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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Perry Mason: Speculation & Spoilers

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79Comments

  1. 1.

    Kent

    I don’t have any real speculation. But I gotta say that lesbian Della Street is completely badass and should be the center of the show, not Perry. Instead she is reduced to propping up the men around her.

  2. 2.

    James E Powell

    NB for anyone not familiar with HBO series of the last five years or so. The penultimate episodes of each season are the ones in which the shit hits the fan, secrets are revealed, lives are forever changed, and six years later, people will still be arguing about them on the internet.

    Or maybe it will be different this time.

  3. 3.

    WaterGirl

    I think Sister Alice has a past with Herman Baggerly.  I think she was misled and mistreated by him and that’s why she connects so strongly with Charlie’s mother, who was perhaps taken advantage of by George Gannon.

  5. 5.

    WaterGirl

    I’m not sure I understand the relationship between Sister Alice and her mother.  Do any of them believe what they are preaching or is the whole church a scam?

    I think Sister Alice believes for sure, but I’m not sure about anyone else.

  6. 6.

    WaterGirl

    @Kent: I didn’t care for the new Della Street at first – she was the one character where it bothered me that she wasn’t like the “real” Della Street

    Though this Della is definitely a better fit for this Perry.

  9. 9.

    Amir Khalid

    Right now, I’m following the splashdown of the SpaceX Dragon Endeavour, live on YouTube. Catch you all later.

  11. 11.

    Kent

    @WaterGirl:@Kent: I didn’t care for the new Della Street at first – she was the one character where it bothered me that she wasn’t like the “real” Della Street.

    Yeah.  I mean NOTHING about the new show is remotely like the old Perry Mason set in the 1950s.  I found that jarring at first.  But it has grown on me.  That is a fascinating time period, especially in the west.  The whole show feels a whole lot more like a serialized version of Chinatown than a revival of Perry Mason.  But it has grown on me.

    I’m really Impressed with how they meticulously capture that time period.  Especially how rural and agricultural CA was in the 1930s.  It’s what the place looked like before half the state turned to suburbs and strip malls.   I’m kind of a history buff but honestly more for time and place than people and events.  What did our landscape and cities used to look like?  That sort of thing.

  12. 12.

    Brachiator

    Saving this thread for later. I’ve just started watching the show. I have mixed feelings, but friends keep saying I should keep watching.

    I like the characters and the acting, and there have been a couple of little tidbits here and there that cause me to say, hmm, I want to see how that develops.

  14. 14.

    NuisanceFactor

    I was thinking Perry might lose this first case, i.e., that’s what drives him going forward.

  17. 17.

    WaterGirl

    @NuisanceFactor: That hadn’t occurred to me at all.  I figured Perry would win his first case and that would be what puts him on the map.  Now I’m wondering…

    But the cop is clearly the bad guy and Paul Drake has to go from cop to investigator, and (at least the old) Perry Mason is always about seeing the bad guys brought to justice, so I still think Perry wins.

    I want to see more of Hamilton Burger!

  18. 18.

    WaterGirl

    I think it’s interesting that this is who HBO has listed as the cast.

    Perry Mason: Speculation & Spoilers

    Charlie’s parents aren’t even listed!

    It seems like Perry Mason, Paul Drake, Della Street and Pete would be the characters in season 2.  But I can’t imagine not keeping Tatiana if they could, but I don’t see how that could work unless she left the church.

  21. 21.

    Wendy

    I tell everyone I know the 4-episode rule. You have to watch 4 episodes of a show before you make a decision to continue. And Perry Mason’s 4th ep definitely delivers, though I preferred the 5th. I feel like Lithgow’s character was designed to keep us interested in the show while it set up the main players. He was great.

    There are lots of predictions that Pete won’t survive, which pains me. I’ve totally fallen in love with him.

    Juliet Rylance is amazing, but then she was amazing on The Knick, so I am not surprised.

    I distrust Lili Taylor, which is an uncomfortable feeling for me. :D I suspect that Sister Alice has a secret baby past and this resurrection thing is her subconscious way of dealing with the trauma.

