I realize this is kind of bullshit topic but I keep thinking about it…Trump is obviously an asshole who was undoubtedly a shitty father. Ivana hates him, accused him of rape in their divorce proceedings. So…what’s the deal with Eric and Don Jr. and Ivanka? Do you they think he’s an asshole too and just want the inheritance and general free ride or what? I don’t get it. I’m curious if anyone knows anything about the psychology of these kinds of situations.
Speaking of people who suck up to Donald, let’s make vulnerable Republican Senators pay for going along with this sham trial. Give here to a fund split equally between eventual Democratic nominees in Maine, Iowa, North Carolina, Colorado, Georgia, and Arizona.
LongHairedWeirdo
I think they see him like the asshole boss of a “vulture capitalism”-style firm – if the proverbial (if not actual) hookers and blow still show, they’ll accept him. I think he’ll turn into an abusive, controlling dad the moment an honest verdict is returned (so, probably from an actually impartial jury).
Mikeindublin
Would be cool if someone could focus in on state houses and governorships where Dems can maintain or keep control to help with redistricting after the census and add in a bit of actblue $$$ drives for them as well.
just a little goes a long way for control of the state houses.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yes, and… in my experience, very few people ever get over daddy/mommy issues. Especially Fredo, who’s the oldest, the namesake, the one whose mother still tells (publishes!) stories about how distinterested his father was in him as if they’re amusing, the one who sees Jared proclaimed The Son I Wish I’d Had at every turn… these are some damaged people. They’re also awful and irredeemable.
related, I am continuously astounded to what degree daddy issues (and maybe mommy issues, but it’s less obvious) fuck up our politics, and media (McCain, the Bushes, Lindsey, Tim Russert…). I never realized what a relatively healthy relationship I had with my father till I became a political junkie.
smintheus
The kids are as poisonous as the father. They choose to behave like snakes, who cares what these privileged brats think within their inner snakey thoughts?
Nicole
According to teh Google, re: the inheritability of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
“The causes of NPD aren’t well understood. However, inherited genetic defects are thought to be responsible for many cases of NPD. Contributing environmental factors may include: childhood abuse or neglect.”
I’d say there’s an excellent chance of both genetics and environment where the Trumps are concerned.
Anecdotal so take it with as many grains of salt as you like, but a educator acquaintance of mine related a story from a colleague who taught at the school where Jr.’s kids attend here in NYC and saw him take a phone call and walk out of the school auditorium during his kid’s school performance… while his own child was the one performing.
Maybe the kids are all damaged and competing for love from a tangerine who is incapable of feeling that emotion, but it’s also entirely possible they’re just also terrible people themselves.
WindyCityCat
@Mikeindublin: Future Now Fund is focused on that: https://www.futurenow.org/. I’ve given to them a few times since a little money goes a long way at the lower levels.
Kay (not the front-pager)
Done. Got my SS check early this month so I made a nice big donation this time (don’t worry, I’m not dependent on living on SS, I can afford to donate).
I don’t know the psychology of the kids of narcissists. I imagine they’re pretty screwed up, at least those three seem to be. Marla’s kid doesn’t seem as twisted, but then it seems like her mom kept her a safe distance from her dad as much as possible. I look forward to reading what others have to say.
trollhattan
@LongHairedWeirdo:
“He may be an asshole, but he’s our asshole.”
That the fundys all embrace him–to a one–tells us everything we need to know about the depth of their values and makes Goldwater’s comments ring sadly true. They cannot be reasoned with, which is something I need Biden to acknowledge.
Nicole
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I agree with you re: daddy issues. I have yet to meet a right-winger who does not have them.
MJS
Apples, trees. It’s congenital. Fred Trump was in the KKK, right? There’s nothing but pieces of shit going all the way back, so there’s nothing mysterious about Ivanka, et al. And I’ll bet a lot of money that their offspring also end up being pieces of shit.
Percysowner
Being greedy and doing evil things does not preclude having been abused as a child. At the very least, Trump’s personality is the type that would emotionally abuse his kids. Ivanka had the added pressure of him being very, very vocal about being sexually attracted to her, which is abuse of a different shade. He (and Ivana) also lived and taught their kids that money was first and foremost and the most important thing in the world, partly because it lets you get what you want and get away with everything. I suspect the kids are very, very damaged. They are also terrible people, who do terrible things. I can feel sympathy for their painful childhood while simultaneously hating their current actions, no matter what psychological damage they suffered.
germy
MattF
Larkin:
More generous than I would be, but still all true.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Nicole: it got surprisingly little attention, all things considered, but when Jr got divorced it came out that he’d had a fairly public affair with some B-list (maybe A list, as established below, I’m old and out of touch) singer who even wrote a song about him. Shades of daddy humiliating mommy in Aspen.
He also pretty aggressively pursued women on twitter while married to the mother of his five (god help us) children. Again, compare the coverage of that to the coming coverage of Hunter’s paternity suit.
Emerald
@trollhattan: Biden will never acknowledge that, although he knows it.
Just isn’t politic to acknowledge it. Biden’s the old pro politician. He’s never going to say out loud that “we just can’t get along.”
jonas
The Trumps have gotten away with incredible shit for years mostly because supine DAs and regulators in NYC and elsewhere didn’t want to deal with having to take down a rich celebrity who could afford powerful lawyers and turn the town’s media against them. And now he’s president with an utterly corrupt DOJ who could make things even more unpleasant for them.
I think when Trump’s out of office, however, whether sporting prison orange or not, giving legal and regulatory colonoscopies to every one of his businesses will become the new national pastime for elected officials looking to burnish their anti-corruption creds. I doubt Ivanka and the boys will want to be running anything that still bears the Trump name.
SiubhanDuinne
I don’t for one second stand up for DJT as father, spouse, or normal human being. However, I have to think that Ivana herself may bear no small measure of responsibility for how Don Jr, Ivanka, and Eric turned out. They were brought up by her after the divorce and saw much more of her than they did of their father, for years.
