In case you’re new to Medium Cool, BGinCHI is here once a week to offer a thread on culture, mainly film & books, with some TV thrown in. We’re here at 7 pm on Sunday nights.
I know it’s Halloween, but for this week’s Medium Cool let’s talk about Dune.
As I mentioned in last week’s thread, I’d just seen Villeneuve’s film and I was gobsmacked. It’s a tremendous accomplishment, and only covers the first part of the novel. So let’s talk about that film. But also the Frank Herbert novel, David Lynch’s 1984 film, and Alejandro Jodorowsky’s aborted version (if anyone’s game).
dmsilev
Very much enjoyed the film.
I would argue that, contrary to what a lot of reviewers and critics have said, it ended at more or less an appropriate place. Paul accepting that he needed to fight that duel was also him accepting that he couldn’t avoid the (awful) destiny that awaits him, that his story and that of the Fremen are bound together. So, it marks a fundamental turning point in the overall story. The first film told the story of Paul Atreides, and the second one will tell the story of Paul Maud’Dib.
BGinCHI
@dmsilev:
I agree. And so much of the petty bitching is just so tiresome. There was a great review on LGM that covered the film and novel and made a good argument that the flaws in the original were handled pretty well here (by Villeneuve & Roth).
Frederick Stibbert
Dune 2021 – mostly about Vehicle Boarding Ramps Deploying w/ Intention.
debbie
@BGinCHI:
Were there anything other than flaws in the original? ?
NotMax
Obligatory?
:)
Cermet
Sorry but the show was very average and except for special effects (yes, over the top) did not do the book justice; still, that isn’t saying too much. The book was extremely sexist – woman were still offered as slaves; only men can be a leader, and only a while man can save the poor desert brown people.
Like an advance civilization can’t fly a CAP, or have radar or uses just couple people to guard the most vital device (the ‘house’ shields.) God, please. But the ecology of Dune was fun (which no show ever really bothers with which was the authors main point when he created the book.)
BGinCHI
I love Sci Fi films for the world-building (which includes character-building), and so I could watch something like Dune (the new one) for hours and hours, just to stay in its world. That’s a feature of both Blade Runner films as well. I love the atmospherics and imaginary worlds.
dmsilev
Oh, and unless you have a really sweet home-theater setup, this is a film to at least consider seeing in an actual theater. Obviously that decision depends on the local risk levels, your own personal tolerance of that risk, etc., but at least think about it. It very much takes advantage of the large screen and so forth.
Edmund Dantes
I really liked the film, and it inspired me to pick up my copy of Dune to re-read for the first time in awhile (at least 15 years).
the re-read has brought into sharp relief that a lot of the movie complaints aren’t borne out by what’s in the first book (mentats not really explained as an example). People are doing the classic thing of remembering information they have from later books and reads and bringing that knowledge to bear on stuff that is hinted at or only makes sense once you have the later information.
of course the movie is not perfect, but it’s really well done.
BGinCHI
@debbie:
I meant the novel. I haven’t read it in like 30+ years, so I really don’t have an opinion on how it holds up. I loved it when I read it. But not obsessively enough to read any more in the series.
dmsilev
@Cermet: The ecology of Dune unfortunately makes no sense whatsoever. How much energy does a sandworm need to propel itself through the desert at such speeds, and how much does it need to eat to gain that energy?
And stillsuits violate the laws of thermodynamics.
Doesn’t matter, really. But Dune and “the laws of physics” are only casual acquaintances.
BGinCHI
@dmsilev:
Yes, I saw it last week in the theater and it was so much more immersive.
Brachiator
I want to see, but have not yet seen the new Dune. So I will save this for later.
Let me just say that the David Lynch version was an odd and ugly film. Lynch has a unique vision and style, so I can understand why the producers thought he might be a good choice. But he brought the wrong sensibility to the film.
The producers thought they were going to get another Star Wars. They even commissioned action figures. Oops.
ETA. Even though I loved science fiction as a teen, I didn’t know about Dune. I ran across the novel in a neighborhood market that had magazines and second hand novels in the rear of the store. I thought the cover of the book looked cool. Really enjoyed the novel, but did not read many of the later books in the series.
debbie
@BGinCHI:
Ah, I thought you were referring to Lynch. I thought about rereading the book, but I don’t want to be disappointed.
Craig
I really enjoyed the new movie. Last night I was watching The King, also starring Timothee C., and was struck by some of the parallels between young Prince Hal and Paul Attended. Force fitting a lot there, but it was a fun little game.
BGinCHI
@debbie: SAME
Omnes Omnibus
I read the first three books years ago. The only one I reread was the first. I’ve yet to see the movie, but I will judge it on the characterizations of Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho. Okay, I am weird.
Brachiator
@dmsilev:
You are absolutely right.
It does not matter.
Leto
Hell, might as well start it. Ok, positives: visually amazing. Wish I owned a private IMAX theater because this would’ve been an amazing experience. Ok, now that we’re done with the positives.
Negatives: for me, pretty much everything else. Uhm, story was garbage. Characters motivations were incoherent. Both “good guys” and “bad guys” literally had no depth/motivation for what they were doing. I found myself asking, “Why the F are they doing that? It makes no sense.” Pretty much all the context for why things were happening were stripped out. Apparently Denis wanted to let the visuals and sound fill in those missing components of Herbert’s original story, to which I say: you utterly failed the mark.
Ok, here’s an example. Why is it so important that Yueh’s the traitor? In his version, it’s just, oh, he’s the traitor. There’s actually far ranging implications for that, both for the Atriedes as well as the rest of the Imperium. Also there’s the entire subplot that Jessica might be the traitor, which was done by the Harkonnen’s to throw off that Yueh is the traitor, but which also boomerangs back into the second half of the story. It’s a fairly major plot point that’s just over with in 5 seconds.
