Grammypat asks whether liquid pool chlorine can be used in place of bleach. I’ve done a little Google research, and it looks to me like liquid pool chlorine is twice as concentrated as bleach – 12% sodium hypochlorite versus 6%, so dilute it with equal quantities of water. I can’t see any other ingredients or any reason it shouldn’t be able to be used in the same way.
Keep in mind not to mix either of them with other cleaning products – that can produce chlorine, which will wreck your lungs faster than covid-19 will.
Open thread!
HRA
I had an above ground Redwood pool for many years. The chlorine was put in the pool when it was shut down for the day and after the water was tested to determine how much was needed. That was right before dark.
HumboldtBlue
Anything for a distraction at this point after reading about the travel agent from Westlake Village who led a group of travelers to Morocco on March 9. Told my sister, who was already stuck in Morocco to say hi.
Jerry Clower tells a Christmas story.
grammypat
WOW! Talk about a full-service blog. Around 30 min for not just a response, but a PSA post. Thank you.
trollhattan
Depends, but probably. Don’t mix up regular chlorine and the shock stuff.
Your best bet is to get the MSDS (material safety data sheet) and check. Here’s a random example. It’s calcium hypochlorite, not sodium hypochlorite.
Once you have the concentration, there will be math.
Gin & Tonic
It’s been a while since we’ve had a bash-Wilmer thread.
Renie
@Gin & Tonic: he sounds so nice in his response
Gin & Tonic
@trollhattan: What they sell at the Great Orange Satan (not that one) is sodium hypochlorite 10%.
Bill Arnold
Or, I suspect, damage them such that COVID-19 is more likely to kill you. (Not sure, but please be careful with this people. I’m lucky to have survived childhood; I quickly found most of the “interesting” chemicals one can buy in grocery and hardware stores.)
sdhays
@Gin & Tonic: I wonder what he thinks he’s doing to “make sure we don’t have an economic meltdown”. I saw Joe Biden make some fairly detailed proposals, as has Elizabeth Warren. Warren and Sanders both have responsibilities in the Senate, but frankly, the action there is between the House and White House. The best the Senate can hope to do is just not get in the way too much (which is probably asking too much, but that’s where we are).
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
You safety fu is out of date. They changed the official name from MSDS to SDS (Safety Data Sheet) at least 5 years ago. At the same time, they streamlined the information the SDS is supposed to contain to make it easier to read and understand. Now if they can just stop the companies from ass covering to the point that the SDS for sodium chloride makes you think it’s dangerous.
sdhays
@Renie: Likable, even. Unlike that woman, what was her name? //
(In case you’re wondering, the name is irrelevant.)
grammypat
@trollhattan: My understanding is that the granules are calcium hypochlorite and the liquid is sodium hypochlorite (i.e. the same as household bleach).
Since the household stuff seems to be non-existent in the grocery stores, I was wandering in the pool maintenance area and found that the liquid pool chlorine was readily available.
Since I’m a perpetual-4-yr-old who’s always asking “Why?” or, in this case, “Why not?” I thought that it could be a reasonable substitute.
ETA: …. and then asked an expert.
Cheryl Rofer
@Roger Moore: The first time I got a bottle of potassium chloride with warnings on it that made it sound like hexamethyldeath, I knew we were screwed.
Gin & Tonic
@grammypat: From the couple of SDS’s I’ve looked at, the granular/tablet stuff tends to be more complex chemicals that I (who intentionally took no chemistry after high school) don’t understand at all.
grammypat
@Gin & Tonic: We’re not talking granules/tablets. Just the LIQUID stuff.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
The correct term is “Home Desperate”.
Calouste
@Gin & Tonic:
Well, isn’t that just the level of decisiveness and multi-tasking we should be looking for in a President in a time of crisis.
Gravenstone
@Roger Moore: Sadly, the SDS has always been at least 90% legal ass covering. But there will be nuggets of useful information to be gleaned once you know where to look.
trollhattan
@grammypat:
You can also make your own chlorine from salt, with a gizmo like this. I have a backpacker version called Miox that does the same thing. The amounts are a little…small for household use, but good if zombies follow the corona.
“Saltwater” swimming pools use the technology in lieu of standard chlorination.
