Facebook Is The Enemy

Transcripts of private company meetings have Mark Zuckerberg saying he’ll “go to the mat” to stop Elizabeth Warren’s plan to break up big tech companies.

Judd Leglum has been tracking Trump’s Facebook ad spend, and Trump is pouring millions into bullshit lies on Facebook:

Leglum has identified a couple of different completely fake, foreign-influenced astroturf Facebook pages, such as “Police Lives Matter”, which had 170,000 fans and spread misinformation about cop deaths and other police-related news. This page was supposedly run by a police officer living in New York City, but was actually run by people from Kosovo. Facebook took the pages down after Leglum pointed them out but, like Twitter, Facebook is absolute shit at policing their platform. And there’s no surprise why: having Zuckerberg monitor his own platform is like having Jeffery Epstein guard a girls’ middle school. Facebook has no incentive to police their platform because of the ad revenue they receive via all this trolling and fakery.

If Warren is nominated and loses, Facebook will be part of the reason, and Zuckerberg will be quietly complicit.






295 replies
  1. 1

    Facebook owned Whatsapp wreaked havoc in the Indian elections this spring. It is a global force of destabilization.

  2. 2

    And there’s no surprise why: it’s like Epstein guarding a girls’ middle school – they have no incentive to police their platform because of the ad revenue they receive via all this trolling and fakery.

    It’s even worse than that. Monitoring their platform for fakes is also a big expense. They have no reason to want to do it, and they won’t until they’re forced to, either by government action or by people giving up on them because their platform is a cesspit.

  3. 3
    MattF says:

    Facebook is paradise for trolls— everyone at Facebook knows it and is eager to make a buck on it. Zuckerberg’s politics, fwiw, is a subspecies of IGMFU, with the added feature of lying all the time to everyone about everything.

  4. 4
    Betty Cracker says:

    I deleted my real Facebook page a couple of years ago when the extent of their complicity in the Russian coup became known. Still have my fake one though; it’s handy for ads and what-not. Would love to see that company on the chopping block.

  5. 5

    @schrodingers_cat:
    And Facebook was the primary means of inciting violence against the Rohingya during the Burmese pogrom against them. They are literally an accessory to crimes against humanity, which seems like adequate justification for burning the company to the ground and salting the ashes.

  6. 6
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Facebook is, unfortunately, extremely popular in Ukraine, where tomorrow’s strategies are being tested today.

  7. 7
    laura says:

    Faceberg is of the devil.
    I have a bicycle with an app based battery wheel (it’s the station wagon of bikes!) and requires a password. The app didn’t care for my “not safe enough” password -one i can actually remember, and suggested logging on through facebook.
    Irony is dead.

  8. 8
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Ben Rhodes
    @ brhodes
    When FB got criticized by the right in 2016, Zuckerberg scrambled to have a summit with right-wing pundits while his platform was being used by Russia to spread right-wing disinformation to help elect Trump.
    “Donald Trump has more fans on Facebook than any other presidential candidate. And Fox News drives more interactions on its Facebook page than any other news outlet in the world. It’s not even close.” – Zuckerberg statement after the meeting.

    (this is one of those issues that tends to draw one of our more vituperative quasi-trolls and her nasty histrionics because she has to look at pictures of her college friends’ grandchildren, or something)

  9. 9

    @Roger Moore: Whatsapp posts have been responsible for many a lynching in India’s Hindi heartland.

  10. 10
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I deleted my old FB account and created a new one solely to know what the lunch specials are every day at the diner closest to my office. So far, I’ve friended about 8 people, all for very pragmatic reasons.

  11. 11

    BJP is malevolently using it as a fire hose of stupid bigotry. BTW I also saw a slick Russian manufactured propaganda film aimed at Indian audienced and forwarded using whatsapp.

  12. 12
    Kay says:

    I think all incredibly wealthy people will “go the mat” to stop Warren. I’m backing her but I don’t kid myself. She’s a threat to these people and they will do anything and everything to stop her. I don’t think they planned on her doing this well and they’re freaking out.

  13. 13
    PJ says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Facebook embedded its own employees, at Facebook’s own cost, in Trump’s campaign to assist him in spreading falsehoods through Facebook. There was a doc I saw sometime in 2017 (via the Guardian, I think) where one of the Facebook managers expressed how proud she was of the work they did.

  14. 14

    I have never had FB but had to get on Whatapp for extended family in India. Because I am blunt I don’t get as many stupid forwards as my husband kitteh does. But the last election in India has turned him into a firebrand also.

  15. 15

    @Kay: Any D nominee is going to get the same treatment. I disagree with her analysis of what ails us, it is not economics. She is what BS would if he actually had a plan beside yelling and pointing fingers at people who disagree with him.

  16. 16
    different-church-lady says:

    But…. but…. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KEEP UP WITH PEOPLE I SUPPOSEDLY CARE ABOUT BUT OTHERWISE HAVE NO CONTACT WITH??2?

  17. 17
    Yarrow says:

    TreasonBook.

  18. 18
    Betty says:

    OT but I want to mention the trial of the policewoman who shot Botham Jean in his apartment in Dallas. The jury is now out. I just found out that i know Botham’s mother and am friends with a close family friend. He was a wonderful young man from St. Lucia. This is such a tragedy. I learned this morning that the judge told the jury they could consider the castle doctrine in defense of the shooting even though she was in his apartment! This insane gun culture must change. I am heartsick.

  19. 19
    Joe Falco says:

    Warren has a better Rogues Gallery than Batman does. I hope her enemies lose sleep every night because of her improving numbers.

  20. 20
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Betty: I learned this morning that the judge told the jury they could consider the castle doctrine in defense of the shooting even though she was in his apartment!

    that’s just obscene

  21. 21
    Gvg says:

    @Betty: I think they can consider HIS castle rights. She didn’t have any in that scenario.

  22. 22
    Nicole says:

    @Betty: Yeah. I was spitting mad after reading the Castle Doctrine BS yesterday and am now obsessively checking Twitter for any updates. Not that reading how the case was handled isn’t infuriating enough, but this was … argh! Really? REALLY?

    I can only hope that if it deliberations go on a long time it’s because they’re trying to decide between murder and manslaughter.

  23. 23
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    What’s Putin’s play here? I get wanting to fuck with the US and EU, but why India? Unless it’s because they’re an up and comer and Putin wants to control them because of their large population. Or he’s helping out Modi because they’re fascist birds of a feather.

    Y’know, destabilizing the world while the planet itself is dying doesn’t strike me as particularly smart. I’ve tended to think Putin is very stupid in this regard. There were rumors recently about his eldest daughter meeting with a rouge geneticist who wants to genetically engineer children.

    I mean, what good will that do when most of the world is uninhabitable (and no, genetic engineering will not help them. This isn’t sci-fi)?

  24. 24
    the Conster says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Other than the old white finger wagging fraud who can go straight to hell, she’s going to be the hardest candidate to support from my perspective. There are so many problems with her and her NA claims, it will swamp her. I also don’t want anything to to with defending someone who wants to repeal and replace Obamacare. Harris should never have veered into that lane.

  25. 25
    Nicole says:

    @Gvg:

    I think they can consider HIS castle rights. She didn’t have any in that scenario.

    Ah, you would think so, but racism and Texas:
    https://www.texastribune.org/2019/09/30/what-texas-castle-doctrine-amber-guyger-murder-trial/

    So basically, if the jury buys that she really, truly thought it was her apartment, they can let her off scot-free. Never mind she disregarded every rule she allegedly learned in cop school (hello, retreat and call for help?) and let him bleed out while she called 911with gauze and glovers in her backpack because she didn’t think to try to save him? AAAREUUUUGHSLERLRLEKJLKGSGHL

  26. 26
    rikyrah says:

    Zuckerberg will be quietly complicit.

    Take away quietly.

  27. 27

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: The slickly produced video was about the 1971 war about how Russia is the only real friend India has. It was not pro-Modi per se.

  28. 28
    rikyrah says:

    @Nicole:

    So basically, if the jury buys that she really, truly thought it was her apartment, they can let her off scot-free. Never mind she disregarded every rule she allegedly learned in cop school (hello, retreat and call for help?) and let him bleed out while she called 911with gauze and glovers in her backpack because she didn’t think to try to save him? AAAREUUUUGHSLERLRLEKJLKGSGHL

    SHE was the police officer.
    SHE was the public servant.
    SHE shot a man in his home…
    AND NEVER ATTEMPTED TO HELP HIM.

    There should be a higher standard expected of public servants.
    And, for shooting him and then NOT HELPING HIM..
    she should get manslaughter – at least.

  29. 29
    jl says:

    @PJ: IIRC, Facebook gave HRC campaign the same offer, but they turned it down.

    Warren only one making dramatic move up in national polls, and has good chance of winning two early primary states, and coming in second tn two more.
    So Zuck has something to worry about. Maybe FB will come out with a clunky selfie feature that puts stupid customized ads in the selfie? With Zuck’s face stuck in there too? Maybe a face and feature filter so everything looks like Zuck?

  30. 30
    germy says:

    @the Conster:

    There are so many problems with her and her NA claims

    You mean the genetic test she took that revealed some Native American ancestry?

  31. 31
    Betty says:

    @Nicole: You can imagine how his family and friends are taking this. They are people with strong faith. That has to help when you face this kind of loss compounded by so much injustice.

  32. 32
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Facebook also owns Instagram and are deploying it as well in the anti-democracy, pro-fascist activities they promote.

  33. 33
    john b says:

    Pompeo’s about to be impeached:

    10:30 a.m.: Pompeo balks at subpoenas and depositions

    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo balked Tuesday at subpoenas and requests for depositions by House Democrats, writing that they were undermined by “profound procedural and legal deficiencies.”

    Wapo tic-tock

  34. 34
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @the Conster:

    and her NA claims, it will swamp her.

    Nobody cares about that

  35. 35
    MattF says:

    @the Conster: You support Biden? Or who?

  36. 36
    Yarrow says:

    @rikyrah: No kidding. Zuckerberg isn’t being “quietly complicit.” He’s doing it all in full view. Facebook’s full involvement with Cambridge Analytica and the Mercers and Russian mob money has yet to come to light. When it does Zuckerberg is going to be in deep shit. He should take down that fake women’s empowerment person Sheryl Sandberg with him when he goes.

  37. 37
    OGLiberal says:

    I’m on Facebook because of my job (digital marketing) but always hated it. I don’t care about the cute thing your kid did today or if you are feeling a bit down this morning or what amazing meal you had for dinner last night. But now, it’s not only inane, it’s nefarious. It’s a bit funny and scary that what started out as a “cool kids” thing is now where retired crazy grandmas go to forward along the latest “scare white people” conspiracy theories.

    Twitter isn’t much better but at least it serves a purpose, for me, as a news feed.

  38. 38
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Listening to the O’Bros podcast recorded a few days ago, and they’re talking about how Facebook drives the political narrative more than twitter. You see/hear a lot of pundits and commentators dismissing the twitter-verse, talk about facebook is less pointed, more just kind of accepted as that’s the way it is.

    ETA: they’ve been harping on this for a few months, that trump is spending millions on Facebook ads and Dems are collectively on the sidelines.

  39. 39
    Tim C. says:

    Data Point. I’ve noticed the Trump adds of Youtube a lot too. And that’s despite the fact I don’t watch much in the way political videos. Anyone have info or such on that?

  40. 40
    Patricia Kayden says:

    So Pompeo isn’t going to attend his deposition and isn’t allowing any other State Department employee called by House Democrats to be deposed. So what’s next?

  41. 41
    the Conster says:

    @germy:

    She isn’t Cherokee and neither were here parents, and she’s going to have to have a better explanation for her choices to identify herself as NA in the instances where she did, and her stories about the family lore don’t add up. Her parents were both well known locally as being from white families. Cultural appropriation is a bad look.

  42. 42
    the Conster says:

    @MattF:

    I don’t have a candidate yet, but would like to see Harris and Klobuchar do much better.

  43. 43

    @Tim C.: YouTube is a cesspool too. They are always suggesting RW and conspiracy videos no matter what you watch. I report them as spam and then they don’t show up in my feed. If you let the mouse hover over a video that shows up in your video feed, you will see several options, one option is report. I either choose spam or harmful or abusive content, whatever is applicable for a particular video. I usually do it on the basis of the person promoting the video without actually watching the video. Then the next time it does not show up in my feed.

