The Minneapolis city council has pledged to disband the city’s police department and replace it with a new system of public safety, a historic move that comes as calls to defund law enforcement are sweeping the US.
Speaking at a community rally on Sunday, a veto-proof majority of councilmembers declared their intent to “dismantle” and “abolish” the embattled police agency responsible for George Floyd’s death – and build an alternative model of community-led safety. The decision is a direct response to the massive protests that have taken over American cities in the last two weeks, and is a major victory for abolitionist activists who have long fought to disband police and prisons.
I’m sure the FoxNews fear chorus has already started chanting about how Democrats are going to leave our cities without police. Scary! Well, Camden, NJ did it a few years ago, and they now have the lowest homicide rate since the 80’s. And, no riots:
That Camden was able to demonstrate peacefully without escalation looked like a sign of progress in a city that’s one of the country’s poorest and was once considered its most dangerous. “What we’re experiencing today in Camden is the result of many years of deposits in the relationship bank account,” says Scott Thomson, Camden’s chief of police until 2019. He led the city’s high-profile pivot to community policing from 2013 until last year and oversaw what turned out to be a steep decline in crime. Homicides in Camden reached 67 in 2012; the figure for 2019 was 25. Over the past seven years, the department has undertaken some of the most far-reaching police reforms in the country, and its approach has been praised by former President Barack Obama.
By “disbanding” their police force and creating a new county-wide police force, Camden was able to increase the size of its force, and adopt a new use-of-force policy which has led to a 95% drop in excessive force complaints. They did it to bust the union, though the county officers are now represented by a new union.
The Democratic mayor of Minneapolis opposes the reforms that his council will pass, and I’m guessing a lot of other mayors and Democratic elected officials and candidates don’t like the notion of defunding the police. I’m sure there are policy arguments, but much of that opposition at this moment comes from fear of political backlash. Here’s the thing: no matter which reforms Democrats advocate, Trump and Fox will attack us as “soft on crime”. Why not choose a reform that rids us of entrenched police unions run by MAGA hats?
Cheryl Rofer
Say it again and again
I’m seeing a lot about how using those words “just gives the Republicans a campaign line.”
Just. Stop.
Nicole
As has been pointed out before, police unions show no loyalty to other public sector unions. They are their own, independent thing. Which, to me, seems to make them less a union and more a gang.
I mean, you don’t see the teachers’ unions defending teachers who beat up students, and trying to get them their jobs back.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Cheryl Rofer: The simple campaign message can be, “Camden did it, and today they have more cops on the street than ever.”
There are so many ways to sell this. But, to stoke the fear factor, if Minneapolis does this now, all of the growing pains and other inevitable issues will come to a head close to the election. We have to recognize that and message accordingly.
Tony Jay
Exactly. Putting it in the simplest of terms.
“Nothing gets better until we stop making it worse.”
Letting Police define themselves as an unaccountable Army of Occupation doesn’t work for anyone but sociopathic wannabes and the politicians who run on fear and hate. So try something better.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
These same voters are terrified that Anifata are going to invade their communities.
schrodingers_cat
@Cheryl Rofer: Are you saying that this is not a gift to Team Orange or are you saying that it is a gift but it doesn’t matter.
And once again the leftist fringe led by the same people who touted the saint of Vt as their only savior is trying to usurp a movement led by black people.
The same people that bought you Abolish Ice and M4A. The ones who think that a good slogan is a substitute for getting elected and making policy.
Ocotillo
That old problem Democrats have faced too many times in the past, if you’re explaining, you’re losing.
Count me among those terrified this is a political loser. Not the reform and action that needs to be done but the bumpersticker mentality of so many voters. If you’re explaining, you’re losing.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Don’t leave us in suspense. Details, my friend, details!
Cheryl Rofer
@schrodingers_cat: I think MisterMix’s message at #3 is a good one!
Baud
People make this argument a lot and in a lot of different contexts, but I don’t find it persuasive. It’s true that the right will attack us rhetorically whatever we do, but not all attacks land with the same force with voters. On the flip side, people arguing against a particular course of action shouldn’t rest their argument on what Trump and Fox will say either.
MattF
‘Defund’ is divisive, imprecise, and unfortunately necessary. Red meat for the right, and Fox, the Foxbots and the Russian bots will jump on it with a sense of relief. But something has to be done. I’m torn here.
Chief Oshkosh
“Camden did it, and today they have more AND BETTER cops on the street than ever. Way less crime and almost no brutality.”
Too much?
