I’ve believed for years that Democrats are far too nice to the Republican Party — they won’t portray it as the major roadblock preventing the enactment of broadly popular polices (on healthcare, the climate, guns, taxation, infrastructure, and many other issues) and they won’t create a counternarrative to the GOP’s incessant “Democrats are evil” messaging. Certain groups in the population — non-whites, college-educated city-dwelling whites, suburban women — have intuited that the GOP is the problem, but not because Democratic officeholders or officials ever say it is. Establishment Democrats won’t say it because they endlessly dream of a return to an Eden where the parties get along and compromise. The new wave of progressive Democrats won’t say it because they’re nearly as critical of mainstream Democrats as they are of Republicans. Many of the media outlets we pay attention to have been frank about Donald Trump’s moral bankruptcy, but can’t wrap their minds around the nihilism and extremism of Mitch McConnell and his crew, or the heartlessness of vote-suppressing, COVID-denying GOP governors and legislators.
Does anyone in the Democratic Party get it? Does anyone know how to fight back? […]
He goes on to quote from a piece from Jerry Taylor, a former ALEC and Cato operative who is surprised at how little discussion of politics occurs at his new think tank, which is the opposite of how the right wing think tanks operated. As Steve M points out, it’s not a coincidence that the best attack ads of this cycle have been produced by a bunch of former Republicans at the Lincoln Project.
The issue of Democrats not being able to paint horns and a tail on Republicans as effectively as Republicans have demonized them is complicated. One issue is that current senior Democrats like Pelosi consider themselves legislators first and politicians second (she’ll say that she’s a legislator all the time, with pride). It’s much easier to be a Republican since you never legislate, as the current clusterfuck around a relief bill demonstrates. Another issue is that the current role of money in politics takes some of the fight out of Democrats who need to raise a couple of million bucks every cycle from donors who are at best “centrists” and certainly don’t want to hear that Republicans are bad.
Still you can’t legislate shit if you can’t get into power, and there has to be a way to fix this, or we’re all dead.
germy
“We need a title for this
.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@germy: LOL yeah I just noticed that and put a title on.
germy
I thought Tim Kaine was excessively polite and complimentary during Pompeo’s recent testimony. That’s the testimony where Pompeo (born in 1963) claimed he fought in the army on the East/West German border.
I mean, it’s okay to be civil during questioning, and even preferable, but don’t give them fucking tongue baths.
Matt McIrvin
Anytime any Democratic politician even hints at this, it gets flung back at them as some kind of insane hate-mongering. E.g. Hillary Clinton’s basket of deplorables. Surrogates who are not even Democrats may be the best vehicles for the message we can manage.
germy
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
At first I thought the non-title was a statement in itself that i was missing the meaning of.
germy
(Robert Benchley, “Movie Boners”)
download my app in the app store mistermix
@germy: Part of it is that these older guys came up in a system where playing nice did have some rewards. And, in fairness, it has to be pretty soul sapping to realize that, as a Dem Senator or MoC, you’re in a steel cage death match for probably the rest of your life. It’s just exhausting if you didn’t sign up for it in the first place.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Matt McIrvin:
Yes, this is due to Republican efforts for 20 years to make sure Democrats are judged by a different set of rules than Republicans. There are two ways to deal with it – and one may be surrogates. The other is just to keep doing it until it becomes accepted that Democrats can do it, too. AOC is probably an example of someone taking the latter approach. Do Republicans still try to sanction her speech? Of course. Does it work? Somewhat, but I think her message breaks through.
Hildebrand
The moment the Democrats go ‘negative’ the media will flood the zone with ‘both-sides’ articles that will drown out whatever salient arguments the Democrats make. Let the Lincoln Project folks do the dirty work, as their ads actually carry more weight because they are the theoretical grown-ups on the Republican side of the aisle (I am still not convinced they don’t turn on Biden the second after he is declared the winner).
Major Major Major Major
The Taylor piece was a good, non-polemical primer on the “hack gap”. I might send it to some people who don’t believe me about it.
Ksmiami
@germy:
I’m a kick them in the teeth Democrat. The GOP is a death cult and when they go low, you kick them in te teeth.
MattF
@Matt McIrvin: I think the decades-long campaign against Hillary Clinton was the apex of the right-wing crusade against Democrats. The winger-industrial complex trying to repeat it against the current crop of Democrats, e.g., Biden is a child molester, AOC is a whore… but it isn’t working as well and they don’t have the time to hammer it in– they have to win an election now, and it isn’t looking good. But hoping that they’ll change their spots is hopeless– it’s not a strategy, it’s just hoping that they’ll go away, which they won’t.
Baud
Are our voters willing to sacrifice themselves and their children’s future to hurt Republicans, the way that GOP voters do? If not, then we can’t mimic their tactics.
Frank Wilhoit
Crossposting my comment from Steve’s place:
”
Liberals — therefore, Democrats — cannot be comfortable holding or exercising power, because power cannot be legitimate in a time and place such as this. Two reasons: (1) the body politic is made up of infants; (2) the institutional structure has failed.
We may hope — we must hope — that liberals would be comfortable with legitimate power, but constructing legitimate power would require remedies for both of the above problems. The remedies are as easy to identify as they are difficult to apply. The remedy for (1) is a process of universal education, to a higher standard than has ever been envisioned, lasting two human lifetimes. The remedy for (2) is the explicit rejection of the 1787 Constitution (which has already been implicitly rejected by every actor in the political system) and a complete break of continuity, followed by the creation of a new set of institutions that cannot be construed in any way as the successors of the old, failed institutions, because if they could, they would be discredited before they even came out of the starting gate.
Pending these remedies, the only kind of power that can exist in practice is illegitimate power and its only possible exercise is in favor of one faction and against another.
What we want is favor for our faction. We need to think very clearly about this and about the rationales for it.
“
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Baud:
This doesn’t make sense to me – the tactic of having a think tank work on how to do politics as well as policy in service of policies that will benefit our side doesn’t have to hurt our voters. The trick that the GOP has pulled off is that they have convinced their voters that they have the same interests as their donors, when, really, their donors’ preferred policies will harm the voters and their children.
MattF
@Hildebrand: I expect the LP will criticize Biden– that’s no more than normal politics. And you won’t see them saying anything positive about Sanders. I’m OK with that.
zzyzx
@Baud: that’s something that I point out regularly. It’s easier to destroy than create. If you don’t care about government doing anything, it’s a lot easier to go scorched earth, because it’s about removing legitimacy.
If your goal to create a civil society where we work together to accomplish things, then you’re somewhat barred from using a few techniques; they might win elections but they won’t get policy passed.
There might be workarounds but I haven’t seen them yet.
Sasha
We need to start outsourcing more to the Lincoln Project.
Baud
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
You’re talking about attack messaging. That has to have an audience. Who is the audience you’re trying to reach?
Baud
@Sasha: No. They’re still Republicans.
Hildebrand
@MattF: I guess I’m just feeling curmudgeonly – I feel the Lincoln Project folks, Jennifer Rubin, George Conway, the whole lot of ’em will not just turn back into bog-standard Republicans the day after the election, they will haul out the long knives for Biden and the rest of his administration. I just don’t trust them.
