Ka-BOOM (Open Thread)

Breaking news from The Post:

President Trump told his acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, to hold back almost $400 million in military aid for Ukraine at least a week before a phone call in which Trump is said to have pressured the Ukrainian president to investigate the son of former vice president Joe Biden, according to three senior administration officials…

Trump’s order to withhold aid to Ukraine a week before his July 25 call with Volodymyr Zelensky is likely to raise questions about the motivation for his decision and fuel suspicions on Capitol Hill that Trump sought to leverage congressionally approved aid to damage a political rival. The revelation comes as lawmakers clash with the White House over a related whistleblower complaint made by an intelligence official alarmed by Trump’s actions.

Sounds pretty quid pro quo-ish to me. Also, seven freshmen Democrats from swing districts — Reps. Gil Cisneros of California, Jason Crow of Colorado, Chrissy Houlahan of Pennsylvania, Elaine Luria of Virginia, Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey, Elissa Slotkin of Michigan and Abigail Spanberger of Virginia — released an op-ed in The Post this evening:

The president of the United States may have used his position to pressure a foreign country into investigating a political opponent, and he sought to use U.S. taxpayer dollars as leverage to do it. He allegedly sought to use the very security assistance dollars appropriated by Congress to create stability in the world, to help root out corruption and to protect our national security interests, for his own personal gain. These allegations are stunning, both in the national security threat they pose and the potential corruption they represent…

This flagrant disregard for the law cannot stand. To uphold and defend our Constitution, Congress must determine whether the president was indeed willing to use his power and withhold security assistance funds to persuade a foreign country to assist him in an upcoming election.

If these allegations are true, we believe these actions represent an impeachable offense. We do not arrive at this conclusion lightly, and we call on our colleagues in Congress to consider the use of all congressional authorities available to us, including the power of “inherent contempt” and impeachment hearings, to address these new allegations, find the truth and protect our national security.

Looks like the dam is breaking in House leadership [Politico]:

House Democrats may vote this week on a resolution condemning President Donald Trump’s efforts to pressure Ukrainian officials to investigate Joe Biden, as Speaker Nancy Pelosi and party leaders consider ramping up impeachment proceedings against the president, according to lawmakers and aides.

Pelosi is expected to meet with the six committee chairmen investigating Trump on Tuesday afternoon to discuss Democrats’ next steps and may even issue a forceful statement endorsing the impeachment investigation.

My guess is no formal impeachment inquiry will be announced until after the acting DNI appears before Congress on Thursday and makes it clear he intends to continue to illegally withhold the whistleblower complaint. After that, the House will start the investigation. It will have no other option.






155 replies
  1. 1
    Mary G says:

    The dominos are falling. Better late than never.

    ETA: I did say Nancy SMASH would flip in the fall when people are paying attention.

  2. 2
    cain says:

    FUCK. YEAH! It’s about time.

  3. 3

    Democratic caucus meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) afternoon at 4 pm. I agree that the move to impeachment will be after Thursday unless Trump does something even more outrageous between now and then.

  4. 4
    Baud says:

    @Mary G:

    Is it late though? If impeachment had started when people were first pressing for it, it would have been about obstruction of Justice rather than this, which is a hundred times more serious, and something more understandable to voters.

  5. 5
    zhena gogolia says:

    Reposted from below, under pressure from my phone call this afternoon, Rosa De Lauro is starting to crack:

    Long-time Pelosi ally Rep. Rosa DeLauro says that she’ll back impeachment proceedings if Trump does not comply with congressional oversight demands on Ukraine.

  6. 6
    Elizabelle says:

    Here’s the full text of the WaPost op ed. It’s short.

    Seven freshman Democrats: These allegations are a threat to all we have sworn to protect

    September 23 at 9:00 PM

    Reps. Gil Cisneros of California, Jason Crow of Colorado, Chrissy Houlahan of Pennsylvania, Elaine Luria of Virginia, Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey, Elissa Slotkin of Michigan and Abigail Spanberger of Virginia are all freshman Democrats.

    Our lives have been defined by national service. We are not career politicians. We are veterans of the military and of the nation’s defense and intelligence agencies. Our service is rooted in the defense of our country on the front lines of national security.

    We have devoted our lives to the service and security of our country, and throughout our careers, we have sworn oaths to defend the Constitution of the United States many times over. Now, we join as a unified group to uphold that oath as we enter uncharted waters and face unprecedented allegations against President Trump.

    The president of the United States may have used his position to pressure a foreign country into investigating a political opponent, and he sought to use U.S. taxpayer dollars as leverage to do it. He allegedly sought to use the very security assistance dollars appropriated by Congress to create stability in the world, to help root out corruption and to protect our national security interests, for his own personal gain. These allegations are stunning, both in the national security threat they pose and the potential corruption they represent. We also know that on Sept. 9, the inspector general for the intelligence community notified Congress of a “credible” and “urgent” whistleblower complaint related to national security and potentially involving these allegations. Despite federal law requiring the disclosure of this complaint to Congress, the administration has blocked its release to Congress.

    This flagrant disregard for the law cannot stand. To uphold and defend our Constitution, Congress must determine whether the president was indeed willing to use his power and withhold security assistance funds to persuade a foreign country to assist him in an upcoming election.

    If these allegations are true, we believe these actions represent an impeachable offense. We do not arrive at this conclusion lightly, and we call on our colleagues in Congress to consider the use of all congressional authorities available to us, including the power of “inherent contempt” and impeachment hearings, to address these new allegations, find the truth and protect our national security.

    As members of Congress, we have prioritized delivering for our constituents — remaining steadfast in our focus on health care, infrastructure, economic policy and our communities’ priorities. Yet everything we do harks back to our oaths to defend the country. These new allegations are a threat to all we have sworn to protect. We must preserve the checks and balances envisioned by the Founders and restore the trust of the American people in our government. And that is what we intend to do.

  7. 7
    Lapassionara says:

    “Forceful statement”? Seriously?

    Please, just do your jobs!

  8. 8
    Mary G says:

    She’s whipping!

    SCOOP: Pelosi quietly sounding out House Democrats about whether to impeach Trump, officials say Via @rachaelmbade @mikedebonis https://t.co/LbU0sX3v5N— Dave Clarke (@davecclarke) September 24, 2019

  9. 9
    Served says:

    The seven coming out tonight is a big signal flare that the tide is changing. Once the safe Dems who are keeping quiet to keep a wall around Pelosi start to break, then we know leadership has given the go.

    It’s taken years, but I’m ready to see some consequences. I’m stocking up on alcohol.