Baud
@Ocotillo: That makes sense to me. Regardless of what the right policy is, “defund” or “disband” is poor branding because it leaves the wrong impression of what that policy is in the minds of the uninitiated (unless the policy really is having no local law enforcement functions).
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker, but fits in a tweet. So pretty good. Can we get this down to a hashtag? There must be a German portmanteau word for this.
A Ghost to Most
I prefer to get my information from reliable narrators.
Barbara
@MattF: Defund is too broad and too vague. Defunding the police won’t necessarily fix the problem of excessive and unjustified force. Defunding the purchase of military goodies (which is what I assume it is aiming for) would be extremely useful.
Lapassionara
@MattF: something must be done, but language matters. Why the phrase “defund police” when the action is really to “improve policing.”!
rp
I’d prefer something like “rebuild” to “defund.” The message should be that the institutions should be torn down to the studs so that they can be rebuilt to be smarter, less dangerous, more effective, and less expensive.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Well, “reform” sounds inadequate plus been there before. “Re-form” hits the mark but is hard to differentiate from the former, especially in spoken form. Reconstitute?
Weren’t they just giving them away?
Kylroy
@Ocotillo: This is why Camden is so important as an example. I’ve been terrified that all it will take is one murder in the Minneapolis suburbs to derail this whole reform – but we have a six year example of how this works. Beat this drum long and loud: Camden has shown us how to have cheaper, better police.
Baud
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
“Reimagine the police.” Accurate, but a little disneyesque.
Kylroy
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: #CamdenPolicingWorks?
Chief Oshkosh
@rp: I think Camden called it “rebuilding and reforming.”
“Rebuild. Reform. Right Now.”
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Ooh! Reconceptualize
I like it.
Also, awesome AM BJ Brainstorm sesh.
Barbara
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Some, for a while, but I believe that the original program expired some time ago. I would bet there is a pretty hefty budget for the purchase of tactical weapons and related materials, like body armor and so on.
Baud
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
“reinvent”?
Chief Oshkosh
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
Yeah, but maintenance costs are killer. Pun intended.
rp
@Chief Oshkosh: Perfect. It worked for Camden, and if it ain’t broke…
Baud
syphonblue
Who gives a flying shit what Republicans say about us? They’re going to say whatever they want to say regardless of truth. Joe Biden (Joe Biden!) will be the new Most Socialist Socialist Who Ever Socialisted this year.
The messaging that needs to change is not “Defund the Police”. That’s a perfectly valid slogan and invites further discussion. The messaging that needs to change is the Democratic Party should be out on every news show hitting the lawlessness, brutality, and near invincibility of our police forces. They should be showing up at ever news show with footage taken directly from Doucette’s Twitter feed/Google doc showing what exactly the police are doing to our citizens.
The momentum is on our side now. The country is starting to realize what’s happening with the police in the country. Don’t get caught up in fucking semantic arguments now.
Baud
@syphonblue:
If you read the thread, that’s what many of us are saying.
gene108
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
Camden being a very poor city, with a very small tax base, has been subsidized by the state for years.
Gov. Christie used Camden’s financial struggles to do what many Republican governors did then, which is take control away from the local government.
The move to a countywide police force was about union busting, along with the trend of Republican appointees running poor cities.
The countywide police force was not an overnight success. It has had fits and starts. The reason it has become more effective is the people running it worked to reform police practices.
It could just as easily have ended up a hot mess.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Obama ended it. Trump restarted it while also ditching consent decrees.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chief Oshkosh:
This is good.
Sloane Ranger
I too fear that “Defund” allows the Republicans to run on a platform that anarchists and liberals want to abolish the police and allow the inner city hordes to come to your nice suburban area to steal your stuff and rape your wife and daughter. It will resonate with some people who were genuinely shocked at what was done to Mr Floyd but who will be fearful of what would happen in a policeless world.
It’s probably too late now, “Defund” has become the accepted word, but someone on this blog a few days ago suggested “Transform” as an alternative. Much more positive and more difficult to spin into a threat.
jeffreyw
@Baud: Do what they do – call it police reform. They will see it just like they see calls for social security reform, just another term for eliminate, but we could just shrug it off and ask them “what do you have against reform”?
Do not give away the dog whistle tool.
Baud
@Sloane Ranger:
Probably so.
schrodingers_cat
Defund the police as a slogan is terrible irrespective of what the Republicans and Team Orange think of it. It will turn off far more people than it will attract.
