Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

All your base are belong to Tunch.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

The willow is too close to the house.

Shelter in place is one thing. Shelter in pants is quite another.

Han shot first.

Tick tock motherfuckers! Tick fucking tock!

We still have time to mess this up!

This blog goes to 11…

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Shocking, but not surprising

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Call the National Guard if your insurrection lasts more than four hours.

This is all too absurd to be reality, right?

Everybody saw this coming.

This is a big f—–g deal.

This fight is for everything.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

This blog will pay for itself.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

I swear, each month of 2020 will have its own history degree.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Nothing Is Possible

Nothing Is Possible

by | 203 Comments

This post is in: 

The Post is out with an “exclusive” headlined Justice Department, FBI debate not charging some of the Capitol rioters.  Here’s the meat of the piece:

Due to the wide variety of behavior, some federal officials have argued internally that those people who are known only to have committed unlawful entry — and were not engaged in violent, threatening or destructive behavior — should not be charged, according to people familiar with the discussions.

“Some officials” – is there any better example of why anonymous sourcing shouldn’t be used for pieces like this?  And there’s this:

Nevertheless, these people said, some in federal law enforcement are concerned that charging people solely with unlawful entry, when they are not known to have committed any other bad acts, could lead to losses if they go to trial.

“If an old man says all he did was walk in and no one tried to stop him, and he walked out and no one tried to stop him, and that’s all we know about what he did, that’s a case we may not win,” one official said.

Because, as we all know, an old white man just can’t commit a crime!

Under the headline, they also quote some criminal defense lawyers who say that if Trump ordered the insurrection, that might be a defense. Oh, and another anonymous source wonders if there are enough resources in the DC Circuit to try all these people.

This whole thing is a reeking pantsload of minor concerns when they’re judged against prosecuting people who took part in an armed insurrection with the aim of overthrowing a legally elected government.  That said, expect more of this shit.  The desire to keep these “good white people gone astray” from experiencing the same consequences that your average black man or woman would be expected to receive is a strong one, and unfortunately some anonymous sources in the Justice Department are sympathetic to the insurrectionist cause.

Reader Interactions

203Comments

  1. 1.

    Gravenstone

    Pretty sure we dispensed of the “I was just following orders” defense 75 odd years ago…

  2. 2.

    Omnes Omnibus

    They aren’t going to charge everyone who was there.  If you were expecting that everyone there was going to be headed to prison, you are going to be disappointed.

  3. 3.

    MattF

    One guy claimed he went into the Capitol to look at the art. Makes sense! Lots of museums on the Mall! Even art museums!

  4. 4.

    sab

    Urk. It should be common knowledge that when you push past Capitol Police barricades, break windows and enter with a mob that bad legal things will happen. Everyone identified should at least face some legal consequence. That is how the rest of us live our lives.

    Mistermix: who “reported” that Washington Post piece? They mostly all have bylines.  If they won’t identify their sources I at least want to know who the weasily reporters are so I can face their next story with skepticism.

  5. 5.

    Baud

    Under the headline, they also quote some criminal defense lawyers who say that if Trump ordered the insurrection, that might be a defense. Oh, and another anonymous source wonders if there are enough resources in the DC Circuit to try all these people.

    This is BS speculation by people not in the know.  But Omnes is right.  There’s no riot where everyone gets charged.

  7. 7.

    smith

    Unfortunately, the malfeasance of some Capitol Police who waved them through will bolster some of these defenses. Nevertheless, I think it’s desirable to charge them all, then drop prosecution of the weakest cases. Judging from the reactions of many who have been arrested so far, a lot of these deplorables thought they were playing a video game or participating in reality TV. Making them face the possibility of real consequences could quickly concentrate their minds.

    Also, considering how often peaceful left wing demonstrators get get slammed by the criminal justice system for exercising their Constitutional rights, it’s not a good look to remind us, yet again, that the legal limits on your behavior are somehow different depending on your political views.

  8. 8.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @sab: The leaders and the people who did publicly dumb and/or damaging shit will get nailed.  The others will get a really good scare.  As Baud said (mutual hat tip society), no one ever charges everyone in a riot.

  9. 9.

    E.

    I’ve trespassed plenty, back in my radical environmental days. Usually I was trespassing on a National Forest area that had been “closed” the night before, or the hour before, I was arrested for standing on it. And I’ve spent plenty of time in jail for it, too. But then, I was an Earth First!er protesting vast clearcutting schemes on National Forest land in Idaho (by standing on it and asking them not to cut it down).  In other words, a criminal. These people who broke into the Capitol building, they were innocents.

  11. 11.

    MisterForkbeard

    @sab: If all you can conceivably charge them with is Unlawful Entry, then fucking charge them with it. It’s okay if you lose. Did they enter unlawfully while a riot was going on? Then okay! That’s what they get.

    This is not hard. If you have evidence they did worse or were cheering on rioters, charge them with more.

  12. 12.

    Viva BrisVegas

    Isn’t there still the matter of a murder to be considered?

    A person or persons bludgeoned to death a police officer in the middle of a crowd of rioters. The murder must have been seen by dozens of people at least.

    The murder was facilitated by those who broke into the Capitol building. It occurred while every unauthorized person in that building was engaged in acts of trespass, riot, vandalism, theft, assault, and last but not least sedition.

    If the DOJ can’t build a case from that, then a new DOJ is needed.

    Charge everybody who can be identified, with littering if need be, then work your way up the food chain. Somebody will talk and the juries will listen.

  13. 13.

    Mike in NC

    @MattF: One guy claimed he went into the Capitol to look at the art. Makes sense! Lots of museums on the Mall! Even art museums!

