BREAKING: The first big vote on impeachment proceedings against President Trump passes in the House, opening the door to public hearings https://t.co/yUd7vxtNZh pic.twitter.com/wyVCbNSIMH
— CNN Politics (@CNNPolitics) October 31, 2019
by David Anderson| 164 Comments
This post is in: Impeachment Inquiry, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome
BREAKING: The first big vote on impeachment proceedings against President Trump passes in the House, opening the door to public hearings https://t.co/yUd7vxtNZh pic.twitter.com/wyVCbNSIMH
— CNN Politics (@CNNPolitics) October 31, 2019
Comments are closed.
waspuppet
“How dare the Democrats hold these sensitive hearings in public” in 3…2…1…
MattF
I’m a Pelosi fanboi– but even so, her command of the D caucus appears to be complete.
Butter emails!!!
1. I don’t get the no votes by the 2 Democrats. Just be somewhere else.
2. Looks like Amash was the last Republican with any sort of actual set of ethics in the House. Even the ones who are retiring voted no.
GregB
Impeach the mofo already.
Eric NNY
Well, good. Still won’t stop the howler monkeys from flinging poo though.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Butter emails!!!: Colin Peterson (MN) is from a double-digit +trump district, Jeff Van Drew’s south Jersey isn’t that red, I think, but I think trump did win it.
germy
Immanentize
I really dislike this woman:
Ceci n est pas mon nym
How’s poor Jason Chaffetz doing, the guy who complained that 3 days wasn’t enough time? Did he manage to read the resolution yet? Or is he still sounding out the title?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@MattF: What was Gandi’s line? “There are my people, now I must run to catch up to them so I can lead them” hehe Sounds like Pelosi has good communications with the house dems, and that’s important.
MattF
@Immanentize: Grisham is a stone-cold Trumpite.
scav
Now I’m confused. The Witchhunt! just became an Official Witchhunt! on Halloween itself. So, are we hunting for witches or are the witches in charge?
Just want to know so I can get the proper headgear.
trnc
@Butter emails!!!: A yes vote wouldn’t get them a sweet fox news gig.
Bobby Thomson
@Immanentize: he gets due process unless he continues to obstruct by withholding documents and ordering people not to testify. So unless he’s stupid enough to trigger the hammer by . . .
Oh.
Omnes Omnibus
@Butter emails!!!: @trnc: I wouldn’t worry too much about them. They and Pelosi probably know their districts better than we do. I would not be surprised of Pelosi and the rest of the leadership released them to vote as they needed.
NotMax
No trick, all treat.
dmsilev
@Immanentize: It’s quite a feat to fail to rise to the standards of Sarah Huckabee Sanders.
Frankensteinbeck
I was honestly worried this wouldn’t pass. I know Pelosi is better than that, but these have been a crazy few years and it’s hard to trust.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
When I first read that I thought Andrzejczak was an R challenging Van Drew, but he’s a Dem. I think Nixon’s twitter ghost is pointing out that JVD is not a stand-up guy. A lot of people on the internet talk about the influence of George Norcross, said to be the last of the old school political bosses, who’s a Democrat, but a corrupt Democrat who makes Lieberman and Ed Rendell look like hippies
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: I’m honestly worried that if they keep this up, someone is going to move beyond showing contempt (“I don’t want to serve you in my restaurant”) and move into actual violence.
This level of gaslighting is infuriating, and it’s literally ALL THEY DO. They take pleasure in pissing people off, and it’s eventually going to come back and bite them.
eric
@Immanentize: the verdict is in the senate, asshat.
Raoul
@Butter emails!!!: I don’t live in his district, but as a fellow Minnesotan, I do (sort of) get the predicament of Collin Peterson. His district has a PVI of R +12. That doesn’t really excuse him on ethical grounds, but transactionally, I guess it makes sense.
The thing is, he’s going to be attacked for his “D” (or, here DFL) identity, so this vote seems like slim insulation.
But such are the likely electoral politics.
rikyrah
@Immanentize:
The trial’s in the Senate, you stupid cow. This is the grand jury phase.
mrmoshpotato
@rikyrah: Hard for Grisham to support and defend the Constitution if she doesn’t know how it works.
dww444
@Immanentize:Well, delusional is the preeminent descriptive adjective among the GOP minions these days. While I don’t know how to imbed/link a tweet, here’s Ivanka’s:
Also, too, any Democrat who voted “No” on impeachment has got to either be totally delusional or totally bought and paid for. Probably cowardly as well.
SFAW
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Chaffetz retired from the House in 2017. I think his comment was snark directed at the intellectual abilities of members of his former caucus.
I thought he was an asshole as a Rep, and he probably still is, but his comment was funny.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@rikyrah: Good lord, are those idiots in the White House really that ignorant they don’t get that?
