The sound quality is meh, but you can fast forward to see the candidates you’re interested in hearing speak. (Here is the C-Span feed, better sound)
The annual Iowa Democratic Party dinner is part fundraiser and part pep rally that takes on an outsized role every four years. Each White House hopeful gets 10 minutes to make his or her pitch on an important stage just three months before the first Democratic 2020 voters will weigh in. Candidates pay for their supporters to attend, outfitting them with signs, lights, noise makers and chants. They hold events and rallies outside the event and march with banners and signs into the dinner.
Open thread
JPL
Kamala Harris Liberty and Justice speech
bystander
I know we’re all supposed to be somber about the awesomeness of Impeachment, but I’m still hoping Conan the Hero Dog bites twitler.
JPL
@bystander: Twitler would shoot him and his base wouldn’t care.
Baud
@bystander:
I’d settle for peeing on his leg.
sdhays
@JPL: Twitler would crap his pants and the base wouldn’t care.
There’s no way the Secret Service lets him anywhere near a gun.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: trump’s already complaining that he pissed all over trump’s twitter account.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Baud!/Conan! 2020!
Immanentize
I was not surprised to see Beto closing up shop. And I think there is still time for him to run against Cornyn?
But I was very sad to see Harris is pulling staff out of New Hampshire. I guess that State is pretty well wrapped tight between Warren, Sanders and Biden. Still….
frosty
@Baud: Peeing on his leg works for me!
Also too, nice to see you’re back.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Poco is going to be heartbroken, but your faithful followers will understand why you’d prefer a Purple Heart Combat Vet over a homeless belly scratches addicted mutt.
Sab
@Baud: What about Poco?
germy
Enough of this joker.
la caterina
@Baud: Take off your coat and set a spell. We missed you!
Immanentize
Poco a Poco’s style was just a little too incrementalist for BAUD!
germy
Immanentize
By the way, I am confused by two posts being called “Saturday Morning Open Thread.”. Confused in part because it is Saturday morning, I suppose.
Chris Johnson
@Immanentize: She is? That sucks. She’s been my second favorite for ages now.
If she does eventually have to drop the idea of being President in 2020, I want her to be my Attorney General… or Veep… or just something else important (AG is more important than Veep, especially now). We’ve got the Augean Stables. I want angry black lady energy like a mighty river coming through and ruthlessly blowing away all the shit. I am done with shit and I’m done with white man shit. I would still be supporting Bernie if he hadn’t proven just as prone to White Man Shit. “Gee, I’ll take support wherever I can get it! Tad Devine says all this money is grass roots Americans and it’s definitely not being supplemented by Russians with an axe to grind, and that’s enough for me!” Feh.
Give me an entire government of angry black women and maybe we’ll get somewhere.
germy
JPL
@Immanentize: $$$$$$ Kamala is hoping for Iowa. Pete Buttigeg appears to be gaining from Biden’s missteps, not Kamala. She gave a heck of a speech last night though.
JPL
@Immanentize: multi-tasking
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’m heading out for the McHenry IL library fair this morning. 10-12. I’m scheduled to read at 11:50, by which time I expect everyone else will have left. If you’re in the area, come on down!
Betty Cracker
@germy: The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that he meant Iowans are wildly over-represented as the first caucus state and as a relatively low population state, but even that makes no sense at all.
@JPL: That’s the smart play at this point: throw everything at Iowa and then hope a decent showing there translates into momentum in South Carolina.
BR
For the first time in a while, I was disappointed in the whole field. Still favoring Warren but she lacked her usual energy, Mayor Pete seemed to be trying too hard to sound like Obama but didn’t get there, Biden was Biden, etc. Made me want Obama again (I know, high bar).
germy
JMG
Any rational assessment of the nomination race is that it remains wide open and that some of those trailing badly today could yet have their chance to compete. When the leader’s at 25-30 percent, it doesn’t take all that much of a surge to get back among the top rank contenders, as Mayor Pete is now proving. Just pick the one you think will make the best President. And don’t worry if you haven’t made up your mind. Neither have most Democrats.