  44. 44
    scav says:

    A teeny chance that maybe the low information voters might finally begin to notice the problem isn’t just his trumpiness, but the whole team, the entire grand old fish from snout to tail reeks? Or is that merely my usual sunny optimism kicking in again.

  45. 45
    gwangung says:

    @the Conster: Quite simply, she reacted as a white person with respect to this.

    But being Native American is skew to genetics.

  46. 46
    Elizabelle says:

    @the Conster: Oh get over it. That does not define Elizabeth Warren. You are tiresome. Stop repeating wingnut memes.

  47. 47
    patrick II says:

    @john b:
    Pompeo (in the post article john b linked to, on why he will not submit to subpoenas):

    I will use all means at my disposal to prevent and expose any attempts to intimidate the dedicated professionals whom I am proud to lead and serve alongside at the Department of State.”

    What a pompous joke. After the Trump administration has hollowed-out State, disdainfully ignores most of the advice of veteran State officers, leaves ambassadorships unfilled including Ukraine’s who’s ambassador Pompeo recalled because she wouldn’t go along with blackmailing a jeapordized Ukraine if they didn’t frame Biden, not to mention plans to undercut FBI and the intelligence communities investigation denigrating the competency of both, he’s complaining because honoring a subpoena dishonors federal employees at State?

    Incoherent self-righteousness is not a good look, but evidently a necessary one if you are participating in a crime against your country and you want to keep up appearances.

  48. 48
    rikyrah says:

    She has been found GUILTY OF MURDER

  49. 49
  50. 50
  51. 51

    Why are so many T enablers fat? Pompeo, Barr, T himself. Are they stress eating?

  52. 52
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @rikyrah: Good

    ETA: genuinely surprised the jury didn’t go with a lesser charge, if that was an option in this trial

  53. 53
    germy says:

    @the Conster: Was her father disowned by her mother’s family, or was her mother disowned by her father’s family, for marrying a Native American? I don’t remember the details.

  54. 54

    Guyger has been found guilty of murder, says NBC

    ETA: I am too slow!

  55. 55
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @patrick II: Kurt Volker resigned last Friday. He can tell Pompeo to pound sand, if he wants.

  56. 56
    germy says:

    @rikyrah:
    Wow!

    I did NOT expect that.

    https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/amber-guyger-botham-jean-verdict/index.html

    I thought they’d either find her innocent, or at the most manslaughter. I guess her tears didn’t work on the jury.

  57. 57
    Miss Bianca says:

    @the Conster:

    There are so many problems with her and her NA claims, it will swamp her.

    Bullshit. She’s going to have way, way more problems with the fact that the self-appointed MOTUs are threatened by her economic policies than that receding tempest in a teapot. The “economic anxiety” of the rich and powerful, coupled with a healthy dose of misogyny from the dirtbag left, are going to be much bigger challenges to her candidacy than her family history.

  58. 58
    BC in Illinois says:

    @Betty:
    Amber Guyger,
    convicted of murder.

    ETA – – as other people have already noted. Like many, I am surprised.

  59. 59
    trollhattan says:

    @the Conster:
    It’s completely played out as an issue. Move on–polls demonstrate everybody else has.

    Smartest campaign and the most tireless campaigner. Seems to be working.

  60. 60
    cain says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    I still have mine which I keep track of people’s birthdays and the like but I’m not active in it. My gf though is very active. I don’t think she’s going to get off of it anytime soon.

  61. 61
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Betty Cracker: I’ve never had a FB account but completely understand how useful it is to connect to far flung friends and family which is what my sister and hubby use it for. Too bad Zuckerberg has no incentive to keep it free of propaganda.

  62. 62
  63. 63
    Yarrow says:

    @Patricia Kayden: It’s actually the other way around. The incentive is for Zuckergerg/Facebook to encourage propaganda. That’s how they make their money.

  64. 64
    germy says:

    I feel like Zuckerboig got rich convincing people that FB was indispensible. “I need it to keep up with family and friends!”

    But you need a computer connection and a phone to sign up with FB. Both useful tools for staying in touch with family and friends. Without FB.

  65. 65
  66. 66
    trollhattan says:

    @BC in Illinois:
    Even Texas can get some things right. Good.

    I don’t feel hatred for her, pity, really, but the poor young man deserves justice. And the PD might want to rethink officers pulling double shifts. You carry a gun and probably drive a patrol car, you’re not stocking the Safeway diary case. Tired people make mistakes. Even fatal ones.

  67. 67
    Jeffro says:

    @john b: @patrick II: Wow. Looks like the inner cesspool really is intent on riding this thing all the way in…ok Rudy G, ok Pompeo, ok Barr, you’ve made your intentions perfectly clear. You don’t get to pick and choose which subpoenas you respond to, and you don’t get to zip around the world collecting fake info to try and justify your criminal enterprise and/or indulge the Ill Douche’s conspiracy claims.

    Fire at will, Madame Speaker.

  68. 68
    Fair Economist says:

    Monopolies require government intervention.

    I think a good way to deal with the Facebook problem is to treat electronic messaging as mail, and have the Post Office do it. Send government communications through that. It’s what the Founders would have wanted – they gave the government a monopoly on postal service.

  69. 69
    trollhattan says:

    Somebody just parked a beater Prius in front of the house; I heard it a block away. Either no muffler or somebody stole the catalytic converter (Prii have very expensive cats). I’m used to little ol’ ladies driving them, but now they’re just used cars. Saw one last week with an NRA sticker.

  70. 70
    germy says:

    I am honestly stunned. I really thought she was going to get away with it. #AmberGuyger https://t.co/o6oyTReeGB— Imani Gandy 🔥 (@AngryBlackLady) October 1, 2019

    When I saw her on the stand with her new blonde hair, she reminded me of Jodi Arias’s makeover for her court appearance. (Which didn’t work, either)

  71. 71
    Redshift says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷:

    Y’know, destabilizing the world while the planet itself is dying doesn’t strike me as particularly smart. I’ve tended to think Putin is very stupid in this regard.

    The impression I’ve gotten is that Putin is like Trump; he doesn’t give a damn about what happens to the rest of the planet after he’s gone.

    As to why he’s attacking democracies everywhere, it may be because he sees the Soviet Union as the glory days of Russia, and one of the goals of Soviets was to convince people that their democracies were corrupt and no better than communist dictatorships.

  72. 72
    the Conster says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    She’s got many issues and problems to deal with in a GE, including the fact that if she’s elected, her Senate seat goes to a Republican. I’m waiting to see what happens in the South Carolina primary.

  73. 73
    sukabi says:

    Makes you wonder what Zuckerberg’s meeting at the WH the other day consisted of.

  74. 74
    germy says:

    I wonder if the judge’s decision to allow the jury to use the “Castle” defense was actually as offensive to the jury as it was to most decent people?

  75. 75
    trollhattan says:

    @Jeffro:
    Confident that Nancy SMASH has known all along they needed to be brought down by the sheer mass of their misdeeds, and that she and the Dems were not in a position to dictate when, only how to respond. So yes, the time is now, fire at will!

  76. 76
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @the Conster:

    her Senate seat goes to a Republican

    Temporarily.

  77. 77
    Belafon says:

    “If __________ is nominated and loses, Facebook will be part of the reason, and Zuckerberg will be quietly complicit.”

    Still a valid statement

  78. 78
    Yarrow says:

    @germy: She had blonde hair before the trial. I’m sure she had it done again for her case, but she’s been a blonde for a long time.

  79. 79
    Amir Khalid says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    I too am on WhatsApp because my family insists, but I never click on any links that are not strictly family news and I use it as seldom as I can.

  80. 80
    ruemara says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: lol. I guess NA are no one. Look, be a fan but understand something. Her recent conversion to being Democrat over finances isn’t going over well for some POC, & LGBTQIA. And “some” NA ancestry in genetics isn’t being NA. I also have to look intense askance at allowing herself to take credit as a minority faculty member. It’s a very bad look. I don’t like people who come late to party & then decide they should run it. I also don’t care much for someone who could sit out the AIDS crisis but develop a conscience due to bank failures. I get why you guys like her, so if you really like her, you better start to acknowledge and understand why key segments of the base are not for her in the primary. I haven’t even touched how her “she’s a wonk, she has all the plans” rep is really, “she takes from others and doesn’t ascribe even shared credit”.

  81. 81
    Citizen Alan says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I’m not proud of this, but one of my biggest motivators for trying to lose weight is so that I can fat-shame Trump supporters without any hypocrisy.

  82. 82
    Kay says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Any D nominee is going to get the same treatment.

    She has the best campaign. Hey, I was open to Harris and I defended her from the “Kamala the cop” smear but it is not my fault she didn’t find her footing. She’s not an economic populist. I don’t think that was authentic to her and it showed. She needs to tell us what she is. There was a perfectly clear middle lane – Biden is weak- and for some unknown reason she didn’t take it. That’s not my fault. I was cheering her on to crowd out Biden. She didn’t do it. I’ll back any of them including Bernie. I want the judges.

  83. 83
    germy says:

    @Yarrow: Looked a lot darker in the photos I saw immediately after her arrest.

  84. 84
    jl says:

    @Miss Bianca: I agree. Warren paid the proper amount of attention to the NA ‘claims’ controversy, and the proper amount of attention is not much. She went ahead and built a strong campaign and put out a lot of interesting proposals that appeal to a large number of people. Then she decided to revisit the issue at the proper forum, which as a conference of Native American groups. And it turned out that the protests were from just a few people, there wasn’t widespread ill will about it in that community.

    Contrast to Joe Biden who at the beginning tried to run on Obama nostalgia and not much more. And then people wondered why Biden got slammed with all this old stuff. Well, what else was there interesting to talk about. Getting out Obama era pix and getting weepy about Obama and Uncle Joe paling around together only goes so far.

    And apparently Trump thinks he can defeat Warren by calling her names. When he breaks out the racial slurs, most people won’t even remember what he is talking about. But Trump’s base will love it and cheer, so Trump will wallow in the name calling. And Trump looks set to destroy himself with his obsession with Biden, as Uncle Joe fades as the clear front runner.

    If recent trends keep up, it will be a race between Warren and Biden. Then Sanders in an increasingly distant third. And Harris and Buttegieg trying to recover. I hope Harris does do better.

  85. 85
  86. 86
    Kay says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    so that I can fat-shame Trump supporters without any hypocrisy.

    Oh, no. You’re better than that. One of the best things to come out of the public school anti-bullying initiatives is kids now regularly scold other kids on fat shaming. It’s better. It’s a higher bar for behavior. Progress! :)

  87. 87
    Amir Khalid says:

    @germy:
    There was no legitimate exercise of a police officer’s authority by Amber Guyger. She was not in her own home, she was the intruder. I still don’t understand how the castle doctrine would apply to an intruder’s defence.

  88. 88
    Elizabelle says:

    @Amir Khalid: Thank dog that Dallas jury got it right.

  89. 89
    Jeffro says:

    @sukabi: I suspect it mostly consisted of the low-rent Scumbag In Chief whispering in MZ’s ear that EW was going to take him for every last dime and leave him penniless & powerless in the street. No more Mr. Silicon Valley Social Media Whiz Kid for YOU, mister – that evil Pocahontas is coming for your network and will stifle all freedumb forevar!!1!

    Something like that.

  90. 90
    Yarrow says:

    @ruemara: Yeah, Warren has issues with POC and that issue doesn’t seem to be acknowledged here or in the media all that often. It’s potentially a big problem for her.

    My problem with the NA issue was that I thought she handled it very poorly. She took Trump’s bait, she didn’t consult NA leaders and talk to them privately about the issue and how to handle it. She just did the DNA test and was left cleaning up the mess and has had to continue to apologize. The content of the issue was bad but her judgment and how she handled it was also bad.

  91. 91
    germy says:

    How long before #45 weighs in on the Guyger verdict? I’m expecting an outraged tweet, or a disgusted mention on the lawn by during a press “conference”.

  92. 92
    germy says:

    @Jeffro: How much money do these people need? He’s already got more than he could spend in many lifetimes.

