@cain: Its good to have it on Congressional record.
3.
CaseyL
@cain: Maybe more solid information about the theft of, profiteering from, and favoritism regarding PPE shipments…?
4.
SiubhanDuinne
Thanks, Cheryl. CNN and MSNBC are both carrying the hearings, but it’s good to have a dedicated thread in case there’s anything interesting to emerge from them.
5.
Jinchi
Fauci wants to be sure that any vaccine is safe before it’s distributed.
My expectation is that the US will be one of the last countries to vaccinate, not because of safety – Trump will grab at anything he thinks might make him look like the hero who cured the plague – but incompetence. ‘Low quality hires’, as Kay puts it. The people who are put in charge of producing and distributing the vaccine will not know anything about it, have no experience, and be looking for personal profit first and efficient distribution second. It will be a repeat of Kushner’s task force to obtain PPEs and ventilators.
7.
West of the Rockies
My question is this: does Fauci believe Trump did/does actively discourage testing.
8.
hitchhiker
Phase III vaccine trials in the USA, Brazil, and South Africa starting in July. Companies gearing up for mass production the minute the scientists say to pull the trigger. FDA promising that only data will drive the timeline. Dems getting digs in @ trump, Rs saying hindsight is 2020, Fauci admitting that systemic racism is behind the disparity in outcomes.
Visually, it’s striking to see them lined up with their masks on, removing them only to answer questions and putting them back on when they’re done talking. The audio is crap as feeds from homes of congressmembers get piped in for questions.
So far, no one has suggested that it’s not that bad or will magically go away.
ETA, @West of the Rockies, they were asked directly if anyone had ordered them to do fewer tests, and they all said no.
9.
wvng
Just a few minutes ago, while testifying before Congress, Fauci, Redfield, Hahn, and one other said Trump has never asked or directed them to slow down testing.
Via TPM : “President Trump on Tuesday insisted that he wasn’t kidding when he told attendees at his campaign rally over the weekend in Tulsa that he asked his administration to “slow the testing down, please” on the novel coronavirus.
Speaking to reporters outside the White House on Tuesday morning, Trump was pressed on whether he was kidding when he made the claim at his poorly attended rally.
@Jinchi: Fauci said HE WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED if we didn’t make sure of the safety and efficacy before moving forward with a particular vaccine.
DISAPPOINTED! That’s pathetic
How about using a word like UNCONSCIONABLE.
12.
MattF
@wvng: He wasn’t kidding and the people he told to slow down testing did the smart thing and ignored him. It’s clear that happens often in Trumpland. I’d guess that Trump gets pissed off about that sort of thing, but he gets pissed off about a lot of things and has a short attention span. It’s a classic ‘bad boss’ situation.
13.
trollhattan
About that Abbott Labs quick test.
In its own COVID-19 testing policy for labs and commercial manufacturers, the FDA says a diagnostic test should correctly identify at least 95% of positive samples.
But medical professionals are split over the lower 80% threshold for the Abbott and other point-of-care tests’ “sensitivity” – a metric showing how often a test correctly generates a positive result. They are debating whether it’s sufficient, given the risks that an infected person unwittingly spreads COVID-19 after receiving a negative result.
False negatives increase the risk that patients will not self-isolate or exercise other precautions – such as wearing a mask – and make more people sick than if they had had an accurate diagnosis. Evaluations of the Abbott test have been among the most mixed, with some researchers finding that the test has bigger accuracy problems, but others saying it isn’t likely to miss sicker patients.
“There’s no way I would be comfortable missing 2 out of 10 patients,” said Susan Whittier, director of clinical microbiology at NewYork-Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center. Whittier and co-authors found that the Abbott test correctly identified 74% of positive samples compared with a rival test from Roche, another diagnostics giant. A point-of-care test from Cepheid, a rival company, correctly identified 99% of positives. https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article243711587.html#storylink=cpy
Relying on a test that delivers >20% false negatives is malpractice. Of course, this is the test Trump was plugging back in April.
@hitchhiker: Even that question was poorly worded, and required followup. If he didn’t TELL YOU TO SLOW DOWN DIRECTLY, did he take any actions – or FAIL TO TAKE ANY ACTIONS – that slowed down the process?
did he take any actions – or FAIL TO TAKE ANY ACTIONS – that slowed down the process?
A question that Fauci wants to avoid, because the answer is “Trump and all his top people are incompetent. Everything they do slows down the process, so I can’t tell what’s deliberate.”
They were asked if TRUMP ever directed them to do that. Trump directs his administration, and Pence or someone else slows things down, but the answer is still NO as to whether TRUMP TOLD THEM TO SLOW DOWN.
@MattF: Of course testing has been slowed down. It’s nowhere near where it should be, or could be. The answer is in the amount of testing that is being done.
We did not ramp up testing like we needed to. That shouldn’t even be open for discussion.
