Almost 50 years in politics. Why are they so bad at this?
Hunter Biden, son of the former vice president and 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden, will be leaving the board of BHR Equity Investment — a private equity fund backed by Chinese state-owned entities — at the end of the month, Bloomberg reports…
“Hunter always understood that his father would be guided, entirely and unequivocally, by established U.S. policy, regardless of its effects on Hunter’s professional interests. He never anticipated the barrage of false charges against both him and his father by the President of the United States,” Biden’s lawyer said in a statement.
Live shot of Bidens anticipating the arrival of campaign attacks:
There’s a debate coming up. If Joe Biden doesn’t point out that the Trumps were revealed as tax cheats, that they’ve been banned from operating charities in New York because of stealing, that they are collecting emoluments daily and operating US domestic and foreign policy as an influence-peddling racket, he might as well hang it up.
joel hanes
He should hang it up.
debbie
Hunter’s turning into Hillary’s emails before our very eyes.
germy
I wonder if Gabbard is in or out.
And Joe should be asked how many of his republican friends across the aisle have come to his defense. Comity!
Chyron HR
@debbie:
But why do it before the primary starts?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
It’s one thing to have a blind spot for your kids, Biden has a cult about his family. I remember years ago reading about how he says things like “My word as a Biden”, it was presented as charming, I found it a bit off-putting. He has a cult about his family that is different in degree but maybe not in kind with the Romneys, maybe it’s more like the Bush clan. The presidency is the Biden destiny. It was supposed to be Beau, it can’t be Hunter, it has to be Joe.
Also the gossip has always been that Biden looked down on the Clintons for their buck-raking. I think that angle even made into the stories he fed Maureen Dowd around the time his son died, something else I found off-putting. The hypocrisy grates on me.
debbie
@Chyron HR:
Sowing chaos.
rikyrah
@germy:
Only if she doesn’t have to answer any Syria questions??
oatler.
The dinosaurs were quite capable until the snows came; then they hunkered down.
oldster
And, sure: the press is terrible, and hammers Dems for trivial infractions while letting Reps commit felonies in broad daylight.
But smart Dems know that, and have priced it into their strategies.
Biden is not a smart Dem.
He’s just a walking pinata by now. I don’t know; maybe he’s helping Liz by drawing the fire? It’s still painful to watch.
Chyron HR
@debbie:
Yes, but contrary to a certain person’s posts here, there is no Bernie-style Cult of Biden ready to burn America down if he doesn’t get his coronation.
Marcopolo
I’ll be watching the debate Tuesday night. If I had to make a bet on it, I’d say Tulsi shows up–I figure her calculations show that she’ll be able to milk more attention out of being on stage than off. Especially if she attacks Warren or Biden, which c’mon, is almost guaranteed to happen.
I am curious, though. How many other jackals are considering watching the debate in real time?
germy
@Marcopolo: I’ve watched every debate in real time. My wife actually takes notes, that’s how into it she is.
germy
@rikyrah: I’m surprised she doesn’t have talking points ready to go.
She was asked some hard questions on NPR (surprising, I know) and she was irritated, but had some ready answers.
Just Chuck
Biden’s the one candidate who could actually lose to Trump. He’s not only compromised as a triangulating centrist, he’s just plain lousy at campaigning.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Marcopolo: @germy: I admit I don’t watch. They drag on too long, I think most of the people up there are deluded no-hopers or trouble-makers; the best-case-scenario for 2021 is Joe Manchin and Doug Jones have an effective veto over legislation, so I don’t really see the point of all the sniping and back-biting and trying to score points with maximalist sloganeering. There are two candidates I tend to prefer, but I’m team broken-glass. I’ll open my wallet when the rest of you put up a candidate
NotMax
Blech.
germy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I confess I dozed off towards the end of the last one. But I get drowsy most evenings.
(And then I’m wide awake 3am)
RepubAnon
Joe Biden is the pundits’ choice: a nice guy who can be painted as a wimpish, gaffe-prone Democratic machine politician when he loses to Trump. They’ve already gotten their pieces written – sort of like Steve Martin’s weatherman character in LA Story.
As many have noted, when Trump insults large portions of the country, he’s speaking his mind. If a Democrat says something partisan, it’s something that guarantees their inevitable defeat next November.
debbie
@Chyron HR:
He doesn’t need a cult; he’s got a grip on anyone who thinks there’s a chance Trump could be reelected.
MattF
Also, Trump’s nepotism. So blatant, and no one ever really takes it on. I suppose the fact that Trump favors his little girl can be viewed as sorta positive, and pointing out that it’s not, actually, (teeth clenched here) could be viewed as creepy… Sigh.
Leto
Christ I’m loathe to use this term, but I feel like previous to Trumpov it really was a “both sides” do this. Your family members might have gotten an extra leg up on the business side and it was basically overlooked. My kids are doing it, your kids are doing it, US law says it’s ok even it does look ethically questionable… it was one of those “unwritten” rules that unless you glaringly fucked up, they just left it alone. As with everything else Trumpov dropped a nuke on this “norm”, and here we are. Moving forward if we can craft stronger rules on this, good.