  93. 93
    germy says:

    @Elizabelle: I remember the photo someone found of Guyger posing with her family (before the shooting) and one of the dudes is flashing the white power “OK” sign.

  94. 94
    Another Scott says:

    Facebook and Twitter are horrible. Film at 11.

    I fear, though, that unless we change the legal framework under which these giant corporations operate, then it’s only going to get worse.

    Corporations have legal protections and in return they should have legal responsibilities. Like not operating in ways that destroy society. I don’t know how to do it, but there should be some sort of “operating in the public interest” clause in the incorporation documents that smart lawyers and smart prosecutors can use as a basis for class-action suits to break them up or dissolve them when they are a cancer on society. The idea that corporations are untouchable is cancerous.

    How one does it in the days of global communication is left as an exercise for the reader. But it needs to be done, IMHO.

    Alternatively, have an exponential corporate tax that scales with revenue. Sure, you can have $500B in revenue a year, or 1B users, but we’ll tax you at 200% above $100B and 100M users. If we can’t figure out a way to get you to clean up disinformation and misinformation spread by your corporation, we’ll make sure you stay small enough not to have outsize influence.

    The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

    Grrr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  95. 95
    Amir Khalid says:

    @germy:

    How much money do these people need?

    A lot less than they already have. How much money do they want? All of it.

  96. 96

    @germy: Exactly. It turns out the amount they need is “all.”

  97. 97
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @ruemara:

    allowing herself to take credit as a minority faculty member.

    But that’s not what she did; that’s a Republican talking point. She did not “take credit,” she offered assistance to students.

  98. 98
    jl says:

    @Kay: I think Harris did some very self destructive waffling on important issues, most important on Health reform. That hurt her. I think she has found her footing on good policy. I think her Medicare for All plan is good, and her thinking about the final shape of a health care system is as sound as hard core Medicare for All. No reason why can’t be a mix of public and private insurance, as long as the private sector is very heavily regulated, which is what Harris said she wants to do recently. But her transition is much too long, I think a clumsy attempt to placate consumers and corporate interests. Ordinary people don’t want to , and manly can’t wait, ten years.

    Warren has been strategically vague on her health care policy, but so far it hasn’t come off as waffling. Not sure how long she can keep that up. My guess is that she is waiting until its mainly her versus Biden, when she can sell a policy that is economically sound and politically feasible, without Sanders as a close rival. The Medicare for All purist fanatics will be less likely to make trouble if a more flexible Warren approach is only option besides whatever much weaker policy Biden comes up with.

    My guess is that Warren understands the overall health care industry and consumer finance of health care enough to know that the debate in the US emphasizes narrow issues mechanism of financing health care, which can be, and is, handled in a satisfactory way in more than a dozen ways. Price gouging by corporate provider interests is just a big a problem, but dangerous to discuss since people like providers more than insurance companies. The clinical people who work for big provider corporations are nice and leave a good impression, but the corporate provider chains make everyone miserable behind the scenes. But that is just my guess.

  99. 99
    germy says:

    courtroom footage:

    Outbursts in courtroom follow reading of guilty verdict for ex-Dallas police officer Amber Guyger in wrong apartment killing.
    The jury convicted Guyger of murder in the shooting of Botham Jean after mistaking his apartment for her own. https://t.co/CXrQ2VZGvN pic.twitter.com/MsTYgkOygn— ABC News (@ABC) October 1, 2019

  100. 100
    Kay says:

    @Yarrow:

    She’s steadily risen in the polls. I suppose there’s a counterfactual somewhere where her “handling” it better could have caused her to rise further or faster, but she’s not wrong if she thinks how she runs her campaign has gone well for her – it has.

  101. 101

    @germy: The judge’s decision to allow the “Castle Doctrine” was to prevent an avenue for appeal. If he didn’t and she was convicted, the defense would use his failure to include that.

  102. 102
    germy says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Republican talking points have a way of trickling leftward. Usually via the beltway media who drag them into the middle from the right.

  103. 103
    ThresherK says:

    Can someone point me to a good debunking of wingnuts saying “Zuckerberg is adulterating FB for left-wing causes and candidates”?

  104. 104
    PenandKey says:

    @ruemara: lol. I guess NA are no one. Look, be a fan but understand something. Her recent conversion to being Democrat over finances isn’t going over well for some POC, & LGBTQIA. And “some” NA ancestry in genetics isn’t being NA. nd “some” NA ancestry in genetics isn’t being NA. I also have to look intense askance at allowing herself to take credit as a minority faculty member. It’s a very bad look. I don’t like people who come late to party & then decide they should run it.

    You know, as someone who works with genetics on a daily basis I tend to take take issue with allies who make common ground with the GOP and push GOP talking points. The fact that Warren has NA ancestry in her genetic history to back up her family history of such makes this a non-story, and attacks against her for it are no better than going after Obama for having a Kenyan father. Factor it in during the primary if you disagree, sure, but after that? After that I’m sure I won’t be alone in seeing the continued use of that argument as no better than the BernieBros in ’16.

  105. 105
    germy says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Watching the footage, I see the judge is a woman. I’m glad she closed off that avenue for appeal, then.

  106. 106

    @Kay: She has a campaign that appeals to white liberals. It tickles all their fancies. I will vote for the eventual D nominee. Fingerwagger is going to lose. She is not my candidate, I am just totally unmoved by her. Amy Klobuchar has kinda grown on me. I like Kamala too. I am not as lefty on economics as you are, so while I support EW on financial regulation I disagree with her about trade and many other economic issues.
    As for the native American issue, she shouldn’t have taken the bait that T dangled. Otherwise I don’t particularly care about her ancestry.

  107. 107
    patrick II says:

    @germy:

    I don’t know much about this case, but from what little I know I have to ask — did he leave the door to his apartment unlocked? Did she have a key to his apartment? Didn’t she try her own key in the door and find it didn’t fit? How did she walk in that front door so easily?

  108. 108

    @germy: Police photographers are not the best photographers, just saying.

  109. 109
    JR says:

    @germy: Outbursts is overstating it. But, awesome. Some good news.

  110. 110
    A Ghost To Most says:

    I thought it was a bad idea in 2005, and nothing since has changed my mind. YMMV.

  111. 111
    Betty says:

    @rikyrah: While not making up for the family’s loss, they can at least have the reassurance that justice was done. I was very concerned that it would not be.

  112. 112
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @ruemara: Her recent conversion to being Democrat

    : To be fair, this was 23 years ago.

    I get you, though. She’s still not my favorite, but she’s good. “Bernie but competent and not unhinged” is something I’m okay with. I do acknowledge that some POC/LGBTQIA are going to have issues with her, but I’m not sure how to fix that other than to try and make some of the points others are making, in that the whole ‘NA thing’ was really overblown and didn’t really have much to do with her success, but that’s unconvincing to some and doesn’t answer their central concern.

  113. 113
    germy says:

    @patrick II: The apartment building owners had received complaints that some tenants had difficulty getting their door locks to work. I’m guessing he closed his door, assumed it was locked (when it wasn’t) and then she walked in.

    Of course, she cried on the stand and said he was coming at her, but the autopsy showed he was shot from above. He was crouching low on the ground.

  114. 114
    Elizabelle says:

    @ruemara:

    Look, be a fan but understand something. Her recent conversion to being Democrat over finances isn’t going over well for some POC, & LGBTQIA. And “some” NA ancestry in genetics isn’t being NA. I also have to look intense askance at allowing herself to take credit as a minority faculty member. It’s a very bad look. I don’t like people who come late to party & then decide they should run it.

    Elizabeth Warren has been a Democrat since 1996. Further, the only Republican she supported in the presidential elections before that was Gerald Ford. Is that not good enough for you?

    WRT “minority faculty member”: isn’t that as much Harvard’s fault? I never went down that whole rabbit hole, because it sounds like wingnut poison, but didn’t she check a box because she honestly believed she had Native American ancestry? It’s not like she was not qualified for her job and was purely a “quota” hire.

    And Elizabeth Warren has been very strong on consumer protection and economic issues for the middle class. She cannot be all things to all people. She does not need to be.

    I love Kamala Harris too, and would vote happily for either of our marvelous female frontrunners. But I don’t see the point of sandbagging an excellent candidate like Warren because she does not check off all your boxes. I would not sandbag either of these well-qualified and prepared candidates. Why are you so hot to do so?

    To quote the late and very great Jessye Norman: “Pigeon holes are only comfortable for pigeons.” She is so right.

    This wikipedia entry has a lot of links to follow. I don’t have time right now, but I very much believe people can change and grow.

    wiki: Elizabeth Warren: Political Affiliation

    Friends and colleagues of Warren’s from her high school days to the early part of her academic career in the 1980s have characterized her as a conservative with a belief in laissez-faire economics: Gary L. Francione, who had been a colleague of hers at the University of Pennsylvania, recalled in 2019 that when he heard her speak at the time she was becoming politically prominent he “almost fell off [his] chair… She’s definitely changed”.[24] Warren was registered as a Republican from 1991 to 1996.[1] She voted Republican for many years. “I was a Republican because I thought that those were the people who best supported markets”, she has said.[5] But she has also said that in the six presidential elections before 1996 she voted for the Republican nominee only once, in 1976, for Gerald Ford.[24] According to Warren, she began to vote Democratic in 1995 because she no longer believed that the Republicans were the party who best supported markets, but she has said she has voted for both parties because she believed that neither should dominate.[44] According to her, the Republican Party is no longer “principled in its conservative approach to economics and to markets” and is instead tilting the playing field in favor of big financial institutions and against “middle-class American families”.[45][46]

  115. 115
    Kay says:

    @jl:

    I can’t figure out WHY she didn’t adopt a general position and stick with it. I read a long article about her and she rejects any comparison to Obama- which is fine, I see that- but it seems to me she’s very much in his general lane and that would be a good ideological fit. I don’t know why she’d stay in the Left lane. I don’t know- she’s California. She could be a Jerry Brown Democrat. That’s a slot. That can be explained to people. I would have embraced the prosecutor thing. People are generally in favor of..lawfullness. There’s nothing to be ashamed about with that job.

  116. 116
    BC in Illinois says:

    @jl:

    If recent trends keep up, it will be a race between Warren and Biden. Then Sanders in an increasingly distant third. And Harris and Buttegieg trying to recover. I hope Harris does do better.

    This is pretty close to my take on things. This spring, I was pretty much in the Warren / Harris camp. Bought — and read — both of their campaign books. Sent donations in both directions (by which I have purchased constant e-mail traffic, especially as the end of each month approached). I also predicted, without evidence, that by the time the Missouri primary rolls around (after the early primaries and after Super Tuesday), Bernie would not be a factor.

    And Biden? I appreciate him, but he’s not my top choice. I have photos of him in my phone, from when he came to StL for Jason Kander (2016) and Claire McCaskill (2018). I always wanted for him to travel the country in 2020, speaking for Democrats on all levels. That said:

    Warren has continued to impress.
    I am not sure why Harris hasn’t done better.
    Biden has continued not to impress (me).
    These are the top three names for me.
    In that order.

    We shall see.

  117. 117
    zzyzx says:

    I’m not a huge Warren fan but the NA story needs to die in the primary fight. It’s just pushing Republican talking points against a front runner.

    I suspect that I’m going to stay neutral in the primary and wait for the general, other than maybe giving a token vote for Mayor Pete who I like if he’s still in by WA.

  118. 118
    Yarrow says:

    @germy: It was pulled back. You could see the blonde in the bun and other concurrent photos of her showed blonde hair.

  119. 119
    rikyrah says:

    @ruemara:

    folks keep on not hearing why people have issues with her.

  120. 120
    Nicole says:

    @rikyrah:

    She has been found GUILTY OF MURDER

    I was in the middle of my (much despised) every-other-day run, when my husband called to tell me that. It made the second half of the run much more bearable. Hallelujah. I still grieve so hard for his family and friends, because nothing will bring him back, but at least justice was served.

  121. 121
    Kay says:

    @jl:

    And she intended to embrace it! “For the people” is what prosecutors say. A direct reference. Defend it. It’s what she is and what she’s done and I think it’s something to be proud of.

  122. 122
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Yarrow:

    I’m worried about her in the GE.