    I can’t wait until tonight’s episode. I do however resent this show for not having more scenes with Rhys and Maslany together. What a waste.

  22. 22.

    Kent

    @debbie: Ah, so then like real life.

    Yep.  I have 3 daughters and all these old shows keep reminding me of how fucked life used to be for women.  At least times have mostly (but not entirely) changed for the better.   My kids certainly have less constraints.

    For white guys like me, about the only thing different about the 1930s was the clothing.  More suits and ties.  Sobering.

  23. 23.

    WaterGirl

    @Wendy: Where are you seeing predictions about Pete?  That would be distressing.

    Secret baby past makes sense.

    I can’t help but think that for Tatiana, every role must be a letdown after Orphan Black.

  24. 24.

    Kent

    @Wendy:There are lots of predictions that Pete won’t survive, which pains me. I’ve totally fallen in love with him.

    Well, in the 1950s version of Perry Mason, his right hand man and investigator was Paul Drake, not Pete Strickland.  Which is the name of the black cop in the HBO series.  Is that why they are making those predictions?  Thinking that the black Paul Drake will quit the force and become his new investigator?

    If you like the character and actor Shea Whigham then you might check out the HBO series Boardwalk Empire.  He was a main character in that series.

  25. 25.

    WaterGirl

    @Wendy: It was a slow setup, which makes me think that even from the start they hoped it would be more than one season, even though they seemed to bill it as a “one-season 8-episodes and done” show.

  26. 26.

    NuisanceFactor

    @WaterGirl:  I hope you’re right.  It’s just that this show hasn’t felt like the original at all.  I’m not expecting a purely triumphal ending.

  29. 29.

    lofgren

    Maslany in general seems to be wasted. I’m not feeling the Sister Alice character. She seems like a sideshow. Even if she is suddenly revealed to be more important than she has been up until now, it’s not like Maslany got a lot of really great scenes to act out. A few here or there, but nothing a lesser actress couldn’t have handled.

    It’s seeming more and more like this was a scheme by the church accountant to get more control of the land that Baggerly is developing, but I am still at a complete loss as to how that was supposed to work. There are so many white collar ways of stealing land that I find it odd that somebody would resort to kidnapping a baby. Even if the baby was killed by accident, that should have occurred to somebody as one of the obvious risks. I know that criminals don’t typically commit crimes with the expectation that they’re going to get caught, but why risk a death penalty when you could probably spend ten minutes with a real estate attorney and find a way to stiff Baggerly that is more likely to succeed, less likely to be found out, involves fewer people, and risks at most a fine for improper business practices? Either there is a still a big piece of the puzzle that’s missing, or the criminals in this story are universally stupid.

  30. 30.

    WaterGirl

    @lofgren: Do you think Charlie’s mother was in on the kidnapping scheme with George Gannon and something went horribly wrong?

    When I consider that possibility, I can’t imagine how the 4th man (detective) would have been involved.

    But Charlie’s mother kept making those phone calls, so then I try to figure out how/why that would have been, unless she was calling for emotional support.

    I think there’s a big piece missing, which I imagine we will find out about tonight.

  31. 31.

    NuisanceFactor

    @WaterGirl: That was my first comment here.  I didn’t even look for the Reply button until typing in @WaterGirl didn’t work.  :)  Thanks!

  33. 33.

    Xantar

    The script really didn’t do a good job laying out the conspirators and how the land deal worked. In the most recent episode, some investigator would find something and tell it to Perry who would then perk up as if a smoking gun had just been revealed. I had to go read forums to figure out what the hell was going on, and I wasn’t the only one.

    Contrast this with Watchmen which had an intricate plot spanning across decades of an alternate universe and had to tie in with the original graphic novel to boot. That was perfectly understandable and coherent on first viewing. 

    This is a show with the best cast imaginable and some of the best set design I’ve ever seen. And it’s getting let down by terrible writing. I hope they get better writers next season.