Kay
@germy:
I know you’re joking but we have three younger people running in a D primary to run against Latta (US House). I went to an event where they each gave a speech and every single one of them mentioned AOC as an inspiration. Not the “reason” but they mentioned her as someone they admire. In the past we have had to beg and plead to get anyone to run because it’s so hard for a D to win. One of them has backing from Brand New Congress, which was (or is- I don’t know) the Sanders org.
germy
@Kay: I admire AOC. Especially her questioning of people like Zuckerberg and various Trump minions. I’m glad she’s inspiring a new generation.
the Conster
I’m in for Harris and Klobuchar and Klobuchar and Harris. 1 and 1a in either order. I often watch these debates and speeches with the sound off to see how they comport, and it’s always Klobuchar and Castro that I find impressive. I was a Gillibrand and big Inslee fan too, but prepared to roll with Joe if that’s how it looks after SC.
MagdaInBlack
@germy:
That thread of his latest rally makes me ill.
Eta: That is not dementia, that is hate.
Kay
@germy:
Me too. Here’s the Brand New Congress candidate, Nick Rubando.
I actually am not backing him- I’m backing one of the other two because he’s local (to where I live) we have done D volunteer events together and I just really like him as a person. We did a Dem event together at a fair and he was asking people who came up “if you could change one thing about this country what would you change?” – ok, I was cynical about this- it’s lovely but I thought they would blow him off or be mean, this is a 70% Trump county but they were seriously answering. Over and over they took the question seriously and answered. It’s not a random sample- these are people who walked up to a Dem booth after all, but I was impressed.
germy
@MagdaInBlack:
The crowd (so many young people!) eats up the hate, but they go silent when he starts bragging about Wall Street profits.
TaMara (HFG)
I just want to remind everyone that this was Obama’s CONCESSION speech in New Hampshire. So things can change dramatically along the way.
Kay
@germy:
That was the buzz in the room too- this is a room of people who have been coming to these events for 20, 30, 40 years – it was “they’re all so young” :)
It’s like we skipped a bunch of decades. 70 to….30.
BR
@TaMara (HFG):
A small part of me wants Michelle Obama to ride in and save the day. I know, I’m not supposed to want that, but I kind of do… She and Barack just know how to communicate.
JR
I’m still bummed about M4A. I see it as a poison pill. Feeling adrift in my candidate choice.
Kay
Here’s the NYTimes political team promoting Don Jr’s book.
Why is it newsworthy that one of the Trumps wrote a grifter book attacking the family’s enemies? Why promote this book and repeat the smears as “news”?
Gross.
debbie
@Immanentize:
No, but Trump’s remark about Beto was beyond precious:
Kay
The newspaper that attempted to promote the Hunter Biden conspiracy, but failed only because a whistleblower appeared, covers Don Jr. not in terms of conflicts of interest or nepotism or how the family use the presidency for personal and financial gain but instead to promote his book and repeat his smears against Mueller.
Must be nice to be a Trump and have the “paper of record” as your personal PR firm. Do they actually cover politics anymore? Anything at all beyond Donald Trump and his otherwise unemployable children? I guess the Washington Post has the “national politics” lane all to themselves.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: I say a little bit of Washington Week yesterday. And NYT hack Peter Baker was on. He was trying to minimize yesterday’s vote by comparing it to Bill Clinton’s impeachment. That’s their talking point now, impeachment is no big deal because no Rs voted for it.
Steeplejack (phone)
This is fine.
Butter emails!!!
@JR:
Gotta love liberals and Democrats. Republicans are fired up about voting to keep kids in cages and we’re depressed because one of our candidates releases a plan that will result in 20 million more people insured.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
He wrote an impeachment book. It’s a set of integrated brands, these “reporters”, and the books are part of the product.