    This is true. I’ve been to several of them. I just never noticed the broken glass on the floor and clouds of tear gas and screaming mob of white supremacists out for blood. Minor distractions. Time to move forward and not look back.

  14. 14.

    WaterGirl

    For what it’s worth, on the PopeHat /Josh Barro podcast last week PopeHat said the “oh, but Trump told us to do it” excuse is not going to fly.

  15. 15.

    tybee

    “If an old man says all he did was walk in and no one tried to stop him, and he walked out and no one tried to stop him, and that’s all we know about what he did, that’s a case we may not win,” one official said.

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse.  Book ’em.

  16. 16.

    randy khan

    Granted, it is a defense lawyer’s obligation to come up with whatever possible to keep your client out of prison, but “just following orders” isn’t really much of a defense to criminal behavior even when you’re actually subject to someone’s orders.

    Even though I think every single one of them was acting on Trump’s desire to stop the counting of electoral votes, and was in fact committing a much worse crime than criminal entry. I am sympathetic to the point that old white guys who just walked into the Capitol might be hard to prosecute, at least in most places.  (D.C. is not most places, though, and I’d sure consider that before I made any decisions.)  But if I were thinking of going that way (a) I would spend a lot of time – a *lot* of time – making sure that’s all they did before I decided to let them go; and (b) I’d still look for something else to get them to plead and have a criminal record for it.  Some of those old white guys very well could do something else later, and you’d want to be able to point to a pattern of conduct.

  17. 17.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @tybee:

    ignorance of the law is no excuse.  Book ’em.

    IANAL, but I think it often is, but they call it intent.

  18. 18.

    Nora

    I thought the code of ethics for prosecutors required that they “do justice” and not just try to win cases. Saying at the outset, “Oh, we won’t win so we won’t bother” is, in my opinion, unethical behavior on the part of the DOJ, especially in cases like this.

  20. 20.

    Van Buren

    I’m no psychologist, but it seems to me that if people who invade the Capitol don’t face any consequences, then others might get the idea to, IDK, invade the Capitol?

  22. 22.

    Wapiti

    Yeah, this was a lynch mob. The sheer number of people affected the Capitol Police response, even if they were just present. The insurrection definition includes “assists”. People died. Because the mob was assisting the most violent rioters at the front of the mob.

  23. 23.

    sdhays

    I find it quaint that people in the FBI are wringing their hands over the idea of bringing charges that might not stick. They haven’t seemed to be so concerned about this with the BLM protesters.

  24. 24.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Could someone point out to me where there has been a riot where everyone who has arguably committed a crime was charged?  People calling for that are calling for something that doesn’t happen and hasn’t happened.

  26. 26.

    RepubAnon

    @Baud: Here’s an idea – have the folks raising that defense testify to that claim at Trump’s impeachment.  Sounds like incitement to me…

  27. 27.

    quakerinabasement

    I say charge them all. If some of the lesser offenders want to cop a plea, well, maybe there’s room for leniency there.

  28. 28.

    MattF

    The questions of who intended what are clarified in this NYT report about the attempt to install a new AG in the last weeks before Biden’s inauguration. My guess is that the Instigator-in-Chief figured he would have a better chance at blowing up the Congressional certification than at subverting the Justice Department.

  32. 32.

    debbie

    @sab:

    It would be nice if they were made to appear before a judge to explain themselves. Then the judge could dismiss whatever they were charged with.

  34. 34.

    trollhattan

    Every one. Every bloody one, to a person, who entered the Capitol is to be charged. There is no wriggle room “I just got swept up in the mob” or deflection “I was just acting as citizen journalist.”

    If there were there, charge them, try them, let them defend themselves in front of a jury.

    Every one.

  35. 35.

    smith

    One big difference between this and a mob that just gets out of hand is the fact that violence was planned prior to the event, and part of the planned violence was murder. As someone else remarked on an earlier thread, this was not so much an insurrection as it was a planned lynching. The criminal justice response should reflect the gravity of that.

  36. 36.

    trollhattan

    @E.:

    “Trespassing while hippie” is a concise federal statute. Except horns-and-pelt* guy I didn’t see any hippies on the 6th.

    *Guessing hippie isn’t the look he was after, but he clearly never attended any Burning Man or Rainbow People events.

  37. 37.

    sab

    @debbie: I don’t want them treated worse than us, bad precedent. Also don’t want normal people tied up with jury duty for minor charges. I do want them scared: participation in storming the capitol is not safe behavior.

    And I want the killers charged. That capitol policeman, that woman casually trampled. And the leadership.

  39. 39.

    debbie

    @trollhattan:

    Certainly the cops and the veterans should be charged. And especially that guy who attacked and beat the cop with the American flag.

    This American Life had an interview with one of the African-American cops who survived. The verbal abuse alone ought to rate some sort of charge.

  40. 40.

    mary s

    I would like to see the law enforcement experiences of people of color come closer to those of white people than the other way around. But . . .

  41. 41.

    trollhattan

    Also, too, pretty ironic the FBI that failed to properly identify and communicate the threat of the 6th is now unsure of how to proceed against the exact people their inaction enabled to commit the sedition and murder.

    I want to see congress kick Wray to the curb. Ten years? I don’t think so.

  43. 43.

    cmorenc

    Because, as we all know, an old white man just can’t commit a crime!

    Well, I’m an older white man, and I haven’t been arrested for anything in decades. That’s how lots of us geezers know that’s true :=)

  44. 44.