  10. 10
    Mary G says:

    Your godawful Senator, Betty:

    Sen. Marco Rubio: "It is possible to do something that is wrong and not be an impeachable offense and people are throwing that term around so loosely it's lost all meaning." pic.twitter.com/BTHQyySFGq— The Hill (@thehill) September 24, 2019

  11. 11
    Jeffro says:

    The dam done broke.

    Rampell has a take that – while I bristled at first – mostly covers the territory and names names in the right order:

    trumpov isn’t the only person responsible for the demise of American democracy:

    Unindicted co-conspirators in this heartless murder include Republican lawmakers. They have been led by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.), House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) and former House speaker Paul D. Ryan (Wis.), who tolerated massacres of civil rights, of rule of law and of other democratic values and institutions, so long as the party got its federal judges or tax cuts.

    They got lots of help from their colleagues. Even when those colleagues were on record as disapproving of the exact kinds of anti-democratic actions Trump acknowledges taking.

    Recall that in June, Trump told ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos that he’d gladly accept dirt from a foreign power on a political rival, and asserted that all politicians do so. Republican lawmakers flatly condemned Trump’s approach to such foreign-offered “oppo research” and said that they’d go straight to the FBI if anyone ever made such an offer. Senators on the record expressing some version of this view include Majority Whip John Thune (S.D.), Lindsey O. Graham (S.C.), Joni Ernst (Iowa), Lisa Murkowski (Alaska), Cory Gardner (Colo.), Thom Tillis (N.C.), Marco Rubio (Fla.), John Cornyn (Tex.) and Mitt Romney (Utah).

    Fast-forward to today. Now that the hypothetical appears to have come true, they’ve mostly fallen silent. Or worse: They’ve urged the Justice Department to investigate the political rival whom Trump sought a foreign power’s help in sullying, former vice president Joe Biden.

    At best, you have Romney tweeting that “If the President asked or pressured Ukraine’s president to investigate his political rival, either directly or through his personal attorney, it would be troubling in the extreme.” Except that “if” is superfluous, given that Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani acknowledged this way back in May.

    Trump’s lickspittle Cabinet officials are also implicated in the Trump-coordinated assault on democracy.

    On Sunday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo gave multiple interviews in which he suggested that Biden is the real party responsible for interfering in U.S. elections. (Umm, what?) Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin — who has elsewhere praised Trump’s “perfect genes” — likewise dismissed as “speculation” reporting that Trump directed Ukrainian leaders to investigate Biden. Even though Trump then appeared to confirm that “speculation” (and then reversed himself again on Monday).

    Even former defense secretary Jim Mattis, out with a new book on leadership, ducked a question about whether it would be wrong for a president, any president, to ask foreign leaders to investigate political opponents.

    Meanwhile, the media has also dropped the ball.

    I don’t just mean Trump’s preferred propaganda outlet, Fox News. The rest of us have allowed the president to serve as our assignment editor. We spread his smears for him, and too often shy from coverage of any threat to democracy more technical than a tweet. At best, we ask Democrats what would, at last, count as an impeachable offense — but rarely direct such inquiries at Republicans, who, you know, actually stand in the way of a fair impeachment trial.

    Democrats share some blame, too, feckless as they’ve been. They dragged their feet in demanding critical documents, including Trump’s tax returns. They failed to competently question petulant and obstructive witnesses such as former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski. And they frequently seem more interested in attacking one another than holding Trump to account.

    (okay except for that last sentence…I dunno about ‘attacking’, and they ARE in the middle of a weird, wild primary. But good list. Now let’s GO, Dems!)

  12. 12
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This is not going to help.

  13. 13
    Jeffro says:

    @Elizabelle: Patriots all.

    @Mary G:
    Lil’ Marco, we will be coming for you shortly. I actually respect the trumpov dead-enders more than I respect such craven cowardice, such willing refusal to stand for anything (even you own sense of self-preservation)

  14. 14
    cain says:

    It’s super important that all of us who care about the rule of law support the Democratic party in this endeavor. That definitely means that we need to flood the media when they start doing both-siderism which I know they will.

    It’s important that we force the press to acknowledge that the country is in deep trouble.

  15. 15
    prostratedragon says:

    Stepped in a mud hole.
    I got mud all over me.
    I have stepped into a mud hole.
    I got mud all over me.

    I got mud in my nose,
    All in between my toes.
    Mud is in my hair.
    Pretty near everywhere.
    I have stepped into a mud hole.
    I got mud all over me.

    Sure wish I could still find this on line. Malachy Thompson and Africa Brass Ensemble. Would fit the mood; it’s kind of a strut.

  16. 16
    Jeffro says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Let’s please hope they keep talking and reassuring each other on live (recorded!) TV.

  17. 17
    dr. bloor says:

    It will have no other option.

    The judges also would have accepted, “can move forward confident that they finally have enough House Democrats on board to not burn the party to the ground in a failed attempt to impeach.”

  18. 18
    Elizabelle says:

    Yesterday was the first day of autumn. Today: roll out the new product. It’s time.

    Also, from the NY Times: David Leonhardt: Donald Trump vs. the United States of America
    Just the facts, in 40 sentences.

    Sometimes it’s worth stepping back to look at the full picture.

    He has pressured a foreign leader to interfere in the 2020 American presidential election.

    He urged a foreign country to intervene in the 2016 presidential election.

    He divulged classified information to foreign officials.

    He publicly undermined American intelligence agents while standing next to a hostile foreign autocrat.

    He hired a national security adviser who he knew had secretly worked as a foreign lobbyist.

    He encourages foreign leaders to enrich him and his family by staying at his hotels.
    He genuflects to murderous dictators.

    He has alienated America’s closest allies.

    He lied to the American people about his company’s business dealings in Russia.

    He tells new lies virtually every week — about the economy, voter fraud, even the weather.

    But wait. There’s more! A whole middle section. And then the end:

    … He made his fortune partly through wide-scale financial fraud.

    He has refused to release his tax returns.

    He falsely accused his predecessor of wiretapping him.

    He claimed that federal law-enforcement agents and prosecutors regularly fabricated evidence, thereby damaging the credibility of criminal investigations across the country.

    He has ordered children to be physically separated from their parents.

    He has suggested that America is no different from or better than Vladimir Putin’s Russia.

    He has called America a “hellhole.”

    He is the president of the United States, and he is a threat to virtually everything that the United States should stand for.

  19. 19
    patrick II says:

    Elaine Luria is my congresswoman. She was on Rachel tonight and gave a straightforward presentation on placing non-partisan national security above partisanship. I was proud of her. I had called and written her office before asking her to support impeachment, but she has been cautious in this republican leaning district. I will be writing her a note of thanks.

