As I have said elsewhere, you didn’t impeach and try Trump because you thought the Republicans would be swayed by fact and duty to convict, they are a lost cause. You impeach and try Trump because we are still a nation of laws and he broke them all.
Not calling witnesses is on the fucking Dems, though, the wankers. But now, we as a country, are done with fucking Trump. He’s the Republican’s problem now.
Azhrie139
Oh god I wish that were true. Fascism 2024 here we come…
Nicole
Lindsey Graham changing his vote to call witnesses made it clear it wasn’t a good idea, as he certainly isn’t doing anything that benefits anyone other than Lindsey Graham. The GOP would have used it to gum up the works and make sure the Democrats didn’t get anything passed and while Trump skating on this 2nd trial won’t cost them 2022, not getting Covid relief passed sure would.
Just Some Fuckhead
Oh my fucking christ, I just fainted dead away. If only there was some way to censor your heretical opinions.
OzarkHillbilly
You sure about that?
japa21
I was gone all day and just looked at the weeping and condemning of no witnesses. What a bunch of crap. Would I have liked to see witnesses. Yes, I would have, but the vast majority of Americans wouldn’t have . It might have titillated us, but would have been useless, and possibly counterproductive in the long term.
But yes, the GQP owns Trump now. I no longer worry about Trump. I worry more about some other authoritarian coming along and succeeding where Trump failed. Not even sure that a conviction would have made any difference.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Nicole: Lindsey Graham’s vote for or against witnesses was numerically insignificant.
MattF
I think Sasse is right here:
McConnell’s attempt to move the ‘Trump problem’ to the judicial branch only underlines the failure of the legislative branch to do its Constitutional duty.
Uncle Jeffy
The problem now resides with law enforcement officials in Georgia, New York, and the Southern District of NY. Let’a hope they do their duty.
debbie
The McCarthy-Trump screaming match is in the official record. It absolutely proves dereliction of duty which confirms there was incitement. Other witnesses would have taken up time that will be better spent on bringing this country back to where it was before Trump trashed up the place.
namekarB
Well as long as this thread is about opinions, then mine is the Dems made their case and really dragging this on with witnesses would not materially affect the outcome. The case that the House Managers presented paints an ugly portrait of 45 that will stick to him for the rest of his life and beyond
Ajaby
I have to agree with Nicole at #2. Witnesses wouldn’t have meant shit. No Republican was going to change his mind because a witness said something profound. The reality that Trump did it is obvious to anyone with a working brain cell. Getting Biden’s relief package passed is a hell of a lot more important and will make a difference in 2022.
Ajabu
I have to agree with Nicole at #2. Witnesses wouldn’t have meant shit. No Republican was going to change his mind because a witness said something profound. The reality that Trump did it is obvious to anyone with a working brain cell. Getting Biden’s relief package passed is a hell of a lot more important and will make a difference in 2022.
dmsilev
Next step should be to continue the investigations. Set up a special House Committee to drag in every witness imaginable, spend the next year or three on testimony, etc. We have enough hints and indicators to know that there’s an awful lot of awful stuff that needs airing out.
And when the GOP complains, tell them that the hearings will be capped at the same total number of hours that went into Benghazi ‘investigations’.
Wyatt Salamanca
We’re not done with Trump until he’s been convicted for one of his multiple crimes and begins serving his sentence inside a prison cell.
Cameron
For those annoyed/depressed/frustrated by today’s DC performance art, I hope this will cheer you up:
https://evonomics.com/economists-agree-democratic-presidents-better-making-us-rich-eight-reasons/
Raven Onthill
He is President Biden’s problem now. Biden now stands in the shoes of Lincoln, with an insurrection to put down.
I hope he fills those shoes well.
Rob in CT
Things are still balanced on the edge of a knife. 50/50 Senate (with Manchin & Sinema refusing to axe the filibuster), thin House majority… we *barely* turned back ‘Murican fascism. This time. 2022? Well, it’s hard to see a victory there without getting rid of the filibuster. Even if we do, and even if we produce results, the way the Senate is apportioned/the way the political coalitions work nowadays means that we may have as much as 55%-60% popular support and yet barely be able to govern. This is an ongoing constitutional crisis and I really don’t have a strong basis for optimism.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
Only in the sense that “we are all Republicans now.”
Pete Downunder
Although I am a lawyer, I’m not an expert in this area and would certainly defer to someone who is, but I know of no barrier to the US Attorney for DC bringing incitement charges against T* and I think a DC jury would readily convict.
Ken
@dmsilev: Oh, surely somewhat longer than the Benghazi hearings? After all, 25% more American citizens died on January 6 than at Benghazi. 75% if you include the two officers who committed suicide, but perhaps those should have a special investigation.
craigie
But according to Benghazi math, we still need to investigate T***** another 25 or 30 times.
OzarkHillbilly
@Uncle Jeffy: Don’t hold your breath.
SFAW
@Raven Onthill:
I have a few suggestions on how to accomplish that, in case he needs help.
pat
@Nicole:
Exactly! Graham is on his way to Mar a loco right now to get his ass ….. ummm….
Not kicked, that’s for sure.
Mary G
I’m pissed at myself for missing the respite thread because the tech philosophy thread made me so sleepy. I prefer to believe that the brilliant minds of Raskin, Plaskett, and all the other impeachment managers know wtf they are doing and did not agree to cancel witnesses because Chris Coons wants to be home for VD. For fuck’s sake, they’ve been litigating tax returns with no luck for years now. Every little thing they tried to do would’ve been litigated, starting with whether witnesses had to go to what’s his name’s office in Philadelphia, all the way up to the Supremes eight different times on twelve issues per witness and this thing would have been an excuse not to do anything else.
DC Product Manager
Hopefully he’s the DC Attorney General Racine’s problem now.
dmsilev
@Ken: Oh, I didn’t say that we would be telling the truth when proclaiming that the hearings would be limited to one Benghazi.
oldster
I’m disappointed in the lack of a conviction, and disappointed in the lack of witnesses, but I am willing to believe that it is more important to get back to legislating and confirming.
Just get that COVID bill through on time, baby, and then get Breyer replaced by the youngest solid liberal you can find. Sacha or Malia, whoever’s younger.
More seriously, Joe Neguse did a terrific job, and he’s 36 years old.
Matt McIrvin
Trump getting banned from the major social media makes it a lot harder for him to just come back. For a normal ex-President it wouldn’t even be that big a handicap, but that was Trump’s way of effortlessly making “news” because the media folk paid attention to it. If Twitter lets him come back, that’s the time to worry.
Starfish
@OzarkHillbilly: I hope that remark will not age like that time when someone thought we had reached Peak Wingnut, but it might.
