Last night the news broke that McConnell doesn’t have the votes to block a vote on having witnesses. What this means isn’t clear, but if there’s anything clear about this whole ordeal, it’s that Comrade McConnell is going to engage in the maximum fuckery possible. In last night’s comments on a post with a different topic, Martin made this point:
As part of the process, they have a vote of whether to consider witness. That’s the vote in question here. Then there’s a process of submitting witness requests to leadership, I think it is, and they introduce individual motions for votes. They don’t need to introduce every rando request, but things they think are relevant. It could be none will pass. There will probably be some negotiating in how the motions are structured, whether individual witnesses, open or closed session, all that garbage.
That sounds possible to me, but as the ever-shifting needs of the weaker links in his caucus to have fig leafs of “I did too vote for witnesses” bump up against the desires of safe seat Senators to just get it over with, how this thing ends up will probably be at least a little unpredictable.
That first story linked brings up a Republican talking point that witnesses will cause the impeachment to be delayed by a side trip into the courts as witnesses resist their subpoenas. My understanding is that this is bullshit: Roberts will rule from the bench and his ruling is final. Congress has the sole power to impeach and remove, and there is no appeal for a ruling from the presiding officer, the Chief Justice.
I’m sure Trump, who has skirted the law by dilatory legal actions for his whole life, disagrees, but unless anyone can cite a non-wingnut legal authority, I’m thinking that any witnesses called will show up.
kindness
Yea, fair points but how much does anyone here trust CJ John Roberts? Citizens United & gutting the Voting Rights Act were not aberrations for John.
MattF
Not precisely on-topic, but adjacent: Slate item noting that a claim of executive privilege could lead to a judge finding that Trump engaged in criminal activity.
Patricia Kayden
trnc
No argument here, but it may have been easier to coat those decisions with a patina of BS than it would be to overrule the senate vote.
LC
I’ve been thinking for a while that the GOP might go ahead and vote to consider witnesses and then each individual witness gets shot down except maybe Hunter Biden. (Each gets 1-2 GOP votes, but not enough defect.). Everyone gets cover but no witnesses go on the record.
The only problem i see with this is it adds at least a few days to the trial and then Trump doesn’t get his Super Bowl interview to brag about being exonerated. (he would still get SotU this way, though, so maybe it is enough )
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@kindness: Roberts doesn’t need to be elected so the Trump base is no threat to him and Roberts is worried about his legacy and “a bigger fool that Justice Taney” isn’t a good look in a history book.
sdhays
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I tend to agree that Roberts is a bit more likely to rule against Dump on these types of issues, but as a counterpoint, the conservative majority on the Court is still only 1 vote. They really need to replace RBG and Clarence Thomas with young conservative ideologues to cement their majority for a generation.
Belafon
Some of this is to get Republican voters to call their Republicans and scream at them. If you live in an area with a weak Republican (in terms of holding onto their seat, not spine), then call them as well.
Betty Cracker
Manchin is Manchining this morning:
Cheryl Rofer
Good thread from Ezra Klein with material you can use when you call your Republican Senators.
Shalimar
I still don’t think they will allow witnesses, the testimony of any of the witnesses Democrats want would be disastrous for Trump, but it is possible there will be enough votes to consider witnesses and then not enough for any one witness to testify, so the senators in the most electoral danger can claim they voted in favor. How they think this will fool anyone, I have no idea. All anyone will remember in November is they held a trial with no witnesses.
OzarkHillbilly
Roberts is the wild card here. I read somewhere this morning that he can make a ruling on executive privilege, but he doesn’t have to. If that’s true, and I have no idea if it is, a part of me thinks that given the choice he’d just as soon punt.
Shalimar
@Betty Cracker: “What evidence would you expect Hunter Biden to give and which article of impeachment is it relevant to?”
the Conster
if they don’t, then what? Barr is in on it, and what law enforcement arm does Roberts have?
cope
@LC: I agree with you. I am usually wrong about these things but this scenario would give the Republicans an opportunity for much “tut tutting” and brow furrowing but ultimately lead to no witnesses being called.
Edited for logical clarity (as much I am capable of being logical at this point).
JPL
@Shalimar: I think calling him could backfire. His background in corporate law makes him more qualified than others to serve on the board.