  20. 20
    randy khan says:

    @Mary G:

    “It is possible to do something that is wrong and not be an impeachable offense and people are throwing that term around so loosely it’s lost all meaning.”

    I mean, what are a few felonies between friends?

  21. 21
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    I think Trump is really feeling the walls close in. There’s a photo at the top of the WaPo website right now, taken at the UN today with Pence, Pompeo, Mulvaney, and a few others all with headphones or paying close attention to whomever was speaking.

    But Trump. Trump is blotched and puffy, more blotched and puffy than usual. His hair is more dishevelled than usual. He’s paying no attention to the speaker, and not listening to the translation. He slews his eyes in a way that just screams “paranoia!” And although he’s made angry-face a default expression since he began his campaign in 2015, it’s hard to remember seeing him glower quite as menacingly as he does in this photo. He’s terrified and filled with rage and on the brink of losing whatever grip he has.

    And he brought every bit of it on himself.

  22. 22
    Baud says:

    @Mary G:

    Yes. See Clinton impeachment.

  23. 23
    Jeffro says:

    A note (not that anyone here doesn’t already know this on some level): when this weird trumpov ‘mystique’ or ‘allegiance’ or ‘perceived hold on the GOP’s base’ cracks, it will be absolutely spectacular. And I have no doubt that given the entire party’s utterly craven nature, there will be a race to denounce like nothing we have seen before. Bank on it. And enjoy!

  24. 24
    randy khan says:

    @Elizabelle:

    It’s a fine start for articles of impeachment.

  25. 25
    Baud says:

    @cain:

    Agree. Thank you.

  26. 26
    BlueDWarrior says:

    The issue was always going to be “How do you bridge the gap between getting the more liberal and reform minded House members on board to the more generic and somewhat-conservative members on board.”

    Withholding duely appropriated money in order to extort opposition research out of a legitimate foriegn government and ally would be a good way to do it.

    I would not be surprised if all of the investigations get upgraded to a formal Impeachment inquiry by this time next week.

  27. 27
    jl says:

    @Mary G: That Rubio tweet from Proverbs Two?

  28. 28
    jc says:

    Pelosi and other Dem. leaders need to put Trump on the defensive. She should state before this Thursday that if the whistle-blower’s report is not released on that date, the Impeachment process will start on Friday. Trump does this all the time: threatens to take some drastic action soon, and then when the time comes he changes his story.

    Dem. leaders need to be bluntly accusatory and brutally critical of Trump. They should mercilessly insult him and call him too weak and unfit to win re-election except by cheating.

  29. 29
    Tom Q says:

    A little like the Nixon impeachment: first it moved at a snail’s pace, then in a rush.

    Not suggesting this will end the way Watergate did; there were honest (or at least capable-of-shame) Republicans back then, and they were necessary to bring about Nixon’s full demise. But I believe now impeachment is inevitable. How our current GOPers choose to navigate the Senate trial is up to them, and, I suspect, lose/lose for them.

  30. 30
    Mary G says:

    The leaks are flooding into WaPo:

    Bolton argued to meet with Ukraine’s president and restore funding as a way to curb Russian aggression. Trump for some time was unmoved. He urged Biden probe. Giuliani urged probe. His aides began to worry move was illegal & GOP senators challenged. https://t.co/EiogWIcKBu— Josh Dawsey (@jdawsey1) September 24, 2019

  31. 31
    Barbara says:

    @randy khan: Being the brother in law of a convicted drug dealer gives you personal insight into these sorts of cutting edge legal questions.

  32. 32

    @Adam L Silverman: Pompeo’s part of it too. From a human-rights lawyer, UN special rapporteur –

  33. 33
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    trump, being a master strategerist, is taunting Romney tonight. Granted, it’s not a dumb bet considering how weak Our Willard has been, but maybe he’ll get as mad as he did about the suggestion that he inherited his money

  34. 34
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I read that last night and wrote a comment, though for some reason it never made the cut to be published. But it was to the effect that the entire column read like the bill of particulars against King George III in the Declaration of Independence, and could easily have been prefaced with the sentence: “To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.”

    There wasn’t one thing new in that Leonhardt column, but it’s still quite stunning to see those indictments listed all together, one after another, wave upon wave….

  35. 35
    waspuppet says:

    Trump’s order to withhold aid to Ukraine a week before his July 25 call with Volodymyr Zelensky is likely to answer questions about the motivation for his decision and confirm suspicions on Capitol Hill that Trump sought to leverage congressionally approved aid to damage a political rival.

    Fixed.

  36. 36
    dmsilev says:

    @Mary G: I wonder whether Bolton is one of the leakers. That’d be ironic yet oddly appropriate.

  37. 37
    Jeffro says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Big time. Barr and that acting DNI, too. Mnunchin. Mulvaney.

    By the time we get though the chain of succession, Ben Carson could well be president. LOL (sort of)

  38. 38
    Jeffro says:

    @dmsilev: I bet he is squealing even as we type. The flood of Repubs who are going to open up the next several weeks (months?) is going to be tremendous. This is it.

  39. 39
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Mary G: Rubio is a cowardly piece of shit, but we knew that.

  40. 40

    @Jeffro: Nope. There’s a stop at Speaker of the House.

  41. 41
    Kay says:

    Sounds pretty quid pro quo-ish to me.

    I love that like 14 high ranking Trumpsters eagerly helped him. WTF is wrong with these people? I know none of them know anything but wouldn’t it just seem hinky? Even if you just wandered into meetings off the street?

  42. 42
    dmsilev says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: A 9 month or 1 year Nancy Pelosi caretaker Presidency would be one of the most concentrated doses of schadenfreude the world has ever known.

  43. 43
    Betty Cracker says:

    @cain: Great point! I’m doing my small part by thanking reporters on Twitter when they ask Republicans for comments on Trump’s lawless behavior and haranguing those who mention the bogus allegations against Biden without noting that they have no basis in fact.

  44. 44
    Mary G says:

    @dmsilev:

    If Bolton winds up being the whistleblower, I take back everything I've said about this season's lazy writing. https://t.co/iQcP5NYqFi— Kevin M. Kruse (@KevinMKruse) September 24, 2019

  45. 45
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Yep, as we discussed yesterday. Also, h/t to Jay in the previous thread, the Israelis were involved in this influence op against Ukraine too. None of these private Israeli security and intel companies do anything without the Israeli government blessing off.

  46. 46
    tokyokie says:

    I just wish that any of this would rise to the level of seriousness as lying about a blow job under deposition for a lawsuit bankrolled by political opponents.

  47. 47
    Jeffro says:

    @Elizabelle: I put that on my FB page with a note that half of the ‘charges’ are things that should have been unacceptable in any leader at any level, and the rest are actual, documented crimes.

