I’m enjoying the heck out of the Biden win in SC. Based on current reporting, it seems to piss on a bunch of narratives. Like, “young black voters are VT Jesus’ base”. Nope, Joe won those. And, “turnout will be boosted because Bern is in the race”. Doesn’t seem to be happening in this reality.
To me though, it’s amazing that Warren is not at least the close second. It makes no sense. She’s got the right combo of smarts with policies that means she’d be effective. Yet, no. It’d be great if we dealt with misogyny & misogynoir on the left. Plus understood that pundits no longer report – they infect the left with doubt and elevate the loudest yet least effective voices in the room. Volume is not effectiveness. I am not a Warren supporter, for full disclosure. But I’m also not going to ignore a big, nasty elephant in the room. We’re supposed to be better, more reasonable. Yet here we are. I won’t even remotely antagonize a Warren supporter for the disappointment they may feel right now. But I will say, there’s 1900+ delegates to be earned. We don’t know who will get them yet. Support who you think meets the criteria. Support the nom in the general. And get those downballot races worked out too. That’s where the real power is hiding. In honor of women running for office, here’s some music to regroup to. There’s still a ton of delegates out there. Open thread for night owls. I’m going to try to get some sleep or something like it.
Mary G
RIP Trader Joe.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
people say misogyny, but Hillary won the nomination and the south carolina primary in a walk.
It has to be more than that.
opiejeanne
@Mary G: Oh, no!
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: I think it’s something like that, but convoluted. The media, the pundits and some voters keep saying they’d like to vote for Warren but after Hillary they’re convinced a woman can’t win, and they totally miss the fact that Hillary did, in fact, win by nearly 3 million votes.
This is really annoying to watch and when I respond to these people I feel like the little Dutch boy trying to stop the leaking dike.
ruemara
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: I’d say the issue starts before SC. She was discounted long before the first ballot was cast and Sanders was presented as the new hip & exciting choice that everyone was flocking to. Except for when Buttigieg was new hip and exciting. Yet Warren never got a moment of that once she was running. When you get to the black voting blocks, there’s 2 things non-black people fail to consider: 1. We are trying to triangulate based on white people’s voting possibilities. 2. We want someone who comes with personal connection to our communities, evidence of work on our behalf (with both good & bad outcomes considered), who also seems to respect us.
It’s a sweet spot that often seems overlooked by punditry.
piratedan
When it comes to Warren, she’s everything the media claims to love but secretly loathes…. she is smart, hardworking, and accomplished. She actually knows what she’s talking about and forces them to up their game and do the same… she forces them to talk policy and study up and lets face it… they fucking hate that… they adore pithy GOP framing… its so much easier to just sit back and snipe or cram everything into the ready made horse race narrative… she makes voters do the same and when you got more people concerned about the bachelor or the masked singer than who makes the decisions about your healthcare… well there you are.
Mnemosyne
I think it’s partly misogyny — like Warren getting magically left off of polls when she was in third place — and partly that she bought into Bernie’s propaganda and thought he really did have a major movement behind him that she could win over to her side. She wasn’t the only candidate who got suckered by that — Kamala went down in part because of that as well — but it definitely depressed her numbers to tie herself so closely to a guy who is deeply unpopular with the actual base of the party, despite what the Twitter loudmouths love to claim.
I was waiting for these results before I filled out my mail-in ballot because I pledged to listen to Black voters this time around. Biden it is.
Mnemosyne
Slightly OT, but does anyone know why ABL took her Twitter account private? I’m assuming she came under attack by the Bros for saying snarky things about their Personal Jesus, but I don’t actually know.
hells littlest angel
@piratedan: All that, plus she’s been cast as unlikable — even though she is one of the most likable people you’ll ever meet.
Lacuna Synecdoche
Since we’re doing music, here are three cuts from the new Grimes album – just released a couple days ago:
Grimes – Delete Forever
You know how Sci-Fi films sometimes try to set a tone by playing futuristic music, but it usually fails – because how the hell do you make a song that sounds like it’s from a world that hasn’t been invented yet? Well, Grimes just did it. 4ÆM is the song every Sci-Fi director and music editor has been trying to create for their film for the past 40 years.