Major Major Major Major
@Sasha: the lincoln project peeps are very talented hacks, but they’re still somebody else’s hacks
Baud
@Hildebrand: You have an extra “not” in there.
Captain C
@Baud: We do have an advantage in that if our preferred policies are enacted, they won’t actually screw our voters. They would even help Republicans, too, but the latter seem determined to cut off their noses and other parts just to pwn the libs so they vote Republican.
gene108
If you want to be the party of good government, it becomes harder to be the party of scorched earth politics.
Second, very rich conservatives are willing to throw millions into media operations, think tanks, lobbying (ALEC), etc. to get what they want. Democrats are at the mercy of what the MSM is willing to cover.
There are no liberal billionaires.
Third, Democratic voters are not filled with the level of rage, and resentment conservatives are. So many here have commented they are getting exhausted from constantly being outraged by Trump & Republicans. We are not constituted to look at others as irredeemable evil scum, which I think is necessary to try to be as scorched earth as Republicans.
germy
@MattF: But they love them some Ronald Reagan. The “states rights” (wink wink) guy who launched his campaign a few miles from where the three civil rights activists were slaughtered.
MattF
@Hildebrand: I wouldn’t lump Rubin with Conway, that’s just careless, IMO. There are… ah… certain things one doesn’t bring up in discussions with George, and that’s a bad sign.
A Ghost to Most
Democrats are too nice. It’s why they get rolled so often by the fascists.
“Y’all better buckle up. This sh..stuff is real.” – Michael Steele
MattF
@germy: Yeah, the Reagan-love is a mystery to me. And yeah, politics matters.
Baud
Remember the infamous refrain from 2016: “I need something to vote for.”
Dan
Democrats need a hit squad. I understand the issues of legislating and money raising. The politicians themselves should continue to act as they have been. But they need a team of assassins who can work with a stiletto or a sledgehammer who can do the dirty work and be plausibly deniable.
CaseyL
If we’re advocating for Biden and other Democrats as part of a de facto “Reconstruction” of US politics back to a concept of a common good and generally utilitarian policies, then part of that is moving away from scorched earth politicking. Rolling around in the gutter with the GOP isn’t going to fit that message.
However, Democrats do need to make it clear that the GOP has been a pack of thieves and grifters who have no interest whatsoever in a common good or policies that serve the common good. Outsourcing to the Lincoln Project is one way to do that, and LP is doing a bang up job at it. These are GOP admeisters, who have been brought up in the environment of scorched earth. Let them do what they do best, and be happy that for once their not directing it at us.
Another way – and I think Biden is doing this – is to point out, in every press availability, speech, and debate, just how much damage the GOP has done to the country, how the GOP sees Americans as sheep to be fleeced, how much ground we have lost due to the GOP indifference to Americans’ wellbeing, and particularly the GOP’s depraved disregard for human life during the pandemic. Just keep saying it, in measured and even tones.
IMO, anyway.
Baud
BTW, I like the Biden attack ads I’ve seen. He’s doing a good job mixing it up.
NotMax
@Sasha
The Lincoln Project ads reach a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the general populace. Not to say that some of them aren’t devastatingly good, just that their penetration is extremely limited. Also, in the ad game, repetition is crucial.
ruemara
Lol. It’s always the Democractic party’s fault for how the media explains it. We are too nice, don’t think I don’t feel that way. Prosecutions for Republican crimes to stay in power should have been immediate when we gained power. However, the narratives are set in the media and when the dems even mildly push back, they are treated horribly by left & right alike. They get ZERO credit for it and a lot of blame for not being willing to negotiate. Considering how often I hear Democratic legislators say the Republicans are the problem – because I follow their feeds – it’s hilarious to say that Dems don’t do this. I love the alternate universe where if Dems said it the right way, people would get it and realize, “Yeah, republicans are the baddies! Let’s never vote for them!” Pretend progressives gain more power for attacking Democrats, so, of course they are no help. They have no problem working with supposed establishment Dems to develop a bill or a statement on an issue on Monday, then talking to the media on Wednesday and talking shit like it’s a shame that they have to deal with same establishment Dem as a member of their party.
The people who can pay half a moment’s attention know it’s republicans.
Baud
@Dan:
Yep. The hack gap M4 referred to above is what we’re missing most.
MattF
@NotMax: Um, but we’ve all seen them… so there is an audience. If there’s a demographic that the LP is aiming at, it’s us.
James E Powell
@Matt McIrvin:
That was a good illustration of bad Democratic habits. The Democrat says something not only true, but obviously true. Republicans explode, press/media explode right along with them. Democrats apologize, grasp pearls, agree that it was going too far, pray for civility.
Republicans would have intensified, mocked anyone who objected as weak and thin-skinned, and moved on to the next outrageous statement.
Dan
James Carville was a good hit man.
germy
But we need a majority.
One thing I notice: people complain that Democrats aren’t saying this or that. But then it turns out they ARE saying this or that, but the media doesn’t report it.
Hildebrand
@MattF: The Lincoln Project is aiming the ads inside the beltway. Yes, they are trying to get under Trump’s skin, but they are also performing for the media and for Democrats who are engaged and enraged enough to support anyone who will hit the Republicans hard.
germy
Their ads are good, but they’re too busy paying themselves to use that money for more penetration.
NotMax
@MattF
If I’m reading you correctly, that “we” boils down to preaching to the choir. Offhand, I’d wager up to 90% of the country has not or is only hazily aware of them.
(Personally, I haven’t seen any of them. Unnecessary to look. Well beyond any need to be convinced.)
gene108
@Baud:
Political hacks, especially good political hacks, will cost you money to keep employed. Second, they have no other useful skill than being political hacks.
Conservatives have various Koch, Mellon-Scaife, etc. funded think tanks, magazines, etc. to keep their hacks employed. There’s a whole “wingnut welfare” ecosystem to maintain a stable of political hacks.
Liberals do not have this, and would likely reject it, if we went that route.
NotMax
@Dan
If only he spoke English legibly.
:)
Hildebrand
@germy: Bingo. The Lincoln Project have found a way to monetize Democratic anger and frustration.
LongHairedWeirdo
One thing that is missing from the above analysis is, what would happen if a few Democratic bigwigs said something. Every single right-wing outlet in existence would go after the people who speak out, relentlessly, while insisting that the absolute worst crime possible is to make such an accusation. (Kind of like how, to the right wing, discussing racism is far worse than actually, you know, being bigoted.)
Another thing to consider is whether the country is better, or worse, served, if both parties are constantly lying about how the other people are horrible demons trying to destroy democracy.
One thing that does need to be hammered home is how completely the Republicans own Trump, and every aspect of him. It is essential that the DOJ look at the administration unflinchingly, and not just at Trump’s actions, but at the action of everyone in the administration who had a duty to assist in seeing that the law was faithfully executed – i.e., everyone who had a legal responsibility to *stop* lawbreaking, who instead helped with the cover-up, has to go to jail. Those who were privileged white folks who quite sincerely thought an ivy league law degree was a license to commit non-violent crimes should be treated especially harshly, as the people who knew a heck of a lot better, but like Polanski, thought their particular form of evil was always forgiven in their industry. (Yeah, I know, it’s not a fair comparison. Polanski was in the entertainment industry, which doesn’t pretend to be serving any higher purpose.)