Also I trust uniformed police over the Karens of Nextdoor (community policing)
Baud
@Sloane Ranger:
@Baud:
That said, Abolish ICE seems to have died down as a slogan, although I don’t think another slogan has taken its place.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
I am in despair as we once again head toward defeat. At least we didn’t nominate Bernie, though.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: But it was pushed by the same cosplaying socialists that are pushing Defund Police right now. I also wonder how much of this is being amplified by our friendly Russian secret service by bots and such.
Fomenting racial unrest is one of the tricks in their book. This was their plan in 2016 and is their plan now.
WereBear
It doesn’t matter WHAT we do. The Right Wing will spin it and call it whatever they want.
Omnes Omnibus
What are you talking about?
Baud
@zhena gogolia: I don’ think “defund” will bring down Biden. He’s not going to adopt it as his own slogan.
@schrodingers_cat: I assume “defund” originated with BLM. I don’t like the slogan, but I don’t think they are the same group of people as the cosplaying socialists.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Speak the truth and bear witness to what is happening that is what we can do. We will prevail ultimately. But the road is going to be long and tough.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Yes, the noted socialist revolutionaries of *checks upthread* the Minneapolis City Council.
Jeffro
@rp:
@Chief Oshkosh:
sign me up for Team “Rebuild”. “Defund” is an own goal and a half.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I am not sure where the slogan is originally from, but I follow several black people, most are regular Democrats (the non BS wing), on Twitter and they have been pretty unhappy about this Defund business
Jeffro
@Omnes Omnibus: seconded here.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Well, all of us who agree should work to put it out there and hope it gains traction.
*I assume I’m a rarity here that Balloon Juice is the full extent of my social media engagement
Roger Moore
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
I think this is basically a good idea, but it needs to be sold as reform and accountability rather than an attack on the police. We all know there are police out there who shouldn’t be on the job but who are being protected by their unions. Derek Chauvin is a great example; he has a long disciplinary record, including multiple shootings, but was allowed to remain on the force. Even worse, we know every department that’s having problems with their relations with the public has the same kind of person on it. We need to get rid of bad apples like him before they make the whole force rotten. It shouldn’t be a hard sell if it’s sold that way.
gene108
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Nope. The “disband” and “defund” language will turn off people, who don’t know or barely know what antifa is.
There are a lot of well intentioned people who disapprove of the looting and property destruction, and feel two wrongs don’t make a right, who agree police need to be reformed, so they stop murdering black people.
These are folks, who don’t go on political blogs, use Twitter, etc. They have a general fear of crime.
And they will think, “are they going to abolish the police force?”, and what will happen to me, when the hear words like “disband” and “defund”.
Unfortunately for politicians this time around so many attempts at police reform have gone nowhere, the word “reform” has become meaningless, and now here we are.
I don’t think this will affect many votes, in 2020, because Republicans have been awful in so many ways, but bad framing shouldn’t be ignored or brushed aside, because you “get it”.
spc123
@Ocotillo: reform and rebuild – defund is a dumb term and isn’t even remotely accurate. It needs to go away.
syphonblue
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/cnn-poll-trump-biden-chaotic-week/index.html
So many pearl-clutchers in here. The people are on our side. It is not the time to lay down and hand it over to the Republicans who are going to lie no matter what. That’s been the Democratic Party’s modus operandi for YEARS. Enough of that crap. Take the reins and leave them in the dust.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Well, I think most people recognize that the looters/rioters are distinct from the main body of protesters (I’m pretty sure I’ve seen polling on this here blog that bears that out) and recognize that things need to change with policing.
You can want to address our policing problem and still want order. These ideas can be held simultaneously. In fact, in the long term, I think they’re inseperable.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
This is my greatest fear.
Baud
@syphonblue:
Neither that article nor the “rah rah” rhetoric addresses the question of the efficacy of “defund” as a slogan.
gene108
@Baud:
For all the good they have done, they are bad at sloganeering (most liberal groups are).
BLM has long been used to refer to the Bureau of Land Management, for example.
If only we had a liberal Frank Luntz, who could work pro-bono, for our groups, and come up with better slogans.
schrodingers_cat
@gene108: If we had a Luntz no one would listen to him/her.
Matt McIrvin
@schrodingers_cat: I’m notorious around here for spending too much time listening to fringe leftists, but I’m not seeing it. The most passionate “defund the police” and police-abolition advocates I hear aren’t white Bernie stans, they’re black.
PsiFighter37
Using the word “defund” is stupid and a political loser. There are better ways to message this.
