Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’m going back to the respite thread.

Han shot first.

I did not have this on my fuck 2020 bingo card.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

… makes me wish i had hoarded more linguine

We survived Breitbartpocalypse!

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Fuck if i know. i just get yelled at when i try it.

We can agree to disagree, but i’m right.

Shelter in place is one thing. Shelter in pants is quite another.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Four legs? good! two legs? we’re not so sure…

There’s some extremely good trouble headed their way.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Good luck with your asparagus.

Too inconsequential to be sued

Almost as fun as hiking the Appalachian Trail

Trump is going to draw a dick on that dog with a sharpie, isn’t he?

Usually wrong but never in doubt

This is how realignments happen…

Mission Accomplished!

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Repubs in Disarray! Open Thread: Bill Barr Raises A White Flag

Repubs in Disarray! Open Thread: Bill Barr Raises A White Flag

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Turns out Bill ‘Ever Lower’ Barr does have his limits, and they are ‘Do I wanna have a career, once this is over?’

“Disputing Trump… “

… His comments in an interview with The Associated Press come despite President Donald Trump’s repeated baseless claims that the election was stolen, Trump’s effort to subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election and his refusal to concede his loss to President-Elect Joe Biden.

Barr said U.S. attorneys and FBI agents have been working to follow up specific complaints and information they’ve received, but they’ve uncovered no evidence that would change the outcome of the election. Barr was headed to the White House later for a previously scheduled meeting.

“To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” Barr told the AP.

The comments are especially direct coming from Barr, who has been one of the president’s most ardent allies. Before the election, he had repeatedly raised the notion that mail-in voter fraud could be especially vulnerable to fraud during the coronavirus pandemic as Americans feared going to polls and instead chose to vote by mail…

“The notion.” What a… dainty choice of nouns!

… Last month, Barr issued a directive to U.S. attorneys across the country allowing them to pursue any “substantial allegations” of voting irregularities, if they existed, before the 2020 presidential election was certified, despite no evidence at that time of widespread fraud. That memorandum gave prosecutors the ability to go around longstanding Justice Department policy that normally would prohibit such overt actions before the election was certified. Soon after it was issued, the department’s top elections crime official announced he would step aside from that position because of the memo…

In further evidence that this thing is so long dead it’s stinking up the joint, the Repubs were reduced to sending out… the Dumb Guy. No, the really Dumb Guy, beneath whose magnificent coif no brain cells fire…

Reader Interactions

216Comments

  2. 2.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Turns out Bill ‘Ever Lower’ Barr does have his limits, and they are ‘Do I wanna have a career, once this is over?’

    His limits might also include “Do I wanna go to jail or be tied up in litigation, once this is over?”

  4. 4.

    MattF

    It’s fair to to say that Barr’s comments are surprising. And… Lou Dobbs is… unhappy about it.

  6. 6.

    namekarB

    Welp, that didn’t take long

    Bill Barr has just arrived at the White House according to the press pool.This shortly after the Attorney General told AP there is no evidence of election fraud that would overturn the election and critiques Trump for using the DoJ to investigate outcomes he doesn’t like.— Travis Akers (@travisakers) December 1, 2020

  8. 8.

    Yutsano

    the Repubs were reduced to sending out… the Dumb Guy. No, the really Dumb Guy, beneath whose magnificent coif no brain cells fire…

    *Offer only good until Tuberville is sworn in.

  9. 9.

    cain

    @Jeffro:

    Oh yeah, that’s fucking impeachable offense if it is true. Basically taking bribes so they can get money? yeah.. I suppose he could just pardon himself. But then hey – why have rules or laws at all? If he’s above the law for crimes, he can be above the law for everything else too! 4 MORE YEARS and then to INFINITY and BEYOND!

  10. 10.

    dmsilev

    To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” Barr told the AP.

    Calling that ‘weasel wording’ is an offense to mustelids everywhere. He’s not saying ‘there’s no fraud’, just that he hasn’t seen very much of it.

  11. 11.

    germy

    Ryan Grim's take:

    "For almost every role so far, Biden has chosen someone more progressive and less entrenched in Wall Street than the same official under Obama."https://t.co/1YoYj4UIOb

    — Joshua Holland 🔥 (@JoshuaHol) December 1, 2020

    Start with chief of staff: swapping out Rahm Emanuel for Ron Klain isn’t close. Where Emanuel was outwardly hostile to the party’s progressive wing — “communists” who were “fucking retarded” — Klain, while not himself a fire-breathing Sanders supporter, has always been respectful to the party’s left flank. (He is also known for a heightened level of organizational competence, a rather important trait in a pandemic.) Biden’s alternative, his close adviser Steve Ricchetti, a longtime corporate lobbyist, was passed over for the job amid progressive opposition.

  12. 12.

    LAO

    @Jeffro: A half an hour ago, I sent a text to a friend joking that Trump’s going charge big money for pardons.  Who could have known I was actually serious?

  13. 13.

    MattF

    @Jeffro: ‘’No one told me it was illegal to sell a pardon.” I can hazard a guess about the subject of Barr’s meeting at the White House.

  14. 14.

    oldster

    This is probably the least important issue in this mess, but I do wish that the reporters would quote Barr correctly. He clearly said,

    “We have not seen fraud on a scale that could have EFFECTED —  not AFFECTED, but EFFECTED — a different outcome in the election”.

    If he had said, “affected the election,” or “affected the outcome of the election,” then AFFECTED would be a perfectly good word (affected = altered, influenced, had an impact on, etc.).

    But if you say, “a DIFFERENT outcome,” then you must mean “effected,” i.e. produced, brought about. He has not seen fraud that would have produced a different outcome.

    Like I said, it doesn’t really matter in the big picture, but I do wish that reporters were literate.