Here’s another: why the fuck do they keep showing the bulls? What’s the point behind that if you’re not going to explain the larger meaning behind it that drives Leto? Yes, there’s like a 2 second explanation during the graveyard scene where Leto just offhand mentions it, but c’mon man… you keep showing the bulls and it doesn’t make sense.
Poster Chetan Murphy asked last week, “What would a person with no knowledge of the books think of the film?” My wife read the first three books once, about 25 years ago, and before we watched the movie I asked her, “How much of this do you remember?” She answered sand worms, Paul is the leader… that’s about it. I thought, “Perfect!” At the end of it, I asked her what she thought. “It’s alright. I’m not particularly excited about it.” Considering her BFA and MFA are in creative writing she had some more to say about the story (didn’t make sense, dull, long), but it pretty much matched mine.
I want to put up a counterpoint to this version: the Apple TV rendition of Foundation. That’s what Dune should’ve been. I’ve only read the first Foundation novel, but honestly didn’t like it. The TV adaptation is whole ‘nother story. It’s interesting, the characters are interesting, the different themes are interesting, and it has room to breathe. That last part can’t be overlooked enough. Dune is a fucking dense book. Trying to cram that into even four hours simply won’t do it justice. I didn’t expect a sentence by sentence recreation of the book (I saw the trailers and already knew they were monkeying with everything), but they basically just stripped everything out and showed off a ton of pretty visuals. It was Bladerunner 2049 pt 3. Dunerunner 10539.
BGinCHI
@Craig: You’re right about that, as prince narratives only have so many permutations.
The Chalamet haters wear me out as well. The kid is a good actor, and was, I thought, superbly cast in The King (young, pretty, skinny, and ready for underestimation).
I think most of the negativity is because he’s so natural in himself and attractive.
Omnes Omnibus
@BGinCHI: I had haters when I was young for much the same reason. It is wearing.
NYCMT
Jodorowsky’s version was never going to have been made, not even in the 1970s, not even with rafts of cocaine and rafts of cocaine money. I would pay money for his production bible, though.
Villeneuve’s movie is competent, and the character and story changes smart, and the story beats hit accurately and clearly. The practical and the digital effects meld seamlessly, except for the ludicrous carry-alls, and the acting is professional, well-directed, and believable. I think Jason Momoa would have made a better Gurney Halleck than Josh Brolin, but that’s me. I do get whiplash from thinking about the Zardoz/Night Porter’s Charlotte Rampling as Reverend Mother Mohiam, but dammit it is 2021, not 1981.
The 2001-3 SF channel miniseries are the most fun to watch though. “Tell me of the waters of your homeworld, Muad’dib.” “We have so much we poop in it.”
Craig
@BGinCHI: yes. The haters confuse me too. Kid’s a good actor.
NotMax
@Edmund Dantes
Haven’t seen it, not itching to and more than willing to wait until after all parts have been released. My understanding from skimming articles about it is that never once is the term “mentat” used.
Wil
I thought Dune was incredibly boring when I read it as a teenager. I never read past the first book. I devoured most other sci-fi and fantasy literature that was available in the 80s.
Any reason I should bother with this movie?
BGinCHI
@Omnes Omnibus: I know your beauty is a curse.
I’m sorry I mentioned it.
Mike in NC
I liked his sequel to Blade Runner, even though it was about an hour too long.
Omnes Omnibus
@BGinCHI: It’s okay. People can’t help it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike in NC:
He did that? Not promising for me then. But I am not really the target audience for either movie.
NotMax
@NYCMT
Trailer for a documentary about the Jodorowsky version/vision, which as proposed would have impoverished Scrooge McDuck several times over.
;)
SiubhanDuinne
YYYYYEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!
ETA: I really apologize. I know it’s not an open thread, but DAMN! A two-out first-inning grand slam? Imma go off topic for that any old time!!
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: Baseball?
Leto
@dmsilev:
So I’ve seen this, and I’ve read a paper (Scientific Practicality of a Stillsuit) where the guy talks about the same issue. Idk if you’ve ever heard of the Dune Encyclopedia. It was a stand alone book that was made after the fourth Dune novel that attempted to provide more information about the Dune Universe. It was done with the help of Herbert. In it they have a section on stillsuits which might provide more info. But I want to quote the research articles closing paragraph:
(bold mine)
Edit: forgot the Dune Encyclopedia pdf link. I’m one of the rare individuals in that I own an original Encyclopedia. Only a small amount were published, so I consider myself pretty lucky.
Procopius
@Cermet: I’ve always been bothered by that. Although everybody (including, I think, Frank Herbert) claims the novel is a wonderful exposition of ecology, he never really describes how the ecology works. Sand Trout, the pupae stage of the Sandworms, are never even mentioned until the third book in the series. The reason(s) why free water is so rare on Arrakis is never even mentioned. He never even explains what food sustains such huge creatures. I really enjoyed the novel until it took on this cult status. I was somewhat bothered at the time by the fact that Leyt-Keynes, with the title of Planetary Ecologist, seems to be more an anthropologist and an activist for the Fremen. I’ve only watched the beginning of the movie, and it seems OK but will anybody who hasn’t read the book figure out who Gurney Halleck is?
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Baseball, yes.
BGinCHI
@Leto:
I don’t understand blaming the movie for being a movie. And part one of 2 or 3. If it was a TV series, we could judge it next to Foundation.
In terms of the traitor, perhaps it’s a good choice depending on what unfolds later. Perhaps not. I don’t know how to tell, yet. A lot of this film was set-up, and a lot of it was rearranging the plot of the novel for expediency (which all films of books should, and must, do).
