.
Gordon Sondland, a major donor and now ambassador to European Union and who spoke to Trump multiple times in recent months. After Sondland revised his testimony describing quid pro quo for Ukraine military aide, Trump says today: “Let me just tell you I hardly know the gentleman”
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) November 8, 2019
President Trump says he “hardly knows the gentleman,” referring to Gordon Sondland, his ambassador to the European Union, who donated $1 million to his inauguration and revised his testimony this week.
— Kaitlan Collins (@kaitlancollins) November 8, 2019
But then again…
Hill paints quite the picture:
"He told me he was in charge in Ukraine…I said to him you're not. And then he got testy with me. And I said, who has said you're in charge of Ukraine, Gordon? And he said – the President. Well, that shut me up…you can't really argue with that" pic.twitter.com/60ShOtJRgO
— Vera Bergengruen (@VeraMBergen) November 8, 2019
Hill says Sondland was constantly appearing at the White House – "to the point where several people said to me: Is he ever in Brussels?" – and she asked him "what's going on here?"
Sondland: "The President has given me, you know, this broad – I am to be his point man on Europe" pic.twitter.com/BW37VP2BO9
— Vera Bergengruen (@VeraMBergen) November 8, 2019
?? Fiona Hill says she "busted" Sondland on the street by the WH (he hadn't gone through the usual channels) and "he'd say that he'd been in, you know, to see
the President, but I would find from talking to the staff that he'd only been up to see Mick Mulvaney" pic.twitter.com/UlalgqBMPk— Vera Bergengruen (@VeraMBergen) November 8, 2019
Apparently Sondland pretended he was meeting with Trump – a lot! – when he was actually meeting with Mulvaney?
Hill: "I could just say to someone…Hey, has Ambassador Sondland just
been in? And I could just say: Did he see the President? 'No, but he' s been in to see Mulvaney'" pic.twitter.com/1KUQtoMFHP— Vera Bergengruen (@VeraMBergen) November 8, 2019
“A clear case of the Dumb leading the Gullible, Your Honor… ”
”Any depiction of Sondland as the brains behind the Ukraine scheme is easily disabused by even a casual familiarity with Gordon Sondland.” https://t.co/5MOE2Z9xvu
— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) November 8, 2019
… Trump may be too suspicious to allow his underlings to take notes on his schemes, but he’s also dumb enough to just blurt them out himself. And this points to the greatest risk of the House Republicans’ patsy defense: Trump is very unlikely to go along with it. He cannot tolerate other people taking credit for his decisions, manipulating him in any way, or depicting him as anything other than fully in charge of his own administration. What’s more, he seems unable to grasp the accusation itself. Seeing nothing wrong with using foreign policy for his political ends, he keeps confirming he has demanded investigations of his rivals, and indeed keeps demanding new ones in broad daylight.
If House Republicans have already reached such a state of desperation as to absolve Trump from the policies of the Trump administration, one can only wonder where the defenses will go from here…
Trump, today, on Sondland: “I hardly knew the gentleman.”
Trump, one month ago: https://t.co/EwNWWDfpsN
— Heath Mayo (@HeathMayo) November 8, 2019
Look, you don’t expect Trump to know every guy he makes an ambassador because he gave him a million bucks, do you? pic.twitter.com/vhz2kkdPLX
— Schooley (@Rschooley) November 8, 2019
dmsilev
lahke
That’s because his million bucks was just his entry ticket. You don’t get to dance with Trump unless you pony up the big bucks.
Fair Economist
With this dispute over who actually saw Trump, sounds like the House will just be *forced* to subpeona Trump’s meeting records, goshdarnit.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@lahke: Not even big bucks.
I’m sure he stayed at the DC hotel, in a really expensive suite, and made sure trump knew it, and fawned about how great it was, and how his own hotels are no comparison, and he could learn so much….
“You should run my Ukraine policy, Gordon…”
Gin & Tonic
Why is this post tagged “Russia” when it’s about Ukraine?