  15. 15.

    germy

    Lindsey Graham on Barr: “I have a lot of confidence in him and if they haven’t found anything yet that tells me that one they’ve looked, they haven’t found anything. And if there’s other things to look at I’m sure they will.” @mkraju

    — Shimon Prokupecz (@ShimonPro) December 1, 2020

    And the barnacle slowly detaches itself from the boat.

  16. 16.

    Cacti

    This is Bill Barr attempting to get himself back into the good graces of the courtier press.

    They’ll swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

  17. 17.

    Kent

    @dmsilev:Calling that ‘weasel wording’ is an offense to mustelids everywhere. He’s not saying ‘there’s no fraud’, just that he hasn’t seen very much of it.

    Well, of course there is fraud.  Fetterman caught the MAGA guy in PA who was trying to get his dead mom to vote for Trump.  And there was some other MAGA dad they caught fraudulently filling out a Trump absentee ballot for his daughter off in college.

    In Kansas they apparently caught some MAGA retired snowbirds trying to vote twice, in Kansas and in their winter snowbird home of AZ.

    It’s just that the penny ante stuff is usually Republicans.

  21. 21.

    Wag

    When you’ve lost Bill Barr, it is time to give up.

    bahahahahaha!   Who am I kidding?  Trump still has America’s Mayor on his side.

    \s

  23. 23.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @debbie: Good question, to which I don’t know the answer. I confess I didn’t follow his confirmation hearing closely, given that the outcome was a given. Plus I was busy.

  26. 26.

    West of the Rockies

    I still hope the grotesque Barr is shunned by society going forward.

    Just got into a confrontation with a no-masker at Safeway.  A 60-ish short, stout white guy.  I did not back down.  He walked away.  I’m surprised at how four years of bottled rage  is leaking out of me.  I’m almost 59 myself, 5’10” a buck 75, but I’m sick of privileged A-holes sauntering around in Trumpian grandeur.  Guess what, jerks. Your side lost and it’s time to stop sputtering Nazi horse shit without pushback..

    Also, too, it’s frustrating that if enough bigots in Georgia vote, we will have ugly Mitch mucking up the machinery of government.  I’m so sick of a rural minority of morons ruining society.

  27. 27.

    Ken

    In some ways the biggest part of the story is the Associated Press using the phrase “Trump’s repeated baseless claims”.

  28. 28.

    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch

    Lou Dobbs absolutely loses it over Bill Barr… accusing Barr of joining “the Deep State and the Resistance” before saying this: “He is either a liar or a fool or both. He may be – perhaps compromised.”

    eating their tails

  29. 29.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @oldster: …it doesn’t really matter in the big picture, but I do wish that reporters were literate.

    Thanky kindly for saving me the trouble of posting this. It’s kinda cute, to see a rare example of the affect/effect wars where “effect” as a verb is the correct usage – even if it comes from a slimeball like “Dis” Barr…

  31. 31.

    MattF

    @LAO: So, when the text on your friend’s phone comes to light— you’re going to claim attorney-friend privilege?

  35. 35.

    LAO

    @MattF: Thankfully, she’s also a lawyer, I’ll invoke “attorney-work product” to shield its disclosure. But seriously, I should have realized it was just a matter of time with these scumbags.

  36. 36.

    West of the Rockies

    @germy:

    I maintain that 35 years of right wing rage radio led to first Palin and then Trump.  The Morlocks have been enabled.  It’s time to send them back to their moldering grottoes and to seal the entrance.

  37. 37.

    West of the Rockies

    @cain:

    I hear that Lindsey does prefer younger… cohorts.

    You know what?  That sounds homophobic.  I apologize and retract the statement.  My sincere apologies.

  38. 38.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @germy: I wonder if Lindseys’ decided one more term of “relevance” is enough, and he’s looking forward to running out the clock while boring the hell out of young people desperate for a recommendation letter with his title in it.

    Nah, when push comes to shove, Ol’ Linds knows the only way his funeral hits double digit attendance is if he croaks on the floor.

  39. 39.

    Scout211

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/01/gabriel-sterling-trump-stop-inspiring-threats-over-election/3785582001/

    A top election official with the Georgia Secretary of State’s Office on Tuesday called on President Donald Trump to condemn and “stop inspiring” recent threats of violence as the state finishes a second recount of the presidential election.

    . . .
    It has to stop. Mr. President, you have not condemned these actions or this language,” Sterling said. “Senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. This has to stop. We need you to step up. And if you’re going to take a position of leadership, show some.”
    The senators Sterling referenced are Georgia’s two Republican U.S. senators, David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, who are running in runoff elections on Jan. 5 that could decide control of the Senate.
     

  40. 40.

    germy

    @West of the Rockies:  It’s time to send them back to their moldering grottoes and to seal the entrance.

    How, though?

    This particular employee.  I try to limit my visits to the grocery store to twice a month.  And I see him every time.

  41. 41.

    raven

    (CNN)The Justice Department is investigating a potential crime related to funneling money to the White House or related political committee in exchange for a presidential pardon, according to court records unsealed Tuesday in federal court.

    The case is the latest legal twist in the waning days of President Donald Trump’s administration after several of his top advisers have been convicted of federal criminal charges and as the possibility rises of Trump giving pardons to those who’ve been loyal to him.
    The disclosure is in 20 pages of partially redacted documents made public by the DC District Court on Tuesday afternoon. The records show Chief Judge Beryl Howell’s review in August of a request from prosecutors to access documents obtained in a search as part of a bribery-for-pardon investigation.

    T

  42. 42.