MattF
@NotMax: Well, FOX news preaches to its choir, that’s pretty much all they do. Choir members try earnestly to be holy, but are not, after all, absolutely immune to doubt.
Frankensteinbeck
@germy:
We were just talking about Nancy telling a reporter that Republicans don’t give a damn about helping people. Then evening and morning, the next day, and the ‘Democrats are too nice to Republicans’ narrative is back, with Pelosi specifically called out. On of the big rules of American politics is that Democrats cannot get credit for what they actually do.
James E Powell
@NotMax:
Tiny, tiny, tiny like 90,000 votes spread just right across three states?
MattF
@James E Powell: Good point. Elections are decided by people on the margin, who can’t make up their minds. It’s a small group.
gene108
Another way to look at why Democrats, and liberals are no good at being mean is this thread topic. Liberals love to almost exclusively focus on the negative.
We won big in 2018 riding the ridiculousness of Trump, and Republicans, to flip the House, and win at state and local levels.
We seem to be set for similar success this year.
But instead of touting how great we are doing, we find something negative to pick on.
Hildebrand
@James E Powell: But that is not who is going to be seeing their ads. These ads will be seen by folks who are already fully engaged, fully plugged in, and in many cases, writing the stories about the election. Now, if the Lincoln Project wants to start running these ads in contested markets, that would be awesome. But they won’t, because that’s not why they are doing this. This isn’t about moving the electorate, its performative.
patrick Il
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
One of the things I like about the Lincoln Project is the room it gives for democrats to be more aggressive . The Republicans hate the Lincoln Project, which tells you how effective it is. I have thankfully seen more aggressive ads from democrats lately. ‘But they are still too timid in person.
We are running against people who do not believe in democracy, and not just Trump. Acknowledge the high stakes.
kindness
One reason Democrats aren’t the same as Republicans in how we fight is Democrats view their base as cerebral where as Republicans view their base as driven by Fox News Viewing angst and rageaholics. Sure, getting someone into a rage makes it easier to push their buttons. But that isn’t how Democrats traditionally communicate with their supporters or with the media.
Now the taking for granted that the MSM itself sees that is probably giving the MSM more credit than they deserve because…. well, look at our Media. They are more than happy to gobble up bullshit and repeat it like a skipping record.
germy
artem1s
Oh for fucks sake. the only way you can have a true democracy is if everyone gets to benefit. If everyone gets civil rights and is treated equally under the law. The GOP has taken the stance for ever that more for someone else is automatically less for me. Those who are actually doing the work of racial and civil justice understand that we do these things because in the end, if I help my neighbor, I help myself. Hard sell tactics don’t work in the long run. Threatening to take prisoners and hold hostages doesn’t work in the long run. The MSM and the GOP has turned winning elections into a blood sport. If we follow their example, sooner or later it carries over into how you legislate. Then we all lose – sooner or later. The Lincoln Project is only influencing those who have been indoctrinated to react to the GOP method of negative advertising. Once they have ‘won’ their election they will declare victory because they will have regained the power they lost to the Trump Cartel. No hard work of fixing the fucking problem or actually legislating – ENDZONE DANCES FOR EVERYONE! For decades actual legislators have had to thread the needle of staying in office and actually getting something done. It’s easy to ‘win’ if you think job is over on election day.
If you don’t like baseball, that’s OK. It’s a slow and routine sport where the ball is in control of the defense. If you want action and the illusion of high scores* go watch football. But please stop trying to turn it into something it’s not so you can attract someone who really only wants to watch football.
If you don’t love the Democratic Party, that’s OK. But please stop trying to turn it into a TeaParty Lite GOP so you see ‘your team’ get more ‘scores’ and ‘action’
on the fieldduring political campaigns and state of the union addresses.*assign 7 points to every player who crosses home and 3 points to every player who gets to third and then tell me there is more scoring in FB than BB.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I didn’t recognize the name but she’s the one who grabbed the mic back when someone jumped on stage during a Harris interview.
Matt McIrvin
@kindness: I think one reason for the hack gap is that both liberals and leftists mistrust purely tribal thinking. E.g. we tend to think positions should be based on coherent ideology, not partisanship. That means that both centrists and the far left will readily attack their own party when they don’t think it’s adequately expressing their chosen ideology. But partisanship is what wins elections.
NotMax
@Hildebrand
Well put.
James E Powell
@Hildebrand:
You may be right, I can’t be sure. But those ads are all over social media. And while it is customary to disparage social media, the viral video of George Floyd’s death launched a movement that has already produced results I didn’t think were possible.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Frank has such a good point I am going to repeat it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gene108:
Well, there’s Soros, though I confess that even as a political junkie I’m not clear on where he spends his money in politics, but he got Susan Collins’ attention, in ad where the two most prominent people mentioned just happen to have… something in common
mrmoshpotato
@germy:
Thank you. Now I have a list of boners with ummmm….two items.
Roger Moore
@zzyzx:
Precisely this. The Democrats can’t safely use most of the Republicans’ tactics against them because the Republicans’ tactics are built around destroying the institutions the Democrats need to accomplish their goals. We cannot adopt the Republicans’ tactics without accomplishing their goals.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Adds which are specifically targeted to get under Trump’s skin and make him do self destructive things like fire his campaign manger four months before the election. The majority of the GOP isn’t as easily manipulated as Trump is and only ex Republicans could do this anyway because most people on the left don’t speak Wingnut.
germy
@Dorothy A. Winsor: The chief public affairs officer for MoveOn.org. That’s why she was hosting that event. I like her.
Karine Jean-Pierre Explains Why She Became Joe Biden’s Senior Advisor: I Did It For My 6-Year-Old
taumaturgo
The main frustration with the Democrats is their propensity to campaign like liberals and governing like conservatives. Too many examples to mention, so I’ll mention a few. Marihuana legalization and M4A. Even with overwhelming public support, the party leaders insist on governing like is 1920, not 2020. It seems the leadership is waiting for the GOP to run with these two issues, and only then, perhaps, Democrats will break away from their donors and support both planks. Oh. look the GOP support the issues, now is safe we Democrats should do it too. Democrats do fight for the donor class. They fight to scuttle legislation to protect folks from surprise billing and fight to prevent a vote in congress on any M4A legislation, and lastly, Democrats nominate and $upport conservative candidates over liberal candidates in every national or local race.
piratedan
@germy: I dunno, these are the types of ads that have a tendency to go viral, most of them are very social media friendly, easy to embed into tweets or facebook feeds to find their audience. The rate that they are being cranked out, with no GOP rebuttal because every other day, there’s a new ad just piles on to the tactic that there’s no response to them (if you think about how these same tactics were applied to the Clinton Candidacy and how it was a losing battle to have defend one or two of these each media cycle). When we get closer to national campaigning, it’ll be easy to tailor which of these LP ads play where and release them like the scary flying monkeys that they are.