Jeffro
Working on it! =)
MisterForkbeard
@Cheryl Rofer: I think “Disband the Police” or “Abolish the Police” is a good idea and a terrible name.
I’m remembering how “AbolishICE” was sold by the Republicans and media as “Democrats don’t want any border protection at all”. It’s the same deal: It was a good policy where it was sunk partially because the name wasn’t descriptive of what it actually did.
“Replace the Police” is much better.
rikyrah
These folks continue to get played by allowing clowns to stomp over their message.
Defund the police?
What the phuck is that foolishness.
Try.
MAKE. POLICE.FINANCIALLY.ACCOUNTABLE.
Folks think that I’m attached to the police and their money issue, but, I truly believe if the money that’s used to settle police misconduct lawsuits was TAKEN FROM THE POLICE PENSION FUND..
Instead of taxpayer dollars..
Shyt would get resolved…REALLY FAST.
Phuck with THEIR money….
They will weed out the ‘ bad apples’ quite fast.
gene108
The problem we have with slogans is we react in the moment.
ICE is separating families? Fuck it, abolish ICE. Those heartless motherfuckers.
I don’t think we will succeed, if we went down the Frank Luntz path of disingenuous, but well sounding phrases. At some level it just won’t work, because Democratic supporters expect more than talking points.
Served
The furrowed brow concern over the phrase “Defund the Police” here is truly cringe worthy. Aren’t y’all the same people talking about burning down the media in every NYT thread?
Some people are trying to do actual work on this issue and have been for a long time. I trust them to lead on it.
joel hanes
@schrodingers_cat:
Nextdoor (community policing)
This is nothing like the accepted meaning of the term “community policing”, which in the context of American police reform, has a long literature.
Omnes Omnibus
Who was it who said recently that 10-15% of Americans are very good people?
Suzanne
I have to say that I’m enjoying the DGAF version of Mitt Romney that we saw this weekend.
Suzanne
@Baud: “Disrupt police!” There, now it sounds all Silicon Valley-ized.
“Reconstruct police”? Too much like Reconstruction.
“Purge Police”? Like the movie?
I’d probably just go with “rebuild justice”.
gene108
@rikyrah:
Yup.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: On the internet I am a cat.
I am seeing it amplified by leftier-than-thou handles with huge followings right now
Kshama Sawant
Stancegrounded
IIhan Omar
OK none of them are white but definitely all of them are in the left fringe.
schrodingers_cat
@joel hanes: I was joking, should have included snark tags, I thought it was obvious.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
The only one of those names I know is a Congresswoman. Hard to say she’s not putting the work in or hijacking anything. Are you only here to make people angry at the “left?” Is there a Bernie monster under your bed?
schrodingers_cat
@PsiFighter37: @rikyrah: Its good to know that I am not alone!
schrodingers_cat
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: I speak the truth as I see it. You are free to pie me or ignore my comments.
raven
All this hubbub and I’m just nervous about getting my teeth cleaned!
schrodingers_cat
@raven: Dentist appointments are always nerve racking, COVID or not Good luck!
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: Just be glad you still have teeth.
Sure Lurkalot
I would like to see the police demilitarized. Why do I hate the troops?
So many words eager to be twisted.
I think it was Rikyrah who pointed out a couple of days ago the enormity of money paid out in cases of police brutality. Money cities could have used for many urgent needs…and now with cities and states under water due to Covid, we simply cannot afford this model of papering over these abuses. This and taking away the weapons of war is what defund means to me.
Jinchi
@Suzanne: It helps that he has often celebrated his father marching for civil rights in the 1960’s. Mitt was a teenager at the time and I’m sure it left an impression. Looking at the streets across the country in 2020 filled with protesters, and a president sending in troops to slap them down, probably brought back memories.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Hey, same thing I’m doing! You are free to take your own advice.
schrodingers_cat
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Consider it done. I was only responding to your comment tagging me. BTW.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: #RebootThePolice?
“Have you tried turning them off, and then turning them on again?”
(This is the purpose of defunding, right? Lay off the current force, and then hire a better force with a clear public safety charter.)
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: I ain’t got no money, I got no teefus, and I definitely ain’t got no drivers license!
Matt McIrvin
Anyway, I’m not too worried because, c’mon, Joe Biden is not going to become a police abolitionist. He’s already being accused of it but it’s just obviously ludicrous. There will be the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth when people on the activist left realize this (he’s already Joe “shoot ’em in the leg” Biden to them), and it may become a litmus test in the super-blue districts where Our Revolution candidates are viable. But this is what happens in big political coalitions.