@WaterGirl: I agree, and it’s worth getting wound up. Fauci is the only one in the federal government that the country can look to for any kind of guidance, and he dropped the ball. He should, upon gaining a reputation for clarity, competence and intelligence, have quit the shitshow taskforce. CNN or MSNBC would have had him under contract in about 15 seconds, and he could have been leading from there, unrestrained by the need to keep Trump happy.
25.
Sab
@Frankensteinbeck: The vaccine is going to be a long while in coming. This promise of vaccine by the end of the year or within a year or two is nonsense. They are never developed that quickly, and with this administration we have scores of vile people interfering in the development process, making bad decisions either from incompetence or in order to put their grubby paws into the till.
If Trump is still president when a vaccine comes out he will be in his second term. The vaccine will probably cost $500 a dose and be available in limited supply only to those of his followers who aren’t anti-vaxers.
26.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl: I thought the question was whether anyone from the administration had directed them to slow down. If the wording was specifically about Trump, my bad.
ETA: Yes, of course, he’s a master at setting things up so he always has maximum plausible deniability.
27.
Fair Economist
@trollhattan: If the Abbott test were the only test available, it might be excusable. But with many other tests of far superior perfomance, it’s inexcusable. The FDA should withdraw approval for such poor tests.
28.
MisterForkbeard
@wvng: I’m willing to bet that Trump told his generals and some other people they should slow down testing, and they just ignored him.
Because we DO know that’s happened before. Mueller’s investigation showed that repeatedly – Trump’s people will ignore him if he’s not dogged about something.
29.
MattF
@WaterGirl: I agree that Trump is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. Period. I agree that he is hoping to be responsible for tens of thousands of additional deaths. It’s awful and stupid and broken, but that’s where we are. If Fauci can lessen the damage done by this damaged and evil man, that, right now, is a good thing, IMO.
30.
piratedan
@WaterGirl: its easy for both Trump and the docs to be correct. Trump could very well have put out the word to slow down testing, but may not have included the docs in his “circle of trust” when making that proclamation and to those he did impart that gem of wisdom could have seen that directive as the potential catastrophe that it is and neglected to relay those directives downstream.
31.
JCJ
@Sab: Sadly, I would also be skeptical of a vaccine promoted by Trump. I am hoping a vaccine is developed in Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc. I am afraid a vaccine developed in the US might have to much Trump influence. Didn’t someone in the administration make a statement that they would release a vaccine that was not safe or effective?
Exactly. March-April were the Wild West days of this and imperfect tools still had value. But relying on this, today, when far better tests are available ensures that one in five infected people will go on confident they’re not infected. They won’t quarantine as they should and contact tracers will not reach out to people they’ve been in contact with.
I think Fauci is afraid that the person who will replace him if he doesn’t walk a very fine line will be a complete Trumper
34.
piratedan
@Fair Economist: tis the nature of POC (point-of-care) testing, as in all things, you want it fast, good or reliable… pick two. As long as fast is part of that criteria, then well you get what you pay for. For locales that no longer have the need or volume that demands a big clinical laboratory, something like the Abbott is better than nothing. Used to be that even regional hospitals used to have rudimentary laboratories to handle their municipalities, but those got pretty much hollowed out by GOP policies and interpretations of the ACA which cut off their federal funding and shut them down.
its easy for both Trump and the docs to be correct. Trump could very well have put out the word to slow down testing, but may not have included the docs in his “circle of trust” when making that proclamation and to those he did impart that gem of wisdom could have seen that directive as the potential catastrophe that it is and neglected to relay those directives downstream.
Shorter piratedan: “Will no one rid me of this turbulent testing?“
@Just One More Canuck: I’m not saying his intentions are bad. I think his decision to stay in place, mostly muzzled. He is the most trusted person in america on this, and he should not allow himself to be muzzled and he should not tone down the truth.
He will be DISAPPOINTED!!!!! if we put out a vaccine that hasn’t been proven to be safe and effect. Disappointed! That’s fucking bullshit.
this administration we have scores of vile people interfering in the development process
America is not the only developed country or the only one that makes vaccines. It’s probably not going to come from us for the reasons you just said. What makes this different from all previous vaccines is that the entire world is Hell-bent on finding a cure. It’s going to happen much, much faster than usual, and there’s potential for a lot of weirdness because China, for example, is likely to be less concerned with safety trials.
38.
patrick II
Kentucky has shut down over 3,000 polling places for today’s primary election, ostensibly because of Covid-19.
Assuming that isn’t entirely their real purpose, how does today’s shutdown affect Kentucky’s races? Is there a close race restricting voting could affect? Is there some important referendum? Is this just practice for November? Is there some other purpose, perhaps to test whether the courts just won’t do anything about it.
I’m in Kentucky. The ballot contained exactly two choices: President and senator. We also have a highly competent Democratic governor who has been doing a damned good job trying to save Kentuckians from themselves. This probably isn’t some GOP ratfuck operation.
No problem at all. Just glad my point got through.
44.
The Moar You Know
I’m sorry, but I think Fauci is letting us all down. Fauci needs to tell the truth to the American people.