At least I hope so
Omnes Omnibus
@sdhays: And as a counter-counterpoint, President Biden/Warren only needs to replace one justice to have a shitload of decisions swing our way.
Jeffro
Speaking of outright fuckery: Politico is reporting that the trumpov campaign is flat-out giving away cash to black voters via a shell organization
I hope people take his money and vote against him anyway
piratedan
@Shalimar: i tend to agree, I have no illusions about the machinations that McConnell still might enact, I’ll believe that there are witnesses when I see them and it would be just like the GOP to include witnesses, two.. Hunter and Joe Biden and nobody fucking else….
PsiFighter37
@Betty Cracker: What a fucking useless tool. I doubt he’s running in 2024 anyways – can’t he be a team player for once on this?
HRH mistermix, Lord Bombay Sapphire, Duke of Schweppes
@the Conster: Congress has the power to enforce a subpoena directly. It’s a little used but constitutionally authorized power, IIRC. If the witness refused to testify, I assume the Sergeant at Arms of the Senate would then collect the witness, probably with the assistance of the Capitol Police.
rp
Hunter Biden isn’t a relevant witness in any sane world, but my view is that both sides should be able to call whoever they want. We come out way ahead in that deal.
Shalimar
@JPL: I agree. Hunter Biden may have fucked up his personal life, but he is smart, well-educated and articulate. He isn’t the cartoon villian they are painting him as. Actually having him under oath isn’t going to help Republicans.
germy
@Jeffro:
Bruce K
Is it wishful thinking, or is the political calculus for the Senate GOP looking worse by the day? I get the impression that McConnell’s acting like he’s racing the clock to get this done – okay, a State of the Union delivered by a man while he’s being tried for impeachable offenses…
…well, I was going to say it was unprecedented, but I completely forgot that Bill Clinton gave his 1999 State of the Union while his impeachment was in progress in the Senate.
Clinton didn’t mention the topic even once. Something tells me Trump won’t have that much self-control.
Which might explain why McConnell’s in such a panic to finish sweeping this under the rug by next Tuesday?
trnc
Recent history.
Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.)
I’ve said for days that Republicans won’t bring in any witnesses other than maybe Biden and his son. You can write off Collins altogether. She’s worthless. She does her Hamlet thing, and then gives in to McConnell. Every time. She won’t want to hear anything. She’ll be “sad” and “disappointed” and “concerned”; but that’s as far as she’ll ever go.
This is one of the reasons I get so sick of this whole “moderate Republican” horseshit. There are no moderate Republicans any longer. When people talk about moderates, they’re talking about the way they talk, not how they vote. All it is is “tone”. Nutbags like Cruz and Tom Cotton this new guy, Hawley from Missouri, they make a big deal about wanting to burn everything down. They brag about wanting to burn it down. The only difference between them and the “moderates” is that the “moderates” won’t say anything about burning everything down, but they’ll vote for it.
MattF
I think drawing out the arguments over witnesses is a win, and actual witnesses actually testifying would be a win plus gravy. Consider that not so long ago, RW heavy breathers were agitating for an immediate flat dismissal. Now we have Lou Dobbs propagating libels about Bolton. Progress!
bbleh
As posted elsewhere, I have bet the farm and currently am holding my breath in anticipation of Bolton actually testifying.
To which I would add, in the all-but-impossible event that he does, expect him to bob and weave and obfuscate, and give Republicans all the hooks they need on which to hang various arguments for acquittal.
The only good news here is, it’s keeping the story alive, and making Republican Senators sweat, for another day.
Jeffro
@germy: yup. Him and Rampell were both retweeting it.
boy, that Citizens United decision is just looking wiser and wiser every day, isn’t it?
Fester Addams
I would be novel to see the chief justice serve as something other that dias decoration in this shit show. Who knows, maybe we’ll see.
OzarkHillbilly
@Jeffro: They will.
HRH mistermix, Lord Bombay Sapphire, Duke of Schweppes
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.):
Agreed. I like the term “endangered” better. Collins, Gardner, et. al. are in danger of losing their seats, but there’s no danger that they’ll vote against McConnell.