Marcopolo
@germy: That is awesome! I’m actually the only person in my cohort (~12 folks) who’s following them. Maybe I’ll get out to a watch party this time. There appear to be 4 in my area. I’m thinking the one sponsored by 4 Hands Brewing will have the best beer.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MattF: trump has always benefitted from the vague sense that he’s not a real president, he’s kind of a cartoonish, accidental president, so none of this– from his deals with Turkey to Russian cooperation in his campaign/s to his kids’ cheap grifts– is really happening. But it is, including this:
But they’ll just head to Europe, so who cares?
gene108
Joe Biden is bad at running for President.
He flamed out early in his other attempts, without this kind of bullshit barrage.
Maybe third time isn’t the charm for him?
zhena gogolia
@debbie:
They’ll find something no matter who the candidate is.
mrmoshpotato
@Marcopolo:
Then may the Syria/Assad questions rain down.
germy
@Marcopolo: What bothers me about the debates isn’t the candidates. It’s the moderators with their republican talking points.
Chuck Todd had no business moderating the first one.
Leto
@MattF: The WH lawyer he installed that said the Executive doesn’t cover the Office of the President, so that’s why he can ignore nepotism rules, have Nepotism Barbie and Ken grifting around, and it’s all ok. Someone posted that last night and it was such a tortured interpretation.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@germy: If you watch in real time, you and your wife are stronger people than I am.
mrmoshpotato
@Just Chuck: Biden definitely is unprepared for the shit flinging that’ll come from Dump after the conventions too.
mrmoshpotato
@Marcopolo: I need a lot of dead-enders to drop out first.
germy
@Dorothy A. Winsor: We just like seeing the candidates unfiltered. Rather than “interpreted” and “quoted” and selectively edited by the beltway press. We also like to heckle the dead-enders.
Amir Khalid
@Leto:
What?! Even I know that’s nonsense. Where did he say it? If it was in court I’m sure the judge would have smacked him down hard.
Just Chuck
@Leto: I dunno, they’re basically his personal staff, not his cabinet. I’m not sure Congressional oversight needs to extend that far. It was just — here’s that word again — a long-held norm that POTUS would exercise discretion in such hires and not give them cabinet-level power.
So while I’m not up for letting Traitor Turtle and his cohort block our next POTUS’s personal staff appointments, I am up for ethics laws with teeth that apply to ALL branches of government.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Why did he bother to stir himself to go on the show?
ETA: Looks like Nichols had the same question, and an answer
The O’Bros were pretty scathing about Mattis’ book, saying roughly: This is not a book, this is a flyer your speakers bureau sends out to prospective corporate retreat clients
mrmoshpotato
@germy:
Chuckles has no business moderating anything, especially Press The Meat.
Jim Parish
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Is Mattis aware of the number of generals who have served as President?
Marcopolo
@germy: Agreed. I think it was Kay who said around the time of the second debate that she wished they’d just bring the League of Women Voters back to administer the debates.
In case anyone is wondering, the moderators for this debate are Anderson Cooper, Erin Burnett, and Mark Lacy (NYT national editor).
Aside from the “Do you think President Trump should be impeached?” question which we all know is coming, what else do you think the moderators will ask? I mean it’s not like there is a dumpster fires worth of burning shit happening right now that they could draw from.
Or, as someone trying to figure out who to vote for, what would you like them to ask the candidates?
Just Chuck
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: My dad retired as a Lt. Colonel, and one reason he told me he didn’t go for full-bird was “I don’t want to get into politics”. Mattis is giving the “I’m just a soldier who follows orders” schtick, trying to have it both ways. I don’t entirely disagree with him, but he’s not acting in an official role anymore.
FFS he has a book to hawk. It’s not just disingenuousness, it’s outright hypocrisy.
Villago Delenda Est
Joe should quit the campaign and go back to his driveway and wash that bitchin’ Camaro. That’s what he should do.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Just Chuck: When he endorsed trump’s pre-midterm deployment of troops to the border, he pretty much showed his partisan ass. I am genuinely confused as to why he chose to make such a show of continuing to say nothing. Saying it’s about slow book sales and low speaking fees feels cheaply cynical, but it makes a kind of sense.
NotMax
@Marcopolo
In all honesty, haven’t the foggiest which channel number is CNN and not sure where I stashed the brochure from the cable company with their listings. May listen to it on the radio. That wacko Williamson won’t be there to eat up time better spent on anyone else is nice, though.
Villago Delenda Est
@RepubAnon: Hence my nym.
Wipe them out. All of them.
Just Chuck
Pretty sure most people with cable don’t remember what channel number most stations are on either. It’d be like memorizing the IP address of Balloon Juice
chopper
turns out trump’s ‘sleepy joe’ nickname actually has a basis in reality.