I just wish they wouldn’t weigh in on the D race. The Washington Post covers that. We don’t need Team Trump opining. You can learn more about the 2020 election from reading Dave Weigel’s twitter feed than you can from paying for the NYTimes. Sure you’ll miss out on the pro-Trump “context”, the “clouds” over various Democrats and such, but honestly how much is that worth? I’m not sure I need to read what the Trump Family told the NYTimes which is then presented as “news”. I can just get it from the Trumps directly. They never fucking shut up, I hear it whether I want to or not.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
A normally rational person would look at the Clinton impeachment vote v the Trump impeachment vote and conclude that Democrats are less partisan than Republicans. Some Democrats voted against their President, no Republicans did. Easy, right? If we’re making comparisons (which is all they do). THIS compares to THAT. That’s all they do. Compare/contrast. It’s their one tool.
That’s the rational conclusion comparing those. But no- political media looks at those hoofbeats and finds the zebra- “this means Democrats are more partisan”. How does it possibly mean that? It’s bullshit. They had to REACH to conclude that. It’s not the obvious answer.
JMG
Everyone here will vote for the Democratic nominee and most will contribute and/or volunteer for same. And some of them will do so while posting here that said nominee is doomed because (insert faux outrage of the day). Why? Because they’re Democrats, that’s why. It’s what Weigel calls “scaredy-cat syndrome” and it is far and away the most irritating thing about belonging to this political party.
germy
I will vote for the Democratic nominee. There’s too much at stake to stay home.
I would vote for my cat if she became the nominee. And her only position so far is her campaign promise not to “lock up the dogs. I like the dogs” (which I know is a lie).
the Conster
@Butter emails!!!:
Liz Warren knows that’s never getting through the Senate, and she knows that because she’s a Senator, knows the filibuster rules and would be replaced by a Republican so there goes the Senate. Has she even mentioned that? Sanders too. I’m just tired of her blowing smoke up my ass, then when people like me point out to her what I just described as the political reality, WHICH IT IS, she says we belong in the Republican party. The same person who was a Republican most of her adult life. So, that’s why I’m glad A Klo keeps keeping it real. I don’t want *plans*, I want to beat Trump.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: You’d make a GREAT professional media critic, Kay. You cut through the bullshit better than the pros, IMO. In case you want to explore new career options! :)
germy
@Betty Cracker: See my comment #15
Betty Cracker
@the Conster: All candidates have plans that would need a reconfigured Senate to pass. By that standard, all of them are blowing smoke up your ass to some degree. That said, Warren’s plans are super-ambitious, and I hope she uses the occasion of releasing her transition plan to point out what a heavy lift M4A is. She has alluded to that in past speeches and writing, but it bears repeating.
germy
https://www.damemagazine.com/
Betty Cracker
@germy: I’m glad folks are boycotting Deadspin.
the Conster
@Betty Cracker:
Amy addressed that in an interview by talking about undoing all the EO stuff that Trump did, and getting control back over the DOJ and the IC. By re-joining the alliances and treaties, and GETTING BABIES OUT OF CAGES FIRST. Also, her shout out to Pelosi in this speech, and her advocacy for the women responsible for the blue wave, is a big deal to me. Liz’s *only I can fix it with my plans* ain’t it.
Leto
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Good luck!!! Let us know how it goes :)
@germy: Same; I told an old boss I’d vote for a lamp before I’d vote for a Republican. A lamp would be an upgrade to what we have now. Also I hope that many of us sign up to help the BJ North East Project (flip Maine). It’s still a ways out but planning can’t happen soon enough.
TomatoQueen
Give me an entire government of angry black women and maybe we’ll get somewhere.
Nominating for rotating tag.
the Conster
@TomatoQueen:
Yes. With President Pelosi.
West of the Rockies
@Baud:
Well, Poco was a liability among larger canine voters.
Matt McIrvin
@JMG: I believe we’re probably destined to lose for reasons unrelated to who we nominate. Which sometimes makes me think I should vote for Biden so that his ideology is the one that will get discredited when we lose in 2020.
topclimber
@the Conster: Personally I don’t think it gets through the Democratic House. But if it did, with a 50-50 Senate you could go for reconciliation. That’s how ACA squaked through, remember?
