Derek Chauvin Is A Fucking Monster
The pressure of Derek Chauvin’s knees on George Floyd’s neck and back made it virtually impossible for the handcuffed man to breathe as he was pinned face down on a street and would have killed any healthy person, an expert on the respiratory system testified Thursday.
Martin Tobin, a Chicago-area pulmonologist and critical-care doctor who specializes in the science of breathing, testified that the pressure of Chauvin “jamming” his knees into Floyd’s body cut off oxygen and led to brain damage within minutes, sparking an arrhythmia that caused his heart to stop. He characterized Chauvin’s knee as being on Floyd’s neck “the vast majority of the time.”
“One second, he’s alive, and one second, he’s no longer,” Tobin said as he narrated a clip of a bystander’s video zoomed in to show Floyd’s face pressed into the asphalt, while the then-police officer’s knee pressed unrelentingly on his neck as Floyd slowly stopped moving. “That’s the moment the life goes out of his body.”
More
In graphic, gripping detail, Tobin, an expert witness for the prosecution in Chauvin’s ongoing murder trial, described how Floyd’s left lung had been rendered useless, almost as if it had been removed surgically, by the weight and restraint of Chauvin, who also was using a pain compliance technique on Floyd’s left hand, squeezing his fingers and lifting his wrist toward a handcuff — further restricting his breathing.
And this
Tobin, who is not charging the prosecution for his services, called the jury’s attention to a snippet of police body-camera video showing the knuckles of Floyd’s right hand stiffly angling toward the back tire of a squad car parked next to where officers were restraining him on the ground. Tobin described it as an “extraordinarily significant” moment showing how Floyd was using his entire body to grab for breath.
“This tells you that he has used up his resources and he’s now literally trying to breathe with his fingers and knuckles,” Tobin testified, explaining the act of breathing as a “pump handle” in which the human body cranks its way to oxygen. “This is his only way to try and get air.”
I am nearly speechless with rage.
Baud
I’m not watching because the risk of acquital or a hung jury is too high. At least the prosecution is leaving it all in the field.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
This is an important point. This is what it looks like when the prosecution is actually trying its best to get a conviction against a police officer. Remember the next time you see an officer walk after a halfhearted prosecution.
rikyrah
I haven’t been able to watch one minute of this trial.
I can’t.
I just can’t.
There have been other murders by the police,but, this one…
I think the only thing that has hurt this much in the past decade is Tamir Rice being gunned down in less than 2 seconds in the park.
zhena gogolia
I can’t watch the original video or the whole trial, but I have watched clips from testimony that Aaron Rupar has posted. It is powerful and devastating. The medical professionals yesterday were incredible.
Brantl
I don’t think we’re going to have a real conversation about cops getting away with murder, until someone rich knocks out a cop, while he’s killing someone, and there’s video of it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud:
an acquittal would require a unanimous vote, doesn’t it? I can imagine a hung jury, one or more hold-outs on either side. Hard to imagine twelve votes to acquit, but I think it’s pretty damn obvious that Chauvin’s a murderer.
Another question I’ve had: Will the jury have different charges to consider? That’s something that varies from state to state? So the jury could eventually be debating murder vs manslaughter?
Elizabelle
Link???
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Duh! Sorry, I was so upset I forgot the link!
JoyceH
I think one of the most useful things that Tobin said was that a person in perfect health would have died if treated like Floyd was treated. That pretty much negates the defense attempt to make it something to do with drugs or health conditions.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I believe there are three:
Second-degree Manslaughter
Third -degree “depraved mind” murder
Second-degree unintentional felony murder
.
germy
chauvin had something like 18 complaints against him in 19 years. I think he was responsible for another death before he killed Floyd.
I bet he’s surprised as hell about all this fuss. I’m sure he thought he’d coast on this one as well.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@rikyrah: I think the murder of Oscar Grant by the BART police in Oakland in 2009 was even worse because Grant wasn’t resisting. Floyd just is another example of the bullshit going on – the cops start strangling the guy and when the guy fights for air they call it resisting arrest.
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: Thank you.
And I agree with your comment on previous thread about Supreme Court expansion. This is a “watch out Mitch” warning.
Nicole
It still blows my mind that cameras on phones, which, I confess, I once thought was the dumbest idea ever, turned out to be as consequential to getting information out to the public at large as, heck, I’d say even the printing press (what with a picture being worth a thousand words and all). The camera phone has become one of the great tools of civil rights.
And I am cautiously optimistic about the outcome. Barring some kind of white supremacist sneaking his way onto the jury. The prosecution is doing a very good job.
zhena gogolia
@JoyceH:
Thomas has affirmed that today.
UncleEbeneezer
And so are the 3 officers who watched and did nothing!
I get the desire to call Chauvin a monster, I agree, but I do worry that so much focus is being put on one bad apple, that it is reinforcing that bad framing which helps to elide discussions about how the SYSTEM of poling is broken and allows these tragedies, rarely holding any officer accountable in any meaningful way.
I think it is absolutely right for all of us to be outraged about Chauvin and call him all the nasty names he deserves, but I would also urge everyone to go a step further when you talk about this stuff with friends, post on FB etc. We need to really change the conversation and direct it more towards the systemic aspect, when we can. But yes, totally agree. Dude is a psychopath and I hope he rots in prison.
zhena gogolia
@JoyceH:
stacib
@Baud: I’m with you. We all saw what happened to Rodney King, hell, LaQuan McDonald, and the officers got off in both cases. I have zero confidence in a conviction on any meaningful charge. My fear is what happens after the hung jury / acquittal / conviction on the lesser charge.
brendancalling
Think you’re mad now? Wait till he gets off with a slap on the wrist, or is acquitted.
