Here’s the story of the Bustles, Jessica and Josh. Josh is a realtor. Jessica is a “homemaker”, likes to post on Facebook, believes their child was “harmed” by vaccines and is anti-vax. She thinks that people who receive blood donations should be notified if they’re getting it from a vaccinated person, and likened vaccine id cards to yellow stars in Nazi Germany. She’s also pregnant. On January 6, they went to the Capitol and walked around. They were near Ashli Babbitt, who Jessica characterized as an “unarmed peaceful woman,” when she was shot for trying to enter the Speaker’s Lobby through a broken window created by a crowd of insurrectionists intent on violent overthrow of the lawfully elected government. The Bustle’s Capitol tour did not involve violence or property damage. They were sentenced yesterday:
Both were sentenced to two years of probation and 40 hours of community service. Both were also sentenced to home confinement: 30 days for him and 60 days for her, based in part on comments she made supporting the rioters afterward.
“I seriously considered putting you in jail,” U.S. District Court Judge Thomas Hogan said.
Prosecutors said the couple has already suffered “personal and reputational consequences” as a result of their participation. Joshua Bustle said he was no longer able to sell real estate, for example, and the couple plans to move “to start a new life.” He said their participation in the Capitol siege strained relations with family members.
Part of the extraordinary mercy the Bustles received was because they came to DC to participate in an anti-vax rally and got caught up with the crowd. The rest of it is that they had a good attorney, appeared in federal, not state, court, and, in all probability, because they’re middle-class and white, just like the 82 year-old white, Reagan-appointed judge who sentenced them.
I know that I shouldn’t compare this sentence to the ones that are meted out daily to poor folks for far less serious crimes. We should all work for a world where justice is tempered with the kind of mercy the Bustles received. And Thomas Hogan is probably a decent judge. I should be satisfied that justice prevailed.
Unfortunately for my immortal soul and gastric reflux, the Bustles’ sentence, and some of the other mild sentences that are being given to the first to plead, makes me think that this country’s lust for incarceration is failing us at precisely the moment when it should be indulged. The maximum sentence for the Bustles’ crimes was six months in prison and fines of $5K each. Why the fuck not? She could serve it in on weekends or something since she’s pregnant — I’m not a monster. I also think that more of these yahoos should be in pre-trial detainment due to their their obvious contempt for the law and clear desire to offend again if the opportunity arises. In general, I just want to see these people suffer in a way that’s commensurate with the crime they committed, even if they’re idiot ignoramuses led around by the nose by Trump.
Am I the only one who thinks that rebellions need to be crushed without an undue amount of mercy?
zhena gogolia
No.
DonnaK
Nope. Lock ’em up.
Spanky
No.
And compared to my thinking, your post is (necessarily, I realize) mild.
Kosh III
Lock ’em up!
We were generous and forgiving after the Civil War and it earned us decades of whinging about the “Noble” cause, the glorious Gen. Lee and Forrest etc etc. Lee, Jeff Davis etc should’ve been hanged. These folks have the book thrown at them
Jim, Foolish Literalist
sort of on topic… and kind of scary to hear a metropolitan police officer be so frank about Business As Usual
azlib
Unfortunately, this sort of result is about par for the course. If you are white or have a really good attorney, you will get a lighter sentence. My solution of some of these folks (especially the armed ones) would be to send them to Army or Marine boot camp, but the military probably does not want these folks.
Baud
Their views are odious, but would we think this was an appropriate sentence for the crime charged in a non-Trumpian context?
The problem seems to be that there is no criminal charge for being among the group of violent insurrectionistts. But on the other hand, we oppose it when red states enact laws that outlaw protesting because we know they wamt to sweep in non-violent protestors.
It’s hard to think about what’s fair when there’s so much unfairness in the system.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Good on him.
White & Gold Purgatorian
It’s difficult to imagine a more serious crime than trying to overthrow the government, and mercy in the absence of remorse and unequivocal rejection of their previous philosophy just encourages them to try again. Maximum sentences should be the norm for people like these. If that makes me a bad person, well, I blame Trump.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’ve thought this all along. There are multiple tiers of justice in this country:
1. White middle class and up get the best ossicle treatment, with discretion on bail and sentencing going their way the vast majority of the time.
2. White poors don’t get the same justice as their betters – in the ruralities, they’re treated like Roscoe treated “them Duke boys”, so they’re tolerated when on good behavior, arrested peacefully enough when they agreeably comply, and beaten when they fight back.
3. Black and brown are instantly suspected of murderous intent just by going about the daily business of living, held over for lengthy pretrial detention and given lousy sentences.