Kay
@the Conster:
Warren (essentially) put forth two parts in the health care funding plan she released. She presents it as M4A longer term and a bunch of EO’s and rule changes to shore things up in the meantime. I don’t know but I would guess that’s how she plans to approach it in comparison with the other candidates- that she incorporates their “fixes” short term but has a bigger goal. This is a primary so she’s competing against Democrats – her pitch might be a twist on what they all say “any Democrat on this stage will shore up existing healthcare systems”. True, and that includes Warren. She’s proposing “fixes” as the least you will get with her while Klobachur and Biden propose fixes as the most you will get with them. She’s right to a certain extent. It really isn’t binary. She could fail at M4A and still do all the things Biden and Klobachur plan. Their ceiling is her floor.
Aleta
@Steeplejack (phone):
That photo. K & A aren’t scared of little things like bias, “appearance of impropriety,” separation of church and state.
If anyone’s interested, here’s (a carefully worded beginning toward) how they want to interpret
MomSense
@topclimber:
Not as simple as that. Vox did a piece explaining the problem.
senate rules make it tough to pass Medicare for all
the Conster
@Kay:
I have a more basic question than whether anything she proposes can be passed. Why is everyone so hot to give control over healthcare to those who want to do nothing more than dismantle it? Haven’t we seen enough of the all white male panels deciding on women’s health? I read through Warren’s plan. There’s no mention of the Hyde Amendment. What is her plan for getting rid of that now, with a far right SCOTUS? When I mention the VA, people rush to its defense as a system to model for national healthcare like the UK has, then the next thing they say is that it’s always squeezed for funding, I mean, HELLO. Then when Medicare or SS is mentioned as an example of how the government can reliably maintain a big social benefit system, I point out that the only reason Moscow Mitch and his GOP cronies haven’t gone after that is because that’s their white base and they’re careful not to get AARP all riled up, but they keep threatening it anyway. Republicans aren’t going away, as long as there’s a white majority voting bloc for them. I just don’t get it. We’re not a European country.
noncarborundum
@the Conster:
Temporarily. By state law there has to be a special election within 160 days of the vacancy.
Butter Emails
@the Conster:
This is true. Leaving 10s of millions of people uninsured, 10s of millions more underinsured, maintaining a two-tiered health care system where poor and minorities are sicker and die earlier and paying about 40% more for it than other countries is a small price to pay to make sure that health care decisions remain in the hands of the flaming liberal CEOs who run insurance companies.
topclimber
Yes, it does seem quite a hurdle. But less than overcoming a filibuster.
Note the conclusion of the VOX piece :”But reconciliation, by all accounts, doesn’t seem like the best path to finishing the job.” Also, that actual hurdles will depend on specific content of proposed bill. So it is not impossible.
PS Thanks for the link. I now understand better what we are up against. I prefer not to talk out of my b-hole, so the more facts the better.
Personally I don’t think M4A is a hill worth dying on. But what the Dem platform is more likely to adopt and a Dem House propose (expanded ACA with public option or optional Medicare buy in that does not threaten private insurance) will be a winner. Still, it will probably need to pass through reconciliation anyway. Or not, if we don’t get a Dem Senate.
Just not fond of folks belittling candidates who back up their dreams with numbers.
PS. Thanks for the link. Now I know better what we are up against. I prefer not to talk out of my b-hole so the more facts the better.
Apologies if PS shows twice. Lost on first edit?
Doug R
@the Conster:
Elizabeth Warren makes a forceful argument on how the Hyde Amendment worsens inequality
the Conster
@MomSense:
I mean, Warren KNOWS this. So does Sanders. There are over 200 common sense publicly and bipartisan supported bills sitting on McConnell’s desk now. We need the Senate. To Liz’s credit, she seems to understand that by offering her fundraising to Gideon for Collins’ seat, but neither one of them seem to have much to say about the fact that it’s all DOA unless we flip the Senate, and both Sanders and Warren, if they win, will be replaced by a GOPer. Then what?
Butter Emails
@the Conster:
By this definition, all the candidates are blowing smoke up your ass. Even if we narrowly take the Senate, there doesn’t seem to be any chance of the filibuster being nuked. That means almost any of the candidates’ proposals and polcies that involves legislation is going to be dead on arrival in the Senate.