Not to be negative, but we know how these typically end.
hells littlest angel
May he die alone in a prison cell.
germy
@UncleEbeneezer:
There was surely more than one bad apple on duty that day. The other cops who stood around and did nothing (other than threaten civilian witnesses).
Betty Cracker
After that shitbag cop got away with killing 11-year-old Tamir Rice in seconds for holding a toy gun in an open carry state with the whole thing ON VIDEO, I pretty much expect them to always get away with it. But one thing that’s different about the Chauvin case is that his fellow cops sure seem to have cut him loose. Maybe that will make a difference.
frosty
@germy: 18 complaints… and he was training a new hire that day.
WaterGirl
@brendancalling: I am convinced that if he is acquitted or there is a hung jury, the DOJ will prosecute.
germy
@brendancalling:
What I find odd about this trial is that none of the usual suspects in law enforcement have come to his defense. Instead they’ve all been helpful to the prosecution.
I’m certain this is NOT what he expected. He sits there day after day, scribbling his notes while doctors, other cops, EMTs, etc. refuse to cover his ass.
Maybe the verdict will be different this time. But I’ll believe it when I see it.
Almost Retired
As a long-time lawyer, I know I’m supposed to consider the evidence and suspend judgment until the defense has presented it case, etc. and so forth, and yes, professor, I paid attention in my criminal law class….but fuck it. This evil bastard is toast, at least I hope.
Tobin was spectacular, in a low-key fashion.
Of all the defense tropes here, one of the ones I hope will backfire the most (in addition to the predictable drug nonsense) is the argument that Chauvin was distracted by the “angry mob” (i.e., Black people). Utter repulsive bullshit. He was so frightened that he kept his hands in his pockets.
And the prosecution brilliantly brought in most of the “angry mob” to testify — including a quiet teenage girl, a guilt-stricken store clerk, a soft-spoken and kindly older gentleman, an off duty firefighter, etc. Angry mob my ass, Nelson, you fat bastard. Doubling my blood pressure medication for the duration of the trial.
frosty
@Nicole: I, too, thought camera phones were a ridiculous gimmick, not to mention video. It’s been extremely powerful to document what’s happening without relying only on eyewitness accounts.
zhena gogolia
@Almost Retired:
The look on his face is one of sneering contempt for the people standing around, not a trace of fear.
Almost Retired
@zhena gogolia: Exactly!!
SandyZ
I have watched more of the trial than I thought I would. Excellent lawyering by the prosecution. Good Minnesota lawyers doing their jobs, not trying to become famous off this case. Gotta make a difference. Fingers crossed!
frosty
@rikyrah: I haven’t watched and this is the most I’ve read on the trial. I’m with you – I just can’t.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: as Nicole Wallace keeps pointing out, he had his hands in his pockets
germy
@zhena gogolia:
The martial artist who testified (who was familiar with various choke holds) said chauvin gave him a long, angry look right in the eyes when the witness yelled that chauvin was using a blood choke hold. He took chauvin’s long stare as a threat.
A blood choke hold is potentially fatal.
AndoChronic
Speaking as a 5th gen. Minneapolitan. I will accept nothing less than a murder conviction. The MPD has been a “thumping” force for as long as I and my father can remember. I’m happy as hell that that fucking Nazi Bob Kroll retired. Perhaps that is why the cops are flipping on Chauvin.
WaterGirl
If you want something calming as an antidote, the Pete Buttigieg and Jen Psaki show is happening right now.
germy
I haven’t been watching some of the later testimony from police, but those early eyewitnesses you mention… I sort of felt like I owed it to them to see their testimony. It wasn’t easy for them, and I didn’t want to ignore them.
One woman kept being led around in circles by the defense. Defense lawyer was trying to do the “Surely your memory isn’t as accurate as you think” etc. bullshit to her. To which she replied “Which is why we’re lucky we have video.”
JanieM
@germy:
The smirk on his face while he killed a man tells the assembled witnesses, and all of us who watched the video, exactly that. “You can’t touch me.”
That too.
Ruckus
Long, long ago I had a friend who became a cop and I rode along with him, once.
The thing I learned that night was that the badge allowed people to think that they were above the law, and that in enforcing the law, the limits they demanded of citizens, they didn’t have to adhere to in any way. They didn’t see themselves as above the law but as outside the norms of society, that their society is the gang they belong to and our society is whatever the hell they think it should be.
It was a night I realized that many, many humans have zero respect for actual humans and what it means to be one of them. That man lost a friend that night, haven’t seen or talked to him in 51 yrs.
WaterGirl
Would it be legal for the DOJ to come out an announce that until further notice, the DOJ will be reviewing every case where the suspect or person in police custody dies?
laura
The audacity and privilege, the abuse of power, the killer believed he had the right to kill a black man in front of witnesses and knew his fellow officers would have used deadly force if anyone attempted to interfere with his murder. The witnesses also knew that his fellow officers would kill them if they attempted to interfere with the murder. The store clerk is a broken traumatized young man. Every witness was traumatized. The 911 dispatcher was traumatized. The killer must be held accountable. I hope that he experiences the trauma and fear that he took pleasure in forcing on others.
randy khan
It is so heartening to see the prosecution in this case treating it like a normal high-profile murder case, not to mention what the Minneapolis P.D. has done here.
