House and Senate Democrats unveil their expansive police reform bill wearing Kente cloth handed out by the Congressional Black Caucus pic.twitter.com/vs7eG562YR
— Leigh Ann Caldwell (@LACaldwellDC) June 8, 2020
The bill:
– bans choke holds (How George Floyd died)
– bans no knock warrants in drug searches (how Breonna Taylor died)
– creates a national registry of police bad actors
– requires a national use of force database@SpeakerPelosi calls it a first step. There is more to come— Leigh Ann Caldwell (@LACaldwellDC) June 8, 2020
Per the Washington Post:
Congressional Democrats rallied Monday around broad police reform legislation, urging President Trump and Republicans to rapidly embrace measures aimed at boosting law enforcement accountability, changing police practices and curbing racial profiling…
The Justice in Policing Act of 2020 would ban chokeholds, establish a national database to track police misconduct and prohibit certain no-knock warrants, among other initiatives. The bill, which has more than 200 Democratic co-sponsors, contains several provisions that would make it easier to hold officers accountable for misconduct in civil and criminal court.
Many of the proposals were crafted long ago but are garnering attention now amid the nationwide protests in response to Floyd’s death in police custody last month.
“Never again should the world be subjected to witnessing what we saw on the streets in Minneapolis: the slow murder of an individual by a uniformed police officer,” Rep. Karen Bass (D-Calif.), chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus, said at the outset of a Capitol Hill news conference at which she said the Democratic legislation presents “a bold, transformative vision of policing in America.”
Pelosi promised swift passage of the legislation following hearings in the House and urged Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to take up the legislation soon after it clears her chamber.
“The martyrdom of George Floyd gave the American experience a moment of national anguish as we grieve for the black Americans killed by police brutality today,” Pelosi said, adding that the moment “is being transformed into a movement of national action” and that Trump should not stand in the way of justice…
Some Democrats expressed optimism that Republicans would not be monolithically opposed to the legislation.
“I assume we will have Republican support,” said Bass, a co-architect of the proposal. She said she met last week with the Problem Solvers Caucus, a bipartisan group of centrists, and came away optimistic that some moderate Republicans would support the legislation…
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) said he has already had some discussions with Republicans about the legislation, while Sens. Cory Booker (D-N.J.) and Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.) said they were in talks with GOP lawmakers.
“There are Republicans who are interested in doing something on this topic,” Booker said in an interview with The Washington Post. “I’m not in any way underestimating the challenges we have before us in getting Republicans on this entire bill.”….
As the news conference unfolded, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) tweeted what he called a thank-you message to police officers.
“Democrats want to defund you, but Republicans will never turn our backs on you,” McCarthy wrote.
And, after declining to answer questions about the Democratic proposal, McConnell lashed out at the “outlandish calls” to “abolish the police” in favor of funding other social programs…
So the GOP leadership intends to stand up to defend military-style ‘security forces’ murdering random people with impunity, because… well, because that’s what being a Republican in 2020 really means. Full details at the link.
Of course, the Very Progressive Cosplay Socialists, because they are all about REAL REFORM NOW, had one question: What’s with the kente cloth?
When you raise as much money for the DCCC as the CBC does, you get to tell Nancy Pelosi what scarves to wear.
— Tentin Quarantino (@agraybee) June 8, 2020
Rep. Clyburn has some experience with bad cops, of course, and yet:
On call, Clyburn warned against using defund police rhetoric, and others spoke out too including Cicilline and Bass. AOC, who has previously spoke out in favor of defunding and slashing NYPD budget, urged her colleagues to try to understand the debate and not mock it, per sources https://t.co/QFJCg4YU3P
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) June 8, 2020
Over on the Senate side:
The #JusticeInPolicing includes provisions of my bill to strengthen accountability & transparency over law enforcement use of lethal force by rewarding states that enact laws requiring independent reviews, criminal investigations and, when necessary, prosecutions.
