.
Rudy admits to CNN he passed the packet of Ukraine conspiracy theories and attacks on a U.S. ambassador to Pompeo. "They (the State Department) told me they would investigate it."
— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) October 3, 2019
And per CNN, the rest of the Republican party is less than thrilled:
What you most hear from congressional Republicans on impeachment this week is the sound of silence.
GOP sources tell CNN they have a good reason for that fear. They have no idea what else House Democrats’ investigation will uncover or what comes next.
Along with that fear is frustration with President Donald Trump: his ranting in performances full of false claims, like Wednesday in the Oval Office and White House East Room, and stream of consciousness rapid-fire tweets — curse words and all — are not exactly an anti-impeachment road map for his fellow Republicans…
And although phrases like “witch hunt” and “hoax” worked for the President politically during the investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller, concerned GOP sources — more than half a dozen, including some in leadership who are talking to and hearing from the rank and file — tell CNN that they worry the President isn’t comprehending what they believe to be true, that this is different…
Several congressional Republicans tell CNN that their concern is exacerbated by getting very little guidance from the White House. CNN reported last week that, despite an initial flirtation with setting up an impeachment war room in the mold of Bill Clinton’s White House during his impeachment, the Trump team is not going there now.
“There is no White House war room. Why are we the ones who have to defend him?” asked one congressional GOP source.
Also noteworthy were comments from Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who rarely grants interviews. This week, the Kentucky Republican went on CNBC and declared that if the House impeaches the President, the Senate will have no choice but to start a trial.
“Under the Senate rules we’re required to take it up if the House does go down that path, and we’ll follow the Senate rule,” McConnell said.But before that even happens, several Republican sources on Capitol Hill say they are bracing for more shoes to drop, and don’t want to get out too far defending the President when they don’t know what else he, or his top aides, may have done…
Hell, does Trump even know “what else he, or his top aides, may have done”?
By the way, Rudy is admitting to manufacturing White House logos and sticking them on non-White House documents and pushing the real government to act on them. https://t.co/8NEfRmvTXy
— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) October 3, 2019
The website of the consulting firm that forged business contacts for Rudy Giuliani in Ukraine and Russia for more than a decade, TriGlobal Strategic Ventures, has suddenly vanished. The company’s website reverted to “TGSV – Coming Soon.”https://t.co/R4U41KHGzE
— Julia Davis (@JuliaDavisNews) October 2, 2019
Wait what. https://t.co/2sjcViZ76e
— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) October 3, 2019
I wouldn’t bet that the conspiracy talking points Rudy delivered to Pompeo were from Roger Stone.
But I think it’d be kinda crazy to bet that they weren’t.
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) October 3, 2019
A Ghost To Most
Per an old joke:
Coffee break is over, GOPers. Back on your heads.
satby
This insane criminality is what we’re up against but we have 300 comment threads trashing whichever is the Democratic candidate du jour who doesn’t give universal warm fuzzies to everybody.
This entire country just seems insane.
Mike in DC
It seems to me:
1. Russia helped Trump win in order to weaken NATO, get sanctions lifted and end the war with Ukraine on its terms.
2. Trump’s efforts to discredit the Mueller report finding that Russia interfered is part of this, and he has tried to rope in the governments of other countries.
3. Trump’s efforts to get Ukraine to “make nice” with Russia is another part of this, and Ukraine’s president may fall because of the backlash to even the appearance of capitulation to Putin.
4. Trump’s efforts to get Ukraine to manufacture dirt on Biden is yet another part, and his willingness to use the withholding of military assistance to Ukraine shows how far he’s willing to go.
5. To ask our long time allies like the UK and Australia to discredit our own intelligence agencies is perverse in the extreme. But Trump wants Putin’s help in 2020, and Putin is calling in his marker first.
And I think that is not even half of the full picture. The Saudis, gulf states, Israel, the payments for hotel rooms never used…we could be investigating this corrupt administration and family for years after he’s no longer president.
Aleta
They’re going to need more reporters for all the leakers. Really, for years to come the leak frequency of this period will be described with awe. (That is if the GOP is defeated and a free press survives.)
Anne Laurie
@satby:
IMO, the CNN story really highlights the difference between the two parties, for better & for worse. On the one hand, we Dems fight like siblings from a particularly dysfunctional gene pool… which does at least toughen us up for dealing with the rest of the cruel world.
The Repubs, on the other hand, are only two happy to line up behind this season’s Dear Leader. Which means that when the DL in question absconds on his responsibilities, they’re left standing around bleating & waiting for instructions that don’t necessarily arrive in time.
satby
@Anne Laurie: but they beat us because they focus on winning while we focus on who deserves my precious, singular ballot. We’re chumps.
rikyrah
Good Morning,, Everyone ???
Frank McCormick
@Anne Laurie:
Regarding waiting for guidance that never comes, I love driftglass’ allusion to “Star Trek”: “Landru, guide us!”
http://driftglass.blogspot.com/2019/09/30-million-wingnuts-cry-out-landruguide.html
PaulWartenberg
Until we see names of the Congressional Republicans willing to back up their concerns in public, these stories are goddamned lies.
For all we can tell, the Republicans are just peachy keen to back this scandal-driven orange shitgibbon as he careens from one illegal act to another.
NotMax
@Anne Laurie
“Landru, help us!”
Mary G
There do seem to be a few cracks in the Republican dam – McConnell isn’t spouting the statements talking points, Grassley seems to possibly believe the whistleblower may have a point. Pelosi’s more-in-sorrow-than-anger attitude is working on the voters.
The world’s turn towards the authoritarian right is scary, but one thing that gives me hope are all the massive protests in Hong Kong, Ukraine, climate strikes all over the globe means we won’t go quietly.
hueyplong
Sounds like an orchestra warming up to play “We Were Just Following Orders” in case Steiner’s Division turns out to be a mirage.
Aleta
@satby: @Anne Laurie: One thing that gets me. The GOP has voters who disagree but are each willing to ignore some things–for ex, gun deaths–to get something they want– for ex, anti-abortion commitment. Or ignore the anti-abortion part (even though they’ve had them) to get lower taxes. Ignore other people’s children to get guns for themselves. Those voters might not get along but the GOP knows how to make them vote alike. (See: My two sisters.)
The Ds have voters who’re the opposite, willing to write off a candidate or stay home because of a couple of things they don’t like. That might make it easier to defeat a candidate cause the opposition only has to magnify one or two things. (See: Some of my left-leaning neighborhood. )
Nicole
Here’s the thing, you feckless anonymous coward- you don’t.
Betty Cracker
Looks like the wingnut consensus attack angle is that Schiff orchestrated the whistleblowing (thanks, NYT!). But the challenge for Team Trump is that the geniuses in the White House released the not-transcript of the Zelensky call, and it’s damning on its own.
The media is finally starting to examine Giuliani’s crackpot claims about the 2016 election hack, i.e., it was Ukraine/Soros/Clinton who framed Russia/Putin/Trump. The thing is, it ain’t just Giuliani who believes this insane conspiracy theory; Trump is all in too, and as the OP says, that means so is Pompeo, Barr and who knows who else.
It could be that Giuliani and Trump are the only true believers in the administration and that the so-called grown-ups subverted U.S. foreign policy to placate the demented duo. Regardless of motives, what they did was impeachable too.
Aleta
@Aleta: instead of “because of a couple of things they don’t like” I should have said ‘they can’t ignore’ … which includes me sometimes.
Aleta
Investigate Ivanka!
Ken
Didn’t they get the memo from the WH with the talking points? The Congressional Democrats did.
debbie
@satby:
Seconded.
debbie
@Aleta:
If Trump hasn’t cured them of that attitude, nothing will.
NotMax
FYI.
Kay
It starts to make more sense why there haven’t been more whistleblowers when you find out how many bad, unqualified people they hired. Now look at the DOJ. See what’s going on in there. If it’s bad in one it’s bad in others.
danielx
Keep harking back to the article by David Roth a couple of days ago: “This Guy Truly Has No Idea What He’s Talking About”. Trump’s mind is like a television that changes channels about every three seconds, except whatever channel it may be – it’s always about him and his grievances.
The truly amazing thing, to me, is that he apparently doesn’t think he’s done anything wrong, because he’s Donald Trump…
JPL
@debbie: True. I do think that folks assumed Hillary would win, so there wasn’t a sense of urgency. Hopefully that won’t happen again.
debbie
Rats. I can’t find the tweet now, but someone tweeted a photo of Trump’s expression when a reporter asked the Finnish president what favors Trump had asked of him. Priceless!
satby
@Aleta: @Aleta: voting is a collaboration, not a solo act. We collaborate to get a person who will enact most of the policies important to us elected. That means most of us need to compromise on one or more things that we would like to see but may not in the candidate running. Republicans do this well because their goal is to win and rule even though their policies are unpopular. We don’t, so we end up fractured and with elections stolen. And blaming each other.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
So I didn’t pay attention for a few hours yesterday afternoon and apparently missed at least one brand-new scandal and I’m trying to catch up.
As I understand it, the urgent closed-door briefing from the State Department IG yesterday was to deliver a pile of doo-doo conspiracy theory stuff that Rudy printed up on fake White House stationary, right?
But as I also understand it, the State Department has had this stuff for six months.
Why was it all of a sudden so urgent to brief this stuff to Congress? Wasn’t it the same Biden conspiracy stuff they’ve all already been pushing? Was the IG pretending this was a major gotcha for Biden that was going to prove it was all true? Did it also have pizza parlor stationary with Hillary’s signature and a fake notary stamp drawn in crayon?
Was this just Pompeo ordering someone else to do something illegal to try to make the cover-up work?
JPL
@danielx: Consequences are for the little people.
danielx
@satby:
Purity ponies ride again! With Bernie on the sidelines, I await Ralph Nader sticking his oar in the water any day now.
NotMax
Low note.
trnc
Weird that MoscowMitch doesnt have a made up Biden Rule to nullify the actual senate rule to which he’s refferring.
satby
@danielx: Wilmer’s last fundraising haul was $25 mil, announced the day before his health scare. Since I never thought he was in it for more than the grift and since he’s been slipping in the polls, I won’t be at all surprised if he quits now, content to become the guy who coulda won but for the universe being so unfair.