I haven’t watched any of it, and never have watched the video. I’m angry enough about these sorts of things already.
Ruckus
@AndoChronic:
They do not want to be investigated too closely themselves. They are willing to give him up to protect themselves. It likely isn’t that he went too far in their minds, but that he’s opened the curtains on how they all act. I’m not saying all/every cop is bad, I’m sure they are not, but they all have the capacity to be him, some of them just recognize that most of us don’t think that is a good thing.
VOR
Yes, exactly. Senior officers in the Minneapolis PD have clearly testified Chauvin’s actions were wrong. That’s a big deal.
Kathleen
@rikyrah: I’m with you. I still tear up when I think about Tamir Rice. He was just a bit younger than my youngest grandson.
JoyceH
@frosty:
Photos and videos have been revolutionary. In the 20th and 21st centuries, people are baffled at the 19th century incidents of taking pictures of dead family members. But back then, people were photographed so seldom that oftentimes if you didn’t take a picture of the person once they were dead, you’d have no picture of them at all. Look at your photo library on your phone and imagine that.
germy
germy
@Kathleen:
I weep and sob whenever I see a story on Elijah McClain. That one hit me particularly hard.
Kathleen
@germy: That is another horrendous travesty. Too many names.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: The look implicitly said “challenge me on this, and you’re next”.
Ksmiami
@germy: I’ve been thinking about this a lot and maybe most cops can see themselves accidentally shooting someone with the adrenaline pumping, but in this case, it was cold, depraved and lengthy. There’s no way the community can trust these cops if they side with Chauvin…
WaterGirl
If I were a police office in training, and on my first day my Training Officer was murdering someone in front of me, I would like to think that I would stand up and do what’s right, job be damned. If this is the job, I don’t want anything to do with it.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He had no fear whatsoever that he would get in trouble for what he was doing. He didn’t think that anyone else would see it as premeditated murder, and that one man called him out on it, and specifically how he was doing it, as he was doing it. He thinks it is his right to do exactly what he was doing. I’d be amazed that he hadn’t done this before. He just got away with it.
germy
That was pretty much his intent with that glare.
Also, his hype man, the other cop who was belligerent towards witnesses, getting in their faces, trying to provoke an angry reaction.
Ksmiami
@Ruckus: I actually think maybe he was a real problem to the force and this is their chance to get rid of him
VeniceRiley
I’ve watched some witness and expert testimony, but I switch off pretty fast when legal analysts, pundits, and activists commentary starts. I just can’t.
And yes, the problems within our policing culture is systemic. Hillary had a plan.
WaterGirl
I don’t live in a cave, so I have always known that there were bad cops.
But it was Treyvon Martin who opened my eyes, and once you see black men and boys being murdered for no reason, it cannot be unseen.
AndoChronic
@Ruckus: Definitely. I don’t believe that “one bad apple” BS in the MPD, or any other PD for that matter, for a second. Interestingly, I know one of the people who trained the MPD in de-escalation, Chauvin was one of his students. He said that the MPD turned down further instruction. Clearly, that’s what they thought of that approach.
Tenar Arha
@WaterGirl: I think that the famous cases of cops who stood up to do the right thing, act as object lessons against doing the right thing. Makes me think of that story about Adrian Schoolcraft. The NYC cop who was investigating how the stats in his department were being manipulated, including recording conversations, who “somehow” ended up involuntarily committed at one point.
JanieM
The aftermath of the Tamir Rice murder also put the appallingly vicious attitudes of the police in bright lights. That this guy had the unaccountable arrogance to tell Rice’s family what to do with the settlement they got says just about everything you need to know about why the police get away with what they do.
And then there was the ambulance bill.
I had better stop here, or I will get the blog in trouble. :-(
Kathleen
On a related note, 20 years ago today Timothy Thomas, a young Black man, was killed by a Cincinnati policeman which, combined with too many other murders, sparked riots and boycotts of Cincinnati because of police practices. Something positive resulted – a Collaborative Agreement initiated by Bush’s DOJ. If anyone is interested in a story with some positive outcomes I recommend a program to be aired tonight at 8 pm on WLWT called Where We Are, which covers the process and progress which resulted as well as what we still need to do. Chokeholds have been banned as a result of that agreement which has been used as a model for other departments. I’m proud of what the city has accomplished. If Cincy managed to progress any city can. The program will also be available for streaming.
WaterGirl
@Ksmiami: There’s too much attention on them. They want it to stop.
Steeplejack
If anyone needs a respite . . .
Sorry to miss the beginning, but A Hard Day’s Night is on TCM right now—another hour to go. “The Citizen Kane of jukebox musicals,” as one critic put it.
frosty
@WaterGirl: I agree. But if you go against your training officer on your first day you’ll be fired and your career will be over. He didn’t and he’s on trial and his career is over.
I have some sympathy for the rookie. The moral thing was to take off the badge and throw it on the ground. Hard to do on the first day on the job. No such sympathy for the veteran officers at the scene
Correct me if I have my facts wrong.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I think they are flipping on him because the government of Minneapolis is looking for any excuse to fire the entire police force and start from scratch at a minimum. They throw him to the wolves and they may not get eaten.
