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You are here: Home / Politics / Impeachment Inquiry / Thursday Impeachment Hearings – Fiona Hill and David Holmes

Thursday Impeachment Hearings – Fiona Hill and David Holmes

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The beat goes on. I’m grateful to C Span for putting their coverage on YouTube, so it’s easy to embed. I never could figure it out otherwise.

Fiona Hill is a Russia expert who was at Brookings before she went to Trump’s NSC. David Holmes is the foreign service political officer who overheard the famous July 26 phonecall between Trump and Gordon Sondland. He’s been described as an aide, but the political officer at an embassy is a lot more than that, in charge of learning about political goings-on inside the country and reporting to the Ambassador.

It’s raining here again today, so I have an excuse not to take the kitties out for their morning walk, but I may give it a try when the Republican questioning starts. And I think I’ll make biscuits and creamed chicken for lunch – comfort food.

Reader Interactions

248Comments

  1. 1.

    PST

    It is time to revive the term “party line.” This morning, Putin said that it is now recognized that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that interfered in the 2016 election. When Republicans like Nunes repeat this absurdity, they are useful idiots or worse, echoing the Moscow party line.

  2. 2.

    Betty Cracker

    I was writing a longish post to serve as an open thread for the hearings when this one published, so rather than let my efforts languish in the back-end trash can, I’ll publish it here as a comment instead:

     

    Several media outlets obtained Hill’s opening statement, and dog bless her, it looks like Hill is prepared to crack the Crackpot Dome scandal wide open by laying bare the kookery. An excerpt (PDF, via PBS):

    Based on questions and statements I have heard, some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country—and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.

    The unfortunate truth is that Russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016. This is the public conclusion of our intelligence agencies, confirmed in bipartisan Congressional reports. It is beyond dispute, even if some of the underlying details must remain classified.

    The impact of the successful 2016 Russian campaign remains evident today. Our nation is being torn apart. Truth is questioned. Our highly professional and expert career foreign service is being undermined. U.S. support for Ukraine—which continues to face armed Russian aggression—has been politicized. The Russian government’s goal is to weaken our country—to diminish America’s global role and to neutralize a perceived U.S. threat to Russian interests. President Putin and the Russian security services aim to counter U.S. foreign policy objectives in Europe, including in Ukraine, where Moscow wishes to reassert political and economic dominance.

    I say this not as an alarmist, but as a realist. I do not think long-term conflict with Russia is either desirable or inevitable. I continue to believe that we need to seek ways of stabilizing our relationship with Moscow even as we counter their efforts to harm us. Right now, Russia’s security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. We are running out of time to stop them. In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.

    She’s talking to YOU, Mr. Nunes.

     

    Seriously, though: the crackpot theory that Ukraine/Soros/DNC framed Russia/Putin/Trump has flown largely under the radar during this impeachment inquiry. Nunes’ barking mad references to it in the committee are heard by the Q loons and Fox-addled cultists. But most people who don’t follow this shit obsessively like we do have no idea.

     

    Here’s hoping Ms. Hill’s testimony brings this crackpottery to the fore in the media coverage. People deserve to know that not only is their president (and his enablers in the House and Senate) a crude conman, he’s a demented conspiracy nut who’s subverting U.S. foreign policy for personal gain on the strength of crazy uncle email forwards. That’s important.

  3. 3.

    Mr. Mack

    Reposted: This may be painfully obvious to most of you…but I don’t understand the assertion that Burisma “funneled” money to Hunter Biden’s domestic bank account. Is that just another way of saying he was paid? We get money funneled to our account from Vanderbilt, every two weeks in fact. Both of my kids are paid electronically as well. It’s a slimy way of insinuating that the funds are somehow illegitimate, no?

  5. 5.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Betty Cracker: Thanks for the link to Hill’s statement and the excerpts. I was seeing excerpts on Twitter, but no links.

     

    @Mr. Mack: I have not been paying as much attention as perhaps I should to Republican nonsense. They can spout it faster than anyone can debunk it. Sounds like you’ve got that right.

  10. 10.

    mistermix loves your ass

    I predict that Nunes will repeat the Ukranium 1 theory no matter what Hill said in her opening statement.

  12. 12.

    jonas

    @PST:When Republicans like Nunes repeat this absurdity, they are useful idiots or worse, echoing the Moscow party line.

    You’d think a party that spent half a century telling us how the Left in America were witting pawns of Soviet propaganda all during the Cold War would be more self-aware, but here we are.

  13. 13.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Betty Cracker:

     

    @Cheryl Rofer:

     

    She’s going to bring the heat. I don’t know her particularly well, but my impression is she’s no nonsense and isn’t going to tolerate shenanigans.

     

    There’s another Dr. Fiona Hill with a PhD in political science. I know this one better than the one testifying today, because this other Fiona Hill – I don’t honestly know which is older or finished their doctorates first – did her PhD at UF. She was a couple of years ahead of me. This other Fiona Hill is Scottish and an Americanist, but I’m sure she’s getting a ton of email and voicemail meant for the Fiona Hill that is testifying today.

  14. 14.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Hard to believe Sondland’s testimony was only yesterday.

     

    Schiff references discredited theory that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that intervened in the 2016 election.

  16. 16.

    Mary G

    Republicans have newer and bigger signs! With more color! NO NO NO NO NO

    So cheesy.

     

    ETA: These Infrastructure Weeks just get longer and longer. I am so tired and glad there are only two witnesses today.

  19. 19.