Ironically, the folks in category 2 love them some Duke boys when they put it over on Sheriff Roscoe and Boss Hogg, and cheered the song “Convoy”.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Baud:
The context of the crime matters and that’s why judges have sentencing leeway. The remedy is to max out sentences for the misdemeanors they were charged with. As I understand it, Judge Hogan would have been within his rights to send them to jail for a few months.
Baud
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
I agree completely with this. I certainly wouldn’t have shed a tear if they got the max.
dr. bloor
This should be the case for Trump, Brooks, Giuliani, and the loons found to be coordinating their efforts to harm members of Congress and overthrow the government. I can certainly see the case for maxing out the financial penalties for this couple, but I for one don’t want to go down the road of throwing everyone at the Capitol that day into jail.
Nettoyeur
Tsarist prisons and exile for Bolshevik revolutionaries were pretty soft and escapable. Knowing this, the Bolsheviks went big on terror, shootings, and the Gulag after they seized power. Same story for Hitler and the Nazis: although they were convicted of TREASON (often a capital offense) for their 1923 Putsch, which literally sought to overthrow the moderate, reasonable Weimar govt and resulted in at least 14 deaths, they served 9 months in comfortable circumstances which allowed Hitler to dictate Mein Kampf. Needless to say, when the Nazis got into power they went on a major spree of repression, war, and genocide, precisely as outlined in Mein Kampf. Lesson: there are reasons why treason has historically been a capital offense. Capital punishment is error prone and out of date, but treason must still be treated harshly.
Kay
I think that’s a reasonable sentence. We could cut jail and prison sentences in half in this country for non-violent offenses- an across the board cut- and that alone would have a near-miraculous positive effect.
For me, I don’t compare reasonable sentences to draconian sentences.
My issue is not that the low level insurrectionists are getting probation. My issue is that the high level insurrectionsists are not getting any punishment at all. That to me is the inequity that discredits the US justice system, not “peon I got 6 years and peon II got 6 months”.
If we want a credible justice system we have to hold powerful people accountable. Every time we don’t it becomes less credible.
Patricia Kayden
@White & Gold Purgatorian: Agree wholeheartedly with you. There’s no doubt in my mind that if the defendants were Black or Muslims, their punishment would be stiffer. They would have had the book thrown at them if the police didn’t slaughter them during the insurrection. These light sentences are White privilege writ large. Breaking into the Capitol during an insurrection should be enough to get you a few years in the slammer. And it would if they weren’t White.
senyordave
Sounds like the Bustles would do it all over again given the chance. They seem like true believers. They’re white so the judge identifies with them. I don’t think the Bustles had anything to worry about regarding jail time, it was in the bag.
Betty
Even a 30 day sentence could have impressed on them that they committed an actual crime for which there are consequences.
Baud
Sounds like they cut a plea.
The final charges were not so serious.
Kay
And, honestly, two years of probation is kind of a sucker’s deal. Probation is a probation violation engine. Smarter offenders negotiate for straight time because probation means violations which means court appearances which means an endless fucking nightmare of shuffling thru the system.
The best approach is to bite the bullet and end it. Probation is just a slightly different version of jail.
The Thin Black Duke
In White America, it’s safer to be a white man attempting to overthrow the government than it is to be a black man driving with a busted taillight. Same as it ever was.
tinare
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I have to admit to having a bit of a crush on that man. I like his no-bullshit style.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
I doubt it would be any less true if the taillight were working.
Kay
Anyone should take 30 days rather than two years probation. Just a vastly better idea – but it’s humiliating and people who don’t think of themselves as “those people” start out opposed to any time so they end up with what looks like a short term win but is not.
Leto
“Paging Mr Sherman… Mr Sherman please pick up the red phone.”
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
Add in automatic expungement of dismissed misdemeanor charges on the day of dismissal, automatic expungement of misdemeanor convictions two years after conclusion of sentence or conditional discharge time and automatic restoration of voting rights on release from incarceration, and you’ll start seeing differences quickly.
brendancalling
What’s that shirt they like so much?
Oh yes, that’s right: “kill ‘em all, and let God sort them out.”
works for me.
Shantanu Saha
Execute a few traitors, as an example for the others. We didn’t do that at the end of the Slave Power Rebellion, and here we are.
Brachiator
Probably not.
All the more reason to be fair where appropriate. The sentences in this situation seem to be fair.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay: ALSO, suspension of drivers licenses and occupational licenses over child support issues was a REALLY bad idea. All we’re doing is inhibiting work – scrap it.
