What Can Be Done About the Whistleblower

If AG Barr and the DNI continue to cover for Trump, what can be done? I really don’t know what you do when the executive Branch just chooses to ignore the legislative branch, particularly when the Judicial branch is feckless and corrupt.

I also wonder what it is going to finally take to get the Republicans to turn on Trump. The thing about this that surprises me is how well they have all been kept or stayed in line. Senators and congressmen have TREMENDOUS egos, and Trump has basically kept them in check through threats and intimidation, so I’d wager there are more than a few Republican Senators who would turn on Trump in a NY minute if they thing the tide has turned. It would not surprise me if useless cuck Lindsey Graham is just dying to fuck Trump over the moment he thinks it is safe to do so. Same with human simulation Ted Cruz, and many others.

The other thing is that the only thing holding Trump up is this line of Senators. If they abandon him, the entire facade is coming down. Guys like Trump are paper tigers (there’s a reason they call the show House of Cards)- they all are. They know what they have done, they know what happens to them if they lose absolute control, so they do whatever they can to maintain control because they understand the consequences. They’re equal parts sociopaths and adrenaline junkies, and enjoy the highwire act. But when the fall comes, it is quick and hard.

I mean, you don’t have to go to deep into the history books to find examples- what was it, four days for Nicolae Ceaușescu to be in total control to being strung up in public? I mean, it feels like a long time for the victims who suffered in silence for decades, but how long did it take from Epstein to go from leaving for a European vacation to hanging from a bedsheet in a NY jail?

I was thinking about this when looking at Netanyahu, another petty tyrant with a long history of criminal offenses that are kept at bay only as long as he is in power. I bet he is willing to do anything, including blowing up Israel, to maintain complete control. Because he knows the moment he is not longer in power, he is completely fucked and nothing will keep the prosecutors and his long list of political enemies away.

Back to the point- what can be done? I do think when Trump finally goes down, it’s going to be over in a blink of an eye and we won’t really comprehend how it happened for years after.






228 replies
  1. 1

    I think the main thing Congress can do is to provide a safe route for the whistleblower to come straight to them, rather than forcing him to go through an intermediary who can be blocked by the person he’s blowing the whistle on.

  2. 2
    grubert says:

    That the Age of Trump might be forgotten is an unpleasant thought.. you might be right.

    Since his “election” I thought the only possible good to come of this is we might get a relatively low cost lesson in what a dictator looks like.. and it might help us avoid a genuinely dangerous one for perhaps a generation or so..

  3. 3
    TenguPhule says:

    I also wonder what it is going to finally take to get the Republicans to turn on Trump.

    Nothing. Absolutely nothing will break them off from Trump because they know in their bones that if he goes down, the entire party comes crashing down right behind him.

    They will live and die together till the end.

  4. 4
    mattH says:

    I also wonder what it is going to finally take to get the Republicans to turn on Trump. The thing about this that surprises me is how well they have all been kept or stayed in line. Senators and congressmen have TREMENDOUS egos, and Trump has basically kept them in check through threats and intimidation, so I’d wager there are more than a few Republican Senators who would turn on Trump in a NY minute if they thing the tide has turned. It would not surprise me if useless cuck Lindsey Graham is just dying to fuck Trump over the moment he thinks it is safe to do so. Same with human simulation Ted Cruz, and many others.

    I think part of this is that they know Trump has a read on the Republican Base they cannot take the chance he turns the base on them. It’s Eric Cantor all over again. They created this tiger, rode it to power, and now have no choice but to ride it out. The Republican Party in it’s current state can’t die soon enough. Thing I am most afraid of is that it doesn’t die.

  5. 5
    grubert says:

    @Roger Moore:

    I think the whistleblower is themselves unwilling to testify to Congress. Is that not the case?

    He/she first went to the Inspector General, who said to Congress you shall go.. and then he/she got cold feet.. that’s the story I heard.

  6. 6
    TenguPhule says:

    we might get a relatively low cost lesson in what a dictator looks like

    Relatively speaking, nuclear holocaust across the earth is low cost compared to being engulfed by the Sun.

  7. 7
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    I think candidates running for president need to pledge to prosecute Barr and his henchmen for obstruction and perjury.

  8. 8
    TenguPhule says:

    @mattH:

    Thing I am most afraid of is that it doesn’t die.

    This is why God invented flamethrowers.

  9. 9
    JanieM says:

    Good point, John Cole. Part of the problem is that those senators, starting with MoscowMitch, are in a somewhat similar position. Okay, it’s not as stark or as clearcut as with Trump because they’re a collection and not a single wannabe autocrat, but they do have to figure out how to let him be brought down without being brought down themselves. It’s tricky.

    Edited for clarity.