SiubhanDuinne
@SandyZ:
I’ve watched this trial coverage every day for the past two weeks — sometimes very closely, sometimes casually or in the background — and right now I couldn’t tell you the name of the lead prosecution lawyer (might recognise it if I heard or saw it). What I do know is that he’s done one helluva fine job in calling witnesses and laying out his questioning in devastating layers. On redirect as well as direct. He’s quite brilliant at his job.
Gin & Tonic
@Steeplejack:
I hesitate to think of how said critic might have described 200 Motels.
Ruckus
@Ksmiami:
I’m very doubtful. Not that you are wrong, but that they are all ganging tother to in effect, do what they are capable of doing daily and have refused to do for how long?
This cop may be one of the bad ones, but I ask the opposite question, how many of them are one of the good ones? Think of all the people who have died, in pretty much anywhere in the country, who weren’t criminals, or who weren’t resisting, and they are still dead and upper management hasn’t done or said anything. The fact that there are pictures is what has changed, not the murders by badge. It’s not just the words of the local people, against the BADGE, it’s pictures of the crime happening, from many angles and sources. I’m cynical that all the upper management is trying to do is get rid of a bad cop. Maybe in my old age I’ve just become very, very cynical. But I doubt it, there is too much evidence, some from my own eyes, that cops think they are not just outside the law, they are the law, able to do whatever, whenever they think it is necessary, be it racist, be it personal, be it highly-actually illegal, immoral.
West of the Rockies
@hells littlest angel:
Yes, death in a prison cell with only his rage and humiliation and shattered hopes to keep him company.
The Thin Black Duke
Dear God, I hope there isn’t an acquittal.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@AndoChronic: My take on why other cops are flipping on him is that, in addition to be a sadistic murderous bastards towards the public, he’s one of the world’s biggest ever assholes even to his colleagues, and has pissed every last one of his fellow officers off to the point where they have no more fucks to give with regard to him.
geg6
@Baud:
As a privileged white woman, I see it as my duty to watch as much of the trial as possible. I feel it is my responsibility to witness. It’s been very hard to watch, but I feel obligated to do it.
I’m not watching today because I’m actually in the office and not at home where I can get away with watching during the day while I work. Today, it’s just not possible in the office with my boss in the office right next door.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
in other police news…
If I were the judge, I’d ask for an explanation of the difference between assaulting a police officer and “inner-city crimes”. I’d like to get that lawyer on record.
Soprano2
@Tenar Arha: “This American Life” did an episode about that case. It was enraging to listen to it and realize that the police all thought Schoolcraft was the bad guy!!!
germy
@Steeplejack:
A Hard Day’s NIght
The guy who played the “very clean” old grandfather was 52 at the time of the filming.
(He starred in the British sitcom “Steptoe and Son” where he was a dirty old man)
The outraged gentleman on the train, the one who exclaims “I fought the war for your sort!” was 39.
Cameron
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Assaulting police officers is a suburban crime? Who knew?
WaterGirl
@The Thin Black Duke: When Barack Obama was campaigning in the 2008 primary, there was talk of using the superdelegates to put Hillary in office even if Barack had won the most delegates in the caucuses and primaries.
My sister (more racist than I ever would have thought) asked if I thought “the blacks would riot if that happened”. My reply – as someone who had spent the last 2 weeks before the caucuses working in Iowa in 2007-08 and had spent 2+ weeks in Colorado working for the campaign before their caucuses and had spent 2+ weeks working in Michigan before their primary – was “they won’t be the only ones rioting”.
If, god forbid, there is an acquittal, or a hung jury, the only saving grace is that it won’t just be black people in the streets.
I don’t know how this trial will come out, but I am hopeful – perhaps more hopeful than I should be – that the result isn’t going to be the usual one.
And if it goes the wrong way, I believe that the DOJ will nail Chauvin’s ass to the wall, and the entire PD in Minneapolis won’t like what happens next.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
We loved our nice suburban cops in Oak Park, but I can’t remember a time in my life when I wasn’t leery of the cops in Chicago.
Roger Moore
@UncleEbeneezer:
I think we need to go back to the original meaning of the “bad apple”. The old saying is that one bad apple will spoil the whole barrel, and it was literally true. You can store apples a long time if you’re careful to exclude any bad ones, but if you include just one that’s starting to spoil and it will contaminate all the ones it’s stored with.
I think the same thing is absolutely true of the police. If you have a police force that’s full of dedicated public servants, things will go fine. But if you contaminate it with a few racist, authoritarian slimeballs like Chauvin, and pretty soon you’ll have a whole police force that thinks it’s fine to murder people they don’t like under color of law. That’s why his fellow officers didn’t stop him; they had already been spoiled by the idea it’s more important to back up a fellow officer than to protect the life of someone he’s in the process of killing.
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: You may recall that I lived right next door to Oak Park, in Berwyn, and yes, I knew there were bad cops.
And, as we used to say in high school, “cops always have the best dope.” They would take your stash but not arrest you, so they could keep it for themselves.
SiubhanDuinne
@The Thin Black Duke:
Me too. I think we all (jackals) hope that. But when the jury is deliberating, for however many days or hours it takes, I’m not sure I’m going to have the fortitude to come here for the waiting. The defence team haven’t even presented their direct case yet, and I’m already kind of chewed up with apprehension.
Mike in NC
We must never allow the people in this country to ever forget that Donald Trump was a malevolent sadist who encouraged police brutality. In one of his first appearances before a law enforcement audience, he actually told them “don’t be afraid to rough them up”. Cops cannot be above the law.
Another Scott
@Roger Moore: Yup.
1) The 4 officers were fired the day after Floyd was killed.
