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You are here: Home / Election Year / Thursday Morning Open Thread: The Atlanta Debate

Thursday Morning Open Thread: The Atlanta Debate

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For once, I actually didn’t watch the debate — just had a dental crown replaced, and the cement they use always makes me lightheaded, so I took a nap instead. But from what I’m seeing on political twitter, O’Donnell speaks the general consensus: Corey Booker had an excellent debate, as did the female candidates not named Tulsi. The all-female moderator panel gets credit for their performance, too.


Since I was collecting material entirely in retrospect, I’ve got enough sorted out to do separate posts on each of the most interesting / important candidates (Booker, Warren, Harris, Buttigieg, Biden). But given the pace of BREAKING NEWS this week, I’ll save those until later this afternoon / evening. Meanwhile, feel free to share your favorite tweets / links below…

Reader Interactions

103Comments

  4. 4.

    germy

    @NotMax:

    The more and more elaborate and flashy sets for each debate diminish all the candidates.

    Agreed.  And the talk of “performance” after it’s over.  It’s treated like the Super Bowl

  7. 7.

    germy

    @mrmoshpotato: 

    Are you ready for some debatebaaaaall?

    And all the talk about “performance” isn’t so much about issues raised, but candidates’ demeanor (energy, lack of energy, quickness, etc).

  8. 8.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Catherine Rampell
    ‏Verified account @crampell

    Last month, for the first time since records began, the number of refugees resettled in the US hit zero.

    Not a single refugee was resettled in the US last month

    Last month, for the first time since records began, the number of refugees resettled in the US hit zero.

    The nosedive is the result of a State Department freeze on admissions, according to a World Relief press release, resulting in hundreds of canceled flights and yet more uncertainty for the thousands of refugees hoping to resettle in the US. The department has issued an admissions ceiling of 18,000 for the financial year 2020—the lowest in almost 30 years, and well below the number of displaced people already in the pipeline to be resettled in the US. (Ceilings for 2018 and 2019 were 45,000 and 30,000, respectively.)

    There couldn’t be a worse time for it. The UN estimates there are around 26 million refugees worldwide, many of whom are victims of torture or women and girls fleeing persecution or violence. Others may be victims of the war in Syria, where the withdrawal of US troops has generated chaos and further devastation. Barely half a percent of the 26 million will be resettled at all, and even then only after a process of intensive screening from admitting states, noted Filippo Grandi, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, in a statement released yesterday. “At a time of record forced displacement in the world, lower admissions constrain UNHCR’s ability to deliver on its refugee protection mandate and diminish our humanitarian negotiating power at the global level,” he added.

    Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

  11. 11.

    Kay

    Biden just really worries me. I can’t shake the sense I’ve had from the beginning that he just isn’t tough enough to handle Trump. It’s not what he’s good at and it’s not what people like about him.
    He was never a fighter. That’s not ever been his thing. Ugh, and when his campaign makes him do it it’s just not at all authentic to him, so he ends up sounding sort of whiny and bitter.
    His chance was ’16. He’s the wrong candidate for this.

  12. 12.

    NotMax

    @germy

    It’s treated like the Super Bowl

    Don’t go giving them ideas; we’ll end up with a halftime show.

    “And now on our stage, a music and dance tribute to Saul Alinsky!”

    :)

  13. 13.

    Amir Khalid

    @NotMax:

    I agree: a bare stage with plain furniture — a podium for each candidate, a moderator’s desk — would be the most dignified setting for a serious debate between presidential candidates. But the TV networks running and airing the debates lost sight of the distinction between news and showbiz a long time ago.

  15. 15.

    Mustang Bobby

    Good morning.  Working part-time has its drawbacks.  One of the places where I work gave me a brand-new computer when I started in September.  In the middle of October it crashed and hasn’t been replaced, so for the past month I’ve been squatting in another part-time worker’s office.  Since I’m only here one day a week, it’s probably not a big priority for them, but I’d rather have something constructive to do; my Quaker work ethic is bugging me.

