Yes, the Trump team is going to continue to do all sorts of shit to try to steal the election.
They will fail.
Keep your eye on them, but ignore the noise and focus on Georgia.
This post is in: Trump Crime Cartel
Yes, the Trump team is going to continue to do all sorts of shit to try to steal the election.
They will fail.
Keep your eye on them, but ignore the noise and focus on Georgia.
Comments are closed.
Frankensteinbeck
You have summed up what I’ve been trying to say beautifully. Thank you.
WaterGirl
Speaking of Georgia:
Balloon Juice for Fair Fight
Click here to donate to GASenate.com (donations split evenly between Ossoff, Warnock, and Fair Fight) Hoping we will have a BJ thermometer for this, but we don’t yet.
Jon Ossoff, Georgia Senate Runoff! (starting at 311,771, hoping DougJ can do a new BJ thermometer for the recount)
Raphael Warnock, Georgia Senate Runoff! (starting at 27,997, hoping DougJ can do a new BJ thermometer for the recount)
Spanky
@Frankensteinbeck: And you have done yoeman’s work all day trying to tamp down the flames as everyone keeps trying to set their hair on fire. Thanks for that.
NickM
Almost a haiku. Thank you for this, Mr. Cole. I was spiraling.
lamh36
Biden team not even frontin them
WaterGirl
@Spanky: We have one person on BJ who spends an equal amount of time fanning the flames! It’s starting to feel deliberate, but who knows?
BC in Illinois
J J MacNab:
Ref. — article from Reuters.
I actually consider this to be good economic news.
bluehill
@lamh36: That would be an interesting strategy. I wonder what court that would start at.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@BC in Illinois: my brother got a text from a friend of his a couple of weeks ago, a retired financial adviser, telling him to take his retirement funds out of stocks before election day, because of civil unrest!
jl
Seems like Dem leadership is still in hunker down mode. Let me know if I am wrong about that, I don’t have time to follow the talky news shows and depressing back and forth on treasonous GOP sabotage.
With a few exceptions, the GOP is attacking the foundations of our country, and are obviously trying to destroy the Biden administration before it starts (which could mean bad news in 2022 and 2024). Shouldn’t there be loud and vigorous pushback on that and leadership Dems calling it for what it is? If there is loud pushback, please let me know where to find it. I don’t hear it.
SFBayAreaGal
Let the bad air out, the good air in.
japa21
@jl:
You mean outside of all the media outlets?
Scott P.
@jl: No hunkering down from Schumer:
https://twitter.com/AlxThomp/status/1323709500419956737
Zzyzx
It’s too late. Outside of a few diehards, the US has accepted that Biden won the election. We’ve started to move beyond the election. Unless Trump can come up with something that actually resembles evidence – which he won’t because we’re not that organized to even think about successfully stealing an election.
The courts are showing that they don’t have an interest of throwing the election to Trump without a real case, and Trump doesn’t have a case.
jl
@Scott P.: Thanks!
Jim Appleton
@BC in Illinois:
I shorted the gun stocks and made a killing.
Bill Arnold
This is good, thanks. The Republicans certainly intend, as a side effect of their election-challenge maneuvers and other scary moves and apparent moves, to reduce Democratic Party focus on the Georgia runnoffs. We can manage both.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@jl: “I’m not listening! Why don’t I hear anything! The Dems are failing me!”
Come on, man
WaterGirl
@Jim Appleton: If that’s for real, then I guess the BJ thermometers for Georgia will be going up in a big way! :-)
Gravenstone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Shit, mine have been out of stocks for the last couple of years just because of all the market fuckery Trump’s insanity was causing. Another minor thing I’ll look forward to is being able to rediversify them once things calm down under Biden.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Scott P.:
ah, I was surprised to see him advocating for debt cancellation
dmsilev
@Zzyzx: Yeah. This is especially true for the ‘GOP legislature throws out election result, names own set of electors’ doom scenario. All those people who were singing and dancing in the streets on Saturday? They’d be back in the streets, and a lot less happy. You’d see a mob out for blood, and I’m not being even slightly metaphorical. I think most of the GOP state reps realize that; there are only a very few on the loony fringe floating that idea. Even a few is too many, but it’s also not nearly enough to pull off what would be a flat-out coup.
jl
@japa21: I listened to this weekend: Meet the Press, transcripts for Tapper’s show, Face the Nation. I didn’t think the guests were strong enough on pushback to standard issue corporate news host BS.
Our opinions may differ.
PsiFighter37
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I bought some stock at the end of October. I wish I had bought quite a bit more, as the market is up more than 10% in November so far.
Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.)
We sent $1000 to Stacey Abrams today.
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “I’m not listening! Why don’t I hear anything! The Dems are failing me!”
Excuse me, that is NOT what I said.
thanks for the link. (Edit: oh now I see there is no link. never mind. I’ll go look for what she said in full and where she said it.)
jackmac
What’s left for the Trump legal eagles to stage besides more Four Seasons Lawn and Garden stunts (or more COVID-19 cases)?
Honestly, they’re stepping on their own dicks at this point.
JMG
I gave $50 each to Warnock and Ossoff just now. I’m guessing they won’t lack for money.
gwangung
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yeah.Progressives have been eating crap with nothing to show for it from the leadership. They HAVE to get rewards for their effort. The progressives were absolutely vital in getting Biden the win (moderates, too, but they can’t have the whole pie like they have before).
PsiFighter37
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: People are foolish if they think Schumer is going down in a primary. Ask the leftists in NYC how their takedowns of Andrew Cuomo went.
Frankensteinbeck
@jackmac:
“Then why are you here?” will go down as one of the great comedy moments of political litigation.
WaterGirl
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.): Thank you!
Curious…
Did you do the Fair Fight link or the Fair Fight Georgia (GASenate.com) that splits evenly between Fair Fight, Ossoff and Warnock?
Zzyzx
@dmsilev: Yeah, and it reminds me of the trillion dollar coin scenario from the debt ceiling debate mixed with the misunderstanding of the 25th amendment that people have been doing.
There’s not a magic series of words that can be said to overthrow an election. Nominating their own slate of electors would violate both state and local law and would indeed lead to a civil war.
Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.)
@WaterGirl: I don’t know; my wife made the payment.
gwangung
@JMG: 33 each to Fair Fight, Ossof and Warnock. Repeat in December.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Except it is. Glad you at least recognize how silly it looks in the mirror.
sorry to interrupt your lazy gloom-mongering with the herculean effort of making a google in order to inform yourself about the thing you were complaining about
schrodingers_cat
@PsiFighter37: Once she loses her primary against Schumer she can get a TV gig and be Always On Camera. Its a win-win for the movement.
PJ
@PsiFighter37: Yeah, if an election were held today, there is no one in New York who could run against Schumer and win. Two years from now may be a different story, but I doubt it – certainly AOC wouldn’t even make a dent in Schumer.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
What the hell is McConnell cooking up? I’m reading that most of the GOP senators have not acknowledged the election results, and that they’re pressuring the GA Secretary of State to resign before the January runoff elections.
I’m guessing they’re trying to prevent certifying of the election by some states so they can throw it to the House.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gwangung:
I think that’s overstating the case more than a little. Their reward for their efforts (I guess I’m not a progressive anymore– though I think most people in this country would consider me fairly left wing) is President-Elect Joe Biden, just like it is for the “moderates”.
trollhattan
@Jim Appleton:
{
rimgunshot!}Chyron HR
@gwangung:
THEY CALLED HIM A SENILE RAPIST
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PsiFighter37: I had that thought, but I’m not a NYer. I forgot about the Cuomo challenge. Was that Cynthia Nixon or Zephyr Teachout ?
ETA: @Chyron HR: I had that thought today too. AOC (!) was boosting Tara Reade’s signal after she’d been pretty well discredited.
Dan B
@Spanky: And I’ve been tearing my hair out all day. FIRE! Can’t keep up!!
lamh36
I’ve seen 3 suggestions about what’s going on outside of a “coup”:
1)it’s all about the GA Senate race, they need the base fired up to counter the changes in GA that made it turn blue and that makes the Senate races competitive.
2)Donnie and co campaign are out of money, so they need to use Chump’s acces to govt taxpaper funds to get around having no money
3)Using 1 & 2 as distraction to shred, burn, or just get rid of any evidence they don’t want found after he leaves that can be used against him.
I think it’s a def of all three.
PJ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Teachout actually got a decent percentage of the vote (because NYers were sick of Cuomo supporting Republicans so that he maintained control of the legislature), but Nixon was crushed. And Cuomo is much less liked than Schumer (I can’t stand him, personally).
Dan B
@lamh36: Great to hear. It makes sense that the Buden team that’s been great at keeping on message has people who can anticipate the right wingers moves.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.): Where, specifically?
Is Fairfight.com the best place to help her help Ossoff and Warnock?
Jim Appleton
@trollhattan:
I’ll be here all week …
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PJ:
even now? Did his Covid bump fade?
Emerald
@gwangung:
Actually that was Black folks. Who lives in those big cities that gave us the win? Some progressives, yes. But mostly Black folks, the base of the Democratic party. They showed up.
What worries me is how few “progressives” seem to be able to see them.
Captain C
@PJ: She might have a decent showing in some of the gentrified neighborhoods of Brooklyn.
HumboldtBlue
Seems like this is appropriate for the times.
Blowing up a deceased whale.
Frankensteinbeck
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
A) He’s an asshole. This is the guy who held the Barrett confirmation on Hillary’s birthday, and made a public announcement that it was a birthday present for her.
B) He does have the Georgia runoffs on his mind, and keeping Trump’s ongoing temper tantrum from interfering is probably on his mind.
No plan more sophisticated than those is needed or likely.
Nicole
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No, he’s still got that, but every time he whines that he doesn’t want to tax billionaires, I remember why I voted for Teachout.
MisterForkbeard
@gwangung: They got nothing? Aside from the most progressive platform in history and a commitment to a lot of progressive priorities?
I can’t even.
geg6
@jl:
Turn on your tv. Seen a bunch of Dems, Schumer on the Senate floor, defending the integrity of the election.
Spanky
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
That is not a very smart man. Most likely just another flavor of obstruction. It’s all he knows how to do
ETA: Besides, I’ll bet he’s pretty distracted with his hands falling off.
CaseyL
Am I that “one person fanning the flames”? I don’t mean to be.
I’m not worried about Trump per se, because he’s the front man, a self-absorbed moron. I’m not that worried about his nutcase followers, because they’re nutcases. I’m worried about Barr and McConnell, because they’re smart and evil, and a chance like this to remake the US in their preferred image won’t come their way again.
Very glad to see Biden is talking to attorneys, and he’s aware that you can’t have “bipartisanship” with the anthrax-and-tire-rim Party.
zhena gogolia
@Chyron HR:
Thank you for refreshing my memory. I knew there was something missing from that comment.
Dan B
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Debt cancellation is a good fiscal stimulus and an end run around Mitch.
Served
Glad we all have our eyes on the important threat right now, hypothetical Senate primaries by progressives two years from now.
Jim Appleton
@Frankensteinbeck:
C. He doesn’t want to go to jail.
E. All of the above.
Captain C
@PJ: Nixon probably torpedoed her own candidacy when she declared that she would fix the MTA. No New Yorker over the age of 3 bought that a celebrity neophyte would have a prayer of doing that.
zhena gogolia
@Emerald:
YESSSSS!