    Wapiti

    @trollhattan:  This. Probably everyone who crossed the barricade broke the law, but the ones who entered the Capitol are the worse offenders. Imo, start with the very worst, and work down the line as you can get them through the courts. Eventually lesser offenders will plea out or everyone on all sides gets tired and it will all peter out. But don’t start by negotiating it all away. More than 10,000 anti-police brutality protesters were arrested this past summer. The great majority weren’t charged, just screwed with for hours before being released. So at least make the motions that fascist protesters who attack the US Capitol will be treated as seriously as protesters who blocked the roadway somewhere or who couldn’t get through a police line before curfew.

  46. 46.

    trollhattan

    @debbie:

    That was a hair-raising interview. With all he has seen in his lifetime he was rattled by what he saw and heard that day.

    NB I can’t recommend this episode for any dog lover. Or jump in after skipping the first ten minutes. Trust me.

  49. 49.

    Immanentize

    There is a really simple answer. Charge them all, even with unlawful entry.  Then dig deeper into all of their social media, then I appropriate offer a misdemeanor plea.  This is not even model rocket science.

    Sorry, but I can’t stick around….

  50. 50.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Okay, have fun working yourselves into a frenzy about an unsourced, speculative article from the Post.

  51. 51.

    sab

    @debbie: Arresting, questioning, charging, hiring lawyers focuses normal peoples minds. Some of these people seem to have long records doing stupid drug and small crime stuff when they emerged from their mother’s basement. Others seem to be misled sorority girls. It takes more to focus the minds of the first group than the second group.

    Oathkeepers are a whole different category

    ETA Damn. We drove off all the actual criminal lawyers from this thread. Imm and Omn just signed off.

  53. 53.

    wvng

    A large number of people were involved in assaulting police, either at the front or the middle or back of the mob that was collectively shoving them out of the way. We’ve all seen the faces of the terrified police. My assumption is that anyone who went into the Capitol played some role in that.  At a minimum, why should these people be treated any differently than the post curfew BLM protesters who were rounded up and packed together in cages for the night?

  54. 54.

    Gvg

    This mild mannered white woman wants them charged hard because I am afraid of them and their cohorts. They have been pushing the limits for years with intimidation of opposing political views and open carry with the excuse they need the right to kill any politician they don’t like. I already never put up political signs on my home or car. I am careful who I talk to. These people are really out of control and the justice department needs to use this opportunity to make an example of them. Not only is it best for our government, it is best for ordinary law abiding citizens. Lawlessness spreads. Stop it now.

  55. 55.

    taumaturgo

    The gaslighting has begun. $2,000 checks = $1,400 checks. Looking forward not backward = free get out jail card for traitors. Federal $15 minimum wage = won’t fully kick in well into 2026. $50k student debt forgiveness turned into $10k which change to zero forgiveness and deferral of payments until September. Reconciliation is a bad word, bipartisanship is great = Keep the filibuster. While the broken healthcare system continues to add victims to his long tally, 66% of Americans report that this year they won’t be able to afford any healthcare premiums. The Democrats choose not the revamp the system but to follow the recommendations of America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) and the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association to shuffle higher subsidies to overflow their coffers. Cherry on top for war profiteers, Biden perpetual war team is recommending to keep most of Trump’s foreign bullying sanctions in place and get this, increase the number of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

  56. 56.

    sdhays

    I just don’t see the problem with charging everyone who can be proved to have entered the Capitol with unlawful entry, at least. I don’t have an opinion on the sentence, other than it should be fair.

    If some people on the outside slip through the cracks, that’s one thing. But entering the Capitol should be treated as a red line.

  59. 59.

    trollhattan

    @wvng:

    Investigators armed with all the stills and videos available from that day, time-stamped and location tagged, will have the ability to place hundreds of individuals at the scene and dozens, if not hundreds in the act of committing violence and other felonies. And since the very act of being there is a crime (IIUC) it’s going to be very difficult to wriggle out.

    I do not know how damning it will be to have your phone tracked inside if there’s no photographic or eye-witness verification.

  61. 61.

    Citizen Alan

    @zhena gogolia: Just pie the wanker. I toggle his name once everu week or so to see if he’s still a fool and then toggle him right back off again. It’s as pointless to engage with him as it is the average Trump trash.

  63. 63.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @taumaturgo:

    $2,000 checks = $1,400 checks

    Oh come the fuck on. 600 + 1,400 = 2,000. Nobody ever said it was going to be a brand new fucking check, dude. Who’s gaslighting who?

  64. 64.

    Ohio Mom

    I don’t expect them all to find themselves standing before a judge, but I’d like them all to have the experience of worrying that might happen.

    To make that happen, some of the ones who were just following the others, lemming-like, will have to be charged. It will be arbitrary, so what?

    Just like when the state trooper pulls aside one speeder and the rest of us ease up on the gas pedal and start driving a little more carefully. Deterrence has its place.

  66. 66.

    wvng

    @Gvg: I agree completely. Living in WV, I assume that any display of Biden/Dem stuff will, in the current environment, lead to angry shouting, at a minimum. About 8 years ago I took my Obama sticker off the car after someone slapped a kkk sticker on it.

  67. 67.

    NotMax

    Justice denied is injustice approved.

    That said, time in the slammer for each and every case, for the entire spectrum of charges leveled, is neither feasible nor desirable. That’s why we have instruments such as probation and fines.

  71. 71.

    WaterGirl

    @trollhattan: I’m with you on Wray.  He shouldn’t be gone today, but i hope he’s gone within 6 months.

    He may not have committed terrible acts of commission (that we know of) but it sure looks like a lot of acts of omission, and I don’t think he’s been doing his job the way he should.