  123. 123
    geg6 says:

    @ruemara:

    And “some” NA ancestry in genetics isn’t being NA. I also have to look intense askance at allowing herself to take credit as a minority faculty member. It’s a very bad look.

    Good job spouting right wing talking points! Guess they’re more effective than I thought.

    She never claimed to be fully NA. She never took credit as a minority faculty member, unless it was as a woman. She has worked with First People groups to gain their forgiveness and trust. From what I’ve seen so far, these groups welcomed her and seemed impressed with her. As for African Americans, they seem to have decided Joe “Busing+MBNA” Biden is their go to guy. I just hope neither group decides that their feels are so hurt if she wins, that they don’t care if the whole country, guilty and innocent, burns down.

    I don’t understand why anyone who is an actual Democrat (no Berniebros, please) would hate Elizabeth Warren the way so many in the online African American and leftier-than-thou community do. I cannot understand it and I find it pretty nuts.

  124. 124

    I was too late to the discussion about Ms. Trump’s thin modeling portfolio downstairs. While I don’t shoot much in the way of fashion, I have gone on several fashion shoots to learn. Models want any shots you’ve taken of them, no matter how bad you might think they are(poor exposure, eyes closed etc…). They want to be the judge of what shots work and might be useful as part of their portfolio. I may shoot several hundred shots of a model in a hour, they want ALL OF THEM. So not having an up to date portfolio would, well, odd.

  125. 125
    germy says:

    Amber Guyger faces between 5 and 99 years in prison. Court will resume at 1 p.m. Tuesday. She was charged with murdering Botham Jean then fired from the police force. #AmberGuygerTrial #BothamJean https://t.co/Dzqv81yXJW— Shomari Stone (@shomaristone) October 1, 2019

    I’m guessing it will be a lot closer to 5 years than 99, but at least the verdict was correct.

  126. 126
    patrick II says:

    @Kay:

    She keeps getting hit from the left on sending people to jail. She was a prosecutor, and while she is allowed some descretion, a prosecutor is a person who enforces the law, not one who writes them. Own it.

  127. 127
    Yarrow says:

    @zhena gogolia: Me too. I think Harris would be stronger but she hasn’t run as good a campaign.

  128. 128
    PenandKey says:

    You know, I’m not really one to talk since I maybe comment once or twice a week and haven’t used this nym beyond that last few months, but is the Conster new, by chance? I don’t recognize that name among the current roster of regulars, though that could easily be my lack of coffee today. It seems odd that a thread derail about the freaking NA ancestry thing would start up on a thread about Facebook trying to torpedo a Warren candidacy.

  129. 129
    Another Scott says:

    @OGLiberal: It’s worse than nefarious, of course. Wired (from March):

    Cambridge Analytica had purchased Facebook data on tens of millions of Americans without their knowledge to build a “psychological warfare tool,” which it unleashed on US voters to help elect Donald Trump as president. Just before the news broke, Facebook banned Wylie, Cambridge Analytica, its parent company SCL, and Aleksandr Kogan, the researcher who collected the data, from the platform. But those moves came years too late and couldn’t stem the outrage of users, lawmakers, privacy advocates, and media pundits. Immediately, Facebook’s stock price fell and boycotts began. Zuckerberg was called to testify before Congress, and a year of contentious international debates about the privacy rights of consumers online commenced. On Friday, Kogan filed a defamation lawsuit against Facebook.

    Wylie’s words caught fire, even though much of what he said was already a matter of public record. In 2013, two University of Cambridge researchers published a paper explaining how they could predict people’s personalities and other sensitive details from their freely accessible Facebook likes. These predictions, the researchers warned, could “pose a threat to an individual’s well-being, freedom, or even life.” Cambridge Analytica’s predictions were based largely on this research. Two years later, in 2015, a Guardian writer named Harry Davies reported that Cambridge Analytica had collected data on millions of American Facebook users without their permission, and used their likes to create personality profiles for the 2016 US election. However, in the heat of the primaries, with so many polls, news stories, and tweets to dissect, most of America paid no attention.

    The difference was when Wylie told this story in 2018, people knew how it ended—with the election of Donald J. Trump.

    FB has far too much data on users and on people who don’t even use FB. They’re basically an independent intelligence service that is accountable to no-one, they’ve abused their power, and have put western democracies (and other governments) in peril.

    And it’s only going to get worse if we don’t do something about it.

    Grrr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  130. 130
    Jeffro says:

    @germy: great question. I think the answer is, “more than the other guy”

    @Amir Khalid: yup. See also George Carlin.

  131. 131
    Aleta says:

    An arrest warrant for Guyger said she performed first aid on Jean, but evidence presented during the trial has not shown that to be the case.

    Guyger was outside Jean’s apartment when the first officers arrived, body-camera footage showed. There was no blood found on Guyger’s uniform, which was collected after the shooting.

    Tesas Trib

  132. 132
    jl says:

    @Elizabelle: Everything in every Democratic candidate’s past is going to be examined and twenty different ways to game it will be run up by the flagpole by GOP and Trumpsters until they find the wedgie that will work the best. I’m not going to worry about it other than in what is the best way to respond and call it out as BS. That includes the bogus claim that Warren ‘claimed’ to be NA, which she did not do. That includes ‘Kamala is a cop’ or she ‘not authentically black’ BS.

    Look at Obama, The GOP tried a dozen attack lines, many of which contradicted each other. I remember when the main GOP attack was that Obama was an elitist like Kerry. Remember the line that only sissy men body surf? I guess the visual parallel with Kerry windsurfing was just too tempting. Then Obama ordered the wrong kind of mustard. And Obama wasn’t ‘authentically black.’ The most racist anti-black attack worked best with the GOP base, which seems obvious in retrospect, now that we have a much better understanding of the driving motive of most of the GOP base.

    I’m not going to worry about that stuff. The GOP and Trumpsters will find some BS against anyone. I won’t like it if any Democratic candidate uses bogus issues that are just BS GOP wedgies.

  133. 133
    germy says:

    As CNN reports, Botham Jean’s mother threw her arms up in the air when the guilty verdict was delivered. Another woman shouted in praise before she was silenced by the bailiff.

    The celebrations recommenced once Judge Tammy Kemp dismissed the room, with cheering, clapping, and chants of “Guilty! Guilty!” and “black lives matter” bursting from the hallway.

    via the root:
    https://www.theroot.com/texas-jury-finds-amber-guyger-guilty-of-murder-1838667126

  134. 134
    Elizabelle says:

    @rikyrah: If you put up a good link to a well-reasoned article, or two or three, and not just some person with a twitter account who could be anybody, I will look.

    I have seen a lot of character assassination.

    It’s rather perfect that we are discussing Facebook’s perfidies, and I think that is where a lot of the bad information people trade in comes from.

    I would bet the FB campaign against Kamala Harris is a lot of what is keeping her polling low. Because she’s a formidable candidate. I do not understand why she’s not gaining more traction, and think it’s because Biden and Bernie and Pete are sucking the air out of the room. Also, it is early for your rank and file voter. Although it’s when people’s perceptions are formed.

  135. 135
    Betty Cracker says:

    @rikyrah: Maybe folks hear you just fine but simply disagree? “Opinions differ” — on a blog, no less! ;-)

  136. 136
    Elizabelle says:

    @PenandKey: Hi there, and welcome. The Conster has been around a long while, and usually has better comments than the one about EW and the NA imbroglio.

  137. 137
    geg6 says:

    @rikyrah:

    So explain it to me without using any tropes taken from FOX News. Because I have yet to see any explanations that don’t loop right on back to that.

  138. 138
    patrick II says:

    @Aleta:
    From Wiki:

    loss aversion refers to people’s tendency to prefer avoiding losses to acquiring equivalent gains: it is better to not lose $5 than to find $5. The principle is very prominent in the domain of economics. What distinguishes loss aversion from risk aversion is that the utility of a monetary payoff depends on what was previously experienced or was expected to happen. Some studies have suggested that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains.[1] Loss aversion was first identified by Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman.[2]

    We shouldn’t have let people get this rich and powerful in the first place. Taking it away is going to be a real problem.

  139. 139
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @PenandKey: No, the Conster has commented here for years.

  140. 140
    HumboldtBlue says:

    @patrick II:

    The door was cracked open when she stuck her key in the lock and it didn’t work but the door then opened and she walked in a murdered a man sitting on his couch eating ice cream.

  141. 141
    sdhays says:

    Has anyone used Line. The last time I was in Taiwan, my friend mentioned that it’s very popular there now. I think it’s Japan-based. I installed it, but it seemed pretty invasive (like Facebook, which is banned from my phone). I don’t think it has any market penetration here.

  142. 142
    Fair Economist says:

    @ruemara: Warren is hardly “late to the party”. She has been a crusader for fair financing and an opponent of the big exploitative banks for decades. She was one of the lead opponents of the bankruptcy deform and one of the first people to warn about the housing bubble. A lot of people would still have their houses had she been President in the mid-oughts.

  143. 143
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @rikyrah: Quite shocking (given how few cops are held responsible for similar murders) but I guess an argument that you can walk into someone else’s home and shoot them is a bridge too far.

  144. 144
    PenandKey says:

    Ah, my bad then. The last few days have made me a bit paranoid. I’ll have to defer to all you on that. And while the “welcome” is appreciated I’ve been here on and off for years so I’ll probably get another one if I ever leave for a while and forget my user name again :) I figure the only one who knows all my various historic names at this point is John since he could search by email, but that’s about it.

  145. 145
    zzyzx says:

    @geg6:

    Fear mainly. If the Trump issues are less theoretical to your day to day life, the goal is to figure out who is the person most likely to stop it, rather than go for a perceived riskier candidate.

    So much of the argument for the Warren/Sanders wing has the concept that there’s really a strong core of American progressivism that would easily win elections if it were only embraced. I, personally, think that that’s wishful thinking and it scares me as an electoral strategy.

  146. 146
    Nicole says:

    And… I should probably rethink my rage at the judge for introducing the Castle Doctrine in the instructions to the jury, because it’s been pointed out that by bringing that up now, the judge made it harder for Guyger’s team to make a case for an appeal (when it comes to cops, dead victims who are black, and the legal system, I knee-jerk assume the worst of everyone involved in the legal case). In this situation, the judge may actually have been making a calculated play to make sure the verdict stuck.

  147. 147
    patrick II says:

    @ruemara:

    I have a family story that somewhere years ago I had a Native-American ancestor. I have mentioned the possibility on occasion with some unwarranted and wishful pride. Warren had much more reason to believe it than I did, including having her future in-laws not approving of her marriage because of the possibility. There are a lot of things I worry about in a candidate, like caging children, destroying alliances, and general criminality. A little over-optimistic pride on possible ancestry is not one of them.

  148. 148
    Kay says:

    @patrick II:

    I really like her so I have all these IDEAS about her campaign :)

    Embrace the prosecutor! Frankly, centrist Democrats will fucking love it. I think she should run as a progressive Californian – forward looking, pro-growth, all that jazz. She’d be so much better at than Biden who is to me almost wholly nostalgiac, which I kind of loathe because I think Americans do too much of it and it’s self indulgent. I don’t want to talk about the mythical good old days anymore. I don’t believe him.

  149. 149
    zhena gogolia says:

    @zzyzx:

    RIGHT.

    There’s a story abroad in the land that the economy is doing better than it ever did under any other president (I just heard it today). The Warren story plays well with people like us, but we’re not enough to win the GE.

  150. 150
    Another Scott says:

    @Elizabelle: I only picked up bits and pieces of the story and the trial, but this whole episode seems to be a good reason to take guns away from beat cops. Reserve them for SWAT or something. But too many people are dying because too many beat cops mess up. Things like net guns and other non-lethal ways of disabling people (and no, not Tasers) should be the norm.

    It would be nice if our candidates would get in front of issues like this.

    Grrr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  151. 151
    germy says:

    @HumboldtBlue:
    The most disgusting thing was when police then ransacked his apartment in search of… something… anything… and then triumphantly announced they’d found a small bag of marijuana.

    They still have the mindset that casual, occasional cannabis use automatically discredits someone as a “dope fiend” (and then the police go home and consume their usual six-pack of coors)

  152. 152
    Fair Economist says:

    @ThresherK: I wouldn’t try to debunk some wingnut saying Facebook is pro-lefty. Tell them they are right and they’d better quit Facebook before Zuckerberg convinces them to contaminate their precious bodily fluids.