Retr2327
It seems to me that the appropriate House committee (Appropriations, for one) should subpoena Bolton today. There’s a clear reason for House oversight: the ICA was violated, and Bolton has relevant information. That would remind all these Republican senators that these facts ARE going to come out.
germy
JMG
Having Hunter Biden testify would be a disaster for Republicans, maybe worse even than Bolton’s testimony. His job is to be a shadowy villain in the Fox Paranoid Universe. A flesh and blood Hunter just wouldn’t suit.
bbleh
@Retr2327: Schiff is opposed to that, I think because it would give the Senate an excuse NOT to call him. He would stonewall, it would get tied up in the courts, and meanwhile the Senate would say they can’t interfere.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they do so AFTER the Senate is done, however.
@JMG: I just hope the Dems are crash-coaching him right now.
jonas
If this is true, it’s probably because they figure that the only reason African Americans vote Democratic in large numbers is for the free bennies they all get.
MattF
@JMG: Also, highlighting the ‘nepotism’ issue… relevant Far Side cartoon.
the Conster
@HRH mistermix, Lord Bombay Sapphire, Duke of Schweppes:
ah yes – the Sergeant at Arms, the Sergeant at Arms of the Senate and *checks notes* the Capitol Architect- a Trump appointee – are going to go out arresting people? I’ll believe that when I see it.
FlipYrWhig
@bbleh: I tend to think that Bolton is angry/embarrassed at how Trump and his cronies are ruining the Republican brand, which he thinks of as strength and command, not sleaze and slipperiness. He’s still under a wrong impression but that’s what’s setting him off, IMHO.
Betty Cracker
I’m biased, obviously, but it sure seems like every day this is in the news and Republican senators get hounded with media questions, the more obvious their role in the cover-up is. Now people like Cruz are just straight-up saying “Yeah, he did it. So what?” We figured they’d get there eventually, but it’s a far cry from “No quid pro quo!”
clay
That seems illegal. Isn’t that illegal? Sure seems like it…
zhena gogolia
I just donated to Biden and called Murphy and Blumenthal to express support. Feels good.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
I wonder how many people are reacting to Pam Bondi and Joni Ernst the way I have. Since Harris dropped out, I haven’t settled on a candidate. Now I’m all in for Biden. Don’t judge me.
Betty Cracker
Repubs in disarray alert!
Collins, the MAGA auctioneer of House impeachment hearings fame, is running for GA US Senate. Trump allegedly wanted the tool who stole Stacy Abrams’ job to appoint Collins instead of Loeffler, so this could get good.
MattF
@FlipYrWhig: It’s pretty clear that Bolton is protective towards his mustache. Trump should not have gone there.
James E Powell
@kindness:
I expect nothing but the worst from Roberts. Sure, I could be wrong, I could be surprised, but I always expect the worst. He will couch it in terms of deference to the senate, which means approving whatever McConnell wants
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I read this all the time, but I really see no evidence that it’s true. His legacy so far is Citizens United and Shelby County and Burwell v Hobby Lobby and probably a few I’m missing.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker: gee I wonder why the GA GOP wants Loeffler instead of Collins… ?
Betty Cracker
@zhena gogolia: Not sure where that came from, but okay!
randy khan
I definitely can see a scenario in which the Senate votes to allow witnesses and then somehow never quite gets enough votes for any particular witness. Also, a scenario in which only the defense gets to call witnesses because, well, we’re talking about Republican Senators here.
I also can see a scenario in which the Administration runs to court to try to prevent witnesses from appearing, although in practice my guess is that that would end pretty fast (call it a week or two) as judges would rule against the Administration on that one with great alacrity. My guess is that one doesn’t happen.
Omnes Omnibus
@MattF: The mustache is actually protecting its host. Don’t feel bad; it can be confusing to non-cryptozoologists
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
I guess I was reacting to your comment about how this proceeding is hurting the Repubs’ cause.
Snarki, child of Loki
“I’m thinking that any witnesses called will show up”
Unless they have a fatal “thrown under a bus” incident.
I think Trump is gonna need a bigger bus.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: It can be confusing to the clean-shaven as well.
MattF
@Omnes Omnibus: Hmm. I’m thinking, if there’s a epidemiological mustache reservoir somewhere, I don’t want to know.
Redshift
This is why almost all Republican efforts aimed at African Americans are a laughable failure – they actually believe their own racist bullshit, and make plans with the assumption it’s true.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PsiFighter37: I think more than any Democrat and more than even a lot of Republicans, Manchin is the best example of a genuinely stupid person who thinks he’s very smart, because the cast of Morning Joe is his lodestar.