Eolirin
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: No, they think their base is. And they’re probably right.
mrmoshpotato
@dww444: I know it’s Halloween, but I won’t horrify my eyeballs with that tweet. I trust your judgment that it’s stupid.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dww444: I wonder who’s doing the research. Conway? Some very nervous College Republican from George Mason?
Gravenstone
@Eric NNY: Pretty much. They’ll just claim it’s a”partisan witch hunt” and scream ever louder. With luck, a few of them with stroke out or usher in the widowmaker, and our collective IQ as a nation will inch up a couple of points.
Marcopolo
Wait, what? There was an impeachment vote? I thought the big deal of the day was Rep. Katie Porter (CA-D) showing up to work at Congress today dressed as Batwoman.
So I guess this means that Batwoman is for impeachment. I’m down with that.
joel hanes
@SFAW:
I thought [Jason Chaffetz] was an asshole
This is far too kind.
Kay
@dww444:
Ivanka should quit her nepotism job. She shouldn’t be miserable on our behalf. These people are the most expensive “volunteers” in the history of the universe.
Gravenstone
@mrmoshpotato:
Seems the more likely reason.
Immanentize
@dww444:
Thomas Jefferson
Marcopolo
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I think if I lost my leg three times I might want to put one of those rfid tracker thingies on it.
Calouste
@Eolirin: And funnily a decent chunk of their base are people waving their pocket constitutions around. Which, if they have actually read it at all, they don’t really understand.
Gravenstone
@Marcopolo: I initially misread that as Katie Hill and thought she was making one hell of a ‘fuck you’ statement in her fashion choice.
Kay
Because Donald Trump doesn’t have a substantive defense so isn’t presenting one doesn’t make it unfair.
It’s lopsided because the facts are lopsided. If he can find someone to deny all this he’s welcome to provide that person. The only one I can think of is Rudy Giuliani and he’s got his own legal problems.
danielx
About Fucking Time.
Calouste
@Marcopolo: To paraphrase Oscar Wilde: “To lose a leg once may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose it three times looks like carelessness “
Rand Careaga
Slightly O/T (still, an “open thread” after all), but the Washington Monthly “Political Animal” blog appears either to have taken itself behind a paywall without preannouncement, or to have been hacked since last night, since the attempt to access the page this morning brings up a username/password dialog box. Anyone else encounter this?
Kay
@Immanentize:
Oh, by all means! Mount away. Trump’s best witness so far was the lying ambassador and he had to correct and admit a quid pro quo. Are there others? Who? His witnesses can’t be his lawyers. They don’t “count”. She knows that, right?
MattF
From Jen Rubin:
A side-note: I’m starting to think that R waverers are paying attention to Rubin. The specific things she advocates tend to actually happen.
Immanentize
— Thomas Jefferson
Sloane Ranger
Not related to Impeachment and not American so sorry for bringing this up but I had to tell someone.
This morning, at our AmDram rehearsal we were discussing the forthcoming general election and someone brought up the threats that MP’s on both sides of the Brexit debate had received to themselves and their families and how this had led to a number of MP’s, especially women, deciding not to stand again.
I brought up the case of Gina Miller, the businesswoman who had brought the case to give Parliament a say in the exit deal. It had been recently reported that GoFundMe had taken down a page where someone was soliciting donations to raise £10000 to pay a hitman to kill her and the response of one of my colleagues was “I don’t see what’s wrong with a request like that.”
I was gobsmacked and the Director started the rehearsal before I could respond.
Amir Khalid
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
They’re trying to sabotage the impeachment process by pouring bullshit, so to speak, into its tank. It doesn’t matter to them whether the objections they raise are true or even make sense.
dmsilev
@Kay: Trump himself, obviously.
Immanentize
–Thomas Jefferson
Marcopolo
@Gravenstone: Just imagine a world where all the D reps conspired to come to Congress dressed up like Hillary today. Now that would have been something with the votes taking place.
That being said Katie Porter is the member of Congress I’m aware of who seems to have the joie de vivre to celebrate Halloween properly. Congress is such a serious place, they need more of this.
rikyrah
@Kay:
I have gotten a chuckle out of this realization ever since you pointed it out, Kay. Damn near half the committee is made up of Republicans. They could have called their own witnesses – as you so correctly pointed out. They can’t find any willing to go under oath.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: I imagine Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton et al had a few things to say about nepotism. I wonder if Ivanka’s third deputy assistant for child care will see them.
lollipopguild
@MisterForkbeard: And when it comes back and bites them they will cry, piss, and moan like the small stupid children they are. “We are the real victims!”
trollhattan
@Eric NNY:
One cannot control whether howler monkeys will fling poo, just when.
“Time, gentlemen.”
Marcopolo
@Calouste: My interpretation is that some people have a wandering eye, this guy has a wandering leg.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Marcopolo: I don’t do Halloween costumes, mostly because I’m very bad at it. But one of the things I really love about this holiday is the number of people doing their ordinary jobs with a straight face while in costume.
sukabi
@Rand Careaga: LGM for me brings up a centurylink “you haven’t paid your internet bill…
HeleninEire
Fox news has spent the last 2 hours foxsplaining how bad this is for the Democrats.