Frankensteinbeck
@taumaturgo:
M4A does not have overwhelming or even majority public support. Universal healthcare does.
fey
The mantra of dems get treated differently by the media than republicans when they go negative is a self fulfilling prophecy at this point. If you roll over and apologize every time you say something truthful and negative about what the GOP is it reinforces the narrative. Rip the bandaid off and call them what they are, if the media clutches their pearls yell at them too.
The GOP has gotten great results out of playing the referees for years by screaming about bias. The dems seem to view that as an avenue entirely closed to them and in doing so leave themselves wide open.
The implication that going negative the way the GOP has will convert the dems into an equal monstrosity is a false narrative; the GOP is explicitly built on white supremacy and all the negativity and screaming is in service of that goal. Call out rampant racism, sexism and overt Nazi bullshit from the right because it’s the right damn thing to do.
AOC definitely understood this and she held Yoho’s feet to the fire in a way that you rarely see happen from the left, it got a lot of coverage and made him look like a clown. Seeing people who know how to play the game rather than mope about the rules being unfair is giving me hope.
mrmoshpotato
@Hildebrand: Same here. I’ll take their ads for now, but all they want is a Republican that doesn’t scream the quiet parts.
Xavier
Politics is easier when nihilism is your ethos.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
on topic: I enjoy Lincoln Project ads as much as any hyper-engaged, hyper-informed political junkie concerned about things like corruption, the debasement of Congress in the face of a power-hungry authoritarian executive and America’s standing in the international community. Alas….
also, people who respond to the kind of rage-fueled and resentment politics Republicans engage in tend to be on the right, and the ones who are on the left are far fewer in number, and no less drawn to just the kind of dumbed-down politics trump practices, and the kind of unworkable bumper-sticker solutions which are fine slogans, and often laudable goals, but which don’t have a history of winning statewide, much less national, elections.
Jeffro
@Matt McIrvin: It gets flung back at them…by Republicans, and by their enablers in the media. Not by Democrats.
Until Dems learn to point that out, over and over and over, Republicans will keep doing it and the national snooze media will keep enabling them.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Hildebrand:
I’ll wait and see how many ads they run in these races, and how effective they are. I’m not inclined to send them any money
mad citizen
@germy: Fox Sports Radio (!?!) “interviewed” trump? wtf? trump team is really getting desperate now. I had to google it–it was their morning tool clay travis. I heard him last week and he was talking crap about the virus not being that bad and how college football should happen.
The virus is a slow moving preventable disaster. We had 25 new deaths in Indiana reported today. If there were an accident or shooting that killed that many in one day, it would be a major news event. Now, it is what it is.
taumaturgo
@Frankensteinbeck: Google it. 60% plus. Listening to the Democrats, you’ll never hear it.
germy
Yutsano
@taumaturgo: No that’s YOUR frustration chief. Don’t conflate the issues.
JDM
Another – and this is obvious and I think the major stumbling block- is that when a Democrat says even mild criticisms of any rightwinger, our media tends to be “offended” along with the rightwing. This is the opposite of what happens with Republican complaints.
To correct this, I think, requires just plowing ahead a criticizing and take the media flack. But that’s easier said than done; we’re talking about standing up to years of abuse amplified by media that should be on your side. I’m telling them they should do it anyway, but I’m not the one getting the abuse.
Betty Cracker
@fey:
QFT. It’s become a form of learned helplessness. Trump might inadvertently assist us in this regard by being so loathsome that elected Democrats are emboldened to call him what he is. It’s time to extend that to his enablers in Congress. There are no “friends across the aisle.”
mrmoshpotato
@germy:
Dump’s pussy-grabbing, Soviet shitpile mobster conman ass can throw himself into an active volcano.
jl
@Jeffro: I agree. In politics, you are always going to be attacked by your opponent no matter what you do. So, I don’t agree with reasoning that concludes Democrats can’t do or say this or that because they will be attacked for it. It is the one of the politicians’ jobs to figure out a way to go on offense to persuade voters to support their policies and psychologically identify with their values.
I don’t want to try to diagnose the problem, but from my perspective, what I hear from Democratic leadership is next to nothing. I think both Pelosi and Schumer very inconsistent in effectiveness in interviews. Sometimes very effective and clear, other times it is hard to figure out what they are talking about, or so inside baseball that it is hard to follow. To be fair GOP has a different problem with same result: much of their messaging has fallen into incomprehensible cultish code-talking which only their base understands, but it least that riles them up to support the cult. Compared to, for example, progressive groups’ and Lincoln project’s ads attacking Trump and GOP, centrist Democrats are just not visible, from what I see, just no public messaging at all.
Not sure what the problem is, but it needs to be fixed.
Yutsano
@mrmoshpotato: What did that poor innocent volcano do to you? Heartless bastage.
fey
@JDM: Yep, Hillary backpedaling on deplorables was disappointing. They were deplorables and much worse could have been said about them and still have been true.
Stand up and defend your position when it’s right. Backing down because of the right wing outrage machine enables it further.
Eolirin
All of the polling data I can find that actually describes what M4A policy would require, as proposed by people like Sanders, suggests there’s an extremely low level of support.
If you just poll the name it does well. If you poll the policy it does very badly.
This matters when you’re trying to actually pass policy and not just score political points.
piratedan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I can attest to seeing the LP ads here in AZ against McSally. Kelly isn’t running anti-McSally ads here, he’s running pro-Kelly ads and indicating that he’s a rational human being who believes in good government and pointing out the piss-poor government response to the crisis.
McSally is busy running ads that say that Kelly is both in the hands of the Chinese and a defrauding businessman who can’t run a business properly while touting her support of medical coverage for people with pre-existing conditions, which is a blatant lie when you actually look at her votes.
She’s still running behind Kelly here but I would hazard that the LP ads here do have a market in saying that McSally isn’t an independent voice (which matters here in AZ) and that she has consistently voted with Trump about 95% of the time.
Repatriated
@germy:
In addition to continuity errors, there are also technical ones. One of my “favorites” is just before a big battle scene near the end of G.I. Jane. There’s a beautiful shot of attack helicopters silhouetted against the sun, with their rocket launcher pods showing a fascinating honeycomb pattern through them.
The holes in the honeycomb pattern are the rocket launch tubes. The launchers are empty.
And of course within half a minute they’re firing rockets out of them.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: Just look at Lindsey Graham. The main reaction to his current political behavior has been quizzical amusement, rather than outrage.
dnfree
@Dorothy A. Winsor: she is an invited guest on PBS Newshour occasionally. We’ve been very impressed.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@taumaturgo: There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who support Marijuana legalization. Heck, look at my State!
Obv. we’ve got to put out all the fires that the arsonist-in-chief has started first, but I’d like to see Dems make nationwide legalization happen sooner rather than later. That said, I imagine it’s still going to be an open issue in the 2024 primary.
