Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Yes we did.

Lighten up, Francis.

Four legs? good! two legs? we’re not so sure…

I’m going back to the respite thread.

… down to kool-aid drinkers and next of kin at the trump White House

Good luck with your asparagus.

Han shot first.

Dinky Hocker shoots smack!

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

We can agree to disagree, but i’m right.

This blog goes to 11…

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Shock troops for the Unitarian Jihad.

Militantly superior in their own minds…

Call the National Guard if your insurrection lasts more than four hours.

… makes me wish i had hoarded more linguine

No one could have predicted…

All your base are belong to Tunch.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Not all heroes wear capes.

I can’t take this shit today. I just can’t.

You are here: Home / Politics / America / South Carolina Democratic Primary Debate Open Thread Part Twoish

South Carolina Democratic Primary Debate Open Thread Part Twoish

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South Carolina Democratic Primary Debate Open Thread Part Twoish 1

Since Cole’s post of the picture of Steve has functioned as the first primary debate open thread, this makes this debate open thread sort of, kind of, the part 2 post. I don’t have a cat, but this guy or gal came to visit just outside my kitchen yesterday.

South Carolina Democratic Primary Debate Open Thread Part Twoish

A neighbor on the HOA committee has checked around and he or she doesn’t seem to belong to anyone. She or he just saunters around, does his or her thing, and then goes on her or his merry way. She or he does have the M marking on the forehead, so there is some Maine Coon in there.

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

283Comments

  4. 4.

    Elizabelle

    Love that Bernie mocks the self-proclaimed genius in the White House.

    Wouldn’t it be something if coronavirus took out Trump?  That would be something.

  8. 8.

    trnc

    @Mary G: I doubt the audience needs to be convinced DT is bad.

  10. 10.

    Morzer

    @Baud:  What, no offer to spend a trillion dollars on the Instant, Amazing Coronavirus Cure Project?  What sort of Democratic Socialism is this?

  13. 13.

    trnc

    It’s so weird that the people running for leader of the free world have to do their best Horseshack on stage.

  16. 16.

    Another Scott

    ex-Mayor Mike – Xi is, er, well, not really a dictator. I can negotiate with him. “Reciprocal Trade!!”

    Uncle Joe – I talked to Xi more than anyone when I left office.

    Uncle Joe is getting awfully close to “Only I Can Fix It” territory.

    Liz – We have to be able to trust our President because we can’t follow all the details on our own. ex-Mayor Mike hasn’t released his taxes.

    ex-Mayor Mike – I’m doing it as fast as I can. I wish she’d leave me alone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  17. 17.

    Elizabelle

    EWarren brings up need for seeing taxes.  Like Bloombergs.  which he says will be out after Super Tuesday.

    Bbg says he is a late  entrant and taxes are in process.  For dog’s sake, he could put out his previous 6 years or so right now.

  23. 23.

    Leto

    @Immanentize: Oh man, why you gotta raise my blood pressure this late at night??? :P

    Turns out my retirement paperwork was submitted as a separation. Meaning instead of retiring and collecting pay, I was… just separated. I have no idea how it happened, the person acknowledged the mistake, and then we walked through the entire damned process again. This marks the third time I’m having to do this. Tomorrow I’m writing my boss to get our big wig boss involved in this to 1) make sure this shit doesn’t happen again because it’s a fucking simple process that’s executed across scores of bases every day and 2) get her very very heavy hand involved in this to make sure this time it goes smoothly. Because JFC!!! Avalune described me as verbally strangling the person I met today, which is a fair description. After it was all done, I expressed my sincere gratitude for their help and emphasized I wasn’t mad at them, just the fuck ups that keep happening. They understood and sympathized.

     

    Do you remember the Morton’s Salt motto? :)

  24. 24.

    Another Scott

    Q – Bernie – Will you give authoritarians a free pass?

    Bernie – ex-Mayor Mike who elects the politburo?? Huh!?!

    Bernie – America has overthrown governments!!11

    Sheesh…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  31. 31.

    ThresherK

    Can Americans trust a Dem Soc pres will not give authoritarians a few pass?

    Yeah, in the age of Trump, whoever asked that can fuck all the way off. I have a lot of things to say about Bernie, but, authoritarian next to who, again?

  35. 35.

    Elizabelle

    Great Pete dig!   Trump nostalgia for the 1950s and Bernie nostalgia for leftist politics of the 1960s.

    Boos in audience.

  36. 36.

    Morzer

    @guachi: Oh well, if we’re going to get all extreme and demand that candidates actually say something relevant to the actual question…

  38. 38.