    Yarrow

    Does anyone know if there will be more public hearings after today? Maybe not next week because of Thanksgiving but perhaps after that? My local news did a piece that made it sound like this was it and after this they decide about Articles of Impeachment. I know there’s at least one more person who has testified behind closed doors and it seems that the pattern is closed door session followed by open hearing. Anyone know?

  20. 20.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Patricia Kayden: It’s a money laundry and influence peddling scheme. The FBI has their teeth into it now and the Public Corruption Division is going to crosswalk with the National Security Division and this is going to get really ugly for a lot of people. It’ll dry up funding from major donors and bundlers for GOP candidates going into the 2020 cycle, because donors and bundlers aren’t going to be able to know who is and is not being investigated – both candidates and funders. And all of it thanks to the fact that Rudy finally went so far off the reservation that SDNY had no choice but to finally investigate him and his associates.

  21. 21.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jonas: Makes you wonder when the penetration and subversion of the conservative movement and the GOP actually began, doesn’t it?

  22. 22.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    I was watching body language. There was no cross-aisle collegiality as they gathered.

     

    The body of Congress is broken.

     

    We need to reinstate the earmark so that each member can prioritize what they dislike again by trading off party desires for getting things for their districts – as long as there is no buy-in, they’re going to be at war.

  25. 25.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman:  It’s always been a money laundering scheme, among other things (human trafficking). There’s plenty to investigate and it’s going to go up the chain until it’s clear that the RNC was in on it. Wonder if, Reince Priebus is feeling nervous yet.

  26. 26.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: It hasn’t been announced. I would expect that the career senior OMB official, Mark Sandy, will be called. They haven’t finalized his transcript for release yet. I think that’s due out today or tomorrow. Next week will be Thanksgiving break, so the earliest he’d testify is a week from next Tuesday. Given the news that broke late last night about Parnas and Nunes, I expect there will be an attempt by Parnas’s attorney to negotiate a deposition and public testimony before HPSCI. Whether Schiff decides this is necessary is another story. Remember, Parnas really works for Firtash. Firtash works for Putin. Putin’s goal is chaos within the US. Having Parnas turn on Giuliani, the President, Nunes, etc and do so publicly just creates more chaos for him to exploit.

  29. 29.

    p.a.

    Thank dog Putin was KGB head when the Soviet Union was too far gone to save; he sees the key to ‘covertly’ attack  America: empower the ignorant- white racists*.  The SU spent decades trying unsuccessfully to coopt loyal minority Anericans and unionists and got diddly for the effort.

     

    *And surreptitiously (kinda) funnel money to our genius internet site billionaires.

  31. 31.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: This was always the unintended consequence of the Citizens United decision. That what Kennedy decided was okay would lead to turning politics into organized crime, and, as is the case with Giuliani, disorganized crime. And it was always going to end up this way. Someone would abuse the almost free for all so badly and so publicly and so stupidly that investigators and prosecutors couldn’t ignore it. And once that investigation and/or prosecution started, the thread would be pulled on until the whole ball of yarn unwound.

  32. 32.

    Lapassionara

    @Adam L Silverman: I saw The Manchurian Candidate when it first came out. The premise seemed logical to me at the time, which was early sixties. So, at least then, if not sooner.

     

    OT, but today is the birthday of one of our jackals. I’m not going to mention the name, but happy birthday, and a donation to Act Blue is being made in his/her honor.

  33. 33.

    Adam L Silverman

    For the love of someone’s Deity or Deities, get Congressman Nunes a copy of hooked on phonics. His ability to read is terrible.

  34. 34.

    Cheryl Rofer

    This is definitely a current Republican talking point. I got a cartoon illustrating it from a Trumpie friend on Facebook last night.

  36. 36.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman:  That would be my guess. Mark Sandy at least will be called for a public hearing and not until after Thanksgiving. Are there others?

     

    It’s so easy to focus on the small subsection of things like this Ukraine piece and not see the larger situation.

  41. 41.

    Yarrow

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:  You are not incorrect that Congress is broken. However, Republicans are angry because they’re going to be implicated in this whole mess. A significant percentage of them are compromised by Russia and they’re in a difficult spot. They’re angry that they’re having to participate in something that is going to jeopardize themselves.

  43. 43.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Cheryl Rofer: Me too. Schiff is impressive, both in the quality of his statements and in his unflappable demeanor. I would have a hard time not doing the demented Devin Nunes a damage with him right at my elbow.

  44. 44.

    Adam L Silverman

    Nunes has decided he’s going to punch at Hill for her opening statement. He’s going to regret this. She’s going to hurt him when she gets the mic.

  46. 46.

    TS (the original)

    Nunes is again putting the actions of the republicans onto those in the democratic party. He speaks of broken government and lost dreams and a kangaroo court (just to mention kangaroos have more intelligence than Nunes.)

     

    Schiff sits proud and tall during this nonsense.

  48. 48.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: The judge handling the McGahn subpoena/privilege case is supposed to rule on Monday. While I expect that will be appealed, I know they want McGahn in. I’m sure they also want Bolton, Mulvaney, Pompeo, and several others. I’d expect they’d like Giuliani too. However, I have no idea what they will or won’t wait on.

  50. 50.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman:

    This was always the unintended consequence of the Citizens United decision. That what Kennedy decided was okay would lead to turning politics into organized crime,

    I take issue with your use of “unintended.”

  52. 52.

    Kay (not the front-pager)

    @Betty Cracker: Unfortunately Barr is about to try to resurrect this old, tired, disproven Russian propaganda as “official” fact, with the help of Lindsey Graham.