    CaseyL

    @cain: I don’t think it’ll be Cruz.  Based on a data set of two (McCain and Trump), Graham’s requirements include someone who has an aura of power, a fan club, and who the MSM likes (oftentimes the MSM and the fan club are the same thing).  Cruz doesn’t have either of those.  Neither does McConnell.

    I’m… not sure who currently qualifies.  The RW Senators are all about as charisma-free as you can get and SFAIK, nobody actually  “likes” any of them.

  43. 43.

    MattF

    Somewhat related… there’s a Twitter account Parlertakes described as ‘I look at Parler so you don’t have to’. A lot of crazy people. And mad at Barr.

  44. 44.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @germy:

    Ryan Grim’s take:

    “For almost every role so far, Biden has chosen someone more progressive and less entrenched in Wall Street than the same official under Obama

    Speaking of shape-shifters looking for a new host…? I wonder if Greenwald’s recent overlapping meltdown have Whosits who funds the Federalist I mean Intercept rethinking his largesse, or at least the Tara Reade Correpondents and Fancy Freezer Investigative team sending out feelers

  45. 45.

    Roger Moore

    @Jeffro:

    They should have learned from Marc Rich.  The trick is to shower the party of your choice with largess and then lobby for a pardon without making an explicit quid pro quo deal.  That doesn’t eliminate the stink of corruption, but it means there isn’t enough tangible there for prosecution.

  46. 46.

    randy khan

    The only way the Durham thing is important is if the Biden Administration wants to treat it as anything but a politically-motivated move intended to cause trouble.  The incoming Attorney General can thank him for his service and tell him to provide a report to the appropriate high-level career person on whatever he has found.  (It will be a short report.)

  47. 47.

    Gravenstone

    We have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election

    He’s going all Capt. Jack Sparrow here; “But you have seen fraud, right?”

  48. 48.

    germy

    We’ve got the CBS Evening News on right now (with Nora O’Donnell) and I saw Lindsey Grahm call Neera Tanden a “nut Job”

  49. 49.

    Roger Moore

    @dmsilev:

    He’s not saying ‘there’s no fraud’, just that he hasn’t seen very much of it.

    It’s technically true that we’ve seen evidence of fraud.  The only problem is that the only publicized cases were individual Republicans multiple voting, rather than the kind of large-scale Democratic fraud needed to overturn the election.

  50. 50.

    Gravenstone

    @Jeffro: I don’t think this should or would surprise anyone. The DOJ looking into it may be the surprise, but the “buy a pardon” racket was almost a given.

  51. 51.

    p.a.

    Sadly the relative effectiveness of Barr protecting a racist moron given the demonstrated incompetence of the moron’s other hires will make him a prized hire if he wants to continue working.  He better be circumspect in the places he dines, however.

  55. 55.

    Kent

    @MattF: Somewhat related… there’s a Twitter account Parlertakes described as ‘I look at Parler so you don’t have to’. A lot of crazy people. And mad at Barr.

    Parler is serving it’s purpose to create a reservation for the crazies to foment their racist insanity unfettered.   Frankly it’s much better to keep it there than say on Facebook where is much more likely to creep into my elderly aunt’s MAGA facebook feed.

  57. 57.

    Jeffro

    @cain: it’ll never happen but a rocket-docket impeachment and removal of the orange moron before he gets kicked out of the WH would be

    SO

    FUCKING

    SWEET

  59. 59.

    Martin

    @Jeffro: We might get some definitive ruling on the scope of presidential pardons out of this.

    Can you pardon non-enumerated individuals?

    Can you pardon individuals for non-enumerated crimes?

    Is a pardon still valid if it was done as part of a corrupt act?

    Hypothetically, Trump could pardon all Americans for all federal crimes past and present, which would be a trip. Even more exciting, he could just pardon all white Americans.

  60. 60.

    Jeffro

    @germy: Grim is totally right here.  These are basically the same picks we’d get with a Warren administration, which thrills me – not just Chris-Matthews-style ‘thrill up my leg’ either.

    Competent.  Experienced.  Determined.  Team players.

    I’ll take it!

  61. 61.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @West of the Rockies: wasn’t 1994 the year of the “Angry White Male” and Newt Gingrich. ’96 was “Soccer Moms”? ’98 was “Get the fuck out of that girl’s underwear drawer, you fucking pervs!”….

  62. 62.

    p.a.

    Y’know for all the legit concern abt violence from the right, for fundies the biggest sin is apostasy.  The thugs may turn out to be more dangerous to their own falling-short goons than to the opposition.  GA gov & SecState, AZ gov finding this out.  ‘Haveanotherdonut’ Barr is a big target.  This could very well be… educational… for some of the turds.

  63. 63.

    Martin

    @Jeffro: The GOP would have to issue the articles of impeachment and deliver the votes. Nancy already gave them their chance. She’s not going to try and kick the football twice.

  65. 65.

    Martin

    @p.a.: Oh, it always is. That’s kind of why I’m not worried about Trump – narcissists go after those people they believed should be loyal, not those of us who they never expected to be. It’s folks like Barr that are going to be the target, not folks like Biden.

  66. 66.

    Jeffro

    @MattF:‘’No one told me it was illegal to sell a pardon.” I can hazard a guess about the subject of Barr’s meeting at the White House.

    “I can do whatever I want!  I’m the president, and I can do whatever I want on my way out the door.  Fuck ’em” – DJT

    Okay, Donnie…we’ll see your bluff and call, baby.  Cash for pardons?  Sounds good!  Let’s see how many of your GOP toadies are willing to back that shit publicly.

  69. 69.

    LAO

    Looks like Twitter thinks the convicted Trump associate in the “pay for pardon” case is Rick Gates (because of an apostrophe).  I have no clue.  But, I was hoping it was Joe Exotic — because that seems like the perfect end for two conman hucksters.

  71. 71.