Just Chuck
@the Conster: Because “nothing’s going to happen in my presidency but vote for me anyway” is a pretty lousy slogan. I mean, why try at all, right?
Doug R
Elizabeth Warren: “We should get rid of the filibuster”
JMG
@the Conster: It is absolutely unclear that Charlie Baker, although a Republican, would name any other Mass. GOP member to the seat. They’re a pretty Trumpy bunch and he sure isn’t. In any event, there would then be a special election, as happened when Ted Kennedy died, a placeholder was put in by Gov. Patrick, and then Scott Brown beat Martha Coakley like six months later.
Butter Emails
@the Conster:
Warren would only be replaced for about 145 days. By that point a special election would have to be held to fill her seat which a Democrat would almost certainly win unless our current governor ran for it himself.
Just Chuck
Isn’t California having its primaries on the same day as IA and NH? Seems to me the smart play would be to go where the fucking delegates are rather than continue this idiotic charade.
topclimber
@momsense
This one is for Momsense.
I will try this again. Just posted a reply to you that went to me. Yet another example of not knowing what I am doing.
the Conster
@Doug R:
So? What does that have to do with her healthcare plan that will give MORE control over women’s healthcare to a potential GOP HHS? You don’t think rules and regs governing what the government will cover won’t be constantly under assault? Abortion services can’t be covered now – what about birth control?
the Conster
@Butter Emails:
After the Scott Brown fiasco, I will never accept that as fact again. I’m surrounded by MAGAs in downtown Boston.
the Conster
@Just Chuck:
How about let’s just get rid of Trump so we can get the babies out of cages and reverse his treason with Russia, instead of trying to sell a $52 trillion pie in the sky. Let’s restore our democracy and norms of behavior, and get the DOJ back. That sounds pretty fucking good to me.
Butter Emails
@the Conster:
This is true, but most of them drive back to New Hampshire at the end of the day.
Cacti
@Butter Emails:
That’s why Warren’s campaign, and especially M4A are being carried by the support of minorities and the poor.
Wait, no it isn’t. It’s the hobby horse of middle to upper middle class, college educated whites, who have the least to lose when it gets the Dems crushed at the ballot box nationally.
the Conster
@Butter Emails:
Not the ones around me. And they’re high paid professionals, not the morons at his rallies. I’ve been shocked to find out who they are and that they’re all still all in with him, because of the economy. Obama’s economy, but they don’t believe it. It disgusts me.
Butter Emails
@Cacti:
If you want the candidate who currently has the support of the poor and minorities, it’s Biden. Not Harris and certainly not Klobuchar. If you’re looking for the candidates who enjoy the 2nd and 3rd greatest level of support among minorities, it’s Liz and Bernie.
Ian R
I would be fascinated to see how the YouTube analytics on how many people fast forwarded to which candidates line up with current polling.
Ruckus
@bystander:
Dog is a lot smarter than to bite something so disgustingly distasteful.
Butter Emails
@the Conster:
You definitely have my sympathy. That type of environment would probably have me wearing an impeach 45 sports jersey until I was fired for dress code violations.
MattF
Somewhat OT. Lengthy ‘animated’ NYT article about Trump’s tweeting.
JR
At the end of the day it’s incumbent on those who support M4A to make their case to the unconvinced rather than the other way around. I say this as someone who is drifting away from Warren right now.
MomSense
@Kay:
The problem is she handed the Republicans major, very effective talking points against her if she is the nominee. I guarantee you she will not win because of this. There will be ads on a never ending loop about millions of lost jobs. And for what? For a plan that is so unrealistic and needs to start in the congress anyway?
MomSense
@Cacti:
The people who are the most dismissive of the concerns and the most supportive of M4A have insurance right now, many through their employers even. I’m at the point of telling them they should give up their insurance now in solidarity with the uninsured if they are so confident about this.
PJ
@the Conster: Your problem is with our Constitution. The 2020 election isn’t going to change that, no matter who the Democratic candidate is. Republicans, or whoever succeeds them as the party(ies) of white supremacy and/or the plutocracy, will always be working to undo the work of liberals. But you have an animus against Warren because?
zhena gogolia
@MomSense:
I just told my husband, I’m at the point where I’m praying for Buttigieg. I never thought I’d get here, but there we are. He’s young and he’s not a Bernie clone.
Why is Bernie still in the race after having a heart attack? Anyone?
PJ
@zhena gogolia: Buttigieg is the Wall St. candidate. He wants more Anthony Kennedys on the Supreme Court. If this were 25 years ago, we’d call it triangulation.
PJ
@MomSense: Medicare for All doesn’t mean giving up your insurance, it means everyone gets insurance. I only have insurance thanks to the ACA, and am supporting M4All. Even if we win the Senate, it’s not going to happen overnight – it will take years, but it will be worth it.
JR
@PJ: definitionally, it means giving up your insurance. People with private, employer-sponsored plans are going to lose those and get what everyone else gets. The only people with private insurance in a post M4A world will be generally wealthier folks with boutique supplementary insurance.
Marcopolo
@Just Chuck: Here are the dates for the early contests: IA 2/3; NH 2/11; NV 2/22; SC 2/29
CA & the rest of Super Tuesday is 3/3
Early voting for CA starts 29 days before the election, so just after the IA caucuses; however, the final vote tally in CA probably won’t be finished until about 3 weeks after 3/3. There are a hell of a lot of delegates from CA but determining who gets them is gonna be a bit of a mess & slow.
The results out of IA, NH, NV, and SC will still play a huge role in deciding the contest.
I first said it a couple weeks ago but there’s a decent chance right now that we get to the convention w/ no one having a majority of the delegates.
Kathleen
@JPL: Yes she did.
Marcopolo
@JR: Going to M4A means everyone goes from either having/not having insurance to everyone just having health care coverage. It ain’t insurance at that point anymore.
Kay
@MomSense:
I understand the political concerns but that’s different than “won’t get through the Senate so she’s overpromising”
They’re all overpromising if that’s the issue. Immigration reform “won’t get through the senate” either and Republicans will and are attacking on it. Should Democrats not run on it?
Ella in New Mexico
Dang! The Pie filter is pinging on 12 cylinders right now. It’s working harder than the electronic mosquito zapper in my backyard after our monsoon season. Sneak peek into the pied comments is reassuring, though-looks like most of us are not biting.
I guess a certain Iowa poll is making people nervous. But like I said a few threads below, looks like the “split the Democrats and get them to eat each other 2.0” campaign is in full swing here at BJ: stay vigilant.
japa21
My top 3 currently are Harris, Klobuchar and Biden, in that order. Running on M4A is a sure fire loser. I read through Warren’s plan, and although it has nice points it will result in a lot of doctor’s opting out and either retiring or becoming a provider only for the wealthy. Doctors accept Medicare payments now because it usually represents a small portion of their patient load. Being reimbursed at Medicare rates for everybody they see will definitely piss them off.
And despite her claims, it will not reduce administrative costs all that much. Coding still needs to be done, claims still need to be submitted. The number of claims where a doctor’s office actually has to fight with an insurance company is actually fairly small. Claims could still be denied, there would still need to be approval for medical necessity, etc.
Her system of paying for it has a lot of “well if x happens maybe Y happens and we get money that way” components.
And believe it or not, a lot of people do like their insurance.
Marcopolo
@zhena gogolia: Please take a deep breath. Voting is a ways off. We have a lot of great candidates. Depending on what happens any of them could either beat or lose to Trump. Maybe focus your energy on making sure as many D voters get to the polls in Nov 2020 as possible by helping a local group do canvassing/voter outreach or throwing a small monthly donation to a group like Fair Fight 2020. If you are already doing that then great but still don’t freak out, it doesn’t help you or anyone around you.
And if you are reading a lot of hyperbolic crap about how anyone is destined to lose, oh well, I’ve probably pied them :).
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Marcopolo:
I’ve been convinced of this for months now, and the trends still support it.