     

    I’m stuck at the doctor, doing a lactose tolerance breath test that I thought would be in-and-out, but takes 4 hours. I’m so glad to have access this streaming service. I’m especially looking forward to hearing from the guy who strikes me as Dan Akroyd from Guys Like Us.

  59. 59.

    Yarrow

    It’s exhausting that they scheduled these hearings three days in a row. Wonder why they didn’t have at least one day break.

  60. 60.

    TS (the original)

    And Mr Holmes threw out the door the legitimacy of Sundland  having Ukraine as part of his role.

  65. 65.

    Yarrow

    @Gin & Tonic:  You are not imagining things. It was titled “Georgia, reinsurance and risk adjustment” and it had 2 comments when I saw it on the front page. It’s gone now.

  66. 66.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: They were trying to get them in as quickly as possible after releasing the transcript to minimize adjustment of testimony from public to private, head off Republican bitching about process and all being done behind closed doors, and get them in before the Thanksgiving recess so they didn’t lose momentum.

  68. 68.

    Yarrow

    For anyone in the UK, impeachment hearings are apparently being broadcast on the BBC Parliament channel.

  71. 71.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman:  Yes, but they could have done M, T, Th or M, W, Th this week instead of T,W,Th, which is just exhausting. I’m tired and I’m only watching when I can fit it in with other stuff. I can’t imagine how it must be to be Schiff.

  72. 72.

    Betty Cracker

    Here’s Trump’s most pathetic gaslight to date, IMO (pre-rebutting Holmes’ testimony):

    I have been watching people making phone calls my entire life. My hearing is, and has been, great. Never have I been watching a person making a call, which was not on speakerphone, and been able to hear or understand a conversation. I’ve even tried, but to no avail. Try it live!

    That’s right, the POTUS is saying it’s not humanly possible to overhear a conversation if you’re sitting next to someone who’s talking to a loudmouth on a phone, something at odds with the lived experience of almost every human being in the developed world.

  77. 77.

    Yarrow

    OMG, “We continued to work on ways to frame the Ukraine situation in ways that would appeal to the President.” Sounds like they’re trying to figure out how to get a child to eat vegetables.

  79. 79.

    wvng

    In it’s own way, Holmes’ opening statement is as damaging to republican misdirection as Sondland’s was.  Just really impressive, and clearly angry as how Trump’s behavior was harming Ukraine and US interests.

  84. 84.

    Leto

    @Yarrow: The fact that we have to somehow persuade the President  to honor our obligations (stand with our allies) is just another day that ends in -y.

  86. 86.

    Marcopolo

    So there was an international meeting in Warsaw (at the time of the AL Hurricane kerfuffle). Trump used the hurricane as an excuse not to attend. But listening to Holmes it sounds like if Trump has gone he would have been expected to meet with Zelinskyy who was in Warsaw for the meeting. Is it possible Trump used the hurricane as an excuse because he didn’t want to have to meet with Z? It’s deep in the weeds and I’m probably way overthinking it but with everything we’ve learned who knows?

  88. 88.

    jonas

    Nunes, Jordan, and the other GOP dimbulbs defending Trump are smugly confident that removing Trump will never make it past the Senate — and they’re probably right. But what if they’re wrong? They’ve spend all their allotted time during these hearings wearing tinfoil hats and rambling about conspiracy theories someone read off a 4chan thread started by a Russian troll farm and which nobody save for idiots who watch Hannity believe for a minute. This isn’t giving any GOP senators who may be on the fence a lot to credibly stand on when time comes to vet this in the Senate.

    On the other hand, evidently nothing matters any more so, my bet is they just go “yeah, wev” and vote to acquit. As Bill Kristol tweeted this morning, it’s not so much that they think Trump is actually innocent; it’s that they don’t really care that he’s guilty. Judges, etc.

  92. 92.

    Spanky

    @Yarrow:

    This was always the unintended consequence of the Citizens United decision. That what Kennedy decided was okay would lead to turning politics into organized crime,

    I take issue with your use of “unintended.”

     

    Seconded. it was clear before the ink was dry how CU would play out.

  95. 95.

    Marcopolo

    Holmes is great! Keeping being mightily impressed by our dedicated civil servants.

    And now for the main show.

  97. 97.

    Gin & Tonic

    Thing is, it’s not any particular secret, and certainly wasn’t in 2016, that Poroshenko wanted HRC to win. Why? A) like most of us, he expected that she would, and it’s always best to have backed a winner. But B) he knew that Trump was Putin’s bitch, and knew *very clearly* who and what Paul Manafort was, and what his employment as campaign chairman meant. The Republican convention proved that to everyone.

  98. 98.

    LAO

    I’m struck by how these witnesses have been an absolute demonstration of how vital immigration is to our nation.

  101. 101.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Schiff is so polite. “The House Republican report is an outlier [in not seeing any Russian interference in the 2016 election]”.

     

    “Outlier” is such a nice way to say “batshit crazypants lying Russian propaganda conspiracy theory”

  104. 104.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Schiff is starting out with questioning by emphasizing and expanding on Hill’s statements that the Republicans are serving the Russian cause. Neither says those words, of course, but this would be devastating to the Republicans on the committee if they possessed any human decency.

  105. 105.

    Marcopolo

    @Yarrow: I’m policy wonk swooning a little bit.  Her accent doesn’t hurt either.

     

    In the twitterverse folks are suggesting who might play Holmes in a movie version of this.  Current nominees include Michael Fassbinder, Joel Kinnaman, and Alexander Skarsgard.

  108. 108.