JR
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What’s funny about that comment is that Sondland’s hotels are pretty nice. My wife and I stayed at Lucia in Portland about a decade ago. The places have a strong primary color theme (Lucia’s was green, Max in Seattle was red). Not sure that’s still true, it was definitely a fashion whose time has passed.
I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Trump hotel, even before all of this.
chris
Tax them all back to the Stone Age. Sondland might never have happened with a 70% top marginal rate. Also this:
Another Scott
‘morning (checks clock, still) everyone.
Twitter:
Hehe. :-)
Here’s hoping that the days of “persecuted Christians in America” memes quickly become as dated as “flag burning” memes.
Cheers,
Scott.
patrick II
To FOX news. Where the viewers will believe both that their stable genius Trump was directing the fight against corruption in Ukraine and that he barely knew and never talked with — what were their names again? — Mulvaney, Giuliani, and Sondland.
Baud
@Another Scott:
Walker is a professor now? Of what? Whining?
MattF
Ambassador Hill appears to be wide awake wrt what’s going on around her. Which is quite risky in or near the Trump WH. I assume she took copious notes.
The Dangerman
I’m guessing Pence is doing the bus undercarriage inspection by Christmas, opening up the slot on the ticket for Ivanka.
PPCLI
No doubt Trump continued “I have given my staff explicit instructions that whenever some rando I’ve never heard of calls me between midnight and 5AM to discuss things I totally didn’t do and know nothing about, they should patch the call through right away.”
Citizen Alan
@dmsilev:
Seems to me with the just say scapegoating and be done with it. I guess that’s why I’m not a fancy pundit at talking points memo.
MattF
@The Dangerman: I’ve had the same thought… but ya think Daddy is really that dumb?
Jay
@chris:
That’s enough money to buy 62 Senators.
The Dangerman
@MattF:
Why, yes, yes I do.
More importantly, there will be a lot of diving on grenades to protect Trump. Giuliani’s turn will come.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Dangerman: I think Pence knows the only reason he’s still there is cause Nikki Haley doesn’t want his job, and the list of people dumb enough to take it shrinks daily
chris
@Jay: From what I’ve read a US senator can be had for as little as $5000.
West of the Rockies
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
But none more dense than Pence.
Citizen Alan
@MattF:
It is nearly inconceivable to me that the 25th amendment option could come into play. However one scenario in which it might, IMO, would be if Shitgibbon actually tried to replace Pence on the ticket.
TomatoQueen
OT, TOON 2 1 Bournemouth, defenders winning it for us again.
trollhattan
@dmsilev:
Would that make blunderbuss accidentally throwing oneself under a bus?
JPL
@Baud: Walker discontinued his studies at Marquette in the spring of 1990, having earned 94 of the 128 minimum credits needed to graduate.[16] He left in good standing with a 2.59/4.0 grade point average, but without having obtained a degree.
wikipedia doesn’t lie
Maybe he’s auditioning for Fox
MattF
@Citizen Alan: We’d have to rely on the Trump children to prevent that. Saying so makes me sigh and look upward for a moment, and I’m not a believer.
germy
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Citizen Alan: as I understand it, under the 25th, the cabinet vote triggers something a lot like impeachment, but requiring 2/3 votes in both houses after the president presents his defense
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
Because that’s the Puppetmaster’s homeland.
NPR just reported that the GOP released their list of witnesses they want to be called, including the whistleblower and Hunter Biden. How will Schiff get around this?
cain
@Citizen Alan:
It will never happen. The people in his cabinet will never do such a thing. The Republican party will never go against their own like that. He would have to be having a full blown press release with a bunch of trees, yelling at them, and squirrels. Maybe even shit his pants a couple of times in public. Even then they’ll defend him “that’s not a shit smell, it’s just musk! Fake news!” No.. the danger is if he decides to use nuclear weapons…
Trump is seen as a symbol of grievance of white america and the evangelical God/Mammon. They can’t break the symbol it is too personal.