It’s a good issue for Democrats, IMHO. Fights the “nanny state” anti-Dem stereotype and attracts Libertarian voters, which will especially help us in the western states. All while taking away the white supremacist “justice” system and police‘s favorite excuse to send Black and Latino Americans to prison. And legislation from Democrats will help keep it equitable, with rules that encourage minority ownership of Marijuana/Cannabis Industry businesses, etc.
jl
@fey: I agree, too much defensive crouch from Hillary Clinton in 2016. It was in everything, even the material they gave me when I did a couple of phone banks.
taumaturgo
@fey: Completely agree. Have you also notice that the current leadership seems to me to be playing by rules and procedures that Republicans don’t have any use for?
NotMax
@mrmoshpotato
Poor active volcanos don’t get no respect.
:)
germy
Speaking of pussy grabbing:
‘Obviously Required to Provide It’: Trump Given Deadlines to Produce DNA in E. Jean Carroll’s Defamation Lawsuit
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Eolirin:
You put this all much more nicely than I would have. But since I am a bastard, and I don’t have to win any votes in Overland Park or Grosse Pointe or their equivalents in Iowa, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin, I’ll point out that you’re trying to make a case to people who think “Look out the window, Mitch” is a brilliant and unstoppable legislative strategy.
taumaturgo
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Yes there are plenty of Democrats that run as liberals and govern as such but sadly with no or little help from the corrupt national party organizations.
germy
@Repatriated:
Finding mistakes in movies has actually become a genre. Lots of videos, essays, etc.
Benchley was spoofing a genre that didn’t even exist yet when he wrote it (1930s)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MattF:
that, and he’s in the closest race he’s ever been in, against a black guy in one of the trumpiest states in the union. And Claire McCaskill called him a “POS” on twitter, which I found amusing and emotionally satisfying, but I doubt it boosted Harrison’s numbers.
CaseyL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, well, just look at Bernie’s brilliant legislative record to see how effective his tactics are!/s
IOW, the purity progressives have no legislative record to point to, as they have never gotten any passed. All they have are talking points.
NotMax
@germy
Offshoot of the occasional studio produced blooper reels.
SFAW
@fey:
Exactly
MisterForkbeard
@CaseyL: As you can see from a certain person in this thread. Don’t you understand that the real problem is corrupt national democrats!
Sigh.
Martin
This is why the Lincoln Project is important. I get that people don’t trust them, but they’re showing how to fight Republicans. Josh Marshall called their ads ‘crimes against humanity’ for how hard they punch their targets. That was a compliment, btw.
If the only thing the Lincoln Project achieves is to teach Democrats how to talk about Republicans and how hard to punch in political ads, it’ll be the greatest service they could have given.
OldDave
@germy: (On movie boners) There was the scene in The Usual Suspects where a landing 747 magically turned into a 767 at touchdown.
taumaturgo
@Yutsano: Is my analysis and opinion, what’s yours?
Repatriated
@germy: Heck, cinema as we know it hadn’t existed more than a couple of decades at that time.
Just having it be technologically possible was wonder enough. And now you want continuity, too? Sheesh.
MattF
@MisterForkbeard: They’re talking about pie now.
mrmoshpotato
@Yutsano: It knows what it did!
Sab
OT Have you called your congress critter or Senator about the post office today? If not, you are not doing your duty as a citizen.
schrodingers_cat
Every single MM post, whatever the Ds are doing, they are doing it wrong.
catclub
Old habits dies hard. Apparently buckraking is more deeply ingrained than the southern strategy.
SFAW
@fey:
Things that come to mind when I read this: the “Fighting Liberal” column from the much-missed Steve Gilliard; and Bruno Gianelli’s tirade on West Wing. Dems might considering re-reading/watching them.
CarolDuhart2
The answer is not asking Pelosi or Schumer to create talking points to fight the Republicans. Or asking some liberal billionaire to take the financial hit of creating an answer to Fox. The answer is to do what the Republicans did a long time ago, and get and support ex-djs and get time on local radio and television and YouTube, and let them go on the issues and talking points. People who don’t have to worry about elections can afford to be outspoken and have the time to make connections with the prospective audience. Officials can then decide how much they want to identify here.
catclub
The recent hearing with big company presidents is the new forum for demanding evenhandedness. These are private companies, they can have whatever bias they like. Next time ask for Walmart to be evenhanded on unionization.
fey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You seem pretty angry that the left wing of that party is working for a seat at the table, I’m guessing the democratic party as it has existed for the past couple of decades must have worked out well for you. That’s great! But for a lot of people, especially those under the age of forty, it’s done a terrible job of providing for them; the economic recovery under Obama saw the younger generations left behind on many important fronts.
The split for Sanders was primarily based on age, not race or other factors. Maybe, just maybe, you could improve Democratic voter turnout by making policy proposals that appeal to your own base rather than trying desperately to win over the vanishingly small group of swing voters with policies that further leave the leftist youth out in the cold. Or you could get pissed that Sanders ruined everything and mad that younger voters have bad turnout when they are offered policies that don’t address the issues they are facing.
Yutsano
@mrmoshpotato: Don’t look at me. I’m not stupid enough to piss off Pele!
SFAW
@Martin:
From Diner: “I’ll hit you so hard, I’ll kill your whole family.”
One of the techniques Bill Clinton’s campaign used was to respond immediately, and forcefully, to any bullshit peddled by the GHWB campaign. I imagine that was Carville, although not sure.
germy
@OldDave:
I watch 1950s/60s westerns on MeTV.
Often, the “exterior” shots are obviously filmed (and lit) in studio. With the cowboys casting multiple shadows on the ground, as if there were two suns.
dnfree
@taumaturgo: Many people who favor M4A aren’t on Medicare. Most of my medical care is “free” because I pay for an expensive supplement plan, the cost of which goes up every year based on my age and the plan’s expenses. And some doctors don’t take Medicare or only take a limited number of patients because Medicare pays them so little. It doesn’t cover dental or vision with standard Medicare.
I’m not complaining, I’m grateful, but it’s far from a perfect system or a magic bullet. As I’ve seen written, it’s a plan designed in the 1960s, with those limitations built in.
SFAW
@catclub:
Not sure what your point is. But, the “referees” fey was referring to is/are the media. The Rethugs were screaming “LIBERAL BIAS!!!!” for 20-plus years, and the MSM responded by becoming (mostly) uncritical stenographers for the RWMFs.
NotMax
@Yutsano
Leave two bottles of gin at the rim, just to be on the safe side.
:)
(For those unaware, yes, that’s A Thing.)
dnfree
@taumaturgo: See my response to you above. M4A might poll well, but that’s because people don’t understand how Medicare works and/or doesn’t. I think the interpret M4A and universal health care as meaning the same thing.
Eolirin
@fey: Nope.
That’s not what’s happening and it’s not what we’re pissed off about.
JoyceH
If we’re going to talk about who’s fighting and who should fight, can we talk about the mask issue? WHY is it that every viral video about masks has an anti-masker being a jerk or being violent? The anti-maskers are a significant minority, and also an active threat to all of our lives, health, and safety and are prolonging a pandemic that requires us to abandon our usual lifestyle for a cramped and careful existence. Why aren’t THEY on the receiving end of the anger?