Amir Khalid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Now I haz a confused. If he lost three legs in Iraq they can’t have all been his own. So whose leg(s) did he lose besides his own?
Citizen Alan
@Sloane Ranger:
You should have slugged him. People who demand to live in a society ruled by violence should get their wish.
schrodingers_cat
If you have Twitter accounts could you retweet
#RestoreSanjayuvacha
RWNJ bots and trolls have managed to get his account suspended for retweeting a poem written by Gorakh Pandey
Here is a link to an English translation of Hang Him
Sanjay Hegde is a lawyer who argues before the supreme court of India and has a popular Twitter account with many followers. One of the sane, liberal voices in the increasing intolerant India.
JoeyJoeJoe
@Raoul: Hillary lost Peterson’s district 60-31 or so. Bill Clinton was the last Democratic presidential candidate to win it. Van Drew took a Republican leaning state senate district some years ago and held it easily, so Democrats were pushing him to run for his congressional district at some point. When the Republican incumbent retired last year, he jumped in the race and Republicans immediately gave up on trying to hold the seat.
Citizen Alan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
I use Halloween as an excuse to wear clothes far more comfortable than I can normally wear in an office environment. Last year, I came as Charlie Brown and wore a yellow t-shirt, black shorts and tennis shoes. This year, I came as a doctor and am presently wearing cotton hospital scrubs and krogs.
kindness
Who are the 2 Democrats who voted No on this? Sounds like Primary baiting to me.
Patricia Kayden
Marcopolo
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: As this is Halloween, maybe a front pager can put up a favorite costume past/present thread where folks can post links to photos of efforts that they really like. I think that would be fun & relaxing. What say you all?
I personally haven’t costumed myself since the last Halloween party I attended which was back when I was in my forties. Perhaps my attempt was so bad all my friends agreed to never hold another Halloween party? I’ve never made that connection before but now that I think about it…
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
— Thomas Jefferson
zhena gogolia
@dww444:
Yeah, Jefferson was an asshole too, Ivanka. What’s your point?
sukabi
@Sloane Ranger: ummmm, think your colleague may be looking for an “off book” gig if he doesn’t see anything wrong with assassination solicitation. ?
joel hanes
Open thread ?
Please help flip Texas.
https://juanitajean.com/ballot-by-mail-program/
zhena gogolia
@Gravenstone:
I have been picturing Katie Porter as the one in the sex scandal all along and thinking it was really out of character.
WaterGirl
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Perhaps we need to issue a civics exam that a kindergartner would be able to pass, then 1st grader, 2nd grader and so forth until we hit one that the Republican politicians cannot pass.
My money says 4th grade, tops. Maybe younger.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
— Thomas Jefferson
Jeffro
@Immanentize: I guess they’re asking for the president* to ‘mount a defense’…prior to being charged? Sure, that makes sense. That’s normal criminal law procedure. Let the accused come in to the station before he’s been formally accused, give his explanation, and accept it.
I mean, from the perspective of the crook, that’s a perfect justice system, right? No wonder he calls it a “perfect call”.
rikyrah
Kavanaugh 2.0
Those mean other lawyers..how dare they not have a high opinion of me. Don’t they know it’s my birthright to be a judge?
Lips so pursed.
…………………
Federal judge nominee breaks down in tears as American Bar Association reveals his fellow lawyers say he is lazy, arrogant, entitled, close-minded – and claim he is unwilling to promise to be fair to the LGBTQ community
One of President Trump’s judicial nominees started weeping in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee Wednesday
Lawrence VanDyke, up for a spot on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, was reacting to a particularly harsh letter from the American Bar Association
Reviewers called VanDyke ‘arrogant, lazy, an ideologue, and lacking in knowledge of the day-today practice including procedural rules’
By NIKKI SCHWAB, SENIOR U.S. POLITICAL REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 19:45 EDT, 30 October 2019 | UPDATED: 08:26 EDT, 31 October 2019
J R in WV
@Sloane Ranger:
Wow. Sociopath, psychopath, too stupid to grasp reality in their mind, or what? I guess “too stupid” can be true for either a sociopath or a psychopath, really. Perhaps the colleague didn’t understand the whole issue? That would be close to “too stupid” with a little ignorant mixed in.
Immanentize
@Jeffro:
Please, let Trump come in, under oath, in public, and answer questions regarding his dealings and graft. Please. But no one need accept it.
But as Kay keeps pointing out — Nah.Gon.Ha.Pen.
Marcopolo
@WaterGirl: Let me refer you to a Colbert Show segment from days of yore wherein Steve Colbert would interview congressmen so they had a chance to display their limited knowledge for the whole world to see. Typical lines of questions included asking bible thumpers to list off the 10 Commandments or Reps who always talked about the Constitution to list off the 10 Amendments that comprise the Bill of Rights.