Betty Cracker
@zhena gogolia: The “I support Biden-don’t judge me” thing seemed out of left field. I’ve not concealed my deep misgivings about Biden’s candidacy, but I don’t believe I’ve persecuted his supporters! :)
Aziz, light!
@zhena gogolia: I’m also in for Biden. I want to win this election, not score points in progressive heaven.
Just Chuck
@the Conster: The Sergeant at Arms has a big ol’ mace. Oh, and the Capitol Police.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
Oh, the “don’t judge me” was supposed to be directed more generally at everyone, not you specifically.
MattF
@Aziz, light!: Biden’s apparent strengths come from the things he’s not: not a woman, not AA, not Jewish, not Trump. I’m suspicious of that, but, of course, I’d vote for him.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I wonder… do people with mustaches get sick more than people without them? Seems like they would be good germ collectors, not to mention their location right under the nostrils.
zhena gogolia
@MattF:
He’s also a long-term, seasoned public servant who participated in two successful national elections and served admirably as Vice President of the United States for eight years. And the Republicans are so terrified of him they’re engineering an entire television spectacle to smear him.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Same here. Its the 2016 deja vu. Both BS bros and the Rs are attacking Biden now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MattF:
also not chasing Rose-twitter’s zero electoral votes with maximalist sloganeering and promises that will among other things create headaches for down-ticket candidates. YMMV. To the extent endorsements count, Biden is getting those of people who flipped R seats. I think that tells us something.
zhena gogolia
See Jennifer Rubin on this topic.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I would never have picked up on that on my own. Thank you.
Mary G
@zhena gogolia: I wasn’t the world’s biggest Biden fan when the primary started, but he has done a great job going after Twitler and does much better in head to head polls than any of them, so no judgment from me. I want to vote for Warren in the primary, but I have pledged to vote for whoever the black women I respect choose, and Wilmer is leading in California polls right now, so I may end up going for Uncle Joe too.
My hands are too bad to link on this device this early in the morning, but Biden has a web ad up featuring Fred Guttenberg, who lost his daughter Jamie at Parkland HS, and it is so good. I think it’s called Mission and Purpose, and it’s a three-hankie weeper and all in on gun control. Super effective display of Biden’s empathy and humanity.
Central Planning
Could Nancy add Bolton as one of the impeachment managers? He could get up there and talk all he wants.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: I’ve had a mustache for decades, and I haven’t found myself getting ill more often. Then again, I am familiar with soap.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Still hoping Warren pulls off an upset! It’s not likely, but she’s still in it, and Iowa polls say she’s the top 2nd choice for the other candidates’ supporters. That could come in handy in caucuses with a divided electorate.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I have never done facial hair, so I would have no idea.
zhena gogolia
@Mary G:
Thank you, it’s excellent.
Shalimar
@randy khan: The one thing they can’t do is run to the courts. Roberts is the final arbiter.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Personal anecdata says no. If anything, less, as it acts as an adjunct filter to nostril hairs.
Barry
@the Conster: Bench warrants; sending whomever has the theoretical enforcement power from the House/Senate to their houses, etc.
Another Scott
Schiff said in his remarks that a majority of Senators can over-rule [a] CJ decision during the [trial] and that (roughly) “every legislator has dreamed of the day they’d be able to do so”.
Cheers,
Scott.
Emma from FL
@MattF: Not quite. Biden also has a good rapport with the AA community, and relates to people at a human level. He’s not my first choice but I won’t go all sackcloth and ashes if he’s the candidate.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker:
patrick II
If there is a 50/50 tie for witnesses, which way does Roberts vote? Everyone says we need four but do we just need three?
Ruckus
@bbleh:
Not sure about Bolton. trump screwed him, from Bolton’s standpoint. trump has loyalty to trump and even then it’s a fleeting thing because he’s all crappy emotion, no thought. Bolton is pissed, this was his best shot at getting his war on that he’s ever going to have again, and trump pissed in his cornflakes.
All of the republicans are in it for themselves. They stick together when it suits their interests, but they can be vindictive assholes if it trips into screwing each of them. trump is the wild card, somewhat, in that while he’s predictable to do the worst possible thing at any time, but exactly what that worst possible thing is, is a wild ass guess by anyone. And who is actually controlling trump? What is their actual goal and can they pull it off? The real question is how does this play out for each of the king makers or king destroyers?