Grimes – 4ÆM (Audio Only)
Grimes – Idoru – light, poppy, lush, and ethereal
eclare
@Mnemosyne: Same here, Biden it is on Tuesday.
NotMax
@Mnemosyne
Who can be just as mistaken or just as misguided or just as plain wrong as can be any other demographic.
IMHO: Primaries are not the place to proverbially hold your nose and vote for someone. If you truly believe that of all the names on the primary ballot Biden would make the best president, then (and only then) vote for him in the primary. If you truly believe it is someone else, cast your vote there to help her or him cross the 15% threshold.
John Revolta
Hmm. Seems to me that drawing big conclusions from SC is like drawing conclusions from IA or NH. None of these states are a good representation of the country overall. I’m glad that I don’t have to make up my mind just yet- next Tuesday is the first time we’ll get a look at a serious cross-section of Dem voters.
eclare
@NotMax: That would be nice in a year we are not confronted with the meanest and most ignorant person on the planet.
This is not the time for voting as a personal statement.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: Warren ended up looking like Bernie Lite to a lot of folk, maybe the perception was a media thing. She did have a problem of having a focused message, maybe not to her fanbase but to the average voter. She really did need ONE theme and hammer that.
NotMax
@eclare
In all honesty I fail to discern the logic. Voting for any Democrat listed is a vote abjuring the person I presume you refer to (who is not one of the choices offered that ballot).
Glass half full or half empty situation. At this point in the process is it jumping on a bandwagon or is it compounding an error? Which way one tips on that question is the motivator (again IMHO).
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: FWIW, I agree. Also assume primary vote totals are something candidates, parties, analysts, etc., take into account when assessing voter sentiment for all sorts of purposes.
Morzer
Maybe, just maybe, Warren isn’t that great of a politician? That’s not to her discredit as a human being, but it does hamper you with things like winning primaries. You can be smart, decent, hardworking and accomplished – and yet, somehow, not connect with the voters in the way that means you get the golden ticket. A lot of smart people with good plans and excellent qualifications just don’t have whatever it is that constitutes the secret sauce.
Barbara
@John Revolta: In isolation, yes, but in the aggregate, these four states offer a diverse perspective.
rikyrah
@John Revolta:
The majority of the Black population lives beneath the Mason Dixon line.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
Great point.
I don’t know. Biden’s most tangible connection to black communities is his association with Obama, who has not even endorsed Biden.
Warren has an excellent record on civil rights. A recent Mother Jones article notes the black women political leaders who endorsed Warren, and the degree to which her policy proposals seem clearly to help all women, and especially women of color.
But it is not just the media or pundits. Biden is known, and Sanders is brash and noisy. Warren is … just … there.
The three women in the race together only got 11 percent of the total vote. This means that even other women rejected them.
Warren and all the women candidates who are not Hillary Clinton seem to hit this invisible wall. People listen to them, even view them favorably in some early polls, and then don’t seem to be able to remember what they actually stand for, or that their positions are notably superior to those of many of the male candidates.
In the media filter, Warren falsely seems to be a white woman talking only to other older white women. And yet in reporting, such as the Mother Jones article, women of color who actually talk with her come away impressed. Sanders can talk about marching for civil rights once, in the 60s, and some people will somehow magically connect him with at least some black voters.
Kamala Harris was my original first choice. But I have always admired Warren. But I have probably read more about her positions than I have watched any TV coverage of her. And I don’t watch much CNN or the pundit shows.
I saw how Harris got neutralized, and how even among black voters, a hostile, largely male focused perspective was arrayed against her.
But on top of this, there is some filter that I don’t quite understand that is used to neutralize women candidates like Warren, Harris Klobuchar and even Gabbard, a filter that refuses to see them as serious or worthy of consideration. And women voters seem to buy into this as well as male voters; and it works across class and racial lines.