Better Know A District
mrmoshpotato
@Amir Khalid:
Pouring bullshit into the tank, hehe. I wish Mythbusters had tested that.
Ohio Mom
I love all the ritual, the gavel hitting the table and the invoking of the official wording (“The resolution is adopted…”). It’s like a religious ceremony. Without all the stuff I don’t believe in.
Of course I also like it because
I’ve waited for this exact moment for several years now.
Ladyraxterinok
@Amir Khalid:
Is it in Our Mutual Friend that Dickens writes about the shopkeeper who sells amputated limbs?—and a retired serviceman keeps coming in, sure he has hidden his leg and won’t sell it back to him?
Some of Dickens scenes are truly surreal.
mrmoshpotato
@Marcopolo: Everyone’s favorite 435-part series.
Jeffro
@HeleninEire: The GOP’s epic level of concern trolling is quite telling. Hey Fox, thanks for the ‘thoughts and prayers’, trumpublicans, but we’re going to press ahead with this here impeachment thingy. You know – follow the facts, without fear or favor?
If we’re wrong and he’s innocent and all, well then you’ll get your 2020 landslide and that’ll sure show us, right?
So let’s get started with the public hearings already. Victory awaits you, GOP, right?
;)
rikyrah
@Patricia Kayden:
People need to continue to nail him about this. Because, they changed their policy in the middle of the night with no notice., and have the nerve to posture when folks call them out on it.
Raoul
Holy Mother of Pearl, a Trump/Farage interview is apparently being clipped out now.
Gasoline on a garbage fire. Our ‘special relationship’ is so freakin’ special these days.
Ladyraxterinok
@schrodingers_cat:
What do they find so horrible about this??
Jeffro
@zhena gogolia: I think Katie Hill is giving her last floor speech right now, actually…have to go check on that. Hopefully she is naming names and promising to keep up the fight via other work.
trollhattan
@Marcopolo:
Colbert’s ability to outsmart anybody WRT the contents of The Bible and the LOTR books is mind-boggling, and boy could he ever turn biblethumping politicians into pretzels. Like Jimmy Carter, he literally teaches Sunday school.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@rikyrah: I’m reading a fascinating / horrifying book right now called “The Sociopath Next Door”. It was written a decade before The Era Of Trump but so much of it seems relevant. The author, Martha Stout, makes the case over and over about how unprepared the 96% of us with consciences are to deal with the way that a sociopath, a person without conscience or the ability to make human connections thinks.
Stout identifies one of the primary indicators of sociopathy as the combination of (a) doing terrible things and (b) turning on the crocodile tears and going for pity when cornered. Sociopaths love pity, crave it, and they’re very very good at getting it.
Kavanaugh went for the pity play too, didn’t he? Hmm.
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
Are you sure he can’t lose 3 appendages from the lower part of his body?
Sloane Ranger
@J R in WV: I keep hoping she misheard me. I hate to think someone I know is comfortable with the murder of anyone, even someone whose political positions they despise.
PaulWartenberg
My motherfucker Congresscritter just spammed me at work. Here’s a copy of my email reply:
Dear Congressman Spano:
Your survey email happened to go to my workplace email so I am switching over to this email as my response.
Your one-question survey about the House of Representatives was misleading and an act of fraud. Your question implies that the Impeachment proceedings are partisan when they are in fact a response to our own State Department and intelligence agencies warning us of misconduct and abuse of office coming from Trump’s White House.
Your question also tries to dodge the matter by claiming that the Impeachment matters will block and delay the House from conducting other business and acts of legislation, which that body can CLEARLY do alongside the hearings into Trump’s misdeeds. It’s called MULTITASKING, sir, and you Republicans should look into it.
I am upset that you used my professional email to push this false survey on me, and especially upon my fellow Florida residents who deserve better than the deceit and scorn you heap upon the Sunshine State and upon every American citizen who prefers honest leadership over one that is bought and sold on the foreign markets.
Shame on you, Representative Spano. SHAME.
Signed
Paul Wartenberg
Ex-Republican, Angry Voter, Proud American
JPL
@rikyrah: that will only help him get approved. Kavanaugh tears, Alito’s wife tears and now this one. His nomination was in trouble so he’s just trying something new.
Captain C
@Immanentize: Stephanie Grisham is full of shit and should resign immediately. ‘Nuff said.
Immanentize
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: So did Thomas — “High tech Lynching” and all.
trollhattan
@PaulWartenberg:
Bringing the high heat–well done, sir!
Not that the target will, you know….