    Squeal, Repubs, squeal. Both in the ‘stuck pigs’ sense and also in terms of adding to the chorus. The whole country is sick of this crook.

  48. 48
    Mary G says:

    Also, some other news that was shared with me earlier:Internal House whip counts show Pelosi now has the votes for impeachment.— Angry Staffer (@AngrierWHStaff) September 24, 2019

  49. 49
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Narrator: He will not.

  50. 50
    oldgold says:

    What are the chances that in the State Department, DOJ and Intelligence Services we see a significant number of resignations over the next few days?

  51. 51
    Elizabelle says:

    @Jeffro: Exciting times. And thank you for alerting me to the WaPost items (Dem reps and Rampell). First I had heard of them.

    Got to try to get some sleep. Up at O dark hundred for a drive.

  52. 52
    Jeffro says:

    @cain:

    It’s super important that all of us who care about the rule of law support the Democratic party in this endeavor. That definitely means that we need to flood the media when they start doing both-siderism which I know they will.

    Great point! We still have work to do here, people!! Just as soon as we recover from our Tuesday morning hangovers!!! ;)

    NO MORE ‘BOTH SIDES’ ‘OPINIONS DIFFER’ ‘SOME SAY…” BS. Just the facts, snooze media!

  53. 53
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Mary G:

    Tommy Vietor @ TVietor08
    Talking about Trump’s dick at a rally might have been the high point of @marcorubio’s career.

  54. 54
    Elizabelle says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Your comment sounds spot on. Who knows, maybe it did appear after all.

    Just saw the Leonhardt item on some friends’ FB pages. Looks like reading the paper is going to be fun again soon.

  55. 55
    Gravenstone says:

    @Mary G: Fuck, by this point in time Trump breathing is an impeachable offense, So shut your gob, Marco.

  56. 56
    jl says:

    @Tom Q: No links but if you go to Josh Marshall’s twitter right now (11:11 PM EDT Sept 23, 2019) and look over last hour or two you’ll see a lot of stuff happening, Some highlights (edit: so, join TPM to read the blog without all the ads and get the premium content).

    NYT’s Sulzberger says Trump admin refused to protect two US journalists targeted by el Sisi in Egypt,
    Giuliani claims that State Dept sent him a secret mission to Ukraine (yeah… that’s the ticket). Rudy’s a secret agent man, they gave him a number and they took away his name! If it was secret, wonder why it was so widely reported.
    And one link from @joshtpm
    @VeraMBergen
    On his visit to Ukraine, @ChrisMurphyCT said Zelensky “directly” expressed concerns that “the aid that was being cut off to Ukraine by the president was a consequence” of his unwillingness to launch an investigation into the Bidens
    https://twitter.com/VeraMBergen/status/1176320741480046597

    So, Murphy thought it was a good time to say that Ukraine has been soft peddling their side of the story.

    Hate to be cynical, but I wonder if some of the swing state Dem Congresspeople have been reflecting that if Trump is going to bribe and threaten foreign governments to corrupt the election, how to they know it won’t be fixed anyway unless they act to weaken him now. Then, no one wants to be the last to jump on board.

    Everyone hates Trump’s guts.At a certain point, everyone starts leaking dirt. A ship with a fatally damaged hull can list for hours, then tips and sinks, all of a sudden, just like that.

  57. 57
    tokyokie says:

    @dmsilev:

    I wonder whether Bolton is one of the leakers. That’d be ironic yet oddly appropriate.

    Of course Bolton’s one of the leakers. That’s always been his way of doing things. And the true believers der Trumpenführer has gathered in his bunker are too dim to see that unloosing a canon like Bolton could have serious repercussions.

  58. 58
    Millard Filmore says:

    Jason Chaffetz had 8 years of hearings lined up for HRC, had she become president. Impeachment hearings can start any time. No need to even send anything to the senate for Moscow Mitch to sit on. Simply blast away with constant hearings, about anything and everything that comes up.

  59. 59
    Mary G says:

    Pompeo is praying that the rapture happens soon so he can avoid going down with Trump— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) September 24, 2019

  60. 60
    Gravenstone says:

    @Mary G: So, multiple GOP senators knew this extortion was happening, and apparently tepidly pushed back? Names, damnit. They can be the second wave of impeachments.

  61. 61
    dmsilev says:

    @jl:

    NYT’s Sulzberger says Trump admin refused to protect two US journalists targeted by el Sisi in Egypt,

    “Leopard Eating People’s Faces Party” and all of that.

  62. 62
    jl says:

    @Jeffro: ” By the time we get though the chain of succession, Ben Carson could well be president. LOL (sort of) ”

    If they go down through removal or resignation, then it’s Pelosi. I suggested earlier that she might be timing it so she can spend a few months or a year as the first woman president.

  63. 63
    TS (the original) says:

    @Mary G: There has to be a time, before November 20 that a majority of GOP senators will “see the light” & so help me “never trumpers” will say how great they are.

  64. 64
    Marcopolo says:

    Just a note that there is nothing, nada, on the St. Louis Post Dispatch website about any of this. I even looked in the politics section to see if something was lurking below the major stories.

    Anyways, I don’t know what it is like in the rest of the US, but whilst we BJers are seeing signs of a dam bursting in real time most folks in the country (who actually don’t follow the news as closely as say their local sports) probably have little or no clue of what is going on.

    I’ve sent an email out to friends that THIS is the moment to call their Rep & Senators (for most of them that means Senators Blunt (r) and Hawley (r)) to tell them the WB complaint & Ukraine situation means the Trump impeachment process needs to start now. I urge everyone here to do the same. And to tell your friends to tell their friends as well.

    Not holding my breath but keeping my fingers crossed that this has legs through a weeks worth of news cycles–that will be the tell, most stuff gets washed away by new stories within hours or a couple of days at most.

    Have a good night all.

  65. 65
    Chetan Murthy says:

    [superfluous]

  66. 66
    Redshift says:

    @jl:

    If it was secret, wonder why it was so widely reported.

    The only part that was supposed to be secret is that Pompeo supported it, but Giuliani can’t keep his mouth shut.

  67. 67
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Who knows, maybe it did appear after all.

    I don’t think so. I’ve commented previously from time to time, and they always send an email once the comment’s been approved. No email this time.

    Ah well, i’ll just hum another chorus of “FTFNYT.”

    Safe travels at dawn.

  68. 68
    tokyokie says:

    @Kay:

    I love that like 14 high ranking Trumpsters eagerly helped him. WTF is wrong with these people? I know none of them know anything but wouldn’t it just seem hinky? Even if you just wandered into meetings off the street?