    Elizabelle

    Bernie yelling again.

    Do you want to see Trump and Bernie screaming at each other for months?  no no no

  41. 41.

    Another Scott

    Bernie screaming, and ex-Mayor Pete arguing with him simultaneously is such a bad look. Sanders looks like a crank, Pete looks like someone who thinks he’s entitled and rude.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  43. 43.

    Morzer

    @Baud: I like Warren, but I don’t think she’s the most tactically astute of politicians. Great start to the campaign – and then threw it away by trying to make sure Bernie couldn’t get to the left of her, which was a fool’s errand, because nobody, but nobody, out-lefts The Shout Heard Around The World.

  45. 45.

    JWR

    According to NPR, here’s who’s getting the most minutes.

    Halfway through the debate, Warren has gotten in more words than her six rivals.

    According to an NPR analysis of speaking time, Warren has spoken for 8 minutes and 15 seconds.

    Bloomberg is right behind Warren. Speaking the least is Steyer, who has spoken for 3 minutes and 41 seconds.

    No word on who’s SHOUTING the most.

  46. 46.

    Elizabelle

    Did Amy just call Bernie alienating.

    Excellent.  He is.  He is not going after Hillary’s voters.

  55. 55.

    Another Scott

    Uncle Joe – Telling the story about Russian interference and going to the Senate and Moscow Mitch said no…

    Bad way to tell the story, Joe. It makes you look weak and undercuts your story that you have Done everything before. And that you can work with Moscow Mitch….

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  56. 56.

    trnc

    I see one of the moderators got in a repub talking point about Obama letting Russia interfere in the 2016 election. I know Joe’s answer served himself as VP, but it was a good answer.

  57. 57.

    Elizabelle

    re cyberwarfare and election interference

    Steyer:  Where is the Commander in Chief now.

    Biden, I think:  “We don’t have one.”

  64. 64.

    Elizabelle

    @Chyron HR:   Will take either.  I like him leaving this mortal coil, but do think he needs to spend some time in prison before he shuffles out.

  73. 73.

    Another Scott

    Liz says the parties (Israel and Palestine) have to work out their own solution.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  76. 76.

    Elizabelle

    EWarren:  Values.  Ally.  Negotiation.  Be an ally by supporting them.

    Let the parties decide on the embassy themselves.  Will not get drawn out by Garrett, despite his 3 or 4 tries.

  82. 82.

    Elizabelle

    @Mary G:   I don’t think so.  Although I am not objective there.

    It just seems a LOT of Qs to Bloomberg.  And a lot of shouting.

  83. 83.

    Another Scott

    @Elizabelle: Her last sentence said that they have to figure out their capitols.  That was the unstated part of her earlier answer – embassies are typically in capitols.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  84. 84.

    Redshift

    @Elizabelle:

    Wouldn’t it be something if coronavirus took out Trump?  That would be something. 

    I want someone to tell him the only way to be safe from it is to avoid crowds. “No, really, even giving a speech with ten feet of space between you and them isn’t enough. Best to just stay indoors.”

  95. 95.

    Another Scott

    Pete – I stand with the people of Idlib. And we have [to] change the balance of power there.

    Er, what??

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  101. 101.

    Avalune

    Two hours of letting people shout over each other. After the break, we’re going to talk about the real matters, Senator Sanders, what’s your favorite color?

  102. 102.

    Elizabelle

    I like EWarren’s answers about the military.  Don’t use it for everything.  Don’t put them in unless you can get them out.  I think that’s a great strategy.

    Talks about humanitarian aid and working with our allies and takes a dig at Trump.

  104. 104.

    Another Scott

    Oooh. Next segment, just especially for Bernie!! What are words you live by??

    Think about it during the commercial break!!

    Exciting!!!1

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  105. 105.

    Elizabelle

    Dang.  A Bloomberg commercial during the CBS streaming break.

    But:  it just underlines how his debating/off the cuff speaking style diverges from a scripted commercial.

  107. 107.

    JWR

    Next up: Oh boy! Personal questions. Exactly what Bernie told 60 Minutes that he was not “particularly anxious” talking about.

    And a Freedom From Religion ad! Right there on my TV!

  111. 111.

    PsiFighter37

    @Baud: Smart move by him, especially since Wilmer turns beet red and starts yelling his head off as soon as that happens. What a fucking cranky asshole he is. I bet his family must LOVE to hang around him at Thanksgiving time.

  113. 113.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud: Sometimes I feel as if he’s our best bet. I can’t believe it, but sometimes it just dawns on me. It’s completely irrational.