It ain’t over by a long shot.
NotMax
@patrick II
Roberts does not get a vote.
Chyron HR
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Sanders IA organizer gets at their strategy: “really what we want to be planning for is being the LOUDEST and MOST VIOLENT team in the field so that ppl feel sincerely concerned for their personal safety if they steal the nomination from Bernie again.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ruckus: I forget which WaPo reporter yesterday made the point that Bolton fell out with Bush II, after going to the mat for him as UN Ambassador, because Bolton thought Bush’s North Korea policy was too weak. As I recall, that policy was to engage in indirect discussions. So what Bolton must think of trading photo ops for nukes…
Another Scott
@JMG: Maybe.
If the Teabaggers call him, they will scream about him for their 5 minutes, without giving him time to respond, get their sound-bite for some Twitter video clip, and declare victory.
As LOLGOP says, “Republicans don’t lie to be believed. They lie to be repeated.” The idea in calling him – if they do – is to feed the memes, not get real information.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Any Democrat consistently winning in WV these days isn’t an idiot. He’s doing something right.
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Just prior to the leaked book manuscript:
ETA: Read somewhere that the Warmbiers are wingnuts, but even if that’s so, it has GOT to piss them off to see Trump waddling around with the horrifying autocrat whose regime murdered their son.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
he sounds more frightened than I would have thought, given the obstacles between him and witness-less acquittal appear to be the collective courage of Mitt Romney, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, and one more (Lamar!? Burr?)
Just Chuck
@Betty Cracker: Gotta say, Bolton’s stache looks a lot better now that it matches his hair color.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: heart-breaking to think of what that kid must’ve gone through, and his parents. I remember trump wheezing that “our beautiful Otto” was one of the reasons he was gonna rain fire and fury on the nasty little creature who has bought off trump by calling him “Your Excellency”
@Another Scott: okay— I do try to remember that he took a stand on gun safety that I thought was the end of his career. But saying Hunter Biden is relevant is stupid
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and a “Sir” story to boot!
Frankensteinbeck
To everyone who says the Republican ‘moderates’ always fall in line: McConnell did not get his Obamacare repeal, and I challenge anyone who saw his face when the vote failed to tell me he didn’t want that repeal with all his rotting heart and putrid soul. Hell, if they always fell in line, this trial would already be over. Repblicans fall in line until they don’t.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Weren’t most of the House witnesses, Republicans?
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Libyan Model? What’s her name?
Betty Cracker
@Frankensteinbeck: Great point. More than one pessimist predicted McConnell would figure out a way to dismiss the charges before the House managers even made their case. I still believe the odds are against witnesses, but it all hinges on the cost-benefit analyses individual Republican senators are doing, not on the wiles of McConnell.
MattF
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That ‘sir’ is the biggest tell, the Grand Canyon of Tells.
Another Scott
In other news, …
This is my shocked, shocked face.
Eyes on the prizes….
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Laughing. Sorry, did not mean to be insulting! I guess it’s the scary-looking mustaches that stick in the mind, as opposed to the much more common clean and well-groomed ones.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: @Mary G:
Most excellent ad! :: tears ::
edit: can you imagine, as a parent, getting that call from the dumpster? I shudder at the thought.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: Catches the germs before they make it to the nose. That works.
Shalimar
@NotMax: Roberts doesn’t get a vote, but he does get to rule on which side wins if it is 50-50. Which is basically the same as the deciding vote.
Joey Maloney
If both sides get to submit witnesses they want called, fuck it, submit Donald John Trump’s name. Let’s watch the Senate GOP vote against calling the guy who swears up and down he’s innocent.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Another good reason to wax down there.
trnc
I hope not. He should be able to handle on his own, and it wouldn’t look good if he was coached by anyone involved. I’d just like for every answer to contain the statement “I have not received any indication that I am under investigation by the Trump DOJ or any other agency.”
WaterGirl
@Baud: Nyet
edit: I think that’s french for “no fucking way!”. Am i right?
Barry
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
“a bigger fool that Justice Taney”
Taney wasn’t a fool, he was a villain. And he’s only a villain because he lost.