    Baud

    @Roger Moore:

    They should have learned from Marc Rich.  The trick is to shower the party of your choice with largess and then lobby for a pardon without making an explicit quid pro quo deal.

     

    The problem is that Trump doesn’t care about the party, so that plan doesn’t work.

  72. 72.

    Barbara

    So this is an article that gives the back story to the Gabriel Sterling meltdown and conclusively shows that Sydney Powell has lost her mind. I bet you will not be surprised to learn that 8kun and Qanon are at the heart of it all.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/01/powell-cites-qanon-watkins/
    If you don’t want to hit the paywall then don’t read it, but there is almost no way to quote a paragraph or two. It’s just a daisy chain of crazy.

  74. 74.

    Amir Khalid

    This just occurred to me: voter fraud on the scale of one in a million is futile; it doesn’t materially affect the outcome of an election. A person/group orchestrating voter fraud would need enough voters joining in to gain a majority of ballots cast. And if you had that many voters, you could win the election fair and square.

  75. 75.

    Martin

    @MattF: Not sure it is illegal. Might only be remedied by impeachment. The pardon power, by virtue of being constitutional, is both absolute and without restriction other than pardons for those impeached.

    This might be a case where Congress was supposed to use impeachment aggressively, and chose not to.

  76. 76.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Josh Marshall tried to read between the redactions of the judge’s order  (thread)

    Josh Marshall @joshtpm 37

    So I read the judges decision doc here. It’s almost all redacted. But some basic outlines are clear – bribery for pardon scheme. Seems to involve both wouldbe pardonees lawyer and some sort of non lawyer fixer 

    4/ If I’m reading this right, this tells us the person trying to buy a pardon is already in the federal prison system.

  77. 77.

    geg6

    @LAO:

    But does Rick Gates have that kind of money at this point?  I doubt it.  I keep thinking Ghislaine Maxwell.  She has the cash.  Or the Sacklers, maybe?

  78. 78.

    Miss Bianca

    So, Ron Johnson, explain to us over here in the cheap seats just exactly *how* Bill Barr is supposed to provide proof of…*checks notes*…ah, yes, here we are…”*absence* of voter fraud.”

  79. 79.

    Jeffro

    @CaseyL: Don’t forget Josh “Champion of the People!” Hawley

    (then again, he only seems charismatic in contrast to Cruz, Cotton, etc)

    That man is a VIPER.  He and Haley are the only ones who give me a moment’s concern…but they do give me concern.

  80. 80.

    Bill Arnold

    @oldster:
    No, you’re right. And I don’t often see “effected”. Interesting. From the AP, direct copy/paste quote, again:

    “to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election.”

  82. 82.

    Roger Moore

    @Gravenstone:

    I don’t think this should or would surprise anyone.

    I’m a little surprised they were so clumsy about it.  You’d think they’d know by now how to pass a bribe without making it so obvious  [correction] leaving a paper trail.

  83. 83.

    LAO

    @geg6: people seem to think, because there’s reference to BOP custody, that the briber (for lack of a better term) is either in federal custody or was in federal custody,  I like the Maxwell guess though.  She’s in custody — but I think if she was the briber,  case would have been filed in the SDNY as a related matter.

  84. 84.

    Jeffro

    @Roger Moore:The trick is to shower the party of your choice with largess and then lobby for a pardon without making an explicit quid pro quo deal.

    Agreed (as to how it works, not the principle of the thing!)

    But being the Keystone Klansmen that they are, I’m certain someone in the trumpov WH made the deal explicit.  “Gimme $X and I’ll make sure the babbling orange moron signs your pardon before January”.

    One interesting idea for a column, or a book, or (please) many investigations is just how many people were ‘running’ trumpov these past several years.  Just flat-out manipulating someone of his low intelligence and zero morals into doing all the things they wanted, regardless of the political consequences for him or the GOP.

    Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon, obviously.  Barr, up to a point.  Putin and Erdogan.  Just pulling pulling pulling on his utterly unprincipled strings.

  85. 85.

    Martin

    @geg6: I don’t think the Sacklers are on the hook for federal crimes. The company is, but not the family.

    Maybe Ghislaine. Maybe Bannon.

  91. 91.

    persistentillusion

    @germy: Complain to the store manager.  You don’t need to do it in person (although the complaint would be more powerful if you choose to do so).  Food acquisition has many options, so you voicing your interest in doing so safely might carry weight.

  92. 92.

    Jeffro

    @Martin: these all sound like questions that SCOTUS may well be throwing around in the next several months, among others.

    “Can you pardon someone without naming them?  ‘I know a guy…that I’d like to pardon…’ ”

    “Can you pardon a political party if it’s the right party?”

    “How much of a payoff is TOO much for the pardon to stand?”

    “Is it a crime to take cash for a pardon if the pardon-er in question was up to his orange-rimmed eyeballs in debt and needed the dough?”

    “Why CAN’T a president pardon his own daughter?   You’d think if anyone could be pardoned, that should be the most intimate er sacred of pardonable relationships…”

    So gross.  Just leave already and proceed to the nearest jail cell, trumpov.

  94. 94.

    MattF

    @geg6: There could easily be unrevealed investigations that threaten some wealthy would-be Trump donor. And Trump’s pardoning power is going away soon, so shit is hitting fan.

  95. 95.

    Roger Moore

    @Martin:

    Not sure it is illegal. Might only be remedied by impeachment.

    It is almost certainly illegal.  Accepting a bribe in exchange for official action is illegal for everyone; there’s no special exception for the president. And there doesn’t seem to be any rule protecting an ex-president from prosecution for illegal actions while in office, regardless of whether he was impeached for it.  If the president were protected from actions for which he wasn’t impeached, Nixon wouldn’t have needed a pardon.