  122. 122.

    guachi

    Are we almost done? I actually think that 2 hours went by quickly. Probably because I started 20 minutes into the debate.

  125. 125.

    Adam L Silverman

    @PsiFighter37: Thanksgiving is a bourgeois capitalist running dog lackey holiday. Senator Sanders and the Vanguard of the Vermont Proletariat do not celebrate such things.//

  129. 129.

    trnc

    Oh, Jeebus. “My biggest misconception is that I’m not the awesome person my kitties say I am.”

  134. 134.

    Elizabelle

    Biden has the best answer to the question.

    Promise of appointing a black woman to the Supreme Court.  Yea!

    Says he is loyal and does what he says.

    Joke about his hair.

  139. 139.

    Morzer

    Will there be some sort of commemorative medal/survivors’ group for those of us who made it through the Democratic debates of 2020?

  142. 142.

    Elizabelle

    Bernie has a good answer too.  No billionaire so far, but he might  — no.  No billionaire in his answer.

  151. 151.

    Immanentize

    @japa21: No one mentioned that.  Although I bet many voters remember how he thought that SC shouldn’t even be allowed to vote in the primary with all those not-working class people (that he loves) who vote for Republicans, etc. I remember.

  153. 153.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud:   One more break.

    Another Bloomberg commercial?  Or Trump?

    Getting an app commercial now.  Honey.

    Call of the Wild.

    Drug costs.    Good Rx.  Which is pretty good.

  159. 159.

    Baud

    If the candidates are going to quote the Bible, I wish they’d quote Revelations. Seems apt given current events.

  163. 163.

    Another Scott

    @Baud: “Senator Sanders, if you were one of the 7 Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which would you be and why?”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  168. 168.

    Another Scott

    And of course, the last “segment” was just to come back and say goodnight, so they would have another set of commercials to run.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  170. 170.

    PsiFighter37

    So…who won? Seems like it is less clear-cut that Warren won this time. My main hope is that Biden did enough to win, and that Steyer was shown to be the unserious candidate he is. I have no idea why the fuck he thinks he is qualified to be president when all he’s ever done is run a hedge fund and fund hugely ineffective television ads.

  172. 172.

    Elizabelle

    Bernie headed down to shake hands with audience.  Others did not yet.

    Shook hands with Terry McAuliffe.

    A commercial against Medicare for All, but I did not see by whom.

  177. 177.

    Ivan X

    No one asked me, but:

    Bloomberg: better than last time, but how could he not be
    Warren: not as good as last time (fwiw my first choice)
    Biden: Well, sad. I wish it weren’t sad, but I feel sad. It’s like he’s just pressing 100% of the time.
    Klobuchar: Maybe I’m a coastal elitist, but something lacks for me. But my state is certainly going for the D. Maybe we need hers and I don’t speak the language.
    Pete: Every now and then I’m like good answer but I never feel any of it and I never have and I wonder whether anyone else will.
    Steyer: you suck gtfo
    Bernie: oh my god, but I think I’m starting to get why he has the following. There’s no equivocation. It’s all authenticity. I think he’ll get destroyed with the oppo and the narrow lane, but I’m girding myself for seeing his name in the general and pulling the lever, I mean pushing the virtual button on the touchscreen, for him.

    I don’t see anyone’s needles moving, they’re all bringing what they’ve got and no one is standing out.

  181. 181.

    James E Powell

    I know it’s very early to be talking about the next election cycle four years  12 months from now, but as long as we’re doing major reforms like getting rid of all caucuses and pushing Iowa and New Hampshire later in the calendar, we ought to get rid of these things they call debates that are not debates.

    First, no press/media people should be involved. Second, set it up so the candidates ask each other questions and get more time for a response and a follow up. Have them sit down and talk to each other like educated adults.  If it bores the Villagers, all the better. They add nothing to the dialogue.

  182. 182.

    Morzer

    @PsiFighter37:  Sanders is probably happiest with the outcome. Warren didn’t even try to lay a glove on him and spent her time rehashing her issues with Bloomberg.

  183. 183.

    cain

    Bernie from what I hear from the comments really shouldn’t be yelling so much the man has a heart condition. If his reaction is going to be going beet red and gets easily trolled he’s in for a rough weather during the main event and if he’s in the presidency, McConnell will eat him alive.

  184. 184.

    Eljai

    I thought Biden did well tonight.  Bernie and Bloomberg were not great. Warren held her own and I thought she seemed authentic compared to Pete.  Mayor Pete got in some good bites but I don’t see him expanding his base.  Amy did a good job, but probably not enough to make a difference at this point.  Oh I forgot about Steyer — oh well, who cares.