When an unmasked person enters a store, why don’t the masked patrons look at that person and think, “You’re the reason I lost my job,” “you’re the reason Aunt Julie died”, “you’re the reason I can’t watch college football”, “you’re the reason this stupid pandemic is going on and on and on and on”, “you’re the reason we can’t go to restaurants anymore”? Why don’t the masked patrons overwhelm that unmasked idiot in a mad swarm, getting in a few punches and kicks as they hustle the guy out of the store and kick him to the curb?
Why doesn’t that happen?!
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@dnfree: They see the terms as interchangeable when they are really, really not and they don’t want to hear it when people ask how M4A is really going to work and how it will be funded. People just scream M4A like its a magic spell.
Jesse
Martin Longman has a thoughtful piece up at Progress Pond about how to understand the Lincoln Project. Longman takes an insight from (curiously enough) Ross Douthat to make the point that these people just cannot be trusted because they don’t offer any explanation of why they were fighting for the wrong side for so long. Maybe some partial recognition of that is there, in some of them. But it’s going to take more than a series of ads to undo the damage the GOP has wrecked over the last couple of decades. We need some real contrition. And by that I mean much more than just saying, as a few have, that they’re going with Biden for 2020. I’m talking long walk in the desert, hair shirts, long-haul internecine fighting, you name it.
low-tech cyclist
@ruemara:
Let’s put it this way: you can’t expect the media to make more of a case for the Democrats than the Democrats are routinely making for themselves.
And similarly, you can’t expect the media to make a stronger case against the GOP than the Democrats are routinely making against them.
That should be common sense. You can’t expect the media to be more partisan than an actual party.
Reboot
When I think of Democrats, I think of Adam Schiff, AOC, Stacy Abrams, Kamala Harris, John Lewis, Maxine Waters, people like that. And, as mentioned previously in this thread, Nancy Pelosi. Let us say my impression of them is not ‘timid in person.’ I’d be curious who you’re thinking of that makes you think wholesale of Democrats as ‘timid in person.’
(This is in reply to patrick II at comment 54–not sure this is clear from the comment box.)
low-tech cyclist
@Reboot: Steny Hoyer.
low-tech cyclist
@Reboot:
If they were representative of Dem legislators in general, nobody would perceive a need for this conversation.
Omnes Omnibus
Why does this thread bring this to my mind:
Eolirin
@low-tech cyclist: No, but I can expect, because they do it constantly, that the media will make less of a case for Democrats than the Democrats do, and less of a case against the Republicans than the Democrats do.
And that they will actively sabotage any attempt for the Democrats to actually get their message across.
We are limited by what gets reported and repeated.
And the only way around that requires lots of money and media ownership. We’re at a perpetual disadvantage there.
We also don’t do the whole these are the talking points for the whole party and all of the compromised media outlets and no one is allowed to deviate from them thing, because we’re hampered by ethics and lack the financial backing to create consequences for failing to adhere to party line. We will never have the messaging discipline of the other side.
fey
@Eolirin: So we shouldn’t try? You can’t win if you refuse to even play.
The Moar You Know
@fey: Got a Trump-luvin’ parent who went fucking ballistic about “deplorables”
“Well, she’s lost my vote!”
She never had it. And I laughed, because I knew that. That’s the thing Dems need to start realizing. There is no downside and a boatload of upside to going on the offense with these people. You will never have their votes anyway.
Sab
@Jesse: Yes this. I read Stu Stevens book. OK. He didn’t notice the absolute virulent racism of his party for the last 40 years? Seriously? He didn’t notice?
Reboot
@Sab: On deadline, but took time to email my Repub rep and two Democratic senators. Appreciate your reminder, which is why I emailed today.
Thaddeu
~40% of the voters support Trump today. Think of that. They will sacrifice, health, wealth, and well-being to vote for someone who will give a worse shaft to the other 60%
I would like to see which messaging will build a winning coalition from the remaining 60% (plus, if you have some delusions as to what you can peel of from the 40%).
1)What is that message?
2)And who from that coalition is rich enough to push that message for decades?
For example, the Koch demons have spend their money for decades to get to Trump, spending millions over the years, patiently, whittling down opposition ..labor unions, liberals etc, and inciting racism, sexism, bigotry. to get what they want. Decades…millions… patiently. Rich enough to last that long, feeding off their pappy’s billions . There are many Koches on the right.
Which majority coalition of ordinary people in this country will struggle and sacrifice for so long to there?
@fey:
They are the most fickle voters. Progress is slow and grinding, not instant gratification
The Democratic coalition is fundamentally opportunistic. There is no core ideology to which there are committed believers. Its full of voters and money that will depart at the slightest peeve to republicans (as compared to the Republicans who stick to their ideology, through self-destruction)
Bernie bros are the prime example – if I dont get what I want, I’ll take my ball and go home, or I’ll burn it all down. And the Koches win, as they have the resources and the will to be in it for the long, long grinding haul.
Kay
@Jesse:
It’s going to get worse, too, for Republicans. They’re kidding themselves thinking Cotton or Sasse are going to fix what ails them.
A quarter of their base are QAnon. The post-Trump GOP will (incredibly!) be much worse than the Trump GOP. Tea Party to Trump to QAnon. This is not a good trend.
Last chance to jump off crazy-train, which is only picking up steam.
Omnes Omnibus
@fey: No one said that. Don’t put words into people’s mouths.
artem1s
@SFAW:
It was Rahm probably. Being a flaming asshole was fine when he was COS but when he actually had to legislate, it pretty much backfired for him
Roger Moore
@Repatriated:
I tend to be relatively forgiving of the kind of error you’re describing. While absolute realism is nice, making things visually attractive is also good, and I’m willing to accept an unimportant mistake like that if it makes for a compelling visual. Similarly, I’m willing to accept villainous monologues, dialogue in the middle of fights, etc. as dramatic conventions that aren’t meant to be taken literally. I think movies are a lot more enjoyable when you accept them as drama rather than a literal representation of the world, even the literal representation of a fictional world.
Omnes Omnibus
HRC’s platform was to the left of any Presidential platform in US history. Biden is trending to the left of that.
ETA: “your own base” is sort of telling language. Also, do you know who the Democratic base actually is? Hint: It isn’t white leftists.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@fey:
not really, just frustrated that so many of them seem vulnerable to dumbed-down, sloganeering politics and personality cults, and that they chose at least one toxic moron as their cult leader. In other words, I want the “left wing of the party” to be smarter, and thus more effective.