Just Chuck
Man, I’ve voiced some violence fantasies here myself before, but the bloodlust on display here is getting sickening.
Cermet
@Kosh III: Jeff Davis – I’d say no; as a head of state, we tend to cut slake and the issue of healing the divide since the civilian government was made up of, well, civilians. Also, Davis simply accepted the office when offered but did not create the Confederacy. As for Gen. Lee and Forrest and other senior military leaders, hang them. Lee most certainly since he broke his oath as a military man. A few, like Longstreet and Picket realized their mistake and were remorseful. Longstreet actually supported reconstruction (for Blacks).
Soprano2
No, you’re not. I want all of them to have a felony record that follows them around for the rest of their lives, like a scarlet letter. It’s what they deserve.
mrmoshpotato
Walked around the invaded Capitol building like a fascist shitstain who was trying to overthrow the government?
Low Key Swagger
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Careful…I’ve seen that valid point made and my gawd the wailing and gnashing of teeth about “deadbeat dads”. Yes, some skip out on their obligations. Some fall behind for legit reasons and once behind….you can never catch up. Can you believe they incarcerate for it?
Starfish
@azlib: I don’t want them to have military training or grandiose ideas about their own heroism. The military is already fill of white supremacists.
Another Scott
Incarceration would be an easier choice if there weren’t a pandemic going on. Not necessarily the better choice, but an easier one.
The judge probably made the right call in this case.
Cheers,
Scott.
mrmoshpotato
Trying to overthrow the government tends to have that possible side effect.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I actually think child support deadbeats should be imprisoned at Gitmo.
I’m talking about DECENT criminals here, not those guys :)
I love the records of the people who take probation because it’s like “misdemeanor theft” in The Year 2010 and then 14 probation violations leading us to the day I read it. “WHAT did they originally DO here? My God, this has been going on a decade!”
Benw
It depends on who gets to define what’s a rebellion.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
In the past, I’ve recommended serving it out to people with shitty records and lives, just to cut down on system contact points and length.
Geminid
@Shantanu Saha: I think any executions at the end of the Civil War would have only created martyrs. The racism that pervaded both the north and the south would have survived intact.
rikyrah
Uh huh
Uh huh
Tell it.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Shudder. “Please may I just go to jail? I don’t like any of you people and I don’t want to spend two years with you”
narya
@Baud: Yeah, I think this nails it. And I want them to have a real probation officer–they’re thinking of moving, are they? Well, welcome to the red tape that’s likely involved with that. Can’t sell real estate? Hey, I’m sure you can get a job at the local fast food joint; I hear they need workers.
rikyrah
@The Thin Black Duke:
No lie told
West of the Rockies
Unpopular opinion warning.
I was a civilian in LE for 13 years (evidence tech and CSI).
One thing I learned is that if our goal is to rehabilitate people, prison rarely works. The recidivism rate is dreadful. A complete system overall is needed. I am also against the death penalty.
Bustle lost his job. (Yeah, he’ll get another.) They’ve had to move and have allegedly suffered reputational diminishment. Have they learned? Will prison make them learn?
I don’t know.
If Confederate flag fool gets ten years, I would not complain. Ditto for anyone who broke so much as a plastic sanitizer dispenser. If they hit or hurt a cop during their attempted insurrection, throw the book at them.
Will they learn? I still don’t know.
In America, prison is about punishment, not rehabilitation. Is that working? Is that what we want?
I don’t know. But I don’t trust simple one-sentence, one-solution results or explanations.
YMMV.
OGLiberal
To be honest, I think that a lot of these folks – this couple is probably among them – are a bunch of wimps who are tough in a crowd (and, yes, a crowd is dangerous even when most of them are wimps) and online but, really, not so much. (that’s why they all fly stupid Trump!/Fuck Biden flags or participate in boat parades…that’s as far out on a limb as they’re willing to go) The inconveniences this couple is facing and will have to face as a result of their crimes is likely enough to make them never want to do anything like this again. The militia/Oath Keeper/etc leader types among those arrested (or to be arrested) are the ones that need to do some actual time – but need to prove that they coordinated in some way and have future intent.
As for the Ashli Babbit caricature that this Bustle woman created – that’s straight from Bartiromo – “a beautiful person, protesting peacefully and trying to climb out of a window”. No, she looked like a freak, climbing INTO a smashed window on a door that was hastily barricaded with all sorts of furniture…a window/door that lead to the Speaker’s Lobby, just a few steps away from where members of our government’s line of succession were sheltering in place. It was clear that going beyond these doors was something none of these folks should have attempted to do….this wasn’t peacefully strolling through the rope-lines. It’s a shame that she died and based on videos I’ve seen of her before the events she clearly had some sort of break but what are the law enforcement officials supposed to do when something like that happens? What if the same thing was happening at the Trump occupied White House?