  187. 187.

    cain

    @Morzer:

    That’s really unfortunate, that thing with Bloomberg was a one shot. What they wanted to see was a fiery candidate, but you’ve already laid bloomberg low, you need to find another scalp.

  188. 188.

    Ohio Mom

    I think if I had just woken up from a Rip Van Winkle-type sleep, and this debate was the first I’d seen of any of the candidates, I’d go for Mayor Pete.

    He was calm and collected. The others just come off as weird or enraged (yes, enraged includes not just Sanders but Warren and Biden too).

    Now I don’t think how you conduct yourself in a debate is the deciding factor, I’m still a Warren girl — unless she bombs out before I get to vote mid-March. Then I’ll have to reevaluate.

  189. 189.

    Avalune

    @cain: I was feeling that too – that it was like she latched on to the idea that brutalizing Bloomy worked so well last time, she just kept trying to get it to hit this time but it wasn’t.

  190. 190.

    Morzer

    @Elizabelle: And that was it. That’s not even a serious shot at the target. There’s no sustained attack on Sanders’ many vulnerabilities – and if Warren’s not going to try and take him down, there’s absolutely no point in her continuing her campaign. She might as well concede now.

  192. 192.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    @Baud: You mean how Trump is a much better fit for the Beast in revelations? The mark on the brow of the followers of the Beast was not 666, but “Make America Great Again”

  193. 193.

    Morzer

    @James E Powell: If Warren can’t take Sanders’ voters away from him, she might as well quit now, because she’s obviously not taking voters from anyone else. There’s no path to the nomination for her that doesn’t involve beating Sanders.

  194. 194.

    guachi

    There’s far too little time between SC and Super Tuesday and far too many contests on Super Tuesday.

    It would be better if there were two weeks between SC and Super Tuesday and not a few days. That way, candidates could drop out and see another debate and look at another candidate. No one will drop out after SC and that means Sanders wins Super Tuesday and Sanders will be the nominee.

    It’s awful, but that’s where we are.

  196. 196.

    Adam L Silverman

    @trnc: It’s been a long time since I taught New Testament to college students in Religious Studies, but I’m pretty sure there are 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.

  198. 198.

    guachi

    @Morzer: Exactly. Warren is running to place second. I won’t give money to anyone who doesn’t look like they want to actually win. Whoever attacks Sanders the most effectively is who I want to give money to.

  202. 202.

    Morzer

    @Elizabelle: That positioning is getting her nowhere. She’s got maybe 11% in the polls and she’s not going to expand that to a viable coalition by giving Sanders a pass and getting into an endless, repetitious fight with Bloomberg.

  211. 211.

    Marcopolo

    Because moderators for the most part are truly fucking awful…

    How about the next debate just use dropped out Dem primary candidates as the moderators? Castro, Beto, Yang, Harris, Inslee, Booker, Gillibrand. Anyone else like this idea? I think it would be AMAZING! And you can drop Castro if you don’t want someone who has endorsed.

    I’m pretty sure they might actually ask the remaining candidates about the issues upon which Democratic voters are actually basing their primary voting decisions.

    Now, how do we make this happen?

  212. 212.

    Another Scott

    @Ivan X: I don’t think any minds were changed tonight.

    Liz – Did well, more digs at Bloomberg, a few more at Bernie. Brought up important issues, but may have turned off some people by jumping in too often. I liked that she showed that she’s thought about foreign policy as much as she has domestic policy, and can avoid traps (like what to do about Israel/Palestine/the embassy).

    Pete – Overly polished and scripted, as always.  Talking on top of Bernie the whole time wasn’t a good look for him, but probably forced by the format.  His (roughly) “we have to change the power balance in Idlib” was wrong, wrong, wrong.  We’re not going to war with Russia to protect Idlib.  We’re just not. The USA being in Syria to somehow protect Idlib is a recipe for a 50 year occupation/no-fly-zone/etc.

    Bloomberg – Exceedingly smug and haughty, and saying he “bought” 21 House seats is disqualifying.

    Biden – Ok, but whiney.  And his story about the 2016 Russian interference and how he was blocked by Moscow Mitch made him sound weak.  It’s an important story, but he told it all wrong.

    Amy – She was the same as the first debate.  She has never explained why she wants to be President other than she’s from the Midwest Heartland™ and has never lost a race. What does she want to do with the country?

    Steyer – Has some good lines, but also has some stupid policies (term limits). Has not demonstrated that he knows how to work with people who are their own power centers to actually accomplish anything in government.