    Der Trumpenführer has filled his staff exclusively with blind, sycophantic, and stupid coat handlers. Even the horrible likes of Mattis and Bolton had too much personal integrity to continue doing the jobs they were given. And now that nobody remains to tell him one of his plans is stupid (or, more likely, using bureaucratic maneuvering to skirt the consequences of his ill-conceived ideas), the very stable genius is going ahead with them. He’s going down, he’s taking a huge chunk of the GOP with him, and I hope the rest of the country can stay clear of the whirlpool.

  69. 69
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Not exactly a highly partisan organization in favor of Democrats.

  70. 70
    TS (the original) says:

    @cain:

    when they start doing both-siderism which I know they will

    When they start? They started on Election night 2008 – and are still doing it. The only time they don’t both sides something is when it is an attack on democrats.

  71. 71
    TS (the original) says:

    @Elizabelle: From the paper who did so much to get trump elected & continues to keep him in power. Too little – and way too late.

  72. 72
    Redshift says:

    @Marcopolo:

    Just a note that there is nothing, nada, on the St. Louis Post Dispatch website about any of this. I even looked in the politics section to see if something was lurking below the major stories.

    Newspapers aren’t 24/7 cable channels. (I work at one, though on the tech side, not news.) See what they have tomorrow before you make that judgement.

    Bravo on your emails. That’s what we need to win this.

  73. 73
    dmsilev says:

    @Marcopolo: I just took a quick look at Google News (using an incognito browser to avoid whatever dossier Google has on me). Lead three headlines right now:

    Trump ordered hold on military aid days before calling Ukrainian president, officials say
    President Trump told his acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, to hold back almost $400 million in military aid for Ukraine at least a week before a phone call in
    The Washington Post

    ‘The dam could break’ on impeachment this week
    Impeachment is getting a jump-start. Sure, some intervention — divine, political or otherwise — could still stop the House from voting on the political equivalent …
    NBC News

    House Democrats near ‘tipping point’ on impeachment as Pelosi faces crucial week
    House Democrats are nearing a “tipping point” on impeachment in the wake of the Trump administration blocking a whistleblower complaint’s release to …
    CNN

    It’s getting covered.

  74. 74
  75. 75
    Ruckus says:

    @Baud:
    ¿por que los dos?

  76. 76
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    prove him wrong, Willard, prove him wrong…

    Richard M. Nixon @ dick_nixon
    -I don’t give a shit about Romney. One weak-willed son of a rich man or another.
    -George worked for what he had. George came by his successes and flaws honestly.
    -That is, for all the throats Romney cut in business, I can’t think of one he ever cut in politics. If you don’t come to play, don’t waste my time.

    (no, I don’t think he will, I just find the last point interesting)

  77. 77
    Mary G says:

    @TS (the original): It’ll be like GWB – they just disappeared him, he didn’t say a word for the first Obama term and the Republicans would complain about the Clinton-Obama radicals as if the years 2000-2008 didn’t even exist.

  78. 78
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I don’t know where Boyle has been on impeachment up to know, but I believe he is usually counted among the moderates

    US Rep Brendan Boyle @ RepBrendanBoyle
    I represent more Ukrainian-Americans than any other member of Congress. I’ve introduced more bills and amendments supporting Ukraine than any other member. What Trump has done is sacrifice America’s defense of Europe against Russia. It is deeply unpatriotic. He must be impeached.

  79. 79
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @prostratedragon:

    It’s a huge favourite. I’ve seen it occasionally in other contexts, but it’s especially apt now that things are really moving.

    ETA: Meant to say, thanks for posting it. Saved in my photos for what I’m sure will be ample opportunities to use it.

  80. 80
    Ruckus says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    will be after Thursday unless Trump does something even more outrageous between now and then.

    What are the odds of that? Besides pretty damn good?

  81. 81
    jl says:

    Best timing for starting real action to bring Trump to justice for 2020 is interesting. Might be best to start moving at earliest opportunity so maximum squeeze is put on GOP Congress jerks before their primaries, so they have time to render themselves both hilarious and disgusting to anyone outside their base, and be totally discredited by general election campaign. Trump probably could shoot a person at noon on Fifth Avenue with hundreds of witnesses and vast majority of GOPers in Congress would cover for him until the primaries.

    The Ukraine corruption scandal breaking now is the earliest well timed opportunity.

  82. 82
    Ken says:

    @Ruckus: We are getting into shooting someone on Fifth Avenue territory. Or eating a live puppy on TV.

  83. 83
    Kelly says:

    I called Kurt Schrader’s office to urge him to support impeachment. He has been kinda wait and see. Very quick conversation. The gal that answered the phone said “Yes I’ll pass your request along to the Congressman” and got off the phone. Didn’t wait for my careful list of reasons. Maybe they are getting a lot of calls like mine.

  84. 84
    Marcopolo says:

    @dmsilev: I was not saying the story wasn’t getting covered. Just saying most folks are not news/politics consumers like the folks here. I mean, I check out google news a few times a day but, for example, my mom does not. A lot of people get their news through local outlets, and I am just spitballing that there are probably a lot of local news outlets that aren’t linking this story so we need to keep that in mind expectation-wise.

    And in regards to Redshift’s comment: perhaps there will be a story in the dead tree paper tomorrow morning; however, at this time there is not a single Trump related story on the digital side of the paper. Nothing on the UNGA either. And this is why I stopped my subscription a long time ago.

  85. 85
    Ruckus says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    And he brought every bit of it on himself.

    Yep. Every damn bit, right down on his dumbass head.

  86. 86
    James E Powell says:

    I love the careful language – likely to raise questions & fuel suspicions. The press/media cannot bring themselves to be direct and honest about him.

  87. 87
    CaseyL says:

    Interesting that so many people who should be in prison have their fingerprints all over the Ukrainian extortion.

    Maybe this is the tipping point. I am feeling hopeful for the first time in months.

    (To be fair, I was old enough to follow Watergate, and felt the same enraged frustration with how slowly the story gathered steam, how much obstruction and lying Nixon & Co. kept getting away with, and how apathetic voters were.)

  88. 88
  89. 89
    Mary G says:

    Even the FTFNYT is doing some CYA:

    Wow, these anecdotes from the publisher of the @nytimes https://t.co/iDODZsVPqx pic.twitter.com/rNC3r4r2WQ— Mark Berman (@markberman) September 24, 2019

    The Trump administration refused to help reporters who had pissed off Sisi in Egypt and were about to be arrested.

  90. 90
    Mary G says:

    Remember, this is only Monday, which seems like forever in Trumplandia. #ImpeachTrumpNowNANCY— supernatural (@BeckyResists) September 24, 2019

  91. 91
    dmsilev says:

    @Mary G:

    Remember, this is only Monday

    Infrastructure Week is off to a great start again.