Amir Khalid
@Ruckus:
That third appendage is not normally of a size to be mistaken for a leg.
trollhattan
@Immanentize: @Captain C:
I’m guessing there’s a response for every Republican attack on the impeachment process in the form of a verbatim Republican quote from the Clinton impeachment. Back then they were SO CONCERNED with presidential misdeeds and restoring dignity to the White House and also, too, that horrid woman he’s married to. To the archives!
mrmoshpotato
Completely OT but…
mrmoshpotato
@Captain C:
Now do the rest of the Russthuglican party.
gene108
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Don’t get his vote at all. The district flip-flops in Presidential elections between Dems and R’s, but has gone for the D candidate more times than the R candidate this century.
Frank LoBiondo, a Republican, held the seat for 24 years,before his retirement in 2018, and always won handily, even though the district wasn’t always going for the Republican Presidential candidate.
The district is relatively rural, by NJ standards, with a lot of poor communities in it. Not sure what the voter turn out looks like.
Just surprised he though it was the best move for him, rather than trying to energize the Democratic vote.
My rep, Andy Kim (NJ-3), flipped a long time Republican district, by a narrower margin than Van Drew, but he voted for impeachment.
Haydnseek
@Immanentize: What is a high-tech lynching? Do they make a noose out of ethernet cable?
Ohio Mom
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Once you read that book, and are introduced to the idea that sociopaths are not some exotic variation, that it isn’t just serial killers out after prostitutes, that they are already in your life (hopefully on the periphery) — then you can’t unsee it.
People who I couldn’t fathom before, I am now able to say to myself, “Oh, he has quite the streak of sociopathy, doesn’t he?” And then I can make sure to keep them at arm’s length.
Chris Johnson
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
If he’s lost a leg three times and still has one left he’s clearly a pony, and I will follow that adorable fellow anywhere! :D
So, which leg does he have left, then? If it’s a foreleg, he can count like Clever Hans. Which is more than the Republicans can do.
If it’s a hind leg, he can kick the Republicans into next week. Which is more than the Republicans deserve.
(they should have to sit through all of this week. In jail. :) )
gene108
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
George Norcross’s power base is in Camden county (NJ-1). His brother, David, represents the district. I think David was elected with the last 10 years or so. It’s been a solid Democratic district in the 23 years I’ve lived in the area.
George is a political boss. There’s a certain amount of “kiss the ring”, with him. But I don’t know how much his influence extends beyond Camden county.
Van Drew represents districts to the south and east of Camden county, including NJ shore towns.
So I am not exactly sure how or why George Norcross is mixed up with Van Drew, as JVD’s not really working in George’s home turf.
schrodingers_cat
@Ladyraxterinok: The phrase “Hang Him” supposedly. If you ask me its just a pretext to silence dissent by the Sangh-BJP and their echo chamber.
Cheryl Rofer
My Twitter feed is blowing up against Reps. Jeff Van Drew (D-NJ) and Collin Peterson (D-MN), who voted against the impeachment resolution.
LuciaMia
@waspuppet: Be prepared to hear “Fruit from the poison tree” a few hundred times. The dude who decided to make that a talking point must have watched too many episodes of Law & Order.
Chyron HR
@Cheryl Rofer:
Well, the important thing is that Republicans can’t possibly tie them to the impeachment hearings now.
Immanentize
@Haydnseek: Back then, the high tech referred to TV. I think. Thomas just really wanted to say he was a victim of lynching. Ass.
trollhattan
@Chris Johnson:
Can we call him Little Sebastian from now on?
gene108
@Immanentize:
Heh…Tom didn’t have any problems with an aristocracy of Southern plantation owners…
I wonder how far his economic views have set back this country?
PST
Katie Porter can do no wrong in my book. She’s one of the only Reps who should by allowed to question witnesses herself at committee hearings. I don’t care what she wears when she does.
Ohio Mom
@PST: I read somewhere that Katie Porter changed into her work clothes after her grand entrance. Which sounds, pardon the pun, in character for her.
trollhattan
Good grief, Boeing is showing signs of becoming the PG&E of Boeings.
Immanentize
@trollhattan: Bye bye Lil Sebastian
Zelma
I live in Van Drew’s district and I actually know him sort of well. Let’s say he gives me a kiss when we meet and when I sent him a letter about the impeachment issue, he actually called me personally. (The Democratic community in Cape May County is pretty small; we all know one another.) Jeff has always succeeded politically because he has been able to get cross over Republican votes. His state senate district was actually redder than the Congressional district and our county is even redder. (I always point out that CMC is below the Mason-Dixon line.) So his whole political career has been based on treading a fine line between being a Democrat and representing a pretty conservative area.
When he first came out against impeachment, I reminded my fellow liberal Democrats that he votes with us 95% of the time and that he had figured out a way to win the seat. That being said, I think he has created problems for himself with this vote. He can’t really afford to lose the more liberal voters in his district. And right now, they are hopping mad at him. His margin in the last election was smaller that expected even though his opponent got very little party support and was a Trumpian a**shole. So if he loses us, he’s in trouble.
I guess it’s time for another letter.