Marcopolo
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Mattis is trying to maintain a certain level of relevance (by making appearances) while protecting his own grifting (by not saying anything to piss off Trump) like being on the board of General Dynamics. If he had any scruples he’d be explaining why Trump’s policies in the Middle East (including Syria) led him to resign as Sec of Defense.
mrmoshpotato
@NotMax:
Has she dropped out yet to spend more time with her healing rocks?
Marcopolo
@NotMax: @Just Chuck: Um, folks…typically there is a guide function that comes with your cable. You hit this button on the remote and you get a listing for what is on each channel, both the content provider and the actual programming that is playing. Makes it easy to find shows & tape them.
But then maybe you don’t watch much cable period :)
mrmoshpotato
@chopper: And Dump’s trash base would just eat up “Uhhhh Sleepy Joe, you’re a total loser. My hands are enormous, and my pe**s is tremendous. Sad!”
dogwood
Turning the Biden family into crooks will probably be a hard sell to a big chunk of American voters who have long-held impressions of Joe and his family as essentially good people. It plays well to Democratic voters who hate any Democrat who isn’t far to the left of center, however. We’re gonna see plenty of foreign interference, foreign money, and voter suppression in 2020, but I predict one of the issues that the Republicans will make work for them is the abolishing of private insurance that the bulk of candidates raised their hands for. Nuanced explanations of how that might work will never cut through and it will be hard to overcome the fear mongering that will ensue. For the life of me I will never understand why they wouldn’t run on improving Obamacare. Just when the ACA was no longer a political liability for Democrats, they decided to shit-can the whole thing and start over again. Not a good political move.
Marcopolo
I gotta get on with my day but a new “Battleground States” poll just dropped. As always, take individual polls with a hefty amount of salt.
CBS News Battleground Tracker: Warren extends lead across early states, New Hampshire and draws even with Biden in Iowa
If yer wanting the actual numbers, go to the article :)
And have a good rest of the day.
Edit: Sorry too good not to mention. They asked a question regarding whether people thought candidates were too old to run–2% of respondents said they thought Sanders & Biden were too young!!!
mrmoshpotato
@dogwood:
Amen!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m a bloodless pragmatist. I’m far more concerned about Joe Biden’s inability to respond to these attacks than I am the attacks themselves. If I thought Biden had any political game beyond “As I always said to Barack… excuse me… as I always said to President Obama…” I’d be all in for a return to normalcy. I’m very worried about Harris and Warren having shot themselves in the foot by chasing the Bernie cultists, most specifically on health insurance reform. I think it’s stupid to put the AZ and ME Senate seats, and the electoral votes of WI, PA and MI, at risk for slogans that make us feel bold and righteous. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna pretend Joe Biden doesn’t make me nervous when he’s asked about race relations in this country and starts talking about “poor kids” and record players.
zhena gogolia
@dogwood: @mrmoshpotato:
DOUBLE AMEN! It’s very distressing. And driven by Bernie.
Jay
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Biden lack of willingness to confront Trump on Trump’s hypocrisy is enough for me, Decades of nice polite liberals is enabling this mess with the Right.
Leto
@Amir Khalid: NotMax linked this in last night’s thread:
I linked his comment so you can check the source. How well would that stand up in court? Idk, most of his rulings have been tossed but I simply don’t know. No one has taken him to court on that. Also read below.
@Just Chuck: 5 US Code [weird symbol] 3110 says that he can’t hire family, even as “advisors”. It’s the anti-nepotism law that was established after John and Robert Kennedy. Trumpov’s DoJ initially said it was all ok (reversing decades of DoJ legal opinion) and then reversed itself. Politico article: DOJ releases overruled memos finding it illegal for presidents to appoint relatives: The legal opinion that cleared the way for Kushner and Ivanka Trump appointments reversed earlier advice. One of the conclusions is that, like you said, the law needs further tightening.
MomSense
Maybe we aren’t the best judges of who is most electable. Biden continues to beat all the other candidates in match ups against trump. I’ve also experienced in real life talking to people who identify as independents and people who vote in presidential elections, but who aren’t news junkies, that they like Biden- gaffes and all. He has a bit of Teflon about him I think, which may prove extremely valuable given what is going to be thrown at our nominee.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@dogwood: That’s not the intention of these attacks or why the press latches on to them though; this allows Republican voters to tell themselves that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans, just the Democrats are sneaker about it.
It’s all about manumitting the fiction of the validity of the Conservative Movement in the face of almost two decades between the GW Bush, Oklahoma and Trump it doesn’t work.
mad citizen
It’s still very early in the presidential campaign process, and only one candidate will be selling herself to all of the voters. At this point, if the poll responders are putting health insurance in their voting/utility function (which I kind of doubt), it doesn’t seem to be hurting anyone since Trump is polling around 40 and our’s are all around 50. I don’t see any issue that will stop a blue tsunami next year. People are pissed off.
This isn’t an issue that will move many (any?) from a D to trumpov.
MomSense
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Except we know from the research that countering, which involves repeating the smears, actually has the effect of reinforcing the smears. Trying not to engage is smarter – if you are listening to what the neuro linguists and other experts are finding in their studies.