Obviously, it is not universal. Hillary Clinton mainly overcame it. Pelosi and other women leaders find ways to overcome it.
But we will see what happens with the Super Tuesday voting.
Starfish
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Her big message was opposition to the corruption of monied interests.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: I don’t think Hillary Clinton would have been able to overcome that barrier within the Democratic Party if her name was Hillary Rodham. That’s the reason the “dynasty” argument against Clinton pissed me off so much in 2016 (and still does today): it forecloses one of the only avenues women have to access power, not just in America but around the world, and wrongly conflates it with being born into a powerful family.
Starfish
@Brachiator: The part about Warren appealing to older white women is untrue. Those are the women who are more likely to say mean things about her where I live when people go out canvassing.
Ohio Mom
Morzer@17: I sadly agree, Warren is not the best politician in that she does not seem to excite enough voters, and I say that even though she is far and away my favorite.
I’m at at peace voting for Biden later this month. Warren has moved the public discourse a lot, and she will still be in the Senate.
In the meantime, she is a kamikaze pilot for all that is good. Staying in the primaries, she is able to puncture Bloomberg’s balloon and (my theory) pull away some Bernie voters. Talk about a team player! Go Liz!
Starfish
@Betty Cracker: I was reluctant about dynasties after 8 years of GWB the lesser.
Sab
@Ohio Mom: Yes. Go Liz!
PaulWartenberg
@Brachiator:
I am coming from the same viewpoint here re: Warren.
And Rue, thank you for this thread.
Geminid
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I think Climate Change would have been a great theme to hammer. Clean energy jobs, conservation jobs. Green Infrastructure! A positive contrast to Sanders’ climate change plan. Corruption is important, but it is a negative theme not a positive one like clean energy. Warren does positive better than negative.
Betty Cracker
@Starfish: It’s understandable; political power shouldn’t be a family heirloom. But IMO, a woman’s active and valuable political partnership with a spouse shouldn’t be treated the same as a child inheriting a parent’s political connections, especially in a society where it’s damn hard for a woman to build her own political base, regardless of her merits.
@Ohio Mom: It’ll be interesting to see where Warren’s support goes if she drops out after Super Tuesday. The Bernie die-hards on Twitter are being super-obnoxious about it already, basically accusing Warren angling for Biden’s VP pick for not dropping out RIGHT NOW and endorsing Sanders.
My guess is if it comes down to Biden vs. Sanders, her supporters would split between the two. If Warren is still in the race by the time I get to vote on 3/17, I’ll vote for her. If she drops out, I’m not sure what I’ll do with my primary vote.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Everyone who repeats the “dynasty” BS should state that they would oppose Michelle Obama for president. (Not that she’s interested in the job, but it’s a useful exercise in confirming sincerity.)
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
But I recall that Hillary exhibited potential political star power in college. I don’t know what might have happened had she chose an independent political career instead of marrying Bill Clinton.
This gets very complicated. I tend to judge dynastic connections negatively, and I had to remind myself to look at specific individuals, because Robert Kennedy has always been a political hero for me and yet he obviously rode on his brother’s coattails. But it would be a cold day in hell before I would consider Ivanka Trump, for example, to be a suitable candidate for any political office.
I hear what you are saying about dynasties, and yet Theresa May, Angela Merkel, some of the women political leaders in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the current and a former prime minister of New Zealand, among others, all seemed to get where they are without dynastic family connections. These are just a few examples, and a hopeful sign for the future, but yeh, we have not achieved any nirvana of political equality.
And of course, Kamala Harris had been dismissed by some because of a past personal connection to Willie Brown.
So, yes, women have to jump all kinds of hurdles to succeed in politics, but we still have to watch out for political opportunists of all genders using family connections to get ahead who have more ambition than talent.
bmoak
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t know exactly why, but yesterday in particular, her mentions were getting deluged by Berniestans. I’m guessing there was a mass effort to brigade her by digging up old posts of hers and mass reporting them to get her suspended or banned. It’s a common Gamergate/Comicsgate tactic.