— Tammy Duckworth (@SenDuckworth) June 8, 2020
Once again, Joe Biden is the candidate for the moment:
People are claiming "defund the police" helps Trump. But it can also help Biden. He can unveil the most robust police reform plan in history, and then say, "but don't worry, I'm not like those crazy defund the police people." He's a consensus politician, and he's good at this. https://t.co/Tpa0w7nuLU
— (((Yair Rosenberg))) (@Yair_Rosenberg) June 8, 2020
the same ppl who cry "twitter isn't real life" will see 3 viral videos and say dems in disarray https://t.co/6fFM9820B3
— Steadman™ (@AsteadWesley) June 8, 2020
Speaking of viral videos…
Meghan McCain asks Kamala Harris whether she is “defunding the police,” then proceeds to get schooled by her and Sunny Houston ?? ?? ?? ?? #BlackLivesMatter #TheView pic.twitter.com/DtwyFllUwC
— Madam Auntie Kamala Harris for VP! (@flywithkamala) June 8, 2020
Mary G
Baud
@Mary G: Haha. You come for Big Tea, you best not miss.
Kay
The national registry is right in the federal wheelhouse- they already collect stats nationally so it will be easy to condition funding on compliance. They already do this with public schools. They insist on disparity/equity reporting and schools comply. It’s a good fit and it will matter.
Exregis
Defund the police is as stupid a framing as the Democrats have come up with in a while. So many better choices for what will approximately be the same. Demilitarize the police. Or restore core police functions. Or any number of strong-sounding, Republican-lie-proof designations.
schrodingers_cat
Megan McCain is the poster child for nepotism and white privilege.
gene108
@Mary G:
I don’t think a lot of Americans realize how global the reaction to George Floyd’s murder has been.
Domestic police reform is becoming a diplomatic issue, as well.
gene108
@Exregis:
On the one hand, yeah “defund the police” sounds bad, and should be easily twisted by Republicans.
On the other hand, “defund the police” has gotten people’s attention about not just police reform, but the role expanded social services needs to play to reduce crime rates.
I feel that somehow usual Republican campaign tricks aren’t going to be as effective this year.
Roger Moore
@Exregis:
I think “defund the police” is a reasonable attempt at shifting the Overton Window. It’s an extreme position that more moderate Democrats can then compromise with to achieve a result they wouldn’t have been able to ask for a year ago.
Kay
@gene108:
It always was. “In custody” carries a duty by the custodian. That’s what the word means. If you have taken someone’s ability to protect/defend/flee away that doesn’t mean you start whaling on them or now you “have” them so it’s a fucking free for all. It means you’re responsible for what happens to them. The moment you handcuff him or restrain him he is YOURS. Everything that happens after that is your responsibility. If they don’t want the responsibility they can’t restrain/detain these people.
different-church-lady
Yeash, sure, but WHY WON’T THE DEMOCRATS DO SOMETHING??2?
//
different-church-lady
@Kay: Have you seen the way some people take care of their stuff?
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: It’s funny how those people just never show up in this type of thread.
Barbara
Why does it not surprise me that Meghan McCain asks a question she doesn’t even understand? Good for Harris in turning it back on her.
Roger Moore
@gene108:
I think Black Lives Matter has a lot of international resonance because it has given activists in other countries an excuse to talk about the racism they face.
Hunter Gathers
@Exregis: People with brittle spirits like yourself said the same thing about ‘Black Lives Matter’.
JPL
This has probably been mentioned, but the president is supporting the Buffalo policemen who pushed the 75 year old man. Apparently the man was aiming scanner. WTF is an aiming scanner?
lurkypants
I kinda like “reconstruct the police.”
different-church-lady
@Hunter Gathers: I’ve never been able to find it again, but I remeber TBogg once said something like the worst crime in the liberal book was “using words wrong”.
Mary G
Interesting essay in the LA Times by a white high school girl in Idaho about how even the rubes who believed busloads of Antifa were coming to pillage and loot their little town and came out with guns to defend it say Black Lives Matter.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Democrats, as an organization, did not come up with this. Activists came up with this and it is not their job to come up with slogans designed to protect people’s delicate sensibilities.
That’s the job of top 10,000ish blogs.
Baud
@Exregis:
“Democrats” didn’t invent the phrase.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Just words.
different-church-lady
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Was it activists or Twitivists?
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@different-church-lady: I don’t twit so I don’t know.
Baud
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
The Trump people want it to stick to Democrats. That’s what that’s all about.
@different-church-lady: I don’t know for certain, but I think it was the actual activists.
schrodingers_cat
@different-church-lady: I prefer to call them twits, shorter and more descriptive.