Martin
@Marcopolo: I busted my ass to get her elected, and she has never disappointed. I also had the good fortune to know her before she got into office.
Goes to show that even in historically red districts, you don’t need to elect some shitty moderate. You can elect a really, really great Democrat.
chopper
@Immanentize:
trump would really dig the idea of mounting a defense if his aides convinced him his daughter changed her name to “a defense”.
waspuppet
@LuciaMia: The guy who has made a point of saying that every chance he gets, like a snotty 12-year-old who just learned a new word and magically finds a way to use it in every conversation for two months, is Kevin McCarthy, who is 1) not a lawyer and 2) the guy who said “I think there are two people Putin probably pays — Rohrabacher and Trump.”
He actually knows what’s going on. But acknowledging it publicly would mean Not Owning the Libs, so he won’t do it.
Zelma
And yes, Van Drew and the local Democratic candidates are tied into the Norcross machine. I don’t like any machines but they are a tradition in NJ politics. Norcross is fairly benign as machine politicos are concerned but he’s clearly used his power to further his own interests. To understand how it works, you have to understand that South Jersey has always felt disrespected by the boys in North Jersey and so if Norcross and his head guy Sweeney can get what we consider to be our “fair share” of the spoils, there are many who don’t complain too loudly.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Ohio Mom:
One of the horrifying aspects was the number: 1 in 25 seems alarmingly high. And her illustrations of how these people behave in ordinary activities like having children or talking to coworkers also made it very real and very disturbing. So yes, we’ve all probably had a lot of contact with sociopaths and many of us have been victimized by them unknowingly.
The pity play is a nice reliable indicator that lets us calibrate our behavior and expectations.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan:
Look Ma! No wings! JFC.
different-church-lady
@Immanentize: Yeah, but at least she’s better at her job (lying) than her predecessor.
Butter emails!!!
Thanks to all who responded to my earlier post. I understand that there are cases out there where a yes vote would be political suicide for the rare Democrat still able too win a ruby red district. I just figured being absent because of kidney issues would be a smarter call than casting an actual nay vote.
Martin
@rikyrah: Not necessarily.
There’s another avenue that’s never been employed. The House can hold the trial in the House and not refer to the Senate and I think the rules just voted on keeps that avenue open. This is why McConnell doesn’t have nearly so strong a hand to play.
So the House can vote on articles of impeachment and immediately move into a trial in the House, find the President guilty, and then refer to the Senate for whether or not to remove after guilt has been established. It would give Pelosi control over the trial, and get a guilty verdict on the record and then force the Senate to determine whether or not a guilty president should be removed from office, which from Pelosi’s perspective might be a moot point if that trial simply renders Trump unelectable. Remember too that Watergate caught dozens of others in those crimes, which again could originate out of the House rather than relying on the Senate.
McConnells hardball tactics with judges may have cost him control of this process. Pelosi surely understands her options here. Trump surely does not. McConnell likely does understand, which I think is why he’s been relatively quiet and open to the process and allowing Senate Intel to do some things. As things stand, I don’t think he’ll have a trial to run.
Joy in FL
@Ohio Mom: Thanks to you and @Ceci n est pas mon nym I just ordered The Sociopath Next Door. I think I’m going to look back at some people in my past with clearer vision. Thanks for the comment about it.
Joy in FL
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Thanks for describing this book. I just ordered it.
Dev Null
@Ohio Mom: Yeah, that was my reaction when I read up on NPD (among which Stout’s excellent book) 10-15 years ago.
Physics has a lot of invariance principles – invariance under rotation, invariance under translation … lots and lots. It can be difficult to realize that people aren’t invariant, where by “invariance” I mean “you can understand them by putting yourself in their situation”. (“Invariance by character symmetry”, if you will.)
-paths aren’t symmetric … they really don’t think the way you think, so trying to understand them that way just leads to confusion.
I didn’t understand that until I had read up on -pathologies.
Joanna Ashmun’s essay on narcissistic traits is good reading on identifying extreme narcissists, somewhat less good on explaining why narcissists are the way they are.
And The Atlantic’s 2013 essay on Lance Armstrong is enlightening.
Dev Null
@Cheryl Rofer: First post-vote question on the lists I’m on: “who’s van Drew’s primary opponent?”
TBF, I asked the question, but still …
Dev Null
@Joy in FL: In Sheep’s Clothing is another good read on various -pathies. It’s focused more on what you might call “run of the mill” pathologies (e.g. extreme narcissism) than on sociopathy / psychopathy, so the two books are (somewhat) complementary. Stout’s writing is crystal clear; Simon’s, well … let’s say it’s, uh, readable… but I found Simon’s insights useful too.
Calouste
@mrmoshpotato: Now is a good time to invest in a champagne bar near Airbus HQ.
karen marie
@Rand Careaga: I haven’t visited there since shortly after Benen left to run the Maddow blog.
Martin
@trollhattan: Cost-cutting our way to global dominance.