  17. 17.

    germy

    @NotMax: 

    “And now on our stage, a music and dance tribute to Saul Alinsky!”

    The networks? No, they’d do a tribute to William F. Buckley, Jr. or Arthur Laffer.

  18. 18.

    Kay

    @mrmoshpotato: 

    Yes. Exactly. The completely and utterly out of character and jarring vow to beat up Donald Trump.

    Go look at the Palin debate everyone talks about. He won that because he smiled through the whole thing. This is not who he is.

  19. 19.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Anne, you’re right on about material for a post for each of those candidates. I was thinking last night that all of the real candidates had good points to contribute.

  20. 20.

    Baud

    I still can’t get over the fact that 20% of the candidates on the stage for the Democratic debate hate the Democratic party, and that’s considered normal and unremarkable.

  21. 21.

    SFAW

    @NotMax: 

    “And now on our stage, a music and dance tribute to Saul Alinsky!”

    On the other hand, if they were able to find a way to resurrect Prince, that would be outstanding. [For a number of reasons.]

  23. 23.

    Kay

    @mrmoshpotato:

     

    I just really have one rule. Don’t go into this thinking you will change the essential nature of these people. You won’t. John Kerry was never going to “take the gloves off” because it’s not part of who John Kerry is and he’s been quite successful as himself, so understandably won’t turn into a completely different person.

  26. 26.

    NotMax

    @germy

    James Dean is being CGI resurrected (resurracted?) for an upcoming film set during the Viet Nam war. Networks could do the same with Cronkite, Huntley & Brinkley, Sevareid, Murrow, etc.

    //

  27. 27.

    Kay

    I would just like to thank Kamala Harris for going after Tulsi. The deference people show this malicious, grifter fraud is how the GOP ended up where they are now. Tell the truth.

  28. 28.

    Baud

    I may be biased, but I don’t see why Sanders had a good debate when all he did was go through his normal stump speech.

  29. 29.

    SFAW

    @Kay:

    The deference people show this malicious, grifter fraud is how the GOP ended up where they are now.

    One thing I’ve seen, more than once, is how Gabbard is just the same as Bernie (policy-wise), and more liberal than Warren, etc. Not from anyone whose opinion I respect, but as they say “it’s out there.”

     

    “Gaslighting: it’s not just for RWMF’s to pull”

  32. 32.

    Kay

    I’ve about had it with Mayor Pete for a while. Okay, two things. Mayor Pete’s “bold” policy plans are generic boilerplate Democrat for the last 20 years, so pretending he invented them is offensive to the people who did all that work while he was in high school. In addition- not winning a seat in the House or Senate is not actually a valid reason to attack those who have. Not winning is not a resume builder.

  33. 33.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Definitely one of the highlights for me too. Buttigieg also treated Gabbard with the contempt she deserves, but no one laid the truth about her out for all to see like Harris did.

     

    So far, these six have qualified for the December debate:

    • Biden
    • Warren
    • Sanders
    • Buttigieg
    • Klobuchar
    • Harris

     

    From what I’ve read, there’s a pretty good chance all the folks in last night’s debate will qualify though.

  36. 36.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

     

    Showing deference to malicious grifters is literally how the GOP ended up where they are now. You’re allowed to have standards. Must. A big tent is great but you’re allowed to have a tent.

  37. 37.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud: The amount of work that has been happening in the House of Reps and their committees since the last election, (and during the previous time that Pelosi was Speaker) has absolutely amazed me. Adam Schiff is working and achieving way beyond his pay grade.  Democrats are in Washington to work. Republicans are in Washington to  say government is awful. If they don’t want to take part they should just resign and go home.

  38. 38.

    Kay

    @Baud:

     

    I’ll accept it from a governor but don’t not win a statewide race and then pretend that’s some kind of advantage. It’s transparently bullshit. For me, what I consider his misrepresentations are reaching a tipping point, starting with the justification for his campaign, which is a partly invented characterization of South Bend as some gritty rust belt factory town. That’s just not true. South Bend has a huge anchor industry and its the elite college industry. Gary, Indiana can’t create those jobs. It’s like pretending Ann Arbor doesn’t have the U of M and they’re making seat belt harnesses or something.