Oh, and what’s the line…”well, if you’d just listened to the police in the first place none of this would have happened.” Lunatics…
Starfish
@Kay: The way the smart people have explained it is that the charges roll up. The low level people get charged first. Any helpful video recordings they can provide will reduce their sentences and be used against the people committing more serious crimes.
geg6
No, you are not. I want them all jailed and convicted of felonies so they can’t vote. Every. single. one. of. them. No exceptions. Traitors and monsters, that is who they all are.
geg6
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I love that man.
docNC
@Kay: Home confinement is no picnic either. It’s jail, but in your home. There are lots of ways to mess that up and be back in court as well. No drinking. Curfew.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
The true child support deadbeats I’ve seen can be counted on my fingers. Most of them have had interruptions over illness or unemployment, unemployment sometimes arising over multiple court appearances for nonsupport.
My absolute favorite, though was back when I was a PD. Guy had 6 children by 5 women, could keep nothing straight, and was being sentenced for felony nonsupport. I asked the judge to probate on the basis that he finally had a job. Intrigued by my grin, the judge bit and asked “what job?”. My response was that he had gotten good paying work cutting the tongues out of hog heads straight off the stun line. Judge said “I can’t do anything to him worse than that. He’s probated….”
Kay
@Starfish:
I would like to believe that but I no longer do. I’ll be thrilled if I’m wrong. I’m for law n order.
I would like them to solve crimes, instead of riding around in tanks in soldier costumes. Crime solving. That’s the goal. They need a legal pad, a pen and a phone. A car. Go solve some.
Betty Cracker
@Kay:
QFT.
Geminid
@Cermet: I’ve read that immediately after the war, Andrew Johnson wanted to put Davis and Lee on trial for their lives- “Treason must be made odious,” he said- but Ulysses Grant threatened to resign if Johnson did this.
Baud
@Geminid:
Andrew Johnson was an asshole. I’m surprised to learn this.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I agree that they should not have any punishment that affects their ability to work.
I read that Gerald Ford promoted child support laws because his father didn’t pay support. Just so funny what motivates them. The Gerald Ford Presidential Museum is so perfectly “Gerald Ford” it’s hysterical. It’s like a municipal building. You’re looking around to renew your license while you’re there.
geg6
@Low Key Swagger:
Having had friends too numerous to name who never received what was owed in child support from the assholes who’s genes make up half of the children they never supported and who my friends had to support on their own, fuck that noise. I can count more than 10 just off the top off my head.
ETA: And as far as the assholes never being able to catch up with the support they are required to pay, too fucking bad. My friends who never got the child support they were entitled to haven’t ever caught up either. Jesus fucking Christ. I can’t even with this shit.
Geminid
@Cermet: Besides, Jeff Davis probably did more to bring down the Confederacy than any one man besides Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman.
They could have kept Davis at Fort Munroe for a while longer, though, or sent him to the Dry Tortugas to keep Dr. Mudd company. That might not have been much fun for Mudd. A contemporary summed Jefferson Davis up: “Cold as a reptile. Ambitious as Lucifer.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay:
As I recall, Orrin Hatch supported stem cell research because he had a grandchild with CF. Rob Portman supported gay rights after his some came out to him. (two years and several anti-gay votes later)
Low Key Swagger
@geg6: Not the point, but whatever. Taking away their ability to work, by suspension of licenses and/or incarceration does not put any more money into the hands of those who are entitled to it. It’s not a workable solution. Why can’t people understand the difference between scofflaws and those who get behind due to no fault of their own? The system does not differentiate, and that is a problem.
dr. bloor
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“It’s not an issue until/unless it affects me” is pretty much the Conservative’s motto.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
Try getting them to run fingerprints on a home invasion or burglary anymore. Good luck with that. They won’t even establish a presence at scrap lots that are collecting stripped commercial and residential HVAC units, many of which are brand new.
They do, however, have multiple cruisers and personnel to roll up on excessively tinted windows, wide turns and malfunctioning turn signals. They like writing speeding tickets, and another fun cop activity is lurking on roads next to popular clubs like poachers in a baited field.
piratedan
@Just Chuck: tbh Chuck I am glad that you feel that way. There’s plenty of people that feel the same way that you do… that suddenly we’ve collectively lost our way and are focusing our collective anger and desire for retribution on these people who are essentially dimwitted puppets to be used to perform someone else’s bidding. That somehow they’ll be the scapegoats soaking up the collective retribution that many of us wish would fall upon those who are responsible for the real problem.