    Gin & Tonic

    Our Nation offers the world a vision of inalienable political, religious, and economic rights. This vision has always been shared among peoples subjugated by Soviet imperialism; and so has resistance, ever the catalyst of liberty. Today, a struggle that began in Ukraine 70 years ago is taking place throughout the Soviet empire. In the last year alone, people have risen up to demand basic human rights in Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Moldavia, and among the Crimean Tatars. And across the globe, in Afghanistan, Angola, Cambodia, and Nicaragua, courageous freedom fighters battle tyranny. All captive nations deserve and require our special support. For those seeking to enjoy humanity’s birthright of liberty, independence, and justice, we serve as guardians of their dream.

    Ronald Reagan, July 17. 1987

    How far has the GOP fallen.

  109. 109.

    germy

    @Gin & Tonic: For those seeking to enjoy humanity’s birthright of liberty, independence, and justice, we serve as guardians of their dream.

    Of course he was bullshitting.

  112. 112.

    Another Scott

    Rassin’ Frassin’ grr.

     

    I was listening intently to the start of Hill’s testimony this morning as I distractedly motored past a speed camera at about 6 MPH over the limit.  Dunno if it caught me or not.  :-(

     

    Holmes statement was clear and unambiguous.  I expect Hill’s testimony to be the same.  It’s important.  But it’s distracting!!!1

     

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  113. 113.

    SFAW

    @Marcopolo:

    In the twitterverse folks are suggesting who might play Holmes in a movie version of this.  Current nominees include Michael Fassbinder, Joel Kinnaman, and Alexander Skarsgard.

     

    Danny DeVito? And Rhea Perlman as Fiona Hill?

     

    Box office gold.

  114. 114.

    Mary G

    @LAO: We are so lucky to have had some of the best brains like Dr. Hill’s and LTC Vindman’s from countries that don’t give them the opportunity they deserve, and it’s just enraging that Twitler and the evil Miller and Nunes demonize them and are cutting off more people like them from coming here.

  121. 121.

    Leto

    @LAO: @Mary G: @Betty Cracker: One of the main reasons I’m alive today is that my general surgeon immigrated from the UK to here to practice medicine. I honestly don’t know if I’d be alive if I hadn’t been in his  tremendously capable hands. Most of the med students who later came and poked/prodded me were immigrants/exchange students. I always made sure to remember where they were from, ask more about what led them here, and what their plans were for the future (many were trying to stay here if they could).

     

    I was a big proponent before, but (as is the case with many things) it’s highly personal for me now.

  122. 122.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Dammit, Fiona Hill said the words “executive privilege” and danced around one particular narrow question.

    But you know the nut-o-sphere is going to run with that and claim Hill just said “stop the investigation, it’s all covered by executive privilege”.

    We’re going to hear 10 million tweets saying, “Fiona Hill: Executive privilege”

  123. 123.

    Patricia Kayden

    These are two credible, well spoken, thorough witnesses. Thank goodness for competent, honest civil servants. Republicans are screwed.

  124. 124.

    NotMax

    Time to end the dancing around the fact that Giuliani is not and was not an employee or appointee of the government and for the committee to put on the record in clear and indisputable terms both that status as well as that instructing government employees to take instruction (or admonishment) from him as to how and by what method to conduct their jobs is, at the least, bizarre.

  125. 125.

    The Dangerman

    Given Nunes is only performing for an audience of one (the President), he must be pissing his pants at the prospect of cross examining Dr. Hill; she doesn’t strike me as someone that will take his bullshit without an appropriate response. Suspect he passes it off to the attorney quickly.

     

    Both Holmes and Hill appear more devastating then Sondland to me; maybe it was all of his bullshit yesterday and along the way.

  127. 127.

    cain

    @jonas: You’d think a party that spent half a century telling us how the Left in America were witting pawns of Soviet propaganda all during the Cold War would be more self-aware, but here we are.

    The only thing that has changed is that the Republican party is getting paid by the Russians. The left would have done it for free. Republicans would compromise everything for power and money. They are despicable.

  129. 129.

    Leto

    @Patricia Kayden: I was telling a friend that we have people in the government who won’t betray their ethics/oaths, and they’re here today speaking truth to corruption.

    They’re taking a blow torch to the May Day Party and the nation will be better for it.

  130. 130.

    germy

    “Since you’ve taken the job, how about that?”

    The poor republicans seem to be confronting hostile witness after hostile witness.

  131. 131.

    germy

    Trump's lies aren't meant to deceive. His hardcore followers are in on it with him. Saying why reality is bad requires too much effort (and might lead them to painful admissions about the source of the problem). So they're taking the easier route: Refuting reality altogether. https://t.co/74bIXfzMev

    — Roy Edroso (@edroso) November 21, 2019

  135. 135.

    germy

    @Marcopolo: Nunes has been leaving the hearing room the minute majority counsel starts asking questions.

    So who is he consulting with?  I’m genuinely curious.  He isn’t just taking coffee breaks, he must be talking to someone.  But who?

  136. 136.

    Fair Economist

    @Adam L Silverman: Putin wants his Republican pets in control in the US. Democrats have his number now and if we ever get back in control we will go after his money laundering, information manipulation, and his primary source of money, fossil fuels (which we need to attack for climate reasons anyway). He cannot risk a Democratic administration now and will do anything he can to stop it.

  137. 137.

    cain

    @Adam L Silverman:

    @Yarrow: It hasn’t been announced. I would expect that the career senior OMB official, Mark Sandy, will be called. They haven’t finalized his transcript for release yet. I think that’s due out today or tomorrow. Next week will be Thanksgiving break, so the earliest he’d testify is a week from next Tuesday. Given the news that broke late last night about Parnas and Nunes, I expect there will be an attempt by Parnas’s attorney to negotiate a deposition and public testimony before HPSCI. Whether Schiff decides this is necessary is another story. Remember, Parnas really works for Firtash. Firtash works for Putin. Putin’s goal is chaos within the US. Having Parnas turn on Giuliani, the President, Nunes, etc and do so publicly just creates more chaos for him to exploit.