  34. 34.

    lofgren

    @WaterGirl: I still think that the mother was tricked somehow. If she thought her child was safe the entire time, she would have to be an amazing actress to convince her husband and father-in-law that she really was distraught, and we haven’t seen a manipulative side to her yet. One would hope that if he had actually accidentally murdered the child of the woman he loved, Gannon would have responded differently.

    My theory of the crime:

    1. Baggerly’s son promised that he was good for his gambling debts because of his rich father.
    2. Gannon, who was an ex-employee of the same underground casino where the son gambled, heard about this, possibly because his former employee tasked him with verifying it.
    3. The church accountant also found out, either through his own connections to organized crime or from Gannon asking around the church. We know that the accountant has some mob connections, because he was tied to the same Polish kidnapping ring that Gannon was. The kidnappers were working as Pinkertons at the time, but still this seems like an absurd coincidence.
    4. The mob and the accountant decided to work together to accomplish their goals. The accountant wanted Baggerly pushed out of the church so that he could control the new land development. The mob wanted their debts paid and maybe a little extra on top.
    5. (Even though the church obviously makes a lot of money, which the accountant was embezzling, Sister Alice is unpredictable and the land would be reliable. The accountant had already arranged for his friend to buy a huge parcel of land for $1 so that Baggerly could not proceed with the development until the accountant had pushed him out.)
    6. The accountant calls in his old Pinkerton buddies, who are now working as a kidnapping ring (in Philadelphia, if I recall?). The connection between Gannon and the kidnappers was always tenuous. It was just supposed that he somehow knew them through the Asian gang that he worked for, even though I would tend to doubt that Asian gangs in LA had a lot of contact with Polish gangs in PA in the 1930s. They also bring on the cop.
    7. The accountant’s needs are not met if Baggerly simply pays the fee. He NEEDS Baggerly’s past to be exposed by an investigation so that he can use it to to push Baggerly out of the church. He kills the baby and stitches the eyes open.
    8. The car gets spotted during the getaway, so they send the cop to clean up the kidnapping crew.

    Problems with this theory: it requires Gannon to be suave enough to seduce the mother, which from the description we have of him does not sound very plausible, and it requires everybody involved to be morons.

    From the beginning they have implied that the eye-stitching was a woman’s touch, which means that it could go even higher than the accountant. It could be that Sister Alice’s mother was the one who actually killed the baby in order to push Baggerly out. Since she leads the choir, she would have been better positioned to recruit Gannon to seduce Charlie’s mother and maybe even guide him in that endeavor. However from what we’ve seen of her, she seems too smart for that. If she had gotten involved with this scheme, I think it would have been much more successful.

  35. 35.

    Jean

    In the original Perry Mason, he did lose a few cases. It’s possible Mason could lose this one, but win or lose, justice will still be served. And the actor has said that justice isn’t black or white or follow the law as such. Anyway, a win or a loss will drive the character forward.

  37. 37.

    WaterGirl

    @Xantar:

    The script really didn’t do a good job laying out the conspirators and how the land deal worked. In the most recent episode, some investigator would find something and tell it to Perry who would then perk up as if a smoking gun had just been revealed. I had to go read forums to figure out what the hell was going on, and I wasn’t the only one.

    I have to agree on that.  With only two episodes left, it seems like I should have a better understanding of the church, and the land deal, and how everything fits together.

  38. 38.

    WaterGirl

    @lofgren:

    We didn’t get as much discussion here as I had hoped – I may have to check out some forums.

    Which Perry Mason forums to you read?  Would love it if you could link to them.

  40. 40.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @WaterGirl:  I love Pete, and really perked up in Chapter 5 when Justin Kirk appeared.  I’ve loved Justin Kirk since Weeds. And I agree John Lithgow has carried this show until his demise.

    I have to admit the women in this generally leave me cold except Della Street, who is a great character (I love that she is a lesbian) and played well, and Lili Taylor as Sister Alice’s mother, who is wonderful as always

    We are also watching City of Angels, set in the same location and time period, and the contrastsand similarities are fascinating.  Sister Molly is very different from Sister Alice, and her mother also different, but quite believable as an old battleax.