Fair Economist
“Defund the police” is not going to be taken up by the national Democratic party. The national party is proposing reforms to reduce misconduct and racial bias. “Defund the police” will be a local slogan, probably in a very few districts. Basically, we’re all going to watch Minneapolis.
At the same time, Minneapolis pretty much has to defund its police department and establish a different system for policing. They already have a respectable set of reforms, and it’s not helping. The bad apples have spoiled this bunch.
So basically the attacks from Republicans are false (because nationally we’re not supporting or proposing this) and nobody on our side can do much differently anyway. So, plan to respond to the false attacks (oh, how surprising) with “Republicans want the police to get a big pension for strangling you. Democrats will protect you.”.
matt
The slogan should be ‘disrupt the police’. We need to apply some creative destruction to a system that’s failing us.
The Thin Black Duke
This is a ridiculous argument. The protesters out there in the middle of a pandemic aren’t arguing about semantics.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@syphonblue:
I completely disagree. If suburban voters swing to Trump this election, you can blame this slogan. White suburbanites feel like they get public safety from the police and they vote. You can get them onboard with rebuilding and reform, but ‘Defund the Police’ sounds like NO police. That will freak them out completely. We need those voters.
Barbara
@Fair Economist: This is one of those things whereby the most extreme voices allow those who are pursuing less radical but still wide ranging reforms to sound moderate by comparison. It’s how the window for what is considered to be mainstream and acceptable moves in your direction.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@schrodingers_cat:
You know that’s not how real community policing works.
The slogan may be imprecise, but the need to fundamentally reform our police in many many communities across the country has brought thousands of people to the streets, all across the world.
Call it what you like, but the need is real. The pain is real. And a movement is here to do something about it.
Question the slogan. But don’t question the need for one.
Fair Economist
In further support of “defund the police”, comparison to Europe shows a big part of our problem is *exactly* that we spend too much on police and too little on community services. Moving most (yes, most) of that money to supportive housing, jobs programs, social workers, etc., will reduce crime.
dirge
“Defund, disrupt, whatever, the police” is too abstract. If you’re looking for a bumper sticker, you want something like “Stop Killer Cops.”
SandyZ
The “fund” part of policing is the crux of the problem. Police get all the local financial support they do because no politician can vote against law enforcement. Of course, that’s in large part a veil for protect us from POC. Try getting extra local funding for social services. Not gonna happen. Unless those services are run by the police (public safety) department. So we’re talking “re-fund” the police.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: I agree that this is not going to affect Joe Biden much. But the fringe xenophobic right which was a small but potent force in the form of Pat Buchanan when Bill Clinton ran for his second term eventually took over the R party.
I think BS is our Pat Buchanan and if and when the Ds are taken over by the fringe left (it may or may not happen) our politics will be become totally unmanageable. Ds are the only force that are standing between us becoming a Putinist republic like many former Soviet satellites currently are.
schrodingers_cat
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I am questioning the slogan not the movement or the need for it. I joined the tiny vigil held in my town this weekend for George Floyd.
Barbara
@Fair Economist: It’s similar with medical care — other countries dispense their resources much more evenly between housing, food, and health care, whereas, we spend a hugely disproportionate percentage of dollars on health care versus social supports. We seem to lack the gene for preventive maintenance . . .
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Personally, I love it.
Responding is a charitable term for what you did there. Also, too bad you can’t see this anymore, huh? What will I ever do without you?
Fair Economist
@Barbara:
Exactly. Minneapolis is still going to have policing, just not with the current MPD. They don’t have a specific plan yet, but they have two years to prepare one (current contract runs to 2022; it would be very hard for them to get out of it.) And their ideas for drastic reforms (they’re talking about splitting policing to multiple departments) now look moderate even though they would have been utterly beyond the pale just 2 weeks ago.
PsiFighter37
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: I like the ‘reboot’ framing.
Also, I highly doubt smart Democratic politicians will fall for this trap of ‘defunding’. Corey Booker already said he would rise that wording. I suspect that other Democratic politicians outside of AOC and other young, like-minded congresspeople will jump on that bandwagon. Point to how “Abolish ICE” turned out…it is a losing battle.
rp
@The Thin Black Duke: That’s true for now, but if the movement is going to have to have a lasting impact the framing of the argument, including the slogans, is important.