  39. 39.

    JPL

    @Kay: I didn’t watch but will look for the clip.   I did she the clip where she  went after trump’s Korean policy, or should I say photo-op.

    I wish Joe would drop out, and then Kamala and Amy might get more recognition.

  43. 43.

    Kay

    @JPL:

     

    He was really good with Palin because he likes people and he’s good with them. That’s how he operates in the world. He gets along with people. Individuals. One at a time.  It’s worked wonderfully for him, too. He’s just not going to turn into some brawling knife-wielder at 77. Impossible. You may as well ask him to become a turtle.

  44. 44.

    Baud

    @Kay:

     

     

    I don’t know if it’s just me or if this is a real change, but Pete’s talking style seems to have morphed from conversation to presentation.

    Except when he went after Tulsi last night. That was good.

  45. 45.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: this is appalling. While we have almost the exact same conversations daily about candidates (UGH) the destruction of our society and our formerly shared values looks like it’s accelerating.

  46. 46.

    SFAW

    @Bobby Thomson:

    even Warren don’t strike me as fans.

    I don’t think she’s anti-Washington. She’s anti-Rethug-Washington, because of what they do, but I think she believes in the inherent value and ability of Washington to make things better for people who don’t have millions/billions to smooth their own way.

  48. 48.

    Ken

    @NotMax: The sets remind me of the networks on election night.

     

    “Jill, we’re going to cut away from the Hologram Room and back to Election Command Central, where Jack Schitt will activate the Wall of Spinning Monitors and show us the Alabama results!”

  51. 51.

    TS (the original)

    @Kay: I cannot believe that the campaign to be the next president of America will be held between two elderly men – any of whom should be spending their twilight years with their grandchildren – pretending that they have a clue about what is happening in our world & what they would do about it.

  52. 52.

    Betty Cracker

    @JPL: I wish Biden would get out of the race too, but if the massive self-owns deployed to date weren’t enough to send him home, I don’t suppose anything will until the actual voting starts. Not enough people paying attention yet, I guess.

  53. 53.

    Bobby Thomson

     

     

    @Kay: Because candidates are so risk-averse and prefer to let others implode (which is how the Republicans wound up with Trump), this won’t happen, but Buttigeig is ripe for a Bentsen-Quayle moment.  “Running against Washington is very popular.  Trump did it and still does it every day.  And if I were you and didn’t have a record to run on I suppose that might be my strategy.  But it’s insulting to people like Ted Kennedy and Elijah Cummings and Maxine Waters to suggest they just sat on their hands for years.  You should stop.”

  55. 55.

    White & Gold Purgatorian

    I’d add Amy Klobuchar to the list of important and interesting candidates. She has consistently gone after the real enemy, Trump, and she did it again last night with “If you think a woman can’t beat Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi does it every day.” That is a twofer, knocking the “we better nominate a man this time if we want to win” meme and Trump at the same time. Amy has been talking about the higher hurdles women face and that’s another of those uncomfortable discussions our society needs to have as we aspire to that equality and opportunity for all thing.

  56. 56.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Betty Cracker: fact is, until significant inroads are made into Biden’s support, he can afford to come in second or third in both Iowa and New Hampshire and still be considered a prohibitive favorite.  And people have known for months he’s too old for this.

  59. 59.

    Leto

    I’m playing catchup with last night’s debate. Avalune and I watched until, I think, the first commercial break? I commented some last night about it, but honestly I’m a bit tired of them at this point. They need to raise the threshold to double digits and move along. This incremental approach, combined with continuing to have grifting/Republican candidates on state, is exhausting and non-productive. Anyways, let me go read comments now because I’m sure I’m simply restating points already made. To the coffee machine!

  60. 60.

    TS (the original)

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yeh – I said – and to follow – they want to ensure that DC doesn’t work which seems an insane reason to want to be elected to congress.