    I assume the chaos is going to be caused by dead end trumpers who with the aid of Fox News and Hannity will continue muckrake all over creation trying to stop inevitable. I would LOVE to see Nunes get the shiv from Putin. The lord of chaos is laughing right now.

  138. 138.

    OGLiberal

    @Marcopolo: While the locals may not like it at first, I have read that resettled refugees are a net positive for the places in the US where they end up.  Many open small businesses which expose the locals to food, goods and services that they previously didn’t know they were missing out on.  And their kids tend to be pretty good students.

  142. 142.

    Marcopolo

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: My read on this is she has listened in on a number of these calls and doesn’t want to make any comments about this one call that might somehow give insight or reflect on any of those other calls.

  143. 143.

    Yarrow

    @cain:  Chaos is already happening, not “is going to be caused.” It will likely get worse, though. Hannity, Client Number 3, is in a whole world of trouble. Just haven’t got to him quite yet.

  146. 146.

    Leto

    @OGLiberal: Refugees tend to be the hardest working groups of people we have in this country. And most of them tend to instill in their children how lucky they are to be here, as well as a strong work ethic and a desire to succeed. Example 1 through infinity being Lt Col Vindman (and his brothers), Dr Hill, and a couple of our Dem Congressional reps who are participating in this hearing.

  147. 147.

    Barbara

    @Adam L Silverman:

    This was always the unintended consequence of the Citizens United decision. That what Kennedy decided was okay would lead to turning politics into organized crime, and, as is the case with Giuliani, disorganized crime.

    And yet, Pete Buttigieg actually made a public statement that we need more justices like Kennedy.  And Citizens United is just one of the horrors inflicted on us by Kennedy.  I am not normally trashing my non-preferred candidates, but this statement really stood out for me as a doozy, even if it was probably made more because of ignorance than policy related reasons.

  150. 150.

    Marcopolo

    @germy: I’d have to believe there is some kind of war room w/ a number of folks watching the testimony in real time & trying to formulate the best strategy for the R’s to take & that there is communication with them.

     

    Id also imagine that Nunes really doesn’t give a damn as to the actual testimony.

  151. 151.

    rp

    @germy: See also “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”  — Jean-Paul Sartre

  159. 159.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Fair Economist: That is the least of what should be done and is an important step, but also completely insufficient as a response. We are now five years too late to do this the easy way. I won’t derail this post with the details of what has to be done, but in short we need to reduce Russia. And yes, I’m using reduce in the military doctrinal sense.

  160. 160.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @OGLiberal: The CIA officer usually has another position. “Political officer” is a term that is used loosely. I think “Counselor for Political Affairs” is Holmes’s formal title.

    In another country, a friend took me to a US embassy party and asked me if I could spot the CIA lead. He was pretty obvious, and in a lower-level spot.

  161. 161.

    Barbara

    @rp: What a great quote.  It explains so much more than reprehensible positions, like anti-Semitism, but encapsulates even the trivial — such as when Stephanie Grisham accused departing Obama staff of leaving messages of “You will fail” behind when they left.  When they called her out she said that she thought it had been a prank, no need to make it into such a big deal, and can’t they take a joke?  Of course, she never corrected herself in the original forum where she made the claim.

  164. 164.

    West of the Rockies

    @Baud:

     

    I’ll just day that Vanderbilt isn’t sending its best people to Balloon Juice, okay? They’re researchers and educators and clerical staff, alright?  And some of them, I assume are nice people.

  166. 166.

    Barbara

    @Immanentize: Look at it this way:  If Bolton wants to tell his side of the story, he is certainly free to do so.  And if he wants to fall on his sword he can do that too.  No, we don’t “need” him.  I expect that he was probably closer to Volker than Vindman in his reaction, but more fastidious about not wanting to be the guy associated with it, even if he “knew” as he surely must have.

  167. 167.

    Leto

    @Yarrow: I think he was waiting for the Don McGahn verdict? I don’t remember atm.

     

    @Baud: Right??? Like… *mind blown gif*

    @Adam L Silverman: “Oh jeez, boss… it’s bad, it’s really bad! Whadduh I do, whadduh I do?!?!?! Stick to the script? If you think that’s best…”

  168. 168.

    LAO

    I can’t believe I’m writing this, but I’m really looking forward to Nunes questioning. I think Hill will rip him to shreds.

  169. 169.

    zhena gogolia

    @Yarrow:

     

    I just saw some a-hole reporter ask Pelosi if she’s regretting starting impeachment because “both sides are dug in and it’s just a partisan process.”

  171. 171.

    Immanentize

    @Yarrow: He refused a subpoena until a court tells him he should obey the subpoena instead of the President’s command that he not testify at all.  I am sure Bolton has some information that is “executive privilege” covered.  But that privilege is so narrow (actual conversations about the President regarding policy and decisions) that he could testify for days to stuff the privilege would never reach.  Unless the current Sup. Ct. decided to vastly expand its scope.  To increase criminality, of course.

     

    ETA — in every way but this one Ukraine issue, remember, Bolton is a hostile witness.

  173. 173.