Fair Economist
More generally, with this current set of protests, our side seems to be becoming better organized. Agitators are agitating. Legislators are legislating. The two sides seem to have learned not to attack each other – BLM is not being “purity pony”, the party is not going “Sistah Souljah”. And public opinion is moving far and fast, with substantive reforms looking likely in a number of municipalities plus nationally, assuming the Dems get the trifecta. I know it’s only one week, but this is what success looks like and I’m enjoying it.
MattF
Problem is that the Minneapolis PD has been revealed to be a criminal organization. Murder, shakedowns, the works. ‘Reform’ simply is not the answer to this degree of dysfunction, and calling it reform opens the door to yet another round of excuses and inaction. Call it what you like, but defund and disband is what’s actually needed to fix the problem.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I agree with the first half. I actually expect AOC and others will recognize better messaging when they see it and adapt accordingly.
L85NJGT
Labeling something “re” only indicates an oncoming clusterfuck.
Lack of character and accountability are the issues here.
@Nicole:
In a School district? Failure to report gets you fired. In a PD? Circle the thin blue line.
dirge
@Fair Economist:
Part of the problem is that we’re trying to use police to perform community services — discipline in schools, mental health interventions, and so on — while training and equipping for SWAT. Back when the SWAT team was like six guys, and the rest of the force walked a beat, that was less crazy, but it was still too broad a set of responsibilities for one organization. Creating organizations to handle non-police jobs so police can concentrate on policing ought to sound reasonable to most people. And since we seem to have redefined policing to mean nothing but kinetic paramilitary intervention, well, most forces can be shrunk down to that six guy SWAT team.
Hildebrand
@Chief Oshkosh: Yep. We need to give people an image of building up, not tearing down.
Trump does nothing but tear things apart, we will rebuild and make things better.
Aleta
Post:
Baud
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
Police 2.0!
Fair Economist
@dirge:
Nicely put.
Omnes Omnibus
That actually fits as slogan for Democrats for 2020 and beyond. It’s what we need to be doing.
L85NJGT
According to CNN polling Biden has a 14 point lead.
Miss Bianca
@rikyrah: I’m all for this idea. How to actually implement it legally is another question.
@Served: I’m with you on this one.
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
The Wikipedia article on community policing doesn’t define it as Karen from next door telling the cops on you. I am mystified that you characterise it that way, even as as a joke.
Kathleen
@schrodingers_cat: I live in a city which has and continues to undergo a transformation of its police after years of racial profiling and police murdering African Americans. The city and police entered into a Collaborative Agreement with oversight of Justice Department. Consensus is that relations between community and police have improved but we still need work. Crime is down. At no point did anyone label this as defunding police. If you are interested in learning more you can google it. I’d provide you with links but don’t have great Google skills on my phone. It is considered a model across the country.
Jinchi
Is it though? Millions of people are taking to the streets with a simple demand, ‘stop killing our people.’
Not only does ‘Defund the Police’ put an exclamation point on that demand, it gets the subject of police violence center stage and opens up a debate that centrist politicians like Cory Booker can step into by offering ‘reasonable’ alternatives. It’s not the job of activists to come up with poll tested catchphrases for politicians to slap on billboards. And centrists need people at the edges in order to exist at all.
schrodingers_cat
@Kathleen: In none of my comments have I stated that policing as it is currently practiced needs no reform. I was arguing about the politics of the defund the police slogan.
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: Are you saying I can’t make a joke or comment on this blog unless I know about an issue inside out?
Do other commenters or FPers have to pass this test too?
Baud
@Jinchi:
I obviously think so.
That’s not the phrase we’re debating.
I think it draws away from police violence and puts attention on whether police should exist (which isn’t the policy but that’s the impression the phrase leaves.). If the point is to sound extreme so Cory Booker can offer up solutions, that’s fine as long as we support Booker when he does that.
Agree. Never said it was.
Aleta
“Do Your Job!” or “Violent police are not doing their job” etc.
Make simple ads: The job of a police department is to bring a person before a court. The Constitution demands that right. Their job is to keep a person safe until the court date or to process bail. It’s not the police officer’s job to decide if a person is guilty. It’s not the officer’s job to punish or kill. When a department fails to do its job, and is losing millions of dollars, we must change it.
schrodingers_cat
@Aleta: Good suggestions.
WaterGirl
@WereBear: When you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t, you have the luxury of doing what’s right – without regard to anything else.
By “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” I refer, to the Republicans spin on what we do, not outcomes.