Barry
@dogwood: “Turning the Biden family into crooks will probably be a hard sell to a big chunk of American voters who have long-held impressions of Joe and his family as essentially good people. It plays well to Democratic voters who hate any Democrat who isn’t far to the left of center, however”
This was Trump’s first attack, and easy to anticipate. Joe was still caught by surprise.
Leto
@Villago Delenda Est: You know he and Obama have a pretty successful private detective gig going on the side, right? Bitchin’ Camero, Obama riding shotgun, bringing down bad guys… not a bad gig! /s
Aleta
The direct questions should ask everyone about Syria and T’s foreign policy debacles … but I hope Buttigieg in the lead and Warren, Biden, Harris and Castro as a group hammer this morning’s news:
JoyceH
Wait – so Hunter Biden “never anticipated the barrage of false attacks”? And apparently neither did Dad or he would have given him a heads up a long time ago. So I’ve just got to ask – in what sun-drenched and dewy segment of the multiverse have these folks been living? And how do you get there? I’ve always wanted a quaint forest cottage where the little woodland creatures do your housework.
WaterGirl
Good morning, Baud, wherever you are.
WaterGirl
@Leto: I am halfway through that book. Has book 2 been released yet?
JDM
Why are they so bad at this? Well, it’s not the complete answer, but to start with, when you’re a white guy, you don’t have to be so good.
WaterGirl
@JoyceH: How can you make it through 8 years of the Obama presidency and still not comprehend that the rules have changed and that the only place that political comity exists is inside your head? That alone proves that Biden does not have what it takes to be President, In a simpler time, maybe, but not now, when the political world moves at the speed of light, and the President needs to be able to do so, as well.
Jay
laura
There isnt a single Republican in my extended family and in-laws. We’re hardcore New Deal Democrats and being a Union member on a Union job has been how we clawed our way into the working class and home ownership.
Some of us are diehard political junkies, while others are straight ticket voters comfortable enough with our party to feel there isn’t a need to waste time on the nuances of single payer or ACA. The ones who are in the non- political junky group favor Joe Biden solely because he’s familiar and they trust that his familiarity will garner enough votes to get to 271. He’s the default to a sense of safety.
I’m team Kamala. She ready.
germy
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JDM: Cokie Roberts once made a funny joke (no really, she delivered it well) about every Senator having their bathroom mirror painted so that they saw themselves standing behind a presidential podium every morning. Biden is surrounded, and has been for thirty years, by people like Ed Rendell and Dick Harpootlian* telling him he’d be a better president than whoever was actually serving, including Obama. And I think he believed it, even– for all the public protestations of love and brotherhood– about Obama.
* I don’t know who he is, beyond the fact that he’s a bigwig in the South Carolina Dem Party and he’s quoted in just about every third article about Joe Biden.
ETA: and Ed Rendell and Dick Harpootlian both think they’d be better presidents than Biden
Just Chuck
@Marcopolo: That was kinda my point. These days you don’t even need the guide, you just hold down the mic button and say the channel name. I cut the cord long ago, and whenever I find myself watching cable somewhere else, I’m annoyed as can be at the ads. I pay for YouTube Premium so as to not get the ads there either.
And uh…. “tape”?
Feathers
Joe Biden IS Martha Coakley. Fight me.
I mean, I like Joe Biden. You don’t get far in machine-in-the-good-sense politics without being damn likable. But I am also reminded of Sharon Stone’s prescient comment that “You can only sleep your way to the middle.”
Jay
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: You are right. Biden isn’t the first, second, or third choice for the majority of people on this blog, so people feel like it’s okay to pile on. This is the time when the narrative is being created. Biden is an incoherent nepotist (Gee, who does that sound like? Both sides do it. Amirite?) Warren improperly tried to take advantage of affirmative action and has trouble connecting with POC (We never see that here on B-J, do we?). We should know better.
Another Scott
@dogwood: Meh. It’s still very early.
And any significant changes to the health care system, including making Obamacare less expensive to the bottom half of the population, are going to take years of hearings, (as Mayhew tells us) years of rule-making and comments, years of court battles.
I don’t think aspirational comments about how the candidates would want to fundamentally change the system is necessarily bad at this stage of the process. We’re not electing a king, and whoever wins (even with a supermajority in each house and a 17 seat SCOTUS) isn’t going to be able to change things by fiat.
Talking about big changes is an essential step along the road to actually changing public opinion and ultimately implementing big changes.
We all know big changes are needed. I think we all know that Bernie’s maximalist plans are never going to happen. Instead, it will be a slow process and at the end of it there will still be a place for private insurance for corner cases (and more).
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
mrmoshpotato
@MomSense:
Hoping any attacks slide off Biden like water off a duck’s back is a terrible strategy. Look back to 2016. The most qualified, prepared candidate was ripped apart not just by the media, but by bullshit conspiracy theories too.
“Hillary coughed. Is she going to die?”