Exregis
@Hunter Gathers: Oh bullshit, Hunter Gathers. You have no idea who or what I am. Of course black lives matter, as do all lives. Every person is a pair of universes: the one we all share and the internal universe we live in from about four years old until we die. And when we die that internal universe dies as well. Every single person is just as important in that second universe as we are.
So cut out the ad hominem, grow up, and try googling what framing means.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I am not sure who came up with it but it was quickly amplified by handles that hate Ds and Obama more than they hate Rs and the Orange One. You know our progressive betters.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Well we certainly don’t have to help them by acting like it’s the party’s position.
Implied: “…that we’re so much better than.”
Kay
@Baud:
The only coverage of Joe Biden has been political media going to Joe Biden and asking him questions about the Trump campaign attacks on him. It is ridiculous and it is not his fault.
I mean, Jesus Christ. Come up with YOUR OWN topic. They are incapable of formulating a question for Joe Biden that wasn’t given to them by the Trump campaign?
Not ONE WORD on health care, in the middle of a fucking pandemic. It’s malpractice.
mrmoshpotato
@Mary G: Haha, I love it when even food/drink manufacturers are all “Fuck your bullshit. We don’t want your business then.”
Mike in NC
“Fix The Cops” is short and to the point.
Baud
@Kay: Agree. The whole “how will the Dems respond to this GOP zinger?!” style of journalism needs to die a slow and painful death.
mrmoshpotato
@schrodingers_cat:
McCain? McCain? Wait, is she John McCain’s daughter? ?
Kay
I think we can safely predict the word cloud that will come out of the 2020 election – in 2016 it was “emails” and in 2020 it will be “Hunter Biden, Reade and defund the police”.
They simply refuse to do any coverage of our candidates other than carrying Trump campaign attacks TO our candidates and asking them about the attack. That isn’t “covering the candidate”. It’s June. They have 5 months left. They’re not going to get it done. They will fail at this, again.
Barbara
@Mary G: I am one of the least optimistic people on the planet. I think it might be genetic, something I inherited from my father. So I am not even 5% of the way to declaring hope. But, one thing people miss about violence or the threat of violence is that it doesn’t take a lot of it to have a visceral impact. This is true for dictators using it to keep a population in line, abusers trying to control their spouse or children, and so on. It’s like even a single episode can mark your brain. So the point is, you don’t need much exposure to the shock of violent overreach to have a profound impact.
One time, more than 10 years ago I had to stop for a roadblock around the White House, and I rolled my window down and asked the officer, federal, not DC — politely, I swear — if I could turn around and just take an alternative route. Thereafter occurred one of the most surreal events in my life with him not too subtly threatening to shoot me if I made another move. I felt like I was in a hostage situation, and I carefully asked him what I had done to make him so angry, that I had asked, and when he said no, I just pulled the car over to read the paper, that I had given him my ID when he asked, and so on.
Will never forget it. My perception of police changed instantly, on a dime. It was just insane.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Time for a trip to the veterinarian.
Eural Joiner
I still like #NewBlue – short, ryhmes, optimistic, easy to chant :)
Chyron HR
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
T minus five days to “Fuck you I’m voting for Trump again.”
Betty Cracker
Bernie Sanders ain’t for defunding the police:
AOC’s take as quoted in a tweet up top makes sense:
Hear what protesters are saying. Address their concerns, which isn’t the same as adopting their framing. Don’t alienate them by calling them stupid or naive. Sounds like smart politics to me.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Chyron HR: T-minus your whole life ago til you’re a fucking idiot.
ETA: Sorry, lying fucking idiot.
Mike in NC
We finally got the form letter from the White House bragging about the stimulus money Fat Bastard hopes to bribe people with to get their vote, complete with the chickenscratch ‘signature’. The great irony is that when you turn the memo over, it has a Spanish translation.
H.E.Wolf
Based on our new visitor’s ‘nym, I’m assuming he’s King George from “Hamilton”, complete with the catchy British Invasion tune and the affectionate manner. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwFNeTGcVoI
mrmoshpotato
@Baud: Mmmmmmm Zingers. The coconut ones are the best.
Patricia Kayden
rp
@Mary G: Very interesting. For the last couple years I’ve gone back and forth between thinking Obama was a dead cat bounce as the country declines, vs. Trump as a dead cat bounce as the country improves. The reaction to Floyd’s death over the last couple weeks has made me a little more optimistic and willing to embrace the latter view.