2) Apparently Chauvin was trying to negotiate a plea deal with the DoJ and Barr nixed it. (Why the DoJ should take over a local murder case before the locality had even tried him is beyond me. Civil Rights prosecutions usually/always come later, don’t they?)
Everyone can see that Chauvin murdered Floyd. There’s no reasonable defense for Chauvin’s actions. A conviction should be a foregone conclusion, in a just world. And people have a right to be outraged if that does not happen.
I’m more interested in what comes after. Will MPD be reformed – really reformed – or will inertia and “one bad apple” rule yet again. I hope and expect that at a minimum a consent decree with the DoJ will be happening soon.
Cheers,
Scott.
Almost Retired
@WaterGirl: Perhaps we met IRL. I, too, was in Iowa before the caucuses for the Obama campaign, before I was re-deployed to Nevada. I was born there, so it was a natural posting. Alas, my “I left this godforsaken state for California as soon as I was able, but I’ve come back to tell you how to vote” appeal wasn’t as persuasive as I’d hoped. Or maybe it was, given the results :)
Steeplejack
@germy:
“He’s a right mixer.”
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The cop might not say it but I will.
Inner city crime is breathing while not white.
Anyway
Trayvon Martin and Tamir Rice’s deaths touched me in a way that I haven’t been able to get over all these years later. Each new case just hurt more. I am afraid to pay too much attention to the trial but glad others are.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
I do remember that you grew up near OP; forgot it was Berwyn (I would have guessed Forest Park).
I’ve told the story here about my kid brother painting his VW Beetle as the American flag. Cops in OP, RF, Evanston, etc. didn’t bat an eye, but the minute he crossed into city of Chicago limits, the cops arrested his ass, impounded the car, and tossed him in jail for a night or two. Case went to court, and the ACLU got him off.
Steeplejack
@SiubhanDuinne:
Someone on Maddow’s or O’Donnell’s show in the last evening or two made the point that the prosecution is doing a very good job of anticipating and “prebutting” the defense case.
Jay
The KKKops and Brass turning on Chauvin, is because of “Defund the Police”.
The drip, drip, drip of KKKop murders on camera, and assorted other KKKop crimes, and protection under colour of law, has made more and more people aware that “Police Reform” is mostly a joke,
They are just starting to realize that a wave of hurt is coming for their privilege, their bloated pay and their immunity.
rikyrah
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Grant was definitely executed.
Amir Khalid
@germy:
In the early 1960s, 39 would have been a perfectly plausible age for a WWII veteran.
germy
Cartoon by Keith Knight
germy
@Amir Khalid:
Yes, you’re right.
But it reminds me of how elderly i’ve gotten, because the first time I saw the film that gentleman seemed so old to me.
narya
@SiubhanDuinne: @WaterGirl: Back in the day, I used to play handball in Chicago. One of the places I played had a lot of cops who played as well. It did not improve my opinion of them; one was a stone drunk, who would randomly pull out his gun. Not to threaten anyone (seriously), but someone that drunk no way no how should have had a deadly weapon. Another one–whom I did like, and who was thoughtful–said once that no one should be a cop for more than 20 years. Their jobs guaranteed that they saw people at their worst, and it made them think that everyone was always at their worst.
burnspbesq
If chauvin gets off, it won’t be because the prosecution failed to prove every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. It will either be bad jury instructions or jury nullification.
And I say a small prayer every day that the judge doesn’t commit reversible error.
All trials are crapshoots. That’s why there are so few of them.
WaterGirl
@Almost Retired: Maybe we did! In any case, it was a noble cause.
We helped change the world. At least until a bunch of racists woke up and said “holy shit, did we just elect a black man as president? This cannot stand!”
And it’s still better than before, but nowhere near good enough. A year ago I couldn’t have written the first part of that sentence.
burnspbesq
If you were to poll a random sample of people in the New York media market who were age 12 or over in 1965, I’ll bet a strong majority would tell you that they believed that the NYPD was in on the murder of Malcolm X.
Jay
JaneE
I saw part of someone’s testimony (I didn’t catch their name) who showed the point at which Mr. Floyd stopped breathing, and the point at which he no longer had a pulse, and emphasized how long Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd’s neck after those points. More than two minutes for both. I don’t know how anyone could say that was intended to do anything but make sure he was dead.
burnspbesq
I had a grandfather and an uncle who were cops in Albany. As a result, I didn’t grow up with the typical sheltered suburban white kid’s illusions about cops.
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: Wow! I hadn’t heard that story before. I actually went on a date with a 33-year-old Chicago cop when I was 18. My older sister’s friend was dating a cop, I think, and they set it up.
I can hardly believe my mom let me do that! To a drive-in movie! What kind of 33-year-old Chicago cop wants to date an 18-year-old the summer she graduated from high school? Hint: Not a good one!
He pressured me for sex, and as a good Catholic girl, I said I was “saving myself for marriage”. He said: “how about a little oral sex, then?” I don’t remember how I replied to that, but he did not get his wish.
I was really lucky that nothing really bad happened.
edit: Just a few months later, I was laughing with my friends, saying that it turned out I was just saving myself for college.
frosty
@germy: 39, so born in ‘25 or ‘26? Yes, not too young to have fought the war at 18. Grandpa looked older than 52 though.
ETA: FYWP forgot nym and email? It’s like going back in time.