  153. 153
    the Conster says:

    @ruemara:

    Exactly where I am with Elizabeth and her appropriating another culture, the Dem party, and others’ ideas. Plus, she’s way too white lefty/economic anxiety/Bernie adjacent for my taste. Not that I wouldn’t love to see her actually implement any of *her* policies, I just don’t see this as being a policy election – not with the entire GOP being traitors – especially not policies that focus on income inequality, which as we know, white people are responsible for immiserating themselves in exchange for white supremacy.

  154. 154
    Mandalay says:

    @ruemara:

    Her recent conversion to being Democrat over finances…

    Oh FFS, she switched to the Democratic Party in 1996. That’s not “recent”.

  155. 155
    NotMax says:

    @Elizabelle

    If you put up a good link to a well-reasoned article, or two or three, and not just some person with a twitter account who could be anybody, I will look.

    Thank you. Thank You. THANK YOU. Impossible to agree more. The prevalence of Twitter as a crutch, especially ‘who the hell is this (maybe a) person and why should anyone pay the least attention to them’ tweets is eminently distasteful. Scrollbar gets an Olympic level workout moving past them.

  156. 156
    the Conster says:

    @Mandalay:

    It was after two terms of Reagan and one of Bush. If she didn’t hear all the dog whistling union busting white populism going on then, then I don’t know what else to say.

    I’ll vote for her in the GE WITHOUT QUESTION, but she’ll not get my enthusiastic support.

  157. 157
    Kay says:

    Secretary Pompeo
    @SecPompeo
    · 2h
    I’m concerned with aspects of the Committee’s request that can be understood only as an attempt to intimidate, bully, & treat improperly the distinguished professionals of the Department of State, including several career FSOs.

    Says the ridiculous hack who has hauled in 130 people for interrogations on behalf of his Lord and Master.

    The low quality Trump hires no longer recognize elected Democrats as legitimate actors. They’re refusing to recognize the Constitution.

    Out. Of. Control.

  158. 158
    Miss Bianca says:

    @ruemara: So, someone has to become a Democrat for “the right reasons”, now, or it’s not legit? Good to know. :/

    Meantime, for this old honky, I find the fact that Warren appears to be the only one addressing the simple economic fact that Social Security payments have to go up, and that they should be going up for everyone regardless of how much you may or may not have paid into the system, to be a compelling argument for me to pay attention to her. Unlike the vaunted, mythical WWC dude beloved of the punditocracy, I actually *am* experiencing economic anxiety, and I don’t exactly find the fact that my family history suggests I may well be able to drop dead in harness, as opposed to being sidelined by extreme old age and/or dementia, to be comforting.

    Warren is onto something. As for who gives other Democratic constituencies the apparently necessary tingle up the leg before they can be arsed to go all in on a candidate, let them prevail with votes in the primary if they can, and if they can’t…if they’re going to let, “but she doesn’t speak to MEEEEE” be an excuse for not voting Team Democrat, they can all hug themselves in the knowledge that people like me will be swirling the societal drain shoulder to shoulder with them. For what that will be worth.

  159. 159
    guachi says:

    The basic argument I’ve seen on the internet against Warren is that her appeal is more towards white educated liberals. Somehow this is supposed to be a bad thing.

  160. 160

    @germy: When I re-read my comment, I should have said “he or she” when referring to the judge, my mistake.

  161. 161
    Kay says:

    Karen Myatt
    @karenamyatt
    ·
    1h
    Replying to
    @djrothkopf
    @jordainc
    and
    @lrozen
    I’m old enough to remember when Susan Mc Dougall went to jail for 18 months for refusing to cooperate with the Clinton Impeachment. She refused to testify. Did that Congress have magic powers that are lacking now?

    That’s true. Anyone know why the low quality Trump hires can’t be subjected to laws like everyone else? Besides the fact that their cult leader is President? Why are we all paying for these lavish junkets to Italy if none of them show up for work?

  162. 162
    patrick II says:

    @Kay:

    I like her too. Warren and Harris have been my top choices from the beginning. I am not sure why she isn’t doing better, although Biden and Bernie had voter inertia from previous campaigns going in and Warren has been spectacular. So she had to separate herself from the others. Mayor Pete has made that difficult because he articulates a message of Democratic integrity so well. Frankly, I haven’t heard a theme from Harris (I have a plan for that, I’m a socialist, I’m the candidate who can beat Trump) that ties her candidacy together. I’m not sure if that’s her fault or lack of coverage in the media.
    I like your ideas.

  163. 163
    Miss Bianca says:

    @jl:

    I hope Harris does do better.

    Honestly, so do I, but my Magic 8-ball is saying “doubtful” at this point. She might surprise me. She may be gambling on being able to pull out a big win in SC and other Southern primaries, which would certainly make her competitive and might give her the win. We’ll see.

  164. 164
    Another Scott says:

    @ruemara: All of our candidates have issues. I thought Hillary was crazy to talk about a “No Fly Zone” in Syria. I have an AA friend who says he will absolutely not consider Harris – “I know her type…”

    It’s still very early. The Iowa caucus is February 3 – 125 days away.

    I’m trying to not paint myself into a corner.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  165. 165
    Jeffro says:

    @Kay: “I don’t see any point in telling my side of my lawful actions in defense of a completely innocent president*, much less following the law if/when I am issued a subpoena, so nyah nyah Dems!”

    I really did not see “IOKIYAR” as extending to the ability to pick and choose which, if any, subpoenas one responds to. How intriguing! Just did not see that coming.

  166. 166
    rikyrah says:

    🤔🤔🤔

    Marcus H. Johnson (@marcushjohnson) Tweeted:
    I think the truth is that the progressive left movement in America as currently constituted is not anything close to a working class movement. Its a discontent movement of college educated up/middle class whites who thought they’d be wealthier than their parents. Big difference https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1179013302728482816?s=17

  167. 167
    Gvg says:

    @rikyrah: I hear you, but it looks like you aren’t going to get your preferred choice this time around. Warren is doing better with the polls right now. I can see why Biden appeals to minorities who want a sure thing and can tell you my lily white old liberal parents like him too, but well you know the reservations we all have here. Warren seems like she is better of the likely looking choices now. I really preferred Obama then Hillary so I had 3 in a row where I got my first choice. Looks like I am not going to be as lucky this go round.
    I have never gotten why a lot of people picked a lot of candidates. Trump should have been blown out in the primary if people thought like I do. I have to accept that I just don’t get how the general population is going to “think”. I don’t know why Warren is doing better than Harris.
    Warren does get a lot of things. I don’t think she is as solid on foreign policy as I would prefer. A lot will depend on who she listens too. Her cabinet. We should try and subs that out. Biden could probably get a good one too actually. Sanders, not so much. He doesn’t get along with others enough which is one reason I was always against the not really a democrat guy.
    AG is going to be a really significant pick in telling us how good any of these people would be after Trump.

  168. 168
    Kay says:

    Andrea Mitchell
    @mitchellreports
    I tried to ask
    @SecPompeo
    today why he is targeting veteran diplomats for routine emails when they had nothing to do with that private server.
    He turned his back and walked away.

    Absolute contempt for anyone who isn’t in the cult. Are we paying this hack to obstruct and not answer questions?

  169. 169
    Amir Khalid says:

    @PenandKey:
    TThe Conster is not among the most frequent commenters, but is also not new. I have seen the nym here for years.

  170. 170
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Kay:

    This is so scary.

  171. 171
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: Impeach the motherfucker. Down with Pompeo, and Barr.

    They may be acting like this because they know they are going down.

  172. 172
    Miss Bianca says:

    @rikyrah: No, folks *here* keep wondering who’s better, and why, on issues that matter to POC and sex/gender minorities. We keep hearing sniping about Warren and zip. zilch.nada. about who’s BETTER than Warren and WHY we should be thinking so, too.

  173. 173
    jl says:

    @Gvg: I think Warren and Harris will do best one on one against Trump during the general campaign. General election polls don’t mean much this far out, except they do show either is competitive with Trump. So I’ve been contributing to them. I’ve been saying that I’m supporting Warren the most, since I’ve given her more money.

    I sent Inslee a few dollars to try to keep him in one or two more debates, even though I am not a fan of one issue candidates. But, I think climate change is an extremely important issue, and he had very good policy proposals and could present a good case. And in other ways, I thought Inslee was by far the best of the less than stellar cast of relatively obscure white dudes running.

    I’m open minded and will support any Democratic nominee. Warren does have some significant weaknesses in her campaign, as would any mortal human. So far, she has run such a good campaign, he weaknesses haven’t hurt her yet. I have to trust Warren knows what she is doing, and hope Harris recovers from her recent fall. She should be doing better than Buttegieg, IMHO.

  174. 174
    Fair Economist says:

    @zzyzx: There is a lot of support for Warren’s opposition to predatory lending. A *lot*.

  175. 175
    patrick II says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Or because they have no intention of going down regardless of laws and election results. 2020 will be an interesting time. One of the reasons, as I mentioned to Kay earlier, I like Kamala. We could use a tough-minded prosecutor as a candidate.

  176. 176
    Elizabelle says:

    @Miss Bianca: Thank you. I am tired of the twitter shitposting.

    I don’t trust anything I see on FB or twitter, unless the writer/publication is known to me as credible. Any fucker with an internet account can say anything they want on the cyber. I want to know who I am dealing with.

    Further, can people not see this is all a wedge to drive Democrats apart? Because it is. You can see it happening right here.

  177. 177
    Kay says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    I admit Barr rattles me. A rogue prosecutor is a bad thing. It isn’t just his affirmative actions- going after political enemies. It’s his protective actions. Not pursuing bad guys if the bad guys are in the cult. We really need a lawyer, and we don’t have one.

  178. 178
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Kay: McDougal didn’t go to jail for refusing to cooperate with the impeachment. She refused to cooperate with the Starr Grand Jury.

  179. 179
    Elizabelle says:

    @patrick II: I’m a Warren/Harris girl. Or, could be Harris/Warren.

    Or, Kamala Harris for AG. Jebus, will she have a lot to clean up in the wake of Bastard Bill Barr. He deserves prison, and disbarment, and I think he faces good odds of at least one, if not both.

  180. 180
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Amir Khalid: Yup, Conster is one of those who’s been commenting less since The Great Debacle, but she is most definetinly not a troll. I like Warren, and as with HRC and Al Gore, I just don’t get some of the opposition she inspires, but the hand-waving way of (if not outright bullying against) any fears or hesitations people have about candidates or policies as “right wing propaganda” is not a good strategy for the general election

  181. 181
    Groucho48 says:

    Bernie STILL isn’t a Democrat. Just sayin’…

  182. 182
    Elizabelle says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Just about everything I am seeing is character assassination.

    And, as is the point of this very blogpost, we have to know WHY we have the perceptions and judgments we do. Because watch out for FB and twitter and MSM to implant information that is not accurate, fair, or real.

  183. 183
    --bd says:

    @Kay: When you’ve lost Mrs. Greenspan…

  184. 184
    Elizabelle says:

    This makes me happy. Blurb on the WaPost website “front page.”

    Jimmy Carter once thought he was nearing death. The longest-living former U.S. president just turned 95.

    Happy 95th, and onward to 100. Oh, and please, please, please monitor our elections.

    On that note, I think Democrats should push for international monitoring of US elections. Do you think 2016 was on the level? I do not. Never have.

  185. 185
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Kay:

    HE IS THE WORST. I never thought I’d see the day when I’d be nostalgic for Jeff Sessions.

  186. 186
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I am not on Facebook at all. I am not on Twitter either, although I read selected twitter feeds of people with some expertise. My misgivings about Warren have nothing to do with Facebook. They partly have to do with my own reaction to her. I have a better feeling about Harris (and Biden and Buttigieg, for that matter) — especially when it comes to going up against Trump and trying to persuade non-lefty voters.

  187. 187
    Kay says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    Thanks. That makes me feel better. It’s just so hard because regular people have to submit to legal process all over this country, thousands of times a day and these people just blithely blow it off and that enrages me. No one WANTS to go! They go because they’re ordered to go and 99% of them do so without all this fucking WHINING.

    It’s not fair. It either applies to everyone or no one.