I get that and in my more rational moments I agree, seems to me that if we’re looking at punishment, it should fit the crime..
I guess my question is, these folks were ‘caught up” in an attempted coup, what seems just? We are talking treason here aren’t we… do we think that these two would have looked away if any member of the Government would have been captured and brought out for the crowd… do we think if that had happened they would have risen to the defense of the legislator and stated… “You’ve Gone Too Far and you need to come to your senses!”? Or would they have simply cheered with the mob?
and Chuck, I don’t want you to change that position, we need more of you to approach this pragmatically, as dispassionately as possible to keep us honest and our collective keels even… just trying to let you know that when you accept the tenor of what is taking place politically and the emboldened overall behavior of the fascists that are currently in place and hoping to supplant our government, people want a lever, any lever to act as a brake on what is taking place.
We can even have a debate, which is worse, we offer a humane, appropriately reasoned sentence which appears to perpetuate the perception that “they got off easy” or you drop the hammer (because it is pretty much caught up in an act of treason, even if that wasn’t their intent) and thus make them a potential martyr, whos sentence would likely be turned into a propaganda victory for the string pullers.
I don’t see easy answers here because the nature of the beast that we’re dealing with simply doesn’t care and will use any outcome against us.
Geminid
@Baud: I read this in the Personal Memoirs of E. Porter Alexander. An artillery colonel and close associate of Longstreet, Alexander was in contact after the war with friends from the “Old Army” who held high U.S. Army rank.
Andrew Johnson was an asshole. But he grew up poor in East Tennessee, and hated the rich slavers who dominated southern politics. Right after the war Johnson was very vengeful. Then he realized that northern Republican politicians would never support him, and pivoted to a stance more accomodating to the south.
Lincoln made a real mistake when he chose Johnson to be his running mate in 1864. Lincoln faced a tough reelection, and he may have been right to choose a War Democrat to run with. But Lincoln chose the wrong one.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Guffaw. My area of expertise! I never would have predicted I would be an expert.
Ohio has a registry for scrap lot fencers now. Banned from the scrap lot! It was probably 60% of the business. Both sides of the transaction are mad.
Low Key Swagger
@piratedan: Agreed.
Brachiator
@West of the Rockies:
I agree with you. But I am not sure that framing insurrection in terms of punishment v rehabilitation really works.
I don’t know that you could ever rehabilitate the dopes who may still be hot to overthrow the government. But throwing them under the jail for future thought crime is totally wrong.
Betty Cracker
I just spent an hour or so searching for my dotty old boxer dog Daisy. I thought she was inside, but I wasn’t 100% sure since the dogs come and go all day, and I lose track. She’s deaf, so calling her is useless. Well, after searching the house and then searching the yard, I was starting to panic, but I figured she had to be somewhere on the property. I decided to conduct a more thorough search, starting in the house again, and I found her sleeping in my husband’s closet, which has sliding doors. I found her because I heard her breathing. She went in and apparently closed the fucking door. JFC!
BlueStater
I absolutely agree that the sentences for these clowns should be harsh — maximum allowable under the law. We have to make an example of these people.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker:
That’s scary. Meanwhile, Daisy might think she’s found a suitably private place to nap.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
The yards only have their own greed and stupidity to blame. How many times can you take in scrap that still has manufacturer’s stickers on the outside of the boxes along with pristine copper, coils and condensers before someone notices?
Old Man Shadow
Considering poorer women with darker skin color have had to give birth in an isolated cell alone or handcuffed to a hospital bed for far lesser crimes, I am inclined to conclude that being white and having enough money to get a decent lawyer is every fucking thing in our “legal” system.
The Thin Black Duke
We’ve been treating white assholes that misbehave with kid gloves as long as I can remember, and I can see where that has gotten us. And I’ve been aware as long as I have been alive of the sharp-edged judicial double standard hanging over my head. Besides trying my best to be a decent human being (blame my Mom for that), I also know how merciless the Law can be to a black man in White America, so I behave. So please don’t ask me to shed tears for white assholes who pretend to be rebellious. Nine times out ten they always get away with it.
Ruckus
I do think we lock up a lot of people for far longer for far less detestable crimes.
That said, I’d ask, did they bring a weapon of any kind?
Did they go to DC to overthrow the government?
Did they enter the building or even attempt to enter?
Are they fucking morons who learn only the hard way?