Fauci is one more person supporting Trump by thinking that he can mitigate the damage by staying in Trump’s good graces.
@WaterGirl: Agreed. He’s been doing it for months now. I get it, most people are lucky enough to go through life never having to deal with an abuser. But the only way to stop the cycle is to get up, tell the truth, and take your lumps.
Otherwise, you’re just propping them up and allowing them to abuse more people.
CNN or MSNBC would have had him under contract in about 15 seconds, and he could have been leading from there, unrestrained by the need to keep Trump happy.
Would CNN give him access to 1000s of scientists and their labs? The bargain civil servants make is that they get lots of resources, but they have to recognize the authority of the politicians the people elected. Some of those politicians are evil, stupid, or both. Trump may be the most visible, stupid, evil, and dangerous example, but I guarantee that he has been dealing with awful politicians since he started. Sometimes it isn’t even the politician generating the nonsense, but a constituent that has a bug up his butt about some conspiracy theory and the politician just wants to unload him. I worked at the NIH for over 40 years and I saw tons of it. The farther up the ladder you go, the more of your time is spent shielding your staff from as much of the nonsense as you can so they can do the work you want done. You can’t just blow it off, because by law, the politicians have the power. And that is as it should be and that is what civil servants agree to when they take the job. I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that Fauci’s primary motivation isn’t sucking up to Trump, but shielding his Institute and as long as he thinks he can accomplish that, he will stay on.
48.
Kropacetic
@wvng: “I don’t kid, let me make it clear,” Trump said.
That’s a statement we can put some good mileage on.
And TPM has an article on the feds STOPPING their testing on June 30 and turning it over to the states. Texas, Colorado, etc. will lose the federal money that has been keeping their testing sites up and running.
How about a question about that, huh?
And I do not trust Fauci.
50.
Gvg
@The Moar You Know: I doubt he would ever say what you want, the way you want. He is a scientist. He is always careful of his wording. They don’t make angry denunciations of what can’t be proven with repeated trials.
I also think he doesn’t want to change careers to being on Tv all the time giving opinions. He has a crisis of a type he is trained in and becoming a teacher of a public so uneducated in his specialty would be like teaching grade school would be a step down. That actually takes training itself, and not the training he has.
Someone else has to do the public denouncing of non facts from Trump.
i also think that he would lose authority if he left the job. It wouldn’t have the impact you hope. We don’t have as many levers and tools as ideal.
51.
wvng
The hearings have been refreshingly non partisan and serious – until West Virginia’s McKinley came on and started the partisan attacks based on right wing talking points. As a West Virginian by choice I am not amused.
52.
Yutsano
@Frankensteinbeck: My understanding, per a Twitter thread that was posted yesterday, was that even the Republican Secretary of State was behind working with Beshear to encourage mail ballots and early voting as much as possible. So yes there are fewer voting places but much better opportunities for voting that don’t involve standing in line for a few hours. With that simple of a ballot voting shouldn’t take too long. So not a copulation of rodentia. More a deliberate plan to reduce in-person voting because of Covid.
Follow through is not shitforbrains forte. (What is, is anybody’s guess) He is far, far more interested in how he looks. He always does his best, so of course it’s always someone else’s fault. And of course, his best is great! Ok that of course is BS. But he doesn’t have a fucking clue, doesn’t know where to find one, buy one, or even steal one. That stealing one would be his favorite but alas, he doesn’t have a clue how.
Not having a clue is tough!
Look at Geoffrey Berman. He could have let himself be pushed out like the weasels did in the DC (?) district fairly recently, or he could refuse to play their game and let their corruption be totally visible in the light of day.
He did the right thing, and we need more people standing up when it’s hard, not waiting for the equivalent of the storm troopers clearing the way for Trump’s stupid photo op.
Stand up, people. If not now, when?
55.
Omnes Omnibus
@PAM Dirac: Agreed. The question is can he do more good inside even though he is muzzled than he could do outside? We aren’t really in a position to make that call.
56.
glc
When policy has been set, it’s not Dr. Fauci’s job to challenge it in public. He makes a sharp distinction between policy issues and factual issues. He argued in February for strong measures, lost that argument, and then stated on TV in response to a question that they were not yet appropriate. His behavior has been consistent throughout. He doesn’t lie about facts but when there are policy issues and the policy has been set, he supports it – if he wants to oppose set policy in public, he should resign first, but he is pretty resilient. He is clearly willing to be fired, and seems to have been expecting it, but I don’t think we are close to what it would take for him to voluntarily abandon his post.
If he were not prepared to support suboptimal choices I imagine he’d have been long gone from government service (decades ago). For that matter, he made some spectacularly suboptimal choices himself, long ago, as he is well aware.
Whether he would be more effective, going forward, on the outside or the inside seems to me a delicate question. Some day we may get to hear his thinking on that question, in retrospect. But since things will be getting worse in the near term, it seems to me not a bad thing to have him still on the scene.
