Per the Washington Post, “Democrats Sharpen Impeachment Case… “:
Democrats sharpened their case for impeachment Thursday, escalating their rhetoric against President Trump as additional evidence emerged potentially implicating him directly in the abuse-of-power controversy surrounding U.S. relations with Ukraine.
Using her most aggressive language yet, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) accused Trump of committing “bribery” by seeking to use U.S. military aid as leverage to pressure the Ukrainian government to conduct investigations that could politically benefit the president.
Pelosi’s move to cite a specific constitutional offense and move away from using the lawyerly Latin term “quid pro quo” to describe the president’s actions came as a second official from the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv was revealed to have overheard Trump discussing political “investigations” in a July 26 phone call with Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union who served as a key liaison between the White House and Ukraine’s fledgling government.
That phone call, which Trump has said he doesn’t recall, is expected to play a pivotal role in upcoming impeachment proceedings, as Democrats seek to directly tie Trump to what they charge was a bribery scheme worthy of removal from office. David Holmes, an embassy staffer in Ukraine who allegedly overheard Trump discussing “investigations” with Sondland, is slated to testify behind closed doors in the House impeachment probe Friday…
On Friday, the impeachment hearings will continue with public and private testimony.
Marie Yovanovitch, the former ambassador to Ukraine who was recalled earlier this year by Trump, is scheduled to appear at an open hearing of the House Intelligence Committee…
While Yovanovitch’s testimony could help Democrats build a broad case that Trump and Giuliani were using conspiracy theories and shadowy arrangements to advance their personal and political interests in Ukraine, Holmes’s private testimony is expected to be more critical to the central thrust of the impeachment inquiry…
Pelosi’s embrace of the term bribery — one of only two crimes specifically cited in the Constitution as impeachable — comes after nearly two months of debate over whether Trump’s conduct amounted to a “quid pro quo” — a Latin term describing an exchange of things of value.
Bribery, Pelosi suggested, amounted to a translation of quid pro quo that would stand to be more accessible to Americans: “Talking Latin around here: E pluribus unum — from many, one. Quid pro quo — bribery. And that is in the Constitution, attached to the impeachment proceedings.”
Article II of the Constitution holds that the president and other civil federal officials “shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.”…
Funny cartoon, but it’s got it backwards: Trump wasn’t bribing Ukraine, he was demanding a bribe from Ukraine (to wit, the public smearing of Biden on CNN) in exchange for not withholding the funds he was legally obligated to release.
Of course, the Wingnut Wurlitzer is now screaming that it’s only “attempted” bribery, as though the fact that the scheme fell through somehow drops it out of the scope of impeachable abuse of power.
2.
hells littlest angel
It can not be said often enough: Nancy Pelosi is fucking brilliant. I would love to see her as president for a few months — if for no other reason than to put things in order for the Warren or Harris administration that would follow her.
It’s called an inquiry, and if the President has something that is exculpatory – Mr. President, that means if you have anything that shows your innocence – then he should make that known, and that’s part of the inquiry, and so far we haven’t seen that, but we welcome it, and that’s what an inquiry is about.
Weapons-grade snark here. Nancy Smash is kicking ass and taking names.
4.
ChicagoPat
While I love that she’s stepping up the rhetoric, what he did was extortion. You bribe someone of equal or greater standing, you extort someone with less power than you. Ukraine needed our help and protection, Trump threatened to withhold it unless they gave something of personal, political value.
5.
Patricia Kayden
Democrats aren’t playing. Let’s see if the useless mainstream media whines about a lack of pizzazz in today’s hearing.
6.
NotMax
Awful lot of raw code showing in the post. Something ain’t kosher.
7.
Baud
@John Revolta: That may be the most perfect things she’s ever said. Very awesome.
8.
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: They’re still working out bugs for embedded code, specifically Twitter and video, I think. Looks like they’ve got images squared away, so that’s progress!
Corrupt solicitation, acceptance, or transfer of value in exchange for official action.
Overview
Bribery refers to the offering, giving, soliciting, or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing the actions of an individual holding a public or legal duty. This type of action results in matters that should be handled objectively being handled in a manner best suiting the private interests of the decision maker. Bribery constitutes a crime and both the offeror and the recipient can be criminally charged.
Proof of bribery requires demonstrating a “quid pro quo” relationship in which the recipient directly alters behavior in exchange for the gift. Because the relationship does not occur directly enough, campaign donations from corporations or individuals to political candidates do not constitute bribery. Another element of proving bribery includes proving intent to influence the discharging of another’s official duties. Some statutes also require proof that both parties understand and agree to the arrangement. Attempts to bribe exist at common law and under the Model Penal Code, and often, the punishment for attempted bribery and completed bribery are identical. Solicitation of a bribe also constitutes a crime and is completed regardless of whether the solicitation results in the receipt of a valuable gift. Economists consider bribery to negatively impact economic growth because it encouraged rent seeking behavior. Rent seeking behavior refers to an individual’s or corporation’s attempt to illicitly influence the open market in order to provide that individual or corporation with a disproportionate amount of wealth. Such an environment results in a sub-optimal allocation of resources, which results in depressed economic growth.
if the President has something that is exculpatory
The both funny and sad thing is that he thinks he has. His responses make it blatantly clear that he thinks the ‘transcript’, rather than a confession, vindicates him completely and makes him look awesome. It’s everyone around him who realizes what a clusterfuck he’s created by releasing it.
13.
lashon harumph
@ChicagoPat: How long before someone says Pelosi is stupid for calling it bribery instead of extortion and since extortion isn’t in the Constitution no impeachment?
14.
Bruce K
@ChicagoPat: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, let’s lock the whole gang up. But Trump was essentially soliciting a bribe through extortionate means – demanding something of value (an accusation by Zelensky against Biden broadcast on CNN) in exchange for the performance of his duty (releasing the Congressionally allocated funds).
And calling it bribery has additional power because that’s explicit constitutional grounds for impeachment under Article 2, Section 4. Prove that to the American people to a moral certainty, and the Senate GOP is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
@terben: I checked the law, and 18 USC 201 (b)(1)(A) seems to apply, in that Trump demanded something of value in exchange for being influenced in the performance of an official act (in this case, to release the unlawful hold on the Ukraine aid). Under that statute, it appears that you can be convicted of bribery even if the person you’re demanding the bribe from tells you to go pound sand and goes directly to the authorities. (Analysis here via New York Magazine.)
19.
Bruce K
@Baud: Yeah, but the same schmendricks that tried to sweep that fellatio under the “other high crimes and misdemeanors” clause (yeah, yeah, it was the lying about it that was grounds for impeachment; pull the other one, it’s got bells on) are trying to argue that what Trump did isn’t impeachable, and since they’re already reduced to arguing that attempted bribery doesn’t count on Day 2 of the public hearings, I’m starting to get the impression that they might be in a little bit of trouble…
The world’s largest social media company is listed as a “gold circle” sponsor of the 2019 National Lawyers Convention in Washington, and is featured in the guidebook app for the event, where Kavanaugh was scheduled as the keynote speaker on Thursday evening.
The Federalist Society has played a key role in the decades-long Republican strategy to pack US courts with conservatives, which has been advanced under Donald Trump’s administration. The group’s executive vice-president, Leonard Leo, advised the president on Kavanaugh’s controversial appointment.
I wonder how long it will take me to get used to the new commenting format.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he personally returned a letter that President Donald Trump sent him last month, warning him against an offensive in northern Syrian before Turkey began its incursion.
Trump’s letter, dated Oct. 9, cautioned Erdogan not to be a “tough guy” or a “fool.”
Erdogan said in a joint news conference with Trump that he returned the letter during a meeting at the White House earlier on Wednesday. Trump didn’t respond at the news conference. Source
oh my god i assumed this was a summary of her gist but it's a direct quote. she really says this. they're really doing the "they don't give nobel prizes in attempted chemistry" thing https://t.co/rxY8mTwS7G— Josh Fruhlinger (@jfruh) November 15, 2019
33.
OzarkHillbilly
Want to spend 19 hrs and 19 minutes cooped up with 300 irritable, bored to tears, sleep deprived, underfed, over stressed people? Qantas has a flight for you.
@ola azul: Hey, how ya doin’? I was thinking about your insightful comments just the other day. and was about to ask if you’d been around, but never did, and here you are. Stick around if yer able.