Kay
@debbie:
I’m with that reporter. Don’t ask Trump- it’s a waste of time. Ask the witness. And it has to be a witness who doesn’t work for him, if that means the Finnish President? Fine. Whoever.
Betty Cracker
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: I don’t fully understand it either, but I gather Giuliani has admitted it’s his on TV. (It’s so helpful that he’s admitting all this stuff on TV; kinda makes his appearance before the committees superfluous should he go the stonewall route!) My impression is that the IG is an honest broker here; maybe he thought the committees needed to see this pile of crazy from Rudy to prepare questions for the recalled ambassador, Mr. Volker, etc.
satby
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: the briefing was about Pompeo threatening State Department workers who might respond to Congressional requests for information.
Betty Cracker
Add Senator Graham to the true believers list. He sent an indignant letter to the government of Australia yesterday, urging them to come clean about their diplomat’s role in setting up Trump by cooperating with Barr’s inquiry. In return, the Aussies beclowned Graham by presenting a letter from May in which they’d pledged their full cooperation with Barr and disputed his crackpot characterization of their diplomat. So even the Trump sycophants can’t get on the same page. This has a fall of Rome feel about it…
NotMax
While not attempting to open up a rehashing of recent discussions, a piece worth a read.
We Should Not Have to Be Surprised by a Murder Conviction When a Black Man Is Murdered
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
So much for the Grownups in the Room Party. //
Kay
Ken
@Betty Cracker:
If you mean signs of widespread lead poisoning, I agree.
JDM
Two obvious reasons for not having a war room to direct a defense:
1. They’re incompetent
2. If others do it without your direction, any success they have means your strategy was brilliant but any failure is down to them
danielx
@Ken:
Nominated for today’s win on the intertubes.
NotMax
Another wrinkle in the fabric of Brexit .
zhena gogolia
@NotMax:
This has made me so sad. Why do they all think they can get away with this behavior?
I guess because they always have.
Kay
Of course it was edited. Completely in keeping with literally everything else they have done.
zhena gogolia
@satby:
I really don’t see much of that around here. I see people who WANT TO WIN and are trying to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of all the candidates from that point of view.
There seems to be huge sensitivity to any criticism of Warren, which actually reminds me of Bernie bros, to be honest.
WereBear
@NotMax: Because of course not. Right-Wingers don’t think as science understands it.
NotMax
FYI. Google launches new tools for privacy and security on Maps, YouTube, Google Assistant.
Privacy options should not have to be an added feature, they should be part and parcel of the original architecture.
rikyrah
@satby:
I disagree with you. I think folks have the same objective, and truly believe that certain candidates won’t stack up well for the General Election. What is a primary, if not to try and sound those alarms?
hueyplong
@Kay: Exactly. I have zero doubt that the “blunder” of releasing what they released is distracting us from what it must look like without editing/recharacterization of the actual remarks.
Maybe seeing the real thing would be a dam-buster for all but the diner denizens and rally recidivists.
rikyrah
Truth ??
The Hoarse Whisperer (@HoarseWisperer) Tweeted:
The subtext of Trump raging about the characterization of his Ukraine call:
*HE* was the person who pushed to release the memo.
If it had been someone else’s idea, he would be insisting the characterization was wrong.
He’s raging against the reaction to *HIS* mistake. https://twitter.com/HoarseWisperer/status/1179444932001566722?s=17
rikyrah
@Kay:
Absolutely edited….
And that was the best that they could come up with to release ??
rikyrah
Adam Serwer? (@AdamSerwer) Tweeted:
Trump is “throw the controller across the room and scream that the game is cheating” mad https://twitter.com/AdamSerwer/status/1179445686275850240?s=17
germy
Jacob Wohl is on the same page as Zuckerberg. They’ll do anything to prevent a Warren presidency.
rikyrah
Ok,
This was ????
Chris Hayes (@chrislhayes) Tweeted:
If someone could harness the president’s self-pity as electricity, it could power the entire global economy carbon-free. https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1179437322317811715?s=17
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I think there’s more to it than that. They took it to the FBI first. Now, maybe that was to verify somehow that they could release it, but if the IG is an honest actor and thinks it’s important I’d like to know why. Is it a defense to the charge that the State Department was working with Rudy? An attempt to distinguish “the department” from Trumpists? Or is it a kind of cry for help? “Look at what they’re doing- how insane it is”. Because IT IS insane. The President’s lawyer is acting as a government official, to the extent of creating “official” letters. That’s insane.
germy
Ken
@NotMax: Your source link isn’t working, but even without it, I’m going to guess GDPR.
SFAW
@trnc:
Yet.
NotMax
@Ken
Thanks for noticing that. Linky fix.
Kay
@hueyplong:
You give them more credit than I do. They’re low quality people. Bad hires. The release was still a blunder. It’s just that they also lie as a matter of course so they also altered the document. I don’t think they’re nasty geniuses. I just think they’re nasty.
rikyrah
Marcus H. Johnson (@marcushjohnson) Tweeted:
If Warren is able to find a way to win the nomination without majority/strong plurality Black support, I think the result will be poor Black turnout relative to expectations in the general. So places like Detriot, Milwaukee, Philadelphia…? https://t.co/9EeN0u7Qpi https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1179440925476622336?s=17
JPL
@satby: If it were just normal procedure at this point, why cancel Iowa’s ad buys. hmmm I think you’re right.
Another Scott
@trnc: As I read and heard Moscow Mitch’s comments, he said the Senate would have to (roughly) “… take up Impeachment… following the Senate Rules…”. That, it seems to me, leaves a lot of wiggle room. Like, perhaps, argue about procedures, who gets to do what, etc.
Senate Impeachment Rules (9 page .pdf):
There’s a lot of actual leeway in how the trial proceeds. I’m sure MM will be gaming things out if he thinks there’s some advantage in doing so.
Cheers,
Scott.
Leto
@Kay: We can take it for a fact that it was either edited or not fully released, because the transcript states, at the very beginning, “this transcript is not verbatim”.
@rikyrah: “Burning it all down” isn’t the same objective as good governance. Wanting the “perfect plan”, and only that plan, isn’t the same objective. Her point is the same one that has been made for years here on this blog: The Reich wing will fall lockstep behind a candidate because “party first”, while Dems will wail and gnash their teeth because a particular candidate doesn’t “inspire them”. Google “Hillary Clinton doesn’t inspire me” and it’s an insipid shit show of reporting.
Also a GE is about persuading enough people to vote for you. If your candidate didn’t get the nod, the losing candidate probably needs to rethink the message that was sent.
Kay
@germy:
She had a Trump heckler at her event last night and a group of Trumpists followed her thru the airport yelling at her. They go after her now, which I think she and everyone else knew would happen. Barr will all of a sudden be spotted in Oklahoma, shaking down her high school debate coach for “oppo”. Oh, well. At least it will be cheaper for the public. We won’t have to cover these peoples luxury accommodations internationally while they’re working for Dear Leader.
SFAW
@germy:
That’s hilarious
Immanentize
@Kay:
Screw that! The email itself is also second hand. The TAPE (well digital recording) of the call itself is locked down on that password protect server.
Let’s hear Trump’s own voice commiting crimes.
Ken
@Leto:
That, and it had a few tells such as Zelensky calling Trump “Sir”, a “stable genius”, and “your Imperial Majesty”.
Chyron HR
@rikyrah:
I’m genuinely baffled by these posts. If Warren wins the primary with an insufficient % of black support, should she concede at the convention? Or does the DNC have the superdelegates step in at that point?
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: I don’t think LG believes anything except that he needs to do everything he can to stay in the news and to appear to be a powerful Senator for his voters in South Carolina, myself.
As Dean Baker reminds us occasionally, we have no way of knowing what people “think” or “really believe” – we can only go by what they say and do. The press should keep that in the forefront of their minds while writing and reporting. We shouldn’t accept what subjects say (or write) at face value when their actions tell a different story.
Cheers,
Scott.
rikyrah
???
NBC News (@NBCNews) Tweeted:
A tectonic plate below the US seems to be dying.
Scientists had already speculated that the Juan de Fuca tectonic plate had a tear in it, and a recent study has uncovered data that all but confirms it. https://t.co/pnBLp8T2qI – @NBCNewsMACH https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1179668181352361984?s=17
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@trnc: Always assume that McConnell is acting on behalf of McConnell. So either he is feeling the pressure and wants to have an honest Senate trial (ha, ha, I kid!) or he wants it out of the House and in his hands where he can kill it (he thinks) for good.
There’s no case for rushing it to the Senate, and Nancy can easily make the case that they’re just investigating at this point, an investigation being slowed down by all the stonewalling.
It would take something pretty drastic for McConnell to decide “Hey, why should we rats abandon the ship? Let’s throw Captain Trump overboard.” That moment may come. Maybe it’s another shellacking of whoever’s up for election this November. Maybe it’s losing a couple of “safe” Republican seats in special elections.
And maybe it won’t come, he’ll continue to tie himself to the anchor of the sinking S. S. Trump and we’ll see them all go down in 2020.
Immanentize
@Another Scott:
MMM saying publicly that he will have to go forward with a trial in the Senate if the House impeaches puts him at the power fulcrum over Trump and his fate. I see no reason to believe Mitch will be loyal to Trump because he never was in the first place.
Leto
@germy:
Immanentize
@Leto:
From days ago — yes I did get those articles and passed them on. Not that the Immp will be in any ironman competitions, but he does love to bike and hike.
Kay
Trump has other problems. The slowdown in manufacturing is real. They’re feeling it all over. It’s a double whammy in the rust belt counties where Trump won huge margins, because they are dependent on TWO sectors that are hurting- manufacturing and agricultural. The idea that all manufacturing is in and around city centers in the rust belt is not accurate. It isn’t a single huge GM plant. That’s not how it works anymore. It’s thousands of smaller suppliers and they make parts and components for all cars, including “foreign” cars. They put plants out in rural areas 20 years ago because the land is cheap and so is the water and electricity and they hoped to avoid labor union influence. It’s all farming + manufacturing in these counties. Both. I can almost FEEL it slow down.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@satby: @Betty Cracker: These seem contradictory. Are we just speculating?