57.
Elizabelle
NY Times breaking news. LOL. I was expecting this.
That prospect, which would lump American visitors in with Russians and Brazilians as unwelcome, is a stinging blow to American prestige in the world and a repudiation of President Trump’s handling of the virus in the United States, which has more than 2.3 million cases and upward of 120,000 deaths, more than any other country.
58.
Gravenstone
@wvng: Trump asking his administration to slow down testing does not automatically mean he asked any or all of the doctors testifying to slow testing. He could have been ranting to Jared or some other incompetent, for all we know.
He is clearly willing to be fired, and seems to have been expecting it,
The NIH Director (Francis Collins) has authority to fire Fauci. I don’t know Fauci, but I have worked with Collins and he has stood up to politicians before, so I think there is a reasonable chance the Collins would refuse to fire Fauci. Drumf could fire Collins, but it would be interesting to see if the orange shitstain could come up with a replacement that would be willing to fire Fauci. I suspect it wouldn’t be so easy, especially if Fauci continues to stick to only doing the things he has the authority to do. It would be very interesting to know what Fauci and Collins have discussed.
60.
mali muso
@Elizabelle: Can’t blame them. But working in international ed, I can tell ya that these are the times that try our souls. Good luck to us all trying to figure out the future of exchange students, field work, etc.
61.
Sab
@Elizabelle: Glad you are happy. Completely fucks up my retirement plans. I was going to hold off for safety. Now I have to hold off for politics. That could take forever, which is way beyond my lifespan.
And I dislike them calling it Trump’s “handling of the virus” when “Trump’s sabotage” or “Trump’s ineffective response” would be more accurate. Pretending it did not exist for crucial months is a sort of handling, I guess.
@Sab: Not happy, per se. But amused. And that proposed ban — which is in draft form only — will not last forever. But it’s deserved, and I would do the same were I a European.
I am a very polite person. My husband complains that I let people walk on me.
I take absolute glee in being an asshole at the grocery for maskless people. Cut them off. Grab the item they were reaching for. Roll over their toes with my cart. It is warfare, and they declared it first.
64.
Uncle Cosmo
@Elizabelle: Haven’t read the article (FTFNYT paywall, may Pinche Sulzberger rot in hell), but it sounds as if not even a willingness & ability to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival will get a Yank into the EU starting 1 July. Is that going to apply to anyone flying from the US, including EU passport holders – or will they get to do the quarantine routine upon return? I’d guess the latter, because otherwise transatlantic air travel would just … shut … down …
Just stop. “Expecting” something to happen is not the same as being happy about it. I doubt anyone here is happy about it – but many will consider it deserved. Including some regular transatlantic flyers like me who’ve already had planned travel cancelled.
Completely fucks up my retirement plans.
Care to elaborate? Hard to envision how a delay of 12-24 months in skedaddling across the Pwnd – because that’s probably what it’ll come down to – constitutes a “complete fuck-up” of plans.
66.
Bruce K
@Elizabelle: I saw that too, and it pisses me off to a massive degree.
I’m separated from people I care deeply about because of travel restrictions, and I was desperately looking forward to the most important person in my life being able to come to Greece and visit me at some point during the summer. Now that’s trashed if the report is accurate.
And it’s not the coronavirus I’m mad at; it’s entirely Trump and his enablers in the 21st-century GOP, whose lust for power at all costs led to mismanagement of the health crisis in ways that kids will be aghast at centuries from now when they read their history books.
This makes it very, very personal: I want to live long enough to make a pilgrimage to the prison cell where Donald Trump died, and spit on the grave of Mitch McConnell.
67.
CaseyL
It occurred to me years ago that the GOP, looking at the gap in quality of life between red and blue states, would decide what they really wanted was everyone to be as badly off as the red states, rather than lift them up to be as good as the blue. “The GOP wants the whole country to be Mississippi,” I said.
I had no idea how prescient that comment was. The GOP wants the whole US to be Mississippi: ignorant, mean, poor, and unable to travel anywhere to see what a civilized country looks like.
Nope, Good and reliable are the same in this case. Good, fast, cheap, pick two — is the way I learned it in systems analysis and design work. But close enough for the discussion.
69.
Betty
I just heard a crazy rant from Kasie Hunt on MSNBC about the hearing, concluding that everything is the fault of Congress who is not doing anything. Besides how dare they criticize media for spending so much time talking about Trump’s tweets. They put themselves in this position and now they have to live with it. What?!? No distinction between Dems’ work in the House and McConnell’s refusal to move any legislation. That was weird.
Welcome to the club. I turn 71 very shortly and I’m still working, was hoping to save a bit more for retirement next year but my very reasonable goal is going to be hard to get close to. That American dream keeps moving just out of reach.
cain
I’m not sure what will be revealed that we don’t already know?
schrodingers_cat
@cain: Its good to have it on Congressional record.
CaseyL
@cain: Maybe more solid information about the theft of, profiteering from, and favoritism regarding PPE shipments…?