    Leto

    @Immanentize: It is a double edge sword. But I also think that when you have most of the NSC staff coming out saying, “Bolton said go to the lawyers, Bolton stopped the meeting…” I think it’s similar in style to Barr, he won’t want to go down as a total monster and will try to salvage his reputation. This will give him the chance to do that. I think that the Dem lawyer can keep him on track/in the lane, won’t let him wander. Just my 2 cents on it.

  174. 174.

    Mandalay

    @Tom Levenson:

    David Holmes will be played by David Tennant in the movie.

    It’s a shame Peter Lorre isn’t still with us. He’d be great playing Devin Nunes, pushing all of his wacko conspiracy theories in a creepy voice.

  176. 176.

    NotMax

    I have a bone to pick with those who scheduled these hearing for the pre-dawn hours. Where’s insomnia when I actually need it?

    ;)

  178. 178.

    Yarrow

    Chuck Todd is saying they have a damning case and there are more breadcrumb trails to follow and more investigating to do. He’s right on that.

  179. 179.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax: For your sleep-sake, I hope they schedule more hearings when you should be getting zzzz’s  The recordings of the hearings will be there after you get some sleep.

  180. 180.

    Adam L Silverman

    @OGLiberal: I think you may be confusing US diplomats whose positions are political counselor/political advisor, the latter abbreviates as POLAD, with the old Soviet zampolits, which translates as political officers. The zampolits job was to both monitor for ideological errors and ensure ideological conformity among the unit he was assigned to.

  183. 183.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Barbara: I find Buttigieg perplexing. There is much that he seems to talk about that I like and then there are things he says like this that just make me shake my head. I’ve got no connection to him or his campaign, so I have no idea if he’s just really heterodox in his political views or if this is some sort of triangulation being pushed on him by Lis Smith who is running his campaign.

  184. 184.

    NotMax

    @Mandalay

    If we’re resurrecting for the role, then either Mike Mazurki or Broderick Crawford. Outside chance of Vic Tayback.

    :)

    And Holmes’ appearance calls to mind Peter Scolari.

  188. 188.

    waratah

    The quality of our career government employees is outstanding.  We  now know who is truly doing the work to keep our country running.  Thank goodness because we have problems with some of our elected officials.

  190. 190.

    OGLiberal

    @Adam L Silverman: I think you are correct.  For some reason, I thought Kermit Roosevelt was the “political officer” in Iran but just checked and see nothing to indicate that.  The histories I’m referring to often include stuff about both US and Soviet diplomats so that’s probably where the confusion came in.

  192. 192.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman:  I like what Buttigieg says a lot of the time but he’s friends with Zuckerberg and was a very early Facebook user. Until that issue is properly addressed I do not trust him. So that means whatever he says I see through the lens of him coddling Facebook and hence undermining democracy. That’s a hard no.

  193. 193.

    Patricia Kayden

    Yep.  Straight up Russian propaganda amplified by Republicans to aid their treasonous President.

    I feel like Im watching Russian TV. Btw the Russians have seized on @HouseGOP talking points and blaming Ukraine now vocally for attacking America while proclaiming their innocence. Good job GOP Russian intel couldn't have asked for more— Olga Lautman (@olgaNYC1211) November 21, 2019

  196. 196.

    Shalimar

    @The Dangerman: Holmes and Hill are being honest and forthright.  Sondland was at a minimum lying about his role and complicity.  I assume his testimony about what others said and did was truthful, but only because so much of it is confirmed by other witnesses.  He’s a weasel.

  201. 201.

    Shalimar

    @Yarrow: Hill is protecting Bolton as best she can.  Not lying for him per se, more that her respect for him clouds her memory of what happened.   There was no way he couldn’t have been aware of what was going on, so that isn’t much of a revelation.

     

    I still think Bolton and Hill were behind feeding the initial whistleblower information which ultimately ended up in the complaint.

  203. 203.

    The Dangerman

    @Yarrow:

     

    I like what Buttigieg says a lot of the time but he’s friends with Zuckerberg and was a very early Facebook user … that’s a hard no.

    Buttigieg is a hard no for me, too. He’s the mayor of a reasonably small town; Obama was savaged for being inexperienced (ignoring  all the other shit) and he was a U.S. Senator. Buttigieg would be a huge unforced error to nominate.

  204. 204.

    TriassicSands

    The truth is allergic to the president and GOP. Or is it that they are allergic to the truth?

     

    Hill’s statement (quoted above) must be particularly unwelcome to the Republicans. It will be interesting to see how Jordan, Nunes, and other Republicans go after Hill. Jordan may simply enhance the credibility of his questioning by shouting twice as loud as usual. When he begins his questioning, the Democrats should all pull out ear plugs.

     

    And I imagine everyone is breathlessly awaiting Trump’s line of attack. Traitor? He’s never met her? A woman’s place is in the kitchen? The Brits would have lost WWII if the Americans hadn’t come to their rescue? She’s obviously “Deep State?”

     

    Come to think of it, it would have been nice if Hill had added some commentary about the absurdity of the Right’s claims of “Deep State” conspiracies designed to “get” Donald Trump.

  205. 205.

    Kent

    @Adam L Silverman:@Barbara: I find Buttigieg perplexing. There is much that he seems to talk about that I like and then there are things he says like this that just make me shake my head. I’ve got no connection to him or his campaign, so I have no idea if he’s just really heterodox in his political views or if this is some sort of triangulation being pushed on him by Lis Smith who is running his campaign.

    He seems like too much of a people pleaser which probably serves him well as a mayor in a red state.  His instinct is to be collaborative and conciliatory in a “can’t we all just get along” sort of way.  Being a partisan firebrand like Sanders is not going to take you far in Indiana politics.   But however well those instincts have served him in local politics, I’m not sure they are what we need today when the fires of Mordor are engulfing us and the orcs are inside the castle.