Another Scott
@Shalimar: I don’t think that’s right.
If it’s 50:50, the motion (whatever it is) fails to get a majority so it fails.
Cheers,
Scott.
Peale
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah. Bolton the “whistleblower” is still venial so he gets no sympathy points for me as every loon and his uncle is probably making death threats for betrayal right now. He can say his peace and be gone forever.
Though it never works like that. I’m sure he’ll be welcomed back. Its not like he molested girls. That might get him banned until he does a fundraiser for Harvard. He just kind of likes the idea of children missing limbs after bombs fall on their schools. That makes him delightful company.
Ksmiami
@James E Powell: his legacy will ultimately be burnt to the ground when the majority decides a tyrannical Supreme Court blocking every thing is not worth having…
randy khan
@Shalimar:
The one thing they can’t do is run to the courts. Roberts is the final arbiter.
This is America – anybody can file a lawsuit. But both because the claim would make no sense and because Roberts is given the role of presiding under the Constitution, I think any suit would be given short shrift.
Ksmiami
@Chyron HR: why I’ll never vote for Bernie.
Kent
No lower court in the land is going to overrule Justice Roberts ruling from the bench of the Senate in impeachment trial. Think about that for a moment. They don’t even have the jurisdiction. They would never even hear the case.
L85NJGT
McConnell hasn’t been right since his fall. Hanging in there as Majority Leader until age eighty-four isn’t realistic regardless of election results, so that changes the political calculations for caucus members.
MisterForkbeard
@JMG: Eh. I think we’d get a couple hours of character assassination. “Tell us about your past drug problems”. “How did you get the job at Burisma?” “Why were you paid so much more than you deserved?” “Were you happy when you father extorted Ukraine into removing the prosecutor who was targeting your company?”
Etc. It would make for “good” TV for the Republicans. Because Hunter basically has nothing to do with the real case, but they don’t care. They would slime Hunter and Joe, and then pretend that Trump was fully justified.
randy khan
@patrick II:
I understand that Roberts isn’t filling in for the Vice President, but that he’s simply acting as the presiding officer. That means that he doesn’t have a vote (and also means that his rulings can be overturned by a majority vote of the Senate).
retr2327
@bbleh: I’m not sure I agree. First, note that in the most recent poll, 82%(!) of the public wanted to hear Bolton testify. R Senators hoping to stick to the claim that Trump did not personally order the hold as a way to pressure Ukraine for an announcement of the investigation have to hope that Bolton only makes the claim in a book (which they can discount as “not reliable”), not under oath. But if that testimony comes out later under oath in the House, it’s pretty hard to explain why they never called for that testimony during the impeachment.
Second, it’s not clear how much his testimony would get tied up in the courts. The problem Trump has is that a claim of executive privilege fails if the testimony at issue bears on a possible crime. The crime/fraud exception more commonly arises in the context of attorney/client privilege, but is certainly applicable here. Bear in mind that the IG already found withholding the aid violated the ICA. So a claim of exec. privilege would cause a court to hold that there was a potential crime involved; that’s not necessarily something the Admin. would want to actually cause to occur.
Third, and least, I’m not sure the Senate would, or should, have any hesitation about “interfering” with a pending House investigation. They each have their roles to play. It’s quite different if it’s a pending DOJ investigation.
randy khan
@Kent:
I get what you’re saying, but the way things work is not that you file a lawsuit, and then a judge looks at it and says “nope, not going to take that one.” (This is a good thing, not a bad thing.) The House Managers would have to respond to the suit and tell the judge there is no jurisdiction before anything would happen. Like I said, it should be over very quickly (and I doubt any judge would grant a stay during an appeal, either), but that’s different from there being no suit.
And, of course, there’s always the possibility that Trump claims executive privilege and a witness says “I can’t testify,” in which case the Managers would have to figure out how to enforce the subpoena, which might mean going to court.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
IANAL but as I understand it, they can’t stop John Bolton from testifying freely, and while IANA friend of John Bolton, and I get that he’s a hard-core, lib-hating right-winger, but he also strikes me as an angry man who would want to settle scores in any way he can
Barbara
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I probably disagree with John Bolton on every material political position I can think of, but he has never struck me as a stooge of foreign powers. What I don’t know is whether he would be willing to pull his punches (if not lie outright) for some greater objective or leverage. The fact that his book is so blunt suggests not, but one never really knows.