Ramalama
@dmsilev: Underbus. I love it. But doesn’t Trump sound more like a John?
A John Barron?
Millard Filmore
The rules that have been adopted say that the witness list must be accompanied by a detailed write-up of what the witness can contribute to the inquiry. Without that the request will be denied.
[why did my reply not say this is for “debbie” at #28?]
cain
@debbie:
They put Hillary on the stand at the end of the testimony. The press will suddenly forget everything that happened before. Hillary in her testimony will sing Trump tweets the entire time, and then finally admit that the deleted emails is on Trump’s email server locked in the White House and in order to get ot it they need to order Trump to open it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie:
I can’t believe they think Volker can help them, and Nellie Ohr suggests they’re going to try to make it about The Dossier!
MattF
@debbie: He will say ‘No’. IMO, anyhow. I’m sure the various possibilities have been war-gamed out to exhaustion.
cain
@Millard Filmore:
If they put Hunter up on the stand, just imagine .. bring in a bunch of witnesses to talk about Trump’s children and how much money they’ve made. Although you’re kind of playing with republicans rules at that point.
Paul T
Sondland’s statement about “he was in charge of Ukraine” immediately echoes the famous Alexander Haig quote:
“I am in charge, here.”
Uncle Cosmo
@dmsilev: IMHO it would sound better in German, the ur-Heimat of compound verbs**: unterbuswerfen: As in Gestern warf Trump Giuliani unterbus. (If only. But “juss yew white, ‘Enry ‘Iggins! Juss! Yew! WHITE!”)
** Studying the language in college we’d have a very modest bit of fun ginning up new verbs, zum Beispiel, ausschweinen, “to pig out”. Und so weiter…
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They probably believe that if they can imply the dossier was a Hillary/Hunter machination, that will nullify everything that followed. Including Trump’s criminality. //
cain
@debbie:
The new Hillary Hunter conspiracy will dominate the headlines “Hillary met with Hunter at 6th birthday party!”
trollhattan
@cain:
And Hillary can come dressed in a box costume with DELL printed on the side.
trollhattan
Lavishly compensated war criminal writes book. (H/T LGM)
Baud
@trollhattan:
She should take a flash drive out of her pantsuit and put it on the table in front of her, all without saying a word.
Jay
People you have never heard of, doing good.
https://www.freeburmarangers.org
James E Powell
@Another Scott:
In right-wing world, there is no such thing as dated. It is a world of undying grievances.
Jay
trollhattan
@Jay:
My shocked face is at the cleaners, otherwise I’d deploy.
Oath of office or Trump loyalty oath? Decisions, decisions.
Villago Delenda Est
@germy: Or land an asset for exploitation by the FSB and GRU.
Jay
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Scott:
There are no Christians persecuted in America. There are “Christians” who worship Mammon and Moloch who should watch their backs, however.
germy
@Villago Delenda Est: At the very least a nice gentleman or two from the NRA.
Jay
@trollhattan:
Yeah, they came by her house and pounded on the front door.
HeleninEire
@germy: Gotta go watch that. BRB.
scav
An entire administration and campaign of “All the right people” comprised of people His Orangeness hardly knew. They wandered in and were handed duties and security clearences. Unmatched “Merkan business genius personified!
germy
WaPo
Baud
@Jay:
I bet a Whites for Warren theme would result in wall to wall news coverage.