Gin & Tonic
@rikyrah: How do you believe she could improve her numbers among the black community?
NotMax
@Immanentize
There is no recording (made in the U.S.). Procedures instituted post-Nixon for the Situation Room preclude any being made.
Another Scott
@satby: I’d much rather that we argue about things like this now, even if they’re sometimes unfair or disingenuous arguments, rather than later.
While we haven’t won every race we hoped, we have done very well in election contests since January 2017. Witness the huge Blue Wave in November 2018. Witness almost flipping the Virginia Legislature.
We’ll have more evidence of this success in November 2019 in the Virginia Legislative Races (all 140 HoD and Senate seats are up). Virginia GOP is on Life Support.
Once we pick our candidates, we need to support them with everything we can. Every race is important and people’s lives are at stake. But having spirited debate before then is not necessarily a bad thing. Even on a “almost top 10,000” blog.
My $0.02. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
SFAW
@Ken:
But is Zelensky a big, strong guy? Were tears streaming down his face? That’s the only way we’ll know if Zelensky was sincere.
rikyrah
Soooooo,
Explain it to me like I am in Kindergarten. How does his NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR be in on the phone call….
AND THE VICE-PRESIDENT NOT KNOW????????
Greg Miller (@gregpmiller) Tweeted:
Important new detail: Pence’s own national security adviser was on the July 25 call. https://t.co/nyb3qbTY6j https://twitter.com/gregpmiller/status/1179516993579425797?s=17
Betty Cracker
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: My understanding was the briefing was supposed to be about the State Department (Pompeo) trying to prevent employees from testifying, but I’m going by what Rep. Jamie Raskin said after the meeting, which I saw on TV. Raskin talked about the IG turning over an envelope filled with “propaganda” that had been received by the State Department months ago. Giuliani later owned up to it.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic:
I read somewhere yesterday? A link to politico maybe? That Warren is increasing her numbers in the AA community while every other candidate is holding steady or slipping. So, maybe we will see a different picture by February of next year?
SFAW
Apparently the Boston “Yeah, We Used to Be Liberal, but Now We’re Shills for RWMFs, Just Like the FTFTFNYT” Globe has started up with their own version(s) of Cletus safaris:
In a deep red Tennessee district, impeachment elicits sighs, not anger
“An impeachment frenzy has roiled Washington, but it has barely created ripples in this deeply Republican farming community in the foothills of the Great Smoky Mountains.
Many people are already weary of this new round of accusations against President Trump, who they say still deserves the benefit of the doubt. They sigh and call this latest controversy just another sign of partisanship and dysfunction in the nation’s capital — a far cry from the outrage heard from Democrats over the Ukraine whistle-blower complaint or the Civil War-type backlash that Trump has predicted from his supporters.”
No, I ain’t linking
NotMax
@Ceci n est pas mon nym
Very theoretically, McConnell could massage the rules to allow Pence, acting in his capacity as president of the Senate, to function as Chief Presiding Officer.
;)
Immanentize
@SFAW:
The New York Times owns the Boston Globe.
Literally. In its literal meaning.
Elizabelle
Good morning, jackals.
Come back baud! Or send up a flair so we know you are alright. You iz missed.
Kay
@SFAW:
I wasn’t on the impeachment train but Democrats didn’t have any choice. They’re interfering in the 2020 election. There were only two routes, and they were busy cutting off one. It can’t continue like this. If it’s popular that will be super but not acting wasn’t and isn’t an option. It’s a democratic crisis. They’re attacking the thing itself.
PJ
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: @Immanentize: The first priority for Mitch is protecting his own Senate seat, and the second is for protecting his Senate majority. If he thinks either is in danger by continuing to support Trump, he won’t hesitate to turn on him. Better a President Pelosi for a few months and a Senate majority after 2020 (and possibly a President Ryan, or Romney, or whomever else they draft), than a President Trump without a Senate majority.
Immanentize
@NotMax:
The Constitution says the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court “presides” whatever that means. Rhenquist presided over the Clinton impeachment trial and even had a special new robe made for the occasion. He also set precedent by ruling on an objection….
SFAW
@Immanentize:
Not anymore they don’t — John Henry bought them in 2013. Which, interestingly enough, seems to coincide with their change from liberal rag to slightly-left-of-the-Herald rag
Leto
@Immanentize: Cool! I had a lot of people pass on articles regarding my issues letting me know it wasn’t the end of the world. I hope his trip was good; how’s the earring working for him?
@rikyrah: yeah, that’s bullshit Pence doesn’t know. Race Bannon has been a part of everything since day 1. They all have to go.
gk
To the “congressional GOP source” who asks “Why are we the ones who have to defend him?”, the answer is because no one but GOP members of Congress are corrupt, slimy, and ignorant enough for the task.
Immanentize
@Kay:
This is exactly where I was and where I am. If the President is hell bent on taking away the four year removal option of an election, then there is no remedy except impeachment. Which in any case will be no picnic. Like Pelosi said at her presser, it will not be a nation-unifying event. But there is no choice.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: That sounds right to me: “look at how insane this is.” I honestly don’t know.
I’ve been perusing what passes for the respectable wingnut media (Hewitt, York, etc.) because I’m curious about how they’re trying to spin all of this. They seem to have settled on a dual-pronged messaging strategy: 1) accusing Schiff of colluding with the whistleblower, and 2) keeping the mud off Barr by alleging that he’s just investigating the origins of the Mueller probe rather than targeting Trump’s political rivals.
#1 doesn’t seem like it would reach beyond the base because we have Trump’s own admission that he talked to Zelensky about investigating the Bidens.
#2 doesn’t do much for Trump, although of course it will look ten times worse if it comes out that Barr did investigate the Bidens.
I’m guessing the ostentatious trip to Rome and Graham’s crazy demand that the cooperating Australians cooperate were meant to reinforce #2. Not sure how the AG jetting off to Italy to investigate a bonkers conspiracy theory is supposed to be exonerating for Trump, but maybe this is all they have?
Elizabelle
@rikyrah:
Rikyrah: I am not on twitter. Will you please tell Marcus H Johnson, on my behalf, that he can shut the fuck up? You keep posting his crap, and why should his loudmouthed opinions have any credibility for us? He is one person, and seems to have Elizabeth Warren Derangement Syndrome.
Why are you subjecting us to him?
ETA: Rikyrah, really: I would rather hear your voice on this than hiding behind some blowhard with a twitter account.
I realize you (and all of us) are deeply concerned about winning the presidency in 2020. If not, it is game over. Why are you — and Marcus — so inspired to take down a very strong candidate who is running an excellent campaign?
FWIW, I was checking out the FB page of a wingnut friend of a friend of mine (had replied to a comment I’d made) and, in addition to some Fox News crap, she turns out to be an Elizabeth Warren fan. And she’s a feminist. It was fascinating to me.
Leto
@Immanentize: The fancy robe with the gold stripes on the sleeves… not like being Chief Justice wasn’t special enough, nooooo! Let’s really get into the role! Do you think Roberts will doff a powder wig like his Anglo counterparts? Powdered wig and gold trim. It’ll be smashing!
NotMax
@rikyrah
Implying black people are that petty (and do not recognize Dolt 45 for what he is enough to turn out to vote against him) borders on the offensive.
Aside from political junkies, Warren’s national depiction/image remains out of focus. As the field whittles down, that will change – and it is the job of any campaign to capitalize on that and earn support. She (or any candidate) has to sell herself, but it is also incumbent on voters to not only hear but listen to the sales pitch.
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
By interesting coincidence, Melania also had to go to Italy during that same period, something about “visiting my sick mother … er, aunt … yeah, that’s it, my aunt.”
Apologies for the lack of a trigger warning. [Snowflakes!]
Immanentize
@SFAW:
I am so lost these days…. Right you are. Sorry! Once again, never use the word, “literally.”. Maybe figuratively owned by the NYTimes?
I had a colleague whose husband is part of the Sulzberger family. He was sent by the family to toil at the Globe in all their departments for five years. Then, he was called to NY to be with the Mothership. I don’t subscribe to the Globe, obviously….
Kay
@Immanentize:
They’d be accepting authoritarian, minority rule. It’s an existential threat. The thing won’t survive.
I certainly hope it’s popular- I’m in the opposition Party and popular is better than unpopular, but it really doesn’t matter. They have to fight. She will impeach too. She doesn’t start something unless she knows at the outset she can finish it. She doesn’t bluff.
Immanentize
@Leto:
Oh how I wish he would.
Jamie
@danielx:
Seconded.
NotMax
@Immanentize
I wasn’t in any way suggesting that McC would try to usurp the position of the Chief Justice as outlined in the Constitution, but that he could (conceivably) have Pence act as the chief representative/voice of the Senate during the hearing.
Really, just spitballin’.
rikyrah
Marcus H. Johnson (@marcushjohnson) Tweeted:
Maybe I will write about the forgiveness narrative and how its really just a slightly veiled power play to keep Black folks “in their place” even after they’ve been seriously wronged. Honestly I despise the forgiveness narrative so much. https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1179564130409308160?s=17
SFAW
@Immanentize:
More like John Henry (re: political leanings). We subscribed until about two years ago, when I decided I had had enough of their RWMF-curious editorial policies. When Scot Lehigh is the best they can do for a “liberal” columnist, well … [I like Lehigh, but he’s not liberal. And they keep giving column inches to moron/liar Jeff Jacoby, who started as their token RWMF columnist.]
Immanentize
@Kay: I think impeachment really might end up “popular” in the “majority support it” fashion. But the Senate has no relationship to “popular rule” unless it’s overwhelmingly popular. But certainly a few Senators will be at risk which might be enough to make the rest of the Republicans turn?
If wishes were horses, beggers would ride.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah:
Translation: If we don’t get what I think we want, we are going to sit on our hands and twitter and not vote (even though voter disenfranchisement of POC is so abhorrent, but we will self-disenfranchise! — cuz Warren) — or we will write in worthy candidate. Because withholding votes worked so well in 2016.