  72. 72.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @zhena gogolia:

    @Baud:

    TBF, I’m honestly not happy about that $15 minimum wage taking 5 whole years to be phased in if that’s true. A lot of working people are hurting. The Fight for Fifteen movement was wanting this since 2012 or so, back when $15/hr had much more buying power than it does even now. Imagine how much less it will in 2026. That’s 14 years later

  75. 75.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud:

    Nah. They were inspired by Navalny’s arrest and Navalny’s film about Putin’s dacha.

    I’m sure they envy us getting rid of Trump, at least temporarily, but a lot of stuff has been going on in both Russia and Belarus. It’s been building for a long time.

  78. 78.

    Elizabelle

    @trollhattan:   My guess WRT Wray is that he will not serve out his full term, and no firing him now because he may need to take the fall once even more information comes out.  Could take months; could take a year or even two.

    I still want to know what is going on with the NYC FBI Bureau, too.

  82. 82.

    NotMax

    Has anyone seen anything (beyond rumor) about new appointments to and/or a housecleaning at ICE?

  83. 83.

    Philbert

    Appeasement got us here. FFS charge them all enough that they get a scare, maybe dismiss without prejudice to keep them awake. Make sure it shows on their rap sheet to take into account next time.

  86. 86.

    Hoodie

    @Omnes Omnibus: The riot was several thousand people, most of whom did not enter the building.  Those are the folks you don’t charge.  Charge the ones who did enter, because you have to be a complete moron not to know that you were not supposed to do so.  Plea bargain them down to a fine if you can’t prove they did anything violent.  The fine is justifiable for their role in helping the violent ones inflict injury and property damage because the number of people overwhelmed the cops, who otherwise would likely have frog marched the goons out of the building.  Make it like a parking ticket for the others, but scare the shit out of them first.

  87. 87.

    scav

    Yeah, well apparently, it’s just that to “real” ‘merkans — that is to say lawn-order reeepublicans — the Capitol, even the Capitol in session,  just isn’t as important as any old 7-11.   Break windows adjacent to any snack food, well, there gotta be consequences.  Merely walking by some peoples’ house in St Louis, now there’s a reason for them to justifiably haul out the firearms.  Not so much for actually entering the “People’s” House accompanied by violent mob.

    They do run true to type.

    Eta.  They definitely need something entered on their permanent records for entering the building.  Not so worried about fine or jail time if whatever. But this behavior should follow them, officially.

  88. 88.

    prostratedragon

    Between surveillance technology and the fact that this riot took place in a confined area, it should be easier than it often is to identify individuals, so I’d expect more to be charged, even if only with simple trespass sort of things. I’d bet the courts can handle it somehow.

  90. 90.

    Baud

    The Justice Department revealed new charges against a Texas man who allegedly participated in the Capitol attack and posted online death threats against Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and a US Capitol Police officer.

     

    Garret Miller of Texas faces five criminal charges stemming from the Capitol insurrection, including trespassing offenses and making death threats. Miller allegedly tweeted, “assassinate AOC,” according to court documents.

  91. 91.

    banditqueen

    So the insurrection is now a riot. Thus, the “white”wash. And by the way, even if it’s “unsourced”, it just shows how entrenched racism is that an article like this is published without comment in the WAPO.

  92. 92.

    debbie

    @Hoodie:

    Beatings were going on outside the building. Someone built a gallows outside the building. There were no innocents among the rally attenders.

  94. 94.

    Wilson Heath

    The Post turned off the comments on that story.  They must have been getting metaphorically brutalized, requiring serious action.  Unlike, say, the actual brutalization of Capitol police.

  97. 97.

    rikyrah

     

    Both of my sisters are vaccine skeptical, but I have been working on them. My sister here got her first shot today 😊🙏🏿

  99. 99.

    different-church-lady

    When did “gaslighting” start to mean “I don’t get everything I want immediately?”

  101. 101.

    banditqueen

    @Baud:  No, not really. A riot may be sparked by a specific event, but it’s not planned. And the damage is indiscriminate. The Capitol was targeted as that’s where the electoral vote count took place–and their plan was death and kidnapping–not a riot but an insurrection. And now a racist whitewash.

  104. 104.

    Steeplejack

    Even if some people "only" trespassed and weren't violent, they contributed to the size and chaos of the crowd, which prevented law enforcement from effectively controlling them. They also provided cover for the violent individuals. Law and order, amirite?
    https://t.co/PYsIECB77l

    — Asha Rangappa (@AshaRangappa_) January 23, 2021

  105. 105.

    Elizabelle

    Jackals:  who actually read the WaPost article?  This is a real problem when something is behind a paywall.

    Because it is 28 paragraphs — mistermix pulled out three — and way more nuanced.   Here is the full passage, from which mistermix pulled one paragraph.

    Federal officials estimate that roughly 800 people surged into the building, though they caution that such numbers are imprecise, and the real figure could be 100 people or more in either direction.

    Among those roughly 800 people, FBI agents and prosecutors have so far seen a broad mix of behavior — from people dressed for military battle, moving in formation, to wanton vandalism, to simply going with the crowd into the building.

    [the mistermix paragraph:] Due to the wide variety of behavior, some federal officials have argued internally that those people who are known only to have committed unlawful entry — and were not engaged in violent, threatening or destructive behavior — should not be charged, according to people familiar with the discussions.

    Other agents and prosecutors have pushed back against that suggestion, arguing that it is important to send a forceful message that the kind of political violence and mayhem on display Jan. 6 needs to be punished to the full extent of the law, so as to discourage similar conduct in the future.