Kattails
@PaulWartenberg: NICE.
If only the “Free Press” would follow this elegant, accurate, and pointed example.
Jeffro
Btw front-pagers, Rep Katie Hill’s final speech in the House today really deserves its own post.
Dems have courage, Republicans are complete cowards.
JPL
@Jeffro: Republicans have won to long by cheating. I agree with you about her speech.
J R in WV
Well, our power was out for a couple of hours, heavy rainstorm, back on and reconnected to the Innertubes now. With the news that the House of Representatives has voted for a formal Impeachment Inquiry; and established a formal set of rules for the House Inquiry, I am pretty satisfied with things for this afternoon.
I have been saving a particularly nice bottle of Champagne for just such an occasion, which is now chilling in the recovering refrigerator. Think of the investment I will have to make for the actual vote on the formal Articles of Impeachment in the future!?!?!!!
And now to the pot of beans I have had simmering for lunch.
trollhattan
Second-stupidest man in Congress has thoughts:
Moo
trollhattan
@J R in WV:
Sometimes they’ll kick in a 10% case discount, so a free bottle is leveraged!
Bruce K
@Rand Careaga: I just checked now (2116 Athens time), and it didn’t behave that way for me. Might have been a glitch, or temporary maintenance.
Ohio Mom
@Dev Null: I think it’s important to remember that these pathologies — all traits, really — come in matters of degrees.
Someone could have just enough sociopathy to function quite well as a ruthless businessperson, or just enough narcissism to be a boring braggart know-it-all.
Not that you want to spend very much time with either one, just saying that of you are looking for someone who checks all the boxes to the highest level, you will overlook a lot of them.
That is why the statistic of one-in-25 for sociopathy sounds surprising at first, because our reaction is, “I know a hundred people and none of them are ax murders, let alone four of them.” But broaden what you are looking for, and you see your neighborhood who mistreats his pets, and that manipulative spouse of your high school friend, and so on.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan: Sounds like Devin’s lack of cow sex is affecting his brain.
jeffreyw
@Amir Khalid: Bad case of restless leg syndrome. They have meds for that now.
Mnemosyne
@Dev Null:
IIRC, there’s some evidence that there is a genetic component for all of the Cluster B personality disorders (which includes sociopaths, narcissists, and Borderline Personality Disorder). How you’re raised often determines the severity, so people who are raised in homes with abusive or neglectful parents usually develop worse problems than those with non-abusive parents.
There’s something wrong with the X chromosome on my husband’s father’s side of the family, because ALL of the women in that genetic line are a little … yeah. ?
rikyrah
@Martin:
I did not know this….very interesting…..I hope it happens this way…
Dev Null
@Ohio Mom:
Right, I thought about adding to my comment the qualifier I see in almost all of these books and articles: “it’s a spectrum” … but decided I’d said enough.
IIRC (and it’s been more than 10 years, so maybe not), Stout’s book mostly focuses on the criminal-level sociopathy end of the spectrum, but because “spectrum” I learned a lot about run-of-the-mill pathologies from her book as well. The other book I mentioned focuses (again, IIRC) primarily on NPD-level narcissism.
I forget the numbers, so take this with however much salt you think is appropriate, but I seem to remember reading that 7 or 8 salient characteristics out of 11 or 12 will land you a clinical diagnosis of NPD, so (as you say) you don’t have to check all the boxes to be diagnosed as NPD.
I am talking through my hat, so pay no attention to me, but I was indeed surprised by “1-in-25”, but for a different reason: my recollection is “1-in-6”, but the difference might be that you’re talking about sociopathy while I’m talking about the spectrum from “narcissism” through “personality disorders” (NPD, ASPD, BPD etc) to sociopathy. Or perhaps I’m completely off-base, but still, 1-in-25 seems way low to me.
Further reading that I found quite insightful: source, source, and source. (The 1st and 3rd bloggers have links to their other posts on NPD; the 2nd link is to a compendium of NPD posts.)
Just to be clear, I have no expertise in this area whatsoever … but the descriptions in these various books and links sure match up with people I’ve known. Caveat lector.
Mnemosyne
@Jeffro:
Since the two Katies (Porter and Hill) have apparently been friendly in Congress, I wonder if Porter’s Batgirl costume was in part to distract the Republicans and give them something more “scandalous” to whine about today.
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
Well not in the minds of the rest of us.
Some though, do seem to feel like that one is the biggest. Or at least they act like it.
Mandalay
@Martin:
That’s a doozy, and would leave Trump dripping in loser stink for the election, assuming that the Senate will let him off the hook.
That approach also will also cause our punditocracy to fret about its “fundamental unfairness” and pontificate about how the “optics will be awful for Democrats” as Trump plummets in the polls among independents.
Jeffro
@Mnemosyne: Hmm, could be. I loved Hill’s close-out: “I yield the balance of my time for now, but not forever.”