“She’s running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria basement!”
“And where’s this basement? We’re at the pizzeria. Show me.”
“Benghazi!”
Barbara
@Just Chuck: Mattis is following the Colin Powell playbook — trust me because I’m a general when he wants you to do something, and then, I’m just following civilian orders when it comes time to explain himself. Go home and retire or else stop avoiding accountability for your evident failure.
germy
@mrmoshpotato: And Kerry thought it was beneath him to respond to the swiftboaters.
Cacti
We can’t all be as clever as the Harvard hotshot who attached herself to a healthcare plan opposed by 59% of voters.
MomSense
@Omnes Omnibus:
I guarantee if Warren is the nominee we will be seeing those attacks and no matter how many times we try to push back, the taking advantage of affirmative action is what will stick. It will be the butter emails of 2020.
My personal hope that we won’t resort to the defense that is terribly insulting and offensive to native Americans, namely that the DNA test in any way vindicated her claims. Let’s not cause more harm to our most vulnerable Americans by deploying that insult.
patrick II
@Just Chuck:
I agree with that. It puzzles me as to why Trump is going after him so hard so early.
MomSense
@mrmoshpotato:
Unfortunately Hillary never had the protective coating her husband had. It does matter. Politics isn’t logical or reasonable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy: I thought Kerry would be the last Dem candidate who would buy into the idea of the Beltway Chattering Class as an ally. I’m ready to go all in for Biden, and I’m on record as thinking Nancy Pelosi is a backroom pol of historic standing, but the fact that neither one seems to grok (just for starters) the insidious nature of Maureen Fucking Dowd…
Jay
MomSense
@germy:
I had a classmate on his campaign. They did try to counter it. Then they found that countering it only helped it stick. Like I said, countering isn’t always the best way to deal with the smears. It isn’t fair but that’s the way it is.
Matt McIrvin
@MomSense:
The gaps get narrower and narrower in every poll, though, and they seem to just track how well the candidates are doing in the primary. The ones who are stuck down in single digits tend to also poll poorly against Trump, and, for instance, Elizabeth Warren had that problem until recently–but now that she’s either first or a strong second in most of the primary polls, she also is one of the strongest candidates in the head-to-head polls.
I don’t think the head-to-heads are giving us any information beyond the primary polling. You could imagine a situation in which Democratic primary voters are so out of touch with America that the strongest primary candidate is a weaker-than-average general election candidate, but we don’t seem to have that situation now. I see a lot of “Democrats are walking into a trap” speculation about Warren but there’s not a lot of concrete evidence for it.
SenyorDave
@patrick II: I agree with that. It puzzles me as to why Trump is going after him so hard so early.
Trump thrives off hatred. He truly lives for it. He also sees that the Hunter Biden thing works, plus he can talk about his drug issues. He knows most of the media will normalize his behavior and say it is Trump being Trump.
mrmoshpotato
@Just Chuck: “Janet! CNN me!”
“Stop abusing the English language. CNN is not a verb.”
Jay
Another Scott
@mrmoshpotato: Hillary lost because of Comey and voter suppression. And she still got more votes than Donnie.
We know it’s not all messaging and strategy. A lot of things are out of our control. But we can fight to make sure the voting rules are followed and our people get out to vote. We need to work on things that actually matter and that we can influence in concrete ways. We know the MSM, FB, T, and all the rest are slanted against us – we don’t have to play on their playing field.
Cheers,
Scott.
Leto
@WaterGirl: Yes!!! I haven’t started it yet but it’s near the top of the pile of “to read” ?
debbie
@MomSense:
Did anyone ask those scientists how that worked out for John Kerry?
Another Scott
@germy: I don’t know why this meme is so powerful. My recollection is that Kerry did respond on multiple occasions.
E.g. https://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/20/kerry.swiftboat/
Cheers,
Scott.
Jay
Ruckus
@MomSense:
Biden smiles, has an endearing back story, went home to his family every night, and when you attack him, he defends himself. He makes gaffs like a lot of people do and doesn’t get angry about it. He seems like someone you wouldn’t mind hanging out with. He’s a likable guy. The friendly, no touchy grandfather.
Now the other side.
None of the above is how well or badly he does his job, his actual performance. His political history isn’t all that great, Mr. MBNA, two aborted go no where runs for president, working across the aisle – to get what done. Is he all smile and no substance? And as someone in the same decade of life as he is, I’m going to assert once again, he’s too old.
MomSense
@Matt McIrvin:
The gaps get narrower and narrower because Biden has been the front runner, taking lumps from his democratic contenders and now having spent a month getting the trump, Russia, media bullshit. None of our potential nominees will escape this treatment.
The thing that concerns me most is how so many Dems are thinking we should fall in line waaaay too early. This is not the primary season for that. Keeping our options open is the smart play this time.