    There are a host of other factors complicating the discussions, many of which center not around the politics of the riot, but the real-world work of investigators and prosecutors, these people said.

    The Justice Department has already charged more than 135 individuals with committing crimes in or around the Capitol building, and many more are expected to be charged in the coming weeks and months. By mid-January, the FBI had already received more than 200,000 tips from the public about the riot, in addition to news footage and police officer testimony.

    “There is absolute resolve from the Department of Justice to hold all who intentionally engaged in criminal acts at the Capitol accountable,” Justice Department spokesman Marc Raimondi said in an email. “We have consistently made clear that we will follow the facts and evidence and charge individuals accordingly. We remain confident that the U.S. District Court for Washington, DC can appropriately handle the docket related to any resulting charges.”

  108. 108.

    Steeplejack

    How would you expect defense lawyers to spin it?! “Holy shit, these are serious charges, and I’ll be lucky if I can spare my client the death penalty!” //

  109. 109.

    NotMax

    Once – and once only AFAIK – a Chyron on MSNBC displayed the word “spree.”

    My blood pressure must have reached quadruple digits when saw that.

  112. 112.

    J R in WV

    @trollhattan:

    Every one. Every bloody one, to a person, who entered the Capitol is to be charged. There is no wriggle room “I just got swept up in the mob” or deflection “I was just acting as citizen journalist.”

    This!! Those people weren’t “just trespassing” — they were participating in an illegal insurrection in which people died.

    Sedition, riot, illegal entry will do to hold them, but if they are on video in the vicinity of windows being smashed, people being beaten or killed.

    Everyone guilty of insurrection, rebellion, sedition doesn’t have to be at the front of the mob, all those cheering behind the violent ringleaders up in front  are assisting, aiding, participating in the insurrection, riot, rebellion, sedition. If they get to spend a few months in jail awaiting trial, that’s a good thing.

    I’m even OK with allowing them to plead guilty and get a long probation with strict limitations on using the Internets, wearing an ankle bracelet, being closely monitored. If they never threatened people on line. If they threatened office holders with violence or death, they need to serve time. In a real prison, so it shows on their record forever.

  113. 113.

    Elizabelle

    Jackals:  who actually read the WaPost article?  This is a real problem when something is behind a paywall.

    Because it is 28 paragraphs — mistermix pulled out three — and way more nuanced.   Here is the full passage, from which mistermix pulled one paragraph.

    Federal officials estimate that roughly 800 people surged into the building, though they caution that such numbers are imprecise, and the real figure could be 100 people or more in either direction.

    Among those roughly 800 people, FBI agents and prosecutors have so far seen a broad mix of behavior — from people dressed for military battle, moving in formation, to wanton vandalism, to simply going with the crowd into the building.

    <em>[the mistermix paragraph:] Due to the wide variety of behavior, some federal officials have argued internally that those people who are known only to have committed unlawful entry — and were not engaged in violent, threatening or destructive behavior — should not be charged, according to people familiar with the discussions.</em>

    Other agents and prosecutors have pushed back against that suggestion, arguing that it is important to send a forceful message that the kind of political violence and mayhem on display Jan. 6 needs to be punished to the full extent of the law, so as to discourage similar conduct in the future.

    There are a host of other factors complicating the discussions, many of which center not around the politics of the riot, but the real-world work of investigators and prosecutors, these people said.

    The Justice Department has already charged more than 135 individuals with committing crimes in or around the Capitol building, and many more are expected to be charged in the coming weeks and months. By mid-January, the FBI had already received more than 200,000 tips from the public about the riot, in addition to news footage and police officer testimony.

    There is absolute resolve from the Department of Justice to hold all who intentionally engaged in criminal acts at the Capitol accountable,” Justice Department spokesman Marc Raimondi said in an email. “We have consistently made clear that we will follow the facts and evidence and charge individuals accordingly. We remain confident that the U.S. District Court for Washington, DC can appropriately handle the docket related to any resulting charges.”

  115. 115.

    Hoodie

    @debbie: Those are individual acts that should be prosecuted as assault and battery and I don’t doubt those folks will be arrested if they can be identified.  However, most of the people outside were not engaged in that.  I was just talking about the “innocent” people who went into the building.  You need to make an example of them, and entry into the building is a good dividing line for charging (probably also easier to identify them).

  116. 116.

    sdhays

    @WaterGirl: Yes, that’s exactly what I mean. We know just about everything there is to know about Peter Strzok and Lisa Page (none of it particularly interesting), but somehow the NY FBI field office intervening in an election to put a Russian asset in the White House hasn’t been deemed important enough to investigate.

  117. 117.

    Elizabelle

    Incidentally:  when you see the article text broken into separate boxes:  those were both one long passage, with no cuts from me at all.

    I probably should have used the “Text” formatting box to make that more clear.  I did not cherry-pick.  Wanted you to see the surrounding article.

    Other points:  defense attorneys may argue that Trump invited, incited, or “gave permission” for his followers’ actions.  Although who knows what Trump will look like, on the other side of his impeachment trial.

    From the article:

    “Prosecutors have other options. For rioters with no previous criminal records or convictions and whose known behavior inside the Capitol was not violent or destructive, the government could enter into deferred plea agreements, a diversion program akin to pretrial probation in which prosecutors agree to drop charges if a defendant commits no offenses over a certain time period.”

    This seems less ideal, but it’s still court proceedings and expense for the sauntering around crowd.  Also some sort of supervision following the plea.

    This is a huge caseload, and could be reduced by spreading it out among other state’s federal courts, although DC does not appear inclined to do that.