38.
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax: I personally, can not imagine why anybody would knowingly inflict such heinous torture upon themselves. Madrid to Miami made me suicidal.
Funny you should ask. Was wondering if i’d haveta answer this question and wasn’t sure how I’d respond if did.
But first, lemme say: Sorry I missed your recounting of the rig trip in real time (saw pics; yellowfins is shit-kicker tough! nice work! the feed looked delish). Always enjoy your adventures!
Will just say: Was, without warning and not asked, to, ahem, go onna blog exile. Not my blog, not my say. Don’t know who, don’t know why, but there it is.
But apparently there’sa day of jubilee with the new design where I can post again (for now!; this were sort’va test to see if I could after a month of not being able to).
Looked like your and your crew hadda helluva fine trip.
40.
OzarkHillbilly
Baud, that all depends on which definition of “high” one is using. The Oval Office is definitely higher than the basement.
(for some reason the reply button on your comment is missing, everybody else’s has one)
41.
Raven
Try Tan Son Nhut to Guam, sit on the runway with your duffle baf for three hours, get on a 141 and fly to Travis seated backwards freezing your ass off and then sit on a concrete floor for 3 days because in Oakland because THEY were not ready for some many ETS’ing at the same time!
42.
Raven
@ola azul: Hmmm, no likey. The trip was fun and the craft was amazing. We would have liked to have caught more but that’s fishin.
43.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: Fuck that shit. I probably would of gone postal.
@OzarkHillbilly: There were some grunts right out of the bush who were close but you didn’t want to fuck that up when you were back in the world! That’s why the “last chance” barrel was full of dope!
47.
Gin & Tonic
@OzarkHillbilly: I have done LAX-MEL, about 15.5 hours. If you approach it with the right frame of mind, it’s manageable. If you board saying to yourself “this will be torture” then it probably will. But the Pacific is big, and there’s really no short way across.
48.
Raven
@Baud: We flew commercial to Guam and then got on a C-141. Sept 1969 was the start of the pullout and they weren’t ready.
@OzarkHillbilly: longest non-stop I ever took was Chicago to Delhi (and back two weeks later). Going was about 15 hours because of the jet stream, back was more like 17 hours. IIRC. But it was Air India, so the food was good and the drinks plentiful.
50.
Raven
@Gin & Tonic: we flew Saigon to Darwin. They sprayed the plane, took our tobacco and ushered us into a “bar”. We all got a couple of brews and then were ushered back on the plane. We had no clue how long the flight to Sydney was!!!
51.
germy
Myles Garrett just committed actual assault on the football field. Get him out of here for the SEASON. pic.twitter.com/a7pkN6HZeg— pat muldowney (@muldowney) November 15, 2019
@Gin & Tonic: Hence, I will never fly across the Pacific. I need breaks. I have to able to get up and walk. My hips demand it. My knees demand it. My sanity demands it.
54.
scribbler
@ola azul:
I for one am sorry to hear you were exiled, and glad you are back. I have missed your insightful and evocative posts. I know your style can be different, but surely there should be room allowed to color outside the lines, when the colors are so interesting.
55.
JPL
Wow, I just read the late blogs and discovered that we have commenting rules. Well let me say f.k that.
@eclare: having flown to Asia from Chicago three times now, I ‘m torn between just getting there and having a stopover to get off the plane and really walk around. Because the stopovers end up making it almost 24 straight hours of travel. Though you do get little samples of countries you haven’t been to yet, in my case China and Japan.
@OzarkHillbilly: in flights that long they’re pretty liberal about letting you get up and move around the cabin, so lots of people walk around. Which is crazy-making in a different way.
@JPL: I saw that and said to myself, JPL’s days here and numbered.
63.
Baud
Where is Suzanne?
64.
eclare
@satby: I definitely see your point. When I flew back from Greece years ago, it took 24 hours from when I started to walk into my apartment. Three aircraft changes. But I also worry about things like blood clots, so I was glad to be able to walk around some, even if it was in an airport.
It’s my understanding that impeachment is a political process, not a criminal one: POTUS can be impeached (and removed from office) for pretty much anything that in Congress’ judgement makes him unfit to continue in office — not necessarily an actual crime.
I think the fact that he’s a venal doodyhead by itself makes him unfit to continue in office. But I can’t see the House putting that in the articles of impeachment, even though the Republican party doesn’t dispute it.
@eclare: I just try to roll with whatever and remember that my ancestors had to travel over weeks in a tiny, crowded ship where many died along the route to go roughly the same distance. And that being able to travel for leisure at all is a privilege.
We really live in amazing times, to be able to go across the globe in hours, grueling though it can be.
68.
JWR
@ola azul: Kinda look at this place as a largely good-willed, kind buncha fellow travelers. Will if can.
IKR? Republicans can’t cope with the fact that Dems are pushing back. Hence Jordan’s sputtering, Kennedy’s babbling, etc.
72.
OzarkHillbilly
@satby: letting you get up and move around the cabin,
Blech. Been there. Done that. It’s like getting a little sip of water after being denied any for 3 days.
73.
Patricia Kayden
@debbie: Republicans aren’t helping their cause. And the more witnesses that testify publicly, the more evidence against Trump comes out. Trump is going to be impeached.
I don’t think that’s worse than KAC’s assertion that this is all a nothingburger because Ukraine got the aid (eventually) and Zelensky didn’t have to make a public statement about investigating the Bidens. “It didn’t happen, so no foul.”
75.
debbie
Huh, I edited, but it didn’t take and the editing bar totally disappeared.
I once spent a whole day on a plane journey to the US. I boarded a plane in KL on a Monday morning, and when I landed in LA it was still only Monday afternoon. Never again.
77.
germy
Hi @AOC, not sure who you bought my email from, but I assure you I didn’t sign up for your mailing list. Also, you offer no way to unsubscribe. Please release me! pic.twitter.com/cM4gsaYZpM— Dave Rubin (@RubinReport) November 15, 2019
This is the official Congressional press list, not a supporter mailing list. Our apologies, as someone must have mistaken you for a journalist. That’ll be fixed right away.— Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) November 15, 2019
First “blech” I’ve seen since the site change. Now I feel “at home.”
Unfortunately, in my case, the “Home” is like one of those named “Happy Valley” or “Shady Acres” — one where the “guests” stumble around in a fog, because we’re heavily medicated
81.
Patricia Kayden
@germy: germy, how were you able to embed a tweet? Thanks in advance.
ETA: In the replies, someone posted Rubin’s alleged Wikipedia page, noting that he died yesterday, “Murdered on Twitter by Congresswoman.”
Also, one of his moron replies said that was the wittiest thing she’s ever said. He doesn’t pay much attention, or is too stupid to figure things out on his own.
Lot harder to reply w/confidence it’s gonna make good till bugs is worked out (if it don’t scan right, it prolly ain’t!), but:
Appreciative of your kind encouragement. Specially just washing over the transom how it done. I realize I ain’t ever’one’s cuppa gumbo and that’s OK. But: I’d like to think, naif that I am, that it’s my prerogative to express myself how I choose.
84.
Patricia Kayden
The only reason that the White House releases the aid is because they found out about the whistleblower complaint. That’s it.
85.
germy
I paste the imbedded tweet while in “text” mode, then delete the last line of code at the bottom of the tweet.
(appears after “blockquote”)
It’s the code that gets you blocked.
86.
Baud
@germy: I assume Rubin’s next tweet will be about how he’s being blacklisted by AOC.
I wonder why someone who claimed he wanted the world to see his taxes—is now appealing to the Supreme Court to shield those taxes from public view. Someone who loves transparency. Honestly, Trump supporters: There isn’t a bigger criminal in our country than our president.— Chelsea Handler (@chelseahandler) November 14, 2019
I actually think there was another reason. The fiscal year was ending which meant they had to put up or shut up publicly about whthwhe they were going to withhold aid.
90.
JWR
@Patricia Kayden: And the more witnesses that testify publicly, the more evidence against Trump comes out.
But, but, Amy Walter (PBS) said hearings on live TV wouldn’t matter! // ;)
While I love that she’s stepping up the rhetoric, what he did was extortion. You bribe someone of equal or greater standing, you extort someone with less power than you.
What does it say when 9 of 10 states with the most kids dependent on free lunches are Red?