  206. 206.

    NotMax

    @Leto
    A few career highlights:

    Crawford: Born Yesterday, All the King’s Men (films), Highway Patrol (TV).
    Mazurki: Murder, My Sweet, Nightmare Alley (films)
    Tayback: Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore (film), Alice (TV).

    Scolari (who is quite alive): Bosom Buddies, Newhart (TV).

  207. 207.

    dr. bloor

    @NYCMT: I can’t read Hebrew, so I’m going to assume that translates to “We finally nailed this four-flushing, apartheid-promoting asshole’s butt to the wall.”

  210. 210.

    OGLiberal

    @Shalimar: I agree.  Bolton is concentrated evil but he knows what you’re not supposed to do, which probably made him persona non grata from day 1. (never thought it would work out – again, Bolton is evil but in a much more competent way)  He was not going to go down with this shitshow.

  211. 211.

    Shalimar

    @Kent: Agree.  For everyone frustrated with Obama for attempting to compromise with Republicans over and over and over and over and over, only to have them renege on every agreement and ask for more, Buttigieg is that philosophy repeated again on meth.  No thanks.

  213. 213.

    Kent

    @The Dangerman: Buttigieg’s problem is the same one that Beto has.  He’s a rising Dem star in a red state which makes the logical statewide offices of governor or senator extremely difficult to pull off.  About the only offices reasonably available are Congressional seats in blue districts (Beto) or municipal positions in blue cities (Mayor Pete).

     

    These are the PERFECT candidates for Cabinet level positions in a Dem administration because they allow us to deepen the bench and not rob existing Dem Senators and Governors out of red states like Obama did way too much of.    Buttigieg would make a great Secretary of Commerce or some such, in charge of NOAA and the Census and the Small Business Administration.

     

    But yes, not ready for the presidency.  He doesn’t have nearly enough experience being a hardass in the face of GOP obstruction.

  215. 215.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Bless you, BJ. You keep me up to date on what’s going on.

    Took a tour of Dakar today. They get almost no Western tourist trade, so the cruise people warned us to adjust our expectations, but I have to say, it was great. Among other things, the shoreline here is beautiful. I gather there’s good surfing. Not that I’d surf.

  217. 217.

    Immanentize

    @Barbara: I wondered about the Kennedy comment too.  The last thing the Court needs is another Catholic.  It’s like Buttigieg is running in the main election rather than in the primary.  He could have picked Bryer, or Kagan even, if he wanted to stay away from the tough girls.  I wonder if this is his funders speaking?

  219. 219.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kent:

    But however well those instincts have served him in local politics, I’m not sure they are what we need today when the fires of Mordor are engulfing us and the orcs are inside the castle.

     

    Well put. But to defend Buttigieg just a little (even though he dropped out of my top tier after the hard swerve to the center lane), I think his comment about Justice Kennedy is widely misunderstood. Kennedy was appointed by Reagan but turned out to be more independent than people expected. He made many terrible decisions, but he also sided with the liberals on some incredibly important cases.

     

    I think that’s all Buttigieg meant. He wasn’t saying Kennedy is the ideal justice.

  220. 220.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kent: These are the PERFECT candidates for Cabinet level positions in a Dem administration because they allow us to deepen the bench and not rob existing Dem Senators and Governors out of red states like Obama did way too much of.

     

    I think this is what both of them were really running for.  They can’t say this out loud of course.

  221. 221.

    J R in WV

     

     

    Well, I’m going to see a fresh new (to me) ortho surgeon about my broken knee…  Better than watching D. Nunes!!

     

    This morning when I went to start making coffee, and turned the faucet at the kitchen sink, nothing happened!! Life never stops! As Next door neighbor who shares the well said, “It’s just plumbing, it can be fixed!”

  222. 222.

    dr. bloor

    @Kent: I have a conceptual problem with using the Cabinet as a training table for rising stars.  They’re very important positions, and need to be occupied by individuals who (a) can command the respect of the lifers they supervise, and (b) speak authoritatively to the POTUS about matters within his/her department as well as offer useful input on non-department matters in Cabinet meetings.

     

    Deputy? Sure. I just can’t see the Mayor of Indianapolis as being ready for a seat at the big table yet.

  225. 225.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Cheryl Rofer: I used to live in a neighborhood that had a lot of NSA employees. You could always spot them because when you asked one of them where they worked, they’d stop dead, look nervous, and mutter “DoD”. General guidance at least at that time was to give “DoD” as your employer name and not name NSA, but I think they were doing OpSec wrong.

     

    There was a time in my life I was spending a lot of time hanging out in a SCIF without much to do and so I hung out with the security people. They taught me how you can give truthful but boring answers and deflect interest without looking nervous or lying. I always wondered why that wasn’t part of formal training for everybody.

  226. 226.

    Barbara

    @Adam L Silverman: I have the same reaction, and I agree, part of it is having to deal with the facts on the ground of living in a red state.  I also think it is a lack of seasoning, and not having a firm grasp of things like Supreme Court politics that becomes second nature over time.  I really don’t think he is ready to be president.

  227. 227.

    Adam L Silverman

    @OGLiberal: Kermit Roosevelt went to Iran to run the coup against Mossadegh. By the time he actually got on site events had already started and he spent the entire week to ten days hiding in someone’s basement as a safe house because it wasn’t safe for him to go out on the street.