SiubhanDuinne
Thanks, Cheryl. CNN and MSNBC are both carrying the hearings, but it’s good to have a dedicated thread in case there’s anything interesting to emerge from them.
Jinchi
Fauci wants to be sure that any vaccine is safe before it’s distributed.
Best of luck convincing Trump on that on Doctor.
Frankensteinbeck
@Jinchi:
My expectation is that the US will be one of the last countries to vaccinate, not because of safety – Trump will grab at anything he thinks might make him look like the hero who cured the plague – but incompetence. ‘Low quality hires’, as Kay puts it. The people who are put in charge of producing and distributing the vaccine will not know anything about it, have no experience, and be looking for personal profit first and efficient distribution second. It will be a repeat of Kushner’s task force to obtain PPEs and ventilators.
West of the Rockies
My question is this: does Fauci believe Trump did/does actively discourage testing.
hitchhiker
Phase III vaccine trials in the USA, Brazil, and South Africa starting in July. Companies gearing up for mass production the minute the scientists say to pull the trigger. FDA promising that only data will drive the timeline. Dems getting digs in @ trump, Rs saying hindsight is 2020, Fauci admitting that systemic racism is behind the disparity in outcomes.
Visually, it’s striking to see them lined up with their masks on, removing them only to answer questions and putting them back on when they’re done talking. The audio is crap as feeds from homes of congressmembers get piped in for questions.
So far, no one has suggested that it’s not that bad or will magically go away.
ETA, @West of the Rockies, they were asked directly if anyone had ordered them to do fewer tests, and they all said no.
wvng
Just a few minutes ago, while testifying before Congress, Fauci, Redfield, Hahn, and one other said Trump has never asked or directed them to slow down testing.
Via TPM : “President Trump on Tuesday insisted that he wasn’t kidding when he told attendees at his campaign rally over the weekend in Tulsa that he asked his administration to “slow the testing down, please” on the novel coronavirus.
Speaking to reporters outside the White House on Tuesday morning, Trump was pressed on whether he was kidding when he made the claim at his poorly attended rally.
“I don’t kid, let me make it clear,” Trump said. “. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-i-dont-kid-slowing-covid-19-testing-tulsa-rally
So which is true?
SiubhanDuinne
@hitchhiker:
So does this mean Trump was lying? Let me haul my shocked face out of mothballs.
WaterGirl
@Jinchi: Fauci said HE WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED if we didn’t make sure of the safety and efficacy before moving forward with a particular vaccine.
DISAPPOINTED! That’s pathetic
How about using a word like UNCONSCIONABLE.
MattF
@wvng: He wasn’t kidding and the people he told to slow down testing did the smart thing and ignored him. It’s clear that happens often in Trumpland. I’d guess that Trump gets pissed off about that sort of thing, but he gets pissed off about a lot of things and has a short attention span. It’s a classic ‘bad boss’ situation.
trollhattan
About that Abbott Labs quick test.
Relying on a test that delivers >20% false negatives is malpractice. Of course, this is the test Trump was plugging back in April.
WaterGirl
@hitchhiker: Even that question was poorly worded, and required followup. If he didn’t TELL YOU TO SLOW DOWN DIRECTLY, did he take any actions – or FAIL TO TAKE ANY ACTIONS – that slowed down the process?
Cheryl Rofer
Some good technical questions and answers, particularly from Fauci.
Frankensteinbeck
@WaterGirl:
A question that Fauci wants to avoid, because the answer is “Trump and all his top people are incompetent. Everything they do slows down the process, so I can’t tell what’s deliberate.”
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: I don’t think it means that at all.
They were asked if TRUMP ever directed them to do that. Trump directs his administration, and Pence or someone else slows things down, but the answer is still NO as to whether TRUMP TOLD THEM TO SLOW DOWN.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: I’m sorry, but I think Fauci is letting us all down. Fauci needs to tell the truth to the American people.
Fauci is one more person supporting Trump by thinking that he can mitigate the damage by staying in Trump’s good graces.
WaterGirl
It might almost appear that I am wound up about this.
MattF
@SiubhanDuinne: It means the public health officials are probably lying, and that testing has not been slowed down. Which, on balance, is good news.
geg6
@WaterGirl:
I totally agree. I’ve been feeling that way for a while now.
SiubhanDuinne
@SiubhanDuinne:
FWIW, MSNBC dumped out in favour of Mrs. Greenspan, but at the moment the hearings are still live on CNN.
WaterGirl
@MattF: Of course testing has been slowed down. It’s nowhere near where it should be, or could be. The answer is in the amount of testing that is being done.
We did not ramp up testing like we needed to. That shouldn’t even be open for discussion.
gkoutnik
@WaterGirl: I agree, and it’s worth getting wound up. Fauci is the only one in the federal government that the country can look to for any kind of guidance, and he dropped the ball. He should, upon gaining a reputation for clarity, competence and intelligence, have quit the shitshow taskforce. CNN or MSNBC would have had him under contract in about 15 seconds, and he could have been leading from there, unrestrained by the need to keep Trump happy.