Meanwhile, Rep Duncan Hunter (R-vape): 5 affairs paid for in various ways with campaign money. HE’s still in Congress.
Matt McIrvin
@Martin: The Constitution says “The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments.” Any “trial” the House put on would just be a stunt with no legal status, and probably perceived as such.
Dev Null
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t know enough about the genetics of PDs to have anything useful to say … your claim makes sense to me, but that’s as far as I can carry the baton.
That comes through in spades in Lance Armstrong’s autobiography (the first one, if there are more than one): distant, abusive father … so much so that (IIRC) Armstrong took his mother’s 2nd(?) married name, rather than his father’s name (because he didn’t want his father getting “credit” for his cycling wins.)
It’s clearly true with the Trump extended family.
It’s easy to see that both “nature and nurture” can be passed down “even unto the seventh generation”, but untangling the two components … I don’t have the impression that that’s been even a theoretical possibility until very recently (2-3 years?)
For now I assume that privacy issues prevent correlating online genetic databases with psychiatric diagnoses (possibly with exceptions for extreme cases.) And there’s the additional issue that Ohio Mom raises, that “you needn’t check all the boxes”… which complicates correlation even further.
Yeah, we see similar correlations in my family, but with ADHD. Definitely genetic. :-)
Ksmiami
@rikyrah: fucking snowflakes all. I look forward to confronting these asshats in person – weak, cowardly
Immanentize
@rikyrah:
Under the principle, all things not prohibited are allowed,” this could happen.
But it never will. Never.
Gravenstone
@trollhattan: Every day, in every way it’s pure projection from these morons.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
@Dev Null:
I believe that a lot of human characteristics are genetics based but don’t forget that more than one genetic variation can easily be present at the same time. And that not all the variations are known and the combinations of variations even less well known. And the combinations, can complicate things far more.
We know a lot, but not everything.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Watching the press is amazing right now, the Official Narrative(tm) from our media betters that since none of the Republicans voted for the impeachment inquiry this is a devastating political defeat for the Democrats. Yet, it might be my personal bias but the quotes are endless streams of the Republicans whining and screaming like idiots while the Democrats are being sober and serious. This just feels like these prescription drug addled, wngnut media CEOs are screaming at their staffs to quit picking on Trump, just do what they are told and stop saying this will sound batshit nuts and the their staffs gleefully doing that, like that Wall street Journal Ed that “Trump’s way too much of an idiot to pull this off”.
Apparently it won’t be just the president talking to paintings this time, but a whole demographic.
mrmoshpotato
@rikyrah:
Awww…..would several punches to the nuts cheer him up? How about a snowball for the snowflake?
Matt McIrvin
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Public support for impeachment is down a fraction, and if you look at the breakdown, most of that is just the few wavering Republicans reverting to Trump loyalty. Not a big surprise. All they’ve got to do is remain utterly publicly adamant that up is down, and it signals people with affinity to them that it’s OK to believe that up is down, that they should in fact believe that as a test of loyalty.
In the end almost every Republican in America is going to go their grave insisting that Trump did nothing wrong and is a stable genius, that he didn’t do it and if he did do it it turns out it was right and awesome after all. Their politicians are going to keep doing this until it doesn’t work for them.
Dev Null
@Ruckus:
Yep. Every few months there’s an announcement in Nature or PNAS or Science or whereever that some sequence of junk DNA … isn’t junk after all. (I don’t have the receipts, but it’s the impression I have.)
Still, with online DNA databases (er, family genealogy databases) covering an ever-increasing fraction of the population, we’re getting to the point that it should be possible to tease out gross correlations.
I think… but I defer to people who actually know what they’re talking about.
What Crick, Watson, Wilkens, and Rosalind Franklin hath wrought!
(Incidentally, and to your point, I recall reading within the past year or two an article – maybe in The Atlantic – saying that different online databases sometimes / often / usually (I don’t remember) produce mutually contradictory heritage analyses. eg one website says your ancestors came from Finland; the next says Romania. Making up the specifics, but that was the gist.)
Martin
@Matt McIrvin:
It depends on what the desired remedy is. Once the House approves articles of impeachment, then Trump is impeached. The Senate doesn’t need to pass the ⅔ vote. That vote is the vote to remove. Pelosi may not seek that vote. The Constitution says that the extent of the impeachment penalty is removal from office. Pelosi has said she wants to see Trump in jail. She may choose to pursue this path instead, focusing instead on contempt of Congress and lining up criminal referrals to either the next Atty General or to any relevant state AGs – things the Senate need not be involved in.
This way Trump gets impeached, remains in office, and the House proceeds to pursue charges to be levied after office. The Senate still gets the impeachment case and can run their trial over there in parallel to the House’s separate efforts. If nothing else, it draws a contrast to how McConnell/Roberts may be protecting Trump over how the House is doing things, where they can continue to surface witnesses and evidence.
2liberal
@Martin:
got a link for that ?