.@murraywaas on Giuliani: "The Ukrainian initiative appears to have begun in service of formulating a rationale by which the president could pardon Manafort, as part of an effort to undermine the special counsel’s investigation." Wow. https://t.co/LrBOcAxgo9 @nybooks
— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) September 26, 2019
… These records indicate that attorneys representing Trump and Manafort respectively had at least nine conversations relating to this effort, beginning in the early days of the Trump administration, and lasting until as recently as May of this year. Through these deliberations carried on by his attorneys, Manafort exhorted the White House to press Ukrainian officials to investigate and discredit individuals, both in the US and in Ukraine, who he believed had published damning information about his political consulting work in the Ukraine. A person who participated in the joint defense agreement between President Trump and others under investigation by Special Counsel Robert Mueller, including Manafort, allowed me to review extensive handwritten notes that memorialized conversations relating to Manafort and Ukraine between Manafort’s and Trump’s legal teams, including Trump’s personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani…
From 2004 to 2014, Manafort had advised President Viktor Yanukovych, who advocated that his country sever ties with the United States and other Western nations, and align itself more closely with Vladimir Putin’s Russia. After Yanukovych fled the country in disgrace in 2014, a ledger was recovered from the burned-out ruins of his Party of Regions. Its records showed that Yanukovych and his political allies had made some $12.7 million in secret cash payments to Manafort. The disclosure led directly to Manafort’s resignation in August 2016 as chairman of the Trump presidential campaign…
… Manafort and those around him took the very public efforts by Giuliani to press Ukraine to investigate Manafort’s accusers as a favorable signal that the president might still pardon him after the 2020 presidential election. Trump is famously transactional, and Manafort feared that the president might be leading him on, according to the person who was party to the joint defense agreement communications. Giuliani’s constant touting of the Ukraine issue proved “reassuring” to Manafort, albeit to “a limited degree,” according to this person…
"Manafort was calling the shots"
…
From a cell? Was he also complaining Vinnie put too many onions in the sauce? https://t.co/eEROkn5xae— Zeddy (@Zeddary) September 26, 2019
This is the part that was most interesting to me: The part where Fruity and Trump feel they need to “reassure” Manafort that he’ll get a pardon, like they have to keep him happy. Why? ?? 3/ pic.twitter.com/PMJr185Pc0
— Asha Rangappa (@AshaRangappa_) September 26, 2019
Well, there’s that whole thing where Manafort has goods he never spilled in his fake-out plea agreement which Mueller pulled after he found out Manafort was lying. And we know Manafort was a linchpin in the Russia investigation, as I wrote here https://t.co/IlcDIoOY3n
— Asha Rangappa (@AshaRangappa_) September 26, 2019
Sooooooo…based on the article, at least, this past week is just a sliver of a longer-term effort involving Manafort, his revenge against perceived enemies in Ukraine, Trump wanting to pardon him (presumably so he won’t blab), and Rudy having no idea what the hell he’d doing END pic.twitter.com/BKF64tnZkp
— Asha Rangappa (@AshaRangappa_) September 26, 2019
this is, of course, entirely plausible if you know absolutely anything about Paul Manafort.
— Zeddy (@Zeddary) September 26, 2019
Wondering if money went through Trump 2020 and Parscale. It all gets more interestinger and interestinger.
— Murph the Archivist ?? (@smarchivist) September 26, 2019
— John Bolton's Mustache (@BoltonMustach) September 26, 2019
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
This movie has too fucking many subplots.
MattF
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): No Roger Stone subplot, though. Yet.
Hitlesswonder
NPR says it’s hearsay and their guest from the Federalist (whose political orientation is not mentioned) says this activity does not rise to the level of an impeachable act.
What do people think? Is this indeed a nothing-burger? In an unofficial survey of my household, that seems to be the prevailing opinion.
TS (the original)
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): And listening to this hearing I can but agree with your comment. I’m not understanding executive privilege – it sure never stopped the GOP investigating President Obama.
arrieve
I am guessing Vlad is not very happy about any of this — except as far as his end game is to see the West in shambles. But Manafort being the underlying reason for all of this? I did not see that coming. Please please please let this end with Rudy in an orange jumpsuit.
rikyrah
In the morning thread, it was posted about this all the Ukraine stuff being a point to help Manafort. You have to think further than that. By talking about the ‘server’ being in Ukraine, and thus trying to shift things to Ukraine…
The fundamental sanctions leveled against Russia because this country – in its official position- says that they attacked the 2016 elections….
Cannot be lifted until they get another scapegoat.