Was Marcus by chance following that one? It went rather badly, if memory serves.
Why is Marcus so unhinged here? Further, if he was supporting a candidate, rather than making stupid-ass proclamations that make no sense ?, I would be more interested in his take.
NotMax
@rikyrah
Be careful of nosebleeds arising from sitting atop that high horse, Mr. Johnson (whoever you may be).
rikyrah
Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) Tweeted:
New USA Today poll:
Americans support House *impeaching* Trump by 45-38
They support *Senate conviction and removal* by 44-35 (!)
Note: 30% of Republicans say pressure on Ukraine to smear Biden is an abuse of power.
And it’s early. More will come out.
https://t.co/nIaJRZgP7E https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1179700643252113408?s=17
Immanentize
@SFAW:
I once was put up against Jacoby in a debate about the death penalty when Romney was pushing for his “free from error” death penalty bill.
Jacoby argued the reason for the death penalty was Hitler, because he so obviously deserved it. In fifteen years of publically debating the merits of capital punishment, it was the first time I had ever heard anyone suggest that the greatest historic consumer of State-powered executions, which we refer to as a holocaust!, was the reason we should allow the state the power to execute people. Gob, smacked.
That man is a jackass.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Mike in DC: It’s worth noting that Trump clearly is a conspiracy theory believer, so a lot of the stuff that will come out is likely to be bizarre and batshit nuts, like the real reason for the trade war in China is to shut down the factory in China were the manufacturer all the human ancestors fossils so the archeologist can fake finding them.
Leto
@Immanentize: I’ve thought about that too; there will be 22 Senate seats coming up for re-election next year. Some are solidly red, but the others… If #moscowmitch thinks he’s going to lose power, he’ll dump Trumpov in a second. His first two priorities: 1) power 2) keep the money flowing. Anything that endangers that, he’ll jettison.
NotMax
@Immanentize
Has the Green Hornet conclave taken place yet?
(I know, I know, that was Kato with a K, but snarketic license.)
Elizabelle
@satby: I know, satby. Baud is gone, and a lot of people are gone. It’s a lot of the same commenters, over and over.
I think we’re all unnerved, but why take it out on Democrats and people who like Democrats?
Elizabelle
@Leto: I would love us to do a BJ meetup in Maine, as we canvas for the Democrat opposing Susan Collins. Maybe Stephen King will turn out to be a jackal!
Have never yet been to Maine. It’s on the one-year bucket list.
Leto
@Elizabelle: There’s a woodworking school I’d like to visit there, on top of the fact that we’ve never been to Maine so it’s an excuse for a trip. Avalune and I have been looking for an excuse to travel so….
Elizabelle
@Leto: Great! Keep that thought! We will make it happen.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: Maine is drop-dead gorgeous, IMO. If I had more money, I’d spend my summers in either Maine or Vermont, which is also lovely. Stephen King spends winters in Florida. :)
ET
tRump is the boy who cried wolf – or in this case witch hunt and hoax. Say it too much and it becomes less potent. Use it in all instances to describe things you don’t like, people start ignoring it.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
The Catskills. Vermont lite, with better food.
;)
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
BTW, did I miss the culmination of the Great Shower Incident?
Kay
@Leto:
We have a problem in Senate leadership though. Schumer is AWOL. He has been for 3 years. He’s been absolutely terrible as a political leader. I know they’re in the minority but WTF? What is going on here? Is his decades-long relationship with Trump getting in the way of him even doing the minimum of a leader in the minority?
There’s an empty space where Senate Democrats should be. Klobachur said yesterday she’d like to see some advocacy on gun regulations, and she’s right. Where is he? The job isn’t limiting to passing bills when they’re in the majority. They’re POLITICAL leaders.
Leto
@Elizabelle: I’ll keep my calendar free! *looks at calendar and see’s nothing but blank pages* ?
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: I’d been thinking of driving up to Montreal this fall, [in Quebec,] which abuts Maine. No longer so sure that will happen, but would so love to see Maine before the snows. (Or at least before winter sets in.)
JGabriel
CNN via Anne Laurie @ Top:
So, Republicans can see that Trump is crooked, and their main concern is not that we have a corrupt criminal president under the influence of hostile foreign powers, no, their main concern is optics?
I am both astonished, yet unsurprised.
Gin & Tonic
@Elizabelle: You know the four seasons in Maine, right? Pre-winter, winter, mud, blackflies.
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: We fired the contractor and finished it ourselves. Many lessons were learned! ;-)
Elizabelle
@Gin & Tonic: I had heard. Maine has a fearsome reputation!
Leto
@Gin & Tonic: Was it Momsense that was telling us about the black flies? They… don’t seem fun ? Of course down in these parts (PA), our neighbors around us now have some type of new disease carrying mosquitos that have killed a few people. Blech.
@Kay: We do; Schumer basically comes out and stands behind NancySmash, but past that… If we retake the Senate, we need a new lead. An effective lead.
Elizabelle
@JGabriel: It’s what patriots do.
Oh. Wait …
Betty
@Kay: Completely agree that Schumer is useless. From what I can gather he gets the D Senators support because of fundraising (ties to Wall Street) and he does not push them to take unpopular votes (at least that is what Claire McCaskill said and she should know because she she didn’t take any and lost anyway. I had been pushing for Klobuchar because I think she would be tough on them.
Cacti
@JGabriel:
Basically.
Republicans are perfectly fine with Trump’s criminality. It’s him being so indiscreet about it that bothers them.
NotMax
@Gin & Tonic
But- but- you can buy a whole lobster at the 99¢ store!
:)
BC in Illinois
@germy:
@Kay:
@Leto:
The best comment I’ve seen on the Elizabeth Warren / Marine scandal:
Kay
@Betty:
I find it unforgivable. The biggest challenge Democrats have faced in decades and this ol buddy of Donald Trump is AWOL. We could get rid of him right now. No one would notice if he stopped coming to work. Give it to Klobachur. She’s not afraid of Trump, or anyone else :)
immanentize
@NotMax: Yes. yesterday afternoon! The guy was very energetic and in many ways his opinions align with mine. Except, on the personal right to own a gun. But he is no gun nutter — he believes in the right of the State to regulate ownership, just that it has gone too far in many cases. So our disagreement is there. But his major bugaboo is qualified immunity for police officers and we completely agreed on that topic. To sum up, unlike most “libertarians,” he was not just a conservative republican who smoked pot.
Cacti
Bette Midler goes there:
opiejeanne
@Elizabelle: What is this about Baud? What happened? Was it because of several ugly threads today, or something else?
immanentize
@Leto: @Elizabelle:
I will meet you in Maine!
immanentize
@Elizabelle: Baud is gone? What?
Oh Lord I am impaired….
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Elizabelle: Wait. Baud’s not just on vacation or something?
Kay
@BC in Illinois:
I don’t know her personally and I suppose anything is possible but I would be really surprised! That is a bombshell.
Although- we’re overdue for a female-as-cheater sex scandal, or even a female as sexual harasser. Those are possible and we haven’t had one.
Dev Null
@Ken: The Democrats did.
Snap! :-)
Steve in the ATL
@Immanentize:
I have warned you people literally millions of times about this….
immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Hi! You were right (as usual). Sander’s double was in-line. Thank you again.
Elizabelle
@immanentize: @Dorothy A. Winsor:
Adam said he “flounced off” after some altercation. I don’t know the particulars. (Was off BJ for a while because traveling for family funeral.)
Come back baud!
Anybody know anything further? There have been a lot of het up threads lately.
rikyrah
@Elizabelle:
How is she running a strong campaign when she is NOT connecting with the BASE OF THE PARTY. ?
Her polls in South, with the base of the party,have not changed. I posted the latest one from South Carolina, published 10/1/2019.
Her polling with Blacks in South Carolina?
9%
on 10/1/2019
After all her gain elsewhere, the polling in the South hasn’t changed at all.
opiejeanne
@Elizabelle: Noooooo!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@immanentize: I tend to think of my heart “incident” as fairly minor, which is probably denial on my part, so you startled me by mentioning open-heart surgery! At this point, you’ve probably spent way too much time in hospitals. I hope Immp is doing well.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Bauds don’t flounce. Bauds gallumph.
(No idea what happened either.)
Kay
@rikyrah:
But none of the rest did well either, right? Outside Biden, who dominated. Wasn’t Harris low double digits? 10 or 11?
If it’s Biden v Warren it’s true but isn’t it more like “Biden, and then everyone else who are way, way less popular with AA’s than Biden is”?
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle & @opiejeanne: I am certain I saw Baud participating in numerous threads after the alleged flounce, so maybe he’s just traveling or something.
rikyrah
@Elizabelle:
Folks are trying to point out problems with candidates.
Just like Biden has a 40 year history, Warren does too. A big neon sign of that is that she was a Republican through both terms of Ronald Wilson Reagan. Good luck explaining that to a large chunk of the Democratic Party base. As well as WHY she became a Democrat. These are real issues, whether you want to accept it or not.
chopper
@Elizabelle:
baud made some wisecrack about something adam said being naive and adam was all YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THAT SON? and i guess baud was all ‘nuts to this’. adam can get aggro sometimes when people disagree with his analysis of things.
immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: First, yes, I have spent way too much time in hospitals. But, second, I was really responding based on my friend’s very recent experience. He too had an incident, but obviuosly of a very different type than yours — he was told he could have stents placed in two arteries, or, he could have bypass, which the Doctor recommended. He chose the latter and just two weeks after surgery is home and doing very well. All of it is scary as hell.
Dev Null
@JPL: I do think that folks assumed Hillary would win, so there wasn’t a sense of urgency.
That, plus that @$$h013 Comey, eager to get out in front of Sasquatch Jason Chaffetz.
And the FTFVT (“the failures to abide by email server Best Practices, and possession of retroactively classified documents, are disqualifying”).