Brachiator
@Baud:
I would never consider Michelle Obama to be a serious candidate for president just because of her name, or her otherwise considerable qualities as a human being. This does not automatically make her a capable politician.
And even with Hillary Clinton, it was not just that she had been beside Bill Clinton for years and operated as a political insider. She turned out to be a good senator and an excellent secretary of state.
low-tech cyclist
I’m hoping she stays in. There’s a clear rationale for Buttigieg and Klobuchar to drop out on Wednesday – don’t want to fracture the moderate vote too many ways and give Bernie the win.
But that’s not Warren’s situation, and there’s still a strong argument that she’s the person we need as President in 2021, so there’s a clear reason for her to stay in the race until it’s clear who the winner will be.
But the only argument I can see for her withdrawing is to clear the ‘liberal’ lane for Bernie, and I can’t see her dropping out for that reason.
In the meantime, she might pick up some of Buttigieg’s and Klobuchar’s supporters. I don’t think there’s much chance of a convention that goes past the first ballot, but if that possibility materializes, I could still see her being an acceptable choice to both sides, and I hope she stays in for now on that account – plus saying a bunch of things that need to be said, with maybe better chance to be heard, once Pete and Amy call it quits.
Brachiator
@Starfish:
Yes. I tried to emphasize that the filtered view that Warren only appeals to older white women is false.
Warren was not my first choice for president because I don’t agree with some of her key policies. And yet I think that she is already one of the best persons to ever serve in the Senate.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: The U.S. has its own brand of sexism, just as it has its unique racism, so I’m not sure the examples of Maggie Thatcher, et al, are all that instructive. My personal theory for why the UK tends to be less sexist overall than the U.S. is that they’ve had queens.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
Oh, for sure, in this regard, the US has not caught up to much of the rest of the world.
And yeah, the UK, went through a long period of adjustment. The barons could not accept Matilda as the successor to Henry I, but by the time of Victoria, the nobles sat Albert down and said, “Listen, dude. You ain’t King Regent or even King Consort, and we don’t want to hear any noise about you being equal to or even an official advisor to the Queen. Otherwise your ass will be Prince Albert in a can.”
Having had queens makes it a piece of cake to have women prime ministers.
And even though Trump is supposedly leader of the free world, Angela Merkel is arguably the most important contemporary Western leader.
The US has a lot of catching up to do.
Rugosa
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I prefer Warren to Sanders but I’m happy to have her stay in the Senate, where she can turn his policies into legislation. The best things we can do are (1) get out the vote to elect as many Dems as possible in the House and Senate and (2) urge our Senators to end the filibuster.
Betty
@opiejeanne: I have had these conversations as well. It’s maddening. It appears to be Hillary’s legacy, having lost twice. The MSM have encouraged that premise as well.
Chris Johnson
Warren dropping out would literally be throwing it to Sanders. I’m not happy with that and would rather she didn’t do any such thing. If you pay attention to the dirtbag left (being a refugee from it, I know where to look to see what they’re talking about before you get wind of it) you can see that they are DESPERATE to get rid of her, and that’s why I’m sticking with her. It’s a tip-off. They ought to be LOVING her, she is literally on the same side that Bernie is supposed to be on. To have ’em hating her so passionately means that they are not what they’re supposed to be.
Which is not news to anybody here, but man did it take me a while for the penny to drop.
Interestingly it’s also evidence that she’s not controlled by Russia or oligarchs or the Village. Very obviously not the village: they are cheating against her something fierce, like literally leaving her off of polls and shit. If those same people want Biden so badly, doesn’t that suggest there are problems with Biden?
I’ll go a step further. If you want to get rid of Bernie, you ought to be throwing all your support behind Warren, not going ‘ew another lefty’ and trying to get rid of her. She, and nobody else, is your firewall against Bernieland.
Starfish
@low-tech cyclist: I find the way that some supporters of certain candidates have been trying to get Buttigieg to drop out even though he has both more money and more delegate votes than them to be odd.
suilebhan
I’m convinced that our Fourth Estate is at least partly responsible for Warren’s results. Just watch Chris Matthews doing his “shut up and smile” routine with her. EW’s policy positions certainly resonate with me. Unfortunately, I live in Georgia and won’t get to vote until a few weeks after SuperT. I certainly hope she’ll be a viable choice by then.