    It’s still early days, folks.

  119. 119.

    Elizabelle

    @sdhays:   Great idea.  I always forget about Apple News, and it’s got content from the WaPost, NY Times, WSJ, Bloomberg, a lot of good papers …

  122. 122.

    J R in WV

    @Baud:

    The Justice Department revealed new charges against a Texas man who allegedly participated in the Capitol attack and posted online death threats against Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and a US Capitol Police officer.

    This.

    Anyone who posted threats of violence AND can be identified inside the capitol needs indicted for their violence and insurrection at a minimum.

    They were part of a violent lynch mob, with a gallows ready and waiting outside. This wasn’t a musical theater event, it was a violent insurrection, an attempt to overthrow our government.

    Certainly anyone inside the capitol and present for a violent attack on any LEO should also be indicted, tried, and punished. With both digital evidence and video evidence, it should be child’s play to get indictments!

  123. 123.

    piratedan

    man, lots of great and relevant points made in the thread… after consuming them it seems like the DOJ and the FBI need to get up to speed on the “new normal”, or perhaps what we would all like to see established as the new normal….

    1. do we expect them to get everyone… no, if they weren’t carrying a phone and if there’s no concrete corroborating evidence, i.e. a picture or someone turning them in via a tip line… then yeah, those people will skate.
    2. For everyone else that we do have a pic of and a cell phone confirmation of their phone being in the Capitol… you charge them.  Give them a mark on their permanent record.  It gets to be the Scarlet Letter… why?
      1. because they entered the grounds of the Capitol unlawfully and as far as I know, that’s a crime
      2. that they did so while THOUSANDS of others were doing so, during the time when Congress was confirming the election results… this isn’t just some lark, some protest.. can I understand getting “caught up in the moment”… fine you were caught up in the moment.  Here’s your subpeona, now you get to LIVE THIS MOMENT.
      3. To not charge these people will undercut the very essence of this new administration.  We have all seen that the law is extremely unevenly applied in the country.  If we’re ever going to find a new balance, it needs to be seen PUBLICLY, that the law should be applied fully.
      4. Context, we’ve all seen the BLM protests where rubber bullets, tear gas has been used and people pulled off the streets, tasered, beaten and arrested without proof of any kind of lawless behavior other than just being at a protest.  Here we have wanton destruction of public property, THE MOST PUBLIC of properties, during the exact crucible of time where the peaceful confirmation of our public election is held.  In short, THIS SHIT WILL NOT STAND.  Anyone at Justice or the FBI who gets weak kneed at this moment is guaranteeing a replay down the road.  This has to stop and it has to stop now.  I see NO REASON to reward these people’s ignorance and stupidity of being “in the wrong place, at the wrong time”, after windows were smashed and doors forced and ongoing battles are taking place between police and the “uninvited”.  Sorry, not fucking buying it.
      5. If you want to keep these people out of jail if you can’t prove anything else other than unlawful entry, then you fine the ever loving shit out of them and maybe consider a few thousand hours of community service.
  125. 125.

    Subsole

    @taumaturgo: You only care about all of that as an excuse to shit on people for rejecting the Old Man of the Green Mountain.

    Your glee just oozes off the screen.

  127. 127.

    Elizabelle

    @CatFacts:   I never take anybody’s word on what’s in an article.  Always want to see the underlying information myself.  Paywalls make that really, really hard with some publications.

    I think the WaPost might consider putting the insurrection-related articles outside the paywall, to try to combat the spread of disinformation and gotcha headlines.

  132. 132.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Subsole: I suspect that one’s arrested political adolescence may date back to the Old Man of the Corvair. Like him, I remember when there wasn’t a dime’s worth of difference between Bore and Gush, and four years of Bush-Cheney would awaken The PEOPLE and usher in the Presidency For Life of Dennis. Dennis was BERNIE! before BERNIE! even had his regular weekly call in with Tom Hartman, for you younglings

  134. 134.

    Steeplejack

    @Wapiti:

    More than 10,000 anti-police brutality protesters were arrested this past summer. The great majority weren’t charged, just screwed with for hours before being released. So at least make the motions that fascist protesters who attack the US Capitol will be treated as seriously as protesters who blocked the roadway somewhere or who couldn’t get through a police line before curfew.

    Agreed. There are several, if not numerous, examples of peaceful protesters being kettled and/or rounded up, such as at Republican Party conventions, then charged with minor offenses that don’t hold up but put the “offenders” through the bureaucratic wringer for hours or days. At least let the insurrectionists—and “tourists”—experience that.

  138. 138.

    NotMax

    Color me unshocked.

    An intelligence agency has just confirmed that the US government does indeed buy location data collected by its citizens’ smartphones. In a memo sent to Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and obtained by The New York Times, the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) admitted that it buys location data from brokers — and that the data isn’t separated by whether a person lives in the US or outside of it.
    [snip]
    We’ve been aware for a while that government agencies have been using data brokerages to get around having to obtain a warrant for location information, but some legislators are working to close the loophole. Sen. Wyden, who requested the memo be made, has a bill called “The Fourth Amendment Is Not For Sale,” which aims to “ban the government from buying information that would otherwise require a court order or a warrant.” Source

  139. 139.

    sdhays

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: That would be novel defense. “I’m sorry, your honor, but due to COVID, this was the only place I could see art on the National Mall, and I got so excited I lost my head.”