Just Some Fuckhead
@dmsilev: So if House committees had found any evidence of crimes in Hillary’s Benghazi murder spree, they’d have recommended those charges to the US AG for prosecution, right?
Gin & Tonic
@Matt McIrvin: My son, who follows this stuff very closely for professional reasons, told me the other day that the Twitter ban is considered permanent.
Omnes Omnibus
Eh, fuck that. Everything good that could have been accomplished by this impeachment was accomplished. No reason to drag it out any further. Let’s let everyone get on to passing legislation.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Rob in CT: We’re on Leahy fall away from losing our 51-50 majority in the Senate. He’s the new RGB.
HinTN
@Just Some Fuckhead: numerically, yes, but it was stupidly indicative of the GQP’s game. I’m pleased the House Managers saw the problem.
SFAW
@Wyatt Salamanca:
And then he wins in 2024 and pardons himself.
[Yes, I know he can’t pardon himself for state crimes. And, no, I wasn’t being serious.]
OzarkHillbilly
@Starfish: You and me both.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@OzarkHillbilly:
Well, then I guess we’re doomed
Gin & Tonic
@Just Some Fuckhead: Vermont law says the Governor has to call a special election to fill a vacancy not more than 6 months after that vacancy occurs.
Ryan
Maybe I’m the oddball out here, but we peeled 7 fucking republicans off their party. Mitt was likely, Lisa Murkowski was likely, but the rest? Don’t tell me Collins was fucking Concerned. Richard Burr? Damage was done.
SoupCatcher
Delegate Plaskett made a great point in the presser afterwards about witnesses: McGahn is still in court fighting against giving testimony in the first impeachment trial.
ruemara
They were already witnesses and bothsidesing it with 300+ witnesses lasting into a week was gonna do… what? Seriously, combine that with witness testimony needing GOP approval to be added to the record and this fetish for witnesses is strange.
Wyatt Salamanca
h/t https://lawandcrime.com/impeachment/senate-decided-not-to-call-trump-impeachment-witnesses-because-people-want-to-get-home-for-valentines-day-report/
OzarkHillbilly
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Probably.
OzarkHillbilly
Yes, but to who?
SFAW
@Ryan:
I was also surprised re: Burr, even with his impending retirement. He showed a lot more courage than Lamar “Fucking Coward” Alexander or Jeff “Another Fucking Coward” Flake.
Cheryl Rofer
This.
Kent
That is the point Raskin made in the press conference afterwards. All the GOPers who voted to acquit did so based on technicalities (can’t impeach an ex-president). They didn’t do it on the evidence. Witnesses would have not changed a single vote. I think he was right.
Just Some Fuckhead
@HinTN: There’s no evidence Democrats did anything as a response to Graham’s vote.
gwangung
@SoupCatcher: Yeah, that’s a point. Getting hostile witnesses to show up was gonna take a year, at least. You only want to drag this out if you could keep Trump’s malfeasance up in people’s faces CONTINUOUSLY….and I don’t think that could have happened for a year plus.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Didn’t the Vermont governor pledge to appoint a Dem?
MP
@Wyatt Salamanca: Yeah, that’s a really bad look. Any D Senator that says something like that aloud and could (unlike Manchin) conceivably be replaced should be primaried.
StringOnAStick
The R’s would have loved to drag this out as long as possible, hoping that Leahy or DiFi or another of our elderly D Senators would become incapacitated and thus cripple Biden’s ability to pass anything. Remember Ted Kennedy ‘s passing and how that impacted the ACA? They got the best they could get out of a political process, the judiciary is where this goes next and that’s where the teeth are.
tRump is already past his high water mark. From now on its legal problems coming to light, the drumbeat of more insurrectionists being scarfed up, their jail terms, tRump’s continued physical and mental deterioration, more corruption hitting the news, etc.
Strategy; it’s a thing.
Kelly
The Thin Black Duke
Calling witnesses is what the GOP wanted the Democrats to do. It’s a standard play from the Republican toolbox. Make promises you don’t intend to keep, bog everything down in the bureaucratic swamp so nothing gets done, employ your useful tools in the media to blame the Democrats for their failures. Fake “progressives” and confused liberals used to pillory Democrats for being fooled by the Lucy and the Fake Punt strategy. Now they’re blaming them for ignoring it this time?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
I agree. It would not have changed any R minds and witnesses would’ve taken months to get to testify. Plus, R’s would’ve wanted to call people like Hunter Biden and fuck up the process. It would’ve turned into a circus
LurkerNoLonger
@Ryan: You’re not the oddball. 57-43 shows just how messed up what Trump did was. It’s bipartisan.
TaMara (HFG)
MP
@Just Some Fuckhead: So here’s my question. I agree with you on this – control of the Senate rests on knife edge. Do you not think continuing the trial would have impeded the Dems ability to push COVID relief through, or do you think that even if it did impede relief, bringing in witnesses was more important?
debbie
From the NYT op-ed yesterday:
Only the stupidest (even MTG) will not be safe if this happens again.
Yutsano
@Mary G:
New Treasury secretary. If Congress made the request again I bet Yellen would FOLLOW THE FUCKING LAW and release them to Congress immediately. There’s nothing keeping any committee from releasing those returns.
Side note: fuck the fucking shitbag mob lawyer that is the IRS commissioner. Dolt45 installed him only to protect him from shit like this. I know it’s low on the list but I hope Biden calls him to heal over his refusal to release the returns.
Kelly
Great minds think alike ;-)
zhena gogolia
@ruemara:
Very strange.
Just Some Fuckhead
Plus they didn’t have a witness list lined up. They had Herrera Beutler and a likely hostile McCarthy and/or Tuberville. They never intended to call witnesses and only attempted to because of the breaking story about the McCarthy-Trump blowup that they should have already known about a month ago.
zhena gogolia
Calling the Democrats “wankers” after the brilliant performance by all the impeachment managers is really too much.
dmsilev
@Kent: That was clear from the moment they started mewling about the made-up ‘can’t hold trial after he left office’ thing. It was always excuse to do what they wanted to do, while trying to avoid defending him on the merits.
zhena gogolia
@TaMara (HFG):
I’ve been thinking of her today!
Just Some Fuckhead
You realize that creates a 50-49 Republican majority for up to 6 months, right?
Cacti
Never thought there would be 17 R votes to convict Trump.
But not calling witness was a mistake. Get everything on record.
Brachiator
The Republicans are the nation’s problems now. Mitch McConnell showed that he was a lying ass weasel who would violate rules and past policy to block Democrats and to get whatever he wanted.
And now, the Republicans have declared that they don’t give two shits about the Constitution or democracy itself. Hell, they are willing to put their own lives at risk so that a dipshit president can play at being a fumbling autocrat.