Roger Moore
@Cheryl Rofer:
It’s the same as my basic problem with all the Prop 65 warnings we get here in California. They’ve drawn the rules for what kinds of things need to be labeled so broadly, and corporate lawyers are so worried about covering their collective asses, that all kinds of stuff gets labeled that really shouldn’t be. When people see a Prop 65 warning every time they go into Starbucks*, it makes them tune out warnings for stuff that’s genuinely hazardous.
*Roasted coffee contains traces of acrylamide, a chemical “known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm”. There’s no indication that the amounts that wind up in brewed coffee are a threat to human health.
Elizabelle
From the Hill:
The Senate passed the House’s coronavirus aid package on Wednesday, sending it to [Trump] who is expected to sign it.
Senators voted 90-8 on the bill that passed the House in a middle-of-the-night Saturday vote but needed dozens of pages of corrections and changes, which cleared the chamber on Monday.
…. The bill approved Wednesday bolsters unemployment insurance and guarantees free diagnostic testing for the coronavirus.
It also provides up to 10 days of paid sick leave for some workers. It caps that at companies with 500 employees and would allow for those with fewer than 50 to apply for a waiver.
…. GOP senators have bristled, in particular, over the paid sick leave provisions over concerns that it will negatively impact small businesses, some of which are already facing closure and potential layoffs because of the economic impact of the coronavirus.
Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) railed against the bill, as well as Congress’s larger rush to likely spend hundreds of billions of dollars.
“There is a herd mentality around this building right now where a lot of normally smart people are literally saying things like: The most important thing is to be fast, even if the ideas that are being advocated for are not really ready for prime time and can’t really withstand the scrutiny of debate. That is a really dumb idea,” Sasse said.
…. Eight Republicans voted against the bill: Sens. Marsha Blackburn (Tenn.), James Inhofe (Okla.), Ron Johnson (Wis.), James Lankford (Okla.), Mike Lee(Utah), [Rand] Paul [Kentucky], [Ben] Sasse [Nebraska] and Tim Scott (S.C.)
I am a little surprised at Tim Scott of South Carolina. Otherwise the usual suspects.
moops
@sdhays: If Sanders wants to help he can walk across the the hall in DC and poke his finger in Rand Paul’s face and tell him to knock it off. Maybe have his Bernie Bros faithful flooding Paul’s phone line.
Gravenstone
I must have missed the lecture where that was assigned as the synonym for generic scary chemical substance, but it’s damn prevalent in the industry.
mrmoshpotato
@Gin & Tonic: He’s dealing with a global crisis? He alone can fix it?
Ugh. Some forest knitting would calm his nerves.
Gravenstone
@Roger Moore: I prefer “Home Despot”.
mrmoshpotato
@Gin & Tonic: LOL More Sataning More Deviling
Mmmmmm deviled eggs – evilly delicious.
sdhays
@moops: He’s not part of the Democratic establishment, so he’s not really part of the problem. //
grammypat
@trollhattan: Just trying to get by … not looking for anything fancy.
I use it around the house for regular things, but also use it in the holding tanks of my RV instead of the formaldehyde (sp?) -based stuff that’s normally sold for that purpose.
Call it a life-hack x2 ;-)
mrmoshpotato
@Roger Moore: California – You probably have cancer now. :)
Cheryl Rofer
@Gravenstone: It’s been a thing ever since I can remember, and that’s a long time.
LongHairedWeirdo
Also, remember that the quantities of chlorine used for, e.g., disinfecting water or surfaces requires *time*. It just takes a small amount of chlorine, and about 30 minutes (per EPA guidelines, to render water that “may or may not contain microbes” safe to drink. It takes more to disinfect a surface, because you know the surface won’t stay wet (and hence, won’t stay in contact with the chlorine) as long.
Of course, if you’re taking precautions, you don’t need to be as careful – no need for a stop watch to make sure surfaces stay wet long enough. Be *careful* anyway; just, remember that you don’t even know if there’s anything there to kill yet, so you don’t need to go all OCD over things.
There’s something else to keep in mind. The CDC says wash you hands for a full 20 seconds, and there’s a reason for that. The virus that causes Covid-19 has a lipid (fat) based membrane – soapy water will dissolve the son-of-a-something-or-other, killing it, but, it takes time. Still, if you can’t force yourself to stay still for 20 full seconds (I confess, when I’ve just had a bath, haven’t even dressed, and I have to pee, I sure don’t time my handwash!), remember that longer is better; anything is better than nothing; and, without a good rinse-and-dry, anything *less* that 20 seconds won’t help enough.