     

    It truly was a delight to see the young democrats that came in last election full of ideas, plans and hopes. So I don’t agree with all of them, much is impossible to achieve in the short term, but they came & they are staying and they are learning.

     

    Elise Stefanik, on the other hand,  has been used by her colleagues and has been taught to lie and deceive by those who have been her mentors.

  62. 62.

    Betty Cracker

    @Bobby Thomson: You’re right. I think there’s a decent chance Biden will be the nominee. He’s an awful candidate, but I believe he would probably beat Trump — any of the top-tier candidates would, IMO. But if it’s Biden, that sets us up for a smarter, younger GOP demagogue in 2024.

     

    Okay, I’m depressing myself at 8 AM. I’ll stop now. ;-)

  63. 63.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @SFAW: I think the original comment was about hating the Democratic party, not hating Washington. On that front implying that Warren hates it is ridiculous IMO. She doesn’t re-register and run as an independent every time a Presidential election cycle ends. She’s a permanent member of the party. There may be things about it she’d like to change or see changed but she’s not a Bernie.

  70. 70.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @TS (the original):

     

    It truly was a delight to see the young democrats that came in last election full of ideas, plans and hopes. So I don’t agree with all of them, much is impossible to achieve in the short term, but they came & they are staying and they are learning.

    Agreed on all points.

  72. 72.

    SFAW

    @Bobby Thomson:

    She’s not pro-Democratic party.

    A) There’s a difference between “hating” and “not pro.”

    B) On what facts/evidence do you base either claim? Because neither is apparent to me.

  74. 74.

    Kay

    @satby:

     

    Right but they basically import a huge group of well-off young people every year, and that’s not even the wildly loyal wealthy Chicago alums or the huge football franchise. It throws off value. Those ordinary 1940’s and 1950’s houses in proximity to the university are worth 4 or 5 or 6 times what a comparable property would be here, and that’s South Bend tax revenue. There’s a whole commercial sector that serves the students, their parents, alums, sports revenue, etc. I’m happy for him that he’s got an economic driver but it’s just not comparable to a city without one like that. Take away Cornell and Ithaca is just a small, ordinary city.

     

    If it were even the county it would be a more accurate representation, because he also insists it’s somehow rural. They aren’t planting corn in South Bend. It’s kind of a unique place. They aren’t making more big, elite private universities with national football teams. Gary can’t “attract” one.

  75. 75.

    Gin & Tonic

    Six years ago what became known as the Maidan movement (and later the Revolution of Dignity) began in Kyiv. If you had told me then that it would overthrow a President, that the US would later elect Donald Trump, and that the continued involvement of the US in Ukraine – and many of that revolution’s villains in US politics – would lead to the almost certain impeachment of Trump, I would have been calling for your involuntary confinement. For your own safety, of course.

  79. 79.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    I despair of things ever changing. NPR just had Stephen Grove on Morning Edition, and he spent roughly 8 minutes just lying to Rachel Martin’s face with very minimal pushback. No Democrat was interviewed to provide a countervailing narrative or correct the spin. After the clusterfuck of the W administration and now the even greater clusterfuck of Drumpf, if Washington is still wired for Republicans I just don’t see how it’s ever going to change. If those 11 years didn’t open people’s eyes and change it, it seems immutable.

  80. 80.

    TS (the original)

    What is with CBS News – whoever is commenting now is talking about the big positive for trump in yesterday’s hearing. They did the same yesterday – putting forward the GOP view. Now saying that Sundland didn’t prove the quid pro quo yesterday.

     

    With this media trump will never be impeached.

  82. 82.

    Ramalama

    Anyone know where I can view the debates from last night in full? My google-fu keeps showing last month’s debate or highlights from last night. I’m a little wiped out from following Sondland’s testimony yesterday, whew doggie, in the Impeachment hearing (while working), so …couldn’t even last night.

  83. 83.

    Soprano2

    @Kay:

    Biden just really worries me. I can’t shake the sense I’ve had from the beginning that he just isn’t tough enough to handle Trump. It’s not what he’s good at and it’s not what people like about him.