Kay
@Mary G:
I think it’s because in areas where there are no black people police treat poor white people differently (worse) than they do middle class white people. I now see young white men who film traffic stops, etc. I think that came out of BLM.
One thing I haven’t seen discussed (but I have heard complaints about forever) is the flip side of police focus. People complain about disparate targeting by police but they ALSO complain that police don’t help them when they need help, or not to the extent that they help when “a homeowner” calls, etc. They say here “they won’t come out” for a civil complaint – noise or petty break ins. They think police both target them for infractions and also don’t protect them when they are vicitimized by others.
I wish BLM would talk about that part. Maybe they have. They’re entitled to police services in their neighborhoods. The helpful part of policing. They should get that. I get it. If I call the police with a complaint they treat it like customer service because I live in a better off neighborhood and am a lawyer. That should be true for everyone.
Barbara
@Kay: One of the dirty little secrets of local community policing that came out of Ferguson Missouri was the extent to which municipalities try to make the police pay for themselves through traffic and code enforcement. Ferguson drew a significant percentage of its budget from this kind of “petty” enforcement — which is not so petty if you can’t afford the fines or bail if it results in you being incarcerated. This tactic might predominate in majority minority communities, but it is by no means limited to them. So yes, there are no doubt white people on the fringes of respectability let’s say who are harassed by the police in similar ways.
Kay
I would be interested in those stats. We have the police abuse, but does it work the other way too? Do state troopers provide less assistance to black motorists who break down? If I’m in a black neighborhood and I call about a loud neighbor or an obessively barking dog or a stolen bicycle do I get the same police services a white person might get?
That would be a powerful argument, if true. Not only are they excessively targeted by police they also don’t get the basic police services they’re paying for. That argument is impossible for conservatives to attack. Just spring it on them. Trump is dumb. It’ll take him a week just to process it :)
Orson
@Roger Moore: I like your insight. Thanks.
hueyplong
Jarvanka would like a word about the concept of M McCain being the poster child for white privilege and nepotism.
rikyrah
@Exregis:
It’s not the Democrats.
It’s the purity leftists who came up with that bullshyt
Defund the police
Kay
“We demand attentive police protection for our homes and property, like white people get!”
Oh, someone please do it. It’s a valid complaint! What’s the Trump response? “No, all you get is a knee on your neck”?
Barbara
@Kay: Well, the theory behind community policing was that the people most likely to call the police were the least likely to be in neighborhoods with relatively higher crime rates. So the idea was to place police in neighborhoods where crime was occurring. The point being that many people don’t call the police for help — whether it’s because they don’t expect to be helped or prior experience has taught them they are more likely to be harmed than helped, I don’t know.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Man, if only there were another way governments could collect money…
McCain has seniority, so if Jarvanka want to be the poster children for nepotism, they’re gonna have to work hard and earn it.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: I agree. The part that I don’t like is “urging her colleagues” not to mock it. Unless Republicans are now colleagues, I haven’t seen a single democrat mocking the debate or the protesters.
Kay
@Barbara:
Right, but “don’t kill me” is a very low bar for public servants. They’re entitled to ordinary police services. To Protect and Serve. They shouldn’t have to choose between “police who attack me” and “no police”. The vast majority of them are law abiding and deserve police services and protections for their own property and families.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: I know the type. They come up with purity tests to trip up the elected Ds. They say they want the same things that we do but their actions help the Rs more than the Ds. They are more vocal in their criticism of President Obama and Nancy Pelosi than they are of the Orange President or Moscow Mitch.
They boil everything down to economics and hijack social justice issues to suit their agenda. Unfortunately a lot of well meaning people fall for this BS
Early in the Orange regime it was Abolish Ice, then it was M4A during the primary season, Defund the Police is the latest in that tradition.
Black Lives Matter —> To Defund the Police
One example of this is Anand Girdharadas. Its always billionaires this and billionaires that.
I suspect that’s because he is a millionaire. He used to cover India for the NYT and even wrote a book about being a child of Indian immigrants who Columbused to India to give insights to folks back home about the exotic land of his parents origin. But the man was mum about all the horrible things and the convulsions India went through since Modi was elected a year ago. He is such a phony.