  10. 10
    jl says:

    @Roger Moore: Seems that many people in IC are willing to put out anonymous leaks. So, I think enough will leak out so we know enough details to understand what Trump’s done, unless Barr ID’s them in time to shut them down. Not sure how he’ll do that when looks like multiple people willing to leak.

    As for GOP Congressional support for Trump, I think one and only one thing will make them turn on Trump: the electoral prospects of staying with him are worse than of turning on him.

    @JanieM: I agree. That is the whole issue. So absolutely nothing will change until after GOP primaries. Except thought comes to mind that some of them are probably compromised.

  11. 11
    TenguPhule says:

    but how long did it take from Epstein to go from leaving for a European vacation to hanging from a bedsheet in a NY jail?

    I thought we were still pretending he committed suicide?

  12. 12
    B.B.A. says:

    The GOP won’t turn on Trump until he’s dead or comatose.

  13. 13
    piratedan says:

    The hardest part for me to reconcile among all of this is the apparent cohesiveness of the GOP throughout this entire process… I have to figure some are simply in it for the grift, some of them are being blackmailed, some are drunk on power, some of them are simply what we could characterize as being evil, yet, that strangely doesn’t account for everyone. There are some that have shown that they do have souls from time to time and I wonder what is actually keeping them in line, people like McSally or even Murkowski, others are write-offs as human beings (Cotton, Imhofe, Cruz come immediately to mind, but you could put a good number in this category).

    I also wonder with the amount of blood in the water, that the major newspapers are directly guiding the framing and narratives of the stories being told as opposed to really digging into the corruption, it scares me as to the reach and depth of how corrupt those that are supposed to be our sentinels actually are.

  14. 14
    hells littlest angel says:

    For the longest time I thought it would be Melania in the Lincoln Bedroom with the rat tail comb, but it’s probably been a very long time since she was in the Lincoln Bedroom.

    But seriously, he has small but significant core of die-hard supporters amongst the Republican base of racists, misogynists and all-around shit-heads. And in the Senate, the only thing that matters to Republicans is what they have to do to get re-elected. So we may have to rely on hounding him until he develops an eating disorder has a stroke.

  15. 15
    Baud says:

    The thing about this that surprises me is how well they have all been kept or stayed in line. 

    This doesn’t surprise me at all.

  16. 16
    TenguPhule says:

    human simulation Ted Cruz

    Coded in java. And not very well at that.

  17. 17
    jl says:

    @Baud: Baud 2020! knows this personally from the undying loyalty of his base.

  18. 18

    I think this is right. Once they calculate that it’s no longer in their interest to suck Tяump’s ass, they’ll throw him over in a flash.

    The only thing we can’t know is how long it’ll take them to reach that conclusion. What’s keeping them in line is the base. They’ll swallow anything Tяump gives them, and a lot of them will go to their graves swearing that the shit they got was lobster thermidor.

    A lot of them will, but not all of them. I think a good many got spooked for a while nine months ago with the shutdown. As random dumbfuck who let herself get quoted by name Crystal Minton said, he isn’t hurting the people he needs to be hurting.

    That really upset some of them. My guess is that most of them crawled abjectly back up Donald Tяump’s ass once the shutdown ended, but some of them aren’t going to take his shit forever. A lot of them have no limit to what they’ll happily take, but some of them will deal themselves out of the game at some point. Some already have.

    The real question is how many giving up on Individual One before senators coldly calculate that it’s safe to bail out and turn on Tяump. Once they begin to cross that line, it’s all going to happen in a blink.

    I don’t know whether selling the country out is what nudges the critical share of his base to walk away, since selling out the country won’t directly fuck them over.

    How fucking sad is that?

  19. 19
    TenguPhule says:

    @piratedan:

    The hardest part for me to reconcile among all of this is the apparent cohesiveness of the GOP throughout this entire process

    I believe Ben Franklin coined it as “We must hang together or we shall certainly hang seperately”

    And the probable prospect of being summarily executed the moment they lose power must do wonders for their powers of concentration.

  20. 20
    TenguPhule says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    I think a good many got spooked for a while nine months ago with the shutdown. As random dumbfuck who let herself get quoted by name Crystal Minton said, he isn’t hurting the people he needs to be hurting.

    I submit that this shows the exact opposite. They’re not spooked, they’re impatient that he’s not targeting the right people enough.

  21. 21
    grubert says:

    @TenguPhule:
    You’re just a ray of sunshine, ain’t ya?

    FYI, I frequently skip over your comments, as many threads are half you..
    too much of one voice, and too much futility to bother with.

  22. 22
    RP says:

    Until right-wing media dumps trump, no republican will turn on trump. BTW, right-wing media will NEVER turn on trump…

  23. 23
    zhena gogolia says:

    It was a firing squad in Romania, not hanging. I was in Moscow when it happened and saw the bodies of him and his wife on teevee.

    It isn’t a cause for euphoria, I’m afraid.