    Boy, I so agree with you about this!  He’s not the right candidate for this moment.  He’s still stuck in 1980’s Washington, and that’s a sure recipe for disaster in 2020.  We need someone who’s clear-eyed about what and who Trump and the Republicans are.

  84. 84.

    Kay

    @satby: 

    I think he’s really talented but he’s papering over a very thin resume (which is fine) but you have to be careful when you do that because it can shade into “misleading”. They’re all ambitious and wildly competitive people. The difference is they have more experience so perhaps don’t have to work so hard on a narrative.
    The truth is he wouldn’t win statewide in Indiana. He ran where he could win.

  85. 85.

    Soprano2

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: Ugh, I heard that interview too.  He was bald-faced lying to her about what Sondland testified to, and she only pushed back a little bit.  I kept waiting for them to play the clip that showed he was wrong, but they never did.  I guess they want to make sure Republicans keep coming on their shows, so they fluff them when they’re on.  It’s pretty disgusting.

  86. 86.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

     

    I know this – but even the front page of the nyt seems to be saying there is some there there. Wapo is all over it – trump is caught in his web of lies. These pundits on cbc are now attacking Adam Schiff for “putting on a performance”. Do they shut their eyes and ears when Nunes & Co are talking?

  87. 87.

    marv

    @Baud: Know what you mean about Buttigieg’s voice. This is a minor life theory of mine – I first noticed it with professional baseball players becoming radio or tv announcers, and succeeding at it. The first year or so they sounded to me like retired ballplayers talking to other human beings about baseball. Then they started sounding like announcers.

  88. 88.

    Marcopolo

    @Bobby Thomson: C’mon man.  Asserts facts not in evidence.  It’s fine to critique candidates you don’t like on the merits, but there’s no merit to this statement.

     

    As I said at the end of last night’s debate thread I thought a lot of the candidates had good moments but did not believe anyone “won” the debate outright.  I was happy with the moderators but think the field needs to shrink by another 3-4 candidates asap.

     

    Still don’t get why Booker has never really gotten any traction.

  89. 89.

    tobie

    @Baud: I’m not into bashing the coasts in favor of the heartland either. Buttigieg strikes me as the perfect DLC candidate from the 1990s pretending what he’s selling is brand new. And, while I despise Tulsi, she was right that what he had to say about using the military to attack the cartels in Mexico was unacceptable. Even if Mexico welcomes it, it’s wrong. This is just a repeat of the 1980s war on drugs strategy in Colombia that didn’t work out well for us or the Colombians.

  90. 90.

    tobie

    @SFAW: I’m sure you’re right that Warren believes in the inherent value of institutions but that didn’t come out loud and clear last night. Warren was asked something about policy and took the occasion to hammer home that the govt is corrupt and has been so for decades. This felt like an attack on both parties and DC itself. Given the events of the day with the impeachment hearings, it also seemed a bit tone deaf to me. The biggest problem is not corruption, it’s the rule of law and whether we’ll have a democracy or an autocracy in which the whims of the ruler become the law.

  91. 91.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kay: I’ll start by noting that I have never been to Notre Dame or South Bend.  That fact that a small city has a large university in it does not exempt it from the problems that small cities in the industrial Midwest are having.  It probably does mitigate them.  Cities, however, do not fall into two categories, Gary and the ones that have no problems.

  92. 92.

    Chris Johnson

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:

    I think the original comment was about hating the Democratic party, not hating Washington. On that front implying that Warren hates it is ridiculous IMO. She doesn’t re-register and run as an independent every time a Presidential election cycle ends. She’s a permanent member of the party. There may be things about it she’d like to change or see changed but she’s not a Bernie.

    This. Also, there’s another point. Warren has baited the trollskis and super-hard-lefties by saying she is a capitalist. I’m angry enough at our economics that this is a bit of a turn-off, but knowing her consumer-protection work I think I know what she means.

    What I’d like to see Warren say is ‘I love capitalism and this ain’t it.‘ Which would be absolutely true: what people call late stage capitalism is actually simple oligarchy, what people call free markets is really full-on rent extraction, and it all shames the name of ‘capitalism’, perhaps irredeemably.