    St. Bernard – Smug on top of Shouty and convinced of his unique political instincts is not a good look for him, but it’s not unexpected. His closing was yet more recycling of his 2016 stump speech. His statement of (roughly) “everyone in America will be assured of a comfortable economic status” (or something) was jarring to these ears. There’s so much more that needs to be fixed than just economics, and he just refuses to see it. His “everyone here made a mistake, just look at them!!11” and “America now sees how horrible gun violence is!!11” when called on his NRA history sounds like whining. He, too, cannot learn from his mistakes and grow.

    I still like Liz. I hope more voters do too.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  215. 215.

    Citizen Alan

    @cain: I actually wonder if the reason EW is not going after Wilmer in the debates is that she’s gambling on his health declining due to the stress of the campaign. If he does drop out (in any sense of the word), she’s the only one who can possibly subsume any part of his movement, so maybe it makes sense for her to try to peel off supporters from everyone else in order to be the ideal compromise candidate.

  216. 216.

    piratedan

    @Morzer: a couple of things, no polls have been made public post the Nevada debates…. while there are rumors of a Warren bump, it hasn’t been mainstreamed yet and if she did indeed get a bump, where did those votes come from?.. and in answer to your second take, there’s no path for any other candidate without taking votes away votes from Sanders, and the running commentary is that since Sanders and Warren hold similar positions on a majority of policies, stating unequivocally that she thinks that she would be a better president than him in public and on stage on national TV doesn’t exactly scream to me that she’s running for the VP slot.

    obviously ymmv…

  218. 218.

    Elizabelle

    @Morzer:   She doesn’t have his baggage.  No one has ever opened up on Bernie yet, and they really need to.  With all barrels.

    I think he could tear the Democratic party apart and hand the election to Trump.

  220. 220.

    Jeffro

    Looking forward to Klobuchar, Buttigieg, and Steyer dropping out at any point between tomorrow and Super Tuesday and seeing how that shakes out for the remainder of the field.  I think I know which two candidates they will gravitate to and neither of them is named Sanders.

  222. 222.

    guachi

    If we had, say, three strong candidates (and no more) then each candidate would be about the 15% threshold and we wouldn’t be seeing candidates with 25-30% of the vote getting 40-50% of the delegates. But I wouldn’t be surprised if a state ends up 25-15-15 on Super Tuesday and 45% of the votes go to waste. At least if Sanders (or any candidate) gets piles of delegates I want it to be because a voter actually voted FOR that candidate and not by voting for someone who got less than 15%.

    It’s fine in a few races early but it’s a complete disaster when SEVEN candidates are still out there on Super Tuesday. What a mess.

  223. 223.

    Elizabelle

    @Citizen Alan:   I have been wondering the exact same thing.

    Was going to suggest that in my answer to Morzer.

    Attrition.   Bernie’s health may do him in first.  Stay in there.

  224. 224.

    Morzer

    @piratedan: The problem with that strategy is that it really hasn’t convinced anyone so far – and shows no sign of working any better in future.  I think Warren got herself into the wrong lane by trying not to be outflanked by Wilmer and she’s been unable to get herself out of it.

  225. 225.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Given that the whole Book of Revelation is a written account of a mystic vision that John had, and while I can’t prove it, it would not surprise me if that vision was assisted by what we’d call psychedelics today, it would not surprise me. But I’m pretty sure the official position is horses.

  227. 227.

    Jeffro

    @Elizabelle: I think the ‘tear the party apart’ is a possibility; ‘de-motivate huge segments of the party’ is even more likely.

    If it comes down to him vs trumpov, I’ll vote for him but that’s it.  I’m not going to lie to people and knock on doors or whatever for him.  No money either.

  228. 228.

    🐾BillinGlendaleCA

    @Fair Economist: Remember Bernie was there first, he ran on the same thing in 2016, so Warren is going to be viewed as Bernie Lite unless she does something to separate herself from him.  I’m not talking about the folk here who know the difference that you cite(“the plans”) but regular voters who are trying to make a decision now.

  229. 229.

    Elizabelle

    @Fair Economist:   Thank you.  You said it very well.

    Those who don’t want to see it will not see it.

    I like that.  Heavy rather than lite.  And  not a leap year Democrat.

  230. 230.

    Morzer

    @Elizabelle: If that’s all Warren has for a strategy, she really should quit now, because if Sanders leaves the race, she’s going to have to fight the other candidates for his voters – and she can’t just wait for them all to give up and go home.

  231. 231.

    Elizabelle

    @Jeffro:   I am where you are.