Yup, that’s why Bernie and Warren were neck-and-neck as they split all the primaries between them, because they (and you) get who the “base” of the party is, and where the votes are. That’s why the candidates who, if they win, will create the Senate majority are all embracing the DSA and Justice Dems’ platforms. That’s why you see Lauren Underwood, Lucy McBath, Sharice Davids, Conor Lamb, Abigail Spanberger and Colin Allred all begging “AOC!” and Bernie (!) to come campaign for them.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
if we’re relitigating 2016, what do people think did more damage to Hillary Clinton, “basket of deplorables”, or six months of a messianic old coot bellowing about WALL STREET SPEECHES and a rigged primary?
jl
Another issue is that Trump has a pattern of caving if he is publicly challenged. Trump usually seems very much more afraid of (edit: or terrified) public PR challenge or having to do any actual work than a member of general population with somewhat less than average level of focus and discipline. Edit: or he may be incapable of comprehending doing any work, or how to go about doing any work)
When Trumpsters threaten that you should not challenge Trump on some issue or action or something bad will happen, that is a sign he’ll fold like a tower of cards if you push him.
No excuse for timidity from the Democratic leadership in going on offense against Trump.
JoyceH
@The Moar You Know: ”
Got a Trump-luvin’ parent who went fucking ballistic about “deplorables”
“Well, she’s lost my vote!”
She never had it. And I laughed, because I knew that. That’s the thing Dems need to start realizing. There is no downside and a boatload of upside to going on the offense with these people. You will never have their votes anyway.”
What always interested me about the outrage over the Deplorables comment is that Hillary specifically said that there were TWO baskets, and ONE basket had the racists and sexists and bigots and haters – and the people who flipped out about the comment put THEMSELVES into that basket. Hillary didn’t call them bigots, they called themselves bigots by diving into the basket with them, instead of saying hey, I’m over here in this basket with the economically insecure.
fey
@Thaddeu: Progressing being slow and grinding is a much easier sell if you didn’t start at a much worse place than the people before you. Older millennials are nearing 40 and have nowhere near the capital that generations before them had at that point. Zoomers are looking down the barrel of a massive climate apocalypse.
Kay
@jl:
My only complaint is I would have done just straight corruption. Hearing after hearing on the self-dealing and corruption and extreme sleaziness. It’s such a rich vein to mine and it’s easy to prove.
Keep it simple. They’re thieves. Everyone understands that.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Eugene V. Debs holding on line one.
:)
Xavier
@Frankensteinbeck: Universal healthcare has majority support. But not M4A. Or that other one. Or any other specific one.
fey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’d say Russian collaboration, Comey, and a nearly 40 year hate campaign against HRC by the right and media are a larger culprit than either. Sanders is a scapegoat compared to all of that.
Roger Moore
@JoyceH:
Because the anti-mask people are engaged in semi-planned performance. There was a good article, IIRC in Slate, a while back that made this basic point. These aren’t people who have suddenly snapped. They are people who have been planning to have have a very public meltdown over masks and have thought about what they plan to say and do. In many cases, the video you’re seeing was recorded by their confederates as part of the plan. This is easy for an anti-mask person to arrange because they know where to go and what to do to provoke a confrontation, while pro-mask people in the same boat need to wait for circumstances to hand them an opportunity.
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: I’ll see that and raise you an Angela Davis. Happy? FFS.
Kay
She’s the worst. Ugh. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Robby-D
Occam’s Razor says the Dems personally benefit from this situation in some way, so they don’t point out how bankrupt the whole Republican party is and end up complicit in the entire morass that is politics.
Omnes Omnibus
@Robby-D: Oh, fuck off.
Poe Larity
There isn’t enough reverse psychology applied here – think 5 year olds and not 12.
If Democrats were wildly encouraging Red States to reopen, that would be driving the conspiracy-nuts nuts.
On movie derps, was watching Fail Safe, and in the Alert Bunker two old pilots play pool while grousing about technology and the youts. Problem is, single camera take and cue ball don’t play together so they’re just both whacking away at stripes and solids. Annoying for a film that is so technically rigorous and otherwise timeless.
Aleta
@Dorothy A. Winsor: @germy: From that link I see that Amanda Perez will be policy advisor to the running mate. From May ’19 she was the policy director for Cory Booker, and before that a senior policy adviser at the National Domestic Workers Alliance. In addition to their rights work for legislation, they’re an organizer of immigrant women workers, and they work with Black Lives Matter and women of color organizations. (They also have leader and organizer training/development programs.)
So I hope that means the campaign will be good at linking with NDWA affiliates and organizers, and will make their legislative issues an honest part of the platform.
MisterForkbeard
@Omnes Omnibus: I would also be a lot more sympathetic to this argument if the youth vote turned out for Bernie. It didn’t.
Fey’s not wrong that we should be appealing to leftists too, as you note here. Hillary was pretty far left, historically speaking. Biden’s further left in terms of proposed policies. So maybe there’s a perception issue here, or maybe people who are determined not to see where the party actually is need to be ignored.
catclub
@fey: I think “The Hunting of the president” dates the start to 1989, so merely 27 years as of 2016.
matryoshka
@JoyceH: You raise a very good question. This is what should happen.
MisterForkbeard
@Robby-D: This also ignores the fact that Dems DO point this out, and the combination of pushback/punishment and ignoring they receive when they do so.
Occam’s Razor would just indicate that there’s a reason the media doesn’t cover these things when Dems do it, not that Dems aren’t doing the things they’re doing.
fey
Yeah, I don’t think Biden is the worst wrt policy, he’s historically a politician who has tacked towards the median of the party consensus. That’s exactly why I think it’s valuable to have people like Bowman or Bush challenging mild dems in sapphire blue districts. Doing so moves what the acceptable policy proposals are. Without that pressure he would be certainly further to the right.
fey
@catclub: You’re correct, typo on my end.
JR
@Matt McIrvin: the problem with the “deplorables” comment was twofold: the first is that drawing lines like that is inherently exclusionary and violates the party ethos. The second is that it is a weird, elitist-sounding categorization. No regular person would use the term “basket of deplorables”. I’m not sure that phrase existed before Clinton coined it
LongHairedWeirdo
I’m sorry, but I feel like screaming when people say that.
No one is thinking “I will sacrifice my health and financial well being to make sure Trump beats up on others even more.”
They’re thinking “they’re trying to blame *TRUMP* for Covid and the economic downturn, but that was China, and the cowardly Dems, isn’t it? I mean, there are so many people who say that, so glibly, that it either must be true, or those people must be pure, dyed-in-the-wool, unthinking, uncaring, evil.”
And since the evil people who tell them such bullshit lies have no conscience, they never come around and admit that, oh, “hey, that woman really was missing almost all of her brain, and thus had to be in a PVS, so the Democrats weren’t evil murderers for wanting her husband to carry out her wishes.”
(Am I still furiously angry that the GOP let their followers believe that 20 separate judges would ignore facts and the law to let a helpless woman die? Well, I’ll make you a deal: find me 5 prominent Republicans who admit they *may* have overreacted a bit, and I’ll grant that still being furiously angry might also be an overreaction. )
The problem isn’t Trump, and it’s not Trump voters who are Fox mushrooms; it’s every single person who doesn’t tell the honest truth, in order to support people like Trump, who aren’t just stupid, venal, and corrupt, but outright criminally evil.
Baud
@JR: She was talking about racists. Would basket of racists have been more acceptable?
fey
@JR: I’m a-okay with excluding white supremacists from the party. I don’t think we need a unity ticket with David Duke. And complaining that it’s a weird turn of phrase vs a dude who has brain worms and can’t form a complete sentence is a bad standard.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@fey: so Bernie Sanders being a useful idiot for Russia and his own hate campaign against Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party weren’t factors at all?