The Republicans are traitors. This is not hyperbole or metaphor. None of the Republicans who voted in Trump’s favor should ever hold public office again. But of course, unfortunately, they will.
This is where we are. Who knows what evils will continue to pour out of the Republicans’ vile actions.
schrodingers_cat
@Azhrie139: Is it cold this year in Siberia, new commenter predicting doom?
OzarkHillbilly
Your point is taken in so far as impeachment, but there is nothing stopping DEMs from keeping all of this “up in people’s faces CONTINUOUSLY” ala Benghazi/Hillary’s emails.
Well, nothing other than DEMs desires to actually accomplish a few things, like that will help them in ’22 or ’24.
HinTN
@Gin & Tonic: Yes, but it’s 50 – 49 until then.
Just Some Fuckhead
I was never for witnesses.
zhena gogolia
I don’t expect to see Trump in jail. I just don’t want him in political life any more. That’s all I ask.
Baud
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Leahy is old, but Sanders is the one who’s already had a heart attack.
The Thin Black Duke
@zhena gogolia: The clowns saying that watch too damned many West Wing episodes. They were also wondering why there wasn’t operatic music swelling in the background after the speeches were done.
MP
@Just Some Fuckhead: Sorry – I misunderstood. I thought in a previous thread you were pissed at the Dems once they walked away from calling witnesses.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Being a progressive blogger means criticizing Ds for faults real and imagined. M^2 does it pretty much everyday
ColoradoGuy
Good point on the real-world effects on calling witnesses. It wouldn’t change one GOP vote … it might have even lost one or two … and Mitch and Lindsay would have used it to stretch it out in order to delay and block the items on the Biden agenda. The public would have gotten bored by a visually uninteresting he-said she-said format dragging on for weeks, and this would have played right into Mitch’s hands.
Morzer
If Trump was going to be a problem only for the GOP going forward, you can bet that McConnell and the rest of the Insurrection, Sedition and Domestic Terrorism caucus would have convicted him and demanded a ceremonial pissing on his ashes.
As for the Democrats, they were never going to get a conviction, but they could have played their hand better. If you aren’t going to call witnesses, don’t fight to get them, win the fight and then … give up on the idea. That just looks weak and stupid.
ruemara
Oh, I’m doing, and in this case, producing a zoom read in March for a fabulous script based on Native Hawaiian life on the margins. Granted the author is white but I got in touch with his native readers who have approved the story. Let me know if you guys would like more info on attending. Big launch of the workshop for POC/LGBTQIA & Disabled – or all 3 if you want to be extra, like me – writers.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Nope, I want him in prison, penniless and broken.
WaterGirl
@Starfish: That was John Cole, I believe!
Morzer
@debbie: Could we stipulate a soundtrack running 24/7 in his cell consisting of the word “Loser!” infinitely repeated?
The Thin Black Duke
Really? To who? The idiots who watch Fox? The Bernie guys who hate Democrats more than the GOP?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Morzer:
They “gave up” because Lindsay Graham was going to sandbag the process
Just Some Fuckhead
@MP:
Not me. I think they made a good case with video. I think they could have done a better job post-putsch and I think they could have put McConnell in a tougher position if they’d have delivered impeachment articles sooner. In other words, completely reasonable positions that will doubtless enrage the “democrats can no do wrong” crowd.
Raven Onthill
@SFAW: what do you have in mind?
debbie
@Morzer:
I was thinking 24/7 broadcasts of The Apprentice with Schwarzenegger.
WaterGirl
@Kent: Nancy Pelosi was right when she said McConnell didn’t acquit because of the T**** was no longer in office bullshit, she said that was his EXCUSE, not his REASON.
Fucking cowards. And loyalty to party over country.
Plus Mitch was never gonna let it go down in history that the only president to be convicted in impeachment was a Republican.
zhena gogolia
@Just Some Fuckhead:
There’s a big difference between “democrats can do no wrong” and “I’m going to wait five minutes and find out the details before I call Democrats wankers.”
Just Some Fuckhead
Wow, and I thought *I had a low opinion of John.
Amir Khalid
@Pete Downunder:
Yes to criminal charges against Trump. Politically, Democrats need to hang acquittal om the Republican party’s collective neck.
Gin & Tonic
@Just Some Fuckhead: Only if Phil Scott appoints a Republican. I don’t think either of us knows whether he will.
Gin & Tonic
Need an “out of moderation” card on #95, SVP.
rp
You know what? I’m proud of the democrats. They did a great job and we should be thrilled that we have such impressive people representing us.
artem1s
there is no daddy strong man who’s going to come and save us all from the boogie man. this ‘trial’ was always performance art. we already saw witness after witness on tape showing us what happened. more isn’t going to result in Trump getting marched off to jail any more than in the first impeachment. justice isn’t coming in a single day or proceeding. it’s going to take decades to undo what the GQP has spent decades building.
the real prosecution starts with the criminal courts anyway. that’s been clear since Ford pardoned Nixon. and there is still plenty of ammo to use from now until 2022. every POC and woman waiting for the rest of the world to see the monsters living amount us know what this feels like. doesn’t mean we should piss on those who tried to do something. regroup and get ready for the next push.
WaterGirl
@Morzer: They asked to call ONE. It’s the other side that turned it into “we’re gonna call 300”. They didn’t get their one witness, but they did get her statement admitted into evidence, so they got what they wanted.
Did you listen to their press conference?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Baud:
Leahy is by all accounts a wonderful human being. He’s a massive Batman fan and has even acted in a handful of Batman franchise movies. Sanders is a piece of shit who covered up and then lied about Russian help in his 2016 primary campaign against Mrs. Clinton.
Both of them should have retired years ago.
The Thin Black Duke
@rp: Thank you.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Got it!
zhena gogolia
@rp:
Yes!!!!
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Muchas gracias.
karen marie
@Mary G: I was gobsmacked by vander leer (yes I know that’s not how he spells it) claiming that depositions are not beng done via zoom. I make my meager living transcribing the fucking things.
But McConnell – man, he’s got nerve claiming Dems should have held the trial prior to January 21 when he sent the senate on recess and refused to call the senators back.
Kropacetic
Man, am I happy I took some time to disengage.
Just Some Fuckhead
No. Work with me here. It’s math. If Leahy dies, we have 49 senators, Republicans have 50.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Just Some Fuckhead:
And then Scott appoints a Dem to fill the vacancy shortly after. Back to 50-50.
WaterGirl
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Scott is a republican, I believe.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): If that is indeed the case.