  96. 96.

    Jeffro

    @Martin: Oh I know that.  It’s another failure of their ‘collective action problem’ as well as their lack of morals, principles, humanity.

    But still.

    I have no problem grabbing a Sharpie and turning all of my ’46!’ gear into ’47!’  ;)

  98. 98.

    LAO

    @Martin: The bribery statute 18 USC Sec. 201 only requires “an official act,” not a corrupt act.  It’s absolutely illegal to offer a pardon (an official act) for money.

  99. 99.

    JaneE

    Ron Johnson doesn’t seem to grasp that evidence of no mass fraud is the result of no evidence of fraud, period.

  100. 100.

    cain

    @Jeffro:

    Yeah, for sure! I would love to see the man get impeached and booted out. He’d probably won’t accept that either, say the votes were rigged and people didn’t vote against him there too.

  102. 102.

    Roger Moore

    @Jeffro:

    One interesting idea for a column, or a book, or (please) many investigations is just how many people were ‘running’ trumpov these past several years. Just flat-out manipulating someone of his low intelligence and zero morals into doing all the things they wanted, regardless of the political consequences for him or the GOP.

    I don’t think this idea of Trump as an unwitting dupe of the people around him holds water, and I think it’s letting him off the hook for his own evil actions.  He didn’t get fooled by people like Miller and Bannon; he appointed them because he wanted them to do exactly the kinds of things they wound up doing.  In the areas where he had less personal interest (e.g. judges), he consciously bought the loyalty of the rest of the party by giving them what they wanted.

  103. 103.

    Tim C.

    Alternate moonbat theory with little evidence, but still worth mentioning:

     

    Fact 1: Barr shut the hell up before the election and kept near radio silence up until this moment on post election shenanigans.

    Fact 2: He has no morals or scruples whatsoever.

    Questions: Why isn’t Barr leading all the recount/fraud nonsense?   Why isn’t he in the role of Rudy here?

     

    Possible answer:  The “deep state” has something on him and played their card back in October.   Whatever “it” is,  its powerful enough to keep him shut up even now.

     

    Thoughts?

  106. 106.

    mrmoshpotato

    @LAO:

    LMAO, looks like the far right is having a complete meltdown on Parler. 

    Nazis have a sad?  Awww…..CRY HARDER white trashtionalist Nazi trash!  (Yes.  Double the trash.)

  109. 109.

    scav

    Pardoning someone without getting something personally in exchange? That would violate every holy principle of capitalism, it would be Un’Mercan, beyond immoral, it would be communism!

  111. 111.

    RSA

    @oldster:

    Like I said, it doesn’t really matter in the big picture, but I do wish that reporters were literate.

    Lou Dobbs used “affect” in the video MattF points to. But given the Fox News audience, you wonder if it’s a deliberate mistake… Nah.

  112. 112.

    trollhattan

    @geg6:

    Like the Devoses, I think the Sacklers may indeed be fashioned completely of money. They are walking bags of wingnut cash.

  114. 114.

    JMG

    @Tim C.: Back in October, there was a report in one of the Washington gossip sites, Axios I think, that FBI director Wray and CIA director Haspel were on the chopping block. Ran in the morning. That afternoon, Haspel went to the Senate office building for an in-person meeting with Mitch McConnell. Neither party has discussed the conversation, but the Haspel-Wray out talk ceased abruptly. The Deep State does exist, just not the way it does in Fox News fever dreams. A wise pol does not get on the bad side of the Company, let alone the FBI.

  115. 115.

    Geminid

    @LAO: Martin Shkreli is a possible suspect for the bribery scheme. Shkreli is worth $30 million+, and is serving a seven year sentence for securities fraud at Allenwood prison, with a September 2023 release date. This summer Shkreli petitioned for an early compassionate release so he could help his pharmaceutical company find a cure for Covid-19. The judge turned him down.

  118. 118.

    Jeffro

    @Roger Moore:I don’t think this idea of Trump as an unwitting dupe of the people around him holds water, and I think it’s letting him off the hook for his own evil actions.

    I’m not making him off to be some innocent patsy or ‘unwitting dupe’ here.  (I’m pretty sure I said ‘low intelligence and zero morals’).

    He is not being let off the hook by the theory that people smarter than him pushed him to do X and Y, despite how it would impact him electorally (and down the road, financially).  Many evil forces found their perfect tool in trumpov…but that doesn’t absolve him from sharing many of those same evil beliefs and agreeing to act as he did these past four years.

  120. 120.

    Elizabelle

    Breaking news banner atop the NY Times:

    Trump Has Discussed With Advisers Pardons for His 3 Eldest Children and Giuliani

    Rudolph W. Giuliani, who is promoting baseless claims of widespread election fraud, talked about a pardon with President Trump as recently as last week.

  121. 121.

    Tim C.

    @JMG: Yeah, that fits about the time Barr went silent too. I remember him making a bunch a noise about the nine improperly disposed of spoiled ballots in Pennsylvania and was expecting a lot more like that.  Then… nothing.   So something clearly happened at that point.  Likewise, Barr Met with McConnel as well sometime in the recent past I recall

    Edit:  Likewise,  perhaps my fantasies of some significant arrests happening the afternoon of January 20th is possible?  Maybe Haspel and Wray laid out some cases and information?

  123. 123.

    Redshift

    @Tim C.:

    Possible answer: The “deep state” has something on him and played their card back in October. Whatever “it” is, its powerful enough to keep him shut up even now. 

    I think it’s simpler — the election wasn’t close enough to steal. Barr was happy to trash his reputation to establish the authoritarianism/theocracy he fervently believes in, but not in a failed effort to do it. He’s shown he’s willing to try lots of appalling things that end up not working (and too many that did), so he’s not a super-brilliant tactician, but that doesn’t mean he has no ability to evaluate the chance of success.