    But it doesn’t have to be that way. I believe Warren like few others when she says things that aren’t quite what I’d expect, and I could see her making a persuasive case that our capitalism has taken a wrong turn and must be fixed before it destroys itself. I’d find that a plausible claim, and it’s in character for her to say it.

    Same with the Democratic Party. If it’s so great, why didn’t we clobber Trump and the Russians? Why, in New Hampshire, was MoveOn canvassing entire towns that the actual Democratic Party (in game theory mode) absolutely refused to bother with? They made a strategic choice to over-canvass the closest thing to urban centers NH has, and blew off anything that looked rural. It’s not good enough. We’re not making that mistake twice.

  93. 93.

    Chris Johnson

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:

    I despair of things ever changing. NPR just had Stephen Grove on Morning Edition, and he spent roughly 8 minutes just lying to Rachel Martin’s face with very minimal pushback. No Democrat was interviewed to provide a countervailing narrative or correct the spin. After the clusterfuck of the W administration and now the even greater clusterfuck of Drumpf, if Washington is still wired for Republicans I just don’t see how it’s ever going to change.

    I’ll tell you how: with extensive governance and regulation.

    What you’re seeing is a community of the ultra-wealthy, for the ultra-wealthy, siding with those who will feed them no matter what the cost to the country.

    Whether it’s the millionaires (when did that become NOT extreme enough, that now we must bitch about billionaires? When did a million become the middle class that must be protected, and a billion, held BY A PERSON, become a matter of personal right and expression?) or the media people who serve them (also wealthy, but trapped in a cul-de-sac of capitalism with the Internet turning them to buggy whip makers) these ‘Washington’ people are the problem and they are not going to straighten out of their own volition, any more than bank robbers will just stop robbing banks in the absence of consequences.

    Governance and regulation, the applying of rules and laws, is the missing thing here. If it were impossible to re-establish that after lapses, we wouldn’t even be here… hell, civilization wouldn’t be here. We are not in unique circumstances. We’re in pre-revolution circumstances and in a position to choose whether we want it nice or nasty.

  97. 97.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Cities, however, do not fall into two categories, Gary and the ones that have no problems.

    Thanks, Omnes, for the lecture on the glaringly obvious. Not that I said that at all, but good point.

    He specifically points to South Bend as a representative example of a small rust belt city. It’s not. Talking about South Bend and not including Notre Dame as the thing that makes South Bend unique is, IMO, a deliberate omission intended to indicate he’s the most electable in that region of the country.

    I don’t mind it, it’s a tactic, but it isn’t true and IMO he’s developing a bit of a pattern for too-clever narrative building that is not all that accurate. When you really look at it.

  99. 99.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kay: It may not be completely typical but it is a rust belt city.  It’s not Evanston or Madison.  And, yes, the presence of a university can help keep a city afloat.  Stevens Point, WI, is a more vibrant small city than Wisconsin Rapids even though they both lost their paper mills.  Stevens Point has the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point; it makes a difference.  OTOH, the closing of the paper mills still gutted both communities.

     

    You say you don’t mind it as a tactic, but you have returned to it more than once.  I don’t see it as any different than any politician emphasizing one aspect of their their experience and downplaying others.  They are presenting their best case.  YMMV and clearly does.

  100. 100.

    BroD

    I’m not a debate watcher: I just don’t find them helpful in assessing candidates or making decisions.  I’m more interested in coalitions than posturing and personalities.

  101. 101.

    Litany

    Pretty quiet night overall. No one really came away from the thing looking any worse, with the exception of Tulsi. Surprised no one tried to get a swipe in at Buttegeig.

    I do think it says volumes about MSNBC that we get questions like “would you use taxpayer money to tear down the wall” but not “what’s your opinion on the events in Bolivia.”

  102. 102.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Particularly odd omission because his father is or was a professor at that university, so that was his actual lived experience. I just hope he doesn’t start saying “heartland”. Gag.

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