If the answers to any of those are yes, (and I’m sure there are more questions along these lines) then more is required to change their behavior and possibly get them to actually have a thought process that has some attachment to reality. If the answers are no then no, they do not deserve more time in jail.
We keep people in jail who have far more than paid for their crimes, we put people in jail and ruin their lives for all the wrong reasons and we really, really need to have a discussion about that and our failures to grow the hell up and understand that if we want people to be more reasonable and at least attempt to get along, that we have to treat them more reasonably. It starts with addressing our history, not the book history but the real history of our social behavior and responses to that. How we treat large groups of people, in ways that force many of them to struggle just to exist, all the while we have billionaires building rockets and joy rides. We are at a crossroads in our history and our politics and if we don’t address that we will never move on, we will never get better, we will never be the country that was envisioned by at least some of the founders and many of us today.
Chief Oshkosh
@Nettoyeur: Yep. This is an instance where, because of the nature of the crime, the environment of the crime, and the socioeconomic position and race of the criminals, maximum sentences should be handed down.
It’s the exact instance where sentencing of the criminals will inform future actions of others. The very clear signal that is now being sent is: Jan 6th wasn’t any big deal, mainly because you’re all white people. Please, come visit the Capitol again real soon.
Chief Oshkosh
@dr. bloor: Which is why I hope every anti-vaxxer gets long Covid but miraculously without infecting others.
Chief Oshkosh
@Betty Cracker: We have cats that do the exact same thing.
Fuckers.
cain
@West of the Rockies
This is the legacy of the Puritans. It’s always about judgement and punishment – it’s not about rehabilitation. Old testament style punishment gives these folks a thrill – extremely curious for a group of people who also love to talk about mercy of Jesus Christ but I guess only for those who are rich.
Chief Oshkosh
@Ruckus:
Your question answers itself.
So now what? At a minimum, loss of voting rights pending further and continued review. At least one day in prison as a felon. Maybe placed in some program for idiots to get mentally detoxed, but I don’t know what that would be.
Kay
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Well, because they knew they were fencing stolen goods but it was working out okay for everyone.
My favorite is “i’m wrongfully on the banned list”. OMG. Is this going to be really complicated? Does it involve a lot of similiar-sounding first names? I use the names to make a schematic. Dustin TO Justin TO Dustin H., like a family tree.
Brantl
@West of the Rockies: The thing is, that actual conviction is the only thing that is going to work AT ALL on these people, they don’t have a clue what the law is, and the system needs to put these pinheads in prison, so that the word starts to go out that when you pull this shit, you go to prison. And then, when they get out, they can re-enforce that idea. They’re too stupid to look up for themselves what the law is, just like they were too stupid to find out what had actually happened.
There always seems to have to be at least one body at the bottom of the cliff, to convince these kind of knotholes that jumping off a cliff MIGHT just KILL YOU.
cain
@Betty Cracker:
This is precisely the problem with India’s justice system – it rarely is the equalizer – it instead punishes both parties if they are both poor or middle class, but rarely ever punishes the rich or the corrupt.
Over the decades we have always debated what would make India a better country amongst the ex-pats and I realized that fixing the justice system is the only real way to fix the highly corrupt system of govt we have there.
The system sort of works here, certainly better than in India – but goddam – we can’t allow insurrectionists to get away with it.
geg6
@Low Key Swagger:
My friends’ exes could pay. They chose not to, to the point of working under the table or moving from job to job to avoid paying. And not a single one was ever incarcerated. The worst thing that happened was paycheck garnishment and most of the time, not even that. If you think I have an ounce of sympathy for deadbeat wife and child abusers, you have another think coming.
Ksmiami
@brendancalling: I’d say let Covid run amok among these idiots and let God sort it out but this is a minor language quibble…
Ksmiami
@Chief Oshkosh: too expensive- short one way Covid will work…
@piratedan: Actually we need to roll up the minor players to the instigators with the highest getting the harshest punishments and yes minimum jail times for the low level thugs.
Ksmiami
@Geminid: what they needed was a full Marshall plan and protection of fragile former slaves but ppl weren’t that generous and just wanted to move on
Soprano2
@docNC: Michael Cohen says he can’t go to the gym in the basement of his apartment building because it’s too far for the terms of his confinement. So yeah, no picnic.
Soprano2
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: We did get the scrapyards to quit taking manhole covers from anyone without a valid city ID. It was a problem for awhile when metal prices were high. We’re having a problem with stolen catalytic converters right now.