Kay
I agree that the prosecution is doing a good job but so is the defense. I would just caution you not to underestimate the defense. Their client is horrible but they are competent – don’t confuse those two things. This is not in any way a hapless defense. The prosecutors are working so hard because they have the burden, blah blah, but also because they’re not underestimating the defense.
Benw
Ahmaud Arbery’s murder wrecks me. That sweet kid was out for a jog and those fuckers chased him down and killed him and the fucking cops were going to let them walk.
I hope Chauvin is convicted. I fear even a hung jury is going to lead to violence, which is totally understandable but always hits the wrong folks and neighborhoods the hardest.
Spanky
The “one bad apple” analogy is useless when what you’ve done is taken a shit-ton of bad apples and thrown them all into a barrel labeled “Police Department”.
#NotAllCops … maybe. It’s hard to prove it ain’t so.
trollhattan
@Kay:
The historical record is that juries side with the cops. The prosecution must overperform to counter this reality and I’m in no position to opine whether that’s occurring here.
raven
@Kay: Proving intent is going to be really hard.
Kathleen
Sigh.
Kay
All they need to do is introduce doubt and they made some headway there, IMO, with the line of questioning having to do with the drugs and they did that against a very strong prosecution witness, which means to me that he has good defense counsel. They salvaged some of that and that’s all they need to do.
Another Scott
@SiubhanDuinne: A retired hippy colleague lived in LA in the ’60s and had stories about being hassled by the cops there. There weren’t too many Joe Fridays-types on the force back then, either.
:-(
It’s good that a critical mass of politicians are seemingly finally realizing that policing is broken in too many ways in the USA. Relatedly, recreational pot will be legal in VA this July (details on legal sales, etc., to be hashed out (heh) by 2024 or so). NY State legalized it as well.
We can change these bad systems – quickly, if we have good people in place. But these bad systems aren’t going to change themselves.
Cheers,
Scott.
cwmoss
@UncleEbeneezer: When Chauvin goes to prison, he deserves the same consideration of his personal safety that Jeffery Dahmer was given.
WaterGirl
@frosty: Unless you get a new computer, or a new hard drive or system board or something that makes WP think you got a new computer, or you came to BJ in a private thread (so cookies are not saved), or you cleared your cookies, WP should not forget your nym and email.
Kay
@trollhattan:
Well, just watching the prosecution’s case won’t get you there because it always looks like they’re just whomping the defense up before the other side goes. The two sides are doing two completely different things- the defense isn’t proving him innocent- they don’t have to.
WaterGirl
@cwmoss: Both are monsters, but one is in uniform.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Glad you weighed in on the quality of the counsel because I trust your opinion, and the legal analysts covering the trial seem to be all over the map on that question! (Haven’t been able to watch the trial myself, so all I’ve seen are clips here and there.)
cwmoss
@Almost Retired: Hello, fellow longtime lawyer! (I’m not almost retired; my goal is to retire by the time I’m 80 if I’m still alive, and the mark of retirement success will be if I can afford to eat fancy, name brand cat food instead of greasy generic.) Only jurors have to consider all the evidence, blah blah blah… The rest of us on the sidelines, even lawyers, can make whatever snap judgments we want. And my snap judgment is that Chauvin should rot in a cell.
Ruckus
@UncleEbeneezer:
They didn’t do nothing. They protected their fellow officer from being stopped. If he’s a murderer – and he is, they helped him murder George Floyd.
Kay
@trollhattan:
But IMO juries attribute more credibility to prosecutors than they do to defense lawyers, so this is little different. When I started watching it was jarring to hear the police witnesses refer to Chauvin as “the defendant”. He is of course but that’s not the usual order of things. This has some switch ups which makes it even more unpredictable, and they’re all unpredictable.
germy
Will chauvin testify in his defense?
frosty
@WaterGirl: It was on my iPhone SE so none of the above. I’m not worried even though I see it happened again below. I’ll turn it off and on again and we’ll see.
thanks for the response! You’re really on top of taking the FY out of FYWP.
Felanius Kootea
I hope Chauvin is convicted but I think that depends on whether there are members of the jury who have come to the case with a predefined idea of what they’ll let a cop get away with.
I once served as an alternate on a jury for a DUI case where the cop definitely lied (video footage that the defense was able to find contradicted what he and his partner had written about the defendant). It ended with a hung jury, with one person voting not to convict the defendant. After the case ended, I was allowed to speak with the jurors who actually deliberated. It turned that half the jurors were bothered by the police officers’ lies, and initially, six were against convicting the defendant. However, five allowed themselves to be persuaded that the lies didn’t matter because cops are overall decent and noble people, after the case dragged into its eighth day (it wasn’t supposed to be a lengthy case). Only one person stuck to his guns in the end.
In other post-Trump era news, Huntington Beach California is having a KKK rally this Sunday. That man really unleashed something.
frosty
@WaterGirl: Awaiting moderation. I must have mistyped something.
Omnes Omnibus
@germy: it is almost always a bad idea.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
Just my opinion, but the stretch yesterday of the cross of the (very good) prosecution witness, the physician, where defense were trying to make drug ingestion a possible cause or contributing factor went well for the defense, as well as it could with such shitty facts for them, hence the state’s vigorous objection and the judge allowing it and then immediately reversing and making them rephrase as a hypothetical.
trollhattan
Texas, taking their infrastructure shortfalls seriously. This should be a big step forward.
Next up, fixing Covid-19 by making classroom prayer mandatory.