  188. 188
    Kay says:

    Michael Crowley
    @michaelcrowley
    ·45m
    Gorka hits the cafes of Rome. Couldn’t make this up. Watch the video if you’re not blocked. (If you are, use a browser where you’re not signed into Twitter):

    Are we paying for this? We now have to fund cult member trips to foreign countries? Anyone know why the entire Trump Administration (both official and free lance) seems to be enjoying jetting back and forth to Italy? Other than to avoid testifying, I mean.

  189. 189
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Kay: The fact the someone is not an economic populist does not automatically make them a political centrist or moderate. Stop trying to aim Harris at a moderate “lane.” She has every right to run on her beliefs and values. If those put her left of center in the party as a whole, then that is where she should run. Her beliefs, her choice.

  190. 190
    patroclus says:

    I thought this was a Dump on Facebook thread – not a Dump on Warren thread. I disagree with Warren’s position on trade – opposing TPP was a terrible mistake – but I think the Trump-inspired attack on her Native-American ancestry is ridiculous. And I don’t favor abolishing private health insurance. But, uh, my disagreements with her pale in comparison to the constitution-destroying lying Republicans who oppose the rule of law. And I also think her rhetoric on trade (with which I disagree) actually will play better in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. So if she’s the nominee, I will not hesitate to vote for her (enthusiastically). Biden’s my first choice, but every time he opens his mouth, that wanes a bit.

    Oh, and Facebook is evil.

  191. 191
    Steeplejack says:

    @PenandKey:

    [. . .] is the Conster new, by chance?

    Search on the Google:

    site:balloon-juice.com conster

    Second hit is from 2013.

    At this point, “Hello, new person on Balloon Juice” should rank right up there with “I’m not a racist, but . . .” Just respond to the argument—or not—and let it go.

  192. 192
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    And to the original subject, I practically live on FB these days.

    It’s the platform of choice for the genetic genealogy community. I spend a lot of time in the various support groups for the software that has been developed or is under development within the community.

  193. 193
    patrick II says:

    @Kay:
    Bill Barr asked Trump for introduction to leaders in Italy, Australia and Ukraine so he could investigate Mueller probe: report

    Rachel had a great segment on this last night. Essentially the addtional sanctions imposed on Russia in 2016 were due to Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. Putin, and therefore Trump’s, top priority is to remove sanctions which are really hurting russian economy. To that end Barr is running around the world trying to get foreign intelligence services to undercut American intelligence services conclusion that Russia interfered in our election.

    Actually, pretty fucking insane for a president and his attorney general (and his secretary of state).

  194. 194
    Elizabelle says:

    @patroclus: The Conster derailed it.

    And fuck Mark Zuckerberg.

  195. 195
  196. 196
    rikyrah says:

    Marcus H. Johnson (@marcushjohnson) Tweeted:
    Polls do matter, and it is clear Bernie has fallen at Warren’s expense. Warren is now clearly 2nd behind Biden. Both Warren and Bernie still have major unanswered questions about their performance in the south and with Black voters. https://t.co/KT9Ht2exR8 https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1179059499069591553?s=17

  197. 197
    rikyrah says:

    Marcus H. Johnson (@marcushjohnson) Tweeted:
    An article that I’d like to see in a major publication-the progressive left movement has defined itself as the true champions of the marginalized. Why have their most prominent candidates had so much trouble attracting Black voters-the most marginalized demo in America?
    https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/1179011262111522816?s=17

  198. 198
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @patroclus: I thought this was a Dump on Facebook thread – not a Dump on Warren thread.

    An off-topic thread at Balloon Juice! Well I never!

    did you go through and count how many comments critiqued Warren vs those that critiqued Facebook?

  199. 199
    patroclus says:

    One more thing. In a normal world, I would vote FOR Trump’s deal with Mexico and Canada. In the midst of his awful tariffs and trade wars, he actually got a free trade deal done. But if I were in Congress, I would tell his administration that I would vote for it if and only if he started complying with Congressional subpoenas and oversight. No cooperation – no positive patroclus vote. I’d go all Mitch McConnell on him.

  200. 200
    Elizabelle says:

    @rikyrah: Yeah, I’d like to see that article too, Marcus. So: maybe it does not exist because it’s not proveable?

    Further, it is ridiculous to assume everyone who might vote Democratic is a progressive leftist. Not hardly. So why is that what so many people hang their arguments on?

  201. 201
    different-church-lady says:

    @MisterForkbeard: That’s 21 years longer than Bernie was a Democrat.

  202. 202
    cain says:

    @the Conster:

    Exactly where I am with Elizabeth and her appropriating another culture, the Dem party, and others’ ideas. Plus, she’s way too white lefty/economic anxiety/Bernie adjacent for my taste. Not that I wouldn’t love to see her actually implement any of *her* policies, I just don’t see this as being a policy election – not with the entire GOP being traitors – especially not policies that focus on income inequality, which as we know, white people are responsible for immiserating themselves in exchange for white supremacy.

    I’m sorry, but this whole “appropriating culture” is just bullshit. Every culture is based on other cultures whether through conquest, integration, or some other circumstance. I appropriate culture all the time and create something new. Just the other day, I took a family recipe and made it more similar to Vietnamese pho.

    Culture is not static, and it changes constantly. There is no culture to defend. Only right wing assholes want culture to be static because they can’t handle the change. That’s why we have bullshit fundamentalism. Off my soapbox now.

  203. 203
    Tata says:

    It’s been awhile, but it’s startling to see this community turn on Black women again. Also: go read what AA and NA women are saying. Twitter, Facebook, wherever. Take your pick, but go do your own reading. They’re under no obligation to educate you.

  204. 204
    different-church-lady says:

    True leftists trying to ratfuck Democrats is (a distant) second only to Trumpists trying to ratfuck Democrats.

  205. 205
    Jay says:

    @Another Scott:

    And while the Book of Faces claims that it’s too expensive or to difficult to police content,

    Several of the sites most recently exposed by researchers and eventually taken down by the Book of Faces,

    Simply recycled tons of IRA and Wingnut propaganda from 2016.

    All the Book of Faces would have to do is build a simple algorythm that compared new image content to previously banned image content.

    It would work on the Nazi stuff too.

  206. 206
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @rikyrah: I get you. The only thing I’ve got is that the ‘recent conversion’ thing doesn’t sound right to me and the NA stuff sounds overblown. But I can also see why a white guy like me would have a very different view of Warren’s situation than a minority would.

    Again, thanks for sticking around – it’s a really valuable insight.

    @patrick II: Kamala is still my first choice, partially for this reason. I do worry about her in the general, though – as a black woman, she’s vulnerable to a LOT of smear campaigns on that alone. Her (totally defensible) relationship with Willie Brown is also causing a lot more sexism and so on. I honestly don’t know how she overcomes all that – read the comments on anything her campaign posts on facebook and something like 50% of the top-level comments are the kind of sexist or racist bullshit that we can’t really counter. Because her opponents don’t see sexism and racism as a bad thing.

  207. 207
    Steeplejack says:

    @Kay:

    Agreed on Pompeo’s contempt, but I have to call bullshit on Andrea Mitchell for this. I saw the clip on MSNBC last night (sound starts at 0:14 for me), portrayed as some big “speaking truth to power” moment. But Pompeo had already turned to go and is in the other room by the time Mitchell finishes her question. She does this a lot—ask some “dynamite” question to a departing principal, timed just well enough to give her some “tough cred” and get her clicks. Bleah.

  208. 208
    ruemara says:

    @Elizabelle: I don’t care. I really don’t care. I’m not even supporting Kamala so I don’t see how she relates to what I said.

    @cain: You would be wrong. Because you seem to think that influence = appropriation. You’re talking about someone who used a minority identity when she shouldn’t have and still cannot say, I was wrong and apologize. This is why I said what I said.

    You’re doubling down and trying to prove me wrong, when you should listen to the warning and learn how to fix the outreach. Christ, no wonder the GOP run nearly everything. Too smart to learn is a problem.

  209. 209
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Elizabelle: I’ve been having a similar argument – at least, similar in the “gaaahhh” factor – with my white progressive lefty friends who are dumping on John Hickenlooper running for Senate, and bemoaning the (fake news) fact that all Democrats at a state level seem to be throwing themselves behind them. It’s a). false; and b). maddening because I don’t see them plumping for *why* their preferred candidate is better than Hick: it’s just all, “He’s bad on fracking and therefore just BAD and I don’t like him or trust him!” Tough luck, buttercups. He’s still going to be about a thousand times better than the Republican CURRENTLY SQUATTING IN THE SENATE.

    Do the work of convincing me that your candidate is better than the one currently leading the polls, rather than whining about how unjust it is that s/he/they aren’t doing better. Better yet, let your candidate do the work.

  210. 210
    PenandKey says:

    @Steeplejack: Noted, and as someone who should be familiar with search algorithms and coding you’d think I would have figured that trick out. I’ll just slink off and wash the egg off my face now.

  211. 211
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jay: The problem with Facebook is they want all information to flow through their gates, but absolutely none of the respnsibilities that are incumbent to gatekeepers.

  212. 212
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Kay: The thing that really bugs me about this is that they’re not even trying to pretend to obey the law.

    The law is: You get subpoenaed, you show up. If you don’t want to answer a question or believe you can’t, you tell them that you have a counter-claim like executive privilege, attorney/client, 5th amendment protections, etc.

    Their behavior: “I don’t wanna. You’re being mean. Not only am I not showing up, I’m ordering my people to not show up either”.

    It’s another case where impeachment and contempt of congress is going to be more and more important.

  213. 213
    Elizabelle says:

    @Steeplejack: LOL. Mrs. Greenspan again.

  214. 214
    patrick II says:

    @the Conster:

    she’s way too white

    Intolerance in the name of tolerance. An admirable quality.

  215. 215
    Steeplejack says:

    @Kay:

    Gorka’s video:

    Why is the Left mad that I’m in Rome? Looks like Team Obama and their drones are worried. Good. https://t.co/WIKibrkv1f pic.twitter.com/8jR3bl6lle

    — Sebastian Gorka DrG (@SebGorka) October 1, 2019

  216. 216
    Elizabelle says:

    @Tata: That you, Brickley?

  217. 217
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Tata:

    All the reading I’ve done so far suggests that Joe Biden is the most popular Democratic candidate among African-Americans right now. Is it for any more substantial reason than his loyalty to Obama? I don’t know. Does it need to be, for my satisfaction? No. Does that mean *I* am going to vote for Joe Biden? No. Does that mean I am going to bitch about Joe Biden’s faults and tell POC all the reasons why I don’t plan to vote for him? Also no.

    Maybe Warren needs to do a better job convincing non-white, non-het folks that she’s got their interests at heart. I am willing to take that consideration seriously, because I like her as a candidate and I would like to see her succeed. OTOH, maybe Warren is also getting tarred with the “she’s a woman, she must endlessly apologize for the shit that personally offends me, but whatever she says will never be enough” brush that HRC got tarred with. I don’t know.

  218. 218
    Jay says:

    @Kay:

    Remember the Italian Nazis who were on track to become the Government, until they got busted arranging a gas smuggling scheme with Putin’s Chef and kicked out of Government?

    Maybe Gorka and Barr are checking to see if those guys know where Hillary’s private server.

  219. 219
    zzyzx says:

    @rikyrah:

    I have a theory. There’s a frequent union between economic progressives and nationalists; my guess as to why it forms is because people are fine helping out people who look like me but THOSE people are obviously scamming the system. Even in the US, we’ve had one era of a progressive Senate and it happened by joining forces with southern racists. I can understand feeling like these feel good programs will lead to throwing them under the bus.

  220. 220
    Kathleen says:

    @Amir Khalid: ‘Muraca!

  221. 221
    sgrAstar says:

    @Betty: good to see you here, Betty. We are heartsick over the loss of that lovely young man. It’s a bit comforting to see that the jury returned a guilty verdict almost immediately. As a country, we just have to do better.

  222. 222
    patrick II says:

    @ruemara:

    You’re talking about someone who used a minority identity when she shouldn’t have and still cannot say, I was wrong and apologize.