Again, I hold no brief for Trump Sr as a parent, but I’m reluctant to blame him exclusively for all the awfulness of the three oldest kids.
jonas
@Percysowner: I forget where it was first reported, but there’s an (in)famous story from when one of the Trump boys — IIRC, it was Eric — was in college and his dad came down to take him to a baseball game or some other event. He found Eric hanging with some friends in a t-shirt and jeans or something, walked up, slapped him across the face, and told him to “put on a fucking suit” and “get in the car.”
Can you imagine what the guy was like in private? There’s no way these people are not deeply, deeply screwed up being raised by someone like that.
The Moar You Know
I have asshole/abusive parents (divorced, natch) one of whom is and always was a raging narcissist, who both actually went out of their way to do a lot of net-positive things in my life. An upbringing like that is fucking VERY complicated.
I can say this: they know their dad is an asshole. No question about that. Just like I know that both my parents are complete assholes who, but for the grace of money, whiteness and social standing, would probably both be in jail.
But they’re also always going to reflexively defend him, because without him, they wouldn’t even be managing a McDonald’s and they all know it. Just like I defend mine. Because without what my parents did for me, I might be aspiring to manage a McDonald’s myself.
Mostly, I just want my parents to hurry the fuck up and die, not for the inheritance (unlike the Trump kids, I made sure my future wasn’t going to be tied to my parent’s use of money as a tool of control) but because, well, they were abusive and I don’t like them very much. Given that they were very young when they had me, both have more money than they know what to do with, and are in excellent health, I may suffer the fate of one John McCain and die in my eighties with one parent still alive. Possibly both. There’s a hell I’d like to avoid. I’d like to go to my grave knowing that, for a short while, that I was truly free of them.
I imagine the Trump kids feel pretty much the same way. With one exception. They’re not worried about their parents outliving them. I’m jealous of that.
Shalimar
@SiubhanDuinne: The two narcissists I know best had fathers who were either gone or never home, but they also had mothers who were very busy and not emotionally available people. They are aware of the daddy issues but don’t seem aware of the mothering shortcomings at all. Nothing I have ever seen about Ivana suggests she was available for much parenting despite being responsible for all the childcare.
Kylroy
@Emerald: Does he know it, though? The Obama administration desperately tried to work with Republicans, and got nothing. Biden was there as VP, plus has been in politics long enough to remember working with a GOP that was sometimes interested in governing , *plus* is prone to blurting out unpolished opinions when he shouldn’t – why should we think his regular praise of bipartisanship is just a front?
Ruckus
@Nicole:
No one is perfect. Some are a lot farther away than others.
trump is so far out of there on the perfect scale, so far out that it’s actually easy to see how far away he is. With a telescope. He was raised poorly, he’s highly narcissistic, which is never going to allow him to raise kids even half assed well because everything in his world is about him. Nothing is about his kids, other than how he looks to them and how others see them as his. His kids could be OK, but they would have to break from him completely and he won’t allow that and whatever money he may actually have is quite probably a driving force in their lives. IOW the kids would have to recognize that he is as horrible as we think he is and get out. Like Ronnie Jr did. But his kids live in an extreme narcissist world that revolves around money. The odds are not good for them. And from the looks of it, they aren’t going to wake up anytime soon.
robmassing
@MJS:
This.
Butch
Well, so here’s Ivanka at Davos, whining that “I gave up my life for Washington.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/world/europe/ivanka-trump-davos.html
Nicole
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, that was a read. Good grief. I’d like to think his 5(!) kids will do better without him there, but after reading that the now ex-Mrs. Trump called the other woman and then put their 5-year-old daughter on the call… because that’s fine parenting, right there… gad. zooks.
trollhattan
@Kylroy:
This is my fear. He hasn’t convinced me that he doesn’t believe at least a wee bit that “radical left” Dems are part of the reason Republicans won’t come to the table and cut deals. His senate and congress were so vastly different from today’s and no amount of Tweety reminiscing about Dutch and Tip are bringing that back. (Not that going back to Reagan would fix one damn thing.)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kylroy: It. Doesn’t. Fucking. Matter. If. He. Knows. It.
Obama “tried desperately” to work with Republicans because for most of his presidency they controlled one or both houses of Congress. That will be true for Presidents Clueless Joe, Fightin’ Liz and even Bernie Dumbledore unless we do something about the Senate.
trollhattan
@Butch:
“Shut up, stupid lady.”
WereBear
It’s one thing to ditch even a comfortable upbringing to go independent from toxic parents. It also makes it likely a person went to public schools and had friends from a variety of background. This can make a great difference to people understanding a bad job of parenting, simply by seeing alternatives.
But this is not so available to the children of lots o’ money; they go to private schools with kids with the same problems, have relatives who are no better than their own parents, and make friends in very tightly monitored circles.
When everyone you are allowed to know are also grifters and brats, how can anyone tell the difference?
Gin & Tonic
@Nicole: They are all irredeemable assholes. Every one of them, children, spouses, everyone. I don’t give a shit what any of them think about anything, I just want them all to sink into the obscurity they so richly deserve.
Cacti
The only one who seems vaguely normal is the one from whose life he was largely absent. Tiffany.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It matters at least WRT appointments. The next Dem president must not fall for the trap of appointing “centrists” in order to get Turtle to confirm them. Cabinet, judiciary, ambassadorships, whatever, pick the best person and do not try and please the monsters by picking lesser talent.
mrmoshpotato
Not worth the time or mental stress. Fuck ’em.
Nicole
@Gin & Tonic: I wouldn’t be opposed to that, either. That’s my biggest fear if/when a Dem is back in- that they’ll let it all go. Or, nail DJT but not go after his criminal kids, too (hi, Cy Vance Jr! I see you there!).
hells littlest angel
I’m pretty sure they would only care about what’s in the will even if their father was a saint.
Mike in DC
Barron is the big question mark. Will he turn out relatively well, or will he be the worst of the bunch?