Almost Retired
When I was trying cases, one of the strategic decisions we often made was to NOT call anymore witnesses when we clearly felt the momentum was on our side. Witnesses can go sideways on you, or worse yet, bore the shit of the jury and make them forget the good stuff. As a Labor lawyer, I have no business commenting on impeachment law — it’s not like I’m a super duper impeachment expert like a Philadelphia personal injury lawyer with his own radio jingle and billboard – but the logic seems to hold here. At least to me.
Ajabu
@Ajaby:
Go away you fucking imposter. And stop copying my post verbatim. You know as well as I do that y and u are next to each other on the keyboard. No excuses!!
piratedan
I see it unfolding like this… sure, Trump and the GOP “walk” here. Now what happens is we get a housecleaning at DOJ, all of that Mueller stuff gets seen in the bright light of day and if they decide to pursue any of laundry list of perfidy, well gee, Stone and Flynn have already been pardoned, they can now be compelled to testify.
You start to follow the money and you start throwing people in jail for all of the other shit that went down. You take out the henchmen one by one, try them, jail them, make them flip on other crime. By the time they’e done, I suspect you may have also have a few incarcerated members of Congress. Give DC free reign to go after all the participants in the Capitol assault, DOJ can help..
I’m sure that there will be a commission or two to review what took place, THIS is not over. If the GOP wants to impale themselves to save Donald J Trump, rest assured he will not lift a finger in reciprocation. If we find out that Greenw, Boebert, Brooks, Gosar, Cruz, Hawley, Tuberville coordinated with the mob at the behest of the white house. Enjoy shopping for a lawyer.
moonbat
@Just Some Fuckhead: All of which has zero effect on the voting D number in the Senate right now if either of them should “retire,” one way or another. Senators, until VERY recently, have always been white haired old geezers, in case you haven’t noticed.
Which you note at #107. Apologies.
I’m glad some people here are finally remembering the razor thin margin Obama had to work with in 2009. Enough of this naivete talk.
Wyatt Salamanca
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Leahy was also big Grateful Dead fan and gave an interview to Ted Koppel on the Nightline broadcast that aired on the day Jerry Garcia died.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ajabu: Oh boy. Which one of you has the Evil Spock goatee?
Kropacetic
@WaterGirl: I wonder if some enterprising jackal to find a citation for the claim upthread that he would appoint a Democrat…::sigh::
Hey, Google…!
SFAW
@Ajabu:
Huh. And here I was thinking that “Ajaby” was just your Evil Twin.
ruemara
@Omnes Omnibus: I feel like we need to figure out who is the Skrull.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The entire senate are witnesses to the events of the 6th. Yes, yes, it always it the Dems fault they can’t make the Republicans stop being useless wankers.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Be a little unnerving if they both do.
And what of Lazarus?
Mike G
@Uncle Jeffy:
What’s to stop a federal criminal prosecution of Trump, besides political gutlessness? What he did was an actual crime. You can only impeach a Potus for outrages that aren’t criminal, but you can sure as hell prosecute them for crimes once out of office. Bill Clinton was. Congress being corrupt and ineffectual is all the more reason to do so.
Gin & Tonic
@Kropacetic: Not about Leahy, but same concept. Seven Days is reliable reporting about VT.
James E Powell
I’m pretty solidly in the “witnesses would not have changed anything” camp. I understand the people who disagree and i hope that we can do so respectfully and move on.
Our goals should be: 1) Make sure Biden is successful and is regarded as successful and 2) win the midterms.
NotMax
@Ajabu
Potatu, potaty.
;)
Baud
@Mike G:
Bill was never prosecuted. I think his bar license was suspended.
SFAW
@NotMax:
Patootie?
Just Some Fuckhead
We just lost the Supreme Court for a generation because of gerontocracy. We’re not living in the golden years of yesterday. Everything is on a knife’s edge where one must put ones own individual ambitions aside for the good of humanity.
Kropacetic
Link.
Kropacetic
@Gin & Tonic: Ha, thanks, same link I found. Only one, thanks for the opinion on their reputation, though.
NotMax
@SFAW
Sweet.
Also too.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I first read that as “persecuted” and I thought “yes, he was!”
Then I realized my mistake.
Ajabu
@SFAW:
Trust me. I don’t need an evil twin. I’ve got it covered…
Sure Lurkalot
I wonder about all the hand wringing that Trump will run and win in 2024 and we’ll become Orban’s Hungary.
We may become Orban’s Hungary but I can only see a less and less coherent Trump in 3 years. I know he has long life genes in his family but he’s definitely diminished and I hope he keeps snorting that Adderall.
Ajabu
@NotMax:
Let’s call the whole thing off.
sdhays
There are two things I would have liked to accomplish with witnesses:
Obviously, #1 is the most important. I’m hopeful that that will come out with Congressional investigations as well as criminal investigations conducted by various other agencies. And if and when that comes out, the Republicans will have acquitted Dump already, so I think the politics might actually be better this way (who knows?).
I’m irked about #2, but I’ll get over it.
Hoodie
Getting 7 republicans to vote for conviction is about as good as could be expected. Witnesses would not have added anything and likely would have led to endless republican gamesmanship. They all know he is guilty as sin anyway and just don’t care and don’t have to care. The problem, as Sasse alluded to, is the Congress. However, what Sasse doesn’t acknowledge is that’s they want it. The Senate is an outdated relic of white supremacy and compromise with landowners, and is now stands for little more than the arbitrary exercise of power based on neither democratic nor republican values. It’s filled with morons, greedheads and demagogues who are given far more power than their talents warrant. In fact, there was vastly more talent on display in the group of House Managers than you could find in the entire Senate cloakroom. If the Senate ever worked, it was only in sense that it didn’t conflict with the rest of the society when everything else was run by white males. If there was only some way to rid us of it or render it relatively powerless like the House of Lords.
Brachiator
@James E Powell:
I don’t understand these people. They just wanted to see shit on TV.
I would have liked witnesses, but I also know that it would not have changed anything.
Yep.
different-church-lady
@TaMara (HFG): Ugh — that’s not what you say when you’re going to succeed; that’s what morons say when they’re about to make the finals of America’s Funniest Home Videos.
Mary G
Here is a dog video:
Benw
I’m in the “Democrats did just fine proving their case without witnesses and this is not over since actual criminal investigations can still happen” camp.
I still do like everyone in the “Democrats should’ve got damning witnesses and hammered the Republicans even harder” camp, because their pool has a slide and they have veggie burger Fridays.
I’m looking forward our intramural softball game this summer
topclimber
I am glad that BJ’s Godfather has chimed in on this issue. I was way past deadline for responding to the Mister Mixed-Up crowd this AM and the “Dems caved on witnesses” moans.