Thanks for the Kate Bush video. I sure do dig me some “Hounds of Love” – one of my favorite albums. (And yes, I mean vinyl.)
Blue no matter who.
Cathie from Canada
I am concluding that Democrats want this election to be Trump vs Normal, not Trump vs Woman.
In that sense, either Sanders or Biden will do, though Biden certainly wins on the “normal” side compared to Bernie. But Bernie is quick-witted, and clearer about his goals, so that is attractive to Dems too.
Also, I think Democrats have been more affected by Republican swiftboating of Biden than they ever admitted. Biden did not have a quick and crushing response, so the whole “Hunter scandal” and “Biden dirt” framing made Democrats distrustful that Biden would prevail in the general election.
Elizabelle
@Cathie from Canada: That’s an incisive comment. Think you might be right there.
@suilebhan: Agreed. Big media is toxic and has way too much power and is way too misogynistic.
I am sad at how our marvelous candidates got smashed, many for no fault of their own. Horse race and a media wired for Republicans and big money.
ruemara
@Brachiator: Dude. please don’t tell me about Warren being excellent on civil rights. Please. She is excellent in talking about it. Biden has the black vote because he is connected to our communities. You are doing what a lot of people do, ascribing talk to presence. Biden has made huge errors, but the reason why older reliable voters like him is they know he’s not malicious and he’s done the work – even when his choice is a mistake.. It’s not just being adjacent to Obama
@Cathie from Canada: Bernie is quick witted & clear about his goals? He’s not. Not even a little. He’s a bumpersticker goal, with ZERO plan to do it, can’t pivot to save his life and is entirely an example of hype > substance. Warren is the Bernie people think Bernie is. And she’s getting totaled because vagina and not lying about the ease of structural change coming about due to a rally.
UncleEbeneezer
Super-late to this thread but here’s my takeaway on Warren (who I will vote for on Tuesday): A whole lot of Bernie supporters and Leftists in general, talk a good game about how it’s all about policies, ideas and they’d totally vote for a woman if only she met their Progressive standard. Well, Warren was precisely that and almost identical to Bernie in her policies, sometimes being even MORE progressive and definitely showing much greater attention to detail and actual path-to-legislation than Bernie. And yet…Bernie supporters refused to budge. Because it’s never been about policies or ideas, it’s always been about HIM, and him alone. Their refusal to move to ANYONE else, along with the surplus of rich, white dudez who just HAD to jump in the race, are why we can’t have nice things. The irony of course is that these same people who claim that taking down the 1% is the most important issue EVAH!!1! completely showed how full of shit they are by ignoring (or attacking) the candidate who actually proposed doing so, more than any other.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Based on what Black people have stated on Twitter and in other places, this is not correct. Biden has apparently been making himself available to Black politicians for fundraising and events since he was first elected Vice President, and probably before. He’s been a speaker at the NAACP convention almost every year. He has done the legwork to help Black politicians get elected, so that has earned him a certain amount of trust that he would continue to support them if he becomes president.
None of this fits the preferred narrative that the MSM has about Biden, so it doesn’t often get reported, but it’s out there. Biden has done the legwork and built relationships, which is vital for a presidential race.
Mnemosyne
@UncleEbeneezer:
This. Warren has an actual, detailed plan to start dismantling our oligarchy and make our society more equitable, but that’s not what the dirtbag left wants. They want white men to be in charge again, only this time from the liberal side, and that’s what Bernie represents to them. That’s why Warren is a snake and a copycat for talking about policies she’s been touting since long before 2016.
Ken
I guess I am an anomaly, but with the exception of Tulsi, I would take any of the female candidates over any of the males, with Warren being at the top.
Subsole
@Mnemosyne:
What I’ve seen of the dirtbag left tells me they care a lot about impressing themselves with themselves. Or making money off same. Not much else to them.