Roger Moore
@Barbara:
I think there are two complementary strategies we need to adopt to help with this problem:
WaterGirl
@H.E.Wolf: Our new visitor has been commenting with this nym since the beginning of 2020, on any number of topics. So while I agree that “defund” is maybe not the best framing, I don’t understand all the angst around the word at the moment.
It seems to me that Dems are doing just fine navigating the questions about “defunding” and are choosing excellent words in their responses. Everywhere I turn, people are talking in a matter of fact way about using a different word, with many suggestions about what that word could be.
Just since last night, to name a few: Biden, Kamala, the Obama bros on Pod Save America, the fellow running for DA in L.A. (I think) who was interviewed at the end of the show.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodingers_cat: Ivanka Trump objects!
Kay
It doesn’t get as much attention as it should but the public should know Betsy DeVos regularly flouts federal law. She’s a repeat offender- a frequent flier. It’s gotten worse with the CARES Act but she’s been doing it for years. What that means is the public have to find lawyers and sue her, just to get her to comply with laws. Not to break them. Even then she’ll sometimes refuse to follow US law and has to be held in contempt.
WaterGirl
@Kay:
I can’t point to any particular sources, but you may be happy to know that I have seen that part discussed several times in the past week, and not just on Balloon Juice.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
I think the conservative response will be to complain that black people want it both ways. On the one hand, they complain the police are too quick to enforce, but on the other they complain the police don’t come when they want them. They need to make up their minds whether they want police help or not.
It’s not really responsive to BLM’s complaints, but it’s the kind of thing someone who doesn’t want to listen to them could repeat and think “checkmate, libs”.
Exregis
@H.E.Wolf: Not a new visitor. Been posting (very) sporadically for maybe a decade under various pseudonyms as the mood strikes. Right now, using exregis (not rex regis) out of solidarity with schoolmate Tony Fauci. We overlapped a couple of years in high school. That’s how I know the scientist Fauci had only one year of science in high school, but four years each of Latin, history, mathematics, English, etc., 3 years of classical Greek, 2 years of a foreign language (French or German). These were all required for all students.
I also grew up in a slum Manhattan tenement at 104 E 121 St (which no longer exists), so I knew before many people here were born what the fuck black lives (then called colored or Negro) were like. The police have not changed one bit, except to look scarier. They were the same bullies then as they are now.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: Defund the purity leftists!
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: It’s a wonder that new commenters show up here at all or that lurkers delurk. If you put a foot wrong, you get to be accused of being a paid Russian tool.
cain
@Kay:
As I am fond of saying – the media is not about educating us about the candidates. They are into info-tainment – that means they are only interested in phrasing and comms that will let them help you look at ads.
That is their business model.
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl: Defenestrate, too. With sharp pointy teeth.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: The juicitariat can be very judgemental.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I wouldn’t call the cops about a neighbor’s stereo being too loud or their dog barking* if I thought that either the neighbor or I was in danger of being shot and killed as a result.
*I wouldn’t do it anyway, but still….
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Yep.
In our defense, we do get trolls where the goal is to disrupt, so I get where people are coming from. But yeah, it’s not a warm welcome!
Krope, the Formerly Dope
You can comment here for a decade and a half and get that accusation. Lurkers read the blog, they know what’s up.
gene108
@Kay:
I think 2020 is different than 2016.
There are real, pressing, life and death problems this year, which have people wanting more from politicians than empty slogans.
I think people are developing the attention span to listen to an actual paragraph worth of explanation, than just a bumper sticker talking point.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Betty Cracker:
Quoted for truth:
Kay
@Roger Moore:
What services do police provide in a community? Not killing people is not a service. White people accept and receive these services, and they get them without a casualty count. Black people are also entitled to them. “police who murder OR no police protections” is not an acceptable choice. They get more than that.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I still find myself shocked at how many people are unable to draw a dotted line between their actions and a likely outcome.
I find it discouraging to have to continually downgrade my expectations about intelligence and the immaturity of far too high a percentage of the population. Trump, coronavirus, etc.
I read somewhere recently about an experiment with 5-year-olds, was it here? You got one marshmallow if you ate it now, and you got two if you waited something like 15 minutes.
Then they followed those kids – and there was a correlation to success in life, based on whether you were able to choose the delayed gratification. That’s a skill we need to be teaching kids, in case they are not learning it at home.