Sab
@Frankensteinbeck: The vaccine is going to be a long while in coming. This promise of vaccine by the end of the year or within a year or two is nonsense. They are never developed that quickly, and with this administration we have scores of vile people interfering in the development process, making bad decisions either from incompetence or in order to put their grubby paws into the till.
If Trump is still president when a vaccine comes out he will be in his second term. The vaccine will probably cost $500 a dose and be available in limited supply only to those of his followers who aren’t anti-vaxers.
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl: I thought the question was whether anyone from the administration had directed them to slow down. If the wording was specifically about Trump, my bad.
ETA: Yes, of course, he’s a master at setting things up so he always has maximum plausible deniability.
Fair Economist
@trollhattan: If the Abbott test were the only test available, it might be excusable. But with many other tests of far superior perfomance, it’s inexcusable. The FDA should withdraw approval for such poor tests.
MisterForkbeard
@wvng: I’m willing to bet that Trump told his generals and some other people they should slow down testing, and they just ignored him.
Because we DO know that’s happened before. Mueller’s investigation showed that repeatedly – Trump’s people will ignore him if he’s not dogged about something.
MattF
@WaterGirl: I agree that Trump is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. Period. I agree that he is hoping to be responsible for tens of thousands of additional deaths. It’s awful and stupid and broken, but that’s where we are. If Fauci can lessen the damage done by this damaged and evil man, that, right now, is a good thing, IMO.
piratedan
@WaterGirl: its easy for both Trump and the docs to be correct. Trump could very well have put out the word to slow down testing, but may not have included the docs in his “circle of trust” when making that proclamation and to those he did impart that gem of wisdom could have seen that directive as the potential catastrophe that it is and neglected to relay those directives downstream.
JCJ
@Sab: Sadly, I would also be skeptical of a vaccine promoted by Trump. I am hoping a vaccine is developed in Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc. I am afraid a vaccine developed in the US might have to much Trump influence. Didn’t someone in the administration make a statement that they would release a vaccine that was not safe or effective?
trollhattan
@Fair Economist:
Exactly. March-April were the Wild West days of this and imperfect tools still had value. But relying on this, today, when far better tests are available ensures that one in five infected people will go on confident they’re not infected. They won’t quarantine as they should and contact tracers will not reach out to people they’ve been in contact with.
i.e., This is how caseloads continue going up.
Just One More Canuck
@WaterGirl:
I think Fauci is afraid that the person who will replace him if he doesn’t walk a very fine line will be a complete Trumper
piratedan
@Fair Economist: tis the nature of POC (point-of-care) testing, as in all things, you want it fast, good or reliable… pick two. As long as fast is part of that criteria, then well you get what you pay for. For locales that no longer have the need or volume that demands a big clinical laboratory, something like the Abbott is better than nothing. Used to be that even regional hospitals used to have rudimentary laboratories to handle their municipalities, but those got pretty much hollowed out by GOP policies and interpretations of the ACA which cut off their federal funding and shut them down.
SiubhanDuinne
@piratedan:
Shorter piratedan: “Will no one rid me of this turbulent testing?“
WaterGirl
@Just One More Canuck: I’m not saying his intentions are bad. I think his decision to stay in place, mostly muzzled. He is the most trusted person in america on this, and he should not allow himself to be muzzled and he should not tone down the truth.
He will be DISAPPOINTED!!!!! if we put out a vaccine that hasn’t been proven to be safe and effect. Disappointed! That’s fucking bullshit.
Frankensteinbeck
@Sab:
America is not the only developed country or the only one that makes vaccines. It’s probably not going to come from us for the reasons you just said. What makes this different from all previous vaccines is that the entire world is Hell-bent on finding a cure. It’s going to happen much, much faster than usual, and there’s potential for a lot of weirdness because China, for example, is likely to be less concerned with safety trials.
patrick II
Kentucky has shut down over 3,000 polling places for today’s primary election, ostensibly because of Covid-19.
Assuming that isn’t entirely their real purpose, how does today’s shutdown affect Kentucky’s races? Is there a close race restricting voting could affect? Is there some important referendum? Is this just practice for November? Is there some other purpose, perhaps to test whether the courts just won’t do anything about it.
Frankensteinbeck
@patrick II:
I’m in Kentucky. The ballot contained exactly two choices: President and senator. We also have a highly competent Democratic governor who has been doing a damned good job trying to save Kentuckians from themselves. This probably isn’t some GOP ratfuck operation.
schrodingers_cat
So has working for Orange made the great Dr. Fauci, the General Mattis of doctors and researchers?
Sab
@Frankensteinbeck: “America is not the only country….that makes vaccines.”
Good point. I hope you don’t mind the … in my quote of you.
The Thin Black Duke
@WaterGirl: How could you not?
Frankensteinbeck
@Sab:
No problem at all. Just glad my point got through.