I suspect that he’s going to be interviewed for something in the next decade, and it will be illuminating.
kindness
Trump’s kids obviously want the cash. Look at the family dynamics. Trump’s dad cut his oldest son out of the will. Funny thing is Trump will probably die with very little actual money (but large loans to Putin).
Cacti
Didn’t other family members say that Donald had the old man’s will changed when he was suffering from dementia?
This sounds entirely consistent with his demonstrated character.
oatler.
No wonder the tories are trying to shut down the Beeb.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51236915
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Ruckus:
It didn’t make any difference apparently for Tiffany Trump who got away from him early. She gave a speech for her father at the 2016 RNC Convention and in 2018 (or was it 2019?) went along with all the other Trump spawn to the UK state visit.
This is after the migrant babies in cages came out and a lot of other fucked up shit was exposed about him and admin. Apparently didn’t matter to Tiffany! She just wanted to wear a pretty dress on a red carpet and meet The Royals, I guess.
I mean, I know Trump is her father, but JFC, have a moral compass. She didn’t have to go on that UK state visit. Make up an excuse
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: the NYT story about Fred’s various tax scams included a report that donnie was trying to get Fred– already suffering from dementia– to change his will to favor donnie over his three surviving siblings. Fred was confused but alert enough to be suspicious and called Maryann, the corrupt judge, to come in and tell donnie to back off. Little brother wasn’t getting his mitts on her pile.
JDM
Do you really think any one of them could’ve gotten a job with any kind of remotely similar pay?
Richard Guhl
@MJS: You can take it back a generation to Friedrich, who came to the US as a broke shoemaker and left a $600,000 estate in 1918.
He evidently built and ran brothels/gambling/drug dens in the Yukon during the Klondike gold rush. Anything for a buck.
kindness
@Cacti: Could have. I don’t know but we all know Donald would do exactly that. Still, I have to blame the parents for not having an iron clad will set up.
For what ever reason the system I use at work won’t allow me to use the reply feature.
Zzyzx
So you’re a candidate who wants to win the Democratic Party nomination but you’re having problems with women and minorities being interested in your cause. Why not gloat that a racist misogynist supports you. That will calm their fears!
I am getting tired of my white male friends all explaining that we’re corrupting them and it’ll be great. Sure, nothing bad ever happens economic populism joins with racism.
(Google Joe Rogan if you need the background)
The Pale Scot
@The Moar You Know:
elderly people need to ‘hurry up and die’,
Japanese minister Taro Aso
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Zzyzx: I don’t know enough about Rogan, but you confirm my sense of him.
trollhattan
Brave Sir Lindsay bravely ran away.
sdhays
@SiubhanDuinne: It helps to remember that each of their mothers decided that Donny Dump was husband and father material, and two of them actually stole him from her predecessor. None of them are good people.
trollhattan
@Richard Guhl:
As well as establishing the family pattern of draft-dodging. Not that conscription to the Kaiser’s army was a stroll in the Wald or anything.
Baud
@Zzyzx:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’ve heard the name but didn’t know that about him.
If he’s who I’m thinking of, I think Obama appeared on his show near the end of his term.
ET
Don’t historians always say the Georgian monarchs hated each other. This is what I think of the tRump Klan.
Dads do what they can to undermine and keep the sons weak and when the sons grow up they do the same because that is what they know of father/son relationships. All because the olders feel threatened by the youngers. The daughters get a pass because they are female and no real threat, but the daughters don’t like the dad but still think the brothers are pathetic. Ultimately, they are all weak. The cycle repeats because none of them get out (or are allowed out) and they have to exist and perpetuate the toxic environment because it is all they know and they know no other way to be. They grow up thinking “someday…someday I can be the one at the top treading people badly but no one can treat me that way…” The top of the toxic heap is some sort of reward.
That was my two cent take.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: it doesn’t come up on a quick google. Obama did Marc Maron’s podcast, but I don’t remember him going on Rogan’s
West of the Rockies
Well, the Trump “kids” probably have psychologically conflicted, complicated grief in regards to their father’s “fathering”. But they also no doubt see big, fat, sweaty wads of cash in their futures when he finally checks out,via a massive coronary.
And as for those who support them, I guess it’s like a wrestling fan who identifies with a villain wrestler: it’s all bullshit, but they’re too stupid to know it, OR they know but don’t care cuz they’re winning. Basically, three cheers for the Astros.
Jager
I dated the daughter of a 1%er for a year. The trump’s are paupers compared to her family’s 5 generations of wealth. At their “cottage” (6 bedroom Victorian house) on a private island in Maine, I listened to her mother go on and on about how “these people just don’t want to work anymore”. Their long-time gardener had retired. She was having a tough time getting a Mainer to haul his yard gear over on a boat to cut the god damned grass for short money. I asked if they had a mower and volunteered to cut the grass, they looked at me like I’d lost my mind. My GF hated her mother, but wouldn’t say a word to her.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe I’m confusing the two. I don’t do podcasting so I’m not aware of who the players are.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Zzyzx:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Here’s a bit of information on Rogan from RationaWiki:
Also, speaking of Kulinski, host of Secular Talk on Youtube, he’s an asshole dudebro with a weird anti-“SJW” streak. From RationalWiki:
What a moron
trollhattan
@West of the Rockies:
From my spot in the bleachers Donny Jr and Eric are ALL IN and want to be just like dad, only moreso. Ivanka is mostly in but would allow as to how “it’s complicated.”
The various other players and exes are harder to read and I don’t spend the energy. Although I’d love for Marla to ditch the NDA and spill. Ivana has gone round the bend.
WaterGirl
@jonas: First comment by a new poster has to manually approved, and anything after that happens goes through. But if you make more than one comment before approval, each one has to be approved.
I approved both of yours just now, and anything future will sail through.
If you are new, welcome!
trollhattan
@Jager:
I’ve been around real money but never old money. They truly are a breed apart, aren’t they?
WaterGirl
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): That was way more than the 7 allowable links, so it went into moderation. :-)
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I’d be very surprised if PBO went on Rogan’s show. Could be he did and I just missed hearing about it. But I think that would have caused a splash that even those of us not in Rogan’s target demographic would have heard.
trollhattan
@WaterGirl:
The approval approvals will commence in turn, upon approval.