Ruckus
@AndoChronic:
The MPD already practiced de-escalation. Just not in the way you define the words. They de-escalated George Floyd. They de-escalated him from living black man, to dead.
oatler.
Can Biden break up their union like Reagan did with the air-traffic controllers?
WaterGirl
@germy: They say it is beyond unlikely, well into “shocking” territory.
WaterGirl
@frosty: Thank you, let me know if it happens again.
hueyplong
It’s Appomattox Confederate Surrender Day. This trial is an indication of how slow and incremental the progress has been since Grant was taken off the case.
WaterGirl
@frosty: Yes, you left the “y” out of your email address. I fixed it.
Steeplejack (phone)
Good McConnell cartoon.
geg6
@germy:
Very doubtful. It opens him up to all kinds of questions that won’t be asked if he doesn’t testify. He’d be an idiot to do it and his lawyer would be an idiot to let him. And his lawyer seems to me to be very much not an idiot, much as I despise him.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
Great line! My first laugh out loud moment of the day!
Martin
@Baud: And even that should be outrageous. There’s 7 videos of the full interaction from different angles and we still need this parade of expert witnesses because if I, white male™, spent 9 minutes choking a guy out on the street, the trial and deliberation would take maybe a day, and if I were black male™ maybe an hour (if I even survived the police response), but when a cop unquestionably does it, we need a parade of people to convince you that yes, what you see with your actual human eyes is happening, and even with that I think most people expect him to be acquitted of most charges or to not face prison time.
PST
@Another Scott:
I never heard about that before. The remarkable thing is that this discussion took place only three days after the killing. The evidence already looked so bad that Chauvin was reportedly prepared to accept a sentence of more than ten years, although he wanted to do his time in the federal system. The reason DOJ was in a position to nix the deal was that Chauvin didn’t want to risk a civil rights prosecution after what many would consider a sweetheart deal on the murder. I wonder if Chauvin had the same lawyer then. I doubt it can be comforting to be defended at trial by someone who advised you to plead guilty and do ten years.
Another Scott
@Steeplejack (phone): I liked this one about Manchin (WP via JuanitaJean).
Manchin in the lions’ den
Cheers,
Scott.
Roger Moore
@germy:
I think he would be crazy to do so. That doesn’t mean he won’t, but if he does I’m sure it will be against the recommendation of his lawyers.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
Link doesn’t work for me.
Betty Cracker
O/T, but since we’re discussing the justice system, there was a high-profile sentencing in Tampa yesterday for a kid who accidentally killed a 25-year-old woman and her 1-year-old as they were crossing a street. The kid, age 18 at the time, had graduated from high school two days prior, and his parents gave him a Mustang as a graduation present.
He and a friend in another car were racing on Bayshore Blvd., which is an iconic waterfront road along Tampa Bay. The young mom and her baby had just stepped into a crosswalk (and so had the right of way) when the kid slammed into them and killed them both instantly. A horrible accident.
This happened three years ago. The friend of the kid who ran over the mom and baby — the guy in the other car that was racing — was also charged and cut a plea deal for 6 years in prison. I’m surprised he was charged at all, tbh, much less received significant jail time. The kid who was driving the Mustang, now 21, was sentenced to 24 years in prison yesterday.
Now, if it had been my child and grandchild that dumb kid killed, I’d want the little punk to rot in jail forever. But as an unrelated citizen, and as someone who has been a teen and raised a teen, it seems overly harsh. Kids don’t have good judgment. Science and common sense tell us so. I can’t see any reason to put that kid in jail until he’s in his mid-40s. It seems like a terrible waste.
germy
@Roger Moore:
He’s been scribbling notes through the whole trial. That made me wonder if he was preparing his own testimony.
Maybe he’s just writing a book….
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
I wonder if his lawyer has told him he will quit if he does, using something like “Your honor, I respectfully resign from the case as my client has decided that he needs to testify in his own defense, and I can’t be involved because the evidence is overwhelming and he wants to open with the phrase – “Your honor, I did what everyone says but I’d like you to listen to my defense.” “
Another Scott
@Another Scott: Linky fail – sorry.
Manchin in the lions’ den.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: Happy to hear it. I’m sure my mom would not have found it so funny. :-)
WaterGirl
@Martin: Nice rant.
Betty Cracker
@Another Scott: Good cartoon, but IMO, it would more accurately portray the situation if it were American voters being lowered into the den BY Manchin instead of Manchin rappelling toward the danger. He’s not risking his own ass. He’s risking ours.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: I fixed your comment above, too.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Terrible tragedy. Was everybody white?
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: The victims and the Mustang driver were white. Not sure about the friend who got the plea deal.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
It is a terrible waste.
But.
He killed a woman and her child because he was a fucking moron, doing fucking moron stuff. She didn’t deserve to die because he’s a fucking moron. Also most teens know it’s insane to race, but some do it anyway, because they are fucking morons. The bigger question is why are they fucking morons, after all, not all teens drag race and not all humans ever learn that it’s stupid.
To your point, yes that’s a long time in jail and I don’t have a good answer for you as to why our system is so out of touch with reality. Derek Chauvin killed a man in cold blood, under the auspices of being a police officer who also should have known better, and I doubt that his sentence will be that long.
germy
Roger Moore
@germy:
I think a lot of defendants do this. I think it probably looks better to the jury than just sitting there staring.
Feathers
@germy: This officer has been charged with murder Off-duty Pentagon police officer charged with murder for allegedly killing 2
And he works for DOD, which had no trouble telling everyone, right away, that what he did was absolutely no included in their use of force regs.