1: Mississippi
2: New Mexico
3: Louisiana
4: Oklahoma
5: Arkansas
6: Georgia
7: Kentucky
8: Florida
9: Alabama
10: Tennessee— Allen ?✊???? (@abutler04) November 14, 201
It woiks!
97.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: My first comment after the site change said something like “Blech. I hate the new web site.” Not true but it had to be said. That was in some mid afternoon Mister Mix post. Then I scrolled down the blog looking at all the posts I was denied access to all day long that apparently everybody else had been conversing on all day and I wondered if somebody was trying to tell me something.
HEY GUYS? IF YOUR LISTENING, I DON’T TAKE HINTS.
98.
JPL
Ozark, A few of us wondered what happened to you, but just a few of us.
Hey speaking of the Evil Ice Queen, here is a great peek-behind-the-curtain about how she (and really all the big names at Faux) twists the truth and manipulates their viewers:
In Ingraham’s telling, the House impeachment hearings are the liberal elite’s latest attempt to thwart the will of the American people and overturn the results of a democratic election in order to sabotage a transformative president and reconsolidate power within the clutches of the hated deep state. By deriding Rep. Adam Schiff’s investigation as akin to some godless KGB tribunal, depicting Democrats as an immoral and idiotic cabal intent on curtailing Americans’ most cherished freedoms, and using her legal bona fides to discredit impeachment proceedings by reiterating over and over the purported lack of any underlying crime, Ingraham is intent on doing to impeachment what Hannity helped do to the Mueller report: priming viewers to mistrust the process and reject the outcome.
Ingraham is not alone in this task. For all of their surface differences, Fox News’ three marquee evening opinion programs are basically indistinguishable on the substance. Tucker Carlson Tonight, Hannity, and The Ingraham Angle all emphasize the greatness of America; the horrors of globalism, socialism, and multiculturalism; the many accomplishments of Trump; and the moral bankruptcy of the liberal elite. The news of the day gives these themes velocity and direction, but the playbook is the same. Watch Fox News straight through for a week and you have basically seen every Fox News show ever.
Ingraham has the laugh of an upperclassman about to give a nerd aswirly.
But Fox amplifies these themes by having the same messages come out of three very different mouths. Carlson projects earnestness and appeals to the educated xenophobe. Sean Hannity throws rage tantrums and is the lion of America’s furious YouTube autodidacts. Ingraham’s shtick is snickering contempt. She is the mean one of the trio, forever stifling a laugh at whomever or whatever she is about to mock or marginalize. Her demographic is everyone who finds it hysterical when Trump insults Rosie O’Donnell or mocks a disabled reporter. There are a lot of these people, and while The Ingraham Angle consistently trails Hannity and Carlson in the ratings, it still ranks among the top five most-watched shows on cable news.
Ingraham is jocular without being funny or witty. She has the laugh of an upperclassman about to give a nerd a swirly. Whether she is interrupting guests with sarcastic asides, scoffing at what she deems the Democrats’ Goofus-style shenanigans, or razzing her ideological counterparts, Ingraham always seems to be having a great time being one of the worst people on television.
101.
zhena gogolia
Yovanovitch today? Oh, God, I’ll get nothing done.
My first comment after the site change said something like “Blech. I hate the new web site.”
That’s as may be. What I said was that it’s the first one I sawsince the changeover.
104.
danielx
This.
From what I can tell, Trump really and truly doesn’t see anything wrong with his actions. To the extent he’s thought about it (which admittedly wouldn’t be long, like thirty seconds), he felt he was using leverage – normal business tactic! For him, that is. It’s only, like, everyone else who sees this as criminal. For him, it was business as usual and normal behavior – as in Donald Trump doing whatever necessary to get what Donald Trump wants. Since rules that apply to everyone else don’t apply to him….
And there is nothing Hannity, Carlson, or Ingraham could do to make their zombie moron watchers turn away from them.
Well, maybe if they came out and said “Trump’s racist policies are hurting America.” And maybe “black/brown people deserve the same rights and privileges that white people take for granted.”
111.
Immanentize
This whole bribery versus extortion thing is dumb.
Trump offered military aid for a public statement on CNN (take that libtards) that there was a serious investigation about Biden, son and father.
Trump offered a personal White House visit for a public statement on CNN (take that libtards) that there was a serious investigation about Biden, son and father.
That was a bribe. The President of Ukraine would not have done it without the inducement(s). And he would be doing it in his official capacity as President of Ukraine, not as TV comic or private citizen.
Bribes. Things of value offered to induce an official to do something they wouldn’t otherwise do.
See, foreign corrupt practices act.
112.
Sab
It may be just me, but in that cartoon, that donkey looks more like a wolf or a coyote than a donkey. Donkeys have big faces or muzzles. Wolves or coyotes have pointy thin snouts.
Actually, no. She was serious. But she also analyzes polls in the most Republican friendly way. I like spotting her biases in real time. Or, what @Baud said.
And yes, ashamed to say that I hate watch PBS NewsHour political stuff, but only so you don’t have to. ;)
114.
Baud
@Jeffro: I think your comment violates Cole’s new rules of decorum.
I disagree re: whether it’s a bribe. He was not offering military aid in exchange for a statement; that had already been passed by Congress. He was threatening to withhold the already-authorized military aid if Zelensky did not make a very public statement about Biden.
It’s kind of like a protection racket (extortion) vs. payola (bribery).
That being said: I’m OK with use of the word “Bribery,” primarily because of the “Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and misdemeanors” clause. Basically, I want to reduce to zero (if possible) the number of loopholes Party of Traitors can use. [The “Demon-rats are talking about extortion, but that word doesn’t appear in …” bullshit that they’re already trying.]
116.
zhena gogolia
I spent an hour yesterday explaining the Constitution, checks and balances, and impeachment to a local (non-academic) friend yesterday. Our education system is seriously f–ed up. They don’t teach any of this stuff.
117.
Leto
@Immanentize: It’s all of that. He bribes, extorts, corrupts everything… as always it’s distressing that we have to literally dumb everything down to the level of an infant to try to make people understand wtf is going on. Similar to when I was writing performance reports and was told, “Don’t use a $10 word when a nickle will do”. That always pissed me off because maybe that $10 word was the best fit, and I shouldn’t have to dumb down my language because you’re a mouth breathing idiot.
118.
zhena gogolia
In general, I’m getting used to the new site, but I hate these buttons on the side, especially the left. It gets in my way. I don’t even know what it’s for.
To be accurate, Counselor, Trump did not offer military aid. Trump suggested that the legally appropriated aid would continue to be (illegally?) held up until Zelensky “did him a favor.”
ETA: It appears that, for once, SFAW is quicker on the keyboard than I am.
120.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: I’ve had similar experiences. That was part of my high school graduation requirements (civics class), but I’m beginning to suspect that my school was 1) unique and 2) I was the only one awake. Granted, I’ve read up about it more on my own but still…
121.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
So all you experienced long-haul air travelers, what’s your approach when the person in front of you reclines so far back you can’t eat your meal or see your movie, and they ignore requests from you and the flight attendants?
About the bribery / extortion argument, some things I’ve read said a federal crime was committed as soon as he ordered OMB to hold the funds.
But I guess then they’d raise the defense that the constitution says “misdemeanors”, not “felonies”.
122.
OzarkHillbilly
As @Bruce K: so elegantly stated, “You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, let’s lock the whole gang up.”
123.
raven
To go back to the previous post.
124.
pinacacci
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned because sadly am short on time this AM, have to get to work, but driving home last night listened to NPR and was DELIGHTED to hear whoever was interviewing Gym Jordan give him lots of pushback. ON NPR!! Not used to hearing it. He was reduced by the end to the hyper squirrel Gish gallop someone memorably described before…it was surreal and wonderful. Might have been Audie Cornish and possibly a second interviewer. If NPR is finally doing actual interviews instead of letting them speechify, we may have crossed the event horizon.
125.
chopper
they’re really gonna go with “they don’t give out nobel prizes for attempted chemistry”, aren’t they.
126.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: I think you still have to click the “Reply” button twice to get the @Nym into your reply.
127.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: I’m sure what that means as far as the question zhena asked?
Funny cartoon, but it’s got it backwards: Trump wasn’t bribing Ukraine, he was demanding a bribe from Ukraine (to wit, the public smearing of Biden on CNN) in exchange for not withholding the funds he was legally obligated to release.