It does make sense to me that it’s frustrating this film is both too short/compact to really be “Dune,” but was also the only way (as far as I know) that Villeneuve could get the whole thing off the ground. IOW, make the first, and if it sells, we’ll give you more money. So they had to write based on both some completeness and also leaving things undone for the future. Peter Jackson, I’m pretty sure, didn’t have to construct his trilogy that way.
Perhaps the bull theme will come to some resolution later. It was too conspicuous not to, I think, but we’ll see.
The whole white guy among the brown people issue, which is of course an issue, is inherent in the material. Is it possible to have a Dune that knowingly critiques this Orientalism/white savior/Colonialist conceit? I hope so. But I don’t think there was room in this film, which didn’t get far enough to unfurl that critique.
This is the best review I’ve read: https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/10/dune
Leto
@Omnes Omnibus: Gurney’s role is pretty small. Only 1 or 2 poems, no baliset. I can’t wait for him to return in part 2 and all of his important action be cut because the entire buildup for it in part 1 was cut. Duncan was a bit better. More fleshed out, closer to how he’s portrayed in the book. Again, some vital parts of his brief story are missing but here we are.
Omnes Omnibus
@Leto: I might suggest that you are too near the story for anything to satisfy you. I know that there has been no film version of Scaramouche that gets the story right, at least not to my satisfaction.
Leslie
Have not seen any of the adaptations except the just-released one. Read the first five or so books in the series many years ago. Given the complexities of the book, I thought they did a decent job. Timothee C has to carry the film, of course, and he does, with capable assistance from the rest of the cast. There are many criticisms that could be made, but given how spectacularly most previous renditions failed, I think this one went about as well as it could. A truly masterful production of Dune (just the first book), covering all the nuances and details, would require at least a ten-hour miniseries.
BGinCHI
@Omnes Omnibus:
Be the Scaramouche you want to see in the world.
–Gandhi
Omnes Omnibus
@BGinCHI: I try, I really do try.
Craig
One of the things I like about the book is having to figure out some things that are just referred to. Like the Butlerian Jihad. What is that? Is this right? long long ago a war was fought to overthrow what was essentially SKYNET, humans were freed from The Matrix and computers were banned. From this the Mentats develop to replace the computers. Is that kind of close?
NotMax
@NYCMT
Heh. Jason Momoa felt like he was ‘the shittiest one in the whole room’ working on ‘Dune’ with Javier Bardem and Josh Brolin.
dmsilev
@Leto: Well, to quote from that paper,
So if the stillsuit has an active power system that can drive a refrigeration loop then it can work. Absent some sort of battery or fuel source for which there’s no text-evidence, the author is being kind by saying “the practicality is a long way off indeed”.
It’s actually even worse than portrayed. Humans cool themselves off via the evaporation of sweat, but a stillsuit recondenses that evaporatant, which at 100% efficiency would undo the cooling effect and of course you can never get all the way to 100% so add in some additional waste heat for good measure.
rose weiss
I saw it this afternoon on the big screen. As everyone says it was gorgeous, making me glad I decided to risk my first theater visit in almost 2 years. I loved the books, especially of course the first one, but it’s been at least 30 years since I read them. This seemed like a version of the story made for 12 year old boys, with lots of loud explosions and macho heroes. The best thing about seeing the movie is to be inspired to re-read the book.
Omnes Omnibus
Just a note: I went to the Bond movie and Last Night In Soho this weekend. I could pick out the Dune people in line.
Leto
@BGinCHI:
It’ll have to be a not because the plot point regarding Jessica is totally gone. Denis erased it. Which means that Gurney’s later scene will make absolutely no sense. Maybe they’ll just cut it entirely, which to a certain degree means that Gurney’s entire character is a waste for the movie.
Jackson did though. One of the crowning points of the film trilogy is Aragon reclaiming Anduril, cementing his status as the true King. In the novel? It’s in the first novel, it’s about a paragraph long, and it’s nowhere near the moment it is in the film. Tom Bombodil? How about Boromir? In the book he dies off page, that’s that. In the film? Heroic death and galvanizing moment.
It’s not so much leaving things undone for the future. It’s about an incoherent story caused by leaving most of the story out.
That’s what we do though, right? We base our opinions off the source material and make a judgement. How about this: read “Last of the Mohicans” or watch the movie? Personally I saw watch the movie as about 90% of the story is told. What did they leave out? A ton of characters standing around, grandstanding, and giving these super long speeches. They aren’t needed. Cut’em, move along with the story, which is what they did. There’s plenty of movies like that. The point of this is, do they get the messages/themes across? For this, my opinion is no.
If they do it’ll be pretty wonky as most of the explanation for it was done by Leto, because the ghosts of his father’s actions bear down on him and his decision making running up to the events before the Harkonnen attack.
That’s another thing. Is Paul going to distrust the Benne Gesserit? Idk. The catalyst for that was done with his interaction with Rev Mother Mohiam. But again, it’s another skip. The movie keeps skipping vital information/character motivations which, if you try to introduce into act 2, won’t make sense.
Regarding the white savior trope, nope, it won’t be addressed. Denis already addressed that critique. You can find that on Youtube.
Leto
@Omnes Omnibus: was it the irregular walk?
Omnes Omnibus
@Leto: Not while waiting in line. And, to be fair, I might have just assumed they needed the restroom.
NotMax
(Very) peripherally topical music: Blue on Blue.
Top o’ the charts by vote on the Arrakis hit parade, because the eyes have it.
:)
dexwood
@BGinCHI: I love everything about Blade Runner except Harrison Ford. He has two acting faces, a pained, constipated expression or a lifted lip smirk.
dmsilev
@Craig: Whether the machines that were destroyed by the jihad were full-up AIs or more-sophisticated versions of the computers we have now depends on whether you look at just Frank Herbert’s books (the latter) or the additional books that his son and other authors added on later (the former). That caveat aside, yes that’s a good summary.