As Cheryl Rofer said in a recent comment, “I tend to discount Putin’s impact on the vote” (doing this from memory, so sue me if that’s not verbatim). While I suspect that the IRA’s social media campaign (no, the other IRA) contributed to Dem vote falloff in 2016, Comey’s intervention and Even The Liberal Media’s horserace / clickbait fixation seem to me likely to have been more consequential. But that’s unproven, and AFAIK unprovable.
And then there were Rudy and his Merry Band of FBI New York office rogue G-Men. What (TF) ever happened to IG Horowitz’s report on the FBI’s New York office intervention into the 2016 election? Isn’t the report at least a year overdue? (And yeah, it’s on Trump’s Secret Server, I’m sure, but was any official statement ever made as to why the promise of a report is no longer operative?)
(Is “Sasquatch” the appropriate description of Chaffetz? I’m Aware of All Internet Traditions®, natch, and “Sasquatch” seems to apply, but are there connotations that make the term inappropriate in this case?)
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: What do you think is up there? You did not answer my question a while back: what is it about EW’s support for middle class families, concern about income inequality, concern for consumer protection and real, solid healthcare that’s affordable, that is not catching on with the black community?
You brought up that AA voters realize we HAVE to win in 2020 (federal protections and everything else) and I agree that AA voters always have the most to lose, and can be the most risk-averse.
So: some possibilities:
the American South is the most retrograde of all our continental USA. You are more likely to run into Fox News people and evangelicals who think they’re following Baby Jesus the anti-abortionist, but are actually following [white] pastors who are all about mammon and Republicans.
SO: AA are hearing what these scoundrels are saying about EW — because a lot of these folks are more sheep and repeaters than original thinkers [I speak of the conservative whites here]. It’s easy to stereotype and degrade an uppity white woman (or an uppity black one — Kamala the COP!).
And maybe they’re hedging their bets because of that. Have they really listened to Warren?
Did AAs go heavily for Bernie Sanders? He seems to have been more a love object for BernieBros, hyperliberals, and libertarians. Maybe EW is getting besmirched by her perceived closeness to Bernie, and AA voters are saying “hey, wait a minute.” They remember how treacherous Sanders and his supporters were WRT Hillary Clinton.
Are they really listening to what EW says? Ruemara was scoffing that EW is a Janie come lately to the Democratic party. Cuz EW formally joined in … 1996. And she says the last GOP presidential candidate she supported was Gerard Ford.
I think a thread or two on AA perceptions of EW and other candidates could be fascinating.
I am wondering if there is something going on under the radar that we are not hearing.
Is it the case EW has written off the southern states? I cannot say, and would doubt that very much. AA voters are incredibly important in putting together a winning coalition.
Is there any possibility EW is holding back a bit, in hoping Kamala catches fire? Because it seems very much that EW and KH voters will support each others’ candidate. I think that’s an interesting phenomenon.
What do YOU think, rikyrah? I don’t want to hear any more from Marcus Blowhard Johnson.
What do YOU think? What are you hearing?
Don’t hide behind numbers. Polls are very inspecific things and don’t tell us that much this far out.
Frankensteinbeck
@satby:
They beat us because more than half of whites in this country are white supremacists. It doesn’t matter if they’re incompetent assholes. They’re selling what Republicans desperately want to buy.
@hueyplong:
The distraction was a dam-buster. There is no world in which that ‘transcript’ was not a giant own-goal. Trump admitted to asking foreign countries to help him smear his political rivals. It doesn’t matter if what was left out was a screaming tirade that his master and lover Putin will bury Ukraine with the help of the US army if Ukraine does not comply.
Trump does not distract. He’s just so incompetent that he commits a new scandal every day.
@Leto:
Every time I hear this take, I gender-reverse it in my head and wonder how people would react. Like it or hate it, the two situations would be exactly the same.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: Let’s hear more about that. That all goes to identity and loyalty, doesn’t it?
Dev Null
@Betty Cracker: Working my way through comments, so this might already have been said, but one report I saw said that the Acting Legal Advisor, a Trump political appointee, had brought the dox to State’s IG, an Obama appointee (time not specified, although the report suggested that the ALA only recently brought the dox to the IG), and with the fallout from the Zelinskiy (sp?) phone call, the IG rushed to get the material off his hands. I further saw a suggestion (possibly at TPM) that the IG was not eager to be part of any coverup.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Elizabelle: Baud was here yesterday in the Moat with Alligators thread.
I saw the exchange with Adam, but I can’t find it now. I suspect Baud was taking a mental health break.
NotMax
@rikyrah
Yeah, yeah. And Hillary was all in for Goldwater.
Sheesh.
Dev Null
@Ken:
Firing on all cylinders this morning!
Elizabelle
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Thanks.
I understand about a Mental Health Break. i skip a lot of the Juice some days too.
How be the kittehs?
Bruce K
@Dev Null: And I just bet that there’s some bastard out there who’d be just fine with re-legalizing tetra-ethyl lead in gasoline…
Elizabelle
@NotMax: @rikyrah:
Thank you rikyrah. That is some rather shallow thinking there, but it’s good to know about it.
And, since AAs fondly remember HRC the former Goldwater Girl, there is a lot of room for engagement and improvement.
ETA at NotMax: yeah, but there is a generation between 1964 and 1996. That said, think of what it was like to grow up in Oklahoma. Incredibly hidebound and conservative state. I think it’s great EW learned up and switched.
Plus, difference between what you do in high school (Hillary) and in adulthood.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
You can’t spell compartmentalize without “mental.”
:)
Dev Null
@Kay: “transcript”
I’m not sure what this means.
If I’m thinking of the same doc – the one that Trump released – the doc is explicitly not a transcript… it’s a summary.
Becuz:
a) the doc says that it isn’t a transcript; and
b) the ellipses in the doc are by definition edits.
Jinchi
@satby:
We’ve won quite a few elections ourselves.
Cacti
@NotMax:
This is an example of zhena gogolia’s post that Warren fans can’t seem to abide even the mildest questions about her.
rikyrah
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
That is Moscow Mitch all the way.
Dev Null
@NotMax:
uh, you mean, like security and attribution are built into the InterToobz, amirite?
Elizabelle
@Cacti: That’s not true. That’s another overstatement, which is what you traffic in.
There is no perfect candidate out there. Although Barack Obama came pretty damn close. (Actually, he was, for me.)
chopper
@Bruce K:
i wouldn’t doubt trump is one of those. ‘lead schmead, where’s my money?”
Leto
@rikyrah: Her poll numbers have changed in the South, as was pointed out to you yesterday: https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/02/elizabeth-warren-black-voters-support-2020-016649
And it does acknowledge that she went from 2% to 10% polling support among AA voters, while Biden still has 46%. Does that guy on twitter have better information on the ground versus the two AA women organizers? Are Jones-DeWeever and Allison missing something?
NotMax
@Cacti
Bzzt. Thanks for playing, and enjoy the copy of our home game. Don’t trip over that straw man on the way out.
Have never evinced here anything which suggests personal support (or non-support, for that matter) for Warren specifically.
Cacti
@Elizabelle:
The fact is, she hasn’t answered in any meaningful way, why she remained a registered Republican well into middle age.
And you snapping at me about it doesn’t change the above.
rikyrah
@NotMax:
When she was a teenager.
Hillary had a lifetime of activism under her belt that she could point to. She had a lifetime of associations and work that she had done.
From her activism in college.
To her work with Marian Wright Edelman and the Children’s Defense Fund.
Hillary had a long list of people, Black people, that could come up and vouch for her. Say, look at her work and what she’s done.
She had those relationships.
There’s a famous saying in Chicago Politics:
” I don’t want nobody that nobody sent.”
Meaning, somebody that I know has to vouch for you.
When people don’t know you, you have to have folks that can stand for you.
Warren has none of that.
And, if you don’t think that’s a problem, fine.
JoeyJoeJoe
@A Ghost To Most: @Elizabelle: I had a college literature professor who mentioned having traveled through Oklahoma in the early 50s. He went to a bar filled with old cowboy types. He talked to one, who surprised him when he said that he didn’t like Joe McCarthy. My professor asked why not, and the guy’s response was “all them Catholics is communist.”
NotMax
@rikyrah
Must have missed it being written into the by-laws of the CFPB that people of color were excluded from its services.
Dev Null
@Immanentize: Not trying to be a nitpicking pain in the arse – it comes naturally to me – but wiki says that the FTFVT sold the Globe in 2013.
E2A: Ah, I see SFAW got there first.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
We miss you, Baud!
chopper
@Leto:
i dunno. back in the 70s and 80s when warren was still a registered republican, biden was still fighting busing and cuddling up with strom thurmond and jesse helms. he’s still pushing this whole ‘the GOP really just needs to dump trump and then it’ll come back home’ schtick. but people aren’t sure about warren because of the 80s?
Elizabelle
@JoeyJoeJoe: Interesting. Meanwhile, you have Barcelona, which remembers, sadly, how the Catholic Church supported Franco and fascism, who were the anti-Communists, right? Barcelona is hardly the font of Catholicism that a lot of the rest of Spain is.
Dev Null
@Immanentize: “won’t be a picnic”
David Graham at The Atlantic has a good essay on this point.
Spoiler: “Nice country ya got dere. Shame if sumpthin’ happened to it.”
Mobsters, IOW.
Elizabelle
@chopper: Yup. That’s why I think it’s good to get this stuff out in the open.
Times change. People change. Look at what they DO.
Another Scott
@rikyrah: To elaborate – TheState (from October 1):
Warren’s right that it’s early. But she does need to broaden her appeal to AA voters – having a majority white audience at a HBCU is not a good look.
The poll had a small sample, over a long period, and a pretty large MOE. And it’s their first in the state, so we don’t know if there were any systematic issues with it. The Donnie/Ukraine news broke on Monday September 23. Pelosi’s Impeachment statement was on Tuesday September 24.
We’ll see how she does going forward.
Cheers,
Scott.
Cacti
@rikyrah:
I think the above, more than anything, is Warren’s biggest challenge to making inroads with groups besides her current supporters.
She got into politics at a fairly late age, as far as those things go. She doesn’t have a long career as an elected official, and the time she does have has mostly been spent appealing to the sensibilities of college educated whites. Nothing wrong with that, but it takes more than that group to win a national election.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: Thank you, rikyrah, for answering.