  24. 24
    Mike in DC says:

    What will/would it take? Probably a recession, particularly one where it’s clearly his fault. If the Rs are looking at further erosion in the House, losing their majority in the Senate, and losses in the state legislatures and governorships in the crucial 2020 election, they won’t peel away from him immediately, but first the sotto voce passive aggressive backstabbing will commence, and a handful of prominent Rs will find choice spots here and there to criticize 45. If it looks like Trump is headed for an epic landslide defeat, they will begin to criticize and disavow him publicly. Once he’s defeated, they’ll all turn into Simon Peter.

  25. 25
    TenguPhule says:

    @grubert:

    You’re just a ray of sunshine, ain’t ya?

    I used to be. Back when we weren’t a lawless banana republic heading full speed towards civil breakdown.

  26. 26
    Brachiator says:

    I also wonder what it is going to finally take to get the Republicans to turn on Trump

    Nothing. He is exactly what they have been looking for. They knew what he was when he entered their primary and insulted each of the conventional GOP candidates. They could have stopped him cold then. But the offer he made them was too good to refuse.

    A significant portion of the GOP is comfortable being the party of plutocrats. And Trump has cleverly sold himself to a good chunk of the citizens as a rich man who understands wealth and power, but who devotes his powers for the benefit of the ordinary citizen. He is a classic tyrant. His supporters willingly destroy democracy to get what they think they want. But of course they are served up to the whims of the plutocrats.

    As a wise man once said, never give a sucker an even break. Trump has both the GOP leadership and his base thoroughly fooled.

    The GOP can’t let go. It’s up to the rest of us to end this madness by voting Trump out of office.

  27. 27
    piratedan says:

    @TenguPhule: sorry man, that just not how Dems roll, do I feel vindictive, yes… yes I do. Based on your many posts, I believe you may even feel more so. The thing is, until I see Dems play hard ball, then I will believe it. I think that one of the unanticipated effects of this administration is the overwhelming sense of fatigue that they engender and I can see a large number of people that just want to move the fuck on. For me, that comes with the thought that it would be easier to do so if they were all given fair trials and sent to prison, but now you’re talking about running their crimes up against a judiciary that they’ve been busy stacking against this so called rainy day.

  28. 28
    Millard Filmore says:

    I will jump in here with my suspicions: The intelligence services of Russia pulled a boatload of incriminating emails out of the RNC servers before the 2016 elections. Lessor offenders bailed out of political activity soon after that. Jason Chaffetz, Reince Priebus, and a few others. No one at the upper levels of the Republican Party has clean hands, but some jumped ship and kept quiet. Maybe to spend a few more years at home with family before the criminal investigations start. The ones that bailed are the level of offenders to get fines and community service. The rest, well, China would know how to deal with big-wigs like that.

    Every Republican in national leadership position, Congress, Cabinet, RNC, etc. is totally dirty and compromised. The spectacle of the Corey Lewandowski hearings in the House shows that ALL national Republicans are aware of the coverup and actively working to interfere in any investigation. There is no way any of them can close their eyes tight enough to claim innocence.

    When this breaks, with a Democratic congress and president the national Republican party organization will be decapitated to several layers down. I do not see both the USA and the Republican party surviving this crisis.

  29. 29
    TenguPhule says:

    Ben Carson made dismissive comments about transgender people in internal meeting, according to staff

    I’m so old I remember when this kind of thing used to be a scandal capable of forcing people to resign in shame.

  30. 30

    I also wonder what it is going to finally take to get the Republicans to turn on Trump.

    The Republicans will turn on Trump when they think he’s hurting their chances of reelection (including the primary) and not a nanosecond earlier.

  31. 31
    Gin & Tonic says:

    I often think of Ken McElroy, who was a notorious bully in a small town in Missouri. Indicted numerous times, never convicted, he threatened and terrorized his neighbors for years, until one day he went to the bar in the center of town, had a couple of drinks, and went back out to his truck where he was shot dead. Broad daylight, center of town, shot from at least two different firearms. Nobody saw a thing. 40+ potential witnesses (it was the middle of the day) and nobody had any idea who shot him. The murder was never solved.

    I am, of course, not recommending any violent action against anyone, just pointing out how quickly and completely circumstances may change.

  32. 32
    TenguPhule says:

    @piratedan: My fear is that its not going to be an organized political party, just a lot of very very angry people who no longer care about obeying failed institutions. We are one bad economic crash and six meals away from the Bad Place.

  33. 33
    Mnemosyne says:

    @piratedan:

    I think that all of them — every Republican Senator — has been shown evidence that their campaign accepted Russian money and they could be personally prosecuted for it.

    I really think that’s the fear that’s keeping them glued together — the knowledge that they’re all guilty and have to protect each other or else they’re all going down.