Chief Oshkosh
And almost like it was published to order just for this thread:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/first-she-stormed-a-state-capitol-with-ammon-bundy-then-she-stormed-congress-feds-say
See the problem here? This is what happens when there are no consequences. Bundy should still be sitting in a cell somewhere, instead…
Ruckus
@Chief Oshkosh:
In specifics I was talking about this one couple. I’m sure there are others like them. Did they know what that day was actually about? Were they there to do that? We have a right to protest in this country, and yes there are limits. Did they go beyond those limits? We have to try them on what they did, not on why or what we think they went there for. So for me I have to ask, did they know what that day really was about or did they go there to protest something else and get caught up in the BS and enter the building, or did they stay outside and not foment aggression? We are not guilty by association, we are guilty by our actions. Or at least that is how it’s supposed to be. Which is one of the things I am talking about, guilt for being black, or for not agreeing with some group, or what. We have to figure out how to change that and not to stigmatize that because that is exactly what is the major problem I’m talking about. Democrats can’t vote because they aren’t racist enough or actually like freedom or don’t believe in a deity or don’t elect the right people…..
Barry
@Kosh III: Decades? It was more than 150 years ago and this shit is still going on. Kindness and forebearance are wrong in some contexts.
Ruckus
@Chief Oshkosh:
I’m going to comment on this as well because I think it’s part of what I’m saying – are the couple that I’m writing about, are they the same as the people in the TPM story? Did they go to DC to overthrow the government? Did they participate in the assault on the Capital building – which it seems the people in the TPM story did for sure. We have to try people for a crime and for the crimes they committed, not for crimes that don’t even exist, like breathing while having any skin tone at all. I know we are all extremely angry at the sore losers and assholes who want to violently overthrow our government, and we should be. But we have to be better than them and not mistakenly put anyone in their basket that doesn’t belong. That’s their gig, blame everyone else for their shit. We have to do better, we may not have a far to go to grow up but we still have to be the adults in the room. Even more so now, because they have no idea how to be adults.
Ruckus
mistermix
Not even close.
However. I’ll ask a couple questions.
Did they go to DC on Jan 6 because there was some other protest scheduled on the same day or as an excuse to attend the insurrection? Did they carry weapons of any kind? Did they actually attempt to go into the building?
I have no belief that they are fine upstanding normal human beings, they are anti vaxers based upon bullshit, not on any actual medical condition, and that alone makes them fucking idiots. But we have the right to be fucking idiots in this country and to talk and protest to prove that.
My point of all my comments in this is that I have no problem with people being tried, convicted and penalized for attempting to overthrow the duly elected government. I have a problem for those who actually didn’t do anything being punished. The district was not closed, people had a right to assemble at the capital, a right to protest vaccination (even if they are fucking idiots). But if we start all of a sudden locking up every fucking idiot in the country, we will run out of jail cells in about an hour.
So I once again ask:
Did they participate in the attempted overthrow of the government?
Yes? Throw the damn book at them, hell throw the entire building at them, lock them up and forget that a key even exists.
No? Then the appropriate penalty is actually appropriate.
And yes we have an enormous problem in this country, setting penalties (including the death penalty) for crimes that do not and should not exist, like being black in public.
We don’t make that better by not being better.
Jeffro
No.
I mean, my god, why bother having a government if you aren’t going to crush rebellions mercilessly?
lowtechcyclist
According to the Constitution (Article III, Section 3), if you levy war against the United States, that’s treason. The insurrectionists did exactly that, AFAIAC. They may not have been successful, but that’s not the standard.
Every person who illegally entered the Capitol on January 6th, every person who assaulted a law enforcement officer on the Capitol grounds that day, should IMHO be charged with treason. And sentenced to spend the next 20 years in Gitmo. Unless they were one of those who physically attacked a cop, in which case make it life without parole.
Quiltingfool
@West of the Rockies: Long ago, I worked at Probation and Parole (in Missouri) – I was a secretary. I worked in a rural county, so many of our clients were (in my words) pig stealers and check forgers. One guy on parole told his parole officer that he would do anything to never have to go back to prison. AFAIK, he was the only one who said that out loud. Now, as for sentencing, whoo, there were some odd ones. We had a few fellows on a 5 year probation for stealing a pig (a family pet, I think), killing it to eat, but couldn’t because it was on some sort of medication. They made restitution, of course, and never put a foot wrong – the officer continually asked the judge to end probation, but nope. We also had a woman ON PROBATION who killed her husband – she must have kicked that man all the way down a staircase because there was a blood trail. I never could figure out that sentence; either she had lots of pull in her county or maybe she had been abused for years, everyone knew it, and figured she snapped (and they liked her and hated him, maybe. ) Normally women don’t get much slack for killing an abusive asshole, so that was weird.