Likely scenario:
– In June 2020, at least 4-5 candidates will have delegates, and none will have the majority needed to claim the nomination outright
– Whichever candidate has a plurality will likely need to strike a deal with one or more of their fellow delegate-holding candidates
Who will strike a deal with who? I can’t imagine Sanders playing ball with any of the other candidates. Could a 2nd place candidate assemble a coalition with others to capture a majority of delegates? And what if no deal is struck before the convention?
Lots of things to speculate about – but it feels like this race is still 100% wide open.
MomSense
@Kay:
The Gallup tracking numbers on immigration are pretty good actually. Once you get into admitting your plan for health insurance (an issue where most people are risk averse to start) includes job losses and tax increases you are handing your opposition a major gift.
Kay
@MomSense:
IMO, Warren overplays the “abandon hope!” message of the centrists but sometimes they make it easy for her. One of the criticisms of her M4A funding plan yesterday was based on the part that anticipates immigration reform. She’ll never get that, was the complaint. Okay, so one more central Democratic campaign issue that we’re giving up on preemptively? I mean, this MAY create some cynicism among our voters if we intend to do none of what we say we’re running on.
debbie
@Doug R:
Also, get rid of omnibus bills and insist on up or down votes. If a bill doesn’t pass, fix it so it will.
Marcopolo
@Kay: Hey Kay,
Just want to say thanks for continually being a positive voice of calm reason. We definitely need them under the current circumstances:). And as others have remarked from time to time you have a great way of laying out your thoughts in a way that is easy to grasp.
And now my movie is about to start so everyone have a great day!
the Conster
@japa21:
I am exactly with you. Throw Bennet in there too. I want a real Dem who fully supports the ACA and the legacy of Obama, and can beat Trump. Too much baggage with Warren between her made up family NA nonsense, her wildly ambitious plans, and her tying herself to non-Democrat socialist heart patient Bernie and ratfucker Michael Moore with their *economic anxiety* BS makes me think she has terrible judgment. Giving the GOP talking points about protecting healthcare is just the dumbest thing I can think of right now.
Kay
@MomSense:
I’m fine with the tax increase political concerns but I think the “job losses” argument is just not persuasive. There may well be job losses in the health insurance industry but that seems to me to be a completely nutty thing to base a country’s health care policy on. Retail is bleeding jobs. Do people have some obligation to go to malls? They’re not obligated to pay a middleman just purely to employ the middleman. If M4A becomes popular that’s a pretty clear indication they don’t see any added value to having the middleman.
MomSense
@Kay:
The major complaint was admitting 2 million jobs eliminated. Then she tried to say her plan discussed the transition and cost (it didn’t) and that most people could get jobs in other types of insurance. I don’t think that is an adequate response. They will run ads with her admitting to two million jobs eliminated in an endless loop.
I’m not arguing the merits of her plan. I’m trying to talk about the political fallout. I will be on the phones. I was on the phones during the ACA and it was difficult – but I never had to defend knowingly eliminating millions of jobs. To announce that voluntarily before an election this important is inexcusable.
MomSense
@MomSense:
Hillary admitting the coal industry was dying and the jobs weren’t coming back was a big mistake and the coal industry had fewer than 100,000 jobs total.
Doug R
@MomSense:
That’s like worrying about buggy whip makers, lamplighters and whalers. I think insurance people could find gainful employment elsewhere.
Everyone except the top 1% will basically get a pay RAISE, the economy will boom.
MomSense
@Kay:
You think that job losses is not persuasive in a presidential election? I don’t even know what to say. If jobs are not one of the major issues of this election it will be unlike any other presidential election in modern history.
MomSense
@Doug R:
WTF is this with this buggy whip thing? I saw it yesterday. It wasn’t clever or pithy then either.
Jesus fucking Christ this place has gotten fucking ridiculous. It’s like we didn’t just live through a decade of job killing Obamacare being a persuasive election year argument until all of a sudden people woke up with the Republicans controlling all three branches of government and they realized they could lose their insurance.
How many people here actually do any campaigning of the phone and door knocking variety? If you have you will know exactly what those conversations will be like and why this is a fucking nightmare.
CaseyL
I get the doom-saying, since we’re so conditioned to see things from how the GOP/MSM can attack them. I can also understand the fear of doing anything that might risk having Trump in the WH after Jan 21 2021.