Uncle Cosmo
@Citizen Alan: I have often ridiculed on this blog any notion of a “25th Amendment solution” on the grounds that it’s an even heavier lift than impeachment & removal (3/4 of the House as well as the Senate to sideline POTUS). But there is one barely-conceivable exception:
If even more erratic behavior from Trump convinces Thuglicans that there’s a real chance he’d do something disastrous like ordering a nuclear strike somewhere – & more significantly, Fux Noise is just as ascairt & willing to give them cover – I could see MoskvaMitch offering Nancy Smash & Chuck Schemer the votes of 20 GOP Senators and 88 GOP Representatives who would never vote for impeachment & removal but would vote to uphold an unable-to-perform declaration from Mikey Dense & half the Cabinet. Which would at least keep Orangecandyass’s tiny paws away from the unclear [sic] foosball. Deciding whether to accept or reject that sort of offer would be a helluva hard thing…but once again, it is only barely within the realm of possibility.
jonas
@Gin & Tonic: Everything Trump does on Ukraine is because Putin told him to.
trollhattan
@Uncle Cosmo:
Would the myriad temporary cabinet members (including the Mulveney quints) even have a role in such a process? Or would it be Carson, DeVoss, Pompeo, the other white guy and the WH chef?
Villago Delenda Est
@trollhattan: In August of 1934, the oath of soldiers in the Reichswehr was changed from fidelity to the German Constitution to Adolf Hitler by name.
No doubt Donald imagines that government officials, to include the military, are pledged to him by name. He is of course mistaken about that, as he is a great many things.
chris
Chapter MMMDCCLXIV in All the Best People. Manafort’s former son-in-law gets 9 years for fraud.
mrmoshpotato
@Jay: The whitest black people for Dump! *headdesk*
Uncle Cosmo
@trollhattan: And flashing lights! No fun unless there are flashing lights & the whrrrrrr of hard drives!
Then again the Thugs’ idea of a functioning server must be along the lines of
–they’ve never known just what it does, & I guess they never will.
mrmoshpotato
@Baud: And a Blacks for (Democratic candidate) would have Faux News screaming “racism” via everyone’s favorite grifters, Glass and Burlap.
mrmoshpotato
@cain:
In the conservatory!
Omnes Omnibus
@HeleninEire: One might be happier with a dog.
Redshift
@Villago Delenda Est:
He had been pretty obvious all along that he believes he is the CEO of America and everyone who works for the government in any capacity is his employee.
germy
@Omnes Omnibus: A dog is certainly more loyal than a man of wealth.
cain
@trollhattan:
Great minds, etc etc.
Redshift
@James E Powell:
Consider: the reason evolution remains a hot topic among fundamentalists is because it was one of their founding issues a hundred years ago.
So no, nothing ever gets stale on the right.
sheldon vogt
@lahke: Like your soul.
lamh36
ICYMI:
She got it from the beginning, like many folks including Black women voters member did the CBC, etc saw from the beginning…rather than those who cried out “we can work with chump” or “give him a chance…”…
She knew and 3 years later here we are…
Jay
MisterForkbeard
@germy: I think the Dem response should be “The whistleblower is protected by law and we can’t force that. Even under republican theories, Hunter Biden did not have any knowledge of why Trump held up money or demanded a public announcement of his probable primary opponent.
As such, both witnesses will be asked to attend voluntarily but are free to decline.”
lumpkin
“I hardly know him” is like one weird trick to avoid accountability in the moron’s pathological mind. No sane person would ever think that would work but it’s almost a magical incantation to him. Someday Ivanka will be the only person left that he will admit to knowing.
Jay
Jay
lumpkin
One part of this statement is absolutely laughable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Junior’s book (real title: Love Me Daddy! Please! What Do I Have To Do To Get Your Attention?) is “really good”. Rick Lowry’s paean to white nationalism is “great” and “very important!”
“What if he’s a loser?”
debbie
@Jay:
How sad that the go-to reaction in America now is to issue a death threat.
Jay
Jay
@debbie:
There is one place that it’s useful and valid. If you are installing a backdoor, worm, keystroke logger, etc. A lot of people have gotten wise to not opening suspect emails or attachments, but they will always open death threats.
At some point in time, a MAGA Chud is going to run into a reasonable 2nd Amendment Democrat or “Deep Stater” where Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground applies.
Jay
Mary G
She stands up!