I never said he was the only drag on the Clinton campaign, but he was a big one. And he’s only become more toxic and destructive since then.
SFAW
@artem1s:
Rahm? Was he involved in Bill Clinton’s campaign?
fey
@LongHairedWeirdo: I have to disagree. A motivating sentiment of a huge portion of the GOP base is not being misinformed, it is absolute hatred and racial resentment. The basis of the GOP for the last 60 years is “I will hurt myself however badly it takes to hurt minorities worse.”
fey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The Sanders voters who refused to vote for Clinton never would have voted for her in the first place. Sanders was within his rights to stay in the campaign to push Hillary to the left. This was a campaign that everyone thought was going to be a pushover, but it wasn’t due to a variety of factors. Hindsight is 20/20.
I don’t see how Sanders has gotten more toxic and destructive since then especially given that he endorsed Biden, dropped out early and told his supporters and delegates to not attack Biden.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
since no one’s mentioned it though I suspect most here know: MSNBC reporting Biden has made his choice, the announcement “imminent”, and more concretely: A joint, in-person appearance tomorrow, per a very uncomfortable looking Mike Memoji
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@fey:
He sent Nina “Bowl of shit” Turner to what was supposed to be a meeting to promote party unity (the party he refuses to join). Was that stupidity (and as you have gleaned, I do think Bernie’s stupidity is under discussed– the man quite simply is not that bright), willful divisiveness, or some combination of the two? I vote for the first, but the third is also a strong possibility.
terraformer
Campaign finance reform. If Dems (and Rs, for that matter) don’t have to spend so much of their time currying favor with donors – and what the donors want, which is almost always the opposite of what your average Democratic voter wants, then they can be freed to say what they want to say and do what they want to do.
It’s not a panacea, but CFR has always seemed to me to be the primary barrier here.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
It’s Biden-Harris.
If I wasn’t already maxed out to Biden, I would now.
fey
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: If some behind closed doors drama is the worst of it… so what? Sanders endorsed Biden and continued to work to push the ticket left. Doesn’t seem that destructive.
Hell, Harris hit Biden extremely hard on bussing on a debate stage in front of a national audience and she’s the VP pick. I think that was far more damaging than a campaign co chair’s remark.
...now I try to be amused
Malcolm Tucker had this to say about “undecided” voters and televised debates. Never mind that he’s British and a fictional character, it’s worth reading:
The only ones watching are going to be the pointless bastards who already know what they think.
We need to get to the people who only hear the rumours. Bottom feeders who get their views via the quotes from the models in the Daily Star. Van drivers who guard their vast ignorance with concealed Stanley knives. Businessmen who like to expose their self-aggrandising cynicism to schoolgirls on the Thameslink. These dumb motherfuckers are the battlefield. Shitheels. Dunderheads. People who when you talk to them it’s like shouting through six pieces of double glazing. Potheads, cider drinkers, kids who don’t know who Thatcher was and think the NHS grew on a big fucking NHS tree. Wankers. People who count to 11 using their 10 fingers and their head and still get it wrong. This is who we have to get to via the debates. So we are going to have to shout extremely fucking loud.
(Emphasis mine.)
SFBayAreaGal
@fey: I agree with what you are saying 100%
taumaturgo
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: A gratuitous and regrettable attack on a man that is the leader of the liberal wing of the party and his youth movement. In more ways than one, this tirade encapsulates the utter disdain and contempt that some of the conservative corporatist heap upon the minorities that actually represent the party’s future as well as the country. With friends like this, who needs the GOP?
Mo MacArbie
Another factor in the disparity is that Republicans are aiming their message at a majority of the racial majority that is losing that advantage. Fear and anger work pretty well for that. Democrats are aiming their message at everybody else. That calls for inherently more conciliatory, consensus-building politics.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@taumaturgo: you’re not a troll, are you? you’re very genuinely the dimwitted self-parody you present yourself to be here, aren’t you?
Roger Moore
@fey:
I don’t think you can neatly separate these things. Racists soak up misinformation that reinforces their racist beliefs, and politicians who want to exploit them make up that misinformation to manipulate them. And a critical part of that misinformation the racists have been spreading is that there are special, minority-only welfare programs that let minority slackers live high on the hog at public expense. When those voters vote to cut welfare programs, many of them sincerely believe they’re cutting programs that benefit only those lazy minorities.
LongHairedWeirdo
@fey: Well, I don’t want to get in anyone’s face about this, but I’ll ask you to consider this.
A common meme among Republicans is “there is one group that no one cares about: white (optionally: “Christian”) men”.
Okay, let’s assume that’s true as a statement. Does that statement make the tiniest bit of sense *UNLESS* there are other people that are being cared about in objectively helpful ways? Are people complaining that Democrats whine about poor black people more than about poor people in general? Is that why they would say “no one cares about white men!”?
(My fingers keep trying to typo “white men” as “white me”, and, come to think of it, that could be a freudian typo with respect to the attitude, though embarrassing insofar as, yeah, white and male.)
Here’s what I think the common Trump voter is taught by BS artists.
Undocumented workers are pushing down wages and benefits. (There’s no evidence of this – meaning there must be some *massive* other forces at work!)
Affirmative action means minorities have it easy.
We spend huge amounts of money helping the poor. (NB: this is one of those things that’s fact-not-truth. When people say that, invariably they are including Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, all of which are expensive programs, but note that SS and Medicare, while anti-poverty programs, are *not* spending on “the poor” – everyone gets that (if they live long enough). )
Can you see how believing all of those ideas simultaneously leads to voting in the same pattern as if they’re bigots, when bunches of them, if given the straight tell (“the uber-rich are crapping on everyone, minorities, undocumented, and poor folks *especially*”) would change their minds?
Please understand, I’m not saying “there are no bigots”. I’m saying that Hillary was *precisely* correct: sometimes it seems like 50% of Trump’s supporters are bigots of various forms – i.e., deplorable people. The truth is, it really *isn’t* that many, it’s mostly people who’ve been fed a steady diet of lies that cause them to make assumptions that are unsupported by facts.
I guess I’m saying, “we’re still above the crazification factor (I’ve seen that pegged at 25-30%), so some of them are people who are sane, but get their media from through the looking glass.”
I’ll grant you the crazification factor could be 100% bigotry; I’m saying “there are also those who, if given the truth, or even healthy skepticism, might vote Republican, but never Trump.”
Bonnie
Trump has said that he admires Andrew Jackson. Andrew Jackson is usually given credit for coining the phrase: “The only good Indian is a dead Indian.” Recently, Trump talked about Democrats and essentially said the same thing about Democrats–“The only good Democrat is a dead Democrat.” I found this appalling and offensive; yet, he continues with such (to use his own word) “nasty” remarks about Democrats. I wish a Democrat would start to defend us; and, remind Republicans that all Democrats are alive and well, working hard to “whup trump’s gigantic behind.”