But it’s hard to see how we can recognize the basic economic structure of the country is not just predatory, but downright parasitic – and not realize the only way to change that is with proposals that do indeed undo those rotten structures root and branch.
M4A might not be the way to get there – but it dares to take a bulldozer to the rot, and we need to have that conversation. We’ve been at best nibbling around the edges of the rot for 30-odd years, not getting near the roots.
Ella in New Mexico
@Kay: :
I agree. Like I said yesterday, is anyone on our side arguing we can’t move away from coal ever because of job losses for coal miners? We know the transition to renewables and green policies will require helping those who will be hit hard by the changes stay employed. I I really think any losses attributable to the US change to a single payer system like M4A will likely be more about restructuring and retraining or attrition than true “losses”.
Doug R
@MomSense:
Failing Like a Buggy Whip Maker? Better Check Your Simile
Turns out the skills involved in buggy whip manufacturing didn’t translate well into the new industry of car manufacture. Bicycle companies and to some extent carriage makers did do well though.
PJ
@Kay: Warren knows that if you want to win you have to get people fired up. If you just say, “well, if I’m elected there probably won’t be much I’ll be able to do because the Republicans will control the Senate and the Supreme Court”, you’re telling people to stay home instead of voting. She is hopeful, unlike many of the Eeyores on this site. As Weigel points out here, Obama also knew that being cautious is fatal: https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1190644202281013248
James E Powell
@Butter emails!!!:
My feelings exactly. The only thing to worry about is whether the candidate can beat Trump and have some coattails. Apart from that, who gives a shit? I’m amazed that the fear of a second Trump term doesn’t galvanize Democrats.
MomSense
@Doug R:
I know what a buggy whip is. I think what you are missing is that I am talking about the politics of calling for millions of job losses not whether those people could do another job.
We don’t have a great record when it comes to job retraining but yes, I do think people can find other jobs, but in many states healthcare providers are the biggest employers- and those are good jobs. The ambiguity of which jobs will be eliminated will add to the fears. This is not a winnable political argument and I’m really surprised Jackals don’t see that.
I get that you think you are making a clever point but it has nothing to do with the politics of eliminating jobs which is what I am trying to discuss.
James E Powell
@MomSense:
I would admit that the edited version of Hillary’s remarks about about coal miners were inelegant and that the Republicans made a big deal out of them, but I’d estimate that the whole thing cost her zero electoral votes. They were never going to vote for her.
Ruckus
@Just Chuck:
No republican is going to win CA.
We had a republican sending out emails about how screwed up the state is and how he was going to fix it. He’ll have that loser stink on him till the dirt is six feet over his head. There are a few red areas in the state but also in that last election a lot of red strongholds turned blue. Orange county……. trump isn’t selling well here, even among some of the trumpers.
J R in WV
@MomSense:
Insurance employees are NOT health care providers, they are health care deniers. That is whom Senator Warren is making less important in her future world, not Health Care workers. Insurance clerks. We need far fewer of those in my book. Same for Coal MIners,
Zelma
I know I’ll get plastered for this, but I’m thinking of supporting Biden. I understand the attraction of “I’ve got a plan,” but the most important task of a Democratic administration in 2021 will be repairing all the damage that the last three years have wrought. Our foreign policy is in shambles and our government structures are tottering. The first tasks will be protecting what we will still have and putting things back together again.
None of these worthwhile reforms can be enacted and all of them will provide ammunition for the kinds of attacks at which Trump and the Republicans have perfected. Remember we won in 2018 based on protecting the gains that had been made. This is something that the voters can understand and support.
The most important goal has to be defeating Trump and the Republicans. The Republicans will campaign based on fear and, frankly, I think we have to do the same thing. We have to make the voters very afraid of what Trump and the Republicans will do if given four more years. I’m not sure which candidate will be best at stoking that fear and reassuring voters that a Democratic president will not be scary, but whoever it is will get my support.
I now await the brickbats.
tam1MI
@MomSense: M4A is going to need coders and claims adjusters as well.