Haroldo
@WaterGirl:
I’m a very infrequent commenter, partially by inclination, partially a result of the unwelcoming nature of some of the commentariat.
I should add that both you and Omnes have been quite welcoming.
Omnes Omnibus
@Haroldo: Do I have to say “fuck you” again?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I’d be more persuaded if Ocasio-Cortez and her following weren’t always so quick to attack any Democrats who deviated from their own party line. Just look at her, and Sanders’, reactions to the South Carolina primary, sending the “Sunrise Movement” to have a sit-in in Nancy Pelosi’s office, booing Hillary Clinton, etc. Hell, Herself got roasted on twitter for saying Elizabeth Warren was funny on SNL.
PJ
@different-church-lady: Or the way some people take of other people’s stuff? I have learned the hard way never to lend books or records . . .
Haroldo
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s not my first goat-blowing rodeo, you know.
PJ
@Betty Cracker: Black protestors aren’t crying out to “defund the police”, that’s white people on Twitter. It was also white people who painted out the DC flag (flag of a district historically majority black) to turn “Black Lives Matter – DC Flag” into “Black LIves Matter = Defund the Police”.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
In Louisville, we’ve got a bit of a constellation of police forces due to municipal political vagaries. There are some small departments, a few middle sized departments and a sheriff’s department used mainly for process, bailiff and traffic control purposes – but the behemoth is LMPD. It consumes 189M annually, just by itself (includes pensions and a couple of subcategories). Correctional services consume 62M. Metrosafe/Emergency Management (shared between LMPD, LFD and EMS) blows through another 16M.
The cost of fucking up by aggressive policing gobbles up roughly 40% of the annual budget. That has to stop.
Yesterday, I walked through a portion of downtown – my favorite portion, really, as I work in it. I wanted to document for myself, with a good camera, the closures and damage. Many is the time we would take a hotel room downtown and walk about to restaurants, bar and nightclubs, occasionally windowshopping. They’re nearly all closed, many have sustained broken glass, graffiti and other damage. Some were looted. Other places have boarded up as a prophylactic measure.
The worst stretch was a two night period when LMPD and the KSP went by the failed police manual. Show up in riot gear, tighten up into phalanxes, and intimidate the crowd. Declare the assembly unlawful and break it up by shooting pepper balls, rubber bullets and tear gas canisters. Stay a tight nit group, and don’t do any policing on any periphery. Tactically, it was stupid, as they all failed of their true essential purpose in protection of lives and property – they penned themselves in to a tight group at the government buildings trying to control a rampaging mob that they created.
Ultimately, the crowd found other targets – restaurants, hotels, shops, bars and really expensive and informative “smart” touchscreen kiosks.
Announce a September date to disband the entire department to get out of holdover provisions of the FOP contract. Announce that only 3 of every 5 officers will be returning to the new department, but that they have to justify their hiring by having a clean use of force record. In the new agreement, pay more but prohibit moonlighting, get rid of the “you get 48 hours before we talk to you about your screwup” provision, and get rid of the contractual waiver of the statutorily allowable suspension without pay.
Baud
While an infrequent commenter is not technically a troll, any commenter that claims that “Democrats” did something that the “Democrats” did not do deserves pushback. We are in this mess because we have been too casual in the past in dealing with misinformation and calumnies levied against us.
Jinchi
@schrodingers_cat: There are people who have called for defunding the police, because they’ve buried their children.
Stop trying to convince yourself this is coming from twitter trolls. If you want to get a sense for how popular this view is among people on the street, walk down to the nearest protest and take an informal poll yourself.
They probably don’t care about how it affects Democratic messaging, either.
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
The “Marshmallow test” has been largely debunked, or at the very least people who tried to replicate it have mostly failed.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
She doesn’t have to try. All the world’s ills are downstream of Rose Twitter.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: From the CNN article linked up top:
WaterGirl
@Haroldo: I was about to reply, but I see that Omnes has it covered! :-)
My rule of thumb? Never let one person run you off. If a bunch of people are jumping on you, you might want to rethink what you wrote. But if you give it a good look, and you still think you’re right, then stand your ground. Just don’t be an asshole.
Shorter: comment whenever you want to!
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Oh, far be it from me to say that calumny should not be heaped on people who say stupid shit. I just don’t care for hair trigger accusations of trollery. More often, people are merely wrong or dumb (temporarily or not).