    And I don’t think these armies of nonvoters and the youth are going to take our places.

    This is horrifying.

  233. 233.

    Morzer

    @Jeffro: I can’t imagine a majority of Congresspersons/Senators wanting to be tied to Ranting Wilmer’s Socialist Revolution. That’s a quick ride to disaster for many of them. How does a nominee win when so much of his (current/latest) party really doesn’t want to be seen with him?

  234. 234.

    J R in WV

    @Baud:

    Bernie can’t answer the embassy question.

    OK, I’m depending upon Balloon Juice to cover this debate — WHAT Embassy Question, please???

  236. 236.

    Elizabelle

    @Morzer:   Bernie will cost us the House.  And not improve our numbers in the Senate.

    So no.  No way in hell EWarren needs to drop out.  She and others should bird dog Sanders as hard as he went after Hillary.

  238. 238.

    MobiusKlein

    @Adam L Silverman: Take a peek, it’s usually fairly clear, if you get a good look.

    Also if there is a feral colony, might be good to have a local ASPCA or similar group check it out.

    Feral colony of cats, not dems that is.  No cure for that.

  240. 240.

    Morzer

    @Elizabelle: I think it’s perfectly possible that many of Sanders’ voters won’t accept any other candidate. For my money, Warren should never have let herself be forced into this Leftist Liz positioning. She’s much more of a moderate, somewhat technocratic Dem.  She should be competing for that pool of voters.

  241. 241.

    Morzer

    @Elizabelle: If Warren isn’t going to go after Sanders, yes, she should quit, because she’s not going to be the nominee and she’s just taking votes away from the other candidates.

  242. 242.

    Ohio Mom

    JRinWV: the moderators thought it would be cute to ask the two Jewish candidates if they would move the American embassy back from Jerusalem, where Trump put it, to Tel Aviv, where it used to be. Warren added her response, which was pretty weak (but I’m not holding g that against her).

  243. 243.

    Adam L Silverman

    @piratedan: Actually there have been both state polls for SC and national polls that came out over the past couple of days. Morning Consult/NBC and Public Policy Polling both got a lot of press.

  244. 244.

    Elizabelle

    @Morzer:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    It’s bad enough being afraid of Trump voters without having to be afraid of Sanders voters too.

    It is a problem.  I met a lot the prototypes in earlier races, before there was a Sanders to support.  Usually men, very argumentative, and the ones I got away from as fast as possible because they were complete time sinks and not likely to vote for my candidate anyway.

  245. 245.

    🐾BillinGlendaleCA

    @Morzer: Tonight was the night for Warren, after she went after Bloomberg on his taxes*, to turn to Bernie and go after him about his medical records.

    *Can’t Bloomberg just request the IRS to release a copy of the taxes he filed?

  248. 248.

    mad citizen

    @Citizen Alan: I can’t imagine this is her plan, but it’s a possibility, I think.  I’m resigned to displaying wilmer stickers, but still Super Tuesday is around 33% of the delegates, so I’m not giving up yet.

    I watched the Miles Davis doc ikk instead of the debate.

  249. 249.

    Eljai

    @Elizabelle: I’m with you.  The way I see it, EWarren is keeping Bernie’s numbers down, so she should definitely stay in.  Some of the moderates are taking votes away from Liz, so the field needs to winnow.  When I was out canvassing last Sunday, I talked with a woman who had been deliberating between Bloomberg and Buttigieg, before deciding to vote for Liz in the California primary.

  250. 250.

    Ohio Mom

    I’ll add that all three answers on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict were weak. Everyone is for the two state solution, but I don’t know how you make that happen at this point.

  251. 251.

    Jeffro

    @Morzer: pretty spot-on.  Also her running for big changes, needed or not, on any number of fronts, not all of which sit well with a majority of D voters and donors (which, like it or not under the current system, matters)

    An appealing, somewhat experienced and familiar ‘Dem-unity’ candidate, one stronger/younger/etc than Biden should, in theory, be cleaning everyone’s clock right now and probably would have prevented Bloomberg and Steyer from getting into the race in the first place.  There were a few who might have fit this bill but they either didn’t run that way or couldn’t hold on in such a large field* and they’re not here now, and so…here we are.

    *this is part of why I think we should work to add “must have served a full term in the House, Senate, or as a state governor prior to filing to run for president” to the list of qualifications to run for president. Just part…but think, that would have cut the field by about half at the outset and would have totally eliminated the billionaires.

  256. 256.