This is all about Vlad and his money. He wants those sanctions GONE. And, Dolt45 is STILL carrying water for him.
schrodingers_cat
My FP lol about, the guy who is enabling a lot of this criminal and corrupt behavior, Barr
Chip Daniels
One account I read of a reporter’s profile of the Trump campaign was that every single person, from Manafort down to the interns, was pursuing some sort of grift or self-interested scheme.
In other words, there are no idealistic Trump agents, no cause they work for, but the entire thing is a feeding frenzy of con men and carnival hucksters.
Zinsky
I hope Adam Schiff is aware of this story! If this is true, this represents even more nails in Trumpo’s coffin…
I’m watching Devin Nunes on TV embarrassing the entire GOP with this idiotic punkass comments. Someone needs to smash his nose all over his face!
Betty Cracker
@Hitlesswonder: I’m doubtful the Repubs could have pulled off that spin long term anyway, even with the “hearsay” letter as sole evidence since it alludes to witnesses and additional material that can be investigated. But the letter paired with the call notes is pretty damned devastating, and the Federalist hack is whistling past the graveyard.
@Chip Daniels: Sounds about right.
schrodingers_cat
@schrodingers_cat: Comma should have been after lol not about. Sorry Grammar Police.
Yarrow
This has always been the Russian mob, which is run by Putin or runs Putin. Takes on that vary. Trump is part of it, whether he understands that or not.
Two reminders about Manafort:
1. Manafort had Trump’s pilot fake a problem with Trump’s plane so Trump would spend an extra night in Indiana with the Pence family. Manafort wanted Pence.
2. Tad Devine, Wilmer’s former campaign manager, worked closely with Manafort in Ukraine to elect Yanukovych.
Betty
Murray Wass is very good.
Roger Moore
@rikyrah:
I think it’s a mistake to look at anything this big and to try to point it back to a single cause. The whole thing may have started with Manafort, but once it started rolling it developed its own internal logic to keep going. IMO, this is the case with lots of things that turn out to be big mistakes. Rather than being simple and following from sensible original logic, they turn into their own self-perpetuating phenomena. That tendency to keep following even when the original justification no longer holds is how you get from a dumb idea to a genuine catastrophe.
Soprano2
@rikyrah: I thought the exact same thing as I was listening to Maddow’s broadcast on my computer this morning. “Oh, it’s all about blaming Ukraine for the hack and thus having an excuse to lift the sanctions”. I’m tired of this story, because the writers have made it more convoluted than “Lost” was.
Oh, and the Federalist hack was Ben Domenech.
Yarrow
@Soprano2:
Husband of Meghan McCain.
Baud
@Hitlesswonder:
A “we like Trump” nothingburger or a “we’re too cool for school” nothingburger?
Mandalay
O/T, but Manafort is looking pretty darn healthy and handsome for a 70 year old man in that O/P photo.
He looks like he’s lost 40 pounds, and has ditched the hair dye and 1970s haircut.
Who knew going to the slammer was good for your health and your looks?
schrodingers_cat
@Mandalay: I was thinking the same thing.
Bruce K
@Baud: That nothingburger seems to have a lot of barbecue sauce on it.
PJ
@Roger Moore: I understand why Manafort would want to get back at the Ukrainians who provided evidence that brought about him leaving the Trump campaign, and, eventually, winding up in jail. I also understand the desire by Trump (at the behest of Putin and/or Roger Stone and Manafort) to muddy the waters with the idea that it was not Russia, directed by Putin, but elements in Ukraine, directed by (Hillary? the DNC? Obama?) who hacked the DNC servers to discredit Russia and somehow ensure Hillary was elected by embarrassing the DNC (this conspiracy theory makes no f*cking sense but I don’t think that’s the goal.)
As others have noted, I think the problem arose for Trump when Giuliani and/or Trump decided that this was an opportunity to smear Biden at the same time. If Trump hadn’t asked for his favor from Zelenskiy, none of this would be coming out now.
Hoodie
@Baud: Probably borchst and black bread, i.e., definitely not a burger.
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: Assume you saw this yesterday. Fits with your comments about how the Indian press is being threatened.
Betty Cracker
@Yarrow: That snowflake blocks me on Twitter! :)
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: Which one?
ThresherK
About Donna, the Trump voter the NYT has interviewed 4x as the voice of the swing voter, I can’t decide what Onionism is more apt:
–The “Area (wo)man” t-shirt, or
–“Why do these Times reporters keep sucking my ‘undecided’ c*ck?”