Leto
@dmsilev: I’ll offer this. Considering how Dune is set about 100k years in the future, maybe they’ll have work out something by then. :P
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ll readily admit that I’m too close to the material. Buuuut that doesn’t mean that I want to see the story absolutely butchered just to fit within a specific 120 min timeframe. This version and Lynch’s will run about the same amount of time. While there are plenty of faults with Lynch’s, his is getting the motivations of the characters correct.
What’d you think of the new Bond? I thought it was ok.
Leto
@Craig: like dmsilev said, that’s pretty close. If you clink on the link above to the Encyclopedia it’ll detail it further. (double edge sword there: keep the imagination alive or know everything). The later work his kid and Anderson did was… bad. Current theory is that his kid and Anderson wrote all the sequels to be able to sell the “conclusion” novel of Dune (book 7). The only way to understand book 7 is to read all of the prequels. Also all the major themes that Frank wrote about were undone in that novel.
Omnes Omnibus
@Leto: The Bond movie was a Bond movie. I like Bond movies. I loved that in addition to the DB5, they also had one of my favorite Astons, the 1980s Vantage, a beautiful beast of a car.
ETA: Also Ana de Armas was perfect as a near parody Bond girl.
Leto
@dmsilev: also what’s the Joule–Thomson effect, and would it have any bearing on a stillsuit?
Leto
@Omnes Omnibus: critical difference with this Bond movie, but yes. They were cycling through a number of the classic British Bond cars. I wondered if they were going to get to the BMWs, but no they were not!
Omnes Omnibus
@Leto:
I am trying to avoid spoilers.
eddie blake
@dexwood: he also points at people a lot. lots of waggings of the finger.
the thing that stuck with me was whomever made that horrible decision to put baron harkonnen in that robe. instantly i thought of one of those inflatable, arm-wavy attention-getter things that beckon the unwary into used-car lots.
and i haven’t been able to UN think that any time i try to think about the movie with a more critical lens.
Wag
My son and I saw Dune in the theater today, and it was a treat. First time in a theater since March 2020, and it was completely worthwhile. The special effects were phenomenal, but more importantly, the movie captured a lot of the nuances from the book that I had forgotten. To need for a slow kill because of the personal shields, the need for stillness, then action. Women of immense power despite living and changing the world despite misogyny. I can’t wait for the next movie.
CaseyL
I have not seen Dune yet, but based on what I’ve heard, it may be one of the few movies I actually go see in a theater, because EVERYONE is saying the visuals are stunning.
I don’t expect a “faithful” adaptation, whatever that is. I read the book for the first time back in the 1970s, have read it and the next three sequels multiple times since then, up to and including God Emperor (which I suppose has some thematically interesting stuff going on but I could never get past the sheer ludicrousness of the basic premise: “Wait, what? He’s a worm? He’s a 3000-year old worm? Excuse the fuck out of me?”), and realize a “faithful” adaptation is flat out impossible. The work is too dense, the universe too complicated, there is simply too much going on and none of it lends itself to easy, straightforward exposition.
I shelled out major money to attend the premiere of the 1984 Lynch film, and absolutely loathed it. Saw the SciFi mini-series, and quite liked it.
I would be happy to settle for a version with internally consistent story-telling, with coherent characters that bear at least some resemblance to their literary selves, that picks a theme or two from the books and treats that theme with the care and seriousness it deserves. From what I can tell, the new version does that – and does it beautifully.
That’s all I ask. I’m happy to spend the money to see that on the large screen.
oatler
Not from Dune, but my favorite Herbert quote:
“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong – faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it’s too late.”
Craig
@Leto: thanks for that link, I forgot about that deep geek tome, my friends and I would dork out with that thing when I was a kid.
Spanish Moss
@Cermet: I don’t feel the book is sexist. The Bene Gesserit are powerful and play a pivotal role in the story. And Jessica is a formidable woman!
dmsilev
@Leto: Wikipedia has a description and much math, and not really. You’d need some sort of power source to create and maintain the pressure differential that the effect is based on, so you’re just pushing the problem back a level.
However, I take inspiration from the following wisdom:
BGinCHI
@Leto: My point about Peter Jackson was that he didn’t have the constraint of funding for just one film. It was planned as a trilogy from the beginning. They filmed it almost all at once, unless I’m misremembering, and then it was released as three films. So he had what, 8-9 hours of screen time to write for? That’s not the case with Dune, or at least not the reported case.
You brought up Foundation, and that it has more space to stretch out across its episodes. Dune doesn’t have that option. And yes, many films have a felicitous time cutting things down to fit. “Last of the Mohicans” didn’t have nearly as difficult a time, since the book is plodding and mostly dull. The core of the story was ripe for a film. Dune is more epic in scope. Would I rather see it as a 10-hour series? Absolutely.
I don’t think this Dune is Citizen Kane. I thought it was entertaining stuff, based on a sci fi novel lots of people thought was unfilmable. I’ll wait to see what the next installments bring before I judge the whole. But one thing it probably won’t do is be both faithful to the novel and transcend it. Would be cool if it did.
CaseyL
@oatler: I think that quote, or a version of that quote, is actually spoken by Jessica in one of the sequels, either to Paul or to Alia, and is definitely a warning about theocratic government.
oatler
@dmsilev:
Isn’t that from the Analects and Dialogues of TV’s Frank?
NotMax
@Spanish Moss
It must have been hellish growing up with a mother skilled in The Voice.
EAT YOUR BROCCOLI.
dmsilev
@BGinCHI:
Rosebud was the sandworm.
Spanish Moss
@NotMax: ?