PJ
@MomSense: Christ, stop repeating Republican talking points. Warren never claimed that she was a member of any tribe or used it to get a job, all she said was that she had grown up being told that she had some Native American ancestry (as apparently many people in Oklahoma do), and the DNA test showed that, in fact, she did.
debbie
@MomSense:
I’m surprised to read that they countered the swiftboaters. It must have been in hushed tones because none of it made it out to Ohio.
mrmoshpotato
@germy: Yeah! As much as I like the sentiment of Michelle Obama’s “When they go low, we go high,” Eric Holder while speaking at a Stacey Abrams campaign stop was a lot more practical, “When they go low, we kick ’em.”
MomSense
@debbie:
I had a classmate high up in his campaign. The more they responded, the more the swiftboating stuck.
BTW he won that election. Has everyone forgotten fucking Ohio? They had evidence of cheating. There’s a whole documentary about it. There were convictions in Cuyahoga County.
Kattails
@Just Chuck: Agree with everyone’s points about stronger ethics laws going forward, but would quibble slightly with the word “teeth”. I would make it, especially for this crowd, “stronger ethics laws with snarling fangs and unsheathed claws…”.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jay: The “President” is a total amateur at EVERYTHING. Especially military matters.
Jay
MomSense
@PJ:
Fuck all y’all. Apparently you lack reading comprehension.
debbie
@MomSense:
Not I! They moved my polling location to a place where I had to stand on line in the rain for two hours just to get inside the door. OSU had one voting machine for ALL students. Grrr.
patrick II
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The thing is Trump knows this. He has said that the countries (in Europe) that were home to many of the ISIS fighters would not take them back (big surprise). So, letting them go may was a foreseeable problem, but no skin off of his back. It was a problem other people wouldn’t solve for him, now it’s not his problem anymore, so it’s ok. It’s ok with Putin too. Presidentin’ ain’t too hard if your Presidentin’ skills include: fuck it, it’s not my problem anymore.
mrmoshpotato
@MomSense: I don’t think Bill and Hillary’s presidential runs can be compared. Even with Gingrich calling Chelsea ugly back in the 90’s, etc, we’re in a whole different world of Republican ratfucking now. (And outsourced foreign crazy-pants trash.) And I don’t think Biden realizes that in the least.
Jay
In moderation for hashtag abuse in a twitter quote,
To sum up,
– the US is leaving Syria completely,
– ISIL is lose and free,
– the Turks and their pet jihadis, are driving everyone out,
– the SDF and their allies will now be protected/partnered with Assad, Iran and Russia.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@mrmoshpotato: I think that’s true, but it’s also true that some candidates (the evidence suggests white, em-penised ones) do get away with shit others don’t .
I have a pet theory that the MSM spent 20 years trying to get revenge on HRC to get over the self-loathing they felt for falling, at some level, for Bubba (applies to the Old Ones, who set the tone for the up and comers)
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Some people form an opinion of the world around them at a young age and hold that vision no matter what. I find that more people take an opposite view than Joe Biden does, theirs is that the world sucks and fucks them over most every day. Joe is upbeat. Real life has treated him about the same as many other people, his working life for decades that hasn’t been all that bad. His working hours mostly are not horrible, his pay is not bad at all, he’s not worried about the steel mill killing him, the mine caving in, the machines cutting off fingers/hands, he isn’t directly responsible for someone’s life, he doesn’t have to wash up to get his train pass out of his pocket, etc. As jobs go his adult working life hasn’t been bad.
Jay
@patrick II:
Some 8,000 of the estimated 70,000 ISIL are “Westerners”. Some will head home , many won’t make it.
So that leaves some 62,000 locals, other Middle Easterners, South Asians, North Africans.
mrmoshpotato
@Another Scott: I agree on working on the “kitchen table issues” but there’s still going to be a barrage of garbage thrown at the nominee, and that can’t just be ignored like it’s not going to possibly influence enough people in enough states to have 4 more years of Dump.
Chyron HR
@Cacti:
It’s going to be wild when Warren starts eating into Biden’s African-American base and you guys flip over to the “Ni**er votes shouldn’t count because they’re too dumb to self-govern!” page of the Berniebro playbook.
J R in WV
@germy:
Was there every anything more hateful that elderly white women at the Republican National Convention wearing Band-aids with purple hearts on them? No, never anything worse than that!
Putting down a real hero, by people who never served in any capacity. Despicable, but it worked on a few too many people.
WaterGirl
@Leto: That’s fun! I didn’t know it was out yet. I liked the cover of the first book much better than the new cover, but I applaud the person who decided that Barack should be in a tan suit!
PJ
@Ruckus: You’re right that his working life has been fairly cushy, but I would say that losing your wife and daughter to a drunk driver, and adult son to cancer, is probably a worse hand than most people encounter nowadays. Since the advent of antibiotics, most people expect they won’t have to bury their children, and if they have to bury their spouses, it will be at the end of a long life.
Cacti
@Chyron HR:
Yep. Any day now, Warren will start generating enthusiasm among groups other than college-educated whites. The brain trust at BJ hath declared it so.