Mandalay
@Hitlesswonder:
NPR needs to STFU then. They’re barking up the wrong tree. Trump’s veiled threats in a phone call may not seal the deal, but this is highly volatile, with an electronic trail:
At the risk of using a tired cliche, it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up.
Betty Cracker
@Yarrow: Domenech. Mike Huckabee and Dan Bongino too! I think they have the same block bot or something.
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: Bingo.
James E Powell
@Baud:
Or maybe a “What really matters is that the DNC is rigging the primaries against Bernie again” nothingburger.
Barbara
@Hitlesswonder: Is that your household of one?
Cheryl from Maryland
Someone, please tell me the Democrats are not blowing this by treated Mr. Maguire as a hostile witness and focusing on how they got this information, trying to get him to admit Trump and/or Barr stopped its passage. Because Mr. Maguire is giving them nothing — the man persisted to get this complaint out and was successful. He’s working with the Whistleblower’s counsel to have the Whistleblower report. He’s not the problem.
Hitlesswonder
@Betty Cracker: I have to say, it seems to me like obviously pressuring a foreign government to investigate a political rival seems like something that warrants impeachment to me…and I think I’m pretty cynical. I feel like quite a few people don’t share that feeling and I don’t know why….I’m not sure what their bar is…..
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: They may share a block list. Bunch of snowflakes.
Citizen Alan
@Hitlesswonder:
So what. Hearsay is perfectly admissible and probative when offered solely to prove that the statements were made.
TS (the original)
@Cheryl from Maryland:
Taking the issue to the WH & the Ag is definitely a problem that has to be stopped. He is stonewalling the questions and is only talking to the committee cause the president* said it is OK. His actions are definitely part of the problem.
schrodingers_cat
@Yarrow: I saw that. Did you Roger Cohen’s op-ed regurgitating BJP propaganda?
schrodingers_cat
@Yarrow: The truth is like garlic to the RWNJ vampires.
Roger Moore
@PJ:
I think the real mistake is letting Trump listen to conspiracy theories from QAnon. There’s a really nasty feedback loop that gets him further and further disconnected from reality, which is not a good thing for the leader of a personality cult. Yes, cult leaders are always at risk of becoming disconnected from reality, but letting them mainline insanity is not going to help matters at all.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Hitlesswonder: Misuse of the classification system doesn’t rise to the level of impeachable offenses?
Hitlesswonder
@Barbara: Nope…it’s actually more than one. FWIW, I don’t understand why lobbyists staying at Trump hotels isn’t impeachable. The fact that so much, to me, blatant corruption is sort of OK with so many people….even those that I wouldn’t consider hard-right conservatives….makes me question my ability to judge what is an action worthy of impeachment.
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: No, I’ve been super busy with post-disaster issues. Missed a lot. Just caught the tweet on, of all things, a UK constitutional law Twitter.
bystander
@Betty Cracker: Brought up plagiarism, didja?
Roger Moore
@Hitlesswonder:
Being a member of the other political party. IOKIYAR is the only principle they really care about.
PJ
@Cheryl from Maryland: DNI Maguire was required by law to forward the whistleblower’s complaint to Congress. Instead, according to him, he decided on his own, because he was concerned about an executive privilege that had not been claimed, to forward the complaint to the Attorney General, and possibly to discuss it with the President. By failing to forward the complaint, he violated the law and shirked his duty, and by passing it on to the White House (since Barr acts as Trump’s personal attorney), alerted Trump that Trump’s request for a favor, and his system of hiding records of suspicious phone calls, was considered a serious violation by people outside of his control.
In short, Maguire failed at a basic duty and at the same time tipped off the White House that their behavior was under scrutiny, so that they could try, as they did, to suppress it. The Director of National Intelligence is definitely part of the problem.
schrodingers_cat
@Yarrow: NYT’s unsaid motto seems to be, No Despot Left Behind.
The Moar You Know
@Roger Moore: Friend of mine, who is a public defender and as such has a LOT of experience with stupid clients, says it’s obvious to her that Trump, like many of her clients, has no idea of the seriousness of the situation he’s in, and to make it worse, no one is willing or able to tell him.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): I hate it when I get to the part of the mystery where things are unraveling and you find out “aha! It was Wellington!” and I’m going, “Who was Wellington again?”
And this is supposed to be the simplified core of Trump corruption that’s easy to tell, prosecute and explain to the press and public.
The stuff that ropes in every
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
“All The News That Fits The Narrative”
Mandalay
@Citizen Alan:
No doubt, but your sounding like a lawyer. That may fire up Democrats, but Trump can piss all over that in a couple of tweets. I doubt if that alone is going to erase Trump’s support, no matter how persuasive the whistle blower might be.