First, in keeping with today’s theme of breaking with the fearless leader when he is wrong, SHAME ON YOU, JC. No mention of how Dem Impeachment managers met 90% of their goals, just a breezy assumption that calling witnesses to boost the score to 95% would offset the bullshit backlash that the GOP would make us endure for the privilege.
Second, our side made the clear case for impeachment and GOP enabling of it to all fair-minded individuals. Close enough to 60% of the people now see the truth, and we have a detailed record to remind them should they forget. If that isn’t enough to keep America democratic then I concede to the defeatists. Our country is screwed.
Third, I hereby channel Blogger Emeritus Kevin Drum with this bold contrarian statement: I see your witness whine and raise you one witness bluff. By pushing for witnesses they knew the Senate did not want, Raskin & Associates:
Snuck in evidence of Trump’s dereliction of duty re: Pence, thereby speaking to an issue that was not really part of their brief. By happy coincidence, said evidence reminded all Americans that Trump throws everybody under the bus.
Gave a platform for the one-third of House GOP members who are not card-carrying seditionists. Members of this group were lobbying news of the McCarthy-Trump meeting pretty hard. This could matter in the coming GOP Civil War.
Ended their day with seven Republicans voting for conviction.
I don’t see how the outcome is anything less than significant victory. It is not a game-ender for sure, but perhaps it is the start of a true game-changer.
Brachiator
@Sure Lurkalot:
Trump might try to raise a fuss, but I don’t think that he can ever win anything without serious cheating and voter suppression. And we will be ready for it.
I also think that the Republicans are fools. I wish that someone would expose what they think their plans are. Some of them voted in Trump’s favor even though they know that he was willing to let them die.
I wonder if some of them are so stupid that they think that they can let Trump loose and also block him from another run at the presidency if he is healthy at all?
But like I said, the Republicans are fools.
Just Chuck
@Just Some Fuckhead: Republicans have at least 40 which makes them the real majority. Does anyone honestly think we’re going to kill the filibuster? Tradition and fucking “comity” matters more to the Senate than the survival of this country.
sdhays
@Just Chuck: I don’t think it has anything to do with comity. Some Senators (stupidly, at this point) think that the filibuster gives them more personal power. It doesn’t make any sense, but I think they define “power” differently than I do.
Kattails
I’ve been dealing with a dreadful situation with dear friends of mine and haven’t been able to follow this well. Don’t know what to think. Surprised to see that Bill Kristol seems less inclined to beat up on the Democrats than some of us. I have fantasies about a huge class action law suit against Trump for his monumental mishandling of the COVID pandemic, plus his incitement to insurrection creating a massive trauma within the populace.
Trump is a monster. I can only hope that he gets attacked on so many fronts for so many well-deserved reasons that he just collapses in the face of it all.
sab
@Ajabu: I wondered which of you was the real thing.
And that is the first time in months that I hit n every time instead of m.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Just Chuck:
I remember making that exact point the night Warnock and Ossoff won. Sinema and Manchin want Republicans to have a veto over everything.
Morzer
@WaterGirl: Yes. Unimpressed. If you are going to fight on an issue, make sure you win and then make clear why it mattered. Putting one witness into the record achieves nothing. The Dems fought, won – and then gave the world and its dog the impression that they had caved in anyway, because they did not know how to use their victory. Bad strategy, bad politics.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I really hope such a commission happens. The Whitehouse Commission.
different-church-lady
My ever lovin’ god people, he WASN’T going to get convicted — too many sociopaths on the GOP side. (And now we know exactly who the quiet ones are, in addition to the obvious ones.) Witnesses would not have changed that, and it might have given the crazies a platform. ’22 is not going to ride on this.
West of the Cascades
@Kropacetic: Came up when there was talk of Bernie being Treasury secretary — also, IIRC, Vermont’s governor is elected to two-year terms, so the way for Scott to assure he is not reelected in 2022 is to appoint a Republican for Leahy. Knows which side his bread is buttered on. Link: https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2020/10/23/scott-says-he-would-replace-sanders-with-democrat-affiliated-independent
Fair Economist
@Sure Lurkalot: Orban was a very different story. He’d been in office before and had been a pretty ordinary center-rightist. Had he been running to become a dictator, he wouldn’t have won the Constitution-revising majorities he needed to become one.
debbie
@Mary G:
You might enjoy this:
The Thin Black Duke
@Morzer: As long as you reliably vote for the Democrats, it doesn’t matter what you think about what went down today, so it’s all good.
Morzer
@different-church-lady: The crazies have a platform already – three letters, starts with F ends with X.
schrodingers_cat
Democrats have managed to do what the opposition parties in UK, India and Israel have tried to do but failed, deny the autocratic demagogue a second successive term. I am not ready to write the epitaph of either the Democrats or democracy in America. Congressional Ds under Nancy Pelosi have earned my trust. And no I don’t think they are infallible.
I am not a constitutional lawyer so don’t have a professional opinion about witnesses. What I would have liked to see more of was why the Capitol was left defenseless, the last minute changes at the DoD and why it took so long for the National Guard to arrive. I think this story is far from over. Impeachment was just the first chapter in this saga.
different-church-lady
You guys realize you’re being more negative than LGM?
More negative than LGM.
Fair Economist
The witness business is a tempest in a teapot. Most of the country wasn’t following the trial closely and has no idea, and never will, that there was a flipflop on calling witnesses. Even those who are following the trial will forget about details in 10 days when the Senate is debating COVID relief. In 2 weeks it won’t matter to anybody.
guachi
Nothing the Democrats did was going to change the outcome. So not doing something because it wasn’t going to change the outcome isn’t an argument that makes any sense.
Democratic Senators saying, as was reported, that they wanted to go home for the weekend makes sense. Saying that witnesses would take time away from the nothing the Senate had planned next week makes sense.
raven
It don’t mean nuthin. . .
The Thin Black Duke
@different-church-lady: Being negative makes ’em happy, I guess.
mrmoshpotato
@SoupCatcher:
YES!!!!!
Also, read this thread.
Mary G
@debbie: OMG, thank you. So freaking cute.
guachi
@mrmoshpotato: LOL. “Entered into the record”? Seriously? That has no meaning in an impeachment trial. Senators can use any information they want, whether entered into the record or not, to make their decisions.
Ally
@zhena gogolia:
I agree. I’m so proud of every one of them. They did a brilliant job!
mrmoshpotato
@guachi:
Feel free to get on Twitter and yell at Jen if you like. I’m not her.
Ohio Mom
topclimber @142:
Kevin Drum retired from Mother Jones at the end of January and went back into old fashioned blogging. His one-man shop is jabberwocking.com.
sdhays
@schrodingers_cat: I completely agree. The most benign possible explanations are going to be terrible, and I doubt that the ultimate explanations are going to be benign.