Dev Null
@Uncle Cosmo: Chez Null rolled on the floor laughing when I
readsang this out loud.Jay
Jay
Jay
Uncle Cosmo
@Dev Null: I live to swerve. If I can bring just a gaggle of giggles into the hearth of the basic Null household…. :^D
(ETA & BTW, you got a sibling named Aleph? Satisfy my countably infinite curiosity…)
Jay
Ain’t just the US,……….
zhena gogolia
@Mary G:
Cinderblock is awesome!
Dev Null
@Jay: Not sure where I got this, possibly here. Apologies for duplication if so.
Hacker dumps database of neo-Nazi forum Iron March.
Dev Null
@Uncle Cosmo:
From wiki:
Well, goshdurn. The things one learns in comment threads.
I don’t recall encountering the terminology in either of my two measure theory courses or in my probability course … way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, men were men, and the sheep ran scared. (Baaaah!)
Be that as it may, the answer to your question is … nope.
– /dev/null
Jay
@Dev Null:
Yeah, that’s how the Marine Nazis were found.
It’s being turned into a searchable database as we speak, one can find friends, family, neighbours, coworkers, etc who are Iron Front Nazis.
Ladyraxterinok
@Uncle Cosmo:
Remember Fahrvergnuegen? Well, you can go to Essvergnuegen, Trink—etc
In college when a bunch of us were learning German and practicing principal parts of verbs, an adult working with some of us heard werfen, warf, gerworfen, er wirft and innocently asked is that where barf comes from? So then we added berfen, barf, geborfen, er birft
Jay
Martin
@lamh36: In general California writ large had the same view. We could see the vote totals by state. I’m sorry to say it, but California was the resistance. We went from D+23 to D+30. We moved 1.3million votes into the D column. No other state swung that hard against Trump. We had his number all along.
What’s more, we have the power to fight. And we have the leadership to fight. Nothing against Hawaii who is as strongly D as CA, but they can’t punch like CA can punch.
Another Scott
@Dev Null: George Gamow’s One, Two, Three, … Infinity talks about Alephs and lots of other fascinating stuff. I remember it as a great read, those many decades ago.
Cheers,
Scott.
Martin
Of course he did.
Ladyraxterinok
@Villago Delenda Est:
The Lutheran church leaders also started having to swear a personal oath of loyalty to Hitler. We’re nearly there today with the Evangelicals.
That oath was one of the factors that led to the establishment of the Confessing Church by Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth
The Lodger
@Jay: I wonder if Clint Black (former partner of Manafort and Stone) has one of those shirts.
Tehanu
@Uncle Cosmo: Ah, Tom Paxton and Mike Kobluk’s great number! Thanks for reminding me. But (sorry – nitpick) it’s “It goes zip when it moves…”
Ladyraxterinok
@Jay:
Thank you for following and posting.
I’m learning about worlds I hadn’t really been able to believe actually exist.
Born 1940 and growing up with movies of John Wayne winning every WWII battle(plus other info) I can’t quite
believe these people wanting to ‘bring back Nazis’
SWMBO
@cain: Bwhahahaha!!
Come sit next to me.
Ladyraxterinok
@Jay:
So in your face, whatcha gonna do bout it, sucka?
Ladyraxterinok
@Jay:
Do you have any idea what is going on here?
Some comments state this is disinformation scam
Martin
@Dev Null: Bonus points if you give the middle name of Null. (aleph null is the smallest infinite number.)
My 7th grade civics teacher (who was amazing, btw) was named Mendel S Sohn. His parents were musicians, and I guess if your last name is Sohn, the name of your first born is pretty much preordained.
Uncle Jeffy
@MattF: I’m assuming that your question is purely rhetorical.
BC in Illinois
@Ladyraxterinok:
The church/state thing certainly drives my reading of Bonhoeffer. But along with him, and his early opposition to the “leadership principle” [he was on the radio, speaking against the Führerprinzip, already in February, 1933], there is the interesting case of Martin Niemöller.