  124. 124.

    Elizabelle

    @zhena gogolia:  Yep.  The FTF NY Times mentions George Washington’s pardon of the Whiskey Rebellion participants and Jimmy Carter’s pardon of Viet Nam war draft evaders.  The better to hide what an anomaly Ford’s pardon truly was; crimes by a US president.

    Trump is leaving a map of where the Founding Fathers fucked up, and badly.

  125. 125.

    Kropacetic

    “We have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election,” US Attorney General Bill Barr tells AP

    Of course not. If the voter fraud had been sufficient to alter the putcome of the election, Teump would be president-elect.

  128. 128.

    Elizabelle

    Something that strikes me as obscene about all this talk of pardons for Trump and his fucking criminal syndicate/family:  OK, the NY Times mentioned that thousands of others [mostly nobodies] are awaiting action on their pardons.

    And meanwhile:  Trump and Barr are revving up the execution machine for federal death sentences.  They plan to execute several men and one woman during Trump’s lame duck phase.  Will find you the recent WaPost article on the subject.

    It is so obscene.

  130. 130.

    Benw

    This means we did it, right? We said the Democratic voters had to carry the battleground states by wide enough margins to stop any fuckery by the few semi sane Republicans and we did it! In the face of a pandemic and voter suppression!

    Hats off to the D voters and organizers in the swing states! And to those who worked outreach! And also to those of us in the big blue states for, well being consistently big and blue! :)

  131. 131.

    Geminid

    @Tim C.: Bill Barr is just a gimlet eyed gunslinger for conservative fat cats. He could serve their interests by serving trump, but I doubt if Barr has any loyalty to trump himself. Barr’s crowd got their tax cuts and their judges out of trump, and they are ready to wash their hands of him.

  133. 133.

    Elizabelle

    @Benw:   You’re right.  Three cheers for all of us, who turned out and defeated Trump.

    President-Elect Biden!  Vice President-Elect Harris.  Dr. Jill Biden and Doug Emhoff!

    And Major, Champ, and a cat on the way in too.  Woo hoo.

    We did it!  With special thanks to the swing staters and those enduring life in red and purple states and districts.

  135. 135.

    Obvious Russian Troll

    @JaneE: He’s not America’s Dumbest Senator for nothing.

    Seriously, I don’t see how that guy manages to tie his shoes without strangling himself.

  136. 136.

    Dan B

    @West of the Rockies: Don’t worry about sounding homophobic about Lindsey.  Teh gehyz have been savaging him for years.  It’s like the Hungarian EU minister who wrote the amendment to the constitution that makes marriage between one man and one woman the only definition of marriage.  He was caught trying to sneak out of a 25 man, drug filled, orgy.

    Hypocrisy earns reverse merit badges with LGBTQ people.

  137. 137.

    Roger Moore

    @Elizabelle:

    Trump is leaving a map of where the Founding Fathers fucked up, and badly.

    No.  Trump is proving something best summed up by Ben Franklin’s famous comment, “A republic, if you can keep it”.  They understood the Constitution is just a bunch of words.  The thing that protects our republic is people dedicated to maintaining it, and no amount of cleverness on the part of the Framers could have done otherwise.

  138. 138.

    Geminid

    @Elizabelle: Guliani has legal exposure in a couple cases that are already known, and there may be others. Hope of a pardon would explain the desperation with which Guiliani has advocated trump’s election cause.

  140. 140.

    zhena gogolia

    @Elizabelle:

    I joined a letter from relatives of murder victims imploring Barr not to revive the federal death penalty. It really had a great effect on him.

    ETA: He’s so pro-life, dontcha know.

  146. 146.

    Roger Moore

    @Dan B:

    Don’t worry about sounding homophobic about Lindsey. Teh gehyz have been savaging him for years.

    I will leave them to it.  If I do the same, I sound like a hypocrite when I tell others not to use homophobic language.  I’d rather slam Graham for sins that should be obvious to everyone: he’s an invertebrate suck-up who lacks any fixed principles except his own advancement.

  148. 148.

    Elizabelle

    @Roger Moore:   We are going to need some cleverness to claw back the weaponized disinformation system of rightwing media, Fox News and its ilk, and now Facebook and QAnon.

    A democracy depends on informed citizens.  The rightwing/crazy ass disinformation feeds polarization and makes a functioning democracy impossible.

    You cannot displace the lies and brainwashing.  Joseph Goebbels would be so jealous of what is hiding behind the First Amendment.

  149. 149.

    toine

    So the only Trump crony smart enough to keep his thumbprint off the scales should be gone/leaving pretty soon… hmmmm…

    surely just a coincidence with the pay-for-pardon scandal breaking… I guess even a loyal rat eventually realizes it has to jump ship…

  152. 152.

    J R in WV

    @Jeffro:

    One interesting idea for a column, or a book, or (please) many investigations is just how many people were ‘running’ trumpov these past several years.

    …

    Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon, obviously. Barr, up to a point. Putin and Erdogan. Just pulling pulling pulling on his utterly unprincipled strings.

    Don’t forget Mohammed Bone Saw. Crown Prince of the Kingdom of Saud, he of an infinite well of money, and zero morality. Hence his nickname, ‘ Bone Saw.

  153. 153.

    Martin

    @Roger Moore: Oh, I guess I should say: Is the pardon power absolute? That is, Trump taking a bribe would be illegal (given our ability to hold the President accountable outside of impeachment)  but does that invalidate the pardon? To my knowledge a pardon has never been overturned, or even successfully challenged.

  154. 154.

    J R in WV

    @JaneE:

    Ron Johnson doesn’t seem to grasp that evidence of no mass fraud is the result of no evidence of fraud, period.