Got it! :-)
Shalimar
@Baud: I don’t remember Obama appearing on Rogan’s podcast, and it is definitely something Rogan would be gloating about. He’s very slippery, a “just asking questions” misogynistic racist. It’s very hard to pin down anything he says directly, but he is very scumbag-curious and has had pretty much any dick you hate on his show at some point.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@WaterGirl:
Whoops. I just copied and pasted from the article. Didn’t even think about the links.
So what’s it take to be a FPer around these parts? I’d love to be a culture critic/media reviewer or something for the blog.
I’m only being somewhat tongue-in-cheek : )
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
He did a Marc Maron show, in case anybody’s conflating the two. (IDK the other guy.) Maron is solid and Obama’s interview is worth a listen.
smedley the uncertain
Is there a way I can contribute from time to time without subsequently being inundated by a myriad of pleas for contributions from candidates I’ve never heard of.
Cheers all
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: I’ve seen stories that they used to make fun of him among themselves. Ivanka reportedly had a whole bit about his hair that simply slew among her (probably now ex-) chi chi Manhattan friends. I think they all saw the campaign as a career step for them and their “brands”, and the fact that he accidentally won has been like a nuclear spider bite for those ambitions. Though I suspect Ivanka is a bit flummoxed by the whole down-market nature of their customer base now, and Fredo may be the one with a real political future. There’s talk of him establishing residency in Montana.
Baud
@smedley the uncertain: Dummy email address.
chris
Now I have an earworm! Come on people now
Baud
@chris: Haha. I hadn’t seen that one before.
MisterForkbeard
@Emerald: This is something that I think doesn’t really get enough consideration.
Biden (and even all Democrats, I think) can’t say “Republicans just can’t be reasoned or worked with, because they’ve demonstrated a deep lack of good faith, thorough corruption, and no consistent government principles”
They’d get eaten alive by the media. This is despite decades of Republicans saying “Liberals are traitors”
smedley the uncertain
@Baud: My thought too. Thanks
thebewilderness
No one knows better than the child of a malignant narcissist exactly what will happen to them or anyone who thwarts the abuser. They lived it every day. Unless you know what it is to live in fear of a parent’s all powerful rage every day of your childhood it will be very difficult to understand why the victims do not escape.
Leaving an abuser is the most dangerous time. That is when they try to kill us.
Betty Cracker
Regarding Rogan, his shtick seems to attract a lot of youngish to middle-aged white dudes who feel like society persecutes them by pretending to consider the notion that they aren’t the center of the universe. I don’t think Sanders would be getting much flak if he hadn’t made a campaign video of Rogan’s offhand podcast comment that he “would probably” vote for Sanders.
West of the Rockies
@trollhattan:
I think you’re right: I’m granting too much basic humanity and decency to The Wretched Three, Jr., Eric The Dumb, and the First Daughter/Wife (or whatever that plastic and silicone collection of cosmetic surgeries goes by).
Betty Cracker
@MisterForkbeard: That’s definitely the conventional wisdom, but I wonder sometimes if maybe it’s time to give calling the fuckers out in public a shot.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
There is a lot of stuff to shoot at in Montana. They don’t particularly cotton to Easterners, though. Maybe Zinke can mentor him.
thalarctosMaritimus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:I think I think it’s the Between Two Ferns guy, whatever his name is, that you’re looking for.I should have refreshed before posting, but it was Zack G. I was thinking of. I didn’t know about the Maron podcast.
Jager
@trollhattan:
While we were dating, I was promoted to my company’s corporate office in West Palm. I’d made an offer on a little 50s house with a pool in a nice older (for Florida) neighborhood. She came down to see me and she hated the house, she suggested that she look around at houses. The next day she dropped me off at work, picked me later and drove to a double gated community in Palm Beach Gardens, the house she picked out was just down the cul de sac from Celine Dion’s place. 20-foot entry ceiling, commercial kitchen, marble, etc. I said, “I can’t afford a 3 million dollar house!” She smiled, “I can.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
amazing that someone so desperate for attention and respect so frequently beclowns himself in public
trollhattan
@thalarctosMaritimus:
Zack Galifianakis? Obama did appear (once?) on BTF to promote ACA signups. It was pretty darn funny, because Zack doesn’t break character.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: I’ll have to use that one next time!
Mary G
He had his sick infant nephew’s health insurance cancelled to get back at his brother.
The kids have known all their lives that if they cross him he’ll drop them like a hot potato. They’ve made the deal.
CliosFanBoy
@MJS: and grandpa was a pimp and a draft dodger.
Baud
They can’t even call them deplorable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Schiff bringing in video of St McCain on the dangers of Russian influence in Ukraine. I don’t expect it to change any votes, but I hope Lindsey has bedwetting nightmares tonight.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: All I remember is the Between Two Ferns interview.
Mandalay
@jonas: It was Don Jr. rather than Eric….
And just in case the spineless shit ever thinks of running for president himself, he better have a good answer for this accusation:
Marcopolo
@smedley the uncertain: Go to Gmail. Create a new email account which will be the email address you use for any campaign contributions. Make your contributions using that email address. All campaign email spam will go to that inbox. You never have to look at it. Problem solved.
Ruckus
@WereBear:
Nail hit solidly on the head. They live in their own little world, tied to the family by money.
Money makes the world go round – sort of. Also throws a lot of sand in the gears. It’s nice to have some. It’s toxic to have a lot and want a lot more. Most people never see that world other than as observers. But it is toxic to everyone around it unless they leave. And really, why should they? Almost everyone not in that situation has some level of money issues, although some have a pretty weird math. I know of a couple who both work and have a good living from it. House is paid or close to it they make collectively $130K, husband got injured on the job and thought he’d have to retire and they were worried how they’d live on $80K a year. It’s insane that they think they will die of starvation with that kind of income.
trollhattan
@Jager:
Heh! You were looking at homes “the help” live in, you scamp. Ah, golden days of our yoot, in your case including an almost literal golden glow.