He is known today for various versions of “First they came for . . . [the communists, the socialists, the trade unionists, the Jews] . . . and then they came for me.” (And in various speeches, he includes the “sick, the so-called incurables,” the occupied countries, the treatment of Poland, Greece, etc.)
But what stands out to me is that, coming out of his conservative nationalism that at first welcomed or at least were hopeful about Hitler, he actually was a part of the opposition. He stood agains the Aryan Paragraphs and the “German Christians.” He was imprisoned from July 1937 to the end of the war.
He was, in a very real sense, one of the good guys, part of the resistance.
And he himself says that he didn’t do what he could have done.
The “Confessing Church” didn’t do what it could have done.
Yeah, they had an illegal seminary (Bonhoeffer) and all that.
But Niemöller is, to me, a cautionary tale. Think of how bad things can get, if Trump lasts through another year. Or worse.
Will I be able to say that I did all that I could to prevent . . . what comes next?
Uncle Cosmo
@Ladyraxterinok: Ich hab’ es so gern… Berfen, barf, geborfen zwar!
Ladyraxterinok
@Martin:
Felix Mendelssohn was the grandson of Moses Mendelssohn, famous Jewish philosopher in18th century Berlin. He was a friend of the famous playwright Lessing. Lessing publicized his work and with his agreement used him to begin opening up German society to the Jews.
Lessing based the character of Nathan der Weise of the play by that name on Moses.
In the 3rd act of that play there is the famous ‘ring parable’ that Nathan tells .Saladin during the Third Crusade when Saladin asks him what is the ‘true religion’—Islam, Judaism, or Christianity.
Sally
@Gin & Tonic: Because all roads lead to Putin?
Uncle Cosmo
@Another Scott: Yeah, but do you remember the time when Gamow was about to publish a physics paper with his grad student Ralph Alpher & George added the name of his esteemed colleague Hans Bethe as co-author? Read all about the Alpher-Bethe-Gamow paper here. Who said physicists have no sense of humor? (Apparently Alpher – who was probably sick of being called “Ralpher” & being accused of living on Alpha Ralpha Boulevard when that SF story came out in 1961 – didn’t. Killjoy.)
Ladyraxterinok
@BC in Illinois:
Bonhoeffer and 2 of his brothers and an uncle who was a leader in the military were executed by the Nazis for working in the Resistence. Dietrich was invited to stay at Union Theological Seminary when he visited after 33. He refused, saying his place was to stay in Germany and fight what was happening.
I don’t think anyone did as much as they possibly could have. I doubt any would have claimed to have done so.
Uncle Cosmo
@Jay: Maybe we ought to be grateful we wound up in the Casey Stengel** sheaf of alternate incipient-fascist realities instead of the Bill Belicheat*** bundle.
——–
** Who as manager of the hapless 1962 NY Mets famously asked, Can’t anyone play this here game?
*** Curbstomped last Sunday evening by the bad boys in black from Bawlmer – & fans of Poe’s Crows will savor it for another 20 hours or so. (As Ravens HC John Harbaugh so trenchantly announces to the locker room it after each victory, “How many wins does this one count for? ONE!” On to Cincinnati.)
Dev Null
@Uncle Cosmo:
Ah, distinctly I remember … :-)
Dev Null
@Tehanu: We relive the ditty via PP&M recordings …
Dev Null
@Another Scott:
I remember reading one or another of Gamow’s books back when I was knee-high to a grasshopper … junior high, probably.
Don’t remember that one, though. (If you ask me which one (or ones … interesting grammatical construction there, how can the plural of “one” be “ones”?) I’ll have to look at his bibliography…)
Dev Null
@Ladyraxterinok:
“I’m old enough to remember when Nazis were the bad guys”
Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
Dev Null
@Ladyraxterinok:
I don’t remember enough Weimar history to be sure, so feel free to tell me I’m wrong, but are the parallels that close? Today’s (conservative white) evangelicals bought into Trump because Republicans have been culture-warring for decades, and Trump (rather ludicrously) positioned himself as the ur-culture-warrior. My sense is that post-Weimar German Christians accepted Hitler as head-of-nation, so in some sense head of the “German church” (for want of a better term) …
… but I haven’t had the impression that German Christians were early Hitler enthusiasts.