    Also, Senator Johnson seems totally unaware of the fact that everyone is innocent, (even the Democratic Party) until they are proven guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt!” Because logically it is impossible to prove a negative… which the founders were aware of, they studied rhetoric, which is a form of logic.

    I’m just a retired hillbilly software guy who went to college a couple of times. He’s a freaking Senator, and totally ignorant of hos the judicial system functions. Guess he never did Jury Duty, huh?

  158. 158.

    Martin

    @J R in WV: Also, Senator Johnson seems totally unaware of the fact that everyone is innocent, (even the Democratic Party) until they are proven guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt!”

    BTW, ‘everyone is innocent’ is fundamentally at odds with the foundation of conservatism. It’s not a matter of unawareness, it’s the basis of their entire worldview.

  159. 159.

    Jeffro

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: the Q nutters will have a field day

    “I’m saying it’s the SAME. PRIME. NUMBER, after all these years!  Do you hear me?”

    (Biden moves up from bishop of hell to arch-bishop in their scheme of things.  Or something)

    “See???!?  You’d have to be stupid not to SEE IT!”

    Kuh-ray-zee!

  160. 160.

    Martin

    @Kristine: Sorry, yes, Manafort. I make these kinds of mistakes a  lot when I take a quick break from work and comment. I should stop doing that.

  161. 161.

    Roger Moore

    @Martin:

    I think the answer to most of the stuff surrounding pardons is that there’s no settled law on the matter.  I think there is some common law stuff around pardons, but ultimately everything would wind up in the courts.  There’s a lot of theory about how they ought to rule, but nobody knows how they actually would rule.  Anyone who is confident on how the courts would rule is fooling themselves.

  162. 162.

    Danielx

    @LAO:

    I have to admire your ability to read it.   One visit to that sewer was more than enough for me.

    Now about this cash-for-pardons thing, isn’t that called ‘bribery’ in most circles?

  163. 163.

    Amir Khalid

    @Elizabelle:

    One thing I really like about Kamala Harris is that she’s strongly against capital punishment. I expect the incoming administration will pull back any move by the lame-duck Trump administration towards more federal executions.

  166. 166.

    Jeffro

    @Danielx: yes…if they make it that explicit, it’s bribery.

    Noted upthread: ways to avoid this (a la Marc Rich)

    Also noted upthread: the GOP and trumpov are not smart enough, hardworking enough, or concerned enough with the law/appearances/basic human decency to go to the trouble of making it un-explicit

    So… fuck ’em

    I do wonder if this isn’t some sort of a warning shot, too.  If there aren’t multiple cash-for-pardons discussions going on, and someone in the know is trying to get the word out: this is NOT how you do it.

  169. 169.

    artem1s

    when I heard the announcement about Flynn’s pardon, the first thing I thought about was whether Dumbass’ advisors knew how to go about pardoning someone properly – as in taking the right legal steps , in the right order and getting all the language right.  I assumed there would be incompetents involved and sooner or later they would completely fuck up someone’s pardon and boy wouldn’t it be nice if it was Flynn’s?  Given this investigation, wouldn’t it make sense for the DOJ to revisit all of Donnie’s pardons?  Not just the ones that are connected to the unnamed person who donated to the campaign?  And shouldn’t there be a hold put on any other pardons until the investigation into bribery is finished?

    Please let their greed hoist them on their own petards!

  170. 170.

    J R in WV

    We were eating dinner and wife had MSNBC running on the table. Chris Hayes came on, with the paperwork and a couple of legal contributors, and told us there was a federal investigation into a pay-for-pardon scandal.

    Chris was so excited, he was bouncing up and down in his on-set chair. It was hilarious. And I couldn’t criticize him at all, I thought it was pretty exciting too.

    Does trump even know when he is violating the law? Nope, he’s totally pig-ignorant — that just makes it more exciting! You never know when he’s running across the line, out-of-bounds totally but still running for the end zone… if that’s not too many mixed metaphors!

  171. 171.

    Amir Khalid

    @artem1s:

    If many or even most of those whom Trump corruptly pardoned were ordered into prison because he’d screwed up the process and the pardons were invalid, it would be justice served with sprinkles on top.

  174. 174.

    kindness

    If they were looking for fraud all they had to do was open AG Barr’s Mueller Report Cliff Notes version.

  176. 176.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Lifted from below on Barr:  Barr isn’t an idiot. He has clearly indicated that he was willing to go only so far in support of fascism. I think he drew the line at criming and things that would certainly fuck up his law license. Also, why would he chose to go down with the SS Trump?

  178. 178.

    catclub

    @oldster: “We have not seen fraud on a scale that could have EFFECTED — not AFFECTED, but EFFECTED — a different outcome in the election”.

     

    It also means there could have been widespread GOP fraud in states that Trump won. NC has kind of a bad rep at the moment in terms of vote harvesting.

  179. 179.

    catclub

    @artem1s: and sooner or later they would completely fuck up someone’s pardon and boy wouldn’t it be nice if it was Flynn’s?

     

    Flynn was only convicted for lying to the FBI, but there was a judge who laid into him and asked why he wasn’t being tried for treason.  I think THAT was related to working for Turkey.  That stuff never got any further into the open.

  181. 181.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Amir Khalid: Constitutionally, the pardon power is absolute.  The rules on how to apply it are there for fairness and process.  It is one of the last vestiges of absolute power of a head of state.  The argument is that the president has that power, so if he exercises it the pardon is valid.  And the president can exercise it for any or no reason.  If, however, on the way to exercising it, the president commits a crime, that criminal act (taking a bribe) can be prosecuted.