My kid has splattered the nation with college apps and especially if she finds herself going off to an Ivy or somesuch, I will need to quiz her on what she knows about the gentry. It takes more than just reading “Great Gatsby.”
I went to a private college and was wholly unprepared for the social realities.
Mnemosyne
To be clear, IANA psychologist or other mental health professional, but my pop psychology reading seems to indicate that most narcissistic families set up a Scapegoat and a Golden Child, and any additional children bounce between those two extremes.
It seems obvious that Ivanka is the Golden Child, Eric is the Scapegoat, and Jr bounces between the two positions as needed — he’s the Golden Child when compared to Eric, but the Scapegoat when compared to Ivanka.
It’s a really, really shitty dynamic that keeps everyone locked in because they get just enough intermittent reinforcement to keep them buying into it.
The only way to get away from a narcissist is to completely cut off contact and walk away. None of the kids is willing to do that for whatever reason. Money is probably one of the big reasons, but not the only one. As WereBear pointed out, they would also become total social outcasts with their entire social circle who would never understand how they could put their mental health over money and social position.
CliosFanBoy
The comic Fowl Language had a good take on it. (safe for work)
https://www.fowllanguagecomics.com/comic/mean-kids/.
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
Colitis and IBS are strongly influenced by one’s mental state, especially if one is under enormous stress.
Just sayin’.
The Dangerman
AppleAsshole doesn’t fall from thetreeDaddy. They’ve been told since they popped out their shit doesn’t stink. That will fuck anyone up, particularly when they learn that their riches started from a whorehouse (I’ll leave how Donald met Melania the hell alone).So, kids are riding the ride, waiting for the payday when Daddy’s ticker goes kablowey (sp?). Course, they will have to fight Melania for the cash but one worry at a time. When Melania takes all of it, Ivanka will write an OJ style book (“If Daddy Did”) because she’ll need the money and she sure as fuck isn’t going to work for it.
trollhattan
Linkie to the Marc Maron WTF podcast with President Obama.
Linkie to Between Two Ferns with President Obama.
It’s Friday, indulge yourselves.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Good point. Also caused by cranial-rectal insertion.
Brachiator
@trollhattan:
I will take a look later. Thanks
Jager
@trollhattan:
Her dad was on the board of ABC. I was in broadcasting, one evening in Greenwich, he and I were sitting in the cool evening air having an after-dinner drink and a couple of his Cuban cigars. I brought up that ABC owned the finest news station in the county, KGO in SF and 450 miles south they have a comparable station in LA that sucks. I asked him why? He was completely unaware of the situation and had a few good questions, I answered and he asked if I wanted him to bring it up at his next meeting. I said “naw”. In retrospect, I should have had him do it. This was before deregulation and ABC only owned 14 radio stations, 7 TV stations, and the network. By today’s standards, it wasn’t that big of a company at the time. Made me wonder what the hell they talked about at the board meetings.
BTW, ABC sold KGO to Citadel for huge money a few years later and managed to destroy 30 years of #1 ratings and financial success in 18 months.
NotMax
Blech. Fails to rise to that. Bullsh*t can be put to positive and productive uses.
In the end, so far as am concerned, the lyrics of Woki Woki sum it up.
Gin & Tonic
@trollhattan: My younger daughter went to an Ivy. Maybe there’s some self-selection in companionship working here, but her close circle of friends, who are mostly still her friends more than a decade later, were (and remain) very nice people. A couple of them were from wealth, but nothing like multi-generational multi-billions. At least one child – not in her closest circle, but in a class or two – of a very familiar Hollywood name, who by all accounts tried very hard to be just another college kid.
Although my daughter did remark once how few of her friends came from families with two parents who lived together and loved each other, but that’s more generational than a wealth marker.
zhena gogolia
WaPo says Drumpf’s approval rating is the highest it’s been.
This country really deserves whatever it gets. But I don’t!
2liberal
OT Paul Wartenburg was posting a few days back he was heading in for surgery. He just updated his facebook page and is back with the living, although probably not looking his best after deviated septum (nose) surgery that went with his pituitary surgery .
WaterGirl
@2liberal: I appreciate the update. I have been wondering how he is doing.
Zzyzx
@Betty Cracker:
That’s why it feels like an own goal. Sanders’ weakness in the primary is that his movement comes across as very white and male in a party that isn’t to that degree. This completely makes him look clueless as to how he comes across to women and ethnic minorities which would make the path to the general less likely.
WaterGirl
@Zzyzx: My perspective is that Sanders is free to make as many own goals as he likes.
chopper
@Richard Guhl:
because he was kicked out of germany for draft dodging.
Gin & Tonic
@Zzyzx: Maybe his movement comes across as very white and male because it is very white and male.
Mnemosyne
@2liberal:
Yay! I’ve always heard that if they get up into the sinus area, doctors will want to fix issues like a deviated septum that aren’t necessarily worth undergoing a full surgery in and of themselves.
Poor guy probably also has a couple of black eyes right now given the way nasal surgery usually goes, but hopefully he feels much better than he looks!
Hilfy
Every time Adam Schiff says Trump “cheated on his election” or “Trump will cheat on the next election”, Schiff warms my heart. We must use these phrases as much as possible to reach his base. “Cheated” should be the word to penetrate the woolliness in their heads.
Schiff’s closing speech right now is magnificent…”Trump will abuse his power again…He must be removed from his office….”
germy
These are the people Biden thinks will reach across the aisle to work with him if he becomes president? They’re calling his son a crook.
Yutsano
@trollhattan:
This is, in fact, exactly how my job works.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: The kid had nasal surgery about 2 months ago, she looked pretty banged up afterwards. Fixed her nose breathing issues.
Gravenstone
@Butch: yer free to quit ANY TIME, Princess Snowflake! But nah, too much money to be made on the grift while in proximity to actual power.
hilts
OT
h/t https://apnews.com/5aba061e7f7c2632a618d491a0a15c87
The Dangerman
@germy:
Reach across the aisle sounds great; so does “with $1 you can win the lottery”. Neither is going to happen any time soon.