This is one of the reasons I walked out of our church Zoom prayer meeting yesterday.
trollhattan
Amid the chaos I missed the US COVID-19 case count has passed 10,000,000. For reference, New York City’s population is 8.6 million.
Maybe folks will listen to President Biden now. As in today.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Served: no one’s forcing you to comment, or read, about anything.
If you think a topic is more important, bring it up.
PJ
@lamh36: I wonder who is paying the law firms they’ve hired. I’d heard the Trump campaign was broke (don’t know how accurate that was), and I doubt Trump would spend any of his money on it.
What some have suggested, and which seems likely to me, just because it has been Trump’s M.O. his entire life, is that he is filing all of these lawsuits and creating all of this chaos not in any expectation that he will win any of them (because they are all bogus), but because he expects Biden and the Democrats to throw up their hands and be willing to offer him something (hint: a pardon and immunity to state claims) in order to drop the suits and leave peacefully.
This is how he’s stiffed his contractors and business partners all of his life. They end up settling for half or less of what they are owed because they are sick of dealing with Trump.
In this case, I question the legality of any deal with Trump about these things. Trump would also violate any deal as soon as it suited him. So the only upside is lessening Trump’s destruction over the next two months.
I expect Biden and the Democrats would just say “Nuts!” to Donald. They have the law on their side, and, as Josh Marshall keeps repeating, the law is coming for Trump.
Served
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Literally anything else is more important. Your anger is a bit much in this thread.
Kent
Coup leaders are often summarily executed in other countries. I would not want to be some random state legislator in a state full of gun nuts, where sniper rifles are readily available, and any random crazy might be unhinged enough to aim at you. They don’t exactly have secret service protection. They are just ordinary folks living ordinary open lives for the most part.
Jeffro
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: throw GA and PA and AZ and out? Just those states, specifically?
That’s a plan to wreck the Republic. We’ll have help stopping it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Served: I’m not angry, I just found your comment mildly annoying.
You don’t seem to have anything of substance to say, but you’re complaining about other people’s comments. It strikes me as odd.
featheredsprite
How do you know that AOC wants to be a senator?
Or are you shitting on her name because of what you imagine?
Jeffro
@lamh36: #3 is why he’s firing all these agency heads, absolutely
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Bunch of new nyms here this evening.
geg6
@CaseyL:
Biden has had a legal team prepared for all this for weeks, if not months. Barr isn’t as smart as you seem to think he is. And Mitch is a one-trick pony. And he’s the only competent one of the two. He’s just playing along. His statement was (mostly) simply a statement of the facts. Trump had a right to take legal action and prove his case. I’m fine with that, based on the evidence they’ve provided so far and on the fact that they are pushing contradictory arguments based on where and when Trump may have been ahead. IANAL but I don’t think they have a legal leg to stand on.
Kent
It’s a monster fundraising grift. They are trying to raise money online for all these challenges, but half the money is going straight into the campaign to pay off debts. What do you want to guess that the “debts” that get paid off first all all the “bills” from Trump properties and from Trump-family connected consulting companies who have all probably billed and bilked the campaign for millions already.
Ksmiami
@jl: they need to get out in front of this BS NOW
PJ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think Cuomo’s favorability is still up (media certainly love him), but the Democrats I know still consider him an asshole, which is not how they view Schumer.
If Tish James does a good job with the Trump and related prosecutions, I think she could make a serious run at the governorship. But I don’t know if she can pull it off in time for the gubernatorial race in 2022.
Schumer is also up in two years, and I don’t see anyone who could take him down.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: I think I remember that one of old, and I suspect my sin is speaking of The Future Of The Party (!) with insufficient reverence.
ETA:
@PJ:
Heh. That might well inspire the first and only time I would max out to a gubernatorial candidate. And again, not a NYer.
Mike E
Jon Ossoff did a really solid turn on All In with Chris Hayes… he’s on point enumerating the issues and the big fight ahead. I’m impressed.
Chyron HR
@featheredsprite:
I’m sorry, I think you got lost on the way to AOC is 47 dot com.
PJ
@Captain C: She would get those votes for sure, but, right now, I think she would have trouble with a citywide race, let alone in the whole state. She is popular on Twitter, and gets a ton of contributions nationally (she raised more than $30 million this past cycle), which is definitely worth something, but she hasn’t exactly done anything for the city or the state that anyone would notice, except maybe helping to drive away Amazon (not sure how that would play out.)
JoyceH
Hey, I know there are gamers here. I’m not a gamer, but I got a new laptop that’s very ‘gamey’. It’s got one of these backlit keyboards. So I’m hoping someone here can tell me how to get the keyboard to stop cycling through the colors and stop on one.
BC in Illinois
@Jim Appleton:
I got a hot tip and made a well timed purchase of Pfizer stocks.
Unfortunately, I bought up Pfizer Total Landscaping.
PJ
@Captain C: Ha!
One thing I am very much hoping for is that Biden frees up funds for the MTA and rail service in the area more broadly.
gwangung
@Emerald: Yes, black women (though as a POC myself, I see more of a spread of interests where POCs align on the progressive policy side.
@MisterForkbeard:
Progressives have a long memory. They’re thinking of several election cycles, where only the last couple have seen any budging of centrist and moderate stranglehold on the party. Don’t ignore that, because they’e gone through the song and dance before and gotten bupkis for it. Platform is not enough; the party needs to come through with more policy. The blue dogs’ tepid response to ACA and the end result of that tells progressives that the party needs to be more full throated defense of ideas.
opiejeanne
@dmsilev:
I saw Kenneth Starr suggesting this, oh so delicately on Fox. I laughed and turned it off:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Ha! Ali Velshi, subbing for Rachel Maddow: There are no Biden family members on his Covid advisory board, there are no TV personalities…
Served
@Chyron HR: AOC has been a great legislator so far and has done an admirable job educating and engaging young people about issues and Congress in general. I don’t really know how high her ceiling or ambition is but she has been a fantastic addition to the caucus.
The way that some commenters here are just as snide and nasty about her as maga chuds on Twitter is jarring.
PJ
@Kent: That sounds about right.
Jim Appleton
@PJ:
Another part of this is simply iDJT’s impetuousness.
He decides it’s important to do x and everyone around him who hasn’t eaten their own face scrambles to make x happen, no matter how stupid.
I don’t think anyone is calculating the cost or benefit of contesting outcomes.
It’s all knee jerk more or less directly from iDJT.
Kent
@PJ: Are you guys just spitballing this? AOC seems pretty savvy to me and I doubt she has any illusions that she could succeed in any state-wide primary challenge to Cuomo or Schumer or anyone. She has a bright future in front of her in the House where she will never lose if she does the minimum to service her district. Why toss that away for tilting at lefty windmills?
You have to have Kennedy clout to try to primary a sitting Senator and even that didn’t work up in MA.
MisterForkbeard
@Served: She’s a good legislator and is a great ambassador. She also has a tendency to turn her ire on moderates in party, though I thought she’d outgrown it.
WaterGirl
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Check out the links and thermometers I have at #3 above.
There are separate BJ thermometers for all 3 – Fair Fight, Ossoff, and Warnock.
There’s also a link – that we don’t have a BJ thermometer for yet – that automatically splits your donations equally between those three. (Though we won’t able to see what we accomplish on a BJ thermometer.)
The thread under Election Action also mentions some other organizations, and I plan to do a post tomorrow or Wednesday where I talk about (and link to) other organizations that Stacey Abrams also credited for the win.
Maybe that helps?
different-church-lady
[sigh] OK… I’ll calm down…
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@WaterGirl: Yes, thanks.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: I don’t like to wish ill on people, and I try never to do that, so maybe it’s wrong that I wouldn’t mind if McConnell’s dick fell off?
Served
@MisterForkbeard: moderates are constantly turning their fire on liberals too. It’s just the way a coalition this broad works
WaterGirl
@Nicole: He’s been great with COVID, so all props to him for that. But teaming up with the Republicans all those years when he was ostensibly a Democratic governor, I will neither forget nor forgive him for that.
RaflW
I’m just gonna say that “The Progressives” is not a thing. I think of myself as a progressive (and a liberal – how confusing! Well, it isn’t, really). Rose twitter was a shitshow, but I don’t really even know what that is. I suspect it’s at least tinged with RU bullshit.
Anyway, progressives are all over the map, and not organized enough to be said to have done or not done this or that big thing. Heck, Democrats feel not organized. (Yeah, insert Will Rogers joke here).
Most of all, really, I want us to be rooting for intramural injuries among the Republicans for now. And being on the lookout for accelerating skulduggery. I think John is correct, that this will flame out like most Trump circuses do. But I won’t rest easy till Jan 21. And then we have to fight off the shitlord McConnell all the more!
Jim Appleton
@WaterGirl:
Upside down on a post, maybe?
I can see that.
Sort of …
trnc
I agree they’re trying to delegitimize it, but throwing it to the house wouldn’t make much sense.
Frankensteinbeck
@WaterGirl:
I believe schadenfreude is morally wrong. I believe wishing ill on anyone is wrong, and almost never do. But some people need to be removed from a position where they can hurt the world, and McConnell, perhaps even more than Trump, is one of those people. I am left hoping whatever McConnell is sick with will be terminal because I can think of no other way to protect everyone from him.
Suzanne
I am definitely one of the people getting really concerned about shenanigans. I have no confidence that any of our institutions will hold now, not after the last four years.
Danielx
@jl:
Don’t take it to heart – wouldn’t be BJ if jackals didn’t snarl at each other from time to time.
WaterGirl
@CaseyL: Yep, smart and evil is a bad combination. And no, I was not thinking of you.
jimmiraybob
My take……looks at authoritarian playbook…..is that the Trump team is attempting to set up a leader-in-exile insurgency that will be run out of Mar a Lago, attempting to get Florida to lead the rush of states succeeding from the Union in Confederacy 2.0 Rudy will lead an artillery unit to fire on Fort Sumter (Total Landscaping) in a symbolic gesture to excite the MAGA guerilla troops and the wet gunpowder will fail to ignite. History will judge.
The people will scratch their head and lots of WTFs will be tweeted.
Epic. There will be documentaries. Ken Burns will not produce one. Coen Bros will.
Cut to 2023, when Jr. announces the Don, Jr. – Ivanka 2020 campaign. Make that 2024 campaign….who really cares……
HumboldtBlue
@WaterGirl:
He’s not using it anyhow, so yeah, fuck him.
CarolPW
@JoyceH: So sorry I can’t help (my gaming is on dedicated consoles) but I very much appreciated learning of the absurdity of rotating keyboard backlight colors.
MisterForkbeard
@Served: I think Abigail Spanberger fucked up by screaming about “progressives” in a way that didn’t actually describe any progressive policies. And she did it in a closed door meeting, though I’m sure she knew it would be leaked.
AOC publicly did a similar thing to moderates. It was stupid, she made some very questionable assertions, and I don’t like that either.
If we want AOC to get ahead in this party (and I do, she’s generally great) she needs to cut that shit out, or at least tone it down. It really doesn’t help that she has an outsize amount of attention relative to her seniority and actual power to get things done – when she goes on a tear against democrats it gets a lot of media and youth attention. Neither are good if she wields that power irresponsibly.
WaterGirl
@Emerald: I think lots of us see that, here, and know they have carried our behinds when we were too stupid to see it. Agree that not nearly enough people see that.
PJ
@Served: She’s done pretty well in the committee hearings I’ve seen her in. But she spent this weekend on Twitter, and in the NYT interview, attacking Democrats for not showing her sufficient fealty, and blaming losses by candidates in red or purple states for not running enough Facebook ads (she spent at least $5 million on Facebook ads this year, in a district where there is zero chance a Republican can win.) Being an internet celebrity does not mean you could have won in a red state, nor does it mean you know better than your colleagues, many of whom have been doing this for more than two years.
MisterForkbeard
@JoyceH: It depends on the individual laptop you got, but there’s usually a control center you can use to turn that shit off. About half the time it’s in your system tray.
What brand of laptop is this?
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: Probably not as satisfying as it would have been to stand up and walk out of a live service would have been. The things we give up because of COVID!
different-church-lady
@WaterGirl: Have you seen him recently? It might have already happened.
Anya
I think one thing that worked for Trump is he is very good at bullshit and PR. And it’s not only Trump, the republicans are so good at lying about everything. The up is down and the sky is red. The Democrats, on the other hand are very pessimistic. We always want everything to be perfect and we are never happy unless everything is 100%. In this case, we are already engaged in recriminations when we should be focusing on the big win. It’s not easy to defeat an incumbent president and we did it. Now we need to scream the fact all the damn time.
Fuck these losers. We’re not going to let them gaslight us.
MisterForkbeard
@different-church-lady: More to the point, I don’t think anyone here has seen IT in a while, so maybe it happened already.
PJ
@Kent: I didn’t raise the issue – Jim quoted someone from the twitters advocating that AOC primary Schumer (you see a lot of leftists wishing for this). I think she’s smart enough not to try this now, but she also seems to be someone who too often believes her own press.
SFBayAreaGal
Couldn’t even wait a week. So it begins, the circular firing squad has arrived. Well the camaraderie almost lasted a week.
Nicole
@WaterGirl:
I hear you. I was really hoping he’d had a Road to Damascus moment with Covid, but when he started whimpering that, no, we can’t tax the NY Billionaires, what if they get mad at us and MOVE? I saw that no, he’s still Cuomo.
different-church-lady
@MisterForkbeard: I… uh… why would anyone here have ever seen it?!?
Kent
fixed that for you!
WaterGirl
@JoyceH: I’m laughing but at the same time I can see how that would not be funny at all when it’s happening to you on your new toy.
Mike E
BJ jackals: “AOC needs to get off our lawns!”
smdh
MisterForkbeard
@SFBayAreaGal: Yeah. I was really hoping people could just enjoy this and work together, but the polls being off means that everyone has to yell at each other, apparently.
I’m just hopeful they get it all out of their system.
karensky
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: McConnell and Barr are freaking out about the Georgia runoffs. So, as Cole says, keep Georgia on your mind and ignore the bullshit from Torquemada (Barr) and the flailing turtle.
MisterForkbeard
@different-church-lady: Look, I don’t kinkshame. If someone here is into human-tortoise hybrids, that’s their thing.
@Mike E: Nah, we just want Democrats to calm down and stop useless circular firing squads. That includes AOC, but it also includes a bunch of less-visible folks on the moderate side. And it’s why Schumer is already talking about a $15 minimum wage, etc.
Jim Appleton
@Anya:
Agree, but I can’t help thinking that the millions of jubilant folks on the t.v. Saturday sent a message to the ossified Democritans.
WaterGirl
@gwangung: In a big tent party, nobody can get everything they want. Which I know you know. Everybody feels entitled, and everyone has felt mistreated or under appreciated along the way.
It’s discouraging to see all the infighting that is already popping up, even now. I am amazed that we held it together through the election and the 5 days of waiting for results.
PJ
@MisterForkbeard: Why should Spanberger be sure a private meeting would be leaked? Does that happen with every Democratic caucus conference call?
She should have kept her cool, but it was two days after the election and Spanberger had just pulled out a victory after having to deal with the “defund the police” arguments that almost sank her, so I can understand being frustrated and wanting to express that privately (unlike AOC, she’s made no public statements about it.)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MisterForkbeard: and before the election, she gave that interview to Vanity Fair where she talked about all her disappointment with the Democrats. While the rest of us were trying to get Republicans out of power.
Also, telling her followers that we have to abandon “incrementalism”. Incrementalism isn’t a choice, it’s how things happen in this political system. If she’s selling fantasies of “revolution” to all those young people who follow her, she’s lying to them.
Yup. She’s obviously very smart, which makes her seemingly willful cluelessness about politics outside of her district, and her twitter feed, all the more frustrating. Frankly, I suspect that like her mentor Bernie, she’s a narcissist. He got drunk on his crowds, she got drunk on her press.
PAM Dirac
@geg6:
Yeah I just don’t see where the super genius comes in. If they have the smarts and the stacked courts and all these other powers at their command, why didn’t they stop the vote counting? I know all they have is bluster and bull shit, but if that is enough, why didn’t they block things earlier? It certainly isn’t because the “overturn” angle is much stronger case than the “stop the vote” case and obviously when everyone is calling Biden the winner, it makes any strategy harder to pull off. I think they are doing what they always do, stumble along throwing out whatever bullshit occurs to them at the moment and hoping something sticks and whatever happens they always have the grift. Doesn’t mean it should be ignored, but it seems Biden’s team is actually the team that is smart, prepared and organized. I like their chances.
PJ
@SFBayAreaGal: AOC launched her attack on moderates on Saturday, right as the country was celebrating.
Comrade Colette
@WaterGirl: His dick and his hands. I’ll settle for nothing less.
MisterForkbeard
@PJ: Inflammatory things from these caucus-wide meetings usually DO get leaked, actually. Even if she didn’t know it was absolutely going to, she had to know it probably would be.
And yes, I agree: There’s a big difference between a ‘private’ conference meeting and a public fight.
PJ
@MisterForkbeard: $15 minimum wage was one of Biden’s platforms.
Served
@PJ: I absolutely do not see any of her comments as being rooted in “not showing her sufficient fealty.”
Most of her points this weekend were in response to the “leaked” call where moderates blamed progressives for losses, even though it seems too early to really identify what happened. It’s fair game. Maybe Democrats didn’t spend enough on Digital. Maybe some targeted poorly. Maybe partisan ID was too powerful overcome with an issue-based campaign. Those seem like innocuous campaign tactic critiques and not the progressive tantrum they are being framed as.
Now-former DCCC chairwoman Bustos almost got surprise upset, and had to inject major cash at the last minute.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Frankensteinbeck:
My fervent hope is that in his final moments of his worthless life, he’ll realize that he will die unmourned and that Andy Beshear will name Charles Booker to replace him.
MisterForkbeard
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I really don’t believe this. I think she’s young, intelligent, and principled and that sometimes she wants to get out there and tell her truth without understanding what that means to other people. And that more important, she really is a counterpuncher – she saw her team being attacked and went out to fight back.
gwangung
@WaterGirl: Yes. It applies to all the factions in the Democratic parties. Nobody is going to get everything they want…but nobody is going to (or should be) be shut out.
WaterGirl
@Served: Many people like and respect her here.
Some think she has done some great things but also has a lot to learn, and that she sometimes steps in it.
Some believe that she thinks more about herself than about the democratic team, and that she is not always a team player.
There is a whole array of AOC opinions here.
MisterForkbeard
@PJ: Yes. And also a major progressive position that got incorporated into the Democratic platform. They won it and got it there, and now it’s being pursued.
It’s similar with college loan forgiveness – they’re saying they’ll forgive $50k/student through the executive branch. This is fantastic! It’s a big progressive action and they’re talking about doing it ASAP.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@trnc: As has been pointed out here, when an election is thrown to the House, each state gets one vote. Thus the Republicans outvote the Democrats in that election.
WaterGirl
@MisterForkbeard:
Me, too.
Served
I also have little sympathy for any moderate who isn’t able to differentiate themselves from activists’ slogans. A lot of non-progressives didn’t have that problem!
Maybe some of these people were bad candidates if they let themselves get defined by a policy that is currently on the far fringe of the caucus.
Bill Arnold
@Chyron HR:
The ones that did outed themselves as ProFa.
gwangung
@WaterGirl: Huh. I think the only recent major politician who hasn’t stepped in it was Obama. And that kind of performance is rare.
Folks need to keep perspective on politicians. There ain’t no such thing as a perfect political performance record….
Jim Appleton
@WaterGirl:
Bless you and keep you, WaterGirl.
MisterForkbeard
@gwangung: I think what I meant to say earlier is that there’s no indication that progressives ARE being shut out. They’re getting a lot of their priorities in: some student debt forgiveness, $15 minimum wage, etc.
That they don’t get all of it doesn’t mean they don’t get rewarded. I just hope they recognize what they’ve earned and keep working for more, just like I hope other groups do too.
Mike E
@MisterForkbeard: Meh, a lot of the noise-to-signal interference we’ve been living with the last 4+ years needs to have a chance to settle down some, before we get to panicking about message discipline. This, right after we just defeated Hitler. Again.
Kristine
@WaterGirl: That’s a hella nicer than some of the things I’ve wished on him lately. At times of late I scare myself.
RSA
@BC in Illinois: LOL. Good one.
WaterGirl
@HumboldtBlue: Yet he screws people, over and over, every day!
mad citizen
@jimmiraybob: Coen Bros. have already done the prequel, Burn After Reading. I remember seeing it in the theater the first time and thinking, that was….odd. In parts funny–Brad Pitt and Frances McDormand. It gets way funnier upon more viewings. Has become one of my favorites.
….Osbourne Cox?………..Osbourne Cox?
MisterForkbeard
@Mike E: I’m hopeful people just calm down and appreciate the Hitler removal for awhile. No need to attack our allies, you know?
I’m not too angry about it yet. Everyone’s still a bit on edge, I think. And we’ve learned a lot of protective reflexes over the past few years we’re going to have to unlearn.
ballerat
@WaterGirl:
Gave $30 to GASenate.com on Friday, about all we can manage now after donating to Biden/Harris and our state races.
But I know enough of those small donations can really add up and make a difference.
WaterGirl
@MisterForkbeard: @PJ:
I love both of these comments.
Emma from FL
@Mike E: She needs to expand her reach within the party, which is NOT only so-called progressives. I don’t like performance politics; they seldom lead to anything. She needs legislative successes, she needs allies that will work with her, and she flipping needs to understand she needs allies in the power structure.
patrick II
@WaterGirl:
That’s not so bad. Elaine Chao would thank you.
RSA
@trnc:
Right. A Washington Post column games it out.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yes. The candidates who flipped R districts blue and then held them are bad candidates, and the (admittedly) savvy media player who beats a tired incumbent in a low turnout primary in one of bluest districts in the country is The Future Of The Party (!)
Suzanne
@MisterForkbeard: I agree with your assessment. I like her, for the most part, even if there are times I think she could be a smoother politician and more graceful with situations. But fuck it, she’s right. I am probably more progressive than many here, and I think that the progressives are a vitally important part of the coalition, especially considering how we actually got the youth to turn out this year, it seems.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@patrick II: to borrow from the Algonquin Round Table, how would she know?
gwangung
@MisterForkbeard: Yeah, I think they are getting more say in party initiatives, but I think they won’t feel it’s real until they get the policy implemented (which is understandable)
@Emma from FL: Yeah, she’s building a beach head on the left, but she needs to extend a coalition rightwards just a bit.
David ?Booooooo!? Koch
Act Blue has raised $41 million dollars in the 48 hours since the Biden/Harris speech
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: It seems like more than one to me. It is enough that I, who apparently lack Frankensteinbeck’s patience, have found it necessary to walk away from the blog a few times lest I blow up at people.
WaterGirl
@Mike E: I would describe it more as a combination of “if you’re gonna make mistakes, it’s best not to do it in the spotlight” and “stop shitting on the people who have been in the trenches a lot longer than you have, and who more than you do about a lot of things”.
At the same time, I think she brings a lot of good things to the table. But I think she stepped in shit this time, just like she did after her first election questioning Madame Speaker. I think she gets too big for her britches.
I have a lot of respect for how she handled it when the stupid R politician said such a disrespectful thing about her in public, and I have a ton of respect for her twitter game.
Mostly she handlers her oversized spotlight pretty well, but when she doesn’t she does that in a pretty big way, which I don’t like.
PJ
@Served: Personally, I don’t think Facebook ads are the problem when you are running as Democrat in a R+6 district.
But what I think is really stupid is, when Democrats have spent months working to win the election and are still waiting for results, to choose to set up interviews with the NYT and Jake Tapper to talk about how the Democrats failed because they didn’t listen to you. I know AOC didn’t know the election would be called for Biden and Harris the day her interview dropped, but it certainly looked like she just wanted the conversation to be about her when everyone else was celebrating. She had dozens of tweets about what Democrats did wrong, and how they should have listened to her, vs. one congratulating Biden and Harris, and three retweets about the Biden/Harris victory.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Holy shit. Tom Friedman on CNN right now just called the GOP a “deeply disturbed party”; that they can’t even make the small sacrifice of giving up their $174,000 salary and free parking at airports to criticize Trump and said that soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria are ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. This is incredible
HumboldtBlue
@MisterForkbeard:
You’re doing Yeoman’s work.
One other thing about BJ is that it’s a Boomer dominated blog, maybe no front pagers but the comments section sure is and the vast majority of commenters are ridiculously educated, accomplished and informed and now are faced with a younger and hungrier cohort entering their full careers/lives.
It’s an interesting mix and one I think is going to bear fruit.
AOC and the others are coming from a different Democratic neighborhood than most of the commenters here and it was pointed out repeatedly during the primaries that young folks are leaning progressive.
My two youngest and sharpest former coworkers both voted for Bernie and that progressive rhetoric — whether it’s healthcare, college costs, wages, child care — is what they’re hearing and responding to.
There is a core of Gen Xers, me, John, Betty I know for sure but I am sure there are many more but there is a generational split here.
Old school Dems know the game and how it’s currently played but as you pointed out Progressive policies have been incorporated into the platform and more will come.
Danielx
@patrick II:
if ever there was an image I didn’t need….
PJ
@Served: I don’t know where you live, but it’s a problem in Republican districts. Voters there believe Democrats actually want to defund the police because they see Democrats repeating “Defund the Police.” You can try and separate yourself from it all you want, but when it’s repeated on Fox News and in Republican ads ad nauseum, and some Democrats use it themselves, it tends to stick.
WaterGirl
@gwangung: Totally agree.
Served
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: lmao take a breath pops. Where did I say any of that about AOC? You’re reading things into comments that aren’t there on this thread and you interpret everything to the extreme.
I just said that if these candidates let themselves be tied to Defund the Police they didn’t do a very good job as a candidate, especially because plenty of other candidates didn’t have that problem.
JoyceH
@MisterForkbeard: It’s an ASUS TUF VR ready gaming laptop. (Got it because it was speedy with a lot of memory.) My sister had a backlit keyboard for her gaming desktop and the cat would change the color walking on the keyboard, so I figure it must just be a keystroke or two.
MisterForkbeard
@Suzanne: 10 (and 15) years ago I would have been really solidly in the ‘progressive’ camp. And I still am, mostly – most of the proposed solutions are some of the best and correct things to do.
But many are also politically impossible, or require incremental change. So I’ve drifted away from the movement because I can’t stand the purity tests and impatience that idealism brings. I see people scream about how Kamala Was A Cop and didn’t fix everything everywhere in CA’s legal system, and I have to remind them that Obama had a nationwide blowup in 2009 because he said a white cop had acted stupidly when he arrested a black man at the black man’s house for trespassing.
They rightly believe in systemic racism and that the police have an incredibly protected space in society but can’t apply that same reasoning to why a black person wouldn’t have gone after the police. It’s maddening and I had to detach from it.
But I do respect that idealism, which is one reason I like AOC. Most of the time she marries that idealism to practicality. And sometimes she whiffs, as she did here.
Sebastian
@Kent:
Used to be a fan but I am starting to despise her. She is worse than Bernie.
Happy to elaborate
Hidden Person
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: I’ve been wondering if a knowledgeable jackal could weigh in to comment on this potential strategy. E.g., could GOP operatives stall things long enough that electoral votes from Wisconsin would not be certified at the state level and therefore not included in the national tally?
Served
@PJ: this quickly becomes “never talk about liberal ideas, you’ll scare away the moderates” and then what do we expect the left to do
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MisterForkbeard: she’s young, she’s not that young, and she’s certainly smart enough to understand what Nancy Pelosi meant about glasses of water, unless she just doesn’t want to understand it.
In that interview, she effectively declared herself the voice of “the base”. If she represented the base, Bernie Sanders would have been the nominee. He was not. The actual base rather emphatically chose Joe Biden. And that wasn’t even the most dishonest, actually demagogic, part of that interview she gave to the most prominent platform she could find. On the day most of us were celebrating the end of the trump presidency. Because her feelings were hurt.
different-church-lady
@HumboldtBlue:
I am thoroughly middle aged and I am leaning progressive. But I absolutely goddamned understand there’s ways of being progressive that don’t alienate everyone who isn’t. And all too often AOC doesn’t seem to give a shit about it.
ballerat
@Frankensteinbeck: I agree with everything you said, except I don’t have a problem with schadenfreude.
I figure god made schadenfreude as a small compensation for some of the harm mean unrepentant assholes cause in this world.
pajaro
So far, there are two or three things that have happened,
First McConnell and Barr are basically setting out what can happen–Trump has the right to go to Court, US Attorneys can investigate allegations of federal elections violations–and are happy if it scares the libs and is reported as propping up Trump. But Mitch has not claimed that fraud has occurred, nor has Barr convened any investigations.
Second, where Trumpkins have made allegations of fraud, they’ve been asked to prove them, and they can’t because there isn’t any. The US Senators from Georgia, who alleged that their own Secretary of State should step down were told to go pound sand by the Secretary. (They also seemed to have missed that they were questioning the validity of the election where they were elected.) They have no strategy for winning these cases, which would require courts no throw out tens of thousands of votes that have been counted. Trump is touting a filing in Wisconsin to overturn the results in Wisconsin, and seems to be unaware that the results won’t even be certified for another three weeks. The head of the Trump legal team, who isn’t a lawyer, is down with Covid, caught in the super-spreader party held at the White House election night. Fox news cut off Trump spokespersons tonight when they claimed fraud. They weren’t able to put together a press conference last week.
Don’t get me wrong, the Trumpkins are incredibly dangerous, they are inciting violence, and they are absolutely about creating a stab in the back narrative that they hope to be able to use, as much as possible, in the months and years ahead. They may poison the well, as well is create a platform for Trump’s new network, but they are not going to overturn the election.
The smarter folk, including Mitch, Rupert and the Supremes, will play along, pocket their money and judges, and do what they can to neuter the new administration, but they aren’t going to die on the hill that Trump wants them to. The Supreme Court wants to help Republicans, cripple unions, disenfranchise minorities for a generation–they are not going to risk what they have to save Trump, when it would take rulings invalidating the results of multiple states, on no discernible legal ground. Mitch is going to pocket his winnings, and trust gerrymandering and the electoral college to give him control of Congress and the White House in the next election.
so, no, I don’t think they are going to fight the battle Trump wants him to fight. But if we want to win this war, we really need Georgia in January.
And yes, John said this far more elegantly.
HumboldtBlue
Here’s an absolutely brilliant thread from Michael Harriot responding a provocative question about voter ID laws.
Leto
@JoyceH: Here you go: https://youtu.be/idOHjLNWz3U
MisterForkbeard
@JoyceH: What I’m seeing is that you need to download an ASUS program called “TUF Aura Core” if you don’t have it already.
I think you need to be in the “basic effects” tab, then click “static” under effects and set the Color to white and you get a normal backlit keyboard. You can also just turn it off entirely here.
There might be other ways to do it, but… <shrug>
@Leto: Literally the same video I found, but the speaker annoyed me incredibly so I just went for instructions instead. :)
debbie
@PJ:
I hope you’re right, and I hope she realizes she won’t glide into Schumer’s leadership position on Day 1.
mad citizen
@RSA: I thought there was some talk that the two current Georgia Senators’ terms end Jan 3 so from Jan 3 through the 5th they aren’t there, allowing a D majority (though as I type this wondering why their terms would end on the third?). But, given how slow Georgia counts votes, they might not have sent their Senators to the Senate by Jan 6, which is when the columnist says the Congressional EC vote counting happens…
PsiFighter37
Folks, here’s the easiest thing to note: AOC got 68% of the vote in the general election (as of now). If that holds, it is the lowest percentage of the general election vote that her or Joseph Crowley will have gotten in NY-14 as it is current constituted. It might be a sign that maybe she should get back to focusing on her constituents instead of pushing a national agenda that is not terribly popular (fair or not).
Honestly, her and Bernie’s inability to understand that their beliefs – and especially their branding of it – does not work pisses me off. That is how a wannabe Bernie Bro like Kara Eastman manages to blow an easily winnable district for us (NE-02) 2 years in a row, and pissed off the moderate Democrat who held it before her so much that he endorsed the Republican incumbent.
Sebastian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I agree with that sentiment. She has no boundaries and does not see others as individuals.
I survived an abusive relationship and learned to recognize certain behavioral patterns as red flags. She did something this weekend that had all alarms going off.
She is dangerous.
Dan B
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: AOC is smart, charismatic, and very young. She will be better in ten years if she picks up on what some other more seasoned pols, even in the progressive caucus, are doing.
I believe that the Biden / Harris team knows where to apply leverage to keep things moving in the right direction. For the young it can seem like sitting still.
Most every progressive movement made mistakes that caused blowback but eventually got it together to produce small victories that made the big ones possible. A black and South Asian female VP. Wow! Obama and Hillary paved the way. We had a huge setback in Trumpism but here we are!
H.E.Wolf
My guess is that Rep. Ocasio-Cortez is as exhausted right now as we all are. Tired people make mistakes. (Well, okay, I do.) This is a good week to cut our fellow Democrats – elected and non-elected – some slack.
Postcard-writing colleagues… http://PostcardsToVoters.org is gearing up to GOTV for the elections in GA. Anyone who hasn’t signed up yet, and is interested, now’s a great time to join!
PJ
@Served: The point is that “defund the police” isn’t a liberal idea or policy (might be a leftist one, but I’ve heard too many different definitions of what “defund the police” means to know.) It’s not in the Democratic Platform, but it is espoused by more far left members of Congress.
CarolPW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: @different-church-lady: Perfect, thanks!
Mike E
@MisterForkbeard: oh I’m with you there on being defensive during this shitshow, I feel like I can stretch my legs again
@Emma from FL: I guess I’m more patient about her reaching her potential. Ymmv
Jim Appleton
@HumboldtBlue:
This is astute.
My own nieces, nephews, etc look a lot like AOC and Kamala. Our shared experience means that my solid protestant white Boomer CV is enhanced by a rich inheritance that doesn’t obviate my own past, but makes all of us more vital.
HumboldtBlue
@different-church-lady:
I am too, in fact I’m pretty much on board with the idealism but as Forkbeard has so eloquently stated, it’s tiresome and we all learn at one point that getting good things done and getting things that need change get changed takes time and effort.
I firmly believe that as she gains experience she’ll adapt like we all had to.
I absolutely love the look, the sound, the ideas, and the energy coming from The Squad and their ilk and I truly think Dems will be stronger as they work their way into the party.
MisterForkbeard
@H.E.Wolf: Right there with you. I think everyone’s still very emotional (and especially was while AOC gave the interview, as the race hadn’t been called yet) and prone to saying things they wouldn’t normally.
I don’t want to bash on her or anyone else much. Everyone needs to unlearn a lot of the defensiveness we got from the LAST election.
Aleta
WaterGirl
@pajaro: Thanks for this. It’s helpful to see it spelled out.
Dan B
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I like your plot!
It would take a suspension of belief that Mitch could have feelings but one could hope.
Leto
@Served: as I told a coworker in 2016, when he repeatedly said that the nomination was stolen from Bernie, you can always go and form you own party. If the Dems can’t/won’t do anything for you, then it’s in your constituents best interest that you leave the party and join other members who share their beliefs. Join other members who will immediately be able to draft/pass legislation at the local/state/federal level to bring wholesale change to the American people
Edit: @different-church-lady: this. All of this. It’s like they never played a goddamned team sport in their lives.
Gin & Tonic
@HumboldtBlue: Good thread, but funny thing – here in reliably-blue RI, with a legislature of 66 D, 8 R and one I, voter ID passed easily several years ago.The generally-accepted story is that the Black Democrats in the Legislature supported it to try to reduce the votes of the “new kids” – meaning the Hispanic/Latino bloc.
different-church-lady
@Aleta:
NARRATOR: “Prosecutions were opened on specious claims.”
HumboldtBlue
@Gin & Tonic:
Huh. That’s interesting.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Dan B:
Again, she’s not that young. She just looks to young to buy beer. She’s over thirty. Western Pennsylvania shouldn’t be that hard to understand for someone with a degree in International Affairs (cum laude!). A sitting MoC ought to be able to grasp the anti-majoritarian realities of the Senate.
On a subject of possibly greater interest: I suddenly lost twitter on my laptop, but the last thing I saw was pictures of earthmovers tearing up the White House lawn. A tweeter said it was like the tenant who kicks holes in the walls the night before the eviction notice gets posted. Anybody know what’s up?
Served
@different-church-lady: And Rep Spanberger who was chastising Democrats on the call that was “accidentally” leaked? We really can’t just say “it’s okay to punch left but if they punch back they are destroying the party.”
lgerard
Good new for Rudy!
There are no shortage of Four Seasons Landscaping companies in Georgia!
Bill Arnold
@WaterGirl:
Perhaps he’s been abusing Phoneutria nigriventer venom.
(Not sorry :-)
HumboldtBlue
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I know I, and I think others also, am referring to her as “young” in the context of being an elected official at the Federal level.
It’s a huge step from “Jenny on the block” to “Madam Congresswoman” and I think that shows in her words and actions. She, just like most of us I suspect at 30 or so, impatient that government isn’t moving in the direction she wants fast enough.
Hell, I still think that and I’m over 50.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
me too, and me too, but I also get the reason government moves so slow and we have to deal with incrementalism is Republicans, not other Democrats. ETA: Well, okay, some other Democrats. But some of the incremental change we’ve acheived in the last decade is that our caucuses in both houses are far less conservative than when Obama had majorities.
PsiFighter37
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, she is in her early 30s – maybe a couple years younger than me at most. She does know better – or, you know what? Maybe she isn’t all that smart and simply got lucky picking off a congressman asleep at the switch.
To me, NYC’s politics are very complex (just like California’s) – it is not a liberal paradise by any means; after all, it had Republican mayors for 20(!) straight years (if you bundle in Bloomberg’s last 7 as an independent). Just because you are sitting in a heavily majority-minority district that is going to vote Democratic, hell or high water, does not mean you understand what is going on nationally. She should just look at Bill de Blasio and see what happens to progressive / very liberal NYers who are lazy at their jobs, think they are smarter than they actually are, and don’t deliver.
David ?Booooooo!? Koch
? Adam L Silverman ?
Could you comment on why Dump wants to fire Gina Haspel
Thank you
PsiFighter37
@Served: Spanberger is a phenomenal political talent. Do you know how hard it is to win – and then hold – the kind of district she does? One that sent that tool Eric Cantor to Congress repeatedly, and THEN BOOTED HIM because he wasn’t conservative enough?
She has every right to be upset, and while I think some of it is misplaced, it goes to prove the very point I was making here back in June, which was that the rhetoric around police funding was way off the mark and prove to be politically troublesome.
PsiFighter37
@David ?Booooooo!? Koch: Didn’t collude hard enough with the Russians this time around / didn’t exonerate him enough for last time around. Or maybe because she’s a woman. Who knows?
Sebastian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Trump campaign had to pay for damages to turf during Rose Garden Superspreader event.
Kristine
Not sure if Vanity Fair is an A-grade source, but this is entertaining if nothing else:
“Sources said a Lord of the Flies atmosphere has enveloped the West Wing, with Trump advisers accusing each other of looking out for themselves. Two sources speculated that a report saying Jared Kushner had advised Trump to concede was a way for Kushner to position himself to his New York friends as a rational voice. “Jared is taking care of Jared,” one Trump adviser said.“
CaseyL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Either a fortress (which means nothing; as has been stated, Biden doesn’t need to be in the WH in order to be President) – or maybe they plan to just blow the whole thing up.
Yeah, that’ll win them a lot of hearts and minds.
HumboldtBlue
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Indeed, you and I have figured that out and now we have a group of very talented, engaged, but very green and hungry young Democrats who are going to learn that lesson as well.
The commentariat here is well-seasoned, experienced and knowledgeable but they weren’t at her age.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Served:
And “How do you do, fellow kids” to you. You’ve been gone a while, but you’ve been here a bit too long to be trying on the Young Voter costume from your collection.
MisterForkbeard
@HumboldtBlue: God knows I was an educated professional at 31 and still made a couple of really boneheaded mistakes. It happens.
Kay
@Aleta:
ABL is right. If career prosecutors are concerned, and they’re more than concerned, they’re speaking to to the NYTimes without using their names because they fear reprisals, then you should be concerned.
Barr is corrupt. The idea that he can be trusted to conduct investigations into voters and voter fraud is laughable. He has already conducted one completely politicized investigation into voter fraud in Pennsylvania and he has spent the last 6 months traveling the country lying about voter fraud.
HumboldtBlue
@MisterForkbeard:
I’m gonna refrain from listing the stupid decisions I have made in just the past month.
CarolPW
@PsiFighter37: And while Spanberger was peeved she did not go to the FTFNYT to broadcast it.
WhatsMyNym
@PsiFighter37: Just for comparison: Pramila Jayapal got 83%! How much press does she get? Oh, I forgot she’s not in NYC.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
Didn’t Barr watch the level of celebrations on Saturday and Sunday across the country like the rest of us on television? Does he think he has any credibility at all? Does he truly think himself so invincible in the face of such a popular rejection?
Immanentize
@Emma from FL: AOC and Markey cross co-sponsor (House and Senate) the Green New Deal. That ain’t nothing and she is leading the climate change fight in the House. She probably saved Markey in Mass. which was a very good thing from my perspective.
Once again it is very clear to me that people who are yammering about what AOC said never read her interview. She never attacked moderates running moderate campaigns, she attacked anyone running a 2005 campaigns in 2020. She is right about that. Did y’all see what she accomplished on Twitch? The first swipe in the current bruhaha was from “moderates” against “progressives.” Progressives defended their position and when they did so, they were accused of attacks. Jayapal has been masterful in her responses. AOC stands shoulder to shoulder with people of color (duh) and made that point clear in her interview.
Some facts: Spanberger won her race by a larger margin than last time. Not ONE fucking Dem. candidate ever supported or ran on the platform of “Defund the Police.” Anyone who blames progressive House members for that Republican campaign smear is a tool.
The anti-POC and progressive propaganda has been catapulted by misinformation which so many Democrats ate with a spoon. (I include the not yet born out early poorly sourced now CW that Black men went for Trump, Wuh?) And so many are happy to repeat these things and be outraged! about things they only know third hand. Why does AOC trigger people here and elsewhere? She doesn’t seem to trigger the people in the community, especially the women of color I work with. See, Nicole Hannah-Jones and Jamelle Bouie for two examples of people who agree with her who I deeply respect. I can’t say why she gets such anger.
I recommend reading her interview. If a white guy talking head said everything she said, we would hail him as a great leader of our future. In fact, like so much women say, I am just waiting for a white guy to repeat all she said so everybody can say, “Fabulous analysis, Bob.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: Especially without the Senate, I’m skeptical of how much we’ll be able to get accountability of the last few years, but I really hope Biden puts in an aggressive AG who wants to clean house. People here have been advocating for Preet Bahrara at DoJ, I try not to do too much wish casting, but I think that if not AG, he would make a great Special IG (a position I just made up) for finding out all the fuckery. I doubt Barr left any fingerprints on illegal stuff, but I’m sure there are things he, and others, does not want the public to know, and I want us to know.
Kay
@Aleta:
Career justice department prosecutors who are concerned or random people on twitter who are not concerned. I don’t know about you but I’m going with the career prosecutors rather than the Trump appointees and pundit-lawyers on cable.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
The Republican lawyer who led Bush’s legal team during Bush v Gore has said there’s nothing to any of Trump’s legal bullshit and that it’s unlikely to succeed. I would think he would know, given his experience
Dan B
@H.E.Wolf: Yes we are on edge. We had a day of feeling great and then the dirty tricks started in earnest. The right wingers live for terrorizing every minority group and every “lib”. They can’t be reformed they must be kept out of power. I believe the Biden / Harris team knows how to do this.
Danielx
@Served:
What was I going to say? It slipped away, due no doubt to my age and declining intellect and memory.
Oh yeah, it went like this:
Fuck you. Fuck you twice.
I knew it would come to me.
ETA: sorry. I’m feeling pretty goddamned testy right now.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t get that far. Right now I just hope we can protect our voters and others from fake prosecutions on voter fraud. This idea that we’re relying on the high ethical standards of the US attorneys Donald Trump appointed concerns me greatly. I don’t suggest you rely on that.
The career people are really concerned or they would not be running to the NYTimes and sending emails to colleagues about how they are asking to be re-assigned because they refuse to go along with this witch hunt.
Immanentize
@WhatsMyNym: Jayapal has been all over the news. She’s been defending progressives (she is Vice Chair of the caucus) and saying just what AOC says — run the campaign you need to in your district, don’t tell others they are responsible for your wins or loses. That seems like the right message, no?
sanjeevs
Preet:
https://twitter.com/PreetBharara/status/1326002845779374081
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
All of the Trump lawyer court cases have gone nowhere. They’re too incompetent.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
This appears to be the important line to me. At this point, Barr has no credibility, so if he’s not going to shift the result of the election what he’s doing is disgusting and corrupt, but not actually scary.
Patricia Kayden
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Goku, would you listen to yourself? You’re saying if we have nothing to hide we have nothing to fear. That is not how prosecutions are supposed to work. I mean, I’m watching the standards for these people behavior and actions be reduced in real time. Now it’s that they are unlikely to get a conviction on their bogus claims of voter fraud?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: I read it. Which of her colleagues said, or even implied, that BLM was their enemy?
HumboldtBlue
@Immanentize:
Well said, there’s an energy to the young women of color working their way into the Democratic party that can only make the party more dynamic, progressive, and impactful.
It took me 15 comments to begin to express what you typed, but as my buddy once said, “you write as if you use an ice pick.”
I recommend reading her entire interview as well.
Immanentize
@sanjeevs: Good thread here by Asha Rangappa:
Kay
@Frankensteinbeck:
Well, no offense, but easy for you to say. You’re not the people federal prosecutors will be investigating hoping to drum up false allegations of voter fraud. By that point it sort of doesn’t matter if they succeed in the political prosecutions. The thing itself is a big problem.
HumboldtBlue
@Kay:
This seems like a real concern considering the Nevada lawsuit names two people — the wife active duty military, husband working on military project at UC Davis — in their lawsuit claiming some sort of fraud and that they can’t legally vote in Nevada while living in Davis, CA.
IANAL but it seems bugfuck crazy, but there you are.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What?
cain
Yep, that’s me. I’m older than John by a few months.
I will say that the older Dems know it is played but at the same time a number of other factors like social rules have been changing rapidly. Ten years ago, transgender issues was not on the docket. Now it is. Social change is becoming rapid and the system is being pressured to incorporate it quickly.
The older folks, the Trumpers are reacting to the rapid changes in predictable fashion.
I will welcome more of our progressive folks here and have a good debate – but one thing for sure – wild spread changes are hard to do in the system and that is by design. If you change the system for rapid change, it also means that folks like Trump and his ilk can do similar things.
Immanentize
@HumboldtBlue: It is crazy. The complaint is that they were transferred by the military and voted, but not there? I mean it is nutso.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize:
Kay
@Immanentize:
Sussing out Trump’s supposed motives is fine, I guess, but I’m just looking at actions. Why in God’s name would you ever trust Bill Barr or anyone Bill Barr hires, on anything?
Does it concern you that career prosecutors are worried? Trump’s various mental illnesses aside, I mean.
PJ
@Immanentize: Christ. Did you read the NYT interview? The one she gave on the afternoon the election was called for Biden and Harris? It was all about her. It was all about how she’s figured everything out and anyone who doesn’t listen to her is a fool:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/us/politics/aoc-biden-progressives.html?searchResultPosition=2
If a Democratic candidate loses, it’s because they didn’t accept Alexandria Ocasio-Cortes’ help, not because there was massive Republican turnout in Republican districts. “If only they had embraced Medicare for All, they would have won!!!”
Here’s the thing: AOC claims, “It’s going to be really hard after Detroit and Rashida Tlaib ran up the numbers in her district.” In fact, Rashida Tlaib won but got 17 percent fewer votes in Detroit than in 2018. Likewise, Ilhan Omar won and ran 15 points behind Biden in Minneapolis. The fact is, whether you ran on Medicare for All, like Justice Dem Kara Eastman, who lost and ran 15 points behind Biden in NE-2 (so much for AOC’s help), or didn’t, this was just a tough year for Democrats, and it had nothing to do with AOC.
But you know who did do well this year? Joe Fucking Biden, who did not pay attention to Twitter or the Internet at all.
Kay
@HumboldtBlue:
It’s more than that. They’re collecting affidavits from insane people who are alleging other people committed fraud. Bill Barr and the disgusting, corrupt hacks he hired are going to look into that and they made sure to set it up so they go around all the career people.
I don’t know what’s going to happen and maybe all this tea leaf reading and Kreminology is correct and Trump “motives” matter, or whatever Republicans are feeding to reporters about how this is all some kind of game matter, but I think I’m going with the career prosecutors. That’s what I’m doing.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That sounds like a heartfelt and true plea for unity. Why does that upset you? Have you never said in a dispute, “Look, I’m not your enemy?” That’s what I say when I want people to refocus on the real challenge.
Gentex
@pajaro:
This is a very good take that I desperately hope is correct.
TEL
Thank you John. I was thinking the same thing. We need to keep our eyes on what matters – GA senate races, covid response, obamacare and so much else. And what concrete actions we can do to help.
Immanentize
@Kay: Very much concerns me. A handful are my friends. They have shut down. They are acting paranoid or at least scared.
I think Asha’s point is to try and figure out where they are trying to go to figure out how to oppose them best. At least that is what I understood her to be arguing. Others have certainly pushed back on her call for calm
Dan B
@MisterForkbeard: AOC is young in several ways: experience in government, self awareness, and knowing when to speak. I remember how I was at 30. I try not to remember, as do my friends.
Peale
@cain: honestly, the olds are doing just fine with the change. 12 years ago, Obama lost the 65+ by 8 Ot’s, the only age cohort he lost. Biden lost them by 3. 12 years ago, when they were the 45-64 age group, Obama was +1 with them. They were evenly split. Over 12 years, the olds are shuffling towards being evenly split.
The biggest decline for the dems continues to be the millenials. 12 years ago, Obama won the 18-29s +35. 12 years on, Biden won the 30-44 group +7. That’s a tremendous decline over 12 years. That’s why I’m kind of mixed on the idea that these progressive gen Z voters are really going to be the progressive future. In 12 years are they really going to be in the same place?
frankly, I think 2020 is what 2008 would have looked like if the GOP had gone with someone besides McCain.
soapdish
I have a few dollars to burn, but I wonder if it’s best sent to GAsenate.com or if there is some other less obvious way the dollars could be better spent. If the overall thought is that this is a cromulent spread of the wealth I’m very cool with that, I’m just wondering if there’s a good target not on the radar that could use a bump as well. Is there going to be such a thing as “too much cash” with this election?
sdhays
LOL. The title of this post is “Keep Your Eyes on the Fuckers, but Ignore the Noise” and ends with “focus on Georgia”, and at least half the comments section is dissecting Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, even delving into some armchair psychoanalysis.
It must be Monday on Balloon Juice.
Immanentize
@PJ: Of course I read it. A few times. But I didn’t hate read it like you. I think she is mostly right. It is mostly an expression of frustration (as some have said here) that her Democratic colleagues are going to lose races, not because she has a progressive message and they don’t, but rather because they suck at modern campaigning. And that they better get with it soon. I agree.
You disagree?
different-church-lady
@Kay: If they are focused on individual instances, then they’re not counting on overturning the election using the courts; they’re trying to incite an uprising in the streets.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
by accusing anonymous people– anonymous because don’t exist– of treating Black Lives Matter as their ”enemy”? that’s how she builds unity?
Kay
@Immanentize:
It’s fine to call for calm – I don’t think anyone is saying run around screaming- but calling for “calm” is different than coming up with an alternate explanation for this that relies completely on reading their minds. I can’t read their minds. I have 1. their actions and 2. what the prosecutors who are speaking are saying. So we wait and we see what they do next.
Immanentize
@PJ: She is also saying that Biden is president because of Black and other minority voters. And it is not OK for moderates to claim the victory for themselves anymore or to suggest that their small number of losses (what are we at, 3 now?) Should be laid at the feet of their progressive colleagues and black activists. Do you disagree?
Immanentize
@Kay: I agree. Actions matter. I just don’t know whether these are disjointed bad actions, or a planned set of dangerous stuff. It is like Bahara’s tweet above. I’m pissed, not scared. Yet.
Kay
@different-church-lady:
We don’t know what they’re doing, but I think we would agree that “inciting an uprising in the streets” is an escalation of what we have seen so far. “Inciting uprisings” (if that is what they’re doing- I don’t know) is not an end goal. To what end would they do that?
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Immanentize: I’m very pissed, and it scares the snot out of me. When the career folks are weird – and I’ve heard from friends that they are – it’s time for real concern. Preet’s “stay tuned” is itself unnerving.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PJ: I like the part where she says the DCCC is “hemorrhaging” members to her movement. Three is a hemorrhage?
Also. the DCCC supported her fellow “squad” members. Nancy Pelosi’s PAC gave Omar $12K. If they didn’t support AOC, I would assume it was because she didn’t need it.
Baud
@Immanentize: I don’t want to engage in this debate, but as a factual matter, has any Dem done that besides Spanberger? I agree that Spanberger’s comments were off base.
VeniceRiley
This bit is not entirely wrong headed
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/11/9/1993339/-I-live-in-rural-northwest-Ohio-and-AOC-is-right
PJ
@Immanentize: I didn’t hate read it. But on a day when everyone was celebrating, AOC felt it important to point out that Democrats would have done better if only they had listened to her sage advice. I don’t personally know how any given candidate should campaign, but it’s pretty clear that most of our losses this year were not because “they suck at modern campaigning”. There was just massive support for Trump; he brought Republicans out of the woodwork.
And how would you know if someone lost because “they suck at modern campaigning” anyway? She calls out Conor Lamb for not spending shitloads of money on Facebook, but Conor Lamb won anyway.
AOC is a very online person and that certainly works for her – she’s raised a ton of money and has a higher profile than any congressperson besides Nancy Pelosi. That doesn’t mean raising and spending millions for online advertising will work or for everyone, or make any difference at all. Someone who was not online at all, Joe Biden, did better than almost every Democrat running this year.
gwangung
@Immanentize: I’m pretty sure it’s just a bunch of random shit flung at the wall to see what sticks. No well thought out plan.
But even shit can trigger something not planned for. I think wary watching and anticipating possible chain reactions (but not panicking) would be a good thing to do.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I read it as a response to a pretty direct attack by a “moderate” colleague who was yelling! and hectoring the caucus about how (supposed/imagined) progressive arguments “almost cost her her race.” They didn’t. It was a false narrative. It upset people who thought they were trying to be helpful. Can you try to read it in that light?
Immanentize
@gwangung: Yes and yes. Watchful and ready? Not panicking, but willing to get into the fray.
Kay
@Immanentize:
The truth is we can’t do much of anything. I guess I just don’t want this to become “anything they do short of overturning an election is fine”. If that’s the trigger for concern or attention to their actions we’ve already lost.
Because Republicans tell a reporter who covers Republicans that this is not about Biden’s election but is instead about a senate race in Georgia does not mean that is the truth. Their word isn’t worth much.
gwangung
@Immanentize: I pretty much agreed with AOC, but mentioned the votes of moderates mattered and I got roasted on Facebook. I mentioned progressives have historically gotten bupkis (hippie punching is a thing) and get roasted here.
I should learn to enjoy being well done.
Immanentize
@Kay: OK — how about this — I HOPE this is all about trying to move Trump to his next career and meanwhile they need to keep the base fired up in GA. But I don’t think that is the only possibility.
I think there are things I might do, but not yet because as you suggest, we are still winning by a LOT right now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t understand this sentence. Who thought they were being helpful to whom?
I haven’t seen a transcript of Spanberger’s comments, so this is the first I’ve heard she made a direct attack, in a private caucus meeting, on Black Lives Matter. I know she said Defund the Police. I don’t conflate the two, and I think doing so is a mistake.
sdhays
@karensky: I doubt they’re freaking out, but they obviously are aware of the stakes. The odds, for now, are still in their favor. Joe Biden seems to have won Georgia, yes. But without the runoff, Ossoff would have already lost to Perdue. And if you add up all the Republican votes in the weird special election, they also add up to more than the votes cast for Democrats.
The problem for them is, the runoff electorate is going to be different from the November electorate – we just don’t know how different. Typically, that would be in their favor, but with the taste of the Biden victory fresh and the Senate in the balance, Democrats might turnout in droves again. I suspect the biggest thing that is freaking McConnell and Barr out is the potential for Dump turning on Loeffler and Perdue as betraying him and costing him Georgia. Kemp too.
That’s a wildcard that could make some Dump supporters stay home. And if I were a Democratic strategist, I would be searching for ways to make that happen.
PJ
@Immanentize: Of course Black people carried the Democrats this year, as they do every election. Who do you think those moderate voters are, if not black people who show up to vote every election?
AOC is claiming something else, that it’s leftists (Justice Dems and DSA) like herself who won this for the Democrats. But the fact is it was a broad coalition from leftists to Never Trumpers who did it, and the heart of it was black people, as it always is.
Kay
So great that “flashy” investigations by corrupt prosecutors are now nothing to worry about. Nothing to worry about unless you’re the target of the corrupt prosecutor. I bet the postmaster they’re targeting is taking it pretty serious. And he/she should. Here’s hoping our political prosecutor who works for Donald Trump’s re-elect doesn’t find any victims to deliver to Dear Leader.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gwangung:
I genuinely don’t understand this. What were they supposed to get? and from whom? when?
Emma from FL
@Immanentize: Late answer, sorry. I am not angry at her and I support some of the things she supports. But her message is radioactive-level to a lot of working class Democrats so if she wants to implement it she needs to find ways of reaching them. And the road doesn’t go through the fucking NYT on that particular day.
Peale
@Kay: I’m guessing he’s going to turn his guns towards Stacy Abrams. Or any of the number of groups organizing in GA.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Brian Williams and John Heilemann talking about how Democrats need a non-white party chair who can talk to Hispanics and people who don’t shop at Whole Foods (BriWi’s latest cute hook). Somewhere, lifelong labor and voting rights activist Tom Perez, who was on MSNBC a couple of hours ago, just looks at the camera with that Jim Halpert blank stare. (edited)
ETA: they also say people are talking up Jamie Harrison. I’m guessing Stacey Abrams doesn’t want the job, I think she’s gonna take another run at GA gov?
Dan B
@WhatsMyNym: Pramila was our Rep and then the district was redrawn. Waaaah! Our Rep is actually great but Pramila is probably going places.
Pramila bought our friends house.
randy khan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
My personal view is that GOP office holders mostly are trying not to anger Trump because they think that Trumpists will still dominate the party for the next couple of years and none of them want to be primaried.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Has Whole Foods replaced latte-sipping or Volvo-driving?
When I think of Biden, I don’t think of Whole Foods.
2liberal
each state that GETS THEIR DELEGATION SEATED gets one vote
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Peale:
And what does he think he’s going to find?
patrick II
@PJ:
It’s an idea expressed by some very angry people after seeing one of their own strangled for eight minutes while begging hem to stop until he died.
Kay
Not to be a pain in the ass but since my memory is longer than 6 weeks- unlike Pete Williams, apparently, I recall Bill Barr initiated a federal inquiry into a wholly specious allegation involving 9 ballots in Pennsylvania immediately prior to the election.
But I’m glad everyone thinks this corrupt hack is a model of ethical behavior and will just follow the facts where they lead him. Because that’s the history, right? He’s very trustworthy and upright. We should trust him.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: CostCo?
PJ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Don’t you know, the Speaker of the House is just like Santa Claus, and even though progressives have been good boys and girls, they didn’t get any toys this year!
I feel like so many Americans have no idea how the legislative process works. You have to get people who agree with your policies elected; if you don’t get enough of them, your policies won’t be enacted. That’s it. It’s hard to do (look at this election), which is why a lot of people haven’t gotten bupkis.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Definitely.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
And I presume that went nowhere. I know this is terrible Kay, but there’s apparently very little we can do to stop these investigations, given an end run around the career DOJ has been done
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: See, I know things. I am smart.
Peale
@Goku (Amerikan Baka): who knows. Some Blind half senile elderly woman who forgot she voted by mail who voted twice by mistake and blames Stacy for stealing her second vote.
Kay
@Peale:
I think we have to defend our voters and various innocent election workers, postal workers and poll workers from Bill Barr’s bad faith, wholly political accusations that they violated federal law. Because it isn’t going to happen in Grosse Pointe. It’s going to happen in Detroit and Philadelphia.
It is wrong to stand by and allow Donald Trump’s thuggish legal team to target people and I don’t care if it’s done to assuage Trump’s ego or win a senate race or overthrow an election. They will need defending. We’re not done here. Not by a long shot. This fight just started.
PJ
@Baud: Biden shops at Janssen’s, a family owned supermarket near his home.
Barbara
@randy khan: Yes. Agreed.
Baud
@PJ: Sounds like him. I wouldn’t know about Janssen’s.
sdhays
I’ve been making a note not to write off the Alaska Senate race, but according to this article on TPM, it sure doesn’t sound likely:
Not a shock, but I was kind of hoping to keep that dream alive a bit longer.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
No. We think that it will go nowhere like it has dozens of times before.
Emma from FL
@Kay: Nobody is saying that he should be trusted. I am sure that all the very sharp lawyers working for Biden don’t. I am sure activists on the ground fighting back don’t. I am absolutely certain that the set of Juicers that trust him is a null set.
(added) I agree that we from Biden down need to come out swinging on behalf of any person accused by the mofos.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Who is saying that we shouldn’t fight whatever Barr comes up with?
Peale
@PJ: I’m thinking that he splurges for Classico and not Prego. Can we trust him?
HumboldtBlue
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Why on earth would she take the DNC chair? She seems gubernatorial and Senatorial material through and through.
(And why the hell is it goVernor but the adjective is guBernatorial?)
Peale
@Emma from FL: the problem is that Biden’s lawyers work for Biden, not the precinct poll worker who accidentally checked the wrong person as having voted. That poll worker then needs to lawyer up.
Kay
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
Goku, again, you seem like a nice person but you shouldn’t accept political prosecutions. The conviction is not the thing here. You can have higher standards than that. You must have higher standards than that. Just in the last three days I have watched “they’re not accepting the results and that’s fine”, then “they’re not allowing the transition team and classified briefings”- also fine. Now we’re authorizing political investigations into regular people in these places – ordinary voters and poll workers and postal clerks- and that is also fine.
It’s not fine.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@HumboldtBlue: Blame it on the French. Or Canada. Or Rio. Or the bossanova
I think the Dems/Schumer tried to get Abrams to run for Senate this cycle, and she said no.
Uncle Cosmo
Those 3 states, specifically, were won by Biden but have GOP-controlled legislatures. Two of them have GOP governors as well (AZ, GA). WI is a fourth possibility (GOP leg, Dem gov).
And they wouldn’t have to be “thrown out” – the legislature could either certify the slate of Trump electors, or fail to certify any electors at all, throwing the election to the House.
Emma from FL
@Peale: So you think they will look away from a situation like that? So we’re no better than Republicans?
TEL
One thing not getting brought up that really bothered me about AOC’s temper tantrum over the weekend is that she went on a multi-tweet rant about the Lincoln Project’s funding and how they should give all of their money to her as she would do a better job with it. 1. That money wasn’t given to her, she has no right to it, and why would she thing she’s entitled to it? There’s not a lot of crossover, I think, between AOC and the Lincoln Project’s immediate goals, or the people who donate to them. 2. There’s no evidence she did any better with her money than the Lincoln Project did.
I didn’t even give any money to the Lincoln Project – all of my donations went through Act Blue directly to candidates, so I didn’t have any stakes in it. But her entitlement was absolutely ridiculous. I’d always thought of her as smart and young – as a positive force. I’m unhappy that I’m now seeing her as entitled and ridiculous. Sigh. I hope I’m wrong about this, but I’m getting Bernie or Bust my-way-or-the-highway vibes about her.
cain
Are they really doing ok or has a number of those 65+ cohort left this world and a new 65+ cohort who were in their early 50s have replaced them? I mean I’m now 51, in 2008 I was in my late 30s.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
Ok, so what exactly are we supposed to do, then?
I’m not saying this is fine. But the people in positions of authority that can stop this or hamper this are on board evidently.
gwangung
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m old enough to remember Democrats turning rightward in the 90s. Rightly so, you need to win elections. But I never saw a course correction back to the left through the 00s and the 10s, with maybe a tiny correction 2016 and a bit more after 2018. But it can’t be denied that the party is still rightward of where it was previous to the 90s, while the population has drifted leftward. And what was being defended has been done in rather meek, milquetoast terms.
This has left BIPOC communities twisting in the wind, with black and indigenous people taking the brunt of that. The meek response to Standing Rock, the somewhat tepid defense of BLM, the persistent poverty of Native and Black communities rankles BIPOC communities and much of the progressive community. White resentment has prevented a lot of needed aid to those communities (where even the more privileged communities of color have large, gaping wholes that could be ameliorated). And the timidity of moderates to combat that is something that rankles.
Baud
@Uncle Cosmo: It’s the governor or SoS that certifies the electors.
cain
But black voters are not progressive voters. So they aren’t going to be jumping in on M4A or any of that. They have a host of other issues that they want accomplished.
As far as I’m concerned, the Biden administration’s first priority is to black voters.
HumboldtBlue
@Peale:
PJ
@patrick II: The abolition movement has been around since before this year.
I’ll just leave this here: https://www.newsweek.com/81-black-americans-dont-want-less-police-presence-despite-protestssome-want-more-cops-poll-1523093
Emma from FL
@Uncle Cosmo: The house is majority democratic. that would be a majorly boneheaded self-own.
randy khan
@trnc:
In theory, the strategy would be to prevent enough states from certifying that Biden no longer would have a majority of the EVs cast (which necessarily would mean that Trump would have a majority). The Constitution doesn’t require half+1 of the potential votes, just of the electors actually appointed.
The problem with that strategy is that it would be really hard to get Biden from 306 EVs down to 233 (assuming NC doesn’t end up in Biden’s column). Pennsylvania plus Georgia plus Wisconsin plus Arizona plus Nevada is 63 votes and you’d need 10 more.
I think the notional solution to that is to say that the legislatures could step in and name electors, but among other problems many of those states are out of session right now and in some of them (Pennsylvania in particular) the legislature doesn’t have the power to call itself into session. Not to mention that Nevada is controlled by the Dems.
Baud
@gwangung:
I can deny it.
PJ
@Peale: Well, Janssen’s is kind of a gourmet store. We’d better check his cupboards, and find out what kind of countertops he has at the same time.
Baud
@randy khan:
The other problem is that people would kill them.
NoraLenderbee
@HumboldtBlue: Both come from Latin gubernator, a steersman. “Governor” went through a French phase before it came into English.
cain
@Baud:
Jokes on them, Whole Foods CEO (before bought my Amazon) is a conservative.
Baud
@NoraLenderbee:
We NEED to go back to that word.
Kay
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
Just don’t minimize what they’re doing:
This is the absolute bullshit these wildly powerful prosecutors are getting from the fucking lunatics. This is a witch hunt. The people on this list are real. All they did was vote. They really, really don’t deserve this. Have you seen the affidavit Bill Barr found credible? It was submitted by a crazy person but even if it wasn’t the affidavit doesn’t even allege a crime. Witch. Hunt.
Peale
@cain: yes. That’s what I’m saying. The voting patterns of the olds now look very similar to the middle aged cohort from 12 years prior. The biggest shift to the right over the past 12 years has been in the younger voters. We used to complain about them in 2010 and 2014 for staying home so that Obama and the dems would lose momentum. I think the ones who were staying home then were actually the conservative ones.
Kay
@Goku (Amerikan Baka):
The President of the United States tweeted a “list” of 14,000 ordinary people in Michigan and accused them of a crime. The list was compiled by his insane cultists. This is the quality of the “evidence” here.
I guess we’re lucky we live in Ohio because these thugs won’t be targeting us.
TallTom
I don’t have a problem with AOC, if her comments help to move the Overton window. When she pushes for Medicare for All, we end up with a President Elect that supports a Public Option. During the Obama administration, that was not the plan for the ACA.
HumboldtBlue
@NoraLenderbee:
That makes sense.
@Baud:
That’s what we called Arnie.
artem1s
@sdhays:
I suspect you are right and Mitch and Barr are doing their best to keep the WH in play not only to keep Trump from refusing to help with an election where he is not on the ballot but also one where he has no stake in the outcome. If he’s not going to win another four years why would he care what happens in the Senate? I honestly think their chances are slim to none and he’s likely to be so distracted by Biden’s win that he will do nothing but rage tweet from now until January. But they don’t really have many options when it comes to getting that flaming orange narcissist to focus on something other than himself. I wouldn’t be surprised if McConnell threatens to withhold access to GOP mailing lists that Trump needs to grift his way out of debt.
SFAW
@Emma from FL:
Not how it works. Each state’s House delegation gets one vote. There are currently (I think) 26 or more majority-Republican House delegations. Reasonable to assume the majority-Rethug delegations would vote for Trump.
gwangung
@cain: I think we have agreement on that.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Peale:
Any theory on why that’s happening (young voters being more conservative)?
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@SFAW:
They do that, they set the country on fire and sign their own death warrants
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@TallTom:
my god
PJ
@TallTom: There was a public option in the ACA originally, but Max Baucus (D-MT) killed it.
Zzyzx
Seeing how the latest Republican lawsuit is to literally declare all absentee ballots in PA to be retroactively unconstitutional, I’m not too worried about them having success. If that case wins, then we were doomed from the beginning.
Goku (Amerikan Baka)
@Uncle Cosmo:
Blatantly illegal. The laws on the books state that only the electors of the winner of the pop vote in those states can be appointed. The Democratic House could simply refuse to certify the election until the correct electors are certified
TallTom
@PJ: My mistake. I apologize.
Zzyzx
@Goku (Amerikan Baka): and there’s a federal law that says that you can’t retroactively decide the election rules.
This really is the 25th amendment of the right.
TallTom
@PJ: My mistake. I apologize.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gwangung: well, there’s a lot there, some of which I don’t know enough to argue about (Standing Rock, for example). I’m still hung up on “progressives got bupkis”. The ACA, among other things, brought health coverage to more than 20 million people through MedicAid expansion alone. Some people called it one of the largest transfers of wealth from rich to poor since the Great Society– I don’t have those numbers and don’t know exactly what that’s based on. The ARRA, besides the whole saving the economy thing, jumpstarted the renewable energy industry. We negotiated the Paris Climate Accords and the JPCOA– maybe not specifically progressive, but I thought a good thing. From 2009 to 2015, we went from “Don’t ask, don’t tell” to Obergefell, a lesson in why, maybe, a few self-styled progressives should have allowed themselves to be blackmailed about the Supreme Court. The Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act was seen as a very signifcant achievement. You can say Dodd-Frank was no big deal, but it bothered Wall St enough for Mitt Romney to make its repeal one of the biggest planks in his campaign. The CPFB was a big enough deal to make Elizabeth Warren a national political figure. A lot more things Obama couldn’t get done because the electorate that you say drifted left as the Democrats drifted right put the Tea Party, effectively, in charge of Congress, then six years later they put a racist in the White House because he was a businessman, and a racist, with more than a bit of help from “progressives” who were upset about Wall Street speeches and TPP. Remember TPP? I’d bet a large amount of money most of the youths energetically waving those signs in Philadelphia in 2016 don’t.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PJ: the PO died like Cesar, lots of Senators had knives
IIRC, Baucus’s own plan in early ’09, before he decided his friendship with Chuck “They’ll pull the plug on Grandma!” Grassley was more important than passing a bill, had a fairly robust public option
Chetan Murthy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Et tu, Holy Joe?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Chetan Murthy: Yon Blanche LIncoln had a lean and hungry look
Chetan Murthy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Blanche Lincoln? Who’s that? A Slovenian philosopher?
topclimber
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: In perhaps closing this thread, let me say that you are quite eloquent when talking about things in a positive way, such as the accomplishments of the Obama coalition. Not so much when you go negative.
Also, perhaps I missed it among the 30 or so comments you have had on this post, I don’t think you understood Gwangung’s point about progressives getting bupkis. I think he was referring to leadership positions in the House. Nancy actually made some moves in the vein in 2018. She should make some more.
As to the public option, my memory is that in the final push for Obama Care, after the illusion of bipartisanship had faded, all Dem Senators but one were on board with a public option mostly because the left wing pushed it HARD. That holdout was good old Joe Lieberman.
gwangung
Yes, the relative lack of leadership for progressives is a big point. A lot of this is that there are a lot of moderate voters in the Democratic Party (which I have to point out to progressives). But the Progressive Caucus is fairly sizable and I don’t think leadership quite represents it, particularly given the influence of corporatism on the party.
I think the ACA is really not a good example of a progressive win, given the disappearing public option.
And the list of supposed progressive wins is kinda white-centric, ignoring the specific problems of communities of color. Rising tides are nice, but some boats actually need specific help they’re not getting.
Marcopolo
@TEL: Yep, you’re wrong about this. What AOC said was based on election returns it sure looks like the strategy of LP, which hoovered up a lot of money, did not work. First, there doesn’t seem to have been an appreciable movement of R voters to voting for Ds. Second, all the Senate candidates the targeted, aside from McSally & Gardner were re-elected.
Nor did she say they should give their money to her. She said they should give their money to groups whose work, based on the election results, actually moved votes. I’d imagine that would include orgs like Wisconsin Dems or Fair Fight 2020. I have no problem with those comments per se, except this is the real world & I’d bet the LP folks made some serious bank on that money & and it’s a bit naive to think they’d want to part with it.
Over the past couple months I posted repeated comments that I did not think the LP ads actually moved any voters, that they were actually more performative than useful & that their actual audience was the typical BJ commenter not wavering R. It’s the age old human tendency to like things that reinforce your own beliefs.
Anyways, heading into the GA runoffs I hope everyone here realizes that the average Georgian is absolutely sick & tired of campaign ads and that if the want to give financial support to help win those races it should go to the groups doing the organizing on the ground to GoTV. I’ve been happy with the comments/recent posts I’ve seen so far that this seems to be the case.
Going forward I also hope everyone here now understands that organizing to contact, persuade, & mobilize voters to support our candidates & policies is an ongoing process that needs to happen year-round & that finding a few good organizations & setting up monthly supporting contributions ( which I’ve now been doing w/ 10 groups over the past couple years) is the best way to do that.
Over
Brachiator
@gwangung:
The ACA was certainly a win for millions of Americans. That should be the standard by which it is judged, not whether it made progressives happy.
The central weakness of Bernie Sanders, the darling of progressives, was that his agenda largely ignored people of color and assumed that his vague “do it like Europe” progressive agenda would be a rising tide that lifted all boats.
Uncle Cosmo
That is immaterial.
To clear up your misconception, please read the US Constitution, ArtIcle II, Section 1, and the Twelfth Amendment.
If the election goes to the House, the Presidency is awarded by vote of a majority of the states – with each state having one vote. (Yeah, it’s even worse than the Electoral College.)
The GOP controls a majority of House delegations (27 of 50 when last I looked). A quorum for these purposes consists of at least one Representative from at least 2/3 of the states, and there are GOP members from well over the number required (including my home state of MD, where 7 of the 8 Reps are Democrats but there’s that fucking idiot high-on-his-own-supply Thug anesthesiologist Andy Harris from MD-01). So the Democrats could not derail the process by refusing to participate.
It would not surprise me if such a misunderstanding is fairly common among the readers of this blog – it’s an obscure and arcane subject, last seriously examined in the context of the 1968 Presidential election (in, e.g.. Theodore G. Venetoulis, The House Shall Choose [1968]).
O. Felix Culpa
@Immanentize: Actually yes, I disagree. I read the article and agreed with some points, but found some of her comments deeply offensive. I speak as a person who has lived in deeply red areas and who works in the nitty gritty of on-the-ground political organizing. Among other things, she criticized people for not canvassing – in the fucking middle of a fucking pandemic! What a tool. Sorry, I think she can be brilliant at times, but she was way off base here.
I could write more about how some of her words were a misrepresentation and an insult to Democratic candidates and organizers in not-deep-blue areas, but I’m trying to practice a certain level of zenitude and enjoy our hard-earned victory. I suspect that’s part of the reason people are so upset: I wish Spanberger had kept her frustrations quiet a little longer and the same for AOC. Why shit so soon on people’s joy?
ETA: If AOC’s article was in response to Spanberger’s ill-advised rant, then shame on her. Spanberger spoke in the context of a caucus meeting. She may or may not have know that her remarks would be made public. If AOC had a problem with what Spanberger said, then how about addressing it with Spanberger herself, instead of running to the NYT? This public triangulation was shameful and destructive.
Elizabelle
@O. Felix Culpa: Thank you.
AOC represents a district so blue that the congresscritter is selected in the primary. Other candidates have tougher districts, some of them R-designed, and do not have the luxury AOC seems not to realize she enjoys.
Miss Bianca
@Immanentize: I dunno, “I begged them to let me help and they just wouldn’t LET me” sounds more like petulant egotism to me than a genuine offer of help. YMMV
We disagree about AOC. I think she’s very media-savvy and a lot of times I like what she has to say. On the other hand, I do sometimes doubt that she’s actually more interested in getting progressive shit done – or taking care of her constituents with good service – than being in the public eye as the Face of Young Progressive America.
Like with Bernie Sanders, I think there’s reason to suspect that she’s more into her brand than her actual job.
ETA: Maybe I’m just smarting because I can’t stand “progressives” in my own state party who insist on airing dirty Dem laundry in public. Comments I made in a supposedly confidential forum – taking people to task for not showing party unity, ironically enough – got leaked by one of these shitheads to the Denver Post. Which led to a “DEMS IN DISARRAY” front-page article, which helped NOBODY and NOTHING except that goddamn reporter’s and his editor’s egos.
Which is also why I ended up resigning as a county party official, because I really don’t need that kind of publicity in my community, with my job. Kind of like whatever helpful soul leaked Spanberger’s comments. Why would you do that unless you’re trying to stir shit up – and not in a useful way?
chopper
@MisterForkbeard:
i’m hoping pelosi called both of them and told them both to knock it the fuck off, and why the hell are you doing this shit in public, etc etc.
O. Felix Culpa
@Miss Bianca: Yes.
@chopper: And yes.
taumaturgo
@jl: For your own well being, please lower your expectations.
chopper
@PJ:
it does seem odd, like she’s talking out of both sides of her mouth here. on one hand, people in swing districts didn’t want her help which apparently was a huge mistake. on the other hand, we should assume people know their district and not tell them how to run elections there.
bluefish
Real late to the convo. Cuz exhausted. In the suburban sub. Gave more than I should have thru ActBlu yesterday morning. Should have meaning more than was wise. For real on Georgia. Where the money went thru my card. Go, Cole.