E2A: and African-Americans comprise a sizable fraction of the (American) evangelical community, so “evangelical” is too broad-brush.
BC in Illinois
@Ladyraxterinok:
I agree.
I think that the line of “what needs to be done” keeps moving ahead of us, and we just follow it.
Uncle Cosmo
@Dev Null:
Listen & enjoy.. (Lyrics here.)
Dev Null
@Uncle Cosmo: hahahahahha …
that’s wonderful!
Dev Null
@Martin:
I give up. I’ve been trying to place this, and I’m drawing a blank.
“… middle name of Null” refers to …?
hahahahahhaha …
BC in Illinois
@Dev Null:
Some were. They called themselves “German Christians” and brought the Nazi flag into their churches. Some resisted. They called themselves the “Confessing Church” and did what they could, and did what they could to avoid being arrested.
I don’t know really the story about the Catholics, but there was collaboration and there was resistance (and martyrdom) among them as well.
The sad thing about American Evangelicalism is that you don’t hear much about any pushback among the theologically conservatives, who ought to be playing the “We must obey God rather than men,” “You cannot serve both God and mammon,” “Put not your trust in princes” cards.
I will be honest. When one is in a divided congregation, it is far easier to avoid any mention of anything that will trigger any kind of reaction. There will be lots of “Veteran’s Day” messages tomorrow. Few will mention the need to speak a word of judgment to human authorities. Few will mention the command against false witness. Among those of us who do [I am preaching in Illinois tomorrow], we will choose our words with caution.
Dev Null
@Uncle Cosmo: Didn’t know that Alpher objected to Gamow adding Bethe’s name. I’m not sure Alpher was wrong, either … I can’t remember happening across Alpher’s name anywhere else.
Dev Null
@BC in Illinois:
Yes, but … there are those in every era and in every country who conflate church and state. Frex I remember reading an account of pre-WWI patriotic signage in British churches. (The punch line in the account was that patriotic signage mostly disappeared from British churches after the slaughter of WWI.)
My conjecture was that German Christians mostly fell in line behind Hitler because Church and State, not for ideological reasons; and that German Christians were not a key group backing Hitler before he assumed power. I do not remember any account of Hitler’s rise to power that fingered German Christian support as a factor in his seizure of power. Individuals yes; the community, no.
I might be mis-remembering.
But there are people like Jim Wallis who are pushing back, no? Even though – as you say – one doesn’t hear much about them.
I have read that non-Trump (white) evangelicals are choosing to describe themselves in terms other than “evangelical”,
on the grounds (IIRC)the reasoning being (AFAICT) that Trump evangelicals have (so to speak) “damaged the brand”, but yeah – seems to be the exception rather than the rule.And to repeat an earlier point, African-American evangelicals are generally not Trump supporters AFAIK.
Jay
@Ladyraxterinok:
A bunch of the Israeli “digital security” Companies, are believed to be Mossad “off the books”, Dirty Tricks operators.
They have “ up front “ operations, where they provide security and digital security consulting and software to Corporations, Counties and Individuals,
Grey/black areas where they provide “spy for hire” services,
And fully black areas.
If you are amoral and your “client” is Sawdi Arabia, and your client want’s to kill or disappear Sawdi dissedents,
What better way to get close to your targets, than to come in sideways as a digital security Company hireing them as an advisor. It give your “black” operators full access to almost every electonic device, home, office and car, in which to set up complete digital, video and audio survelliance, with out their knowledge.
Kashoggi is not the first journalist or activist murdered with the help of Israeli “Security” Companies.
The Lodger
@Jay: @Martin: Alberta Frangelina Null.