Morzer
@The Thin Black Duke: Well, that’s certainly a… point of view.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Ohio Mom: What ever happened with his cancer?
Morzer
@different-church-lady:
Achievement Unlocked!
Morzer
@Just Some Fuckhead: It’s still in his system, but he’s holding his ground.
Just Some Fuckhead
lol
moonbat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Okay Mr. Logan’s Run, at what age should we require the elected officials on the D side to retire?
Morzer
@Just Some Fuckhead: Hey, I just wanted to commemorate the moment when the arc of history bent down and kissed the tip of my nose.
Ohio Mom
I spent the better part of my screen time the last day and a half looking at decorating sites and after reading this post and thread, I feel both caught up and vindicated.
I never for a moment thought Trump would be found guilty, and I trust the Democratic leadership. I assume they did what they could. As the old saying goes, this is a marathon, not a sprint and the fat lady hasn’t sung yet.
Citizen Alan
@moonbat: Honestly, everyone who votes for a pol of either party who is transparently too old and mentally incompetent to do their job does so in the expectation that their aides (who were hired to effectuate said politicians goals) would do all the real work anyway while that politician’s home state reaped the rewards of seniority. No one who voted for Strom Thurmond had any problems with him acting as a ventriloquist’s dummy for whichever aide was whispering in his ear. Ditto Thad Cochran, Dianne Fienstein, and probably Patrick Leahy.
topclimber
@schrodingers_cat: Preach it!
p.a.
Can we please stop giving the 7 credit? These were safe votes. If the there were 66 Dems, does anyone thing there would be one Rethug ‘guilty’ vote? Maaayyyybeeee Mitt…
Just Some Fuckhead
@Morzer: You’re killing.
@moonbat: Social security retirement age. If it’s good enough for the proles..
SFAW
@NotMax:
Or hot
Just Some Fuckhead
Wow, no idea how I got two replies in the same box but man is this comment box ever fucked up. Sometimes it opens up with one interface, sometimes an entirely different interface. Sometimes you can get out of a blockquote box and sometimes it just makes infinite blockquote boxes. Is this the best we can do?
The Thin Black Duke
@Morzer: Yeah, it is. What usually pisses me off about Democrats pissed off at other Democrats is when they piss away their vote by either voting third party or not voting at all, which is a piss-poor decision. While I might disagree with your blistering critique of the Democrats political strategy, you’re not putting the party into a deeper hole by not showing up at the voting booth, so I can respect that. You’re not an asshole, just somebody with a different point of view.
topclimber
@Ohio Mom: When you have been at it this long, like KD has at blogging, you are emeritus already. You just don’t know it.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Citizen Alan: Don’t forget about Jim Bunning who was literally demented (not to be confused with Jim DeMint, entirely different mental disorder) his last couple years in office.
moonbat
@Citizen Alan: I covered Jamie Whitten as a cub reporter in Mississippi and he didn’t retire until he was 85. But guess what? He was also chair of the House Ways and Means which meant he brought serious highway funding bacon home to the state every budget cycle. Mississippi would still be dealing with crumbling 2-way highways if it wasn’t for that old geezer being where he was when he was. The last of the blue dog Democrats from that state. Now they have know-nothing GQP knobs who do nothing for no one. I’d take an old Jamie Whitten any day over a R replacement weasel like Thad Cochran.
Morzer
@The Thin Black Duke: I’ve no time for the self-purifying fools who punish the American people by voting for a third party (or creating one, as some supposedly “moderate” Republicans are currently hinting at doing). I do think that the Democrats need to rethink their strategic approach and on the ground organizing. It’s not at all impossible that we lose the House in 2022 and that would be … unpleasant.
Just Some Fuckhead
@p.a.: Yeah, I think all seven woulda voted for conviction. And Cassidy isn’t safe. He just got a UNANIMOUS censure by the Louisiana GOP.
Another Scott
+1
(via froomkin)
Cheers,
Scott.
Morzer
I must admit I thought of our good bloghost when Trump’s lawyer described Ben Roethlisberger as the Secretary of State for Georgia.
Ohio Mom
Just some fuckhead @171:
Drum is still chugging along. The drugs he takes are working —every so often he posts a graph (natch) of the results of his blood tests and the numbers are where they should be.
When they start deviating, the docs adjust the regimen. That’s all that can be done, there is no cure (yet) for his type of cancer, just never-ending treatment.
He’s very matter of fact that the drugs are hard on his body. Which is why he decided to step away from paid work. But really, the new blog is exactly like the one he kept at MoJo. It doesn’t look like he is slowing down. He’s a lucky guy, he clearly loves what he does.
Dan B
@dmsilev: My feeling is there should have been witnesses but ZERO politicians. Cops who were injured and / or terrorized would be powerful. And they would put the GQP’ers in a position of having to smear the police.
The whole “impeachment” was Dems appealing to Dems and GQP’ers hating what the Dems were implying (laying out logically but the GQP’ers felt smeared.
When the P
GQP’ers testified we did not pay close attention because their arguments were in essence: We were in charge and RULERS must be obeyed. The Founding Father’s were father figures and wealthy white men, as it should be now, and forever. How dare you offend our superiority.
Police are seen as GOP friendly so testimony about their trauma would break the GQP narrative of Divine Right and Holy Intent.
In addition our brains are hard wired to discard nearly all data and logical arguments but our brains fire on all cylinders when we hear a story that has a tangible feeling of the details of place, conflict, and an aftermath that resolves, or doesn’t resolve the conflicts.
The Dem’s arguments were masterful but had little chance of moving the feelings of the majority of the public. It was never about convicting T%*#×. But it could have been about tying him forever to brutality towards cops. It could have left a feeling of the horror that this horrible man wants to unleash.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Ohio Mom: It’s never a good time to get cancer but now is the best time. One of the guys that works for me was diagnosed with stage 3 lung cancer a few months ago. He was approved for immunotherapy and put on Keytruda and damned if it isn’t already shrinking his tumors.
Ohio Mom
topclimber @185:
By that measure, Atrios must be the emeritus of the emeriti.
mrmoshpotato
@NotMax:
@SFAW:
Dipped or dry?
Kropacetic
I don’t know. They accrued R support throughout the process. Granted, we can’t know how much of that was due to the merits of the particular measures*. We can be damn near certain we would never have reached 67 and it’s possible the gains could reverse. No use getting lost in counterfactuals.
*Republicans, of course, are well-known for voting on a nuanced look at the merits of a motion and not just what suits their preferred end goal.
Ohio Mom
Just some fuckhead @194:
I think that’s what they gave Jimmy Carter for his brain tumor. Worked on him.
chopper
@Just Some Fuckhead:
phil scott gets to make an appointment until the special election. also, at least with regard to sanders, he came out and said he’d appoint a dem to his seat. scott supported biden in 2020.