    Butter Emails

    I don’t agree that Warren and Bernie are competing in the same lane, but if you think that’s the case wanting her to drop out makes no damn sense unless you want Bernie handed the primary on a golden platter. She drops out, and Bernie picks up her 10% while the other candidates continue splitting the moderate vote and Bernie coasts to a massive win on Super Tuesday.

  257. 257.

    Morzer

    @Jeffro: In that case, it’s going to have to be Biden, because Klobuchar’s numbers are deeply unimpressive and she’s pretty much out of cash.

  258. 258.

    Kent

    Based on the debates so far.  The really important question.  Who would you most want to have a beer with?  For me:

    1.  Joe Biden.  You could probably get him to do just about anything with few drinks in him.  He’s got to be the most fun to hang out with by far.
    2. Elizabeth Warren.  She just seems really fun and witty for a 70-something.
    3. no one else

    Who would I not want to have a beer with?

    1. Bernie Sanders.  He’s your grumpy old uncle during Thanksgiving and the guy at the end of the bar in an old working class neighborhood who is rattling on about the tri-lateral commission and leaves flecks of saliva on your shirt.
    2. Pete Buttigieg.  He’s the guy who campaigns for student body president by talking about “deliverables” and “being pro-active” while at a frat party
    3. Amy Klobuchar.  I like her as a candidate but she would kind of scare me in a bar.
    4. Mike Bloomberg?   Bwah ha ha.  He doesn’t do bars, he has people for that.
    5. Tom Steyer?  Why are we still talking about Tom Steyer?
  260. 260.

    Elizabelle

    @Jeffro:

    *this is part of why I think we should work to add “must have served a full term in the House, Senate, or as a state governor prior to filing to run for president” to the list of qualifications to run for president. Just part…but think, that would have cut the field by about half at the outset and would have totally eliminated the billionaires.

    Unquestionably.  And tax returns and medical records divulged before declaring as a candidate.  Enough of the bait and switch.  If you cannot provide this year’s, you can sure provide the previous couple.

  263. 263.

    sdhays

    @Jeffro: Nothing I’ve read suggests to me that Klobuchar actually has a chance. I think she should drop out. I think she should have dropped out after Iowa, to be honest. Iowa is right next door to Minnesota, so that was a great opportunity to show us how popular she is in the Midwest. It didn’t happen, and she’s never really had the funding to build the kind of grueling state-by-state infrastructure that Hillary and Obama both had in 2008.

    Even if she has some pleasant surprises (which is seeming increasingly unlikely), she won’t be able to capitalize on them.

  265. 265.

    Elizabelle

    @Butter Emails:   Agreed.

    And I don’t see that Klobuchar — status quo hot dish — is safer than Warren WRT the downballot candidates.

    She’s a good debater, and you can see the prosecutor.

  268. 268.

    Eljai

    @Butter Emails: Bingo!  I think a lot of non-Bernie voters are casting about trying to find the best candidate.  Warren has been ticking up in some tracking polls.  She was in a 3rd place in a recent Texas poll by the University of Houston conducted before Nevada.  Biden and Bernie were 1st and 2nd in that poll, but Liz was within 3 points.  And Bloomberg and Buttigieg had lower Hispanic support than Warren.

    ETA:  So I think Liz definitely has potential to grab some more people to her side as the field winnows.

  270. 270.

    jl

    Glad I turned it off. From Josh Marshall’s summary:

    “Asking the two Jewish candidates about whether to move the US Embassy to Israel was a good example of that of gross. Asking Amy Klobuchar whether she’d bar US citizens from returning to the US to prevent the spread of Coronavirus was both dumb and trivial: a question meant to put a candidate on the spot for purely theatrical reasons.”

    THAT was the coronavirus question? Really? The moderation and questions stunk even worse than I expected.

    ” Elizabeth Warren continuing to savage Mike Bloomberg ”

    People think that is true? If so, I don’t know if that was the best use of her time, but who knows?

    Not sure I even want to check the transcript now. I guess I’ll check the coronavirus question.

    A Few Thoughts on the Debate

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/biden-has-a-solid-debate-everyone-attacks-sanders

  271. 271.

    Jean

    @Ohio Mom: I haven’t just awakened from a Rip Van Winkle sleep, and after this debate, I’m leaning toward Pete.  I’m tired of the frantic, the enraged, the shouting, and it doesn’t seem to make any of them look better.  Why can’t they stay out of the weeds on health care?  It takes away time for the big issues right now: Trump and his destroyers.

  272. 272.

    jl

    @Morzer: Thanks. Skimmed it. Doesn’t sound good, but let’s see if she can do better in Super Tuesday.