Betty Cracker
@PJ: You’re wrong about that. “Defund the police” is a common chant at protests and is said by protesters of all colors. Please feel free to Google it for evidence.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Another observation from my photo essay yesterday – as I walked through a shuttered and damaged core business district and passed through the daily protests, I came across a scene that served as the most fitting coda on the exercise – some homeless guy had been trying to cross the street on the corner across from my office. He had a bike and some sort of drag cart. For some reason, our Heroes in Blue noticed him and decided that he needed their attentions. There were at least 4 and maybe as many as 6 cruisers jammed up to the corner, and a large gaggle of cops standing there and doing nothing with their thumbs up their asses as one guy patted down the homeless dude and another rooted through his shit.
I help pay for that. Too much, in my opinion.
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: Interesting!
Well, my experience in life says that it’s true. So I’m sticking with the larger point, even if the research has been debunked.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Kay:
I read somewhere that violence by police officers in urban areas is actually down, but going up in the suburbs are rural areas. I wonder how much of that is due to bad cops getting fired, and getting jobs in less urban districts. If the effort to reform the police only succeeds in urban areas (rather than succeeding nationally), more and more people in outlying areas will have encounters with sadistic police officers. Attitudes will change, like they did about drug use, because it will stop being seen as just an urban issue.
WaterGirl
@Baud:
Completely agree.
I see a difference between refuting someone’s position and telling them they are dead wrong AND jumping to the conclusion that someone might be a troll. That’s the part that makes me cringe sometimes.
But once it’s clear they’re not here for discussion but to disrupt instead, all gloves are off.
exregis
@Baud: So I guess Ocasio-Cortez or one of the Castros (they look so much alike) are not Democrats, because they actually said defund the police. And many more Democrats said the same. They are not the Democratic Party, but one must be careful (that is, not be too casual) to distinguish the two when talking about calumnies.
Indeed Democrats did do some things. And other Democrats did not do some things. Gets confusing, eh?
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Okay, now I have seen a democrat say that.
Not a big surprise that it’s Manchin. Hoping he’s the only one.
Baud
@exregis:
Then name names. When you say “Democrats” to refer to a handful of Democrats, you’re being misleading. And in any event, even those Democrats didn’t “come up” with the slogan as you contended.
Jinchi
@exregis: You only know Ocasio-Cortez’s name because she stands out in sharp contrast to the party as a whole.
If a freshman congresswoman posting ‘Defund the Police’ matters more to someone than the calls by major Republicans for military assault on peaceful protesters, then they’re probably going vote Republican anyway.
schrodingers_cat
@Jinchi: I didn’t say that it is only coming from Twitter trolls but it is certainly being amplified by the progressive Twitter contingent.
At this point the greatest threat to our well being as a nation is the Orange tyrant and his R enablers so yes I do care about how these protests affect the election in November.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WaterGirl: If the moderates I know on Facebook are any guide, lots of voting Democrats think ‘Defund the police’ sounds crazy.
PJ
@Betty Cracker: You can also google video of white people painting over the DC flag. I have seen plenty of black people stating that “defund the police” is a stupid slogan and not what they want.
WaterGirl
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I can believe that.
This was in The Washington Monthly yesterday! bolding mine
Defund does sound like an all-or-nothing proposition.
Sadly, people who want to use the word “defund” as a weapon are not interested in understanding the finer points of what is meant by what is being proposed.
Betty Cracker
@PJ: I don’t dispute that, so there’s no need to Google it. Just pointing the way to evidence that your original statement was wrong in case you care to correct the incorrect assumption.
@WaterGirl: Yeah, he can be a jackass but is probably the best we can do in WV. Le sigh.
MisterForkbeard
@Betty Cracker: I was a little unclear as to what AOC meant there. Was she implying that representatives weren’t understanding when they say they don’t want to adopt that framing?
ellenr
@Mary G: Thanks for finding this article. Important thoughts and voice
Fair Economist
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Sounds good to me!
scav
@Mary G: Behavior like this from companies is better even than mere polling numbers.
JaneE
Instead of “defund” they should say “repeal and replace”. Replace police departments with records of corruption, brutality, racism and any number of other failures with a group of agencies that provide all the services the city needs, but limiting “police” responses to what appear to be felony crimes.