I had a few more questions in my post, though. Mainly, what in EW’s platform repels AAs? Is this identity overtaking actual accomplishments?
I am thinking that the Native American controversy was actually aimed at the AA audience, perhaps, and hit its mark? Portraying EW as someone stealing a “credential” during affirmative action?
Both you and ruemara brought it up. Very interesting.
Dev Null
@SFAW: Is Charles (Charlie?) Savage still at the Globe? I see his byline on FTFVT reportage, but I assumed that the FTFVT and the Globe still had some columnist sharing legal arrangement.
Don’t subscribe to either.
Elizabelle
@Cacti: That’s a good point. Thank you.
Leto
@chopper: She said she wasn’t active in politics back then, and basically had a republican registration because Oklahoma. The woman was raising a kid, trapped in a shit marriage, working a shit job, and then trying to go to school. I’ve said this before, but I guess I’ll never get rikyrah or gloryb’s support because I didn’t really “wake up” until 2008. Supported civil rights, LGBTQ rights, was pro-choice, but most of that was just a shallow understanding of everything. Didn’t vote, was too busy being deployed, training, and doing other family shit. It took being introduced to this site, as well as a shit ton of reading on my own part, to get me here now. But, that doesn’t count. /shrug
Uncle Cosmo
@Aleta: This has been true since the dawn of time. I observed with dismay the leftie side of this dynamic fifty years ago at open meetings of the local Vietnam Moratorium committee. Every no-‘count splinter group had its ‘lebenty-seven-point program for reaching the Earthly Paradise, & whoever disagreed with even one of the points was a “cryptofascist” who had to be destroyed. Silly me, I thought the main goal was to stop the goddamned war, not scratch each other’s eyes out over dogma.
And on the right, all you have to do is get the knuckledragging mouthbreathing goosestepping masses hating the same enemies. Let them pick & choose their reasons, so long as they hate.
NotMax
@Leto
Unclean! Unclean!
:)
Gin & Tonic
@rikyrah: How would you suggest she change that, if you were working for her.
Elizabelle
@Leto: Good comment. I find the whole thing questionable, myself, but it’s good to know what’s out there.
chopper
@Elizabelle:
well, it is a year and change before the election. at this point most voters seem to be running on identity issues rather than accomplishments.
rp
The claims/suggestions that (a) Warren can’t improve her standing significantly among AA and (b) that many AA voters will stay home if she’s the nominee are assertions, nothing more. AA voters are more comfortable with Biden at this point, and that makes perfect sense. But I don’t see any evidence that have some deep seated objection to Warren and aren’t persuadable. I also don’t see any evidence that they would stay home in the general election. Turnout in the last four elections has been 60% in 2016, 66, 65, and 60. Are they likely to drop below the level of support for Clinton and Kerry, especially with Trump as the alternative? It’s possible I guess, but seems unlikely. I tend to view AA voters at the *most* pragmatic voters on the left, for obvious reasons. Why wouldn’t they vote?
chopper
@Leto:
to be fair, if you were running for high office as a democrat, that history would be scrutinized. to me the question is how far back do you go? i mean, warren has been a solid dem for what, 25 years?
Cacti
@chopper:
The last Dem POTUS was hounded about his birth certificate.
Leto
@Another Scott:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Carolina_Democratic_primary
This is from the Wiki about the 2008 SC Dem primary. Clinton had the early lead in Nov and Dec. Commanding lead. But after the Iowa caucuses, it shifted to Obama. HRC, as rikyrah stated, had the “Meaning, somebody that I know has to vouch for you.” Yet she lost in SC. I’ve read that once Obama won Iowa, AA voters felt more comfortable voting for him and that’s why he won SC.
It’s still early. Rikyrah still hasn’t said why we should discount AA women organizers versus rando twitter dude. I’ll still support the D nominee. So /shrug
Elizabelle
@rp: Thank you. I always think of AA voters (and POC) as the adults in the room, and very pragmatic.
I think a lot are keeping an open mind and watching, watching, watching and listening. As are we all.
Elizabelle
@Leto: I worked the South Carolina primary in 2008 for Barack Obama. Spent about 3 weeks there. It was one of the best experiences of my life.
I wish you could be there, seeing an African American voter opening the door and finding a white lady there asking her/him to vote for Barack Obama and you see them thinking, my god, he can win. Look at what is on my doorstep.
What saddened me: poverty on a cinematic scope in some areas, and several of the Dems I was looking for had died since the previous election. Real demographic, life chances variances you don’t see in more urban areas.
I remember the young kids on bikes being deliriously happy about Obama. That was such a pleasure to be around.
chopper
@Cacti:
by trump and the gop. is this something for us to mimic in our primary?
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
Not worth it.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@rp: That’s what’s puzzling me. What I’m hearing is that AA voters consider Warren to be worse than Trump. In fact, she’s enough worse than Trump that they would rather have him than her, that AA voters would stay home in the General if she’s the nominee.
And that makes absolutely no sense.
Leto
@chopper: Here, give you the whole history: came from a D family (who didn’t vote because we/they live in SC in a super solid red state/county), though my first vote was in 1996, with my dad, for Clinton. That’s the only time I can remember my dad voting. Next vote was 2004 for Bush. Take into account my environment (military) and the fact that I wanted him to finish the job. That all radically changed in 2007-2008 with my Iraq deployment. After that, voted solidly for Dems starting in 2008 with Obama and my local elections. Voted absentee ballot overseas. My local county official knew me quite well as I’d bug her all the time about shit. Changed my voter registration to PA when we moved here and voted from my hospital bed last November. That was one of the first things I asked about, made sure I could do, when they brought me out of my coma. Made my first political donation in my life this year. $25. That’s a lot for me, right now.
Everyone on BJ is now caught up.
@NotMax: I await the naked frog march through the town square while you walk behind me intoning, “SHAME… SHAME… SHAME…”
?
Dev Null
@NotMax: Yep.
I am unconvinced by the arguments against Liz Warren, just as I am unconvinced by the arguments against Kamala Harris.
Warren has policies here and now, and if the best argument against her is that she was a Republican during Reagan’s Admin, well …
… speaking only for myself, I can live with that.
Incidentally, Jacobin (mag) argues against Warren on the grounds that Warren wasn’t really a teacher, she was a professor. [1]
Again, if that’s the worst one can say about a candidate …
All that said, I’ll vote for whoever wins the Dem nod, unless that person is Tulsi, in which case I’ll probably emigrate (should I be able to find a country that will take me.)
[1] referencing a 2nd-hand account at LG&M, Jacobin says “she taught only one year of (public?) school”, therefore she isn’t a teacher. YMMV…
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Matter of perspective, I suppose. Greatly simplified, but it seems rikyrah views it as an intractable problem and you view it as a surmountable challenge.
Cacti
@chopper:
I’m saying it’s going to happen, so, best to get it out while among friends than to wait on our enemies.
Dmbeaster
@Betty Cracker: That was my take on it. It also shows the extent of crazy disinformation at work here. Its not just the small crazy to set up Biden as allegedly corrupt. Its the big crazy that the whole Russia interference for Trump is really the Ukraine interference for Clinton. The Trump people are all in on a world built entirely on disinformation. Trump is borrowing the Putin playbook. I think it was actually really useful for the Dems to see the extent of this deceit.
gwangung
@Cacti: This is a fair comment. Not having a long track record with specific groups within the Democratic coalition is actual behavior and an argument that seems valid to me.
And it’s something that’s distinctly different than the criticism of Gabbard, vis a vis the LGTBQ community. There, she was actively working against gay issues, and has to do a LOT more in the way repentance to gain their trust. Here, Warren can be rightly accused of lip service, and will have to work a lot more to assure folks she will actively push these policies and not let them go by the wayside.
(I don’t really like arguments about her late conversion; she changed her mind and changed her behavior as she learned more. We WANT that type of behavior).
chopper
@Cacti:
so back in 2008 hillary, biden and edwards should have birthered obama? i don’t think that would have worked out the way you think.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Ruckus: He doesn’t have to remain President. The self-pity has always been there and will always be there.
Hook him up!
Dev Null
@Bruce K: Only if there’s money in it. /snark
E2A: @chopper: Exactly.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Yeah. And which is the case? Gonna be interesting. I just want a Democrat to win. Has to win. One of the top presidential elections in our history. I think, back to 1932. (1964 was a blowout.)
chopper
@Cacti:
in all honesty, i don’t see the GOP attacking warren in the general for her having been a republican back in the 80s.
NotMax
@Leto
Sadly, the town square is now the Maximegacorp Commons™, open by appointment only (deposit required).
//
Dev Null
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Hard to run a Baud2020 campaign without a Baud. “A lonely nation turns its eyes etc”
Leto
@Elizabelle: Not sure where you canvassed, but I lived in Dorchester county until 1997 when I joined the military. I was in Sumter county after that (Shaw AFB) for about 7 1/2 years. Yeah, there’s a shit ton of poverty and it can butt right up to the prosperous parts. In Sumter you’d go from a rich white part, across the road, and you’d be in “that part of town”. Same thing in Dorchester.
I have major internal conflicts because on the one hand I would, maybe, like to move back home and try to help improve the situation. On the other, I enjoy having a higher quality of life outside the state. Yes it costs more, but I can see my tax dollars going to useful things (education, public transport, parks…) rather than trying to lure another big business (Boeing, Volvo, BMW for example) to a “right-to-work” state and fucking over it’s residents.
gwangung
@Elizabelle: Hm. I don’t see Warren as being actively hostile to African American interests; I don’t think a lof of my black acquaintances see that, either. The worst I see is that the black community thinks it’s part of the same old, same old from a white politician….but that’s workable (and they would line up behind her if she does manage to win the nomination).
Dev Null
@Elizabelle: “no perfect candidate”
Wait, wut?
What about Baud?
Cacti
@chopper:
Negative. Warren’s 2 1/2 decades as a registered Republican have an actual basis in fact.
Elizabelle
@Leto: Our Obama organizers were traumatized by the loss in New Hampshire. They had Obama volunteers who LEFT THE FIELD early on primary day to go to the victory party. We were implored, again and again, not to do that.
