakespeare and the Opera, live theater all the time. My father can’t stand it. Irish band at a pub is about all he can be convinced to go to.
Now the Smithsonian has an incredible collection of priceless musical instruments, including several Stradivarius violins and a cello. There is a short list of world renowned musicians who are allowed to play them if they are in town. Two such creatures discovered they were both in DC and called the Smithsonian to see if they could come over and do an impromptu concert. Smithsonian said yes and put this together within maybe three hours. My mom’s best friend worked there and invited her. Mom called my Dad. He wasn’t that enthused, but she was his ride home, so he went.
Turns out, he really liked it. As he told me later, he’d like classical music if it were all like that, nice music, you could get up and stretch your legs if you needed to. There was wine to drink while you were listening, and snacks. We all cracked up. Basically my father’s minimum standard for tolerating live music is having the Emperor Joseph II experience.
Oh, well. Sadly, I was in Boston. I did get to hear Yo-Yo Ma and the Silk Road Orchestra in a small room concert where I got to sit on a sofa when I worked at Harvard.
Fuck everyone involved with Astroworld. They should no longer have careers. Also, one thing not often mentioned is that the concert was being live-streamed by Apple. If this is why they didn’t shut it down, there is someone else who needs to pay.
Another Scott
@raven: I saw that. Maybe one could argue that security wasn’t good enough in those places either.
But leaving those out, as I did intentionally because I thought it was a distraction, there’s still another 100 or so deaths…
Cheers,
Scott.
raven
@Another Scott: I don’t see any connection but that’s just me.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Well, I wasn’t expecting that ending!
Feathers
@debbie: another unexpected ending, well the whole thing is one unexpected thing after another. I hope the cow’s OK Link
West of the Rockies
Was Travis Scott obviously at fault? I just looked online and see a whole bunch of “No way Travis could have prevented this” stories.
Lumpy
I don’t agree that it’s the artist’s responsibility to insure crowd safety. That is the role of the promoter and the venue security. For one thing, when you are on a stage and under bright lights, during an evening event, the visibility into the crowd is terrible. It’s true that Travis Scott could have stopped the show and said something, but I figure he was waiting for instructions from the stage manager or other staff. Nobody running the show told him to pause the show, so he didn’t pause. Just like it’s not Travis Scott’s responsibility if someone was supposed to be on the guest list but wasn’t, not his responsibility that a crowd of people broke through a fence, etc. If he made irresponsible comments during the show, encouraging people to rush the stage,that would be a different story. But even then, the venue and the promoter have to bear the most responsibility for what happened. If I recall correctly, there were 11 stampede casualties at a concert by The Who. But I don’t recall the Who being personally blamed, or calls for promoters to boycott the Who.
Benw
@Suzanne: I hate the toxic masculinity that still haunts punk shows and I hope Bad Religion was a good show!
Stacy
He’s been arrested and convicted/plead to a lesser charge twice already for inciting a riot at one concert and disorderly conduct at another for telling fans to rush the stage. Security guards who were protecting him on the stage were injured.
Ajabu
Travis Scott is not responsible for that mess. As someone who has spent his life on concert stages with some really big name artists, you can’t see shit behind the stage lights, you don’t know if it’s 20 people or 20 thousand out there and crowd control IS NOT the responsibility of the performers. Unless the artist is explicitly agitating the crowd all that can be done from the stage is perform unless told otherwise by stage management. Fuck passing the baton on this one…
debbie
@Feathers:
That first guy!
Sebastian
@Ajabu:
Travis Scott is the main producer of Astroworld. He bears all responsibility.
Ilefttxwhenannlost
I have been to many crowded live venue shows…small and large…all with non-aggro crowds…that is key and where the fault lies…any crowd needs to be safe to their crowd neighbors…unfortunately there is no one to sue there
Booger
They were and there were.
yellowdog
@Lumpy: The Who concert crush happened as people were trying to get into the venue; it wasn’t people rushing the stage. IIRC, the band didn’t even know anything had happened and the show went on.
Miss Bianca
The weirdest part of this for me is that I have no idea who Travis Scott is, or why 50,000 people would attend one of his concerts. Other festival disasters like this (thinking about the Who et al), I at least knew who the artists were. I am now officially A Old.
cwmoss
@mvr: the PDX club owner sounds like Larry Hurwitz, one of Portland’s most notorious scumbags.
mvr
@cwmoss: Is he doing time for murder? Because I heard that one of the employees was killed to hush up the counterfeit tickets long after I left town. It was Starry Night in the 80s.
tam1MI
@SpaceUnit: One trick is to stay safe is to cultivate better taste in one’s music. Learn to love those indy / alternate artists that play far better music but always fly under the radar of popular taste and big record labels. Your concerts will always be at little underground clubs. The crowd will be smarter and much much cooler.
The Station nightclub fire begs to differ.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire