Just stumbled across this tweet, on my virtual rambles:
Saturday at 10pmET, you can watch HBO’s “After Truth” documentary on CNN!
Read more about the lessons from the film and the costs of disinformation in America in my intv with filmmakers @a_rossi & @NotTheATVRider
(From executive producer @brianstelter)https://t.co/d7Ae3igg4f
— Molly McKew (@MollyMcKew) August 29, 2020
And here’s another angle, from the ever-excellent Margaret Sullivan, who was fired by the NYTimes for doing her job well:
Fact-checking Trump’s lies is essential. It’s also increasingly fruitless. (And yes, @ddale8 and @GlennKesslerWP are excellent) My column https://t.co/FMWt1HjB8m
— Margaret Sullivan (@Sulliview) August 29, 2020
More and more, it seems to me like we don’t keep fighting the lies and the bullshit for others — we do it for our own self-respect.
We may not be able to keep the GOP death cultists from luring the (sometimes willingly) ignorant or innocent into the dumpster fire, but it’s important that we make the effort.
Omnes Omnibus
Did we not long ago reach the point where it is presumed absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary that EVERY FUCKING THING HE SAYS IS A LIE? I thought we had.
satby
I know there’s a lot of FaceBook haters here, but that’s where I do most of my IRL fact checking and debunking of right wing b.s. I know I don’t make a dent in the true believers, but there’s a silent audience of friends who can read the exchanges and I can make a difference there sometimes.
And sorry to go off topic, but our rescue was contacted by South Bend animal control to try to save a four week old kitten that had been found by a landscaper’s team. It had been tortured and buried alive, but has had surgery and is so far holding his own. If you can spare a bit, he’s going to need ongoing rehab as well as us paying for his surgeries. Link is here, but warning, the photos are a bit graphic for the squeamish.
satby
@Omnes Omnibus: WE know that, but a lot of disengaged types still don’t realize that. And the firehose of bullshit just confuses even people who don’t like the traitor.
Edit: Because as Downpuppy points out, the media still does’t call out the lies, in fact they help spread them.
Downpuppy
The basic model of reporting is to have some dim young AP stringers write up a Trump event like a boxing match. “Trump strongly attacked” – this makes the reader dumber. Why do this?
Just link the transcript & throw in selections of actual quotes along with explanations of why they’re utter bull.
Time to utterly trash the old model.
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: +1
A big part of Donnie’s success with his lies is having the press repeat them. I don’t know the solution, but having 80% of news reports every . single . day being repeats of the stupid lies that come from him and his administration doesn’t help educate or inform the public. I’m so old that I remember days going by where there was hardly any news in the press from the Obama Administration…
Dunno if I fully agree with Drum’s point, but it’s worth thinking about – https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/08/fact-of-the-day-manufacturing-as-a-of-the-workforce-1985-2020/
Foster Friess and Todd Akin would like a word…
Facts of the Day are an excellent idea.
Cheers,
Scott.
piratedan
@Omnes Omnibus: it is as far as I am concerned, but with the framing that is presented with every fucking thing that drops out of his pie-hole being taken seriously “by those that matter” because they’re the primary delivery system for how people stay informed, many of us feel compelled to man the informational barricades.
for some reason the daily lying about damn near everything and the comprehensive list of falsehoods makes me think that until Trump starts shooting journos on the streets this won’t make a difference and may not even make a difference until those folks are themselves stripped naked on the hood of a F150 being forced to deal with the wrath of those who don’t get college football this year.
their bubble has yet to be pierced, so they’re happy to just sit back and “take notes” and “keep score”.
NotMax
Gonna drop this here as Sunday’s morning thread is dedicated to the garden rather than general interest as it is the rest of the week and I was snoozing away by the time this morning’s popped up and then had already become moribund. Visual media miscellany:
1) Tried after watching the three-part Eullenia on Prime to pin down what the makers wanted to convey and still unable to settle satisfactorily on firm footing for a result but whatever it may be it is powerfully presented, if unevenly paced at times. Announced that a further three parts’ production has been virus delayed; frankly, found the cliffhanger ending suitable and effective even if the rest never sees the light of day.
2) Netflix notes:
Young Wallander arrives Sept. 3rd. From the trailer, emphasis on young. High hopes for this puppy. Lead actor has some mighty big shoes to fill.
Away (Sept. 4th) looks to contain potential but on the fence about it from the leisurely segments showcased in the trailer.
For The Good Place fans, season 4 shows up on Sept. 26th.
Brooklyn Dodger
@satby: Donated – thanks for posting!
Kay
Our (tiny) local newspaper has a section of “debunkings” – I don’t know if it’s something they buy and insert or if they’re putting it together themselves.
There were six in this this week’s wrap up. This was one of them:
Then a pix of the post with the photos.
I don’t know if it helps but I give them credit for trying.
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Since back in the 90s.
satby
@Brooklyn Dodger: Thank you so much!
MC
@satby: I donated. Live and thrive, Sammy. Fuck the haters.
satby
@MC: Appreciate the help.
The tortured ones are the worst, and this one has really broken me.
Holy shit, thanks again to all who donate! we’re almost to the goal in 10 minutes! Jackals are the best.
TS (the original)
I just read that trump is going to Wisconsin. In the midst of a pandemic where he has done nothing to help in combating or recovery – he is traveling the country to stir up hatred & resentment. And still the media follows him around & says he has a message to impart.
And then they criticize Biden because he believes in covid-safe campaigning. No-one is ever going to call out this imbecile for the evil that he does.
WaterGirl
@satby: Is there a link to donate where we don’t have to see photos?
What the fuck is wrong with these people?
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Another Scott: Drum is wrong. If a Dem says something incorrect (intentionally or accidentally) they are hammered. Meanwhile, the press is uncomfortable going after republicans because they’ll lose access or they’ll be accused of bias. Thus they receive a free pass.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: The main photo just shows a little black kitten in a towel. I didn’t scroll down and didn’t see any more.
Donated.
Thanks for letting us know, satby. Best of luck to the wee beastie.
Best wishes,
Scott.
joel hanes
@Downpuppy:
Serious journalists are trying to get their colleagues to use the “truth sandwich” model, but editors and publishers have no interest.
CapnMubbers
@satby: Thanks for the warning about graphic pictures; I squinted my way past them to the donation button. Comfort and healing to the kitten, gratitude to the caretakers.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
You can always disable images in your browser.
MC
@satby: I’m heartened to see him hungry post surgery. Always a very good sign.
WaterGirl
The Washington Monthly has an article up saying that Trump got a bounce from the RNC convention and that Biden lost ground. I have no idea whether that will turn out to be true or not. But that’s discouraging.
satby
@WaterGirl: The bad ones are below the fold, and Becky kept them a bit blurry. The donate button is right under his banner picture, that’s only his face.
Serial killers start with animal torture. So we’ve got that to look forward to, I guess. 2020 blows.
Kim Walker
I’m wondering if the fact-checking is not really helpful. This is the chaos part of Trump’s strategy. It’s overwhelming by design. Would it be more effective to talk about what he admits: obstructing the vote by trashing USPS; ending Social Security retirement and disability benefits within the next two years by eliminating FICA and SECA withholding. These things really matter to people, even some Republicans. He comes right out and says what horrible things he’s planning to do. They are fighting words – these may be a better focus.
satby
@Another Scott: Thanks Scott.
@CapnMubbers: And to you!
@MC: Yeah, we’re pretty hopeful. The impalement damage wasn’t as catastrophic as it could have been.
WaterGirl
@satby: donated.
WaterGirl
@satby: So much evil. I am so tired of the evil. Fuckers.
Redshift
Part of the purpose of the authoritarian/Fox/Trump firehose of bullshit is to exhaust people into giving up on the idea that they can find out the truth. So from that perspective, I think staying pissed off about the lies and pointing out the truth for whoever may hear it is a good way to help everyone fight that.
For news outlets, fact checking outside the original reporting is BS. It may have been useful in the time of occasional exaggerations, but it’s worse that useless against people who won’t be shamed by it.
satby
@WaterGirl: It’s the extra evil has been unleashed in the last four years. Cruelty as a sport. and Thanks!
Mary G
@satby: Donated a mite. Sorry it’s not more. Encourage anyone who can afford it to add in even if the goal has been reached. I’m sure satby’s rescue can use extra money on other deserving kittehs.
WaterGirl
@satby: Yep. but there had to have been a lot of rot to begin with, for all of this to take hold so quickly.
God help us if Trump wins again. (And even if he doesn’t.)
WaterGirl
@Mary G: Plus it looks like that was just for the emergency surgery. I imagine there will be tons of vet bills beyond that.
WaterGirl
This is depressing. I’m going to bed. Goodnight, all.
satby
@Mary G: Aww, thank! Every bit helps. I can’t even chip in until Monday myself.
Crashman06
@WaterGirl: Saw Silver and some of
the other pollster guys talking about this on Twitter this afternoon. One of the polls showed a slight uptick for T but not by a whole lot. A different poll showed no movement. The consensus was: too early to judge much; wait a few more days and get a few more datapoints. Don’t get discouraged!
evodevo
@satby: And somewhere out there is a budding serial killer…animal torture is usually a reliable behavioral indicator…
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@WaterGirl: On August 10, Morning Consult had Biden up by 8 (51-43) and today they had him up by 6 (50-44). When you take into account the margin of error and the minuscule change (43 to 44), there’s no change.
Certainly, an incumbent stuck at 44% is not where anyone would want to be.
Crashman06
@WaterGirl: What@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: said. I thought I saw something about a USC tracking poll that looked bad for T today too.
Steeplejack
@Kay:
Maybe it will reach people who aren’t “heavily on line.”
Luciamia
@WaterGirl: for heavens sake. Every party gets a bounce right after their convvention. It doesn’t last a week.
Bruuuuce
The Trump campaigns and regime are the reductio ad absurdum of the original statement about “the reality-based community.” Or merely proof that the right wing lives in Bizarroworld. Or, you know, both
dmsilev
@Crashman06:
USC Tracking poll It’s important to note that their methodology is different than most polling companies. They use a panel method, where they call the same group of people over and over again and track changes in opinion within that group, whereas most polling outfits generate a new random sampling each time. Which is better, I can’t say, but just be aware that they’re different.
Bruuuuce
This passed my eyes today, and after failing to spork them out, I realized it is a great opportunity for us to disemploy two virulent lying entitled racists: McConnell campaign hires Covington Kd
Crashman06
@dmsilev: Oh, totally. I get the USC poll is weird. But weren’t they right four years ago? They consistently showed T in the lead back then didn’t they?
satby
Just had a comment to @evodevo: vanish. Agree, and no words really. Such overwhelming cruelty.
But if little 4 week old Sammy can fight back to save himself, we can fight back to save the country. He’s my new spirit animal.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Crashman06: Yes. In the USC poll, he moved from 40% to 41%. He remained stuck in place in the Yougov poll at 41%. And we mentioned the Morning Consult results above.
More telling, he sunk 5 points since the convention began (51% on Monday to 46% on Friday) in GOP propaganda pollster Rasmussen.
Low 40s is no-man’s land.
Bill Arnold
@Another Scott:
It’s a bit of work (lazy journalists will be lazy) but I think it’s safe to report Trump’s lies if they’re prepared as a Truth Sandwich –
Truth
Trump said (false thing) X
Truth
ETA joel hanes said this too
satby
I need to call it a night, but thanks again everyone for your generousity. It really makes a difference.
Haroldo
@satby:
Donated
Omnes Omnibus
The big thing on polls is that Biden is consistently above 50%. That is supposed to be a strong positive indicator.
Uncle Cosmo
The Thugs used to sneer that Bill Clinton “never told the truth when a lie would do” – & we all know that every accusation that ever came out of their collective pie-hole is a confession.
satby
@Haroldo: hadn’t shut down yet, so thanks so much!
WaterGirl
@Luciamia: I brushed my teeth and am ready for bed, but I came back for one last look at BJ.
Not happy to hear that Trump got a bump and we got a negative bump.
What’s depressing is that there are people out there who are torturing cats. I literally feel sick about that.
‘Night.
mrmoshpotato
OT – dance to the music and watch this Aussie suss out Hungry Jaws’ fish and chips.
Patricia Kayden
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
You are correct, but. I think there is an assumption that in his ramblings he’d have to tell the truth once in a while, just out of chance. But of course lying is the only thing he’s good at and at which he practices on a minute by minute basis. Second, he’s surrounded himself with sycophants who are also so out of touch with reality that their contact with reality is almost as suspect as his. So what it’s come down to is that I doubt you could beat the truth out of any of them with a nice new baseball bat.
Patricia Kayden
Another Scott
@Bill Arnold: I don’t think making a sandwich of it is enough.
https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/publications/reports/white-papers/truth-telling-in-a-time-of-misinformation-and-polarization/
Too much reporting is one or two sentences and then moving on to something else. Spending any of that time on repeating lies is not going to be able to be countered effectively.
A Drum Daily Fact, or Kim Walker’s point above that simply reporting the actuality of his norm-breaking actions and announcements, is a better approach.
Continued Bothsiderizing is going to be the death of the Republic.
Cheers,
Scott.
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
Night. ??
aliasofwestgate
Yeah, Lord Dampnut is on his way to Kenosha, WI on tuesday. Roomie and i plan to stay far away. We’re close enough to where he might hold one of his ‘rallies’ to know the traffic’s gonna be horrible. Much less the whole super spreader event thing. Tempting as it is to try to go and spam it with annoying music or something. but ah well. I know i don’t have the spoons to do it (yay endometriosis chronic pain), and the town is already plenty on their feet and making their point peacefully the last few nights. Curfew goes for one more night, the 30th and if all goes well no more of that.
I was annoyed that the local cops were asswipes about Riot Barbecue who feeds protestors, not incite shit. Ugh. The protestors will be out in force to make some noise when Dampnut is here, and i need to pick somewhere to donate a bit locally in support.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I hope this is true. And my thoughts are not only about myself and fellow mask-wearers….
Chetan Murthy
@aliasofwestgate: If you find a few local ones, maybe post about ’em here, and some of faraway folk could join you in doing so?
Jeffro
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
He’s sunk, he knows it, and I’d rather be us than them (for any number of reasons). Let’s fight hard, peeps!
aliasofwestgate
@Chetan Murthy: I’ll see what i can dig up. I can tell everyone that it was surreal af seeing the flames a few blocks in teh distance monday night. We didn’t sleep too well that night or the next. The next day, protestors started tackling and stopping all the assholes outright. Then the little shit shot people and got away with it. I remain furious about that. Glad he’s been charged and has outright proof it was done.
Kay
@Jeffro:
I’m sorry he got a bump at all but – 6 is not a great high point! It’s just not.
He was particularly nasty and corrupt too, today, so the 6 hours they were forced to pretend they are decent people must have really taken it out of them. Now they have to be nastier, to make up.
aliasofwestgate
Okay: First finds. At least the immediate ones:
Milwaukee Freedom Fund (who is doing some localized bailing out of local protestors )
Jacob Blake’s Family GoFundMe
Not being a native, i’m not sure about the more local stuff but i’ll ask roomie or neighbors if there’s anything else they might have an idea about organization wise.
Kay
The ridiculous “undecideds” seem to have made up their minds, so that’s good that we don’t have to wait on those morons anymore.
Also- that’s a good generic ballot number. BTW.
Another Scott
@Kay: Relatedly, …
OMG!!!11
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/514174-poll-trump-approval-rises-among-black-hispanic-voters
<blockquote>President Trump‘s support among black voters rose 9 percentage points amid the Republican National Convention, a new Hill-HarrisX poll finds.
Twenty-four percent of registered black voters in the Aug. 22-25 survey, which included the first two days of the convention, said they approve of the job Trump is doing as president, while 76 percent said they disapprove.
That is up 9 points from the previous survey conducted Aug. 8-11, where the President received 15 percent support among this group.
The survey found support among Hispanic voters also grew by 2 percentage points, from 30 percent in the last poll to 32 percent in this most recent survey.</blockquote>
Biden’s DOOOMMMMMEEEEEDDDDD!!!11ONE
Seriously, 1) this is a Harris poll done online. IIRC, Harris isn’t exactly known for doing good polling. 2) having less than 1/3 of a group support him isn’t something to trumpet.
There are going to be lots of polls. We (everyone) shouldn’t panic about them.
Cheers,
Scott.
Benw
Thanks Satby I put a few $ down.
WRT Trump/Republicans, my experience is that overcoming serial liars and gaslighters is an exhausting effort because they will never quit and turn every tiny mistake and slip against you. Got to keep fighting
With that happy thought, I just finished rewatching Black Panther and it is inspiring. I’m still upset we’ve lost Chadwick Boseman, RIP
Kay
@Another Scott:
The comeback narrative will be horrendous though and Democrats will be despondent for …4 days or whatever. Less for me. Shallow and easily distracted.
Nothing to do but keep on keeping on. My middle son is here and he was just reading over my shoulder “you guys didn’t know it would be close?” – I’m going to strangle him :)
Kay
@Another Scott:
The Hill sort of buried this part:
Oh, they’ll be horrible. with this. But we knew that.
Kent
@Another Scott: Approval doesn’t mean they are going to vote for him. Just because some Black Americans approve of seeing Black faces at the RNC convention doesn’t mean Trump is getting their vote come November. It’s not even the same question.
Jeffro
@Kay: He & his corrupt crew keep looking for something to boost their numbers…any perceived PR win, any amount of “riot” footage, random tax breaks, Ivanka pretending his tweets are just oh a little rough…none of it is working.
It really is unbelievable! It’s like, “you fucking orange MORON…if you had just turned the pandemic response over to the experts instead of worrying about ‘spooking’ the stock market…and then later if you’d ignored Jared’s advice about sticking it to the blue states…you’d be coasting to a 2nd term right now!”
Just focus on the pandemic, Biden/Harris. 180k dead, 100k small businesses destroyed, our preK-12 schools and higher ed are a complete mess, sports are a complete mess, and we will keep limping along until a. national. plan. comes together, ie, until trumpov is gone.
sanjeevs
Labour have now drawn level with the Conservatives in U.K. polling – the Conservatives had a 26 point lead in March.
Coronavirus is what’s caused the collapse, in spite of the Tories using the GOP media and social media strategy.
Biden should be laser focussed on Coronavirus for the next 2 months in my opinion. Trump is defenceless, hence the desperate moves to talk about riots
TomatoQueen
Merlinus Ambrosius sends black kitty magic healing to Sammy along with donation. Get well soon little one.
Kay
@Kent:
What’s weird is his net approval is down in that poll. So he lost some white Republicans?
Jeffro
@Kay: Important part is…it was 46, almost 47% that got him elected last time. He’s lost a bunch and fired up a few new true believers. It won’t be enough.
Start firing on all cylinders now for the Nov 4 fallout, Biden/Harris. trumpov IS going to contest the election results. Make him say NOW what the standard will be, how he will produce his ‘proof’, or if it’s even possible that he could lose. Let him babble about it from now through 11/4 and look like the deranged, terrified loser he is.
Seriously. Prep the nation – the current president* has no intention of accepting anything other than winning, so hold him to some sort of proof here.
Jeffro
Totally agree. 180k dead. 100k small businesses lost. preK-12 and higher ed all screwed up. Almost no sports going on. Can’t travel outside the U.S. Seniors still locked away from their grandchildren. No concerts, etc etc. NOT NORMAL. Evidence of complete failure here.
Kay
@Jeffro:
My personal opinion is they’re not pricing in the layoffs – they’re ignoring unemployment in the same way they ignored Covid and it’s too late to fix it. They won’t get the same boost from the second stimulus as they did the first because businesses have now had time to assess the damage. They might have if they had moved more quickly but in addition to being corrupt liars they’re also incredibly lazy, so they didn’t do anything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think there’s a great Lincoln Project ad to be made with Grifterella cooing “judge him by the results” with those numbers, among other images
Kay
@Jeffro:
I just think we have to assume they’ll do everything they can and they have the entire executive branch (corruptly and unlawfully) working on re-electing him, so it’s going to be a very rough two months. This is the hard part.
Viva BrisVegas
@dmsilev:
Whatever they want to call it, the panel method isn’t a poll, it’s a focus group. The indispensable part of polling methodology is random selection. Once someone has been polled, they are no longer random if they are polled again.
Online polls are even less random.
Jeffro
@Kay: Maybe. Maybe they think those laid-off folks don’t vote, or that the impact won’t be truly felt until after the election, or that they can somehow fire up & convert those folks to vote R (LOL) But completely agree that it was either corrupt motives or laziness or both there.
C’mon, Dems, hit ’em on this! Losing 30M jobs and gaining back 9M is NOT “winning”.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s do or die for the Trump Famiy though- they win this or they’re the loser family forever. It’s their own fault- if they had just gotten their own jobs like normal adults instead of following him around like deranged ducklings they wouldn’t be in this position.
Kay
@Jeffro:
It’s the same thing they did with Covid though. There are windows for things. They can’t just put off doing anything for the economy for two months because they have to pretend everything is fine. It’s not waiting for them. It’ll spread unless they intervene. Is spreading.
Jeffro
@Kay: this is true and like so many other things, worth its own ad/ads
“trumpov’s not running for re-election…he’s running to stay out of jail” etc etc
“the man is broke AF…investigations everywhere…are we going to give him a ‘get out of jail free’ pass?”
“Don Jr: working with the Russians. Eric: head of a tax-fraudulent organization. Ivanka: all these Chinese patents – voting machines??? – that suddenly showed up. Tiffany: – seriously, wtf does she care, suddenly showing up at the RNC?”
Give them a taste of their own medicine, only backed up by actual facts.
thalarctosMaritimus
@satby: Hi, satby–thank you so much for helping the kitten!
I can’t do much, but I could pitch in $10. What I can’t do, though, is look at the pictures–I’m just too fragile for that right now.
Can you post a link for fundraising that doesn’t contain graphic pictures? Or, if you could tell me the name and city of the vet hospital, I could just call them up with my card.
I’m sorry to be kind of a hothouse orchid about it at the moment, but it’s really where I am right now. I’m glad you and the work crew and the vet team helped the kitten! I hate that you had to, but I’m grateful you did.
James E Powell
@WaterGirl:
I’m not buying the bounce, but if it is a bounce, it will be gone by next week.
If Trump gets above 44 and manages to stay there, we will have to be concerned, but not panicked.
Kay
@Jeffro:
I figured there would be tightening because my whole experience with Republican voters is there are people who are insincere and say they “don’t know” but actually always vote for the Republican. So I sort of price them in. If they’re in now fine, glad that bullshit’s over.
Jeffro
@Kay: yeah but there’s lag time in both the economic impact, the reporting (if any) about it, and then anyone mobilizing to do anything to mitigate/change it.
I mean, I hear you but it’s clear that the GOP doesn’t feel like it needs to prop up UI benefits or businesses anymore. After all, the stock market’s back, businesses are trying mightily to re-open, etc etc.
Now if we could just get those damn college football players out there on the field… /s
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I was reading an analysis earlier today arguing that trump basically can’t win without Florida. I hope whoever runs the state party and the Biden campaign in FL is looking hard at what happened in previous cycles
thalarctosMaritimus
@NotMax:
Thanks! I should have read all the comments before posting.
Off to the page with images disabled!
Kay
@Jeffro:
Big issues aside I will never understand people who don’t object to the Trumps ROBBING us. These are people who have taken millions in public money and funneled it directly into their pockets. I don’t know man, I can’t help you if you’re begging to be robbed. I don’t know what to do with that.
James E Powell
@Omnes Omnibus:
That’s the good news I tell myself every day. That and Trump’s disapproval rating, which has been as solid in the mid 50s as his approval rating has been around 42%.
Jeffro
@James E Powell: I think this election is pretty much already locked in. You have to ask, on either side, “what would make D or R voters move at this point?” And the answer is, “nothing”.
Literally nothing.
Jeffro
@Kay: It’s definitely a missed opportunity. The golf trips…the constant staying at his own properties…the use of taxpayer funds to try and bribe Ukraine to frame Biden…the sheer NOTHING on his daily schedule.
Missed opportunity, totally agree.
Maybe a graph: “his ‘donated’ $400k salary vs $200M in golf-related expenses and travel: you be the judge, hardworking Americans”? The $$$ paid out to his daughter and son-in-law, and then asking them if they’d be ok if Hillary had done the same with Chelsea and her husband?
Nothing registers with the die-hards but you never know…even peeling off 1% would be worth it.
Jean
These are going to be the most horrible months of T’s presidency. The stoking of violence will get worse. I wish the whole election were over, and we’d just know NOW whether we have a democracy. Whether we will have any national plan for COVID, beyond hoping for an effective vaccine. Whether there is any hope of bringing people together (never mind the Trump cult). Whether we will have a working economy for NORMAL people who aren’t rich already.
I just read a column by Frank Rich in the Intelligencer. The comments were horrible, so I stopped reading.
Kay
I can’t imagine his mother allowing this. Can you imagine? I have a 17 year old. It would be a cold day in hell where this happened on my watch. WTF could she possibly be thinking? He was a kid with problems. The kids who knew him knew he was in trouble, going off the deep end. So she gives him access to guns and makes sure he gets to the protest? I mean, he’s responsible for his actions but he’s also 17. Take him home! Does she think this is a hobby?
rikyrah
If I ever meet Mr. Dale, post-COVID , I am buying him dinner.
I believe that he has done a heroic service.
James E Powell
@Jeffro:
I ask myself – and indirectly everyone reading this comment – what would have to happen to cause Biden’s support to plunge like Hillary’s did after the Comey letter?
It’s not going to happen because of some Hunter Biden bullshit or Kamala is really a cop but actually hates police thing. The public is not going to believe a bullshit smear campaign at this late date.
At the same time, what will it take to cause Trump’s support to drop like it was during the week just before the Comey letter? Apparently no actual event or information will move the needle. But I think that if we go into the final two weeks with him still sitting 5-6 points down, the realization that he is going to lose is going to crater his support, like Carter in 1976. Some of his people will just not vote.
That’s what I’m hoping for.
Kay
@Jean:
I think it’s really a profound problem too, Jean. I try not to think about it because when I start to get my arms around how big this problem is I despair. We’re in real peril as a country. We may not be okay and I think we have to face that. It’s worse to lie and pretend it’s not true so I’m glad you said it.
mrmoshpotato
@rikyrah: He truly is a Canadian-born national treasure.
rikyrah
@Another Scott:
I don’t believe the Black numbers. I call bullshyt ??
rikyrah
@Jean:
There was a guest on AM Joy this morning that brought me to tears, as she said that Black people believe in the idea of America and fight for it more that the cynical poseurs on the right.
Yutsano
@rikyrah: He’s an Anglo Canadian. Make sure you include lots of beer.
Kay
@rikyrah:
Grandbaby is already eating real food. I gave her spaghetti and she loved it. I forgot how much fun it is to give them new foods. My daughter says I can’t say she’s a “good eater” because that makes her sound like a “glutton”. Her parents are so sensitive! She’s not- she’s cheerful and good natured but sadly her parents are NOT :)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: I don’t know gun laws, but… somebody had to buy him that gun, right?
rikyrah
Eolirin
@Jeffro: What makes this especially terrifying is that the economy is also prone to non linear effects, much like COVID. We’re seeing an increase in firings and we’ve got a looming homelessness crisis that is going to make 2008-9 look like nothing. That’s going to overwhelm a lot of our systems, and put further pressure on already collapsing state budgets.
Another month of continued inaction may see the entire country in economic freefall.
rikyrah
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He was 17?
Where? did ?get?the?gun ?
Yutsano
@mrmoshpotato: CNN must have thrown a mint at him to get him away from the Toronto Star.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Those college numbers ????
Jean
@Kay: Exactly. When I dare to allow myself to think about living here under a Trump dynasty, I feel sickened. COVID quarantine will only be part of my plan to narrow my world to the few things I can control. Having become used to few social contacts over these past 6 months may help. I have my small family, my dogs, and my horse.
Reminds me of a sappy country song: “sometimes, she rides down by the river/makes her feel reckless and young/She closes her eyes and hangs on tight/and she lets that pony run”
MisterForkbeard
@James E Powell: I’m betting on a surprise “Biden’s a pedophile” ‘scandal’.
They’ve got a few highly misleading pics and gifs, and it tracks with the QAnon folks. I think it’s where they’re going.
Jean
@MisterForkbeard: I do think you’re right about that. A Canadian friend (also US citizen) mentioned something about “creepy” Biden photos, and yet, she still plans to vote for him. She wishes the Democrats had found a better candidate.
brantl
I don’t know if this is an original idea that we should (as Democrats, and do this as a group), it seems that we should have a fact-checking enterprise develop debunking sheets for all of Stump’s lies, with the real details listed of the actual facts of the matter. Now, all of us can’t carry all of the facts around in our heads, all the time, but we could carry the book, if we were the people in a position to speak for Democrats in public settings. We should fund this as Democrats, so not only can we say they are wrong, but then be able to rattle off the true facts. Why don’t we fund this? This is the answer to Frank Lunz and his ilk. We need to lay the groundwork to bury these assholes. And the truth is what buries these assholes, if we have it ready to hand.
Peale
@MisterForkbeard: my niece who is 20 and in Ohio already Says won’t vote for Biden because he’s a pedophile. It’s heartbreaking.
Eolirin
@brantl: This really doesn’t work. They’ve got an extensive multipronged propaganda network that acts as a sealed information bubble that teaches the people inside of it that everyone outside of it are liars and part of a conspiracy against them. Anything you say is fake news and always will be.
And then there’s the issue of belief perseverance as a general psychological fact of humans; when presented with evidence that a strongly held belief is wrong most people reject the evidence and strengthen their belief even more.
matt
I don’t really see the point in tracking all the lies he tells, or other Republicans tell. There is no working with them, conversing productively with them, or living with them in a reasonable well-ordered society. They are criminal, fascist trash.
opiejeanne
@satby: I can’t handle this at all. I’m sorry. I’d send money if I had just a link, no pictures or description.
I don’t know if anyone has posted about Portland Oregon tonight but all hell is breaking loose. One person has been shot, ambulance and cops attending. Meanwhile, the MAGAts driving through have been shooting paintballs at people, spraying tear gas, driving into people.
Steeplejack (phone)
@thalarctosMaritimus:
You can go to that site and not see the graphic pictures. At the top there is one picture of the kitten’s face (not bad) and the donate button just below it. You can click that and donate without looking at any more pictures.
(Confirmed this on Windows and Android phone. Assume it’s the same for Mac and iPhone.)
Chris T.
Mentioned this in a dead thread, need to mention it again: Is anyone else weirded out by the fact that “Rittenhouse” was the name of the bad-guy family in the show Timeless? (see https://timeless.fandom.com/wiki/Rittenhouse)
Steeplejack (phone)
@rikyrah:
Fake news.
NotMax
@Chris T.
Nope. Not at all. Also the name of a crater on the Moon and a rye whiskey. Not an uncommon name.
Matt McIrvin
@dmsilev: They’re for different purposes. You’d expect a panel poll like that to have a relatively large systematic error, relative to the general population, because you take one sample of people and that’s it–there’s no randomization to fuzz away any bias coming from your initial sample. On the other hand, it’s probably better than a regular tracking poll at detecting small changes in sentiment based on some event, because you’re not looking at random noise from the variations in the sample from day to day.
MisterForkbeard
@Peale: Right. I think it works with people who don’t want to vote democratic and don’t actually have a reason. It’s complete horseshit, but if you’re looking for an excuse to stay pure and bothsides everything, then you’ve got this ready-made narrative.
James E Powell
@Jean:
Every time I see this I want to scream and break glass. It’s the kind of childish bullshit that helped swamp Gore in 2000 and Clinton in 2016. There is no better candidate. If there were, that candidate would have run & won. Our candidate is so much better than the alternative that I cannot imagine why anyone thinks we need a better candidate.
The other car only goes 30 miles an hour, ours goes 110, but I wish we had a faster car.
The other box has a dollar in it, ours has $500,000.00, but I wish we had a million.
That’s how the “I wish we had a better candidate” sounds. Silly.
thalarctosMaritimus
@Steeplejack (phone):
Thanks! I appreciate your letting me know.
I was able to turn off images, donate, then turn them back on after I left the page.
Normally, I can cope with reality, but this whole 2020 thing is starting to really get to me. :(
I hope Sammy recovers well, and gets back to being a healthy kitten soon!
dopey-o
Trump has already telegraphed his plan to contest the election. Once the polls close in the major swing states, russian-manipulated counts will give Trump a commanding lead. By 2 am on Nov 4, Trump will declare victory and stop the counting of mail-in ballots.
By 6 pm, a national emergency will be declared. We will take to the streets Thursday morning.
brantl
@matt: Being able to beat back the foothold that they get on independants when this stuff isn’t refuted swiftly, is worth doing. Having stuck the landing on presentable facts, with reliable sourcing helps to stop this stuff from getting a foothold. I’m just saying we should pool money for a debunking squad that gets paid and share it amongst all needful individuals..
brantl
@brantl: Otherwise it takes everybody being incredibly fact-wonkish, rather than one (or a group of people) being fact-wonkish, and sharing with the rest of us.
Chris Johnson
@Kay: No, from what I heard she is another wingnut. He was doing what she wanted, the whole time.
Chris Johnson
@opiejeanne: This had my attention as well. All the usual suspects on Twitter are coordinatedly flooding the topic with the news, including the guy directly responsible for pilling my former friends, Tim Poole. Damn good thing I’m not talking to them anymore.
Can’t help but notice a Trump parade was driving through the protests shooting people with (paintball) guns and pepper spraying them. Is that the new normal? That you as a Trump person get to fire apparent assault weapons (that are really paintball guns) and pepper spray protestors? Are all Trump people officially now cops?
Unless the whole thing is lies, someone shot one of the Trump people. So naturally the Official Take is that now you need to go and murder all the protestors or something.
I’m reminded of Beau of the Fifth Column, who’s been useful but had an issue with gun control stuff in the Dem platform. Recently he’s come around because he thinks it’ll never actually happen so it’s OK to vote for Biden anyway, which he had already intended before getting rattled by the gun control thing.
This is the cost of people like him. I don’t know if it’s gonna dissuade the Trumpers. But the thing is, the protestors are in the right but the protestors are ALSO Americans. And that means you can’t go in and pepper spray them, apparently shoot them with assault rifles, and ACTUALLY shoot them with assault rifles. Because eventually someone is going to shoot back.
And that was always the plan, was to get someone to shoot back and then generalize that to all of them.
Though, I gotta say, the right have been acting like these people have been shooting Trump people the whole time. If all this is true, it just took the Trump people pepper spraying protestors themselves and apparently shooting them with paintball guns to get the real deal to happen.
Kay
@Chris Johnson:
Then she put her own son in prison, because he was going to shoot someone at that protest- that’s why he went there. She can be (and would be) charged for hosting a party where underage people drink but not for taking an armed 17 year to a protest? It’s ludicrous.
Kay
@Chris Johnson:
When he’s in prison, and later when he gets out with a violent felony record, he’ll have decades to reflect on how none of the people who were supposed to protect him did, and how instead they used him for their own ends. They’ve turned him into a celebrity but he’s a celebrity charged with murder. How has Right wing celebrity turned out for George Zimmerman? He has no life. He sues people. That’s all he does. He sells shit on Ebay and acts as the plaintiff in ridiculous lawsuits. The NRA didn’t even give him a job and they were paying all kinds of people for doing nothing- they could have added Zimmerman to their general fraudulent payroll easily.
bemused
@Kay:
Late to comment but maybe the trump kids will get gigs on Fox.
WaterGirl
@Peale: There is plenty of evidence to indicate that Trump is a pedophile. Does that not matter?
WaterGirl
@opiejeanne: I was worried about the same thing as you.
I mostly covered my eyes with my hand when I clicked on the site. On my laptop screen, there was only one photo, and it was just his face, and the donate link was just to the right of that, so I didn’t even need to scroll down.
I clicked donate and was able to enter all the information without ever seeing any photos besides the original one of hit little kitty face.
So maybe if you have a huge monitor you might see more than that, but on my mac laptop it was fine.
WaterGirl
@Chris T.: I saw that but hadn’t replied. After I read your comment, I clicked on some other link here – totally unrelated, from several years ago – and that, too, had Rittenhouse on something big.
Sorry, I don’t recall what the other link was. I have slept since then!
But I did not sleep well, my worst night’s sleep in months. The kitty really upset me, even without seeing any photos. What disgusting creatures a lot of humans are.
Subsole
@satby:
Chipped in a bit.
Please keep us posted.
taumaturgo
@TS (the original): I believe that Yo-semite is co-opting Joe by visiting the area and by doing so he would transform the message into a law and order and against socialist vandals bullshit. A visit by Joe could turn the message into one of solidarity and compassion for the family of the victims of police and vigilante terrorism. A wasted opportunity?
WaterGirl
@taumaturgo: Nope. Joe doesn’t need to grandstand or use this for political gain. Joe talked to the family, and it’s clear where Joe stands.
Another Scott
One for Kay, and for those of us who hate the FTFNYT.
It’s nice to know that Schmidt kept this juicy tidbit for his book, 3 years after it might have done some good, isn’t it??
Grr…
(via nycsouthpaw)
Cheers,
Scott.
L85NJGT
Favorables/Unfavorables in new ABC/Ipsos poll:
Joe Biden: 46/40 +6
Kamala Harris: 43/34 +9
Donald Trump: 31/59 -28
Mike Pence: 31/49 -18
August 11 before the start of either convention:
Biden: 40/43 -3
Harris: 35/31 +4
Trump: 35/58 -23
Pence: 31/45 -14
WaterGirl
@L85NJGT: So Pence un-did 4% of his unfavorables with his speech, and didn’t lose any positives. Interesting.
BruceFromOhio
Had to journey back quite a bit for an open thread, this is for SubaruDianne:
ABC to air Black Panther ad-free tonight @ 8pm, followed by a tribute to Chadwick Boseman.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@L85NJGT: So Biden’s favorables went UP 6 points, while Dump’s went down 4 points.
TomatoQueen
@TomatoQueen: sorry to bring the sad news that tiny tiny Sammy has slipped away. Update on the fundraiser page was in my email this am: https://www.gofundme.com/f/5njq7-sammy039s-emergency-surgery?viewupdates=1&rcid=r01-159889128176-beada4afcc574de9&utm_medium=email&utm_source=customer&utm_campaign=p_email%2B1137-update-supporters-v5b It’s not much comfort but yet he was loved in the end.