This, on the other hand, looks like dynamite:
There’s no he-said-she-said with that action, and I suspect there are a ton of White House Administration paw prints all over that cover up. DC lawyers must be grinning from ear to ear right now., just waiting for the phone to ring. I’m guessing Mick Mulvaney in particular must be shitting his pants right now.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: Their narrative always benefits TPTB.
Matt McIrvin
@Hitlesswonder: It’s not worthy of impeachment unless it’s a crime. It’s not a crime unless it’s prosecuted as a crime. It can’t be prosecuted as a crime because the Constitution says impeachment is the remedy.
It’s a great catch, that Catch-22.
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: I struggle to see how they would behave differently from how they behave now in their political coverage if they were owned by enemies of the US.
Hoodie
@Citizen Alan: TV and internet is turning people’s brains into mush. A bunch of idiots are now criminal trial lawyers who know all the finer points of the Federal Rules of Evidence (in which, by the way, there are something like thirty exceptions to the rule against hearsay), not that admissability standards for courts have fuck all to do with what the Congress does re impeachment. It seems like the bar for presidential behavior is now “hasn’t been proven beyond a reasonable doubt without any investigation to have committed an offense outlined in the US Code, unless the subject is not Caucasian.”
Baud
@Citizen Alan:
Congress can also call the officials to testify.
PJ
@PJ: I tried to edit this but failed for WP reasons. Anyway, Maguire didn’t take the complaint to Barr, he took it to OLC. The end result is the same, that Trump was informed about it and reacted accordingly.
PJ
@Mandalay: There is no “he said/she said” with regard to Trump’s call with Zelenskiy – Trump and Giuliani have admitted it, and it’s in the “transcript” as well. The problem is that some people (how many voters?) don’t see any problem with a President leaning on a foreign leader to investigate a political opponent so that they can win the next election.
Ramalama
@Mandalay: Took the words right out of my .. keyboard.
Roger Moore
@Mandalay:
And this is backed up by the “Secret/NOFORN” markings on the readout. Yes, that makes it classified, but they didn’t even bother to mark it as Top Secret, code word level material before trying to treat it as super secret.
karen marie
@Yarrow: Did you know her father was John McCain? Did you know he was a war prisoner? True story!
Miss Bianca
@Hitlesswonder: I think it would lead *me* to question my friends’ and family’s judgement, but I get where you’re coming from. The view from Jackal Land can definitely look much different than from other vantage points.
Yarrow
@karen marie: No way! That is news!
Baud
@Miss Bianca:
True. Doesn’t really matter. We have no choice but to see this through to the end.
schrodingers_cat
@Yarrow: Same here. How much in debt is the Schulzberger family is to the Russian mob in NYC? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Jeffro
It’s weird but I just cannot get a response out of RWNJ bro and dad for two days running now…I wonder why that is?
(We’re talking 3 emails in 48 hours, so no I’m not carpet-bombing them or e-jeering them or anything. Although I certainly should…)
I think the odds of trumpov resigning/being impeached, convicted, and removed/being impeached but not convicted and limping to a big 2020 loss/being impeached but not convicted and surging to a 2020 win are something like 10/70/9/1 at this point. Go hard, go fast Dems!
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: It really is that bad. It’s so obvious once you switch your framing on it.
Gex
@Hitlesswonder: Which federalist?
Gex
@schrodingers_cat: This is straight up in the tradition of Duranty though. It is in the NYT’s DNA.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@schrodingers_cat: Speaking of the Russian mob, what’s going on with Trump’s New York tax returns? I thought a judge ruled they had to be released.
(brief Google search)
Dammit. He’s gotten a stay on that. Till next Wednesday, Oct 2 and then they’re back in court for some reason.
Hitlesswonder
@schrodingers_cat: And apparently the Times was all ready for the narrative to be about Biden family corruption: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/trump-ukraine-scandal-new-york-times-biden.html. In fact they looked at this story, and that’s how they viewed it. It’s like going after the Clinton Foundation when the Trump Foundation is sitting there actually violating the law. In my hazy political history memory, I can trace the bizarre editorial and reportage decisions of the Times to dragging Gore for “having a problem with the Truth”….where’d that standard go…to being a pro-war propaganda outlet for the Bush administration…the coverage of the e-mail server in 2016….
At some point, the truth about the agenda of a person or organization becomes obvious.
schrodingers_cat
@Hitlesswonder: Yet they have this mythical status of being “liberal”. I also remember how they otherized Teresa Heinz Kerry for being foreign born but Melania did not get a similar treatment from the NYT or the rest of the MSM.