  182. 182.

    eddie blake

    @catclub:

    graham calling the SoS of georgia tells me that’s not the first time he’s tried to fuck with an election, and it’s probably not the first time he tried to fuck with one out of his state.

  184. 184.

    catclub

    @Jeffro: You’d think if anyone could be pardoned, that should be the most intimate er sacred of pardonable relationships…”

     

    When Trump was bragging for two minutes about how high the stock market – The Dow jones Index –  was, he called 30 thousand a sacred number.

  185. 185.

    Patricia Kayden

    The guy who paid $750 in taxes has raised 150m since losing the election while Americans line up at food banks and 35m face eviction. But we did get that one stimulus check for $1200 back in March. @realDonaldTrump— NoelCaslerComedy (@CaslerNoel) December 1, 2020

  186. 186.

    Amir Khalid

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Glenn Kirshner has argued on his Youtube channel that a corruptly granted pardon can and should be challenged in court. If such a challenge succeeds, he says, it would establish that such pardons are not valid. What do you make of his argument?

  187. 187.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Amir Khalid: If such a pardon were challenged in court and found to be invalid, that would answer the question.  Until and unless that happens, the betting should be that a pardon is a pardon is a pardon and is valid.

    ETA: One of the issues is what would constitute a corruptly granted pardon.  Bribery?  Marc Rich?  Where is the line?  A pardon that is valid, but a process that is corrupt which results in a conviction would make sure that no one does it anymore.  You bribe me, I pardon you, I go to jail and you go free?  Yeah, that won’t happen twice.

  188. 188.

    Brachiator

    @Jeffro:

    He is not being let off the hook by the theory that people smarter than him pushed him to do X and Y, despite how it would impact him electorally (and down the road, financially).

    Coming late to the thread party, but it seems to me that many of the people behind Trump are just as stupid as he is. Having a gift for making money or accruing power does not make someone a mastermind.

    And Trump at best has the determination and cunning of a third rate criminal. He has claimed to be, at times, a Democrat, an Independent and a Republican. There are some conservative “principles” that he clearly doesn’t give a crap about. And his pretense to be some kind of Christian is laughable. But he saw a way to bully his way to the GOP nomination and manage to get himself elected.

    But that’s all in the past now. His last tricks are almost played out and soon we will be rid of him. He may continue to make noise, but his days as president are numbered.

  192. 192.

    Punchy

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Trump takes in all the $ for pardons, issues the pardons, pardons all the bribers, then resigns and lets Pence pardon Trump and family for all the bribery.  Really the whole pardon thing is ripe for serious abuse when the one weilding it doesnt give a shit about ethics.

  194. 194.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I’ve been thinking there was a good chance that Rudi, or someone very like Rudi, was running this scam without trump’s knowledge– “I can get him to do anything, I go see him, I spend ten minutes telling him he won the election and he’ll go down in history as a great president and be re-elected in ’24, then I could get the big dumb ape to pardon Benedict Arnold and Ethel Rosenberg, and he’d probably ask if they wanted to come to a signing ceremony and take pictures….”

    But this makes me think he was aware of whatever this turns out to be

    Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 28m
    Pardon investigation is Fake News!

  195. 195.

    janesays

    Turns out Bill ‘Ever Lower’ Barr does have his limits, and they are ‘Do I wanna have a career, once this is over?’

    Barr is 70 years old… not sure how many career years he has left in front of him.

  196. 196.

    Brachiator

    @Punchy:

    Trump takes in all the $ for pardons, issues the pardons, pardons all the bribers.

    Alternatively, Trump takes the cash, pardons no one. What are they going to do, sue him?

  197. 197.

    danielx

    @janesays:

    IANAL, but I don’t see many opportunities at white shoe firms coming his way. As the saying goes, Everything Trump Touches Dies….including the careers of many who worked for him.

    I feel reasonably confident he’ll not end up walking around with holes in his shoes, however.

  200. 200.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @danielx: I don’t know, he’s still a two-time ex-atty general, and Mitch McConnell has a 50/50 chance of being majority leader, and they are brothers in believing that there is no higher justice than a right-wing political agenda. I could see a lot of very rich people being willing to pay for Barr’s time

    That said, I think I’ve read that Barr is worth about $30M, so maybe he just wants to spend the rest of his life wheezing at Notre Dame law students about permissiveness and immorality

  201. 201.

    Patricia Kayden

    182,000 daily coronavirus cases and 2,600 Americans dead. And we don't even have the effects of Thanksgiving yet. No federal government response. Trump and most Republican leaders won't even encourage a damn mask. This is unthinkable!— Amy Siskind 🏳️‍🌈 (@Amy_Siskind) December 2, 2020

  202. 202.

    cope

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Too mean to die” my grandmother would say about someone like Barr. Bags of shit in a suit like Barr think they will live forever and act like it. Atwater’s expressions of regret as he prepared to board the Stygian ferry are very atypical. These people’s sense of entitlement makes them feel immortal.

  203. 203.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @CaseyL: Mittens comes the closets to that criteria in the Senate GOP. (and you have to admit, the Mit bot is an endless font of human warmth in that crowd)

  207. 207.

    Aleta

    It’s outrageous that Trump has talked to aides about pardons for his three children.  Leaving out Tiffany like that again.

  211. 211.

    Brachiator

    @Amir Khalid:

    The people he stiffed on pardons would be highly motivated to rat on him.

    He doesn’t much care. Trump still thinks he can get away with anything.

  213. 213.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @CaseyL: Oh think of it from poor little Linsey’s point of view, it not Mitt Bot 2024, pet friendly edition, then it’s Mitch “the original undead lizard man skin walker” McConnell or Ted “Zodiac Killer and will do it again” Cruz. Also Mittens is edgy and a bad boi by GOP standards, not to mention shoulders. The man needs his bromance.

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