I read the first three books in the series, but the only one I really loved was the first one. I am not a big SciFi fan, but the opening with the Gom Jabbar test reeled me in, and the intrigue kept me enthralled. I am planning to see the movie — the trailers look amazing.
hotshoe
@NotMax:
:) :) :)
Bard the Grim
Abigail Nussbaum writes very good reviews, and as noted in the LGM link, has her own blog at https://wrongquestions.blogspot.com. I’ve spent a lot of time exploring her archives, e.g, for her discussions of Banks’ Culture series.
gene108
@Omnes Omnibus:
Just described my relationship w/ Jackson’s LOTR movies.
Leto
@BGinCHI: Regarding Jackson’s trilogy: it almost wasn’t made. It was originally 2 films, almost reduced to a single film at 2 hours, but eventually was brought back to 3 after. Here’s the wiki with all that info. He def had that constraint of funding, but he fought to get the funding to make a proper film.
Yes, Denis didn’t have that guarantee for a sequel. But I also think that in his attempt to get the first half of the book into 2 hour slot, he cut out most of the story. Reading the LGM piece now. Did you get chance to read the piece I sent via Watergirl
Edit: I’ll say this. I had no expectation of transcendence. I just wanted most of the core themes to survive. Water conservation/importance? Cut.
L85NJGT
It was fine – my preference would have been an episodic streaming edit, but given the source material and a movie edit, it worked about as well as it could.
Leto
@CaseyL: The quotation is a BG proverb that Paul remembers his mother quoting. He remembers her remark while waking from a dream at dawn of the day on which he’s to capture a sandworm for the first time, so the first novel.
Geoduck
@Leto: Boromir does not “die off page” in the LotR novel. It’s true we don’t see his last battle against the orcs, but the reader and Aragorn find him mortally wounded and they have a last short conversation before he expires.
JimV
I just saw it streamed from HBO Max at a friend’s house.
In that venue, unless the sound was turned up enough to make the music (which I didn’t much enjoy) thunderously loud, you couldn’t hear the actor’s voices.
Most scenes seemed to be taken fairly straight from the book, as I recalled it. Of course a lot of detail had to be stripped out, since it is a long, dense, complex novel. In general, I think most good sf novels would be better as mini-series than as movies, but given the time constraints of even a two-part movie, I thought it was a decent effort. My general experience with good novels made into movies is that it is best to see the movie first and read the book second. Doing it the other way around will almost always disappoint you with the movie. (E.g., “Presumed Innocent” and “Silence of the Lambs”.) However, a bad or mediocre novel may well be improved in the movie version.
My main complaint was the lack of color. Almost everything was either a dull shade of tan or grey. The deserts I’ve seen in Arizona were more colorful, and hey, it’s an alien planet with an alien sun. It doesn’t have to be dull. The eyes of the Ibad did stand out though. Also, there was a big mural of a sandworm that was interesting. They could have done a lot more of that, but they didn’t.
On the whole, it beat the crap out of the first-made Dune movie, circa the 1980’s, but that is a low bar. It was okay to watch for “free” (given an HBO subscription) with a friend who had also liked the book, speaking some of the lines before the actors did, and calling out “Muad Dib” when the desert mice appeared.
randy khan
I saw the 1984 movie at its first midnight showing for the public (as opposed to a fancy premiere) in New York. I should have gone to bed instead. I rank it in the bottom 5 of all movies I’ve ever seen, and everyone there knew it would be a mess from the opening narration by Princess Irulan.
And let’s not talk about the ending.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: How was the Edgar Wright film?
zhena gogolia
@JimV: The sound on HBO Max SUCKS
SFAW
@BGinCHI:
It’s been awhile since I read Dune, so I tried reading through it again. I guess I need to set aside more time, and read it slowly and non-judgmentally, because after the initial attempt at re-read, I put Herbert in the same class as Dan Brown and Christopher Paolini (Eragon et al.): good stories, very interesting plots, but shitty writers.
[OK, Dan Brown really is a shitty writer*, and Herbert is not really that bad, he just has some affectations (e.g., his persistent “games within games within games” usage). I chalk up Paolini’s poor writing to his youth.]
* Digital Fortress is a prime example.
Ksmiami
@Wil: huge sci fi fan here esp Asimov, Philip K Dick.. etc. Couldn’t get into Dune because I just couldn’t believe a future in space where technology Re smart machines didn’t exist… that said, the movie looks visually interesting and I’ve heard Momoa brightens every scene he’s in.
Benw
@SiubhanDuinne: this is a dumb game.
Craig
I’ll just add that as far as titles go Emperor of the Known Universe is pretty badass. If we discover a new place, well, it’s mine.
piratedan
Dune was out in 67, and while I’ve read it and appreciate it, it still is mostly space opera with a side of messiah complex.
There are loads of othe cool stories to be told and i hope that someone will get to them…
See… Ringworld, seven princes of Amber, on basilisk station, dust, 13, etc….
Tehanu
Well, I seem to be in a minority here because for me the visuals were only stunning in the sense of being hit over the head — everything huge and dreary. The interiors were all as bleak and empty as the deserts — even on Caladan — and there were way too many shots of zillions of soldiers and lackeys standing at attention or, alternatively, running into battle and hacking each other. I don’t know why they even bothered to have the Mentat Thufir Hawat in the picture as his training of Paul in politics was completely omitted. I thought Timothee Chalamet, Oscar Isaac, and Jason Momoa were pretty good and Rebecca Ferguson would have been better if the script had let her do anything, while Stellan Skarsgard and Charlotte Rampling were totally wasted. And then, after all the “epic” stuff of invasions and gigantic spaceships and sandworms and things blowing sky-high, the big payoff is … a knife fight. Meh.
SFAW
@Leto:
And in the movie, Legolam spends a good 15 minutes (OK, maybe not that much) fighting an oliphaunt. Whereas the book gives it about a paragraph (and rightfully so). In other words, Peter Jackson would too often (for my taste) go for the BIG-and-you-proles-better-appreciate-my-craft shot. Arwen saving the Fellowship at Bruinen (instead of Glorfindel), because hey-it’s-Arwen.