  92. 92
    Ruckus says:

    @Tom Q:
    A bit like Nixon. He was craven and venial as well but also a lot smarter and had the ability to see past his wallet. He may also have had a touch of narcissism but not nearly to the level of trump. I think he mostly liked power. trump thinks he likes power but he’s never really had any so he abuses it massively, also because he’s actually rather stupid.

  93. 93
    Raoul says:

    This from one of Hawaii’s two great senators just now. LOL.

    I mean how do they defend this? Is it gonna just be “aaargh socialism plastic straws campus deep state bleach bit open borders! Leakers! Sanctuary cities! Cheeseburgers! I will get back to you!”— Brian Schatz (@brianschatz) September 24, 2019

  94. 94
    Ruckus says:

    @Ken:
    Neither of which seem to be beneath trump. Other than he’s a chickenshit. It sure wouldn’t be morals that hold him back.

  95. 95
    Mandalay says:

    @Mary G: I haven’t been following this story so apologies if this is all stale news, but from your WaPo link it seems that Sen. Chris Murphy received a first hand account of Trump’s threats from the President of the Ukraine in early September:

    Murphy, who spoke with Zelensky during an early September visit to Ukraine, said Monday that the Ukrainian president “directly” expressed concerns at their meeting that “the aid that was being cut off to Ukraine by the president was a consequence” of his unwillingness to launch an investigation into the Bidens.

    So presumably Schumer, Pelosi et al must have known exactly what Trump did long before the whistleblower story came out?

  96. 96
    Mike in NC says:

    He’s never been more than a motherfucking mobster.

  97. 97
  98. 98
    tokyokie says:

    @CaseyL: I spent the summer of the Nixon crisis on a pipeline barge in the North Sea, eagerly devouring the copy of Time that would arrive in the mail weekly. (Luckily, sorting the mail was one of my responsibilities, so I always got the first look at it.) I kept thinking the weasel was going to wriggle out of the mess, but then the tapes came out, and even conservative Republicans turned against him. (When a delegation of GOP senators went to the White House to urge Nixon to resign, Nixon cited his support in the Senate, to which Goldwater, as I recall, replied, “Mr. President, your supporters couldn’t fill a car.”)

    And then it was over. I remember listening live to Nixon’s abdication speech in the dead of night on BBC radio in a hotel in Edinburgh.

  99. 99
    jl says:

    @Mandalay: The bare bones of the story wasn’t that secret. Giuliani was running around on his ‘secret mission’ followed by some reporters who were regularly filing stories. I don’t think it was ever reported in big audience corporate media outlets though.

    So Democrats may have been getting ready to start serious proceedings for awhile. And we don’t know how much of the supposed Dem intra-caucus squabbles we see in public are Kabuki theater, from Pelosi, to Schumer, to swing state House froshes to AOC. If they had advance info, probably quite a bit of it was Kabuki theater.

  100. 100
    matt says:

    Trump belongs in prison or in front of a firing squad.

  101. 101
    tokyokie says:

    @Ruckus: Now that’s totally unfair. Der Trumpenführer would never eat a live puppy on live TV. Unless it was wrapped up like a Big Mac.

  102. 102
    dww44 says:

    @jl:

    Everyone hates Trump’s guts.At a certain point, everyone starts leaking dirt. A ship with a fatally damaged hull can list for hours, then tips and sinks, all of a sudden, just like that.

    Exactly as the blog owner predicted just a couple of days ago.

  103. 103
    joel hanes says:

    @BlueDWarrior:

    to extort opposition research out of a legitimate foreign government and ally

    It’s actually worse than that, because Hunter Biden had been investigated and no evidence was found.
    This was an extortionate demand that the Ukrainians _manufacture_ some scandal for Trump to use: a demand that they behave corruptly and lie, as Trump certainly would in their place, and clearly expected them to do.

    Trump gets shit on everything he touches.

  104. 104
    jl says:

    @Mary G: If Trumpsters going into deep hide-in-the-bunker mode, access going to disappear no matter what they do. And all the good stuff that moves clicks and paper is going to come from anonymous leakers. But, I may be cynical.

  105. 105
    Mai naem mobile says:

    @Mary G: I am guessing Lil Marco is not talking about a blow job?

  106. 106
    Ruckus says:

    @tokyokie:
    To be honest he probably would never eat a live puppy unless it came in a box with McDs on the side.

  107. 107
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @joel hanes: Yep. I have the same problem every time I hear “Trump tried to extort an investigation”.

    Nope. Trump tried to extort a foreign ally into manufacturing allegations against his likely general election opponent… and if Ukraine didn’t agree and we didn’t protect them, Russia would roll over Ukraine.

    It’s that simple. “Make up stuff about my opponent or Putin gets your whole country”.

  108. 108
    jl says:

    @Mandalay: And IIRC, the story of a whistle blower filing something about a very high ranking Trump official and urgent intelligence matter has been known for about a month or so. People who read, say, for example, TPM, regularly knew something was up and those who subscribe knew even more. I don’t think that was ever reported in big corporate media either. Too sensitive until enough info came out to give them ‘permission’ and had a way to do that partisan balance dance.

  109. 109
    Tom Q says:

    @jl: It’s long been a theory among Pelosi supporters that her “I don’t want to do it /don’t make me” stance was just a pose — that she knew it would come, but wanted to appear as thoughtful/reasonable as she could leading up to it to persuade the fence-sitters (in the House and the country) that she was being diligent.

    We don’t know if 1) this theory is correct, and this current fact is just the pretext for finally moving; 2) she knew something like this was in the wind, and she was just waiting for it to emerge; or 3) she was genuinely opposed to impeachment, and this truly came from the blue to change her calculus.

    I’m not sure we’ll ever know which is true; possibly some combination. But, whichever way it happened, the moment has finally arrived.

  110. 110
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @Raoul: That’s exactly how they’ll justify it.

    “Ragggh liberals bad!!!”

  111. 111
    joel hanes says:

    @Mandalay:

    So presumably Schumer, Pelosi et al must have known exactly what Trump did long before the whistleblower story came out?

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that we still do not know that the whistleblower’s complaint refers to the Ukraine/Biden thing at all. Still might be two separate sets of high crimes.

  112. 112
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Mary G:

    The Trump administration refused to help reporters who had pissed off Sisi in Egypt and were about to be arrested.

    “My favorite dictator.”