  42. 42.

    James E Powell

    I don’t recall much of the Perry Mason TV series, though I know I saw a few episodes. For those who know it, did Perry Mason have a dark side?

    I’m glad they were able to take care of his transition to lawyer without wasting time.

    Not surprised that Della Street’s role is larger and different than it was back in the day. This is, after all, the 21st century.

  43. 43.

    Craig

    @WaterGirl: I’m not sure what Sister Alice believes. I see her as flirting with Perry sometimes, the boardroom scene where he’s asking them about Gannon, and it seems like she wants to spread her wings and fly. There’s a documentary called Marjoe about a kid who grew up as a revival preacher and became Marjoe Gortner a Hollywood B actor and hanger about. He shows the documentary crew the secrets behind scamming evangelicals and sits in on a revival. It’s amazing to watch him turn it on and off. I’m reading a ton into it but that’s where I see Sister Alice; having her own rebirth after a life inside the church.

  44. 44.

    Lofgren

    @Craig: I think the resurrection is subconsciously a test for Sister Alice. If it works, then she really is hearing the voice of god. If it doesn’t, then she knows once and for all that the voices are only the result of her epilepsy, and the church is ruined and thus she is free from both her mother and the expectations that have been placed upon her. I think she suspects that her mother has been lying to her about her visions in order to profit off of her, so in a way failing to raise the child would be a greater embarrassment and exposure of her mother’s betrayals than of Alice’s.

  47. 47.

    Matt

    @WaterGirl: The real life inspiration for Maslany’s character was allegedly kidnapped but was suspected of faking it. They may adapt that for the second season.  Two consecutive plots involving a kidnapping is repetitive, though.

  50. 50.

    WaterGirl

    @Lofgren: The conflict last week between Sister Alice and her mother came as kind of a surprise to me.  The power dynamic between them definitely gets upended in that scene last week.

    If I have one criticism of this Perry Mason, it’s that they have kept us in the dark too much.  Part of the deal with mysteries is that we get to pat ourselves on the back for the stuff we have figured out.

  52. 52.

    Ned F.

    Having never really watched the original series, though my parents were fans, I’m thoroughly enjoying the new Perry. It got me thinking of the history of the Evangelical churches in the U.S., and their mix of true believers and grifters. Sister Alice is based on a real preacher from the series’ time period too.   I like how Perry Mason got his law degree in two weeks and never went to law school.

    https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a32999151/perry-mason-preacher-sister-alice-aimee-semple-mcpherson-true-story/#:~:text=Perry%20Mason's%20Sister%20Alice%20Is,Who%20Had%20a%20Mysterious%20Story&text=emergency%20funds%20to%20cover%20three%20months%20of%20expenses.

  53. 53.

    James E Powell

    @WaterGirl:

    For some reason – not sure if it’s COVID related – this series hasn’t really caught on with my usual friends who into prestige TV. I am deeply disappointed in all of them.

    I listen to the podcast Perry Mason – BleedTV, which does each episode right after it ends. Another podcast, Crime Writers on True Crime, had a good first episode overview & commentary.

  54. 54.

    James E Powell

    @Ned F.:

    Slight correction. Perry did not need to go to law school. In the olden days – and still in California and a few other states – law school was not the only way to become a lawyer. The wannabe would serve as a clerk/apprentice and the lawyer they served would certify them as good to go. In this show, Della forged EB’s signature on the certification and convinced the assistant DA Burger to help him prep for the bar

    It was a pretty quick turnaround. Nowadays you take the bar in July and get your results just before Thanksgiving.

  56. 56.

    Craig

    @WaterGirl: I love Della. They way they’ve fleshed her out has been fascinating. The way she transformed from away from EB’s style of practice. Dealing with EB’s fuddy duddness, keeping him on track, being pissed at Perry for cutting corners and breaking the law to get to the truth. EB knows that she runs shit, knows he’s lost without her. When we learned she has a girlfriend, it’s a surprising unsurprise. Duh?