I never take anything for granted, ever, when I am canvassing or on primary day. Be out there until AFTER the polls have closed. (One year I was there to intervene when poll workers wanted to close up and not allow a young man to vote, although he had arrived in time. It actually ensued that he was there to vote for the Republican! But I and another Democrat were there, advocating for his right to vote, and I remember him being very happy we were on his side. Principle is principle, for me.)
Leto
@NotMax: I shall make the appointment now and rummage around the couch for loose change /s
NotMax
@Dev Null
Baud! surpasses perfection. Perfection is something seen in the distance in the rear view mirror of Baud’s onrushing juggernaut.
chopper
@Cacti:
then why did you bring up birthering as an example re: scrutinizing a democrat’s record in the primary?
Princess
I’m a Warren supporter, after thinking I’d probably be a Harris supporter, but I totally understand why Black voters in the South (and probably elsewhere, like in my neighbourhood) overwhelmingly want Biden and probably will stick with him. It took that group a long time and Iowa and endorsements from the Kennedys and from Oprah (ie. as rikyrah says, people willing to “send”, to vouch for him) for those voters to shift from Hillary to Obama. Unless something like that happens again, that block will not budge and why should they? Hillary has a record. Biden has a record. What has Warren ever done for them but promise things? And same with Sanders, Harris, Beto, Castor, etc etc. And fi that means Biden wins, then I’ll be voting for Biden in November.
Richard Guhl
@satby:
It never ceases to amaze me how those who evince the strongest critiques of neoliberalism turn around and treat their voting as the most neoliberal thing of all, as a matter of personal consumer choice!
NotMax
@Leto
Shall need to know the preferred pitch for the bell to be draped over your shoulders.
:)
Elizabelle
@Leto: Florence, Marion, Dillon. I see Sumter: it was close.
Dorchester County. Had never heard of it, but Obama campaign had a big presence in Orangeburg, of course.
South Carolina is such a gorgeous state, but it is crazy train with politics. Breaks your heart. I think you have made the right decision to not live there.
Life is short.
Cacti
@chopper:
Because you asked how far in the past should she go to address concerns about her. Our enemies are willing to go all the way back to someone’s birth.
So the answer is: as far as necessary.
Elizabelle
@Princess: Good comment.
Frankensteinbeck
I’m not concerned with whether Warren being unpopular with AAs is fair. They get to decide. I’m concerned with whether it’s true, whether this is a wide scale dislike or anecdotes of a few. If it’s a widescale dislike, that’s a big, big problem. I can’t find data on this because it’s drowned in ‘who is your first pick’ polls where Biden is leading. Last I heard – and I’m not AA so I may be wildly off here – Biden was the strong lead because he’s viewed as safely electable despite his problematic history of being chummy with white supremacists. Plus, for the politically unconnected his connection to Obama has some reflected shine. None of the candidates strong with AA issues are strong with AA support. I don’t know what to think, except that if the AA vote sticks with Biden so be it, I’ll support him. AA women in particular have earned my vote.
Dev Null
@Uncle Cosmo: I see that you’re with the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.
Die, heretic!
(joke here, in the unlikely event that anyone hasn’t heard it.)
Dev Null
@NotMax: I’m convinced! Where do I sign on as a volunteer?!?
chopper
@Cacti:
so i assume you’re tearing biden a new asshole over his opposition to busing and cuddling up with white supremacists in the senate 40 years ago?
Dev Null
@Elizabelle:
Requisite response:
LetO
@Elizabelle: Ah, yeah I know those counties. Spent a good bit of time in Florence because I went to college nearby. It is a gorgeous state, but the overt/subtle racism is just toxic.
Please keep Avalune and me in mind for some weekend campaigning in Maine. ?
Elizabelle
@LetO: Hey, you and Avalune are going to be co-organizers! And maybe we can get MomSense in the mix too.
Dev Null
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
I vividly remember a post-2016-election news item about discussions with AA voters in a Detroit barbershop. The column quoted one AA customer who hadn’t voted as saying “Republican, Democrat, there’s no difference between them. Why should I vote?”
At the time I thought this was really, seriously weird.
And sample set of one, so standard deviation is …
Some while later I ran across reports of Russia’s IRA targeting AA voters with their anti-HRC social media disinformation campaigns.
I wonder if something like that is going on already.
Leto
@Elizabelle: Sold! I don’t know what I’ll do, but it will be done at 110%! ?
artem1s
@Ken: what they really mean….
Cacti
@chopper:
Now you’re deflecting. Biden’s public record isn’t a secret, and he has been attacked for it.
I hope Warren’s skin isn’t as thin as her supporters when the elbows do start getting thrown.
Elizabelle
@Dev Null: I am positive that is what is happening. You can see its tentacles here.
Although, the social media and twitter set is not everybody.
But you can absolutely see it, and it’s frightening.
hueyplong
@Frankensteinbeck: Don’t disagree. What I was trying to say is that we should not be distracted by how good the summary is, because the original by definition is even better.
Dev Null
@Leto:
Nice! Got a Monty Python flavor to it …
chopper
@Cacti:
i’m asking why you’re not attacking biden for his. you seem to take great issue with warren’s votes 40 years ago, why not biden’s?
i’m askin the same of all the other voters who are so skeptical of warren’s political history 40 years back who we’re discussing above.
Leto
@Dev Null: I was going for the Game of Thrones scene, but it does have a bit of Life of Brian to it ?
O. Felix Culpa
I appreciate a discussion of various candidates’ strength and weaknesses. It’s fair to put forward vulnerabilities that might be exploited in the general election. However, I think (as others have said) that we should be wary of repeating right-wing talking points as if they were our own arguments against some of our strongest candidates. We saw how that went down in 2016.
As for Elizabeth Warren, she is one of my top two candidates along with Kamala Harris. Yes, she was a registered Republican for a large chunk of her life. Seems to me it was one of those birthright things that she later recanted. I wish she had come to the realization earlier, but it doesn’t make sense to me to punish anyone who has seen the light and consistently and actively worked for Democratic causes since then. See: our highly esteemed blogmaster.
Does she need to do more to establish her credentials with the AA community? Probably, and it appears she is trying to do so. It’s on her and her campaign to make a credible appeal to our most important voting bloc. Holding her to that standard is different from smearing her because of a personal history that she turned away from 25 years ago.
Cacti
@chopper:
Zhena gogolia was right. Any time any question gets asked or doubt expressed about Warren, the fangs come out on her pompom squad.
PJ
@Cacti: All of the politicians running have a record – their histories aren’t secret, and you can see what legislation they’ve proposed or supported, and what they have actually accomplished politically. I’m guessing that most voters look at candidates through a singular prism – what are they actually going to do for me? I can hear what they are promising, but are they likely to actually try to get that done?
None of this is a mystery. Warren, who has been the subject of your attacks here over the past two days (I’m guessing because she is emerging as the front runner), has advocated for bankruptcy reform for more than two decades, set up the Consumer Financial Protection Board (which has been effective for consumers, despite Republican efforts to gut it), and has consistently voted for progressive legislation in the Senate for six and a half years. You can see her many policy proposals on her website. If you don’t like her because she grew up in a conservative family in a conservative state (married at 19, etc.) and identified as a Republican for the first part of her life, that’s your prerogative, but to continue to harp on it like it’s shocking news and that it’s damning is ridiculous. (It’s certainly not something Republicans are going to attack her for.) Warren is emerging as the front-runner for a reason – people like her and her policies, and you’re going to have to do better than point out her scarlet “R” to tear her down.
Dev Null
@Dmbeaster:
Josh Green posted a relevant column at Bloomberg yesterday (paywall after N free reads), or start with his twitter posts.
Shorter: The Biden-Ukraine conspiracy theory that snared Trump is a disinformation campaign hatched by Bannon, the Mercers, and the Clinton Cash rat-fvcker …
… which failed to cross over into the mainstream (well, until Ken Vogel picked it up in the FTFVT; thanks, Dean Baquet!) …
… but because Faux News agit-prop hashed and rehashed “Biden-Ukraine” on the small screen, Trump latched onto it, and the rest will be history (one hopes).
“… the greatest self-own in American political history”, Green calls it.
And Booman (at WashMo) had a column yesterday arguing that Giuliani, Trump, and Barr are Faux agit-prop True Believers … that Faux News has destroyed the minds of a generation of conservative activists. The most interesting novelty in the column was Booman’s description of Barr as being a Faux News agit-prop junkie … I didn’t know that.
Cacti
@PJ:
Actually, her reason for holding onto the label of Republican, well after they were established as the party of the southern strategy, Ronald Reagan, Jesse Helms, and Strom Thurmond is pretty much a secret thus far.
But I know, I never really loved her, so I shouldn’t get to ask.
College educated whites like her and her policies. It’s going to take more than that win an election.
Dev Null
@Leto:
Ah. Never picked up the habit. Basically stopped watching TV after about 1975.
Hmm, I was thinking of the Holy Grail – the bring out your dead scene – but ¿por que no los dos?
PJ
@Cacti: People respond to your comments because they are bullshit. You’re not attacking her because of her policies, or her political accomplishments (or lack thereof), but because of her non-political past. You keep repeating it over and over because you think it will work. It’s like attacking Biden for his son’s stupidity – who cares? But Republicans, and people like you, will use it because they think it will work to stop them.
chopper
@Cacti:
you’re deflecting. i’m not some warren stan, i’m just trying to get to the bottom of why people are holding warren’s politics in the 70s and 80s against her, but not doing the same for biden.
(personally my top pick is harris ATM)
Cacti
@PJ:
The conversation started out as why black voters aren’t warming up to Warren. Her past as a long time Republican was mentioned as one of multiple reasons, and much hissing and scratching from the Warren fan brigade ensued.
O. Felix Culpa
I’ll also add that there is a subtle element with respect to Elizabeth Warren’s original political affiliation that ignores the reality of many women, namely she was too busy raising a family and trying to support herself and her children to pay attention to politics for a large chunk of her life (as another commenter pointed out upthread). That might be correctly viewed as a facet of white privilege, but I think it should still be taken into account. My only engagement with politics when I was raising two children, coping with a bad marriage, and trying to build a career was voting. I was too exhausted to do anything more. It wasn’t until much later that I had the luxury of actively engaging in politics.