See, 10 seconds might be enough to get all the dirt in your hands into sudsy suspension, and a good rinse would then wash it down the drain, with a paper towel soaking up any remnants. But if you wipe your hands on anything other than a clean paper towel or cloth, you could be recontaminating them.
Obviously, no health professional will recommend anything less than the CDC guidelines, and I’m not either. The point is, if you’re being willful (and, let’s be honest – a bit willfully stupid, and it happens to the best of us – and, to me, too!), it’s still ten times better to wash your hands just a bit, than to skip because “no way I’m going to stand there and count to 20”.
mrmoshpotato
@moops: Maybe just punch Rand Paul.
Robert Sneddon
Did it warn you it was RADIOACTIVE hexamethyldeath? A long time back I saw a Youtuber wandering down the “no-sodium salt” aisle of a supermarket with a scintillometer. Hilarity ensued.
sdhays
@mrmoshpotato: I hear caning is a tradition in the Senate that could be ripe for a comeback.
moops
@grammypat: Both calcium hypochlorite and sodium hypochlorite can be used to generate a chlorinated water (ie. bleach). Both get used during infection outbreaks. The solid forms travel better and can get mixed on-site with local water sources. You are shooting for a 0.05% hypochlorite solution for general sanitation effectiveness. The solid forms of it should have mixing instructions.
moops
@sdhays: No, he is an Independent. Which means he can Independently walk over to Rand Paul’s office and discuss matters of Senate voting. That’s the whole point of being Independent.
Aziz, light!
@Roger Moore: Sodium chloride is exceptionally dangerous when it comes into contact with dihydrogen monoxide. (But you can neutralize it by adding at least one pound of wheat-based pasta to the reaction chamber.)
moops
To be more specific for Balloon Juicers
1 gallon of water + 4 tablespoons dry 68% strength calcium hypochlorite = 1 gallon of 5% strength bleach.
Then you can dilute that appropriately for your sanitation needs. Only mix up as much as you need for about a week at a time to keep the strength correct.
mrmoshpotato
@Aziz, light!: I hear you have to boil the solution for best results.
Sure Lurkalot
@HumboldtBlue: Hmmm. I recently met my sister’s neighbors, an endocrinologist and his wife, late 50’s or early 60’s, who left last Monday for Morocco. I heard the tour was canceled and they’re weaving their way back home. I couldn’t believe they went. They seemed so…sensible.
Sister Golden Bear
@mrmoshpotato: Obligatory Joe Jackson “Cancer”
Yutsano
@moops: Silly moops! Rand isn’t a Democrat! Wilmer only has harsh words for DA STABBLISHMENT!!!
Brian
@Roger Moore: agreed. I still refer to them as MSDS sometimes and honestly the GHS messes me up compared to the old NFPA. The documents are seriously just CYA docs most of the time anyway. Great for shipping classes and PELs if they exist but useless otherwise
My advice. If you don’t know what you have. Don’t use it. Too many reactions with other common cleaners.
smedley the uncertain
@Gravenstone: Also often referred to as *ethylmethylbadshit*.
Vlo
@trollhattan: Go to EPA.gov. You can search by the EPA no. or the brand to see if it approved for this virus or others. I was trying to make calculations too but didn’t find the bleach I bought from CVS on this list. I’m still searching for bleach too!
J R in WV
We used the term ethyl,methyl,death at WV DEP — at least in the IT department. DAQ may have had a more technical term.
I was exposed to Carbon Di Sulfide while working for DEP, the plant was a RR track and a chain link fence away from our leaky cinder-block offices. The MSDS (or SDS as I have been told, I retired before that change took place) told us that the whole body rash I had was probably from that. Luckily I don’t appear to have had the central nervous system damage, but I still have the weeping scabby sores on my shins from time to time.
We used a permanganate in our redwood hot tub, released O2 which is less dangerous than chlorine… seemed to work OK. Back when we still had the hot tub. It sprung leaks after about 10 ears, which was the length of the guarantee, didn’t matter ’cause the maker went bankrupt a couple of years after we bought it. Was surely nice!
miroker
@Roger Moore:
Home Despot