Of course, the Wingnut Wurlitzer is now screaming that it’s only “attempted” bribery, as though the fact that the scheme fell through somehow drops it out of the scope of impeachable abuse of power.
You are plain old wrong. The bribe was $400,000,000 worth of military equipment. The bribe was intended to produce the creation of a phony investigation of the Biden’s which would have produced fake dirt for Trump to use in his Presidential campaign.
But Trump fuqed up twice… He didn’t know the new Ukraine president was an honest reformer — even though he was in the middle of an existential crisis, being attacked by the Russian miiltary — the President was not willing to conduct a phony investigation and produce fake accusations.
He also fuqed up by not being to maintain operational security in his own White House… honest members of the federal government came to know about the bribery plot, the withholding of the nearly $400million in military aid, the desire for a phony investigation.
Being loyal to their oath to support and defend the Constitution [Not to support and defend a criminal President!!] they revealed the illegal plot to the public, and asked us to hold President Trump accountable for his crimes! I can’t believe that all these Republicans don’t even recall taking that oath. When I took the oath to protect and defend the Constitution AS A TEENAGER it meant more to me that it means to Republican MEMBERS of CONGRESS!!!!!
Hell, 50 years later it means more to me that it does to Gym Jordan, the fast talking, incoherent defender of the predatory OSU wrestling team doctor and believer in the President’s inalienable right to bribe other nations to get what Trump wants and needs.
I’m done with this for now. The Bribe is what it is, and Trump can’t wriggle out of his criminal problem this time!!!
I believe he does not care if his actions are legal/illegal.
I also believe that he is 100% certain that the President is above the law and there is no-one on the planet who can call him out for what he does. We are soon to find out whether or not he is true in this assumption
133.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@danielx: And what bugs me about that is that he doesn’t understand:
the concept of “the government’s money” as distinct from “his money”,
the concept that foreign policy is supposed to serve US interests,
the concept that there’s even such a thing as “US interests”
He’d just look at you blankly if you tried to explain any of these things to him and wait for your mouth to stop moving.
(iPhone offered me this emoji for “blankly” ? so why waste it)
134.
ola azul
Seems, to me, like extortion is the verb and bribery is the direct object (and Trump is, course, the unfound noun beclowned).
Not wedded to this formulation and think the term “bribery” is more punchy and visceral and effective for the hoi polloi than “extortion”. I will happly defer to whatever fucking works.
But, to the extent that words matter, my impression (happy to be corrected; you’re the lawyer) is that Trump was extorting Ukraine by means of a bribe. (Carrot/stick.) Is this wrong?
ETA, since this post took a half-hour (not to write, but to post), that if it double-posts, lo siento. Still getting my sea-legs.
135.
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker: Just learned a new trick from Cheryl (if it works) — in the Classic Edit mode, one uses ‘link tweet’ instead of ’embed tweet’ to get the full graphic tweet to appear.
No, it doesn’t make sense to me, either, but I’ve got a test post scheduled for later this morning, if you wanna look at the dashboard.
And since I’m up way past my bedtime, g’night until this evening!
136.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Well that was a bizarre bug on the iPhone (Safari, iPhone 8, iOS 12.4)
hit the Reply button so I was working in a popup window.
wrote a longish comment that went longer than one screen.
tried to scroll down to “Post” button or up to the “X”. Couldn’t do either. Scrolling was moving the text behind the popup, the popup itself was immovable.
selected some text, chose Select All and then Copy. That worked, caused me to scroll to the top of the popup where I could see the X.
closed the popup, which took half a dozen attempts or maybe it was just slow to respond.
from the main window I could scroll to the Send button and post the comment.
137.
Soprano2
I heard Jonathan Turley on On Point yesterday. He believes the focus on bribery is a mistake, and that they should broaden the charges. Since he seems to like Trump, the only reason I can think of for this is to confuse the public so they don’t understand what’s happening. He thinks they should drag in all the Mueller Report stuff. While I wish they could do that (there could be 50 Articles of Impeachment as far as I’m concerned!), I think it would confuse the public and reduce support for impeachment and removal. Oh, and it’s my first comment on the new site – everything looks great!
138.
Avalune
@Leto: Those things weren’t written in anything much resembling English anyway…
Congress does not give anything to anyone except themselves. Congress allocates money. So, the money you think was given by Congress was not. The executive had full control over it (as we see). So your attempt to make this non-bribery (Trump offers thing of value he Does Not control) falls on the rocks of the realities of our constitutional system. If Trump had no control to give Ukraine the cash and credits. Then he is not guilty of anything. Even extortion. By your read, his only crime is not following the will of the Congressional appropriation quick enough. Hardly impeachable.
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: it’s illegal to ignore a flight attendant’s direction in almost every country that has an airline. But to avoid a confrontation they’ll usually just move you to a different seat. So ask for that, even if you have to return to yours for landing. There’s usually a couple of empty seats reserved for the crew even on full flights.
It’s still extortion. If Zelensky did not perform the required actions, the authorized/approved military aid that Ukraine was due would not be forthcoming, and Ukraine would suffer harm. It’s not really any different from the Vercotti brothers shaking down the British Army base (“Nice base you got here colonel, be a shame if anything happened to it.”)
Were it bribery, and Zelensky refused, he and Ukraine would suffer no ill effects, as with bribery in the “regular” world. [ETA: I don’t consider “Not having a few extra bucks in your pocket” to be “suffering ill effects.”]
As I said earlier: protection racket vs payola. “Protection rackets” are not considered bribery, as far as I know.
Be that as it may, arguing about this endlessly is probably not the best use of our time.
145.
chopper
To now pick your nuts right back.
well, that’s a great image to wake up with.
146.
Leto
@Avalune: No they weren’t, and I’m glad I never have to see another one in my life!
@SFAW: I think one of Schiff’s points is that what the Constitution calls bribery includes what we today call extortion. Fucking Trump over with original intent would be the good kind of irony, a concept previously believed to lie riddled with bullets in a shallow grave.
Using “bribery” is the play because that word is specifically in the impeachment provision.
Insisting on the word “extortion” will be the GOP talking point in early December.
152.
O. Felix Culpa
@Cheryl Rofer: Apparently Adam does too. It’s up now.
Using “bribery” is the play because that word is specifically in the impeachment provision.
Yeah, I noted that in my first [sic] comment.
As I said: I’m OK either way. And, I confess, I did not know that extortion was included in the definition of bribery back then, so thanks for edumacating me.
I had also heard the “Misdemeanors” included crimes which we now call felonies (the implication being that “Felonies” was not in the common parlance in the 1780s), but I don’t recall when/where I read that, nor do I know if it’s true.
157.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Were it bribery, and Zelensky refused, he and Ukraine would suffer no ill effects, as with bribery in the “regular” world.
If the lack of paying a bribe never had any real world ill effects no bribes would ever be paid.
“Oh, you want me to sign off on this electrical inspection so you can start hanging drywall? Show me the color of your green. Don’t? And it will be a loooonnnnngggg time before you can button up your shirt much less this job.”
Not that they ever say it in just quite such blatant terms, but one knows what is being said.
158.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: My point was that you seemed to be replying to her but your reply didn’t include her nym, so it looked like a bare comment. That’s all.
An electrician offering a bribe to an inspector to “look the other way” (bribery) is different from an inspector shaking down an electrician. If the inspector refuses the bribe, (theoretically) no harm will come to him/her; if the electrician refuses the inspector’s extortion, he/she will suffer (e.g., “Hmmm, I need you to re-do all the wiring, because I didn’t see you do it, so I don’t know if you did it per Code”)
And arguing with a lawyer is particularly pointless, as they are constitutionally incapable of being wrong.
I know you’re joking, but I don’t feel that way about Imma. Yes, I’m serious.
But there ARE some lawyers I’ve encountered who are just as you describe.
162.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: It’s bribery either way. One is bribing, the other is soliciting a bribe. You can call it extortion but we’re back to the tomato/tomahto argument.
163.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: “High crimes and misdemeanors” was/is a legal term of art referring to bad behavior by public officials.*
*During the Clinton impeachment, I read every law review article that existed on impeachment. Clerking at a federal court get me free access to every nook and cranny of Westlaw.
164.
Jeffro
@hueyplong: “Insisting on the word ‘extortion’ will be the new GOP talking point come December”
Absolutely. With straight faces, too.