    People can hate on Sanders all we want, but for me, one reason this primary is so dispiriting is that, IMHO, the centrist candidates haven’t been very good at selling themselves.

    Biden started his campaign as a nostalgia tour guided by lovable Uncle Joe, when I think early primary voters wanted policy. No one forced him to do that. Klobuchar is the best centrist on policy, but they way she presented herself at the beginning had a too downbeat ‘yes, maybe we can, but just a little bit, with hard choices for you voters’ vibe. Buttitgieg turned into a smarmy political operator after big money showed some interest.

    Warren was the progressive alternative to Sanders, but her campaign ran into problems. Maybe because she is not as good an electoral politician as we had hoped, or maybe she is, but too easy to make fatal mistakes in first run for national office.

  273. 273.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, …

    Trump is conducting a full-blown purge of federal workers with experience and competence who he imagines are disloyal and put a college senior into a top post vetting new hires https://t.co/Ty7bv3q9Ag— Rep. Don Beyer (@RepDonBeyer) February 26, 2020

    Yes, he literally did that.

    Eyes on the prizes, folks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  274. 274.

    Kent

    @Another Scott:

    Meanwhile, …

    Trump is conducting a full-blown purge of federal workers with experience and competence who he imagines are disloyal and put a college senior into a top post vetting new hires t.co/Ty7bv3q9Ag— Rep. Don Beyer (@RepDonBeyer) February 26, 2020

    Yes, he literally did that.

    Eyes on the prizes, folks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

     

    He is actually only purging his own political appointees.  He can’t purge career civil service folks.  So basically this is the incompetent Trumpers purging the slightly more competent Trumpers who are still evil but not quite as obsequious as the master likes to see in his peons.  Let’s not call these people competent.  Or, to the extent they are competent, it’s like the coal lobby folks in charge of the EPA.  They are competent at doing evil.  Normal Federal workers who do the actual work of the Federal government are untouched by this.

    Yes, they can fire civil service workers too, but that is a very long process and you have to have actual cause that is very well documented.  It’s only the political appointees who are at-will employees who can be fired at-will

    Net effect of these purges is that Trump will end up with less control over the Federal bureaucracy rather than more because all his new “acting” idiots will take a long time to get up to speed.  Meanwhile the regular civil service folk will just go about the ordinary business of government as best as they can without political leadership from the top.

    Purging your own political appointees in year 4 of your presidency is just stupid beyond belief.  But then this is Trump we are talking about, so yes, Stupid beyond Belief.

  275. 275.

    jl

    @Another Scott: Yes. Absolutely. Even if the nominee disgusts various commenters, no excuse for not doing everything we can. If someone cannot stomach the presidential candidate, then work on an important Senate or House election. Or work on a state level election.

    No one has an excuse for anyone to sulk or sit it out because they hate the presidential nominee. Voting isn’t enough, need to contribute or do some GOTV for some race or other, or both.

  276. 276.

    Another Scott

    I too was arrested* in South Africa** for trying to break into prison*** to visit Nelson Mandela****

    *asked to leave

    **Kroger

    ***dairy case

    ****reach the last pudding

    — PostPandemicHellscapeHat (@Popehat) February 26, 2020

    I’m kinda surprised that Uncle Joe wasn’t asked about that. Pleasantly surprised.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  277. 277.

    Another Scott

    @Kent: Marie Yovanovich and Andrew McCabe would like a word.

    Yes, he can do various things.  But he cannot do them for corrupt reasons.

    Plus, he’s been trying to push through various changes at OPM to give him the ability to fire civil servants.

    Don’t be sanguine.

    Plus, he really did put a college senior in that position.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  278. 278.

    Kent

    @Another Scott: I’m far from Sanguine.  Ambassadors are political appointees.  He could remove her from the ambassador position but I don’t think he could actually fire her if she was a regular state department employee, just reassign her.  And the FBI is a special case.  They actually had cause to fire McCabe, whether it was legit is a different question.  But it went through a whole long DOJ review process and they had him for lying to investigators about a leak or something.  I don’t remember the exact details.  Yes, it was probably fraudulent, but it took them a lot of effort to do it.

    And yes, he is trying to change OPM rules but those are mostly statutes so he needs Congress to make any meaningful changes or he would have done it long ago.  So they do evil shit like move agencies across the country to try to get veteran people to quit when they can’t fire them directly.

  281. 281.

    joel hanes

    @Morzer:

    Could you please say the same thing another twenty or thirty times?   I’m not sure we’re getting the picture after only fifty or so such comments.

Comments are closed.