I agree with you – prison is about retribution and vengeance. We can all understand that, but at some point where is the rehab? If felons never get a break, then why not crime? I also agree with Kay – not sure about federal probation, but state probation means you can get remanded for all kinds of stuff and out state travel? Ye Gods, what a pain.
Chris Johnson
@Nettoyeur:
This reminds me a bit of how it’s a SERIOUS crime to steal mail.
If you punch somebody in the nose you’ve assaulted a person. But if you steal a letter or interfere with its passage, you’re attacking a SYSTEM. And so it has to be societally understood that there’s fucking up, and then there’s FUCKING UP, and you think twice before lashing out at the system, especially the seemingly innocuous parts of it upon which the world turns.
I’d like to see voting treated that seriously. And I think it’s reasonable to treat attacking the Capitol, or comparable government offices, as crime comparable to stealing the mail: this is not like trespassing on just some guy’s property. It is attacking the system, the part of what we are that makes us America. We’ve demonstrably got systems in place that let even the crappiest people participate at the highest levels if we can’t outvote ’em well enough. Flipping the table when you lose is a very serious crime.
Quiltingfool
I’m a law abiding citizen, and I do not want to be a criminal. However, if one day I decide to be a criminal, I’m going to be a spectacular one. No shoplifting for me! I’m going to steal millions! So, when I end up in prison, I think I’ll have better street cred – lol! *
Hey, go big or go home.
*I’m just kidding. I have never wanted to steal anything, not because of the possible punishment, but because it is wrong.
lowtechcyclist
@Starfish:
This doesn’t even make sense with respect to the people who invaded the Capitol on January 6th. Sure, they were there because of Trump and Fox News and all the rest of that, but they have no evidence to give against those motherfuckers that isn’t already public.
Sure, there were a few militant right-wing orgs operating within the crowd that day, but by and large, the members of the mob didn’t know shit about them and have no info to give.
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
This. I still think Bush the Elder should be vilified for pardoning the Iran-Contra defendants on his way out the door. It burns the hell out of me that that doesn’t seem to have been more than a minor ding to his reputation.
And in a similar vein, the Obama Administration’s “look forward, not back” failure to go after both the GWB Administration’s torturers and the architects of the manipulation that caused the Great Recession…let’s just say that if there are any statutes of limitations on either crew that haven’t passed, I’d be delighted if the Biden Administration reopened all that. I’m so fucking tired of rich and well-connected white males being able to escape the consequences of just about anything.
J R in WV
I’ve been following Marcy Wheeler’s work in emptywheel.net — she appears to think these early guilty pleas for trivial trespass are being used to lay a floor, and that the more serious violent vandals will be sentenced to far more prison time than trespassers.
I sure hope so. Those guys beating cops with flag poles and other blunt objects need to go away. Likewise for those breaking windows and barricades down. Stealing, taking pix of your moronic grinning face in places where NO ONE is allowed to trespass. Gone away for a LONG time.
We shall see, when the violent criminals show up for sentencing. Won’t we!?
moops
perhaps time for some more creative sentencing.
Geminid
@Ksmiami: Reconstruction was surely botched. I don’t really know much detail about it’s history. But I think Reconstruction could have been sustained longer and more rigorously. The bargain after the 1876 election traded a withdrawal of U.S. troops from the South for a Republican president. But Confederate states would not have electoral votes to trade had they not been treated so leniently.
Some people say southern die-hards would have waged guerrilla war. The KKK actually did, against Black southerners. But if the U.S. had enlisted 50,000 Black men as cavalry armed with repeating rifles, the guerrilla warriors would have been killed off or scared off. Union troops were fairly effective at this by 1864, even while fighting Confederate field armies. They hanged many of the guerrillas that they caught, but this was in accordance with the rules of warfare at the time.
We’ll never know how Lincoln would have handled Reconstruction had he lived. He never would have executed southern leaders, much less the troops. But Lincoln was a tough and practical man, and I think he would have left the President elected in 1868 with a better grip on the problem of Reconstruction than did the whiskey-soaked Andrew Johnson.
Geminid
@J R in WV: I think the more violent offenders will get stiff penalties, and the “middle management” too. I just hope prosecutors can work their way up to the upper level organizers, maybe even trump. If prosecutors can get the goods on Roger Stone, a charge of felony murder would be justified.
Tehanu
@Kay:
This, 100% and ten times over!
Ascap_scab
Their anti-vax views will probably self-sentence one, maybe both, to death in the next year or two. I guess that’ll be penalty enough. I hope they have a will for the kids.