I have a feeling Nancy Smash and Adam Schiff will help the country see through their ‘goalpost tornado’. Not the die-hard Faux-ites, but everyone else.
165.
Miss Bianca
@germy: You know, I don’t love AOC, but I do deeply appreciate her way with a sick burn.
Your bad Will Rogers imitation can be a bit annoying when you take it over the top, but I have skimmed your comments since before your changed your posting name, and I never saw anything that would justify banning you- especially without notification.
On occasion, when you forgot to be folksy & amusing, your comments have been interesting and/or entertaining- nothing particularly objectionable.
I suspect that your inability to post resulted from a fight between your computer and the blog subsequent to some attempt to fix a problem on the blog, not a deliberate decision to block you.
Don’t have to take everything personally on the internet!
168.
RedDirtGirl
That’s why I made my button:
PELOSI
2019
169.
Barbara
@germy: 18 usc 1349. Look it up. When she served as Thomas’s law clerk you can bet she didn’t blink at sending people away for decades for so called inchoate offenses. That’s the the term for things like conspiracy and attempts.
170.
Felanius Kootea
Testing tweet embed for non front pagers on dead thread following instructions to remove script code:
Witness intimidation is a crime, no matter who does it. Full stop.— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) November 15, 2019
171.
brantl
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!! TheRUMP was EXTORTING the Ukrainians, not bribing them. If someone thinks the Ukrainians suggested this, then that is BRIBERY, otherwise this is EXTORTION. Why lawyers haven’t shitcanned this phraseology as soon as it was used, is beyond me.
172.
StringOnAStick
@ola azul: glad to see you again. Did that movie idea go forward?
Bruce K
Funny cartoon, but it’s got it backwards: Trump wasn’t bribing Ukraine, he was demanding a bribe from Ukraine (to wit, the public smearing of Biden on CNN) in exchange for not withholding the funds he was legally obligated to release.
Of course, the Wingnut Wurlitzer is now screaming that it’s only “attempted” bribery, as though the fact that the scheme fell through somehow drops it out of the scope of impeachable abuse of power.
hells littlest angel
It can not be said often enough: Nancy Pelosi is fucking brilliant. I would love to see her as president for a few months — if for no other reason than to put things in order for the Warren or Harris administration that would follow her.
John Revolta
Weapons-grade snark here. Nancy Smash is kicking ass and taking names.
ChicagoPat
While I love that she’s stepping up the rhetoric, what he did was extortion. You bribe someone of equal or greater standing, you extort someone with less power than you. Ukraine needed our help and protection, Trump threatened to withhold it unless they gave something of personal, political value.
Patricia Kayden
Democrats aren’t playing. Let’s see if the useless mainstream media whines about a lack of pizzazz in today’s hearing.
NotMax
Awful lot of raw code showing in the post. Something ain’t kosher.
Baud
@John Revolta: That may be the most perfect things she’s ever said. Very awesome.
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: They’re still working out bugs for embedded code, specifically Twitter and video, I think. Looks like they’ve got images squared away, so that’s progress!
Patricia Kayden
So we can’t embed tweets right now, I assume?
terben
@Bruce K:
From the Legal Information Institute webpage
Bribery
Definition
Corrupt solicitation, acceptance, or transfer of value in exchange for official action.
Overview
Bribery refers to the offering, giving, soliciting, or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing the actions of an individual holding a public or legal duty. This type of action results in matters that should be handled objectively being handled in a manner best suiting the private interests of the decision maker. Bribery constitutes a crime and both the offeror and the recipient can be criminally charged.
Proof of bribery requires demonstrating a “quid pro quo” relationship in which the recipient directly alters behavior in exchange for the gift. Because the relationship does not occur directly enough, campaign donations from corporations or individuals to political candidates do not constitute bribery. Another element of proving bribery includes proving intent to influence the discharging of another’s official duties. Some statutes also require proof that both parties understand and agree to the arrangement. Attempts to bribe exist at common law and under the Model Penal Code, and often, the punishment for attempted bribery and completed bribery are identical. Solicitation of a bribe also constitutes a crime and is completed regardless of whether the solicitation results in the receipt of a valuable gift. Economists consider bribery to negatively impact economic growth because it encouraged rent seeking behavior. Rent seeking behavior refers to an individual’s or corporation’s attempt to illicitly influence the open market in order to provide that individual or corporation with a disproportionate amount of wealth. Such an environment results in a sub-optimal allocation of resources, which results in depressed economic growth.
Violators may be prosecuted under federal statute 18 U.S.C. 201 – Bribery.
Betty Cracker
@Patricia Kayden: I’m unable to even copy and paste the content of a tweet, let alone embed the code. That’s a new thing.
Frankensteinbeck
@John Revolta:
The both funny and sad thing is that he thinks he has. His responses make it blatantly clear that he thinks the ‘transcript’, rather than a confession, vindicates him completely and makes him look awesome. It’s everyone around him who realizes what a clusterfuck he’s created by releasing it.
lashon harumph
@ChicagoPat: How long before someone says Pelosi is stupid for calling it bribery instead of extortion and since extortion isn’t in the Constitution no impeachment?
Bruce K
@ChicagoPat: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, let’s lock the whole gang up. But Trump was essentially soliciting a bribe through extortionate means – demanding something of value (an accusation by Zelensky against Biden broadcast on CNN) in exchange for the performance of his duty (releasing the Congressionally allocated funds).
And calling it bribery has additional power because that’s explicit constitutional grounds for impeachment under Article 2, Section 4. Prove that to the American people to a moral certainty, and the Senate GOP is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Baud
@Bruce K:
Getting a blow job isn’t listed in the Constitution. Didn’t stop anyone.
Betty Cracker
Testing:
ETA: By golly, it worked!
Quinerly
Good morning from Poco and his chauffeur!
Bruce K
@terben: I checked the law, and 18 USC 201 (b)(1)(A) seems to apply, in that Trump demanded something of value in exchange for being influenced in the performance of an official act (in this case, to release the unlawful hold on the Ukraine aid). Under that statute, it appears that you can be convicted of bribery even if the person you’re demanding the bribe from tells you to go pound sand and goes directly to the authorities. (Analysis here via New York Magazine.)
Bruce K
@Baud: Yeah, but the same schmendricks that tried to sweep that fellatio under the “other high crimes and misdemeanors” clause (yeah, yeah, it was the lying about it that was grounds for impeachment; pull the other one, it’s got bells on) are trying to argue that what Trump did isn’t impeachable, and since they’re already reduced to arguing that attempted bribery doesn’t count on Day 2 of the public hearings, I’m starting to get the impression that they might be in a little bit of trouble…
OzarkHillbilly
I wonder how long it will take me to get used to the new commenting format.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: That comes under “High Crimes”.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone ???
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
Glad you found that, B C.
rikyrah
Did nobody post that clip of Nancy Smash interrupting her own answer at her press briefing to actually define the word for Dolt45 that she called him?
It was absolutely HILARIOUS????
rikyrah
I think using bribe and extortion is a smart move by the Democrats???
Shantanu Saha
“Actually, it’s not bribery, it’s extortion. Since extortion is not mentioned in the constitution, it’s not impeachable.”
— Republican line of argument by next week.
rikyrah
Yes????
Dear FrontPagers,
Please post this video from this post from:
@John Revolta:
rikyrah
@Quinerly:
Morning to Poco and his chauffeur
??
Betty Cracker
Here’s a clip (if it works):
NotMax
Return to sender.
germy
germy
OzarkHillbilly
Want to spend 19 hrs and 19 minutes cooped up with 300 irritable, bored to tears, sleep deprived, underfed, over stressed people? Qantas has a flight for you.
Raven
Where you been salt?
NotMax
@OzarkHillbilly
There was an informative piece last month about being aboard a similar nonstop test flight from New York to Sydney. Ah, here it is.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: There was absolutely no evidence he was high at the time.
@rikyrah: Good morning.
JWR
@ola azul: Hey, how ya doin’? I was thinking about your insightful comments just the other day. and was about to ask if you’d been around, but never did, and here you are. Stick around if yer able.
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax: I personally, can not imagine why anybody would knowingly inflict such heinous torture upon themselves. Madrid to Miami made me suicidal.
ola azul
@Raven:
Funny you should ask. Was wondering if i’d haveta answer this question and wasn’t sure how I’d respond if did.