I like how Elizabeth overcame the obstacles and made significant policy differences later in life. To me, that should be applauded. Speaking from personal experience, it’s frickin’ hard to do and she could have had a perfectly comfortable life as a law professor. That she’s putting herself out there to address serious problems in our country is laudable, in my view. No need to wave the pompoms for her much less support her, but let’s recognize good work where it’s due.
gvg
What I think the problem with Warren and AA voters is her life’s story is all about money and not Civil Rights. The big events that made her change party were realizing the Rich were eating everything and those capitalist type laws weren’t fair. The earlier proof of racism sailed right over her life and didn’t impact her. The rich getting everything while the rest of us struggle and fight each other for scraps IS a problem that has been ignored and it is really a part of how Trump was able to fund his campaign, however right now we have a whole raft of really dangerous racists to get rid of and it’s risky to ignore that Warren has little proof she really gets that. It’s clear that money is her motivator in a good way, and Civil rights wasn’t.
Compare to Biden, who does have not the most enlightened farther past but willingly supported Obama by example that it was OK to support a black man as the most powerful person over our lives and that must have reassured many voters. He also spoke up with that last little push that got us gay marriage. That is likely to bring a certain amount of loyalty. My problem with him is I fear he is too nice and will not be tough enough to clean things up. He is a nice guy. Jimmy Carter got pushed around too much in my recollection. Biden …I don’t think he is as smart or clear sighted as Obama, and even O had mistakes IMO.
I think this may be Warren’s problem. Even Harris might not have the perfect reassuring record here. At this point I think it is kind of late to acquire more cred that way. Not screwing up on race issues is the best they can do. Then when we have a primary winner, if it’s Warren, she’ll have to use surrogates to reassure minority voters. Obama and Hillary would probably be very influential. If Biden loses and is not bitter, then him really telling black voters it’s OK would also help.
There has never been a perfect candidate. Even Obama I knew when I voted for him that I didn’t care for his education policy. So we’ll have to see who it is. Right now, vote for who you think is the best pick but it will be the person some combination of all thinks is best. There are strategies for dealing with different weaknesses. I do think Warren will try to compensate for problems wheras Sanders would deny they existed. Not sure about Biden.
Elizabelle
@O. Felix Culpa: Excellent comments, O.
I am not a Warren Uber Alles person, but I also don’t like to see someone get slammed on easily refuted grounds.
Which is why I really think this is an identity politics misinformation campaign, helping along natural mistrust.
O. Felix Culpa
@gvg:
That is a fair point and it’s disappointing that she didn’t see the problem of racism and the GOP sooner. I’d like to see EW explain how she changed and why, and where she is now on the issue of race in our country. Her potential voters and especially the AA community deserve no less.
Dev Null
@Cacti: So, you’re saying that if Liz Warren gets the nod, you’ll sit out the election, amirite?
Cacti
@gvg:
I’d say that covers most of it.
I’d also throw in that some of the reluctance to embrace her also comes from the fact that she has no record of delivering or implementing the kind of “Big Structural Change” she proposes. It seems to come with an unspoken subtext of “Trust me, I’m from Harvard” which has the opposite effect of actually reassuring the doubtful.
Cacti
@Dev Null:
Not at all.
I’m saying I doubt her ability to win the general election.
chopper
@O. Felix Culpa:
indeed. the people who keep characterizing her as a ‘long-time republican’ back then are ignoring the fact that she just wasn’t politically active then. people make it sound like she was a gop activist or apparatchik or something. she was a registered republican who was too busy dealing with shit to do anything more than vote. this is actually really, really common in this country.
Elizabelle
@Cacti:
Cacti, people can “doubt her ability” without actively trying to hobble her, Which is what you are doing. This is straight out of the “take down Hillary Clinton” playbook from 2016. HRC, who WON the popular vote and, for all we know, won the EC vote too. That was the crookedest election I have seen.
We see what you are doing.
Although, I think you’re doing this because you need the attention. There, there, cacti.
Dev Null
@chopper:
I’m not sure how that would play… imagining the following scenario:
Joking, of course … but I don’t think “Liz Warren voted for RR” would bother a lot of Dems.
But what do I know?
Cacti
@Elizabelle:
You think I’m able to hobble Warren’s campaign with what I say in the BJ comment section?
I’m flattered.
Dev Null
@Cacti: I realize I’m being a pain in the arse – again, it comes naturally – but perhaps my question was insufficiently direct. Let me rephrase the question:
Will you vote for Liz Warren if she’s the Dem nominee?
Cacti
@Dev Null:
Of course.
chopper
@Dev Null:
i think it would bother some dems in the primary, or at the very least could be used against her in it, but yeah in the general it wouldn’t do shit. like i’m going to stay home b/c she pulled the lever for reagan back when i was still in diapers.
Dev Null
@Cacti:
er, CFPB? How big must a Big Structural Change™ be to count, in your mind?
in re “racism”, wondering if that’s not the “class rather than race” blinkered vision that a lot of further-lefties have … and if you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about, I’ll happily agree …
… really saying only that Bernie has (quite justifiably) taken heat for this reason… it goes with his ideological terrain. (I think.)
OTOH, a concern about class inequality seems odd for a Republican; OTO, the same is true about race.
No real point here, just thinking out loud.
The Blog Dahlia
@O. Felix Culpa:
Ol’ Uncle Joe has a blind spot a mile wide on this same issue. Seems a problem with the older candidates, ignoring Sanders because, well, he’s a schmuck. The younger ones have grown up with a GOP that had tripled down on the crazy bullshit.
Dev Null
@chopper:
Might be more effective with old fogies like me, for whom voting against RR was a moral imperative, but yeah, I was thinking along similar lines, to wit: seems unlikely that a lot of voters born after 1975 really give a damn whether she voted for RR.
Dev Null
@Cacti: Roger that.
Dev Null
@Elizabelle: Completely off-topic, if there’s a need for 2020 general election canvassers in the NY-NJ-PA-CT greater metro area, I’m available.
I’m also completely inexperienced, so I’d need training and/or partnering … never done any retail politicking.
chopper
@O. Felix Culpa:
it’d be nice to see warren explain why she didn’t recognize the GOP as the party of racism back in the 70s and 80s. of course, it would be nice to see biden explain how he still doesn’t see the GOP as the party of racism today. dude swears up and down that all they need to do is dump trump and suddenly they’ll come out of their fog and come back down to earth and be ‘good guys’ again. it’s lucy and the football all over.
satby
@Dev Null: EW has specifically stated the last Republican she voted for (in a presidential election) was Gerald Ford, which was before Reagan’s run.
In 1980, I registered independent and voted for John Anderson. So we all have skeletons.
And as a matter record, two of my AA females friends split on who they support: one for Warren and one for Kamala. Another likes Pete.the
No one is rooting for Biden right now. They must not have gotten the memo.
Elizabelle
@Dev Null: You will love canvassing! It’s effective at reaching voters, many of whom are glad to see you at their door, and it’s great fresh air and exercise.
Will keep an ear out for you, but you can also check in with the Democratic organization and campaigns in any of the states/localities you’d like to canvass.
Moms Demand Action (gun violence prevention) is doing a lot of local canvassing on behalf of candidates who support their objectives, which is overwhelmingly Democrats, this very fall.
My biggest tip: Do not let them give you a big apartment complex to canvass. That is the most effort and lowest voter contact I ever experience. They’re never home or have moved. I have my doubts how effective door to door canvassing is there. Demand a better turf.
O. Felix Culpa
@chopper:
The difference in standards just might have something to do with…[ahem]…gender.
Elizabelle
@O. Felix Culpa:
John Cole himself has appeared on the blog, with a post about how the MSM handled Bernie’s heart surgery (Cole just heard about it) vs. the deathwatch for Hillary, because her was so unhealthy.
Elizabelle
The new post by John Cole:
https://balloon-juice.com/2019/10/03/they-always-had-it-in-for-her/
Dev Null
@satby:
Ah. Hadn’t heard that she’d talked about her voting history, thanks.
So you can’t even hold against her a vote for Reagan … and yet, “Republican” is disqualifying. Lessee, her last Republican vote was circa 1976, then. That’s [counts on fingers and toes, runs out of both] uh 43 years ago.
I am not getting the disqualification here. 51 years ago I voted Republican, and I’m about the same age as Liz Warren, give or take a few years.
Not since.
Yeah, I voted for Anderson while a Dem. As skeletons go, that’s the least of my concerns.
Dev Null
@Elizabelle: Thaniks, Elizabelle!
“Fresh air and exercise” … you’re the cyclist, right? :-)
Any and all tips welcome…
Pretty much booked up until mid-November this year, but sure, I’ll look into it.
J R in WV
We have contributed to K. Harris, and we support E. Warren a whole lot. May well both vote for her in the primary here. Do not care that Warren was an R way back, I forgive that, since she is now a fierce liberal.
What is the candidate working for today? That is what counts. Will vote for Biden if he is the nominee, won’t work for his win during the primary season, he’s a business supporter, I’m not.
Elizabelle
@Dev Null: You have a good memory. I do love cycling. Although have not done much lately.
We will get you out there canvassing! Protest marches and events are great fresh air too!
Dev Null
@Elizabelle: Sounds like a plan! Plan A!
I have hesitated to volunteer locally because my area is deep-blue… and I’d prefer to go where there’s a need, not to run up the totals locally… so most of my contributions have been via ActBlue.
Asking you because (rightly or wrongly) I get the impression that you’re involved with the national party.
re protests, yep, I’ve been to several in the past year, although sadly the last few haven’t amounted to much.
re cycling: remembering a thread maybe six months or a year ago … you have or had a classic bike, but that’s about all I remember.
re miles: yeah, speaking only for me, I keep hitting (figurative) speed bumps that keep me off the bike. Rode lots of miles in May-June, couldn’t ride July-August, started up again last month. Frustrating.