Uninvited Guest
Nevermind.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WaterGirl:
Most voters are not paying enough attention or spending enough time on the subject to fully understand what is being proposed. They may never take that time. That’s why people say, ‘If you are explaining, you are losing’. Another Democrat who objects to the messaging: https://www.chicagotribune.com/politics/ct-jb-pritzker-defunding-police-20200608-uszh4ez74vferdfjvxcqk7lofu-story.html
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: I would have totally failed that test, btw.
Must be why I’m living so not-large now, eh?//
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
What I should say more specifically is that the evidence that you can predict a lot about a 5 year-old child’s future by their willingness to forego a treat for 15 minutes is now highly questionable. That doesn’t mean that willingness to forego immediate pleasure in pursuit of a long-term goal isn’t valuable, just that the original study was flawed.
Betty Cracker
@MisterForkbeard: The description of the remarks in the CNN article is pretty brief, but my interpretation is she meant don’t dismiss the debate out of hand because you disagree with the framing, and she’s right about that, IMO. I don’t think the slogan is effective because it’s too easy to demagogue, but what the protesters are asking for is worth considering.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: We love you anyway.
gwangung
This discussion about “defund the police” reminds me of sociological research I encountered when I was a youth, where transformative movements that actually change society have multiple components, from moderate to more radical. And what actually gets done is sort of a free market competition of those components to see what resonates with wider society.
So, basically, I am kind of sanguine about the use of “defund the police.” It certainly resonates and is a legitimate feeling. And I think it’s more important that we advocate for what we actually believe in and not denigrate too much people who want more.
Villago Delenda Est
So, what they have right now.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I also want to state that the issue isn’t people going, “Democrats have bad messaging, I’m voting for Trump!” That is highly unlikely. What I worry about is people going, “Defund the police! That’s crazy! Democrats are just as crazy as Trump. I won’t vote.” We need people to vote FOR Biden and other Democrats, not for them to stay out of the process altogether because they don’t believe either side will provide rational governance.
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: Yep. They even have their own gang colors. I am appalled that the person who could write that is writing columns at The Washington Monthly.
Exregis
@Baud: Sorry for not being clearer. BTW, framing something doesn’t imply the framers invented the something. Be cautious when attributing.
H.E.Wolf
@Exregis:
Small world! My dad grew up on Haven Avenue in Washington Heights.
As a teenager, he once sprained an ankle seeing just how many stairs down to the subway he could jump over. Apparently the answer was 1 less than the number he jumped. :)
Exregis
@H.E.Wolf: Small world, redux. My son moved to New York City and lived in Washington Heights until he got rich as a TV art director — making three times more per year than I ever did — and moved downtown. He still misses the bodegas and fruit stands (before SARS-Cov-2) where he bought the food he was going to cook the same evening. He used to be a set director for plays and that hardly paid for non-Broadway shows.
Your father was brave. Not me.
rikyrah
@Roger Moore:
I just want the police to treat me like they do the average White man. Not a rich White man. Just an average one.
My odds of surviving an encounter with the police if treated like the average White man would shoot way way up.
sdhays
This thread is probably dead, but is this for real? 40% of the police budget goes to settlements? Where the fuck are the people who bitch about their taxes being too high??
rikyrah
@sdhays:
This is why I can’t get past
MAKE POLICE FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE.
I truly believe, if you pay police misconduct lawsuit settlements FROM THE POLICE PENSION FUND – and don’t replace the funds…
They will get their shyt together.
NO OTHER JOB..
You can phuck up…
Cost your employer (the taxpayers), on the low end – hundreds of thousands of dollars…
on the high end – millions of dollars..
GET TO KEEP YOUR JOB…
AND….CAN DO IT AGAIN.
J R in WV
@Kay:
Actually, this IS getting it done, according to their bosses. They will succeed at this, again, where “this” is getting Republicans elected and in control, still.
You seem to think journalism is the point here, when actually the point is doing what the owner want done. They really want and need their tax cuts, and also, authoritarian control of, well, everything, is also on their short list of things they want.
Especially the NY Times!!
debbie
They need to add a provision decertifying every police union in the country.
J R in WV
@Roger Moore:
BLM isn’t about “too quick to enforce” — it’s about murder by cop, as we have seen all too often on live video. I know you know that, so am not dissing you at all. I’m just complaining about the concept in its whole!
@Kay:
So much this!!!