    Elizabeth Warren Apologizes at Native American Forum: ‘I Have Listened and I Have Learned’

  223. 223
    WhatsMyNym says:

    @the Conster: I thought Warren was of mixed background when I first saw pics of her years ago and I still do. I just didn’t know about the possible native American connection back then.
    For the record I’m a very pale western European, though I tan well.

  224. 224
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Unless the subject is guns!

  225. 225
    Steeplejack says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    I’m so dreadfully behind on everything Balloon Juice that I must confess I don’t get this.

  226. 226
    Elizabelle says:

    @patrick II: Thank you.

  227. 227
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Elizabelle:

    No, this is a commenter I’ve seen many times before. Not lately, to be sure, but it certainly is not Brickley.

  228. 228
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Whenever there’s a gun thread all sorts of new nyms appear magically.

  229. 229
  230. 230
    Steeplejack says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Oh, yeah, got it.

  231. 231
    geg6 says:

    @Tata:

    I don’t do much FB and I have never even looked at Twitter. I am asking for someone making some sort of reasoned argument for why African American women seem to hate EW. Not criticizing their choice of another candidate if that’s their thing, but the commenters here who are AA women all seem to have the same antipathy toward her and still won’t articulate any reason for other than the same tropes that Trump uses against her. I want a reason that isn’t bullshit. I won’t accept that NA women do because I haven’t seen anything of the sort from the people I know and interact with in that demographic and I haven’t seen anything in the press backing that up.

    I’m honestly trying to wrap my mind around this because nobody currently running would be better for AA women or NA women or WWC than Warren. No one. The reason Harris isn’t doing better is because she is running a not-very-good campaign and she is pretty incoherent on too many issues. I honestly have no idea what she actually stands for. None at all. After three debates, I still don’t know why she’s running.

  232. 232
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @zzyzx: Almost every time I see people here calling for populism (economic or otherwise), I bring up my worries that populism often has a dark side of nativism, anti-intellectualism, and other ugliness. I think a good number of people think that we can thread the needle and get the economic results they want without the other policies. I remain skeptical.

  233. 233
    geg6 says:

    @ruemara:

    You’re talking about someone who used a minority identity when she shouldn’t have and still cannot say, I was wrong and apologize.

    This is patently false. A total smear. She has apologized multiple times.

  234. 234
    Kathleen says:

    @zzyzx: Very insightful. I have not looked at it from that perspective. Thank you.

  235. 235
    Kathleen says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Excellent point.

  236. 236
    gwangung says:

    @geg6: I’m gonna say that a few of my Native acquaintances are annoyed with her using the trappings that conservative white people used to game the system; many have forgiven her, some have not.

    Others have had a problem with her silence on the pipeline invasion of native land, and far more find that problematic.

    Others have found her history the same as basically a clueless white person with respect to native issues; that is forgivable because she’s trying to improve.

  237. 237
    Elizabelle says:

    @geg6:

    the commenters here who are AA women all seem to have the same antipathy toward her and still won’t articulate any reason for other than the same tropes that Trump uses against her. I want a reason that isn’t bullshit.

    Thank you geg. That’s what I am wondering too.

    Points to ruemara for “showing her work” and expressing her concerns in her own voice, although she got some pushback because a lot of what she said just isn’t the case. Which was in itself interesting.

    I thought Tata’s comment was rancid. And polarizing.

  238. 238
    Miss Bianca says:

    @gwangung: I can respect all that. Most of my experience with NAs is with friends and acquaintances among Pueblo folk down in New Mexico, and most of them seem to either say, “huh?” or fall into the last category you mention, with respect to Warren. At least, so far, in the few conversations we’ve had on the subject.

  239. 239
    zzyzx says:

    @geg6:

    I did so above with no anti-Warren talking points:

    1) The case for Warren requires a certain faith in the American public to suddenly accept a progressive narrative and much of the AA population won’t be that sanguine.

    2) Social programs frequently are considered acceptable as long as they help whites but if an AA woman benefits, she’s a welfare queen.

  240. 240
    Miss Bianca says:

    @zzyzx: Point 1 I can understand. Ditto with Point 2, but…that seems to me to be more a reflection on white racism than on the merits of the social programs Warren is championing. Which maybe brings us spiraling back to Point 1.

  241. 241
    cain says:

    @ruemara:

    @cain: You would be wrong. Because you seem to think that influence = appropriation. You’re talking about someone who used a minority identity when she shouldn’t have and still cannot say, I was wrong and apologize. This is why I said what I said.

    I’m not talking about this instance with Warren + NA blood. It doesn’t particularly resonate to me. It didn’t seem to resonate with tribal elders either. My screed is generally about people complaining about culture appropriations – like a white chef making new kinds of Mexican dishes. I call bullshit on that. Passing yourself off as a native indian when you’re not is clearly bad, but at least she tried to rectify the situation. What would you think would be an appropriate response to alleviate your concerns?

    ETA – here is a link earlier this year of Warren apologizing in regards to her using Indian ancestry – https://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warren-again-apologizes-after-release-of-native-american-ancestry-link-11566241904

  242. 242
  243. 243
    zzyzx says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    I’m not saying if they’re right or wrong because I don’t know myself. I just think that that’s the reasoning against, and if you’re in the Warren camp, you need to figure out how to address those fears.

  244. 244
    geg6 says:

    @zzyzx:

    None of this is news to me. Doesn’t explain the vitriol and lies being used against her by people I would have thought would know better.

  245. 245
    Elizabelle says:

    @Another Scott: Scott’s link is a post from Elizabeth Warren. Which puts the lie to some of the misinformation upstream.

    by Elizabeth Warren. December 4, 2016.

    I don’t know how anyone could watch the news and not be horrified by what’s happening at Standing Rock Reservation in North Dakota.

    For months, the Standing Rock Sioux and thousands of others have opposed a pipeline that many believe risks contaminating the tribe’s water supply. What have they faced in response? Attack dogs. Rubber bullets. Tear gas. Water hoses in freezing temperatures. A 21-year-old graduate of Williams College in Massachusetts had her arm nearly destroyed. And last week, the governor directed state and local agencies to refuse emergency assistance as a way to expel the tribe and their “water protector” supporters.

    The Standing Rock Sioux are not animals to be corralled – they are human beings. Good, passionate human beings who have stood together in the middle of a North Dakota blizzard this past week, and stood together for many weeks before, to fight for what they believe in. They should be treated with respect and basic human decency.

    The construction workers and laborers at Standing Rock are also human beings – and they weren’t the ones to decide where to build this pipeline. They are good, hard-working people who are just trying to do their jobs. They also should be treated with respect and basic human decency.

    The fact is, we need a country where all of our children can safely drink the water and where we move away from dirty fossil fuels and build more sustainable green energy solutions. We also need good jobs and respect for our workers. All of these things are true. It is both/and, not either/or.

    Time is running out. Patience has worn thin. Nerves have frayed. Every day brings a chance for escalation of the violence and more injuries. The Obama Administration should step up now and work with the Army Corps of Engineers to find an alternate route to this pipeline and ways to address the concerns of the Standing Rock Sioux. Yes, there may be more work to do and it may take more money, but we need to act in good faith, deescalate this violence, and find a solution.

  246. 246
    Elizabelle says:

    People: there is clearly a huge misinformation campaign out there against Elizabeth Warren. Against Kamala Harris too.

    Do not take anything at face value. Do your critical thinking, and take a bit of time to investigate.

    At the very least, stop spreading disinformation. How is it that you know what you know? What was the source?

  247. 247
    cain says:

    @zzyzx:
    I can accept that.

    My gf says that black folks support Biden because of his relationship with Obama despite the previous work in the 90s. We had some back and forth, but mostly I was just listening. I don’t think Joe is the right person for this day and age and after having a very young person as President, it just seems odd to go back to previous generation – and I suppose I should apply that to Warren and Bernie as well. I’d vote for any of the candidates that comes up, I’ll vote enthusiastically because anything is better than what we have today.

    Maybe we should all stop arguing as this is just all noise anyways. We’re likely going to vote for whoever wins this nomination regardless.

  248. 248
    zhena gogolia says:

    @geg6: @Elizabelle:

    Okay, I am a white woman so I have hesitated to wade into this, but I also read the tweets rikyrah posts, and what I get from them is that Warren doesn’t have a history of allyship with POC, as Hillary did and Biden and Harris do. I think we’ve been a little derailed by the NA issue today, although it’s not unrelated.

    We have to win this election. That is all. If we don’t, it’s over. Warren makes me nervous in that respect — I was nervous about Hillary even though I strongly supported her. Warren gives me some of the same fears about not being able to connect in the general election.

    Sorry I can’t be all in with enthusiasm. I wish Harris were doing better. My reactions to her are entirely positive. She’s smart and tough and she isn’t playing Bernie’s game.

  249. 249
    Andrey says:

    @cain: I think you’re misunderstanding the issue with appropriation. Celebration and appreciation are not appropriation. Appropriation is largely an issue in two cases:

    1) When members of the originating culture get ignored (or actively belittled) for their cultural elements, while members of the privileged culture get praised for using those cultural elements.
    – Example: when black women wearing dreadlocks are stigmatized and treated as cultural inferiors, seeing a white woman wear dreadlocks without the same stigma is frustrating and reinforces the privilege gap.

    2) When members of the privileged culture take (or are given) disproportionate credit for the cultural elements they are incorporating, to the exclusion/erasure of the originating culture.
    – Example: Many Americans know South African musical culture solely through Die Antwoord, a group of white South Africans. Die Antwoord gets the credit for that musical style, while black South African artists are comparatively unknown in the US.

    Like most of the issues around culture and privilege, it’s not a matter of actions being “inherently” bad, it’s a matter of context. I recognize that it can be frustrating – essentially, one might be doing something that would be perfectly fine if not for the actions of others. But that is unfortunately common in reality.

  250. 250
    rikyrah says:

    CNN, Buzzfeed + the public will be seeing more FBI memos of witness interviews from Mueller, beginning w 500 pages by Nov. 1.

    Judge Walton wasn’t happy all 44K pages of Mueller 302 memos could take years to release publicly, per @davidgshortell https://t.co/EcvKnoDq8S

    — Katelyn Polantz (@kpolantz) October 1, 2019

  251. 251
    Elizabelle says:

    @zhena gogolia: I am not sure of the factual basis of a lot of the tweets that rikyrah posts, very honestly.

    I think we have a better chance of winning with Elizabeth or Kamala than anyone else. And they are both subject to massive disinformation campaigns aimed at the black community, apparently. We have been uncovering some in this thread.

  252. 252
    rikyrah says:

    @Elizabelle:

    @zhena gogolia: I am not sure of the factual basis of a lot of the tweets that rikyrah posts, very honestly.

    ok…whatever.

    There is a reason why her numbers haven’t moved in those Southern States. Ignore it if you want.

  253. 253
    cain says:

    @Andrey:
    I can accept that. Thanks for educating me. I agree those can be frustrating for the original culture.

  254. 254
    EmperorofIceCream says:

    @ruemara: I agree so much with this. It is going to make some folks on here unhappy, but based on what I see on twitter (and the way I see it too – doesn’t make me trust her on many levels) the whole native american appropriation she did is in no way behind her. I could be wrong, but that is my opinion.

  255. 255
    Miss Bianca says:

    @EmperorofIceCream: I would respectfully remind you (and myself, and others) that what resonates on Twitter is not, in fact, reflective of what is resonating IRL.

    For that matter – shocker alert – the same goes for Balloon Juice. : )

  256. 256
    PenandKey says:

    @Elizabelle: Given that this very post, that was ostensibly about Facebook going on the offensive against Warren, somehow got derailed and turned into a back and forth against Warren herself, I’m not at all surprised. I don’t see that as a coincidence.

  257. 257
    different-church-lady says:

    Y’all just keep clubbing every one our candidates across the crown of the noggin’ with the ratfucker supplied billyclubs until there’s nothing left for Trump to aim at, that’s the winning path yessirre.

  258. 258
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Andrey: I may be atypical of middle aged white dudes, but I have no issue with AA women or men who chose dreadlocks – whether for religious, cultural, or purely stylistic reasons. I do, generally, look askance at any white person who does it.

  259. 259
    tokyokie says:

    @the Conster:

    She isn’t Cherokee and neither were here parents, and she’s going to have to have a better explanation for her choices to identify herself as NA in the instances where she did, and her stories about the family lore don’t add up. Her parents were both well known locally as being from white families. Cultural appropriation is a bad look.