  141. 141.

    zhena gogolia

    Kayleigh's posting her shrieking worry that Dems will force convents to pay for birth control, proving:1) She has no real problems2) She thinks nuns shouldn't date3) She's never seen Agnes of God4) She watched The Sound of Music and said, "Liesl could've been happy with Rolf" pic.twitter.com/SqjpwQWWb0— Paul Rudnick (@PaulRudnickNY) January 23, 2021

  144. 144.

    Geminid

    Regardless of who among those inside the Capitol are prosecuted, I want to see the ones beating on cops outside the building prosecuted. And organizers and financial backers, possibly with felony murder charges. And I hope investigators take a close look at Republican Congressional staff who may have helped the mob.

  148. 148.

    Elizabelle

    @NotMax:   Maybe remind folks how to do that.  And Apple News is good too, sometimes, as a source of the full article.

    I have a sub, so no problem.

  152. 152.

    Elizabelle

    Here’s the second long excerpt from the Post article, by Devlin Barrett and Spencer Hsu.

    The primary objective for authorities is to determine which individuals, if any, planned, orchestrated or directed the violence. To that end, the FBI has already found worrying linkages within such extremist groups as the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and Three Percenters, and is looking to see if those groups coordinated with each other to storm the building, according to people familiar with the investigation.

    Prosecutors have signaled they are looking to bring charges of seditious conspiracy against anyone who planned and carried out violence aimed at the government — a charge that carries a maximum possible prison sentence of 20 years.

    But even as Justice Department officials look to bring those types of cases, they privately acknowledge those more determined and dangerous individuals may have operated within a broader sea of people who rushed through the doors but didn’t do much else, and prosecutors will ultimately have to decide if all of those lesser offenders should be charged.

    Officials insisted they are not under pressure in regards to timing of decisions about how to handle those type of cases. For one thing, investigators are still gathering evidence, and agents could easily turn up additional photos or online postings that show a person they initially believed was harmless had, in fact, encouraged or engaged in other crimes.

    Investigators also expect that some of those charged in the riot will eventually cooperate and provide evidence against others, and that could change their understanding of what certain people said or did that day, these people said.

    [the mistermix quote:] Nevertheless, these people said, some in federal law enforcement are concerned that charging people solely with unlawful entry, when they are not known to have committed any other bad acts, could lead to losses if they go to trial.

  158. 158.

    banditqueen

    The more narrow definition of insurrection v the much broader and less useful “riot” applies here. There are numerous cogent and detailed comments that outline that 6 Jan was insurrection and emphasize the racism that is at the core of this ongoing horribleness: the response on 6 Jan would have been lethal had the insurrectionists been nonwhite, and the crackdown post-insurrection would have been brutal. Now the looser term “riot” is applied instead of the correct insurrection and this will frame the discussion going forward, and the willingness to apply benign motives (“I just wanted to see the art!”) to some of the “rioters” is–yes–racist. Disgusting.

  159. 159.

    Spanky

    Biiig caveat here that i\I haven’t read any other comments. So …

    This reeks of someone floating some big-ass trial balloons, and I hope that it is not only pushed back on, but stamped out and killed with fire. As of now, all we know is that “some people say”. Let us insure that it never goes further than that.

  160. 160.

    JMG

    Random vent: My son is a fine man, much better in so many ways than his father. But he has one flaw. When he is at leisure, or in a leisure time activity, such as right now when he’s making an Asian dinner, he listens to podcasts. Incessantly. And good gravy are they boring! Right now he’s listening to one babbling about J-Lo at the inauguration. Naturally, the hosts can’t just say, “J-Lo, that’s cool.” They gotta seek meaning. My meaning was to leave the kitchen and turn on the horse racing channel on cable.

  161. 161.

    zhena gogolia

    @JMG:

    I cannot stand podcasts. I can’t put my finger on why. I’m kind of immune to radio in general, but especially talking radio. Podcasts just seem like really boring radio talk shows to me.

  162. 162.

    NotMax

    @Elizabelle

    Outside my wheelhouse. Did find this on a quickie search.

    I use Firefox with an add-on which allows me to toggle javascript off or on with a single click. Dunno if there’s a similar on-off switch extension for Safari.

  164. 164.

    The Pale Scot

    @debbie:

    This American Life had an interview with one of the African-American cops who survived.

    Which one is it? the two listed after 01/06 do not seem to be it

  168. 168.

    RSA

    @Elizabelle: In the Safari menu (far left) choose Preferences. A window will pop up with tabs along the top; choose Security. In the pane that appears, you’ll see the option to enable or disable Javascript.

  169. 169.

    TS (the original)

    @Elizabelle:

    who actually read the WaPost article?  This is a real problem when something is behind a paywall.

    I read it & came to comment on same – to discover it was already covered by this post.

    More than most – the  WaPo is realistic about their subscriptions. They often have specials, one of which I found 4 years ago – $19 per year – with additional subscriptions  to share. I’ve never found anything comparable from other media subscriptions.

  170. 170.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @The Pale Scot:

    This American Life had an interview with one of the African-American cops who survived.

    I caught the end of that. I’m going to back and listen to the whole thing. TAL has kind of fallen off my radar, but that interview should be everywhere. “Blue lives”, my white ass.

  171. 171.

    NoraLenderbee

    @NotMax: The biggest problem isn’t that the govt buys the data–it’s that the data is available to be bought, from private companies who obtain it without our permission and with zero accountability for what they do with it.

  174. 174.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    I get it. A phase-in period needs to happen. I just worry $15 isn’t enough now and won’t be in 2026.

    I was doing some reading that said the minimum wage had it’s highest purchasing power in 1968 and that in 2017 it would be around $19.33 if the minimum wage had kept up with labor’s productivity growth. Hell, the $15 minimum wage the Fight for Fifteen Movement wanted in 2012 would be $17 in 2020 dollars.