Booger
A big part of the monster that policing has become grew out of the war on
hippies and coloredsdrugs. If we, as a nation, could admit that marijuana is NBD, sue Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers into oblivion, then treat drug abuse as a medical issue, the nature of modern policing would change dramatically.That would still leave our Second Amendment tumor festering inside the body politic to poison the world in which the police must operate, but as they say…baby steps.
WaterGirl
@Jeffro: @Omnes Omnibus: @Chief Oshkosh:
I sent Laura Too a note with that, and a link to this thread, in case she has contacts who might be interested that suggestion.
LivingInExile
@rikyrah: I like the way you think.
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m not telling you what you can’t or can’t say in a comment. I’m just saying that maybe that one joke didn’t quite work the way you wanted.
WaterGirl
@The Thin Black Duke:
We may as well be saying:
WaterGirl
@Aleta: Good news! Those sound a lot like 8 Can’t Wait.
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: Fair enough.
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: Judging from the overall reaction, I think you are right.
cain
It is for me.. I have no idea what defund the police means – it can mean any number of things.
Mike in NC
“Defunding the police” is yet another FOX News bullshit talking point, exactly like “open borders”.
cain
@Fair Economist:
I’ve always said that the costs of a city are fixed.. you will always pay the same taxes relative to the population – you can choose to put that money in police or in community programs. But you go down the police route, you get less than you put in.
Ruckus
Was thinking about this tweet from Ben Collins that Anne Laurie posted yesterday, of the small town people coming out with guns to stop ANTIFA, which is never coming to their towns. These are small towns with few cops, a lot of the time it’s probably the county sheriff that is their law enforcement. They are white as white gets and probably for a lot of them the only person of color they see is on TV, probably faux not news, and they don’t have or even know where to buy a clue who or what ANTIFA is, other than the current boogey man du jour. The right, including evangelical churches, the news, politicians, has been feeding this fear for decades. Much of the police are convinced that the minorities are going to raise up and kill them all because they know what they have been doing all these years. They think/know that people can’t protest peacefully because everything in their lives is an attack upon them. They think that people hate them, because they know what they have done, even the ones who haven’t actually been terrorists themselves know that many others have been and that they have been protected. You look at a police line in the street and it’s highly equipped for killing/beating/damaging humans. It’s never just a person who might help you, it’s always a person who might kill you. We live in the fear that the people that are supposed to help us are over prepared to kill and massively maim us. I see that in myself and I’m an old white guy who has never had any ligit reason to think that way. A black male of any age knows that any day may be their last and not because of anything they have done, but because of how they look.
Overhaul the police dept? Not good enough. Start over as Camden did? Absolutely the minimum. I’ve seen LA county sheriffs with blackjacks, tasers, huge knives, a nightstick, a gun with 4 extra clips (yes I said fucking clips) and far more than one or two, most of them. I don’t know what the best plan of action is but I know starting over is better than just trying to reform a completely broken system. What will that look like? Well we have a model that worked, maybe we should put as much effort into the reformatting of police departments as we have of how to fund turning them into a sub military units that compete with our almost constant war culture that the US has been in since WWII, but especially the last 20 yrs. We live as subjects not as citizens in this culture. And the cops are the enforcers of that concept. We need to reestablish the concept of citizens, of citizenship, not of subjects who work to support those that desire subservience of us and our abilities.
MattF
@Mike in NC: ‘Defunding the police’ is just the start, according to FOX.
Downpuppy
Little late, but I like the term “Deboot”
Sounds like Reboot, but gets the boot off the face.
PJ
@Baud:
@cain:
@Mike in NC:
“Defund the Police”, like “Abolish the Police” before it, is a terrible slogan courtesy of leftist Twitter. It conveys nothing about actually addressing the problem of police violence and lack of accountability. Cutting the budget of a police department in half does nothing to stop police officers from killing or beating up on people of color, protecting each other when it happens, and leaving them immune from most criminal prosecution and almost all civil litigation. Moreover, if you have to explain that what you mean is “well, actually, we don’t want to eliminate the police budget or abolish police entirely, what we want is this list of X reforms”, you are losing, and a f#cking idiot.
Poor and working class people don’t want police abolished – they are the ones who bear the brunt of most crime (and rich people and businesses can always hire private security.) They want to not be harassed, beaten, or killed by police, for police to be held accountable when they do, and for police to do their actual jobs. This means reform and rebuilding and retraining police, not just cutting their budgets or eliminating them entirely.
Kathleen
@schrodingers_cat: I know that and I agree with you. I was just expanding on the notion that reform is not tied to “defunding”.