Never heard that promise from internet lefties about a candidate with narrow appeal before.
patrick II
@Jay:
That’s not his problem either.
mrmoshpotato
@Kattails: Velociraptor ethics laws! :)
J R in WV
@Chyron HR:
That’s pretty near Pie-safe quality work there. Not sure I’m ever heard non-KKK folks make that point before. Maybe I misunderstand what’s being said, not going to attempt to penetrate this logic, tho.
Kent
@germy:
How the fuck does the DNC not do a better job of running these debates. Allowing the “raise your hand” questions was incredibly criminally stupid, and for the candidates to go along with it as well instead of saying: I’m willing to give you my answer on that topic but it is more than a one-word answer.
The debates will get coverage regardless, even if they are held on youtube.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
I often wonder if people really know how a bill becomes law and how that law is enforced and changed/improved. I mean the day to day stuff not who votes for/against it. It’s a long slog for most laws, with lots of detours, stops, rebuilding along the way from idea to the last signature. The house has passed over 100 bills that most of us would like, at least from the names. I wonder how many of those really are expected to ever get anywhere, but are actually a proof of life for the voters that will never see a presidential signature. And weren’t even expected to. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be but that they probably are not actually very acceptably written to be laws. And maybe they actually are. We’ll probably never know. My point is that most of us really don’t get the law making process.
Kathleen
@dogwood: @mrmoshpotato: @zhena gogolia: Triple Quadruple Amen.
I too have been puzzled by Warren’s and Harris’ jump to M4A with barely a nod to ACA. I do think both have walked that back to some degree? Bernie’s BS not a mystery. He criticized everything Obama did.
Mike in NC
Woody Harrelson has twice played Joe Biden on SNL and it’s a pretty good parody of Uncle Joe.
Kathleen
@laura: Interesting perspective. Thank you.
Jay
Leto
@WaterGirl: Right? Little touches like that (tan suit) are what continue to drive them crazy, while putting a smile on ours. ?
Ruckus
@patrick II:
My first guess as to what trump will do or is doing is, does it have anything to do with President Obama? Joe Biden was his VP, so yes it does. I don’t think it matters who was his VP, or who is associated with President Obama, anyone/anything that is in any way, has to be erased as far as trump is concerned.
Attack reason #1
Also,
Joe Biden has political teflon. His story relates well to a lot of people. He’s a worker, not a rock star. That means that he seems comfortable to a lot of people. And if that’s true then he could get votes against trump. Also the polls show Biden doing well.
Attack reason #2.
Ksmiami
@Villago Delenda Est: we r getting closer to that point
Jay
sukabi
@mrmoshpotato: Despite his “everyday Joe” public persona, Biden belongs to a very insulated, protected group that you and I will never be accepted into. It’s that group that informs his policies / opinions.
He plays the “everyday Joe” to sell those ideas / policies to the masses while bellying up to the table set by the patriarchy.
Kent
@Ruckus:
I’ve been there and done that in my former career in goverment. But in a very narrow corner of the legislative world working with fisheries related legislation. The other thing most people fail to understand about the process is how absolutely powerful the Senate and House committee chairs are. They are pretty all powerful when it comes to determining the direction of legislation in Congress because they control the committee budgets and staff.
At least in the prior world when legislation actually got analyzed and discussed at the committee level. The GOP has invented a whole new way of doing things when they let the leadership just drop completed drafts on Congress hours before the vote like they did with the tax bill. But I promise you there are way too many Dem prima donnas in the Senate for that to ever happen under a Dem Senate. And it would go against the grain of democracy anyway.
If you want to know who will control health care policy in 2021 under an ideal Dem sweep? Look to who will be controlling the relevant committees. I believe the ranking member of the Senate Committee on Health Education and Welfare is Patty Murray. She will have a bigger say on the future of healthcare policy in the US than any of the current presidential candidates. In the House it will be Chairman Richard Neil of the Ways and Means Committee.
Those two will be controlling what even gets proposed much less voted on
Kathleen
@SenyorDave: Because Biden was the subject of the Ukraine call. He has to smear Biden to defend himself.
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Amateur would indicate that he has at least a passing if slight overall interest in a subject. The absolute max he gives a shit about the military is that they do what he says, and will die for him. The only other thing he knows is that he does whatever vlad tells him to do with it.
Kathleen
@debbie: Certainly did not. Besides, Ohio Rethugs were busy getting out the hate vote with the anti gay marriage ballot initiative and figuring out how to flip votes.
Kathleen
@MomSense: I will never forget 2004 Ohio.
Kathleen
@Jay: I also read that US troops could be in harms way. So cue new Benghazi hearing
Ruckus
@debbie:
Where in OH do you live? I had that same experience in Gahanna in 2004, twice as many precincts/half the machines as in 2000.
Jay
Ruckus
@PJ:
Did you actually read what I wrote?
Because I don’t think you did.
I know a number of people with similar personal/family lives like Joe Biden.
Jay
@Kathleen:
Yesterday, to day they are all leaving North East Syria in convoys with air cover.
The will be out of Syria entirely by Tuesday.