In six years they’re gonna be telling everyone The System forced them to vote for David Duke. Ugh.
Subsole
@Chris Johnson:
Just curious what made the penny drop. Was it a general thing or a particular instance that just lit the clouds on fire? No judgement at all. I think I have a fair read on the leadership, but the real people in that camp puzzle me a bit.
Elizabelle
@UncleEbeneezer: Exactly. Word.
Jackals, you have all had great comments on this.
I don’t recommend this article if you want to keep your blood pressure down (and I’ve just skimmed it — too painful and aggravating to read). It’s a long, long article.
FTF NY Times:
The Pied Pipers of the Dirtbag Left Want to Lead Everyone to Bernie Sanders
It’s about Chapo Trap House, which appears to be mostly mouthy hipsterish males, with a few women in the mix. They’re misogynists, whether they recognize that or not.
“Let the hate feed you,” the co-host Amber A’Lee Frost added as the audience roared.
And it does. Especially toward other Democrats.
Supporters of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. are “gelatinous 100-year-olds.”
Former Mayor Pete Buttigieg is “a bloodless asexual.”
“The gayest thing about him is he descends from an ethnic group that’s like a little toy dog,” Ms. A’Lee Frost said.
… When Senator Elizabeth Warren’s name came up, the crowd made the sound of a snake hissing. She had accused Senator Bernie Sanders of saying that a woman could not beat President Trump, and so she is a snake.
“Yes, my sssssoldiers,” Mr. Menaker said.
…. When Hillary Clinton’s name came up, the reaction was nearly indistinguishable from a Trump rally.
“Lock her up,” the co-host Matt Christman said to the crowd.
The crowd began to chant: Lock her up. Lock her up.
“She never really cracked the glass ceiling,” Mr. Biederman said. “She more like fell down the glass staircase.”
During the three-hour show, there is little vision laid out for what they want, beyond a Sanders presidency. There is a vision for what they want destroyed and how good it will feel to do that. The idea of actually taking power is terrifying, and they say so.
“What’s scary is the idea that this could end,” Mr. Biederman said. “What’s scary is we’re not just tossing catharsis into the void, that this is something real. We are there.”
And the Sanders campaign maintains a close relationship with the podcast. His senior adviser, David Sirota, and his national press secretary, Briahna Joy Gray, have also been on the podcast. At the Iowa show, a Sanders volunteer stood at the door with fliers and pins to hand out and an email list to gather names.
Their followers — on the night in Iowa City more than 700 strong — come to hear them rage for three hours against the student debt, the high rent, the dead-end creative class jobs, and the feeling of hopelessness fighting against a liberal political establishment that seems polite when they are angry.
They were promised a better life, a more dignified life, and they are done waiting for it.
But what some call an exciting dialogue can feel exclusionary to others.
“‘Chapo Trap House,’ the entire Dirtbag Left, have tapped that male privilege of intimidating people into assuming you’re cool,” said Amanda Marcotte, a liberal feminist writer for Salon. “It reminds me of when we pretended that ‘Jackass’ was funny back in the day, just so dudes wouldn’t bully you about not liking it.” (Ms. Marcotte has been vocal in her criticism of “Chapo Trap House” and is the subject of mocking attention from the Dirtbag universe.)
Gives you the flavor of the article. These people are bitter and ugly and are out to destroy those who could help better their situation.
Do you want to be a builder or a destroyer?
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Black Twitter is not always a reliable guide to the range of black voter sentiment. And Biden’s support of black political candidates is not necessarily a strong connection to black communities.
Biden was Obama’s VP and was clearly supportive of his president. This says a lot when there are white folk, including some white liberal political leaders, who nonetheless expect black people to be followers, not equals or their leaders.
Brachiator
@UncleEbeneezer:
Yep. You nailed it. Some Sanders supporters are like a modern Manson family. Their cult like devotion to him is bizarre. And it seems to have especially infected the younger Sanders followers.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
Actually, I was going by the NAACP legislative report card. They rated Warren at 100 percent. That ain’t just talk.