I would trade Hunter testifying for Bolton, however. They want Biden to testify? Bring me Trump himself (so that is never going to happen).
Dorothy A. Winsor
I can’t remember which Obama campaign official I heard on a podcast yesterday or the day before, but he said that given current polling, he wouldn’t be surprised if Sanders is the candidate, and he thought Sanders would be the weakest D candidate for the general.
The Moar You Know
@germy: Biden is not stupid. That shit was for the rubes…you know, the press. The Russerts and Tappers. You can’t tell me he did 8 years with Obama and somehow DOES NOT UNDERSTAND that the GOP would rather collectively set themselves on fire than work with a Democratic president on anything. Shit, even the current occupant of the Oval Office knows better than that.
That a shitload of Dems think he sincerely meant a single word of this does not speak well for the collective intelligence of Dem voters.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I wouldn’t be surprised given that he’s consistently polling in second place.
robmassing
@Butch:
LOL that woman. The Trump presidency* has been a huge boon for her, nothing but an extension of her grift. And can you imagine a Democrat complaining about her “sacrifice”?
Yutsano
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Pfft. Wilmer will get to South Carolina and Nevada and get pantsed. Then by Super Tuesday it will be clear again he can’t win the nomination. Oh he’ll get delegates sure. But I think Biden is gonna have this in the end.
Misterpuff
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Also Bill Clinton and probably Obama. I think you only get motivated to run by these issues withe rents.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Jager: Holy shit. Pretty sure I dated her brother in college. Five generations of inherited, utterly unearned and undeserved wealth, check. Maine island with Victorian, check. Complaints about trouble finding good domestic help, check. Looking down on me for a million reasons including having actual skills and being willing to use them, check. Insufferably entitled mother, check.
Horrible people. Last I heard they were all on their second divorces, so bitter they could mix cocktails by breathing on them.
Baud
@Yutsano: We really won’t know what’s what until candidates start dropping out.
germy
@The Moar You Know: Excellent! “He was lying, dummy.”
The Moar You Know
@Dorothy A. Winsor: the current polling that shows Sanders behind Biden by almost 20 points? That polling?
I will agree with the part that Sanders would be the weakest D candidate for the general. Everything that we’ve thrown at Trump (and have slid right off, Jesus, they called Reagan the Teflon president, but he had nothing on Trump in terms of ‘nothing sticking’) they will be able to throw at Sanders…and it will stick. Mostly because Dem voters tend to have minimal standards, and the kiddie pron novels, overt Russian money, and penny-ante corruption are not going to be ignored by them.
Yutsano
@Baud: True. Not a single vote* has been taken. It’s way too early ot prognosticate yet. Although I do live in a state where I have the luxury to not vote for Wilmer should he become the nominee.
*not counting early voting in Minnesota etc.
Aziz, light!
When Trump is out of office and Ivanka has returned to the New York social circuit, will she be shunned and scorned?
“Get the fuck away from me, Princess Complicity.”
Sure hope so.
Mnemosyne
@germy:
I think it’s more that Biden was saying that he would be open to working with any Republican that expressed a willingness to work with him, but he wasn’t going to go out of his way to approach them.
Also, did you see my suggestions yesterday re: a sleep study?
Baud
@The Moar You Know:
Which poll has that big a spread?
Baud
Plenty sticks to Trump, which is why he’s never gone above 50% approval. Nothing sticks with respect to his die-hard fans, however.
Mnemosyne
@The Moar You Know:
The Berners are still 1,000% convinced that if they can just get their guy the nomination, millions of people who don’t currently vote will rush to the polls to cast their vote for him in the general election.
This has never actually happened in the entire electoral history of any democratic country, but they’re convinced it totally will.
Carol
@Mikeindublin:
^this
germy
@Mnemosyne: Yes I did, thank you.
I had one about fifteen years ago.
Chris Johnson
@zhena gogolia: Among which Russians??
Mnemosyne
@germy:
Get a new one. Things change with age. If nothing turns up, I’ve heard good things about insomnia-specific CBT.
ETA: My CPAP is wonderful and I use it every night, and for naps, too.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: It’s a no-win situation for us if he’s the nominee. Either people show up to save the country from Trump, and his people gloat and berate Democrats for four years. Or people don’t show up and Trump wins, and his people demonize centrists and women and people of color for the loss.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: I actually should have had a sleep study for my insomnia a long time ago. Except I know the cause: I’m not wired to be a morning person. Current job requires me to wake up much earlier than my body wants to. Ergo: Sleep before midnight is almost impossible.
If it wasn’t for my job I would love to try CBD for several issues I have.
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
That seems weird because there’s also polling showing that 2/3rds of the respondents say that Trump should be convicted in the Senate impeachment trial.
Somebody’s pollsters are very confused.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: People are separating job performance from wrong-doing. And job performance is mostly about the current economy rather than any “job” Trump is performing.
Jager
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Did the mother have her initials on the driver’s door of her S Class?
Chyron HR
@germy:
Wow, sick bern, bro. At least Biden isn’t (checks notes) telling people he was the leader of the civil rights movement in the 60s and having his supporters send death threats to any black politicians who disagree.
WaterGirl
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I felt a little queasy when I read that.
@Baud:
Now I feel downright sick to my stomach.
Betty Cracker
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Small world!
Yutsano
@WaterGirl: I just don’t see how the non-Democratic nominee can win in a majority-minority party with so little minority support. Sounds like the weights in the polls are off again.
Kathleen
@Baud: You’re probably thinking of Marc Maron. Rogan is very transphobic and compared African Americans to monkeys on Planet of the Apes. Among other things. I have a problem with Democratic ticket with candidates being endorsed by David Duke (Tulsi) and racists like Rogan and Cenk or Sink or whatever TYT guy is called. In fact I’m furious about it.
WaterGirl
@Jager: @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
I really want to know if you guys were dating the same family!