It’s French and other former US NATO allies who are at risk.
Dolt 45 has broken NATO irrepairably.
Jay
Kathleen
@Jay: I was referring to this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/10/12/us-forces-say-turkey-was-deliberately-bracketing-american-forces-with-artillery-fire-syria/
I can’t even begin to comprehend the evil at work in Trump administration.
Ruckus
@Kent:
This to me is a huge point.
How many people are there that really control our government/laws. McConnell controls what gets discussed/voted on – one person.
Committee chairs control what gets discussed/voted on.
Most of us don’t even get the chance to vote for this person to do this, one person control of every thing. Only just under 214,000 people in KY voted for McConnell in 2004, yet he decides everything about how our government works. The vast majority of us didn’t even have the opportunity to vote for or against this asshole.
PJ
@Ruckus: I did read it. I also know a number of people that suffered family tragedies. But they are in the minority, which was my point. Many people look at what Biden went through and have sympathy because of that – even if, compared to them, he has had a cushy life, those losses make him seem more human.
Kattails
@mrmoshpotato: LOL you beat me on that one! ;-)
mrmoshpotato
@sukabi: Yes. That just reinforces my belief that Biden isn’t ready for the amount of shit that’s going to be flung on the Democratic nominee.
RobertB
@Ruckus: I live out in the exurbs west of Hilliard, and we had 6 voting machines at my voting location in 2004. I had to wait 10 minutes. My brother lived in Columbus proper and he had to wait two hours.
debbie
@Kathleen:
Yes! And Blackwell’s “Your voter registration doesn’t count because it isn’t printed on 60lb paper!” crap. Ah, the nightmares return!
debbie
@Ruckus:
East Columbus, but it was pretty much everywhere in Franklin County.
Ruckus
@RobertB:
In 2000 we had 3 or 4 precincts and 4 machines at the church we voted at. In 2004 we had 7 or 8 precincts and 2 machines at that same church on Morse Rd. I waited 4 hrs to vote. 2 outside in the rain. A lot of people left before voting. I wonder if they came back after work.
@debbie:
Yes, I know.
NotMax
@marcopolo
Um, no. Have the remote which came with the TV and a remote for the Roku.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ruckus: Perhaps “dilettante” would be better?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Jay:
From the story:
Open-carry is terrorism. That’s the whole point
Matt McIrvin
I don’t actually think Biden would be a bad candidate. His history as Obama’s VP covers a multitude of sins that sank him before that. The “return to normalcy” appeal is powerful for a lot of Americans–I don’t agree with it at all; my major objection to him is that that attitude would make him a less-than-ideal President for our time. But with Trump in, it’s probably a good pitch for election. Unfortunately, his being a white man does probably give him a couple of points boost in popular support over several of the other candidates, particularly in swing states. And Biden has been a great campaigner for Obama in the past.
I think you can go crazy trying to game out the general election during the primary; 90% of the people who claim to know how it will go are committing the Pundit’s Fallacy, assuming that what you personally like is what The People want. Support the candidate you favor and support the Democratic nominee during the general-election campaign; I think that’s the best we can do.
enplaned
The reason they are so bad at this is that a certain amount of this has been part of traditional politics.
1) It does suck, it has always sucked, it has never been right. The Clinton Global Initiative was, in fact, a way for Bill Clinton to monetize his presidency. That he did it better than those who went before doesn’t make it any more right. And yet the Very Important People thought there was nothing wrong about it. If you complained about it, you were viewed as a rube, because, in fact, almost all the DC villagers are on the make, or want to be on the make, one way or the other. There’s no question that Biden’s kid got these baubles because he was Biden’s kid – and there’s no question that that kind of thing p*sses off people mightily. That Trump is covered with slime from head to toe, and his kids just as bad, doesn’t change the fact that people hate this traditional institutional corruption.
2) Trump is far more corrupt that the base level of corruption that’s existed, but as an outsider, his corruption is novel. And the fact that there’s always been a base level of corruption means that the Bidens and the Clintons et al are vulnerable to this kind of thing. Their reaction is essentially “but my corruption is good honest graft, whereas Trump’s corruption is venal and evil, why is this not obvious to all of you peons”. And yes, there is a very definite sense in which that is true, but it’s unfortunately quite a weak argument. Biden didn’t sell out his country, but he certainly let his kids peddle influence. Bill Clinton peddled himself for all he was worth after he stepped down. Had he not done so, my guess is Hillary would be president. He sold himself vigorously. It might have been within the law, but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t infuriate the heck out of people and it made Hillary thoroughly vulnerable to an outsider running on (ostensibly) tearing down the system. Bill and Hillary so clearly believed that they were deserved the money that came their way. The sense of entitlement is, on an absolute basis, sickening. That Trump is infinitely more so, doesn’t change this.
Raoul
Late to arrive here, but: He should just hang it up.
Oh, he won’t. But he ought to.
columbusqueen
@debbie: I remember passing sample ballots out in E. Columbus, & feeling stunned at how long the lines were.