    I grew up in Oklahoma, and I can say from experience that LOTS of kids who grew up there in the 1950s and ’60s there had stories from a grandparent or a great aunt or uncle of some ancestor was a member of this Native American nation or another, especially if the kid’s family had moved to the area a couple of generations previously. My relatives have told me that my grandfather participated in the 1889 land run, but only to help his brother, as my grandfather (who died before I was born) was only 16 at the time and too young to claim land. Is that story a load of crap? Was I, as a 5-year-old, supposed to doubt the family stories told by my relatives of the previous generation? Was I supposed to tell my beloved maiden aunt that her story was sounded like bullshit?

    Warren’s story sounds like so many others I heard from playmates and classmates while growing up. It turns out that she was misinformed. Probably a lot of my classmates were as well. And you’re going to enable whatever vampire the GOP nominates by tenaciously clinging to such a position.

  260. 260
    Miss Bianca says:

    @PenandKey: Yeah, there is somewhat of a “Quod erat fuckin’ demonstrandum” there, isn’t there?

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m still scratching my head over the assertion that apparently white people in this country know about South African music through the agency of some white group I’ve never even heard of.

  261. 261
    satby says:

    The primaries will sort a lot of this out. It’s all balloon juice up to that point, and disagreeing based on FB memes and Tweets just sows discord, as it’s meant to. Which was the original topic of the post, now ably demonstrated in this thread. Until we see how the candidates ground game is working in the primaries, I’m holding all fire, except at Bernie and Tulsi.
    Besides, with 125 days to go, do we all really want to endlessly bicker about this?

  262. 262
    Elizabelle says:

    @rikyrah: I am not ignoring anything. But I well recall that Clinton was leading Obama in 2007. You got me to go looking a bit.

    NewsOne: Here Is Where Obama Was In The Polls In July Of 2007. Polls don’t mean much.

    In the summer of 2007, Obama was bombing with nearly every demographic, despite Hillary Clinton being considered a “polarizing” figure.

    “Bombing” is hyperbole here. But, as Obama proved, a good campaign, and showing that you can win and fight for people, goes a long way.

    More from the WaPost 2007 story. Poll Shows Clinton With Solid Lead Among Democrats

    By a wide margin, Democrats view Sen. Hillary Clinton (N.Y.) as the party’s candidate best positioned to win the general election, and she holds a double-digit lead over Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) in the race for the nomination, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News Poll.

    …. Clinton leads among both women and men in the new poll, holds a 30-point advantage among those from households with incomes under $50,000 and has a 2 to 1 lead among those with an education of a high school diploma or less.

    Obama’s strength stems from relatively high support among those with higher levels of education and income and from independents — groups that have helped him achieve record fundraising success. But Clinton is competitive with Obama within these groups as well.

    She and Obama split the votes of Democrats with college degrees and of those with household incomes of $50,000 a year or higher. They also have about equal levels of support from Democratic-leaning independents. (Among mainline Democrats, Clinton has an advantage of 50 percent to 31 percent.)

    Among whites, Clinton leads Obama by double digits, but the two run nearly neck-and-neck among African Americans: Forty-six percent would vote for Obama and 40 percent for Clinton.

    Clinton’s backers also tend to be more enthusiastic in their support than are Obama’s, but both candidates have solidified some of their support from early June. Two-thirds of Democrats who support Clinton do so strongly, compared with 56 percent of Obama’s supporters.

    People came to love and support Barack Obama once they saw more of him, and really listened. (Actually, for me, Michelle was the gateway drug. I heard her speak before I ever paid much attention to Barack. From then, I was theirs!)

    I think Elizabeth Warren is genuine, and connects with voters. She stands in endless selfie lines. Which means potential voters are standing in those endless lines too.

    That counts as much as innumerable tweets from ….. who?

  263. 263
    the Conster says:

    @tokyokie:

    Yes, I’m aware that’s her explanation. It’s not being universally accepted by the Dem base, which is who she will need to turn out for her, especially in the Southern state primaries, and this is all going to be vetted before the first votes are cast in the Dem primaries.

  264. 264
    Elizabelle says:

    @different-church-lady: I know. I am sick of people shit-talking about Democrats, and parading wingnut talking points.

  265. 265
    satby says:

    @Elizabelle: I had to argue with a friend in FB this morning, telling them the anti-Buttigieg meme* they shared (sourced from Wilmer’s page) was factually incorrect. I assume they’re doing the same to Warren, and they were behind the “Kamala is a cop” stuff too. And, as was shown in 2016, most of those came from the Russian troll farm in St.Petersburg. It’s only going to get worse as people get offended at being told they’re factually incorrect and harden their stances. Mission accomplished.
    * It was saying that S.Bend didn’t have programs to help homeowners, just “build big downtown buildings”. There have been several neighborhood programs to assist homeowners, and there hasn’t been a new building built downtown in the three years I’ve lived here, though there has been a lot of revitalizing of old structures. Just easily debunked bullshit.

  266. 266
    Elizabelle says:

    @satby: Yup.

    And they’re clearly splitting us down racial lines (or trying to). Who does that benefit?

  267. 267
    japa21 says:

    All this talk about Warren and how she still needs to take care of the NA issue and how her story doesn’t add up etc. reminds me. Hillary still has a lot of explaining to do about her emails.

  268. 268
    satby says:

    @japa21: Pompeo and Gorka will sort it out, after a nice vacay on taxpayer some in Italy.

  269. 269
    Chris T. says:

    @Mandalay: That was only 23 years ago. Anything more recent than 800 years ago is “recent”, doncha know. (Do I need the “//s” or whatever it is here?)

  270. 270
    Miss Bianca says:

    @japa21: Right on! Both ladies still got some ‘splainin’ to do with regard to their respective CLOUDS and SHADOWS!

  271. 271
    different-church-lady says:

    @Miss Bianca: I know it’s sad, but Simon and Garfunkle just aren’t relavent to today’s youth.

  272. 272
    Betty Cracker says:

    The Bernie Bros continue to be the most obnoxious assholes about other candidates. Some pinhead from Jacobin just opined on Twitter that Warren should stop calling herself a teacher because she only taught K-12 public school for a year; the decades of being a professor don’t count, I guess. Another commented that Warren is “stealing teacher valor,” and yet another chimed in that it was just another example of Warren’s appetite for appropriation. My eyes were rolling like slot machine reels.

  273. 273
    different-church-lady says:

    @satby:

    with 125 days to go, do we all really want to endlessly bicker about this?

    You sure you really want an answer to that?

  274. 274
    rikyrah says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Elizabeth Warren is not Barack Obama.
    They don’t know her. They were willing to take a chance on Obama, after knowing the Clintons. You don’t think that folks in Southern States don’t see those other polls. And, they have not budged. She has no history. None.

  275. 275
    Elizabelle says:

    @rikyrah: Rikyrah: why do you think Kamala Harris is not gaining in the polls? That has actually been most surprising to me.

    And I do not understand why Elizabeth Warren’s work studying middle class economic issues, two income families, consumer protection, income inequality, does not resonate with black voters. What do you think is going on there?

  276. 276
    PenandKey says:

    @satby: I’m holding all fire, except at Bernie and Tulsi.
    Besides, with 125 days to go, do we all really want to endlessly bicker about this?

    Not only is this the internet, but this is Balloon Juice. endlessly bickering is an art form well practiced here.

  277. 277
    Betty Cracker says:

    @rikyrah: Warren’s numbers still suck in comparison to Biden’s in the Southern states, but IIRC, in at least one recent poll, her SC numbers doubled (to a still-pathetic 11, if I’m remembering right, but she’s made some progress). I think one hurdle Warren has to overcome in the South is that Democrats down here tend to be more moderate.

  278. 278
    rikyrah says:

    @Elizabelle:

    @rikyrah: Rikyrah: why do you think Kamala Harris is not gaining in the polls? That has actually been most surprising to me.

    In the Southern Polls, they don’t trust White people. If Harris does well in Iowa and New Hampshire, she has laid the groundwork in the Southern states to make a move.
    Southern Black people are nothing if not pragmatic. They have one goal and one goal only – to get Dolt45 out of there. Period. They have no room for a second Dolt45 term. Nobody else in this country understands the loss of federal protections more than Black voters living in GOP Controlled States in the age of Dolt45. They want their federal protections back.

  279. 279
    Elizabelle says:

    @rikyrah: Thank you. And for the second part of the question?

  280. 280
    different-church-lady says:

    @Betty Cracker: To use a dumb sports cliche, “This is why you play all 60.”

  281. 281
    different-church-lady says:

    @rikyrah:

    Nobody else in this country understands the loss of federal protections more than Black voters living in GOP Controlled States in the age of Dolt45.

    Informative. So how do we get this in front of Warren?

  282. 282
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @different-church-lady: I would say that it is the responsibility of Warren’s team and supporters to get that information in front of her. I don’t think that you can fairly put it on Biden or Harris supporters to point out things to a candidate they do not support.

  283. 283
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I would posit that she’s probably smart enough to grok that information already. What she chooses to do about acting on it is, of course, another matter.

  284. 284
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: No disagreement here.

  285. 285
    Elizabelle says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I really took dcl’s comment for snark. Because, like, how would Elizabeth Warren not already know that? How would any actual Democratic candidate not understand that?

    As Miss Bianca picked up on.

  286. 286
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Elizabelle: My sense of humor around here has gotten a bit frayed. I find myself commenting less and less often and I am considering just taking a break from the place for a while.

  287. 287
    MomSense says:

    I just love it when all the white progressives pile on to two of our best informed, most insightful commenters, who also happen to be WOC, and tell them they’re misinformed and wrong. Not cool, Jackals. This thread is embarrassing.

  288. 288
    Elizabelle says:

    @MomSense: I beg to disagree there, MomSense. We have two women of color who have made some outright erroneous statements (ruemara) and rikyrah who has been posting tweets from who knows who for ages, with no context.

    We all have language. We can use it. We can say what we think. We can back it up. We can provide links that provide background and verification. We can apologize when we turn out to be in error. I do listen and learn from people here, and particularly enjoy when they explain something well.

    Personally, I do not feel that the observations of white women, or blue women, or women who live in Idaho, or any women who engage in respectful discussion, deserve less respect. I am seeing a real double standard here. For some time now.

    If Elizabeth Warren does not float everyone’s boats, then fine. But why post all kind of tweets that smear her? Not cool.

    I do care what rikyrah thinks. I care what ruemara thinks, and am grateful to her for her gracious sharing of the audio for the 1617 Project.

    I want to hear their voices, not some black guy on twitter who might be snarking or not. No context. Don’t hide behind others.

    If they are that “best informed and most insightful” I expect no less.

  289. 289
    Elizabelle says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think that is what some of this crap is meant to do. Separate us along racial lines, and drive us away. It’s kind of working.

  290. 290
    MomSense says:

    @Elizabelle:

    The balloon- juice front page is mostly twitter links. You are perfectly capable of evaluating their veracity.

  291. 291
    Elizabelle says:

    @MomSense: When they are recognizable sources and link to a verified publication or have some other source of credibility. You never know who is who on the internet otherwise.

    Who is Je Suis Corn Pop? Did you know what Corn Pop referred to? Had to look it up. It’s kind of ephemeral. I know Popehat has been good in the past and kind of recognize his constant name changes.

  292. 292
    NotMax says:

    @MomSense

    The balloon- juice front page is mostly twitter links.

    Hands down the most depressing sentence of the day.

  293. 293
    Miss Bianca says:

    @MomSense: I just love it when people exaggerate for effect.

    I also love it when people talk shit about women candidates and then act like it’s an insult when they’re asked to show their work. Reminds me of 2016.

  294. 294
    Elizabelle says:

    @Miss Bianca: Thank you. That is exactly what is going on.

    Don’t hide behind others’ words. Show your work. Own it. If you cannot, then maybe you need to reassess, hmmm?

    MomSense can go scold someone else.

  295. 295
    MomSense says:

    @Miss Bianca: @Elizabelle:

    Or you know instead of scolding Rikyrah and Ruemara you could go seek out some more diverse sources and see what people outside this bubble are saying.

    There are plenty out there.

Comments are closed.