Sorry, just being curmudgeonly tonight.
StringOnAStick
I enjoyed the novels way back in the ’70’s, especially the first one (hey, I was 18). I absolutely hated the David Lynch film version, too many of its hideous images remain stuck in brain and I really wish they weren’t. When you have to pass out vocabulary sheets to the audience before the film, you’ve failed. I’ll see the new one sooner or later but this county has been in the top 3 or 4 for Covid cases in the entire state for weeks now, so later is much more likely than sooner.
SFAW
@SiubhanDuinne:
I hate the Astros (feckin’ cheaters), and I don’t have a lot of love for the Atlanta Racial Epithets (although it seems Freddie Freeman is a pretty good guy), so I’m sort-of hoping the Series gets decided by a steel-cage match.
But TFG and Melanie doing the tomahawk chop was so cute and on message for them. Or something.
Major Major Major Major
I wanted to write a post about Dune but I realized I don’t have anything interesting to say. I enjoyed it and I’m glad other people are!
Back to anime for me I suppose.
Leto
@SFAW: I’m not as versed in LotR, but my friends who are have a lot of the same complaints. See, I liked that scene (75 sec from the time Aragon calls to Legolas, to when Gimili shouts, “THAT STILL ONLY COUNTS AS ONE!”). Not for the huge visuals, but because at the end it further showed the friendship between Legolas and Gimli, and Gimli’s reaction was just funny. But I understand the complaint.
SFAW
@Tehanu:
In the context of the novel, it sort-of is. As noted above, Jamis’s death is a turning point for Paul, and I would guess it’s as good a jumping-off point as any for Part 2. [No, I haven’t seen the movie yet.]
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: it’s also right before a time skip so it’s sort of the only sensible place to stop after the fall of the house.
ian
@Leto:
If my memory serves me right, he dies in Aragorn’s arms. Who then proceeds to weep about it for a while, sings some songs, spends 12 hours figuring out how to bury the guy, and then decides to just abandon Frodo to whatever fate may happen, so he can go chase after the other, as of yet not important hobbits. Probably the low-point of the Aragorn arc in the LOTR novels. For my many criticisms of Jackson, including that in the movies is not one of them.
SFAW
@Leto:
No doubt Anduril was Castilian steel.
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
So it can usher in the next film?
ETA: Waves at NotMax
Czar Chasm
My turn!
Dune was essential to my early teenager period: I saw the movie (and the 4-ish hour re-cut) when I was 11, & my 11 year-old sensibilities thought it was phenomenal; my current 47 year-old self would now pan the film, but 36 years will do that. It did inspire me, however, to actively seek out all the novels, my first foray into reading a full-blown sci-fi literary series. Since then, I’ve skimmed the first four books now and again, but they’re too damn dense for me to justify a full re-read. I also skipped over the entire 2000 & 2003 mini-series: The first episode just didn’t hook me.
Now, the current film: One must go into any film adaptation with the knowledge that it will always be a different beast than the precious imagining of the literary work that lives inside your head. This applies especially to Dune, because the novel is so dense in its world building and intrigue that it is literally impossible to fit into a duology: A trilogy would probably be enough, but that’s a huge budget for such a small fan base.
Villeneuve met an objective very well: Find what would resonate with the mainstream audience, and discard the rest (Mentats and the Benex Tleilax, the politics played by the Bene Gesserit, the tension from Leto’s suspicions of Jessica). What is left – Paul’s developing meta-senses, the world-building, the mother/son relationship, and LOTS OF SCI-FI VIOLENCE – is used by Villeneuve to bring in the masses without offending the Herbert devout too much. I think there were a few errors (Downplaying the Fremen’s shock at being concerned for the harvester crew, underselling The Box’s significance, the terrible water discipline displayed by anyone wearing a stilsuit), but was primarily successful.
Did I love it? No (but I was in love Villeneuve‘s obsession with garish carpets spilling out of nobility ships), but this movie was not marketed to me. I did like it, especially the portrayal of Duncan Idaho. I’m gonna reserve final judgement after I see Part II: Bonus points if he leaves in the fate of (BOOK SPOILER) Paul & Chani’s first son.
At the very least, it’s worth seeing.
SFAW
@Leto:
And don’t get me started about the Paths of the Dead!
Major Major Major Major
Oh, and I got to teach all my friends the phrase ‘space opera’ afterwards. Guess it’s not widely known. Or just among millennials.
@SFAW: boooo
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
Jealousy isn’t a good look for you.
Chetan Murthy
@Leto: Re your wife: it’s what I feared. And that example of Dr. Yueh is a good one. No backstory at all for why he did what he did, and why anybody would be surprised that he did it.
I’ll check out Foundation.
Major Major Major Major
@Leto: the first Foundation book was not my cup of tea either. Asimov always leaves me cold but it was downright Ayn Randian sometimes. I have no interest in checking out the show unless it’s totally unlike the book.
Poe Larity
The thing about 1984 Dune is that it didn’t do justice to using 70mm. It should have been Lawrence of Arabia in space, but it was pretty flat. The new moviette is ok but it misses the location is such a central point.
Matt McIrvin
@gene108:
I think I was in exactly the right place to enjoy those movies–I’d read and very much liked The Lord of the Rings, but it was decades earlier and I’d forgotten a lot of details, and to some extent they were even mixed up with memories of the incomplete and very flawed Bakshi and Rankin/Bass animated adaptations.
Just recently I went back and read it again and it changed some of my opinions about Jackson’s movies–helped me see where some of the Tolkien-fan critics were coming from… but those movies, by and large, work brilliantly on their own terms as movies. They necessarily can’t be quite the same work as the books. I can excuse a lot of the sillier touches in them, and the character changes and such, because they actually did successfully translate a lot of great individual moments to the screen. There are some bits I definitely would have done differently. I think the climactic scene at Mount Doom was actually done better by Rankin/Bass! But a lot was great. Ian McKellen’s performance as Gandalf alone gives it so much weight.