Zzyzx
@Baud: I’ve been hearing that thing all day about the extra millions.
Do I think a Sanders campaign could excite a few extra voters, maybe even enough to swing some states. Yes, not impossible. But it also comes with the risk that some disgruntled Trump voters who were just planning to stay home might be more interested in turning out than against a more bland Biden that they’re less afraid of. We don’t have control Earths to test these theories out.
trollhattan
Get a load of this poll.
53% of Sanders supporters sure they will support the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is. Only Yang skews worse while Warren and Pete supporters do not show anybody with “no.” (Klobuchar oddly missing.)
jk
@The Moar You Know:
No, actually Biden is stupid. He’s so stupid he couldn’t find his own ass with both hands and a map. If he beats Trump, McConnell will eat his lunch every single day.
I’ll put my faith in the judgment of Warren, Klobuchar, or Pete from South Bend anytime over a stone cold stupid buffoon like Uncle Joe,
Baud
@trollhattan: Sounds like we should support Yang.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan:
That sounds like a threat. Who is this person? A Berner?
Dorothy A. Winsor
@WaterGirl:
It scared me too. He was talking about the Des Moines Register poll that showed Sanders in the lead in Iowa and then another poll that showed him with a strong lead in NH.
Yutsano
@jk: Show me on the doll where Joe Biden touched you.
@Baud: Yang Xiao Long?
WaterGirl
@Yutsano: As far as I can tell, jk has been vociferously anti-Biden, starting with his very first comment on Balloon Juice.
germy
@Chyron HR: I’m in camp Warren, but thanks for playing.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Iowa and NH are among his best states though. That one Iowa poll had him in first (although it’s a good polling outfit) and other polls had him behind Biden in Iowa.
Baud
@Yutsano: At this point, why not?
Yutsano
@WaterGirl: Oh I know. But it’s approaching ridiculous proportions. I’m hoping that I convey my lack of seriousness here. Because it’s gotten almost to parody with them.
trollhattan
@WaterGirl:
IDK, it was embedded in somebody else’s tweet. Kids these days. And yeah, Berners are pretty strident with the my way or the highway act.
“You like you some Donny? Keep it up, pal.”
satby
@trollhattan: Warren and Pete both talk about beating Trump as a united party is job 1, so it makes sense that their supporters know vote blue no matter who is their candidates’ stance.
Jager
@Betty Cracker:
Two kids, the daughter 18 years older than the brother. Brother rowed on Yale’s heavyweight crew. And btw, the brother was adopted and my GF always (always) called him my adopted brother. We went to the Harvard-Yale regatta in CT. The adopted bro had a cute, dark-haired GF. Maybe?
NIce tent at the regatta, cold lobster, full bar, her dad and I put some cold beers in a bucket, walked down and sat on the river bank to watch the races while mommy socialized. My GF joined us after she couldn’t take it anymore.
Just Chuck
@The Moar You Know:
FTFY
trollhattan
@satby:
Naive me thinks it’s self-evident and as it turns out, it needs stating–out loud and often–to sink in. Oy.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@WaterGirl: @Jager:
Based on the additional details about the dad that Jager has given – likely not. Could be cousins, I suppose, and there is a Yale/CT link – I’m not sure how many family members had access to the island, and there are lots of private islands in Maine. It’s disheartening to realize how many sets of these awful people there are in the world.
Also, agree about KGO. It went from reliable local/national source to WTF almost overnight.
JoeyJoeJoe
@Mnemosyne: Rasmussen polls are skewing the average. The firm always puts out polls that give Republicans higher numbers than other polls
Patricia Kayden
Ain’t that the truth.
Jager
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
She was so “normal” most of the time, but her privilege would come screaming out. After I moved to FL, she came down for 4th of July, my boss had a big party, she was in the kitchen with his wife and daughter and told them we were getting married. News to me, since we’d never discussed it. About 6 months after we broke up, she called me one night. “I just got out of surgery” was her opening line. I said, “Oh my god what happened!” She said, “I got new boobs, I just thought you should know.”
glory b
PJ
@Mnemosyne: I think many (all?) of those who say this think this because they personally would not vote for anyone but Bernie, and have sat out other elections (except maybe to write in Bernie in 2016) and would be happy to sit out the impending election if it doesn’t feature Bernie. So they imagine there must be millions of other people just like them who are itching to vote, but only if they can vote for Bernie.
This ties in with that video of the rally with his supporters chanting that Bernie is “the One!” The One will gather the lost millions of voters to him to lead the people to the promised land of Socialism, but no one else can do that, because they are not “the One”.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Jager: Yikes. Hope you made a clean getaway.
Marcopolo
@Yutsano: You know, I don’t know what is going to happen. But I think everyone needs to keep in mind that delegates in the D primaries are doled out on a percentage basis (not winner takes all), that although it is true that Biden is polling better among AA than any other candidate he is not polling like Clinton did vs Sanders among AA (which is what allowed her to really clean up in the southern primaries), if Sanders wins IA & NH there will be a bump for him–both polling & $$. Theoretically the nomination could go to the wire except for all the front loaded contests which means the majority of delegates will be doled out by the end of March. I follow this stuff pretty closely. As far as I can tell it is a toss up atm. I still think there is a non-trivial chance we see a convention where no one has a majority of delegates. The thing to keep an eye on is who flames out next & where their support goes.
One would think that Amy’s support would go to Biden; that Buttigieg’s support would go either Biden or Bloomberg (who will be in it till the end no matter how many delegates he wins); Wang’s folks probably go to Bernie; Tulsi’s folks go to Trump; Warren’s folks–I dunno, I am a Warren folk and atm I am not sure who my second choice is but she says she is going all the way no matter what. I assume Sanders & Biden are in it till the convention. I think everyone else’s support is pretty negligible.