  228. 228.

    dr. bloor

    @Omnes Omnibus:  There are a bunch of deputy/undersecretary level positions in the government where one could learn enough over the course of a couple years to be credibly elevated for the latter half of a POTUS’s first term or during a second term.

  229. 229.

    Kent

    Although I’m currently working as a HS science teacher, I spent my previous 15 year career working mostly as a mid-level administrator and biologist with the National Marine Fisheries Service, mostly working on fisheries regulations in Alaska and in Washington DC.  And I also did some details to Washington to work on legislation as a Congressional liaison.  So I have a pretty clear understanding of how the government works and how agencies work.

     

    What we need in the next president and administration is a whole bunch of expert partisan knife fighters who can go deep into every department of the Federal government, root out all the Trump legacies, identify all the expert loyalists remaining in each department who know where all the bodies are buried.  And then just clean house.  Also, more importantly, re-examine and reverse every single egregious corrupt act of the Trump Admin in every branch of government.  They have been cutting corners right and left in their mad dash to deregulate every aspect of government.  It is absolutely certain that they are cutting legal corners everywhere and just getting away for it for now when not challenged in the courts by outside groups.  The next president needs to just immediately roll back every single Trump act that doesn’t have every T crossed and I dotted.  Just exert the raw executive power to do it.  And for those acts that were actually done entirely correctly, start the longer process of replacing those regulations with sensible ones.

     

    Hillary Clinton would have been that sort of president, I think.  Of the existing candidates, I think Warren and Harris strike me as the biggest work horses who would have the right people around them to tackle that kind of job.  I think Biden, Klobuchar, and Buttigieg would be entirely to conciliatory and do stupid shit like appoint GOPers to Cabinet positions in an attempt to “unify the country”.  Although of those three I would take Klobuchar.   Sanders is a show horse.  He doesn’t seem to respect the many hard working talented folks we have working in government and my fear with him is that we would get a lot of incompetent “sandalista” type appointees spread around government in over their heads.

  230. 230.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: “I am an analyst specializing in basalt  and limestone futures.  Actually, it’s really interesting; the French market is really heating up and has moved a quarter point this month ….”

  234. 234.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @dr. bloor: Got it.  It’s not the idea of using administration positions as a training ground; it’s that you don’t think that the top jobs should be there to give people experience.  Fair enough.

  235. 235.

    Kent

    @dr. bloor: Well, there’s always a learning curve and not every cabinet position is equal to the others.  State, Treasury, Defense, etc. you need top experienced people obviously.  Commerce, HUD, and some of the others, while still important, have more room for growth.   Did you disagree with Obama appointing Julian Castro as HUD secretary?   He was a mayor before that, from a red state.  And an example of what I’m talking about.   On the other hand, Arne Duncan was a disaster as Sec. of Education and he came from Chicago schools.  But he was more of a disaster politically rather than in terms of competence.

  236. 236.

    zhena gogolia

    @Gin & Tonic:

     

    I woke up this morning and started laughing hysterically at my own thoughts. I thought, “What if Buttigieg got the nomination and chose Sean Maloney as his VP? We’d have two handsome, straight-shooting, eloquent white males — both of them gay.” For some reason this hit me as amusing.

  237. 237.

    zhena gogolia

    @Shalimar:

     

    Well, I’m not at all frustrated with Obama, so I’m still open to Buttigieg. As well as to all the Democratic candidates except Gabbard and Sanders (not a Democrat, of course).

  240. 240.

    dr. bloor

    @Kent:

    Did you disagree with Obama appointing Julian Castro as HUD secretary?

    No, but it was hard to get worked up about a transparent attempt to bring along someone who seemed benevolent and competent after four years of foisting the likes of Gates, Geithner, and Duncan on us.

     

    Obama might be my favorite president in my lifetime at this point, but good God he made some terrible Cabinet and Cabinet-level appointments.

  241. 241.

    OGLiberal

    @Adam L Silverman: I believe I remember reading about him traveling to some embassy – not sure if it was ours or the UK – and having to lie down in the back seat of the car so he wouldn’t be seen

     

    ETA: That was, I believe, from “All the Shah’s Men”, which I loved but don’t know your opinion on it.

  242. 242.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @Adam L Silverman: he’s the son of a Notre Dame professor so he’s used to dealing with the “business Republicans” and the “religious Republicans” as my spouse and I say, and far too used to thinking that the business Republicans can be reasoned with IMAO.

  243. 243.

    gvg

    @Betty Cracker: I seem to recall Justice Kennedy made some really significant rulings for gay rights.  I think that might make gays more prone to seeing Kennedy as a good guy.

  244. 244.

    Just Chuck

    @PST: Honestly, I think just repeating the phrase “Moscow Party Line” when talking about the GOP would do the trick.  Which the Dems with their famously tight message discipline will get right on, I’m sure.

  245. 245.

    Just Chuck

    @Adam L Silverman: Oddly, I’m still a little torn on Citizens United.  As I recall, it was because the Citizens United PAC wanted to publish a pamphlet (a dishonest political hit job, but beside the point) just before an election, and was enjoined from doing so because it would constitute a campaign contribution.  They sued and and won on first amendment grounds.

     

    You won’t find me arguing that money == speech, but what was the proper decision in that case?  Yes I’d argue that such super-PACs have more real power than they constitutionally deserve in the first place and that much stricter finance regulations should apply to them, but that would seem to have been outside the scope of the case.

  247. 247.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @Adam L Silverman: And isn’t he some big buddy with Zuckerberg? Classmate/friend in college?

     

    He sort of came out of nowhere with zero national political history,and now he’s getting super high poll numbers?

     

    Are there some big $$ people behind him?

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