JaySinWA
@Gin & Tonic: Considered permanent is doing some heavy lifting here. Facebook has its new review committee looking at their Trump ban currently. If they reverse it the Twitter ban will be under considerable pressure. Even if it is upheld for Facebook, I don’t have much faith in either company upholding the band
topclimber
@Ohio Mom: I often wanted to respond to Kevin’s blog, but the MOJO comment platform seemed MIA. Or was that me that was MIA?
Hopefully his new (old?) gig is more accessible.
Just Some Fuckhead
@chopper:
That’s great. But hoping a Republican will bail us out is a less preferable option to having a Senator who won’t keel over dead of old age tomorrow.
Another Scott
@Ohio Mom: Can I come sit 6-feet away from you? Masked, of course.
I’ve spent most of the day researching convection toaster ovens. Finally decided to take a chance on this one.
So, I missed the excitement as it was happening, too!
:-)
I think we’ll be Ok.
And Donnie and his minions? Something something wheels of justice something something.
Cheers,
Scott.
Citizen Alan
@moonbat: To be fair, Thad Cochran did get a lot of very impressive buildings constructed in Mississippi. All of them named after him, naturally.
Dan B
@Kent: The point is to tar T%#×&* with his disgusting depravity and how his actions caused grievous harm and emotional torment to Capitol Police officers. That is how this should be judged, not on how GQP Senators voted. If we’d gotten 17 GQP to convict and not filled the public with revulsion at the inhumane terror T brought down upon our “peace officers” we would have failed. Instead the eloquent and brilliant politicians filled all the slots thus making this a disagreement among elites
In mass communication you need to know the target audience. The GQP had their fingers in their ears. The broader public was waiting for stories about people like themselves.
Another Scott
@Just Some Fuckhead: Social Security isn’t a mandatory retirement age, as you know.
Sarkis Tatigian – 77 years of Federal Service.
Cheers,
Scott.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Another Scott: Yep, but it should be. Move people out of the workforce so the others can move up.
PST
@Ohio Mom:
I have a close friend with the condition, multiple myeloma. You’re spot on. There is no cure, and the drugs are very unpleasant, but they can hold the disease at bay for a very long time, with options available when one approach becomes ineffective. I have great admiration for my friend’s resilience. He accepts the limitations treatment imposes and keeps going with good cheer. I sense the same attitude in Drum.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: You need to buy this one!
Seriously.
Holds a 12″ pizza pan or pizza stone, and a 10″ x 10″ casserole, but has a small footprint.
I use mine 10x more than I use my big oven. Cole has the some one. We both LOVE ours.
NotoriousJRT
@Nicole: I think Graham fell in love with Trump – literally. I can see no other explanation for his utter collapse than he is besotted with Trump. Maybe he got a spanking along the way, and now that’s all he can think about.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: I remember you liking it a lot, and I strongly considered it, but we’ll see how the KA goes. :-)
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Dan B
@OzarkHillbilly: I would welcome a select committee to keep investigating Txxxx, if for no other reason to keep him back on his heels. And there are so many terrible things he did that can rapidly fade from public memory. Without some steady pushback from congress the monsters will swarm around Txxxx. Thwarting that is critical.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: It’s definitely flashier than mine, more modern looking. You’ll have to let me know what you think once you’ve used it for awhile.
dmsilev
@WaterGirl: I have the version of that without the convection fan, and it’s been great. Gets daily use as a toaster, plus lots of small-oven jobs as needed.
Peale
@Kent: also, if we’ve learned one thing, there’s no penalty for just outright lying to Congress. Or not showing up. Then what?
WaterGirl
@dmsilev: I love the convection fan on mine, but I cook with mine a lot. The one Scott is getting says it has dual convection.
Another Scott
Biden’s take:
Good, good.
Cheers,
Scott.
Wapiti
@MattF: Congress is a weak institution because Senators like Sasse are fucking gutless. Congress – led by honorable Republicans – could have stood up and stopped Trump’s overreach at any point in the last 4 years. Oh – but they couldn’t, because there really aren’t any honorable Republicans in the Senate, just worms like Sasse.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: Will do. :-)
(It’s replacing an old white Cuisinart convection toaster oven (which seems about 1/2 the size) that has been fine, but is showing its age. And is too small for pizza!)
Cheers,
Scott.
Punchy
@p.a.: If there were 66 Dems we would have filly-proof majorities, and thus an expanded court, strengthened ACA, proper voting rights, etc and the whole impeachment would be a who cares…
Jinchi
@Nicole:
Lindsay Graham is on all sides of every issue, so I don’t know how you can proceed based on his opinion.
I’m not going to second guess the decision now, but if the bargain was Herrera Beutler testifying for the prosecution that Trump rebuffed McCarthy’s pleas to call off the mob, versus the defense calling for testimony by …. Nancy Pelosi??
Well that sounds like it would have been a win all around for the prosecution.
catclub
@Dan B:
ALL the demands for tax returns and other documents.
moonbat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
So by that calculation you throw out E. Warren, Mazie Hirono, Chuck Schumer, Patty Murray…. You still want to make that the hard line?
Jinchi
This is a victory for the Democrats. I don’t think most people thought 17 Republicans would ever find a spine, and Trump’s conviction was a very long shot. But 7 Republicans is 6 more than I considered likely at the start of the impeachment process and it’s a far better result percentage-wise than they pulled off in the House.
catclub
@Brachiator:
 
Yeah, I wonder why they did not ask for 1 or 2, with limited time, and then match that for the other side’s demands.
trnc
@Dan B:
He’ll scream he’s the victim no matter what, so might as well give him something real to complain about.
Just Some Fuckhead
@moonbat: Yes. I’m sure some kind of grandfathering can be done to ease some of the transitional pain. This really isn’t rocket surgery. Do you need me to draw up the amendment now or can it wait?
Technocrat
I thought the Dems did presented a masterful, enduring case over the past few days. It was focused, and logical, and emotional. Just brilliant. I think everyone knows GOPers were never going to convict, so the entire purpose was to make the best case we could regardless of outcome. I think they did that and then some.
SFAW
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Please to kindly fuck off with that horseshit. Employers already look for ways to move out the higher-wage (i.e., older) workers, so that they can impress Wall Street and so on. They don’t need “help” from “well-meaning” proles.
Ageism (with respect to older workers) in employment is a thing, and has been for decades.
Maybe I should provide “helpful advice” on how the younger employees purportedly being “held back” are actually just lazy Millennials or Gen X-ers or Gen Y-ers, who, by getting moved up, are taking work away from oldsters who actually get the work done. Yeah, that seems about right.
dww44
@zhena gogolia: I so want that malign and malignant individual to spend some much needed time in prison. Before I depart this earthly coil. And, I’m not young either.
dww44
@Morzer:
As did I. Great minds and all that….