    When EB dies the first thing she does is involve Perry in insurance fraud. Then we learn she’s a rich girl who walked away from it all to be her own woman. With EB she saw clear lines between legal and illegal. But doing the law by the book isn’t the same thing as achieving Justice. And Della wants Justice. It was magical to watch her embrace Perry’s mantra of There’s legal and there’s right while she’s Obstructing Justice to achieve Justice. Kent is right. For me, it’s Perry Mason’s name on the shingle, but it’s Della Street’s show.

  59. 59.

    Craig

    @WaterGirl:  I never really watched the Raymond Burr show, so I’m pretty clueless about the characters from there, but that scene where Hamilton Burger shows up and slides into the booth is brilliant, another feather in Della’s cap. When Perry gets to- Oh-you want his job- Burger seems more like- Yeah, but because the DA is a crook, and your client is getting railroaded. Just from that tiny scene it does seem that Burger is here to subvert the system, because that is the only way that Justice can be served here.

  61. 61.

    Lofgren

    When the prosecutor says, “What kind of parent leaves a baby in the next room so they can go have sex?” did anybody else think, “Every parent ever?”

  63. 63.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @James E Powell: It still happens.  In my N CA town, one of the leading women lawyers (now in her 80s, alas), started out as the legal secretary for a local lawyer, passed the bar exam, and voila! Don’t know of anyone doing that way recently, though.

  67. 67.

    MelissaM

    Jumping on the end to say, a coworker has a theory that Mother is behind the kidnapping (for $$ for the church and other shenanigans.) I can see it. I think the kid was killed accidentally (like the ‘nappers were frustrated that he was crying and smothered him – ok, not “accidentally” but not for the purposes of the ransom.)

  68. 68.

    Lofgren

    @MelissaM: I’ve been toying with this theory as well, simply because it would tie all of the subplots together. But I don’t understand what she would get out of it.

  70. 70.

    WaterGirl

    @MelissaM: @Lofgren:

    I would not be shocked if this were true.  I think all the church people except Sister Alice are ruthless, so it wouldn’t shock me.

    It will also not shock me if we discover other baby-related issues in this story, whether it’s a pregnancy or baby that Sister Alice had in the past (someone upthread talked about that possiblity).

  71. 71.

    Lofgren

    @WaterGirl: obviously birth and rebirth are major themes, so it would be more satisfying if there was some personal motivation behind the kidnapping instead of just another California real estate scheme, which is at the root of about 50% of all LA noir stories. But yeah, as you mentioned above, they haven’t done a good job of laying the bread crumbs for any of the plot points really, so it could be almost anything at this point.

  73. 73.

    Jean

    @WaterGirl: As tonight’s episode unfolded, I guesses there’d be no baby in the coffin.  It ends with Sister Alice racing away, and I expect that she will keep running into a new life.

  74. 74.

    WaterGirl

    @Jean: I just finished watching.  So many sad things in tonight’s episode.  I think the worst was at the beginning with young Alice, but also with Pete, and with Alice, and Perry and all the betrayals.

  76. 76.

    James E Powell

    So, unless there is an even twist-ier twist, we now know why the child was kidnapped, who kidnapped him, and how it turned into a murder. We know which key witnesses have been killed and we know who is killing them.

    Is there anyone else involved in the crime that we don’t know about already?

    Is Pete really done with Perry?

    Does Mason lose his house forever?

    Is Alice done with the Radiant Assembly of God? Are they done with her? Is she done with this story?

  77. 77.

    lofgren

    I think it’s going to turn out that Alice’s mother gave the order to Seidel to kidnap the baby. The only person left alive who could implicate her is Ennis, so we’re all set up for our dramatic court room reveal. The proof will be that she was the only person who knew about Baggerly’s secret kid.

  78. 78.

    WaterGirl

    @James E Powell:

    Agree.

    Not sure.

    I hope not.

    I hopte not.

    I think Alice is not done with this story.  She is done with the church except she I think she will likely work with Perry to spill the beans now that she is seeing her mother for what she really is.

    Remember, Alice really cares about Charlie’s mother, so she will work with Perry to help get her cleared.

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