The Moar You Know
@WaterGirl: Agreed. He’s been doing it for months now. I get it, most people are lucky enough to go through life never having to deal with an abuser. But the only way to stop the cycle is to get up, tell the truth, and take your lumps.
Otherwise, you’re just propping them up and allowing them to abuse more people.
patrick II
@Frankensteinbeck:
Thanks for your insight.
Kropacetic
What response? Oh, is this referring to a State House?
PAM Dirac
@gkoutnik:
Would CNN give him access to 1000s of scientists and their labs? The bargain civil servants make is that they get lots of resources, but they have to recognize the authority of the politicians the people elected. Some of those politicians are evil, stupid, or both. Trump may be the most visible, stupid, evil, and dangerous example, but I guarantee that he has been dealing with awful politicians since he started. Sometimes it isn’t even the politician generating the nonsense, but a constituent that has a bug up his butt about some conspiracy theory and the politician just wants to unload him. I worked at the NIH for over 40 years and I saw tons of it. The farther up the ladder you go, the more of your time is spent shielding your staff from as much of the nonsense as you can so they can do the work you want done. You can’t just blow it off, because by law, the politicians have the power. And that is as it should be and that is what civil servants agree to when they take the job. I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that Fauci’s primary motivation isn’t sucking up to Trump, but shielding his Institute and as long as he thinks he can accomplish that, he will stay on.
Kropacetic
That’s a statement we can put some good mileage on.
pat
@WaterGirl:
And TPM has an article on the feds STOPPING their testing on June 30 and turning it over to the states. Texas, Colorado, etc. will lose the federal money that has been keeping their testing sites up and running.
How about a question about that, huh?
And I do not trust Fauci.
Gvg
@The Moar You Know: I doubt he would ever say what you want, the way you want. He is a scientist. He is always careful of his wording. They don’t make angry denunciations of what can’t be proven with repeated trials.
I also think he doesn’t want to change careers to being on Tv all the time giving opinions. He has a crisis of a type he is trained in and becoming a teacher of a public so uneducated in his specialty would be like teaching grade school would be a step down. That actually takes training itself, and not the training he has.
Someone else has to do the public denouncing of non facts from Trump.
i also think that he would lose authority if he left the job. It wouldn’t have the impact you hope. We don’t have as many levers and tools as ideal.
wvng
The hearings have been refreshingly non partisan and serious – until West Virginia’s McKinley came on and started the partisan attacks based on right wing talking points. As a West Virginian by choice I am not amused.
Yutsano
@Frankensteinbeck: My understanding, per a Twitter thread that was posted yesterday, was that even the Republican Secretary of State was behind working with Beshear to encourage mail ballots and early voting as much as possible. So yes there are fewer voting places but much better opportunities for voting that don’t involve standing in line for a few hours. With that simple of a ballot voting shouldn’t take too long. So not a copulation of rodentia. More a deliberate plan to reduce in-person voting because of Covid.
Ruckus
@wvng:
Follow through is not shitforbrains forte. (What is, is anybody’s guess) He is far, far more interested in how he looks. He always does his best, so of course it’s always someone else’s fault. And of course, his best is great! Ok that of course is BS. But he doesn’t have a fucking clue, doesn’t know where to find one, buy one, or even steal one. That stealing one would be his favorite but alas, he doesn’t have a clue how.
Not having a clue is tough!
WaterGirl
@The Moar You Know: Agree.
Look at Geoffrey Berman. He could have let himself be pushed out like the weasels did in the DC (?) district fairly recently, or he could refuse to play their game and let their corruption be totally visible in the light of day.
He did the right thing, and we need more people standing up when it’s hard, not waiting for the equivalent of the storm troopers clearing the way for Trump’s stupid photo op.
Stand up, people. If not now, when?
Omnes Omnibus
@PAM Dirac: Agreed. The question is can he do more good inside even though he is muzzled than he could do outside? We aren’t really in a position to make that call.
glc
When policy has been set, it’s not Dr. Fauci’s job to challenge it in public. He makes a sharp distinction between policy issues and factual issues. He argued in February for strong measures, lost that argument, and then stated on TV in response to a question that they were not yet appropriate. His behavior has been consistent throughout. He doesn’t lie about facts but when there are policy issues and the policy has been set, he supports it – if he wants to oppose set policy in public, he should resign first, but he is pretty resilient. He is clearly willing to be fired, and seems to have been expecting it, but I don’t think we are close to what it would take for him to voluntarily abandon his post.
If he were not prepared to support suboptimal choices I imagine he’d have been long gone from government service (decades ago). For that matter, he made some spectacularly suboptimal choices himself, long ago, as he is well aware.
Whether he would be more effective, going forward, on the outside or the inside seems to me a delicate question. Some day we may get to hear his thinking on that question, in retrospect. But since things will be getting worse in the near term, it seems to me not a bad thing to have him still on the scene.
Elizabelle
NY Times breaking news. LOL. I was expecting this.