  113. 113
    jl says:

    @Tom Q: You are right, we don’t know for sure. Now that I reflect that Giulian’s clownish and sinister antics have been reported for many months and it was known he was trying to gin up some scheme in Ukraine, and existence of a whistle blower claim has been known, though very vague about what it was, for a month or six weeks, 1) and 2) are more plausible now that we know far more about the botched Trump-Ukraine criminal conspiracy. I wasn’t claiming more than that.

  114. 114
    Mary G says:

    @Mandalay: I hadn’t heard it from Murphy before and would not be at all surprised of this all being carefully orchestrated even if the Democrats seem like a herd of cats. They gave him a lot of rope and being who he is, he hanged himself. Maybe.

  115. 115
    jl says:

    @joel hanes: Yes, thanks. We don’t even know if the Trump-Ukraine conspiracy is the main issue in the whistle blower report. There were eight instances of disturbing behavior, and at least some of them directly involved intelligence matters.

    And as Adam and a few commenters pointed out, stuff on the attempt to extort Ukrainian government for a Biden smear probably came from Trumpsters in a vain attempt to get ahead of the story in case the even more disastrous stuff came out.

    So, there is almost certainly more, and much worse stuff, and we are not sure how they are related. The part of it currently in the news is so lurid and dangerous our democracy, it is easy to forget that this may not even be the main show.

  116. 116
    CaseyL says:

    @tokyokie: I think I went to school as usual that day, and watched the resignation on the nightly news. It was a good day. Trump and half his Administration (including Pence, please FSM) also resigning would be an even better one.

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    The Trump administration refused to help reporters who had pissed off Sisi in Egypt and were about to be arrested.

    And yet the FTFNYT continues to handle him with kid gloves. Fuck ’em.

  117. 117
    cain says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I think Trump is really feeling the walls close in. There’s a photo at the top of the WaPo website right now, taken at the UN today with Pence, Pompeo, Mulvaney, and a few others all with headphones or paying close attention to whomever was speaking.

    I don’t think this is a proper measure. I want to see his sycophants look that way. It is his loyalists that need to panic not him.

  118. 118
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    So, I’ve become convinced that impeachment has to happen now, no matter what. Even if the media tries to both sides it. Even if the Senate does not convict. We have to go after and apply pressure to the media and the GOP if/when they do the above. Not only is it the right thing to do, I think the timing is right. We have to seize control of the narrative and slam Trump et al over the head with it

    I’ve realized that things can’t go on as they are now and have to end no matter what happens. Trump has demonstrated that he won’t fight fair will try to rig the 2020 election. We need to use impeachment most of all to not only hold Trump and the GOP accountable but also damage the hell out of them

  119. 119
    cain says:

    @dmsilev:
    Actually, I hope not as that would galvanize Trump supporters and will likely push them to support Trump because it will be spun as a betrayal and Republican voters if anything are loyal to the movement.

  120. 120
    West of the Rockies says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Has anyone yet referred to the Florida senator as Micro Rubio (or have I just coined that)?

  121. 121
    cain says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    @cain: Great point! I’m doing my small part by thanking reporters on Twitter when they ask Republicans for comments on Trump’s lawless behavior and haranguing those who mention the bogus allegations against Biden without noting that they have no basis in fact.

    We might be capricious on our support for Dems, but we can definitely get behind support against a traitor and helping to expose the kind of shit that our President has been doing to the press and reject “both-siderism”.

  122. 122
    MobiusKlein says:

    @Tom Q:
    4) Nancy takes her job as “Speaker of the House” seriously.
    Not speaker of the democrats, but as the 2rd in line of succession to the Presidency. What she does in the role as Speaker needs to be done with an eye on the long term future of the US, not just the weekly news cycle.

  123. 123
    Mandalay says:

    @joel hanes:

    I believe that we still do not know that the whistleblower’s complaint refers to the Ukraine/Biden thing at all.

    An excellent point.

    If you actually dig into the stories from WaPo, NYT et al, while the whistleblower was alleged to be concerned about Trump’s dealings with Ukraine, it’s like nailing jelly to the wall when you try to find out exactly how the media know that to be the case.

    For example, see “Whistle-Blower Complaint Is Said to Involve Trump and Ukraine” (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/us/politics/intelligence-whistle-blower-complaint-trump.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage) for volatile assertions with no named sources.

    I wouldn’t call the reporting “fake news”, and I suspect that the whistle blower’s concern (or one of them) probably is related to financial payments to Ukraine, but the media is reporting this as fact when it is based entirely on unnamed sources as far as I can tell.

  124. 124
    joel hanes says:

    @Mary G:

    They gave him a lot of rope

    They threatened and prodded him irregularly, from many sides, in many ways.
    Predictably, his reactions became steadily more unhinged.

  125. 125
    Calouste says:

    Btw, there will be more fun tomorrow as the Supreme Court in the UK will release its verdict about whether the prorogation off Parliament was legal.

  126. 126
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Calouste: We’ll expect commentary from Tony Jay, of course. :)

  127. 127
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Calouste:

    What do you think the odds are on the UK Supreme Court ruling the prorogation illegal? And if so, BoJo going, “the Supreme Court has made it’s decision. Now let them enforce it!”? Seems about his speed

  128. 128

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: Remember BoJo isn’t the Head of State, there’s this elderly lady that lives in a palace.

  129. 129
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:
    I was joking more than anything. I’d expect BoJo to try something like that if he could. It would fit with his prior, authoritarian, behavior

  130. 130
    Calouste says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Also, Johnson doesn’t have a majority in the House of Commons, he can be voted out any time. Just depends on whether a number of ex-Tories are willing to vote with Labour.

    I personally think the ruling is going to be a wishy-washy lawyerly “it’s not right but it’s not really really illegal” kind of thing, but IANAL. Or a barrister. Or a Queen’s Counsel.

  131. 131
    NotMax says:

    @West of the Rockies

    Only in the high school locker room.

    (rimshot)

  132. 132
    smike says:

    @randy khan:
    Sure. I mean, Clinton had sex, donchaknow? Gotta keep our perspective, right?

  133. 133
    Tom Q says:

    @MobiusKlein: That’s a very interesting point. Now that it appears Pence is also up to his neck in this Ukraine thing, we have to consider the possibility that a serious impeachment inquiry could lead to at least the theoretical possibility of a Pelosi (interim) presidency. That would of course evoke howls from the deranged right-wing universe, but even some mushy-middle people might feel a bit queasy about the prospect if Nancy were running a ruthless campaign to bring it about. This way, no one serious can accuse her of having Macchiavelli-ed her way to it.

    Note: I don’t actually think Pelosi will ever get to be president. Even if Trump/Pence guilt is tight as a drum, at least 34 Pubs will pretend not to see it, knowing Pelosi would be the outcome.