Ivan X
@Roger Moore: This is insightful, and I think an equally apt way of describing the 2008 subprime crisis.
Leto
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: The tax returns are being pursued through several avenues in the courts, but all are being tied up/delayed.
Steeplejack
@Gex:
The publication/website, not the Federalist Society.
Mandalay
@PJ:
You said what I was trying to convey far better than me.
At this stage the entire clusterfuck is largely political, and about winning hearts and minds. Later the legal side of the whistleblower’s testimony will surely kick in, but right now the court is more that of public and Congressional opinion.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
God, this asshole is unable to answer any yes/no questions. The latest one: “Can you just assure us that the whistleblower will be protected by the whistleblower protection act”
Answer: vague handwaving, refusal to say yes, just “we’re working on it”
MCA1
@Matt McIrvin: Yeah, that seems to be the direction some of the Congressional R’s are taking this, and no doubt it’ll feed down to the Trumpalo base in some form of “It says high ‘crimes’ right there in the Constitooshun. If it’s a crime why are they prosecuting him?” and that’s all the depth of sand they need to hide their heads.
@Hitless: I share your puzzlement and feel occasionally like I’m being gaslighted on what is and isn’t immoral anymore by living in this era. My theory is that for any number of reasons we as a society have a very limited common sense of moral code these days, and that’s combined with (a) a horrible lack of civics education, meaning very few people have a real sense for how politics and law actually work, and affect their lives, and (b) an overwhelming collective complacency, so that if something doesn’t immediately impact people in an extreme way they don’t want to be bothered and distracted from America’s Got Talent. When you put all those together, it’s felt like for the last three years we’ve had to go all the way back to re-learn as a society the most fundamental moral precepts. Like: cheating is bad. Lying is bad. So it should come as no surprise, I guess, that a lot people hear even prima facie horrible things, like “multiple people in the White House acted to hide a discussion by the President where he solicited/extorted a ginned up scandal against a political rival by using taxpayer money earmarked to help an ally defend itself against Vladimir Putin, who was infringing on their border, by treating non-classified information as though it were classified” and shrug. There’s cheating, there’s betrayal, there’s abuse of the office. But politics is just another game show, and not important, plus all those people in D.C. are bad and self-serving people so what did we expect, and also too this doesn’t have any impact on me so it’s really not worth removing a president over it. The decay of our institutions is of no immediate import to many. The shredding of our reputation abroad doesn’t have any effect on who the Cowboys play this Sunday. The distinction between classified and unclassified information is wonky and it’s never been a problem in my lifetime so I assume this sort of thing happens all the time.
MCA1
@MCA1: Can’t edit today for some reason. “aren’t” not “are” in imagined quote in first paragraph.
kindness
@Roger Moore: NYT ;
Fixed it for you.
sdhays
@PJ: It’s especially damning when the Attorney General himself is implicated in the whistleblower’s report. At best, this guy is in way over his head and deserves to be made to feel it.
Quaker in a Basement
@Hitlesswonder: Trump, Giuliani, Barr, WH lawyers, acting DNI…all need to be removed. More to follow.
Quaker in a Basement
@MCA1: What you said. Friend speaks my mind.
cain
@MCA1:
Even what is good and proper in Christian religion is being gas lighted. To some Trump is an example of a Christian man in God’s grace. They are really hitting the divine right there.
VOR
@MCA1: Where are our guardians of morality these days? Religion – think about the Catholic Church hiding pedophile priests, look at the current mess around Jerry Falwell Jr. and his fondness for distributing money to 20-something year old men. Government – Pentagon Papers, Iran Contra, Nixon, and the Iraq war took care of that. Banks – remember the 2008 Great Recession? And now the Evangelicals, who profess to be moral, are perfectly okay with a man who embodies all Seven Deadly Sins because he hates the same people they do.
Searcher
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): It also does that stupid thing where you THINK a subplot has been resolved or a character has been written out, but then they just keep showing up.
“Manafort? Goddamnit, I thought we finished that in season 2.”
lumpkin
People should stop calling Bernie Sanders Wilmer. He has chosen to self identify as Bernie. It’s insulting and detracts from your point when you deliberately misidentify someone. I am not a Bernie supporter but this bugs the shit out of me.
Jay
@lumpkin:
Bernie is called Wilmer here out of tradition. In the 2016 Primaries, Bernie Bots would autosearch any mention of Bernie or Bernie Sanders, then swarm in and trash the comments.
Referring to Bernie as Wilmer stopped their swarm attacks.