TriassicSands
As has been pointed out, calling witnesses wouldn’t have changed anything (including the opinion of historians about Trump’s guilt) except to have given the Republicans a chance to play at being the immature, corrupt little brats they are and call for scores of irrelevant witnesses. Fifty-seven votes for conviction say that Trump is guilty, just not subject to congressional punishment.
I don’t know why people keep saying this. Trump’s future irrelevancy is almost entirely in the hands of prosecutors and juries and it is far from certain either will come through. Trump has been a criminal his entire adult life and I don’t think he’s ever spent a day or even a minute in jail.
The other unknowable in the Trump equation — the media. If they choose to hang on Trump’s every twitch and tic, then we’ll be hearing a lot from and about him. It remains an open question.
TriassicSands
I sent Bill Cassidy the first uncritical email I’ve sent to a Republican in over a year. (Romney was the last — before that I can’t remember one). I thanked him for showing a little integrity; something extraordinarily rare in the Republican Party.The Louisiana GOP’s censure of Cassidy says everything about them — entirely negative — and nothing about him. It’s amazing just how corrupt almost every Republican official in America is today.I was surprised that there were seven Republican votes for conviction. Trump’s guilt is so obvious that anyone with a shred of integrity had to vote to convict. The low point of the entire affair may well have been the post-acquittal speech that Mitch McConnell gave before the Senate. In a city where hypocrisy is far more common than integrity, McConnell may have set a record, a standard that will never be surpassed. With Mitch, we know it’s not stupidity, it’s pure corruption.
Note: Historically, in a presidential election, a 57%-43% result would be considered a landslide.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Pittsburgh Mike
@japa21: Yup, exactly — witnesses would have let the Republicans say: “The Democrats care more about continuing to hound Trump than fixing vaccine distribution or the boosting the economy.” Politically, it would have been a *disaster* to call witnesses, and let the Republicans spin this out. It could have cost Biden his chance to get anything done at all, by killing the momentum behind the $1.9T recovery bill.
The House Managers’ presentation will remain a devastating condemnation of Trump. There was no defense.
And there *will* be civil lawsuits, with discovery. Seven people are dead. 140 police officers were injured. 535 lawyers, half of them Democrats, were chased from their place of work, along with their staffs.
Trump has cash, he, and his disgusting children instigated a riot, and there are witnesses who can testify that he refused to stop the riot when he could.
Geminid
@Pittsburgh Mike: This Senate trial is only the beginning. There is already reporting that trump still fears criminal prosecution over January 6. He knows he’s guilty, of crimes up to and including felony murder. And his financial crimes could occupy grand juries in almost any state in which he has done business. President Biden will be appointing over 50 new U.S. District Attorneys in the coming weeks, and Lindsay Graham delay of Merrick Garland’s nomination will end soon. Garland and his people will have a lot of work to do, and it will be a while before we see results. But I don’t care if justice is slow so long as it is sure.
Geminid
@Pittsburgh Mike: Yes, there will be civil suits and discovery, similar to the one brought by those injured in the Charlottesville rally of August 11 2017. Attorney Roberta Kaplan* and a group called Integrity First for America will only bring this action to trial this year, but just fighting it has severely impacted groups like the League of the South and Richard Spencer’s Identity Evropa. Civil action is potent tool against the organizers of the insurrection, and the Charlottesville case can be a template.
*attorney “Robbie” Kaplan also has represented Mary Trump and E. Jean Carroll in their litigation with trump.
Big Mango 大芒果
The vote gives cover for the Senate to nuke the filibuster.
new voting rights laws are a must have.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SFAW: That was such a dumb take. A mandatory retirement age is no more ageist than a mandatory drinking age or a mandatory driving age or a mandatory age before one can hold office, for instance.
Charlie
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Why “wankers”? Does anyone believe that witnesses would have made a difference? Any number of witnesses? Witnesses would have postponed the predictable outcome. And postponed the Senate’s attention to Biden’s agenda. And I think the Big Bad Wolf is teetering on the edge of the cliff. Go Fulton County DA and NYS and NYC equivalents!
evodevo
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yeah…that was us, in KY…all the future MAGAts thought he was just fine….and look at what we got as a replacement lol
Uncle Cosmo
@Just Some Fuckhead: Demostrating, for the Nth time in this thread, that you are in fact “just some fuckhead,” with the accent on fuckhead.
Yeah, Mr Logan’s Rant, let’s just discard all the accumulated experience, insight, and wisdom of old folks so that the young’uns can have the chance to make all the mistakes the geezers learned to avoid decades before. With a pandemic and a climate crisis and late-stage-capitalism-driven fascism to deal with, that sound like a helluva plan. Accent on “hell.”
O/t, FWIW, the percentage of overcredentialed political imbeciles that infest this blog – including most specifically most of yinz busy dislocating your shoulders patting yourselves on the back for having a law degree** – boggles the mind.
** You know why the abbreviation for Doctor of Laws and Juvenile Delinquent are the same (J.D.)? Because they aren’t all that different morally, ethically, or intellectually. Except that one can argue that “juvenile delinquent” is an oxymoron, on the grounds that anyone defined as too young for full membership in society cannot at the same time be “delinquent” of civic duties.
chopper
@Just Some Fuckhead:
for now it’s reality which all we got to deal with
SFAW
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Glad to see you admitting it.
You really have no idea what you’re talking about, and your whataboutism is comparing apples and wombats.
Forced retirement of productive workers (because, hey, let somebody else have a shot, okay?) is different from setting a bar such that the (theoretically) under-qualified do not get moved up the ladder “just because.” [ETA: Or, in the case of drinking ages, setting it at a point where you kids can (theoretically) handle alcohol a little more judiciously.]
But thanks so much for your extremely useful/useless and inciteful comment.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SFAW: Keep going on about how terrible old people have it. It just makes you look entitled and out of touch.
Age
Median Net Worth
18-24
$8,216.04
25-29
$7,511.60
30-34
$35,111.76
35-39
$55,519.42
40-44
$127,344.55
45-49
$164,196.96
50-54
$171,320.07
55-59
$193,548.76
60-64
$228,832.56
65-69
$271,805.38
70-74
$258,531.36
75-79
$272,976.15
80+
$235,192.87
KenK
No witnesses is fine with me. The prosecution case was pretty solid after two days of evidence. Hell, it was pretty clear after one day. GOP had their minds made up going in that they weren’t going to convict trump. Now, we hang this shit on them in the 2022 and 2024 election cycles.