    Funny, too: if we were to somehow get to President Pelosi, you can bet the righties would scream it was Undoing the Public Will — people who’ve been lecturing us for two-plus years about the genius of the founding fathers and their electoral college. The line of succession, I’m thinking, won’t strike them as such genius, when it’s their ox being gored.

  134. 134
    pattonbt says:

    Well, Trump could look at it this way if impeachment happens…he’d be one up on Obama by at least one measure.

  135. 135
    dopey-o says:

    @Tom Q: part of Pelosi’s foot-dragging charade has been to avoid feeding the inevitable right-wing meme “Yon Nancy hast that lean and hungry look.”

    Being #3 in line for the Oval Office too easily lets the MAGAts declare “Cui Bono my ass! Pelosi just wants to be President!” Isn’t that want any R speaker would do if the roles were reversed?

  136. 136
    joel hanes says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    [VVA is a propaganda outlet]

    So was the facebook account “I Love America”, with a millioni followers
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/23/facebook-removes-pro-trump-i-love-america-page-that-was-run-by-ukrainians/

  137. 137
    TS (the original) says:

    @MobiusKlein:

    Nancy takes her job as “Speaker of the House” seriously.

    I would so much like to see her inherit the job of President – probably because of what it would do to trump & pence.

  138. 138
    hervevillechaizelounge says:

    @CaseyL:

    I was too young for Watergate and I’m only now finding out that everything I was taught in school about the investigation was a lie.

    Deep Throat wasn’t a patriot; he was an embittered shitweasel who got passed over for a promotion. He gave so few fucks about the Constitution he participated—and was convicted for—his role in COINTELPRO.

    Bob Woodward isn’t a great journalist; Mark Felt gave him the information because they were friendly and Woodward printed it. He’s always been a glorified stenographer for the ruling class.

    The gross myth-making around Watergate makes me wonder what kind of bullshit narrative the media will construct about the Trump regime.

  139. 139

    @hervevillechaizelounge: I’m old enough to remember Watergate quite well, I think you’re being a bit too cynical. Some of the folk in the narrative did have self interest, such as Mark Felt; that worked to shed light on Nixon’s crimes. As far as Woodward goes… you have to remember that the Washington Post was the company paper for a company town and Woodward was at the bottom of that barrel. He had a good story fall into his lap and it made him famous. Fame, many times, does not improve one’s craft.

    ETA: “All the President’s Men” was probably the start of the ‘reporters writing books’ concept that rots our current journalism.

  140. 140
    smike says:

    Whew! This thread…

    I think I need a cigarette.

  141. 141
    piratedan says:

    @dopey-o: I believe that’s a huge factor on Pelosi’s “reluctance” to push for impeachment or to be seen as leading the charge for it. In this media environment, it is highly likely that this would have quickly evolved from being about Trump unfit for office and instead cast about Pelosi’s unbridled political ambition. Hell, all you have to do is watch the GOP media minions descend from Witch Mountain spreading the approved talking points about the daily scandals du juor to even “liberal bastions” like MSNBC as they start off every cycle with putting the story in the GOP approved framework until additional reports disprove them and we have to recycle thru the same fucking debunking and refutation of their lies every damn day. Each day, we watch them giving the GOP POV agency until they are proven to be a pack of lies at worst or painfully elaborate misrepresentations of the truth, at best. You make one mistake as a Dem and it casts aspersions on your character for the rest of your days, for the GOP, every day is groundhog day as they start each day unsullied and unstained with the previous day’s misdeeds already forgiven if not forgotten.

  142. 142
    NotMax says:

    @hervevillechaizelounge

    Woodward and Bernstein didn’t print anything. What saw print rested with Ben Bradlee (and ultimately with Katherine Graham). Bradlee was a rigorous and scrupulous newspaperman who in unprecedented circumstances maintained standards such as holding off printing (or even spiking stories) without corroboration. Both he and Graham clearly recognized the differences between news and accusation, between reporting and having an axe to grind, between an adversarial press and an antagonistic one, qualities which have atrophied (but, happily, still not quite died out) in the world of journalism since.

  143. 143
    NotMax says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA

    Subjective opinion but I’d put it earlier, with Theodore White’s The Making of the President series, beginning in 1960, perhaps especially the outsize impact of the tome about 1968.

  144. 144
    rikyrah says:

    @jc:
    👏👏👏👏

    Yes.

  145. 145
    rikyrah says:

    @Gravenstone:
    I want the Senators named too.

    Name them👏👏👏

  146. 146

    @rikyrah: Moscow Mitch, Trump’s Bitch.

  147. 147
    NotMax says:

    @rikyrah

    Mind if I ask what that image is supposed to be? Old eyes and all I can make out is what might be either a jaundiced monkey face or a mutant coconut.

    Then again probably 99% of emojis look like blobs to me; emojis don’t display the same (or sometimes at all) on everyone’s system so I generally ignore them so as to try to avoid miscommunication.

  148. 148
    Spanky says:

    I don’t see impeachment getting through the House. As soon as it looks imminent I expect the Cabinet to whip out the 25th Amendment in a desperate attempt to save their own hides.

  149. 149
    rikyrah says:

    @NotMax:
    Hands clapping👏👏

  150. 150
    Mohagan says:

    @NotMax: I think they are applauding hands, used as a sign of approval.

  151. 151
    Gvg says:

    Yes, one of the complications of impeachment actually working is the Speaker is leading a charge that can get them the Presidency if the VP is implicated. Nancy has to avoid that appearance. Republicans would not have bothered.

  152. 152
    WaterGirl says:

    This thread gives me hope.

  153. 153
    Alien Radio says:

    @Spanky: This is where I’m thinking, will the cabinet invoke the 25th trying to cut trump and the impeachment loose and save Pence? It’s electoral suicide as the republican party is the Turmp Party, are they gonna resent the republicans for betraying the god emperor (even if Mike Pence would actually serve those voters interests better since he can actually follow orders)? the interests of the republican elite and voters diverge at this point, The calculation is that they can get Pence to the next election intact or merely dinged rather than risk Pence getting Impeached as well for certain if trump doesn’t go. My money is on the cabinet invoking the 25th.

  154. 154
    Aleta says:

    Why is Giuliani still running around free and unfettered by a summons or a subpoena or speeding tickets or at least something?

  155. 155
    jl says:

    @piratedan: I don’t know whether standards have degraded or not. People are forgetting that the anonymous source is not the sole evidence for the Ukraine extortion scheme. For example, Giuliani’s trips around Europe for almost a year clearly had something to do with ginning up a smear on Biden. I think the problem is that the now the big media is reluctant to print stories until they can fit them into their economic and political business model.

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