But first, lemme say: Sorry I missed your recounting of the rig trip in real time (saw pics; yellowfins is shit-kicker tough! nice work! the feed looked delish). Always enjoy your adventures!
Will just say: Was, without warning and not asked, to, ahem, go onna blog exile. Not my blog, not my say. Don’t know who, don’t know why, but there it is.
But apparently there’sa day of jubilee with the new design where I can post again (for now!; this were sort’va test to see if I could after a month of not being able to).
Looked like your and your crew hadda helluva fine trip.
OzarkHillbilly
Baud, that all depends on which definition of “high” one is using. The Oval Office is definitely higher than the basement.
(for some reason the reply button on your comment is missing, everybody else’s has one)
Raven
Try Tan Son Nhut to Guam, sit on the runway with your duffle baf for three hours, get on a 141 and fly to Travis seated backwards freezing your ass off and then sit on a concrete floor for 3 days because in Oakland because THEY were not ready for some many ETS’ing at the same time!
Raven
@ola azul: Hmmm, no likey. The trip was fun and the craft was amazing. We would have liked to have caught more but that’s fishin.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: Fuck that shit. I probably would of gone postal.
WereBear
And here’s my info still there from last night. ?
Baud
@Raven: So you fly United Economy class too.
Raven
@OzarkHillbilly: There were some grunts right out of the bush who were close but you didn’t want to fuck that up when you were back in the world! That’s why the “last chance” barrel was full of dope!
Gin & Tonic
@OzarkHillbilly: I have done LAX-MEL, about 15.5 hours. If you approach it with the right frame of mind, it’s manageable. If you board saying to yourself “this will be torture” then it probably will. But the Pacific is big, and there’s really no short way across.
Raven
@Baud: We flew commercial to Guam and then got on a C-141. Sept 1969 was the start of the pullout and they weren’t ready.
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: longest non-stop I ever took was Chicago to Delhi (and back two weeks later). Going was about 15 hours because of the jet stream, back was more like 17 hours. IIRC. But it was Air India, so the food was good and the drinks plentiful.
Raven
@Gin & Tonic: we flew Saigon to Darwin. They sprayed the plane, took our tobacco and ushered us into a “bar”. We all got a couple of brews and then were ushered back on the plane. We had no clue how long the flight to Sydney was!!!
germy
eclare
@OzarkHillbilly: Saw that, my idea of hell.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: I’ll bet it was full of dope.
@Gin & Tonic: Hence, I will never fly across the Pacific. I need breaks. I have to able to get up and walk. My hips demand it. My knees demand it. My sanity demands it.
scribbler
@ola azul:
I for one am sorry to hear you were exiled, and glad you are back. I have missed your insightful and evocative posts. I know your style can be different, but surely there should be room allowed to color outside the lines, when the colors are so interesting.
JPL
Wow, I just read the late blogs and discovered that we have commenting rules. Well let me say f.k that.
satby
@eclare: having flown to Asia from Chicago three times now, I ‘m torn between just getting there and having a stopover to get off the plane and really walk around. Because the stopovers end up making it almost 24 straight hours of travel. Though you do get little samples of countries you haven’t been to yet, in my case China and Japan.
ola azul
@JWR:
Replies still a ill hinky, but:
Thanks. Sincerely. Very kind of you to say.
Not my call, course, but will if can. Kinda look at this place as a largely good-willed, kind buncha fellow travelers. Will if can.
Raven
Would you take me by the hand!
JPL
@Raven: If one reads your comments at 42 and 43 without context, it tells a different story.
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: in flights that long they’re pretty liberal about letting you get up and move around the cabin, so lots of people walk around. Which is crazy-making in a different way.
JPL
@ola azul: Welcome back
Baud
@JPL: I saw that and said to myself, JPL’s days here and numbered.
Baud
Where is Suzanne?
eclare
@satby: I definitely see your point. When I flew back from Greece years ago, it took 24 hours from when I started to walk into my apartment. Three aircraft changes. But I also worry about things like blood clots, so I was glad to be able to walk around some, even if it was in an airport.
Raven
Don’t mean nuthin!
Amir Khalid
@Shantanu Saha:
It’s my understanding that impeachment is a political process, not a criminal one: POTUS can be impeached (and removed from office) for pretty much anything that in Congress’ judgement makes him unfit to continue in office — not necessarily an actual crime.
I think the fact that he’s a venal doodyhead by itself makes him unfit to continue in office. But I can’t see the House putting that in the articles of impeachment, even though the Republican party doesn’t dispute it.
satby
@eclare: I just try to roll with whatever and remember that my ancestors had to travel over weeks in a tiny, crowded ship where many died along the route to go roughly the same distance. And that being able to travel for leisure at all is a privilege.
We really live in amazing times, to be able to go across the globe in hours, grueling though it can be.
JWR
Well here’s hoping. ;)
Patricia Kayden
@Betty Cracker: Ok. Thanks
Patricia Kayden
How did you do that, Betty?
debbie
@Patricia Kayden:
IKR? Republicans can’t cope with the fact that Dems are pushing back. Hence Jordan’s sputtering, Kennedy’s babbling, etc.
OzarkHillbilly
Blech. Been there. Done that. It’s like getting a little sip of water after being denied any for 3 days.
Patricia Kayden
@debbie: Republicans aren’t helping their cause. And the more witnesses that testify publicly, the more evidence against Trump comes out. Trump is going to be impeached.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t think that’s worse than KAC’s assertion that this is all a nothingburger because Ukraine got the aid (eventually) and Zelensky didn’t have to make a public statement about investigating the Bidens. “It didn’t happen, so no foul.”
debbie
Huh, I edited, but it didn’t take and the editing bar totally disappeared.
Amir Khalid
@OzarkHillbilly:
I once spent a whole day on a plane journey to the US. I boarded a plane in KL on a Monday morning, and when I landed in LA it was still only Monday afternoon. Never again.
germy
OzarkHillbilly
@germy: Beautiful.
debbie
@germy:
Please share how you’re embedding tweets without getting blocked.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
First “blech” I’ve seen since the site change. Now I feel “at home.”
Unfortunately, in my case, the “Home” is like one of those named “Happy Valley” or “Shady Acres” — one where the “guests” stumble around in a fog, because we’re heavily medicated
Patricia Kayden
@germy: germy, how were you able to embed a tweet? Thanks in advance.
SFAW
@germy:
Damn, she’s good.
ETA: In the replies, someone posted Rubin’s alleged Wikipedia page, noting that he died yesterday, “Murdered on Twitter by Congresswoman.”
Also, one of his moron replies said that was the wittiest thing she’s ever said. He doesn’t pay much attention, or is too stupid to figure things out on his own.
ola azul
@scribbler:
Lot harder to reply w/confidence it’s gonna make good till bugs is worked out (if it don’t scan right, it prolly ain’t!), but:
Appreciative of your kind encouragement. Specially just washing over the transom how it done. I realize I ain’t ever’one’s cuppa gumbo and that’s OK. But: I’d like to think, naif that I am, that it’s my prerogative to express myself how I choose.
Patricia Kayden
The only reason that the White House releases the aid is because they found out about the whistleblower complaint. That’s it.
germy
I paste the imbedded tweet while in “text” mode, then delete the last line of code at the bottom of the tweet.
(appears after “blockquote”)
It’s the code that gets you blocked.
Baud
@germy: I assume Rubin’s next tweet will be about how he’s being blacklisted by AOC.
Betty Cracker
@germy: Exactly right.
Patricia Kayden
Baud
@Patricia Kayden:
I actually think there was another reason. The fiscal year was ending which meant they had to put up or shut up publicly about whthwhe they were going to withhold aid.
JWR
But, but, Amy Walter (PBS) said hearings on live TV wouldn’t matter! // ;)
Baud
@Baud:
whthwhe = whether
Patricia Kayden
@Baud:
That could be it too.
germy
Was she laughing when she said it? It’s usually a big chucklefest over at the PBS News Hour
Baud
@JWR: It may not matter to Republicans which are the only people they care about.
trnc
@ChicagoPat:
It’s both.
https://www.unodc.org/e4j/en/organized-crime/module-4/key-issues/bribery-versus-extortion.html
debbie
It woiks!