I give up. I am evidently too incoherent or not smart enough or not cool enough to post comments here. I’ve had it.
LAC
@syphonblue: Thank you.
@rp: Jaysus, what you just said encompasses the problem with this blog. “Listen, uuuuh, people of color, my brothers, oh… and sisters. If you want to make a movement work, can you smooth out the rough edges and get a get some nice words in there and do not yell so loud?”
Newsflash, we have been in this for for a looooong time. It is not a question of marketing.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
“Republicans are going to call us socialists no matter what we do, so we might as well give them the real thing.” ~ Cynthia Nixon.
She lost in a crushing landslide.
So there’s that.
Bill Arnold
@MisterForkbeard:
Late to thread, but this is good.
Perhaps also “Totally Reform the XXX Police Department”
The BLM protests made it clearer which police forces are probably unfixable and should be Totally Reformed.
Like Caterpillar -> Chrysalis -> Butterfly. (Perhaps)
WaterGirl
@Kathleen:
I always appreciate your comments, so I disagree on all points. I’m sorry you don’t feel heard or understood today, but I would hate to see you go away.
Chris Johnson
How about ‘FUCK THE POLICE’?
hoo boy are there a lot of people here desperate to make Democrats embrace the police in this historical moment. I spy shenanigans. And second-order shenanigans: the purpose of this kind of shenanigans is to get echoed and amplified by useful idiots.
Right now ‘disband the police’ is the SOFT option.
tam1MI
If nothing else, “Defund the Police” should be yet another Far Left slogan that Joe Biden can define himself as the moderate alternative to.
LongHairedWeirdo
You know, it strikes me that Camden basically did exactly what a managed bankruptcy is supposed to do, when a corporation is taken over by venture capitalists.
The VCs will use the bankruptcy to void all contracts, and renegotiate, etc., and then emerge from the bankruptcy with a new business plan. If a business is unionized, the ability to void union contracts is usually one of the most sought-after goals.
It sounds like Camden did exactly that, to allow a new organization to be built from first principles (i.e., with a new “business plan”). I wonder if one of the reasons this was necessary was the police union’s ability to prevent reforms past a certain point. (I hate to think poorly of a union, but we know police unions exist to protect the police, and that means opposing the public in questions about corruption and abuse of power by cops.)
Kathleen
@WaterGirl: Thank you, Water Girl. I needed that.
debbie
I can get behind this. Those $#@% FOPs give unions a bad name.
WaterGirl
@Kathleen: Oh, good. Wasn’t sure you would see it, but I hoped you would.
jayjaybear
Trying to couch things in an attempt to prevent the right wing from LYING THEIR ASSES OFF ABOUT IT is a fool’s game. Anyone who’s still listening to the American Fascist Party is a lost cause, anyway, and doesn’t really need the GOP’s guidance to extract exactly the wrong message from ANYTHING the Democrats try to do.
schrodingers_cat
@Kathleen: Please don’t leave.
Ascap_scab
Way back when I used to live in Sunnyvale, CA, (some 40 years ago) they had “Public Safety Officers” and the way it worked was the police and fire departments were combined and officers rotated every eighteen months from fire to police and back.
Not only did this cross train everyone to do both jobs when there was an emergency, but it allowed officers to get a reprieve from the constant feeling they were under attack no matter how good a job they did.
I’ve never heard of a rap video saying “Fuck the Firemen”.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Ascap_scab: I’ve often thought of that… we might need more police (so the ones involved aren’t overworked), and we might need some way of rotating cops out so they don’t get stressed. My mom was a nurse, and at one point rotated out of something like ICU to maternity for a breather – lots more happy outcomes in maternity, though the tragedies are possibly even more heartbreaking.
The fire department might not be the sort of low risk rotation I’d imagined, but a fire is, at least, impersonal and the risks are more easily understood than risks posed by people.
I’d sure like to hear that we’re not doing ridiculous shifts, like night shift, then swing shift, then morning shift (it’s easier to sync up sleep if you reverse it – morning/swing/night means you just stay up later on the days between changing shifts – a lot easier than going to be *earlier* and expecting to sleep).
And I’m sure there are more reforms that could be made, with an eye towards making police work a reasonable middle class career, and a chance to honest-to-goodness serve and protect the community. Reform shouldn’t just be viewed as restrictions on police; there should be some easily identified benefits for the cops, too. It’s a lot easier to keep violence down when cops are less likely to feel like an overheated pressure cooker.
(I wonder if Instant Pot will make that analogy go away….)