The E.U. is prepared to bar American travelers when it reopens borders July 1 because the U.S. has not controlled the virus, according to draft lists.
Tuesday, June 23, 2020 1:30 PM EST
That prospect, which would lump American visitors in with Russians and Brazilians as unwelcome, is a stinging blow to American prestige in the world and a repudiation of President Trump’s handling of the virus in the United States, which has more than 2.3 million cases and upward of 120,000 deaths, more than any other country.
Gravenstone
@wvng: Trump asking his administration to slow down testing does not automatically mean he asked any or all of the doctors testifying to slow testing. He could have been ranting to Jared or some other incompetent, for all we know.
PAM Dirac
@glc:
The NIH Director (Francis Collins) has authority to fire Fauci. I don’t know Fauci, but I have worked with Collins and he has stood up to politicians before, so I think there is a reasonable chance the Collins would refuse to fire Fauci. Drumf could fire Collins, but it would be interesting to see if the orange shitstain could come up with a replacement that would be willing to fire Fauci. I suspect it wouldn’t be so easy, especially if Fauci continues to stick to only doing the things he has the authority to do. It would be very interesting to know what Fauci and Collins have discussed.
mali muso
@Elizabelle: Can’t blame them. But working in international ed, I can tell ya that these are the times that try our souls. Good luck to us all trying to figure out the future of exchange students, field work, etc.
Sab
@Elizabelle: Glad you are happy. Completely fucks up my retirement plans. I was going to hold off for safety. Now I have to hold off for politics. That could take forever, which is way beyond my lifespan.
Elizabelle
@mali muso: You are in the thick of it, for sure.
And I dislike them calling it Trump’s “handling of the virus” when “Trump’s sabotage” or “Trump’s ineffective response” would be more accurate. Pretending it did not exist for crucial months is a sort of handling, I guess.
@Sab: Not happy, per se. But amused. And that proposed ban — which is in draft form only — will not last forever. But it’s deserved, and I would do the same were I a European.
Sab
@Elizabelle: Not knocking you.
I am a very polite person. My husband complains that I let people walk on me.
I take absolute glee in being an asshole at the grocery for maskless people. Cut them off. Grab the item they were reaching for. Roll over their toes with my cart. It is warfare, and they declared it first.
Uncle Cosmo
@Elizabelle: Haven’t read the article (FTFNYT paywall, may Pinche Sulzberger rot in hell), but it sounds as if not even a willingness & ability to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival will get a Yank into the EU starting 1 July. Is that going to apply to anyone flying from the US, including EU passport holders – or will they get to do the quarantine routine upon return? I’d guess the latter, because otherwise transatlantic air travel would just … shut … down …
Uncle Cosmo
Just stop. “Expecting” something to happen is not the same as being happy about it. I doubt anyone here is happy about it – but many will consider it deserved. Including some regular transatlantic flyers like me who’ve already had planned travel cancelled.
Care to elaborate? Hard to envision how a delay of 12-24 months in skedaddling across the Pwnd – because that’s probably what it’ll come down to – constitutes a “complete fuck-up” of plans.
Bruce K
@Elizabelle: I saw that too, and it pisses me off to a massive degree.
I’m separated from people I care deeply about because of travel restrictions, and I was desperately looking forward to the most important person in my life being able to come to Greece and visit me at some point during the summer. Now that’s trashed if the report is accurate.
And it’s not the coronavirus I’m mad at; it’s entirely Trump and his enablers in the 21st-century GOP, whose lust for power at all costs led to mismanagement of the health crisis in ways that kids will be aghast at centuries from now when they read their history books.
This makes it very, very personal: I want to live long enough to make a pilgrimage to the prison cell where Donald Trump died, and spit on the grave of Mitch McConnell.
CaseyL
It occurred to me years ago that the GOP, looking at the gap in quality of life between red and blue states, would decide what they really wanted was everyone to be as badly off as the red states, rather than lift them up to be as good as the blue. “The GOP wants the whole country to be Mississippi,” I said.
I had no idea how prescient that comment was. The GOP wants the whole US to be Mississippi: ignorant, mean, poor, and unable to travel anywhere to see what a civilized country looks like.
J R in WV
@piratedan:
Nope, Good and reliable are the same in this case. Good, fast, cheap, pick two — is the way I learned it in systems analysis and design work. But close enough for the discussion.
Betty
I just heard a crazy rant from Kasie Hunt on MSNBC about the hearing, concluding that everything is the fault of Congress who is not doing anything. Besides how dare they criticize media for spending so much time talking about Trump’s tweets. They put themselves in this position and now they have to live with it. What?!? No distinction between Dems’ work in the House and McConnell’s refusal to move any legislation. That was weird.
Ruckus
@Sab:
Welcome to the club. I turn 71 very shortly and I’m still working, was hoping to save a bit more for retirement next year but my very reasonable goal is going to be hard to get close to. That American dream keeps moving just out of reach.
Ruckus
@JCJ:
You can say it.
Too much trump stench.