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: My first comment after the site change said something like “Blech. I hate the new web site.” Not true but it had to be said. That was in some mid afternoon Mister Mix post. Then I scrolled down the blog looking at all the posts I was denied access to all day long that apparently everybody else had been conversing on all day and I wondered if somebody was trying to tell me something.
HEY GUYS? IF YOUR LISTENING, I DON’T TAKE HINTS.
JPL
Ozark, A few of us wondered what happened to you, but just a few of us.
debit
@OzarkHillbilly:
You’re on double secret probation.
Jeffro
Hey speaking of the Evil Ice Queen, here is a great peek-behind-the-curtain about how she (and really all the big names at Faux) twists the truth and manipulates their viewers:
Sneering Through Impeachment:
zhena gogolia
Yovanovitch today? Oh, God, I’ll get nothing done.
Jeffro
.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
That’s as may be. What I said was that it’s the first one I saw since the changeover.
danielx
This.
From what I can tell, Trump really and truly doesn’t see anything wrong with his actions. To the extent he’s thought about it (which admittedly wouldn’t be long, like thirty seconds), he felt he was using leverage – normal business tactic! For him, that is. It’s only, like, everyone else who sees this as criminal. For him, it was business as usual and normal behavior – as in Donald Trump doing whatever necessary to get what Donald Trump wants. Since rules that apply to everyone else don’t apply to him….
It would be funny if it wasn’t so frightening.
SFAW
@Jeffro:
I couldn’t agree more
Immanentize
And most are former slave states!
Sab
@OzarkHillbilly: He has to punch the reply button twice on the new site. He maybe doesn’t know that yet.
OzarkHillbilly
@Jeffro: Well said.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Ah kin reed evens ifn’s Ah cin’t rite.
SFAW
@Jeffro:
And there is nothing Hannity, Carlson, or Ingraham could do to make their zombie moron watchers turn away from them.
Well, maybe if they came out and said “Trump’s racist policies are hurting America.” And maybe “black/brown people deserve the same rights and privileges that white people take for granted.”
Immanentize
This whole bribery versus extortion thing is dumb.
Trump offered military aid for a public statement on CNN (take that libtards) that there was a serious investigation about Biden, son and father.
Trump offered a personal White House visit for a public statement on CNN (take that libtards) that there was a serious investigation about Biden, son and father.
That was a bribe. The President of Ukraine would not have done it without the inducement(s). And he would be doing it in his official capacity as President of Ukraine, not as TV comic or private citizen.
Bribes. Things of value offered to induce an official to do something they wouldn’t otherwise do.
See, foreign corrupt practices act.
Sab
It may be just me, but in that cartoon, that donkey looks more like a wolf or a coyote than a donkey. Donkeys have big faces or muzzles. Wolves or coyotes have pointy thin snouts.
JWR
Actually, no. She was serious. But she also analyzes polls in the most Republican friendly way. I like spotting her biases in real time. Or, what @Baud said.
And yes, ashamed to say that I hate watch PBS NewsHour political stuff, but only so you don’t have to. ;)
Baud
@Jeffro: I think your comment violates Cole’s new rules of decorum.
SFAW
@Immanentize:
I disagree re: whether it’s a bribe. He was not offering military aid in exchange for a statement; that had already been passed by Congress. He was threatening to withhold the already-authorized military aid if Zelensky did not make a very public statement about Biden.
It’s kind of like a protection racket (extortion) vs. payola (bribery).
That being said: I’m OK with use of the word “Bribery,” primarily because of the “Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and misdemeanors” clause. Basically, I want to reduce to zero (if possible) the number of loopholes Party of Traitors can use. [The “Demon-rats are talking about extortion, but that word doesn’t appear in …” bullshit that they’re already trying.]
zhena gogolia
I spent an hour yesterday explaining the Constitution, checks and balances, and impeachment to a local (non-academic) friend yesterday. Our education system is seriously f–ed up. They don’t teach any of this stuff.
Leto
@Immanentize: It’s all of that. He bribes, extorts, corrupts everything… as always it’s distressing that we have to literally dumb everything down to the level of an infant to try to make people understand wtf is going on. Similar to when I was writing performance reports and was told, “Don’t use a $10 word when a nickle will do”. That always pissed me off because maybe that $10 word was the best fit, and I shouldn’t have to dumb down my language because you’re a mouth breathing idiot.
zhena gogolia
In general, I’m getting used to the new site, but I hate these buttons on the side, especially the left. It gets in my way. I don’t even know what it’s for.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize:
To be accurate, Counselor, Trump did not offer military aid. Trump suggested that the legally appropriated aid would continue to be (illegally?) held up until Zelensky “did him a favor.”
ETA: It appears that, for once, SFAW is quicker on the keyboard than I am.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: I’ve had similar experiences. That was part of my high school graduation requirements (civics class), but I’m beginning to suspect that my school was 1) unique and 2) I was the only one awake. Granted, I’ve read up about it more on my own but still…
Ceci n est pas mon nym
So all you experienced long-haul air travelers, what’s your approach when the person in front of you reclines so far back you can’t eat your meal or see your movie, and they ignore requests from you and the flight attendants?
About the bribery / extortion argument, some things I’ve read said a federal crime was committed as soon as he ordered OMB to hold the funds.
But I guess then they’d raise the defense that the constitution says “misdemeanors”, not “felonies”.
OzarkHillbilly
As @Bruce K: so elegantly stated, “You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, let’s lock the whole gang up.”
raven
To go back to the previous post.
pinacacci
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned because sadly am short on time this AM, have to get to work, but driving home last night listened to NPR and was DELIGHTED to hear whoever was interviewing Gym Jordan give him lots of pushback. ON NPR!! Not used to hearing it. He was reduced by the end to the hyper squirrel Gish gallop someone memorably described before…it was surreal and wonderful. Might have been Audie Cornish and possibly a second interviewer. If NPR is finally doing actual interviews instead of letting them speechify, we may have crossed the event horizon.
chopper
they’re really gonna go with “they don’t give out nobel prizes for attempted chemistry”, aren’t they.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: I think you still have to click the “Reply” button twice to get the @Nym into your reply.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: I’m sure what that means as far as the question zhena asked?
SFAW
@pinacacci:
As Spenser once said: “Isn’t it pretty to think so?”
Note to pedants: Yes, I know it was not a Parker original.
chopper
@chopper:
dang, germy got there first.
SFAW
@chopper:
To which one responds: “No, but they DO lock people up for attempted murder, attempted robbery, attempted fraud, etc.”
J R in WV
@Bruce K:
You are plain old wrong. The bribe was $400,000,000 worth of military equipment. The bribe was intended to produce the creation of a phony investigation of the Biden’s which would have produced fake dirt for Trump to use in his Presidential campaign.
But Trump fuqed up twice… He didn’t know the new Ukraine president was an honest reformer — even though he was in the middle of an existential crisis, being attacked by the Russian miiltary — the President was not willing to conduct a phony investigation and produce fake accusations.
He also fuqed up by not being to maintain operational security in his own White House… honest members of the federal government came to know about the bribery plot, the withholding of the nearly $400million in military aid, the desire for a phony investigation.
Being loyal to their oath to support and defend the Constitution [Not to support and defend a criminal President!!] they revealed the illegal plot to the public, and asked us to hold President Trump accountable for his crimes! I can’t believe that all these Republicans don’t even recall taking that oath. When I took the oath to protect and defend the Constitution AS A TEENAGER it meant more to me that it means to Republican MEMBERS of CONGRESS!!!!!
Hell, 50 years later it means more to me that it does to Gym Jordan, the fast talking, incoherent defender of the predatory OSU wrestling team doctor and believer in the President’s inalienable right to bribe other nations to get what Trump wants and needs.
I’m done with this for now. The Bribe is what it is, and Trump can’t wriggle out of his criminal problem this time!!!
TS (the original)
@danielx:
I believe he does not care if his actions are legal/illegal.
I also believe that he is 100% certain that the President is above the law and there is no-one on the planet who can call him out for what he does. We are soon to find out whether or not he is true in this assumption
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@danielx: And what bugs me about that is that he doesn’t understand:
He’d just look at you blankly if you tried to explain any of these things to him and wait for your mouth to stop moving.
(iPhone offered me this emoji for “blankly” ? so why waste it)
ola azul
Seems, to me, like extortion is the verb and bribery is the direct object (and Trump is, course, the unfound noun beclowned).