James E Powell
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I can’t believe that he is stupid, but he is very clearly wrong. He could be a loyal Democrat just by keeping his mouth shut. It’s not like what he does now is going to matter in 2024 when he will be 77 years old.
Betty Cracker
Rep. Eliot Engel says he reached out to Bolton back in September (after Bolton was fired) to see if he’d talk to the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and Bolton said they should look into Ambassador Yovanovitch’s firing and implied something improper was going on. Dayum!
The Dems have been patiently sitting on this for months.
Suzy
@zhena gogolia: From the top of my head… Add to that a vast experience in foreign policy, lots of connection with leadership in many countries all over the world. On the domestic front, a mix of progressive and pragmatic propositions, a genuine connection to middle-class and working-class Americans. And as far as character… warmth, authenticity, total lack of calculation and artifice, and an immense sense of empathy towards others. Oh… and a profound, profound respect of the Constitution and of the Institutions of government.
Mr. Biden has his flaws, but I’m sick to death of the condescension and the bashing.
Last note: Mr. Biden struggled in the beginning of his campaign. I think he was very nervous, experienced for the first time being a front runner and having everybody gunning for him. Had to struggle against his stutter more than usual which could explain the lapses of concentration. But he seems to have adapted and is getting stronger.
Bill Arnold
@Joey Maloney:
I’ve been wondering why this hasn’t been discussed.
Chris Johnson
@Betty Cracker: Not all wingnuts are going to be down with turning over the US to Putin and gleefully giving away all its geopolitical power.
I would think this was obvious, but apparently it’s more of a subtle point.
There are still going to be Russia Hawk neocons who have been left out of the loop, and because of the Republican method of falling in line and not asking questions, it’s taking THIS LONG for them to fully comprehend what has been obvious to us.
Not all of them are going to surrender to Russia. There are going to be other wingnuts, desperate to nuke some country or other, watching Trump ‘negotiate’ away all of America’s ability to murder all those people, and capable of putting two and two together, figuring out that Putin pulled off a bloodless coup and is destroying America.
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the Warmbiers caught up with Bolton, they compared notes and worked out that Trump is literally working for Russia, and at that point they swore a blood oath to take him and Putin out. These people hold grudges and are NOT all totally hollow reality show personalities who don’t care who’s pulling the strings.
If you run across anything else like that, Betty, please try and connect the dots: what breaking points could be pointed to? With Bolton I think it’s his Russia hawkishness, that has been proved justified. With the Warmbiers, Trump kisses up to the dictator that killed their son. How many other Republicans are out there who could be driven too far?
JaySinWA
I hope they take his money and give interviews afterwords about how they took the suckers for all they were worth.
J R in WV
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.):
Actually, the moderates will hand the extremists a Bic lighter (or some kitchen matches, or a propane torch!) to set it all on fire, and then say “I had no hand in this blaze!”
J R in WV
@WaterGirl:
Works the other way, filters out many sources of infection. Heh!
J R in WV
@Another Scott:
Perhaps, but Manchin is the sitting branch of a family that has been big in WV politics for two generations. A. James Manchin was appointed director of a clean-up program for junk cars and such trash all over the state called R.E.A.P., then elected to the House of Delegates, was then Secretary of State for multiple terms until he fatally decided to run for State Treasurer, in which office his staff managed to lose nearly a billion dollars of state investment funds.
A. James still managed to avoid prison time, by throwing his assistant who was supposed to be the investment wizard under the bus. But people still loved A. James, partly because he wore wide brimmed hats back when any hat was an extreme fashion choice. He also told great stories.
Many of A. James Manchin’s relatives (cousins and nephews mostly) have succeeded in WV politics since then, Senator Uncle Joe is just the most prominent of the family. Joe’s only real job was selling carpet, actually. He probably won’t ever need to run again.
Just Chuck
@Chris Johnson:
“It’s the economy, stupid.” Most will only turn if they stand to personally lose something, and their portfolio value in the current economy (or at least its remaining inertia) plus the tax cut means T is still their guy. On the other hand, Bolton has principles. Fairly fucked-up principles, but still. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it’s an ethos.
Just Chuck
@J R in WV: On the other hand, you’re getting robbed of beer.