One thing we need is a least a decade of no films or TV shows with cops who “take things into their own hands” in the name of justice. It has been so normalized. You wonder why so many people believe cops are always right, its a good place to look. And I love film noir, but the classic era did show that a crooked/rulebreaking cop is a bad cop.
And victim lawsuit payouts need to come out of police pension funds. Cops do the job for the pension. The early retirement and pension is why we have so many bad cops who don’t quit.
WaterGirl
@germy: Those don’t sound like “white” names to me.
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: Maybe keeping his head down and his eyes on paper is to keep the jurors from seeing the rage in his eyes as “how dare these people question me?” runs through his head hundreds of times a day.
He’s probably writing: “I wish I could kill these people, too”, 100 times.
The first paragraph is speculation. The second is not intended as a factual statement.
germy
Definitely. A strong incentive.
Rather than taxpayers footing the bill.
AndoChronic
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: My wife thinks Chauvin’s action was a form of initiation or conditioning for the new cops that were there. Perpetuate the “culture” as it were.
germy
@WaterGirl:
No, they don’t.
And the officer was off-duty, not in uniform.
Are we supposed to obey the orders of everyone who waves a gun?
J R in WV
@zhena gogolia:
There’s not only the sneer of contempt, but also intense satisfaction that he has Floyd, who he knew and disliked intensely, right where he has wished to have him.
And was doing what he had dreamed of doing after Floyd passed him his pay for working the club where they were both security. Almost a grin of happiness, that he has trouble keeping subdued.
Surely a monster. He would be safer in jail, really.
Betty Cracker
@Ruckus: Yeah, I totally get the anger at the kid, although it’s over the top here locally. Obviously he has to be punished for his hideously irresponsible and deadly foolishness.
I wish we (as a society) were more creative about how we punish, deter and rehabilitate people. Locking that stupid boy in a cell for a quarter of a century won’t deter any would-be teen drag racer. It won’t make that kid a better person. It won’t bring the victims back. It will just ruin more lives. It’s a sad thing all around.
Roger Moore
@Feathers:
Maybe we need some fictional accounts of cops taking things into their own hands in the name of justice only for it to go horribly wrong. There’s plenty of room for drama there!
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
Exactly. I see defendants do this all the time, often enough that I assume it’s something defense counsel tells them to do to make them seem more sympathetic to the jury, or at least to help them look less like a monster than someone who sits at the table glaring at everyone. Perhaps a defense attorney here might comment.
Steve in the ATL
@germy: “Dear Diary: today was another bad day—people keep saying mean things about me, but the guy I killed was black so why do they care? Life is so unfair! I may get Cinnabon if this stupid court thing ends early enough. Sigh. FML.”
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: It is a horrific situation, with the young mother and child killed. I agree with you that there’s scientific evidence for why teen brains can limit their ability to make good decisions.
24 years seems too long.
Steve in the ATL
@WaterGirl: may be reduced on appeal, once tempers have cooled
J R in WV
@SiubhanDuinne:
Chauvin’s lawyers have had an opportunity to go after every witness the prosecution has presented so far. They haven’t done very well at it, so far, either. If I was Chauvin, I would have trouble sleeping at night, for fear that I picked the wrong lawyers for my defense.
Thankfully, I am not Chauvin!
Di
I’ve been watching the trial in snippets. It’s so painful. I don’t know how his family is enduring it.
WaterGirl
@Steve in the ATL: We can hope. I never thought about sentencing being reduced as a result of appeals. I just thought the guilty verdict could (theoretically) be overturned on appeal.
Who knew? I guess that’s why we pay the BJ attorneys the big bucks!
WaterGirl
@Di: They endure the reality of it every day, trial or not.
Same for victims of gun violence. I saw this tweet on the same twitter thread as the awesome Biden video on TaMara’s thread:
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: Just heartbreaking. I sobbed when I saw this tweet.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I agree. US prison sentences are just too long. They need to be on a different scale completely. Ten should be on the high end instead of twenty because a twenty high end leaves six to nine as the low end and it needs to be somewhat logically proportional.
I know we’ve gotten away from this, to our detriment, really, but the caption of that case is not “victim versus defendant”. It’s Florida versus defendant. Making the victim a de facto party has led us astray.
The question isn’t supposed to be “how do we avenge this offense on behalf of Ms. Victim”. The State interest is broader, and it should be.
You end up with the flip side of it, too, where people say “but the victim doesn’t want him prosecuted”
No! All wrong! Not just about this victim! The offense is to all of us. We’re not measuring the value of the victim. This thinking will bring bad results.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
It would also help if we focused more on rehabilitation rather than punishment. You know, so when people got out of prison they weren’t ready to become productive members of society rather than going straight back. Also, we could try to measure how well we were doing at rehabilitating people and release them early if we thought they were ready.
SWMBO
@Betty Cracker: I invite you to go back to https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-02-23-vw-26111-story.html
His parents did everything they could to get him out of it. He killed or maimed 4 people while racing his SECOND Corvette and driving underage. His parents had his legal minority status changed so they wouldn’t be financially responsible for the settlement.
Yeah, kids do stupid things but they have to have someone paying for this bullshit to occur. This kid’s parents ought to lose their house and bank accounts over this.
Twenty four years for killing 2 people isn’t that bad. When he gets out, he’ll still have enough time to get a job and work 20 years to retirement. Maybe the MPD will hire him.