Dune, on the other hand, is never a book I’ve been able to read at all–I just bounce off after a few pages. So mostly I know it through the bizarre Lynch movie.
Leto
@Chetan Murthy: I guess my wife and I are the outlier here. Story makes total sense, everything is seamless, can’t wait for part 2 when they transport worms off planet, his sister channels their grandfather, the true enemy arrives, they blow up Arrakis, and Duncan becomes the true Kwisatz Haderach. In Villeneuve’s version, this all makes narrative sense.
dmsilev
@Major Major Major Major: The Foundation TV show is best described as ‘inspired by’ the Asimov stories. The basic structure and premise is there, but they’ve changed and added a lot. Some for good, some not so much. The (no spoiler) treatment that the show has for the Galactic Emperors is interesting, and does add something to the theme of a stagnating Empire unable to adapt to changing circumstances.
Leto
@Major Major Major Major: It loosely follows it, but I think they’re pulling in other parts of the novels. Something that I realized early on was that there were a lot more females cast in leading roles. Also that I think all of the episodes directors have been women. Larger POC casting too. They’re going into questions about humanity, whether certain beings have souls, the idea behind hereditary lines, religion… I mean, lot of stuff being covered but in a really interesting/compelling way. I’d recommend checking it out as I think you’d like it based on your past reading/gaming history.
Edit: or as dmsilev says above, per the opening credits it “loosely follows” the stories. I like that the emperor’s main helper is a continuation of Asimov’s other stories, which is part of the larger Foundation universe.
Craig
Looking back I think the presentation of the desert mouse was a little heavy handed, but whatever, like said I was ok with the whole thing.
Major Major Major Major
@Leto: hehe ok so it’s totally unlike the book. Good.
Tim C.
One of the things about Dune, (Or for a lot of literature for that matter) Is that It’s completely rational for it to fall flat with some people and others to love it. As mentioned many times, Sci-Fi tends to very very much reflect the time and place it is written and therefore, yeah… really sometimes ages poorly.
Zeerust is the trope https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Zeerust
To Sum up:
PJ
I read the first three Dune books when I was in 8th and 9th grade, which is about the right age for them. Herbert isn’t a good writer, and his writing got worse as the books went on. I gave up after God Emperor, which mostly seemed to be a giant man-worm monologuing his interminable philosophy for hundreds of pages.
One good thing about adapting a book for film is that you can’t carry over the bad writing. What do I remember about the Dune books? Sandworms, space Arabs, a conflicted Messiah, space witches, and a bloody Jihad which isn’t much good for anyone. Villenueve carries all of that over into his film, makes it intelligible (not an easy thing to do when Herbert does so much more telling than showing), shows the motivations for all of the major characters, and delivers on the spectacle. I think it’s about the most faithful good adaptation anyone is going to make.
What it isn’t is visionary. Lynch’s movie was terrible, but it did at least show you something different, something personal. That’s not the kind of filmmaker Villeneuve is. Herbert was writing Lawrence of Arabia in space, but Villenueve is no David Lean (and T.E. Lawrence was far stranger than his or Herbert’s Paul Atreides). He made a very good, tense movie, explained as much gobbledygook as necessary, and focused on the relationship between the two most important characters in the first part of the book, Paul and Jessica. Rebecca Ferguson delivered a great performance (Chalomet less so, but he is still a callow teenager at this point in the story.) I am looking forward to the second half.
As for the “what about this part?”, “this character isn’t developed”, blah blah blah – who gives a shit? Where’s Tom Bombadil? Nobody cares except you. Anyone who adapts another work for another medium is only using it for inspiration. If you want everything that was in the book Dune, just re-read it – your imagination is the best adapter for you. If you want to experience a not-too weird space opera featuring some giant worms, Denis Villeneuve’s Dune is there for you, too.
PJ
@Leto: The savior trope is embedded in the story; it is the story in the book and the film, and, as you know, it doesn’t turn out so well.
Leto
@PJ:
I think this is the best review of the movie so far.
NotMax
@SFAW
:waves back:
;)
@Tehanu
“You brought a worm to a knife fight?”
;)
Major Major Major Major
@Tim C.:
All science fiction is fantasy. “Hard sci-fi” is just fantasy with a vibe certain people respect more.
Gustopher
@BGinCHI:
Simple: Make the Atredes Black. Harkonnens too, if you want to, and the Emperor. Then, it asks the question of why a bunch of black folks are deciding the future of a planet of white people, which is a message that even the willfully obtuse will ask.
There’s nothing in the story that requires the noble houses to be white, and making it a black savior story makes it really clear that the original source material has problems that you have to set aside to enjoy the story and the world building.
Plus, you can then do some really cool Afro-Futurism designs.
(Of course, you also then have a bunch of Black folks fighting over drugs… Blue? Maybe in 20,000 years there are blue people)
West of the Rockies
@Major Major Major Major:
His stunning lack of female characters is odd to me. But I also think Larry Niven has no business writing female characters.
NotMax
Dune is Nude spelled sideways.
Think of the children!
//
CaseyL
To everyone who tried to read Dune and gave up after a few pages: Skip or skim the first 50 pages.
When I first tried to read the book, I had the same problem. A couple of years later, in college, I took a “Science Fiction as Literature” course, and Dune was one of the assigned books. So, you know, I kind of had to!
The professor mentioned that a lot of people have problems getting into the book, and recommended we skim over the first 50 pages, then settle in and read.
It worked for me. Try it, if you really want to read the book.