Not wedded to this formulation and think the term “bribery” is more punchy and visceral and effective for the hoi polloi than “extortion”. I will happly defer to whatever fucking works.
But, to the extent that words matter, my impression (happy to be corrected; you’re the lawyer) is that Trump was extorting Ukraine by means of a bribe. (Carrot/stick.) Is this wrong?
ETA, since this post took a half-hour (not to write, but to post), that if it double-posts, lo siento. Still getting my sea-legs.
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker: Just learned a new trick from Cheryl (if it works) — in the Classic Edit mode, one uses ‘link tweet’ instead of ’embed tweet’ to get the full graphic tweet to appear.
No, it doesn’t make sense to me, either, but I’ve got a test post scheduled for later this morning, if you wanna look at the dashboard.
And since I’m up way past my bedtime, g’night until this evening!
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Well that was a bizarre bug on the iPhone (Safari, iPhone 8, iOS 12.4)
Soprano2
I heard Jonathan Turley on On Point yesterday. He believes the focus on bribery is a mistake, and that they should broaden the charges. Since he seems to like Trump, the only reason I can think of for this is to confuse the public so they don’t understand what’s happening. He thinks they should drag in all the Mueller Report stuff. While I wish they could do that (there could be 50 Articles of Impeachment as far as I’m concerned!), I think it would confuse the public and reduce support for impeachment and removal. Oh, and it’s my first comment on the new site – everything looks great!
Avalune
@Leto: Those things weren’t written in anything much resembling English anyway…
Immanentize
@SFAW:
@Gin & Tonic:
To now pick your nuts right back.
Congress does not give anything to anyone except themselves. Congress allocates money. So, the money you think was given by Congress was not. The executive had full control over it (as we see). So your attempt to make this non-bribery (Trump offers thing of value he Does Not control) falls on the rocks of the realities of our constitutional system. If Trump had no control to give Ukraine the cash and credits. Then he is not guilty of anything. Even extortion. By your read, his only crime is not following the will of the Congressional appropriation quick enough. Hardly impeachable.
satby
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: it’s illegal to ignore a flight attendant’s direction in almost every country that has an airline. But to avoid a confrontation they’ll usually just move you to a different seat. So ask for that, even if you have to return to yours for landing. There’s usually a couple of empty seats reserved for the crew even on full flights.
Baud
@Soprano2:
The other thing it does is provide a talking point blaming Dems when Senate Republicans vote to aquit Trump. “If only D’s had followed my advice….”
SFAW
@Gin & Tonic:
That’s only because you were distracted by … stuff.
hueyplong
Eight of the ten states had stars on the Confederate flag and the other two weren’t states yet.
SFAW
@Immanentize:
It’s still extortion. If Zelensky did not perform the required actions, the authorized/approved military aid that Ukraine was due would not be forthcoming, and Ukraine would suffer harm. It’s not really any different from the Vercotti brothers shaking down the British Army base (“Nice base you got here colonel, be a shame if anything happened to it.”)
Were it bribery, and Zelensky refused, he and Ukraine would suffer no ill effects, as with bribery in the “regular” world. [ETA: I don’t consider “Not having a few extra bucks in your pocket” to be “suffering ill effects.”]
As I said earlier: protection racket vs payola. “Protection rackets” are not considered bribery, as far as I know.
Be that as it may, arguing about this endlessly is probably not the best use of our time.
chopper
well, that’s a great image to wake up with.
Leto
@Avalune: No they weren’t, and I’m glad I never have to see another one in my life!
O. Felix Culpa
@SFAW:
For shame! What kind of jackal are you? Endless arguing is what we live for.
Cheryl Rofer
I’ve got a livestream post scheduled for 9 am Eastern of Marie Yovanovitch’s testimony.
Immanentize
@chopper: I’m sure i typed “nits” but spell check and a big hurry this morning….
But the typo works too.
O. Felix Culpa
Yes it does. :)
hueyplong
@SFAW: I think one of Schiff’s points is that what the Constitution calls bribery includes what we today call extortion. Fucking Trump over with original intent would be the good kind of irony, a concept previously believed to lie riddled with bullets in a shallow grave.
Using “bribery” is the play because that word is specifically in the impeachment provision.
Insisting on the word “extortion” will be the GOP talking point in early December.
O. Felix Culpa
@Cheryl Rofer: Apparently Adam does too. It’s up now.
LivingInExile
@ola azul: Good to see you back.
SFAW
@O. Felix Culpa:
No we don’t!
H.E.Wolf
@JWR: But, but, Amy Walter (PBS) said hearings on live TV wouldn’t matter! // ;)
Bless her heart, she was only 4 years old when the Watergate hearings started in the Senate. Not many TV sets in nursery school back then. ;)
SFAW
@hueyplong:
Yeah, I noted that in my first [sic] comment.
As I said: I’m OK either way. And, I confess, I did not know that extortion was included in the definition of bribery back then, so thanks for edumacating me.
I had also heard the “Misdemeanors” included crimes which we now call felonies (the implication being that “Felonies” was not in the common parlance in the 1780s), but I don’t recall when/where I read that, nor do I know if it’s true.
OzarkHillbilly
If the lack of paying a bribe never had any real world ill effects no bribes would ever be paid.
“Oh, you want me to sign off on this electrical inspection so you can start hanging drywall? Show me the color of your green. Don’t? And it will be a loooonnnnngggg time before you can button up your shirt much less this job.”
Not that they ever say it in just quite such blatant terms, but one knows what is being said.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: My point was that you seemed to be replying to her but your reply didn’t include her nym, so it looked like a bare comment. That’s all.
Gin & Tonic
@SFAW:
And arguing with a lawyer is particularly pointless, as they are constitutionally incapable of being wrong.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
An electrician offering a bribe to an inspector to “look the other way” (bribery) is different from an inspector shaking down an electrician. If the inspector refuses the bribe, (theoretically) no harm will come to him/her; if the electrician refuses the inspector’s extortion, he/she will suffer (e.g., “Hmmm, I need you to re-do all the wiring, because I didn’t see you do it, so I don’t know if you did it per Code”)
SFAW
@Gin & Tonic:
I know you’re joking, but I don’t feel that way about Imma. Yes, I’m serious.
But there ARE some lawyers I’ve encountered who are just as you describe.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: It’s bribery either way. One is bribing, the other is soliciting a bribe. You can call it extortion but we’re back to the tomato/tomahto argument.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: “High crimes and misdemeanors” was/is a legal term of art referring to bad behavior by public officials.*
*During the Clinton impeachment, I read every law review article that existed on impeachment. Clerking at a federal court get me free access to every nook and cranny of Westlaw.
Jeffro
@hueyplong: “Insisting on the word ‘extortion’ will be the new GOP talking point come December”
Absolutely. With straight faces, too.
I have a feeling Nancy Smash and Adam Schiff will help the country see through their ‘goalpost tornado’. Not the die-hard Faux-ites, but everyone else.
Miss Bianca
@germy: You know, I don’t love AOC, but I do deeply appreciate her way with a sick burn.
O. Felix Culpa
@SFAW: Yes we do!
Niemand
Ola pal,
Your bad Will Rogers imitation can be a bit annoying when you take it over the top, but I have skimmed your comments since before your changed your posting name, and I never saw anything that would justify banning you- especially without notification.
On occasion, when you forgot to be folksy & amusing, your comments have been interesting and/or entertaining- nothing particularly objectionable.
I suspect that your inability to post resulted from a fight between your computer and the blog subsequent to some attempt to fix a problem on the blog, not a deliberate decision to block you.
Don’t have to take everything personally on the internet!
RedDirtGirl
That’s why I made my button:
PELOSI
2019
Barbara
@germy: 18 usc 1349. Look it up. When she served as Thomas’s law clerk you can bet she didn’t blink at sending people away for decades for so called inchoate offenses. That’s the the term for things like conspiracy and attempts.
Felanius Kootea
Testing tweet embed for non front pagers on dead thread following instructions to remove script code:
brantl
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!! TheRUMP was EXTORTING the Ukrainians, not bribing them. If someone thinks the Ukrainians suggested this, then that is BRIBERY, otherwise this is EXTORTION. Why lawyers haven’t shitcanned this phraseology as soon as it was used, is beyond me.
StringOnAStick
@ola azul: glad to see you again. Did that movie idea go forward?
debbie
One more time.