But bottom line, I would not count Sanders out at this time.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
One has to separate themselves from the narcissist to survive relatively unscathed. I would imagine that money would complicate the separation, especially a lot of it. A lot of people, myself included have “walked away,” even if not actually left. I learned early to listen, and acknowledge but ignore. The one time I didn’t/couldn’t I paid for, but still learned from.
satby
@glory b: that is blessed! Condolences, glory b. We always miss them, but it gets better with time. And what a comfort to know how much he was loved by so many!
trollhattan
@glory b:
You’re in my thoughts, and blessings be upon your wonderful dad.
Ruckus
@Zzyzx:
Is it more than just how it looks? I think it is. He lives in a rather coddled world, very white state, a decent paying job in a rather white profession, up until very recently.
Jay
Rogan came out of The Man Show, which was a Comedy Central “manfest”. Alumni hosts of the show have had their lives go two different ways. They either became “woke”, decent people and went on to have, ( and continue to have) great entertainment careers, ( despite getting their start with juvenile, sexist fart jokes),
Or they took The Man Show themes as “real” and not “snark”, and became shits like Joe Rogan and Adam Carrola. They do Podcasts because hosting The Man Show became the “peak” of their careers and their brand of white nationalist, mysogenistic “comedy” can’t even draw a crowd at The Chuckle Hut during Happy Hour.
Who ever posted the Beeb story, thanks so much.
It would figure that The Base group of Nazis is run out of Russia, with undertones of Russian Governmant assistance.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Probably hasn’t helped that a fake rich guy, narcissist extreme, asshole deluxe “won” last election and that their guy was robbed, robbed I tell ya, by that evil woman they all made up and if he had not been robbed he would have won the election hands down and the country wouldn’t be in this mess. Being stoned 23 hrs a day does sort of leave on with “issues.”
Jager
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
I did. What was so hard for her to understand was I didn’t give a shit about her money. When we were in Maine, we went over to Hinckley Yachts in SW Harbor, I was looking at a 15k used sailboat. I’m crawling around on the old boat and I noticed she’s dragged the broker over to a new 50 footer with a sticker of a mil and a half. I was chewing her ass about it in the car and all she could say was, “I know you want it.”
Zinsky
Late to the thread (again) but regarding Trump’s own childhood, it sounds like it was pretty fucked up. Mom was apparently a cold-hearted witch who could show no love and Dad was a greedy slumlord who had young Donald shaking down renters who were late with their rent, before he was 13. They sent him off to military school cause he was a jag-off (still is), so he had to make his way by being a blackhearted, soulless bully and remains that way at 73 years of age. His own kids have known no real love from the arsehole (he isn’t capable of it), so they are mini versions of him – seeking love from total strangers. You know they have to be painfully embarrassed that he was getting spanked by porn star Stormy Daniels in a hotel room when he was in his 60s, while his third wife is home with his final miscreant child!
Jay
@Jager:
you know you wanted it.
it still would have been sailing, you know, the experience of putting on warm clothes and raingear, then standing in a cold shower while tearing up $1000 bills,
just would have been much bigger bills and a roomier, multi spray headed shower, marble tiled perhaps.
jk
@Yutsano:
Biden is too old and while serving in the Senate was wrong on every major domestic and foreign policy issue (Iraq war, crime bill, etc.) Check his record dummy.
Jager
@Jay:
They would have her $1,000 dollar bills, though.
Gbbalto
@jk: Please don’t bother with this trolling shit any more. We have heard OVER AND OVER AGAIN your opinion of Biden. Do you actually think about anything else?
Dr. Ronnie James, D.O.
Wayne Barrett (RIP) of The Village Voice covered Trump in depth for decades and said in interview that Donald basically had no role in Ivanka’s life growing up, and this whole Daddy-daughter rapprochement is …strictly a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Daddio7
@JDM: Having the right name, Kennedy, Roosevelt, Biden, does wonders for a kids career.
Jay
@Jager:
$10,000 bills, right up to the break up.
Then you would have been saddled with a too big a boat, bills you couldn’t afford, and a white elephant worth a fraction of what it cost.
Bullets dodged.
Jager
@Jay:
Later I was perfectly happy with my 26k Marblehead to Halifax class winner. When we were going to move to SoCal, I put it on the market. It sold to a guy from Santa Barbra, it beat me out here by 4 weeks. I’ve sailed it with him a few times. My last bit of sailing has been as the mainsheet guy on a one-off Farr 44 and some chartering. Sailing is way too expensive in SoCal.
Jager
@Jay:
When I was living in FL, I ran into a guy at the old Chuck and Harold’s. He was drunk on his ass, he told us he was divorced from some heiress and was bitching that his settlement was only 20k a month. They definitely live in a different world.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@jk: this actually interests me
sin e you’re assuming an R Senate, what magic tricks do you think warren or klobuchar have to get around mcconnell?
and why do so many of you assume an R Senate?
i thought I was a pessimist….
Mnemosyne
@jk:
Bernie voted FOR both the crime bill and the AUMF, same as Biden. Look it up.
glory b
@trollhattan: He helped well over 100 African American kids get scholarships for college, mostly through his contacts at HBCUs..
He didn’t just do that, he’d send money, new underwear, socks, care packages,etc. to them. They all loved him.
He did lots for others too. My friends wouldn’t let me have standard adolescent complaints about my parents. “Shut up, your Mom and Dad are great.”
Shana
@Jager: That reminds me of the recent interview with Michelle Obama where she said that all these rich people aren’t all that smart. They have positions they haven’t really earned and the students she was talking to shouldn’t think they can’t compete.
J R in WV
@MJS:
Fred’s dad, The Donald’s grandfather, founded the family fortune with a group of brothels in the Yukon gold fields. So there you go!! At least 3 generations of pervy monsters. Fred senior, Fred the second and The Donald. 4 generations if you count The Donald’s kids.
A miracle if Donald’s grandkids are anything like normal.
Kathleen
@glory b: Blessings to you!
Uncle Cosmo
@jk: The fact that you “think”** Biden is stupid testifies to your own stupidity, which has been consistent since you first polluted this blog with one of your posts. Fuckwit.
** Note the quotes. I do not believe you have ever demonstrated here any ability to actually think.
Uncle Cosmo
@jk: Go fuck yourself, shithead.