(Yes, the first scene, where the Reverend Mother tests Paul, is terrific. But then things bog down and are boring for a while.)
Kent
Something you could say about any SciFi film ever made that involves interstellar travel. Yet we still enjoy them.
Leto
@PJ: actually, no, the casual viewer won’t know that with just this film. That theme doesn’t really play out until the next two novels. Right now it’s still Paul trying to… who the fuck knows with this one. But as you said, if someone wanted to know it, they need to read the book. Otherwise:
Kent
Something my daughter noticed about Lord of the Rings. And why she though it was uninteresting.
Poe Larity
@CaseyL: That’s what they say about Atlas Shrugged.
Gustopher
@PJ:
This is a callow teenager who reacted with complete stoicism when his mother’s coworker came over and threatened to kill him if he didn’t keep his hand in a torture device.
There were no human reactions. It made no sense.
David Lynch’s Dune was very much detached from reality the entire way through, with scenes chopped to the bone and a narrator explaining what each scene meant. It wasn’t good, but it mostly worked. And even there, Paul is angry and concerned about what these prophesies have to say about his father.
Villeneuve went for a more realistic style and nonetheless chopped away all traces of emotion in the main character.
But, if the story is trying to be a bit more realistic, Paul has to react more realistically. Not saying he should storm out afterwards, shout “I hate you! I hate you! I hate you!” at his mother, stomp off to his room, slam the door behind him and listen to loud music while crying, but… that would have been a better movie.
Anoniminous
@Poe Larity:
With Atlas Shrugged you can skip the first 1,168 pages and not miss a thing.
Major Major Major Major
@CaseyL: Neal Stephen’s Anathem… took me a year to read the first fifty pages and a week to do the next 750. I hate recommending it because the beginning is just such a slog. Great book though otherwise. How do these things get past an editor?
Geoduck
@Anoniminous: So you’re suggesting we start halfway through?
PJ
@Leto: Uh, there’s a lot of heavy foreshadowing with Paul’s bloody hands that Villeneuve keeps showing the audience.
West of the Rockies
There are times I want to ask, “What is a film or book you really enjoy?”
So I can then shit all over it.
Arclite
If there’s one advantage to them not filming the movies at the same time, it’s this:
There’s a period of several years in which the Atreides live with the Fremen. Since most of the second movie will take place after this period, it might make the actors look more mature adding realism.
Fair Economist
@Major Major Major Major: Hunh. I thought the whole first third or so of Anathem was a snoozefest before it transformed into a pageturner. I’ve had no trouble recommending it; I just say it starts out slow before becoming very lively.
Also, once I was though it, the slow opening seemed like an experiential introduction to the backstory. I really experienced that the society had been designed to be stable and boring (but with the potential to change if needed).
CaseyL
@Major Major Major Major:
Slow slogs are usually expository, setting up the universe the story takes place in. The more divergent/strange the universe, the more exposition is needed.
Really, really good writers can finesse this, or at least engage the reader so much we don’t mind figuring things out as we go. John “Mike” Ford was a master at this. He wrote incredibly intelligent science fiction that takes place in alternate universes of various sorts, and he would drop the reader in the deep end immediately. I never minded, because he was just so bloody good.
I think Iain Banks’ Culture novels are much the same; it’s like taking a ride on a tornado with so much strangeness coming at you at once, not understanding much of anything, hoping/trusting to figure things out as you keep reading.
Writers who are not excellent, are not geniuses, need the data dump. I guess there’s only so much an editor can do to fix those slow starts.
PJ
@West of the Rockies:
Q: What is best in life?
A: To discover what strangers love, disparage it, and mercilessly belittle the works of art they hold dear.
Leslie
Huh. It’s been a while since I read Anathem, but I don’t remember any of it being a slog. But I was a confirmed Stephenson fan by then, so maybe that gave me more patience.
Tehanu
@SFAW: Maybe I didn’t understand what was happening, but it didn’t seem like the knife fight in the movie was a turning point; it just seemed like yet another in a long string of fights. I don’t think the script made that clear at all, but perhaps I wasn’t paying attention properly after almost 3 hours.
Viva BrisVegas
Always late to the party, but anyways.
Dune is very good, not perfect. But it’s the best filmed version of Dune we’ll be seeing in most of our lifetimes (assuming part 2 is not a travesty). It’s true enough to the source to maintain Herbert’s themes, if not all of his detail. My suggestion is to enjoy it if you can, or avoid it if you can’t.
Foundation on the other hand, is not true to its source. It appears to have nothing to do with Asimov’s themes. The only common feature appears to be some character names. Nothing of the original characters musings on determinism or technocracy have survived into the TV series. Instead we have several religious themes, much derring-do, and the shoehorning of a 911 scenario into the plot.
Asimov would have been to first to admit that he wasn’t a great wordsmith, but surely he doesn’t deserve the contempt being shown here towards him as a writer.
Sid_Viscous
David Lynch’s Harkonnen were more fun to watch than Villeneuve’s Harkonnen.
There, I said it.
Brantl
@debbie: Yes, there was a spectacular novel about a man who could see where his choices would lead to personal sacrifice, and made them the moral way, anyway.
Jake Gibson
If you adapt a long dense novel such as Dune into film, you will have to cut out a lot of plot. You will have to decide what parts are most important to the story and what will make a dramatic and visually interesting film. People who are attached to the book will not like all those choices.
I haven’t seem the film and it has been nearly 50 years since I read the book.
A film adaptation where I was attached to the source material was John Carter. I knew they would have to remove Burroughs’ Victorian sensibility and making Deja Thoris badass was a good choice. And giving John Carter a darker backstory was a good choice. However, at times the jumping ability was ridiculous. And making Tars Tarkas a wimp made no sense. And undermined Tarkas later leading the capture of Helium. In the books Tarkas was second only to Carter as a leader and fighter.