  179. 179.

    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch

    @NotMax:  This is terrifying.  I don’t want the government knowing which porn shops I frequent.

  180. 180.

    Elizabelle

    In some good news, two police officers from Rocky Mount, VA (due south of Roanoke), both military vets and trained snipers, have been fired for being inside the Capitol during the insurrection.

    The younger of the two posted photos on social media.  The older of the two sounds like a stone liar (and is threatening to sue).  Good riddance to both of them.  Don’t see how the town could keep them around once their presence, and their social media idiocy (lots of nasty stuff), came to light.

    The younger is boasting about having pissed in Nancy Pelosi’s toilet.  The older is saying “wait, we weren’t there …”  Whatever.

  182. 182.

    Skepticat

    We are where we were during this outrage—the whole maladministration, much less the insurrection—because there are no consequences. As I understand it, the joint enterprise doctrine makes those present during a murder as guilty as those actually committing the murder, and there was a murder, not to mention assault and mayhem. And whatever happened to the concept of deterrence? If the actions of seditious insurrectionists aren’t punished, then this was only practice for the next attack on the government. At the very least, anyone inside the Capitol or caught beating people outside should be prosecuted. Yes, the small fry may escape with a slap on the wrist, but slap them.

  183. 183.

    banditqueen

    @rikyrah:  I know! Biden has committed to fighting racism and has brought on a team who shares this commitment. WAPO has a new article posted on ‘domestic terrorism’:

    The storming of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 crystallized for national security officials that violent extremism is not a threat exclusively imported from foreign shores; it is made in America.

    But domestic terrorism is pretty much the province of the white nationalists.

  186. 186.

    TS (the original)

    @Elizabelle:  They had an offer at Christmas for $29 per year – which is 1.5 times as much – so still a bargain. No idea how I lucked into mine – but even when I dislike some of the articles they have – not going to cancel.

  187. 187.

    RSA

    @Elizabelle: Holy shit. These guys are nuts. Arrested on 12 January, houses raided by the FBI on 19 January, in DC court on 20 January.

    According to the warrant, the next day Robertson commented on another post, “Well….F*** you. Being nice, police, writing letters and sending emails hasn’t worked. Peaceful protests haven’t worked. Millions of FB posts, tweets, and other social media hasn’t worked. All that’s left is violence and YOU and your “Friends on the other side of the isle (sic)” have pushed Americans into that corner. The picture of Senators cowering on the floor with genuine fear on their faces is the most American thing I have seen in my life. Once….for real…. you people ACTUALLY realized who you work for.”

    On another post on the same day, Robertson wrote, “Peace is done. Now is time for all the braggart “Patriots” to buckle armor or shut the f*** up. Facebook warriors time is done. The next revolution started 1/6/21 in case you “I’m ready” and “standing by” guys missed it.”

    Robertson continued on the same day on a Facebook post, according to the warrant, writing, “The next revolution started in DC 1/6/21. The only voice these people will now listen to is VIOLENCE. So, respectfully. Buckle armor or just stay at home.”

  190. 190.

    Subsole

    @Elizabelle: Yep. This is one of those issues where the example is the key thing.

    It needs to be a proportionate one, so the cons don’t twist it when they get back in power. But it also needs a deterrent property.

    Glad it’s their call, not mine.

  191. 191.

    Dan B

    @RSA: Quite frightening.  Some of them are in government at the moment.  Rage seems to be their drug of choice.  We need some standards for media or the next attack will be more violent.  And when there is deadlier violence there will be a reaction that imposes dangerous curbs on free speech.

  192. 192.

    Elizabelle

    @RSA:  Great research!  Please move your comment to the next thread, which deals directly with the Robertsons and Frackers of the world.

    I will move your comment if you happen to be elsewhere, not Balloon Juicing at the moment.

  197. 197.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Immanentize: There is a really simple answer. Charge them all, even with unlawful entry. Then dig deeper into all of their social media, then if appropriate offer a misdemeanor plea. This is not even model rocket science.

    Not even bottle rocket science:

    Well, hey, Mr X, I can understand how a law-abiding citizen can kind of get caught up in the moment & before you know it you’re in the Capitol. Technically that’s unlawful entry, & considering how crazy that scene got, you might end up doing some time, ’cause y’know, the judges didn’t like what they saw that day and they might not be all that forgiving.

    But tell you what, if you help us out a little bit, we’ll tell His or Her Honor that you were cooperative and helpful and recommend cutting you some slack. Now then (opens up a window on the computer) we know you were in the area this camera shows from this time to that time. Do you see yourself there? Is that you? Who’s that guy/gal over there? Did they ever mention a name? Did you hear them talking on a phone or a walkie talkie? Could you make out anything they said? Did you see which way they went when they left the area? How about this guy here? Did he say anything while you were in earshot?

    Etc., etc., etc. Squeeze gently, extract dribs&drabs of data that put together with other data might finger one of the really bad actors.

  200. 200.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @zhena gogolia: And kulak means “fist.” (As well as well-to-do peasant.)

    According to my International Dictionary of Obscenities, “playing with Dunya Kulakova [Aunt Fist]” is the Rooskie equivalent of “spending the evening with Rosie Palmer and her five ugly sisters,” i.e., master baiting. /tmi

  203. 203.

    Feckless

    whoever wrote that piece of crap for the Washington Post should have a band of protesters with torches and pitchforks on lawn of their home every night for the rest of their lives and see if they want those people not charged

Comments are closed.