    Some of them may even have convinced themselves that it’s “for the good of the country” that no one ever finds out how deep the rot goes. But once the rot goes deep enough, you can no longer control the collapse when it inevitably happens.

  34. 34
    TS (the original) says:

    @Millard Filmore: Would love to think you are right – I just see the GOP winning the WH just a few years after Nixon resigned in disgrace. I have no idea what it takes to turn people off believing the GOP is the party of free enterprise and wonderment. The GOP understands economics. The GOP won’t give your money to those who do not deserve it. The GOP has the right to rule – the law is for the little people to obey.

    The media would have hung, drawn and quartered a democratic President who acted like trump. Non stop criticism of President Obama for playing gold & taking vacations – trump is at work a couple of hours on days that don’t end with a y – yet every word & every tweet is endlessly reported as trump doing his job.

    As a young woman I was overcome by the wonder of the oral contraceptive becoming available – if I was a young woman today I would be looking at the disaster of living in the world that the GOP and the SCOTUS have mapped out for me.

  35. 35

    @Mike in DC:

    they’ll all turn into Simon Peter.

    Hmmm, don’t know him.

  36. 36
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Millard Filmore:

    Every Republican in national leadership position, Congress, Cabinet, RNC, etc. is totally dirty and compromised.

    I agree. They’re sticking together because they’re all culpable and would go to jail for a long, long time.

    That’s the other reason they’re stacking the courts — so they can fuck with the trials when they happen and prevent justice.

  37. 37
    Another Scott says:

    Audi Cornish interviewed Rep. Adam Schiff this afternoon (no transcript yet).

    The tone of the interview was rather combative, but then, near the end she asked him (very roughly):

    Cornish: Trump has given up numerous secrets to foreign leaders without consequence: He outed the Israeli spy embedded with ISIS to Russia; He told Kim about how the US was watching his (mumble); He tweeted out a spy satellite picture. And nothing happened. What’s the point of making a big deal about this now and what are you going to do about it?

    My jaw dropped.

    Schiff had a good answer. Several things that Congress can do, a big one is the power of the purse (deny the DNI a budget or the ability to reprogram funds until he complies, etc.), and a lot more. No Sergeant At Arms arrests, though…. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  38. 38

    @Another Scott:

    No Sergeant At Arms arrests, though

    Obviously a squish then.

  39. 39
    Martin says:

    The law says that the whistleblower can go directly to congress and bypass the IG, provided the IG is informed that they are taking this step.

  40. 40
    TenguPhule says:

    @TS (the original):

    Non stop criticism of President Obama for playing gold

    Bling?

  41. 41
    TenguPhule says:

    @Another Scott:

    , a big one is the power of the purse (deny the DNI a budget or the ability to reprogram funds until he complies, etc.),

    The House no longer has this power since Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump decided that rules are for other people to follow.

  42. 42
    Mary G says:

    WaPo says whistleblower was talking about Ukraine.

    Atkinson made clear that he disagreed with a lawyer for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, who had contradicted the inspector general and found that the whistleblower complaint did not meet the statutory definition of an urgent concern because it involved a matter not under the DNI’s jurisdiction.

    Atkinson told lawmakers he disagreed with the lawyer’s analysis — meaning he felt the matter was under the DNI’s purview — and also that it was urgent “in the common understanding of the word,” the person said.

  43. 43

    @TenguPhule: Spending originates in the House.

  44. 44
    Ruckus says:

    @JanieM:

    but they do have to figure out how to let him be brought down without being brought down themselves. It’s tricky.

    Problem is that what will bring down dipshit will take down all the dipshits. They are different in degree, not in kind. They do know as several people have stated that if one falls, the house of shitty cards their power is built on will all fall. They have been playing the all for one, one for all card for a long time, most of my life in fact. What we are seeing is the culmination of that “game.” Read history of most governments/kingdoms whatever that tried to be too narrow, too few hands in the cookie jar, and they all went down the hard way and went down hard. Even in countries with political parties, sooner or later, when one gets way too big for it’s britches, it tumbles. It’s always ugly and many get hurt that shouldn’t. Why should this time be different?

  45. 45
    Quinerly says:

    @Mary G: McCabe is on CNN analyzing it right now. Good segment.

  46. 46
    low-tech cyclist says:

    If the Democrats won’t do anything meaningful about Trump, it’s kinda pointless to talk about the GOP abandoning him. Trump using our tax dollars and military might to extort Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden was already in my top three things to impeach Trump over – told the phone answerer at my Congressman’s office exactly that last week. (Babies in cages, and obstruction of justice per Mueller, are the other two) – so this just makes it just that much bigger a deal.

    This is so deep into impeachment territory, the Dems should be able to practically fall over the goal line. Instead, they’re calling time out, then taking a knee. When will Republicans turn on Trump? When the Dems make them feel threatened. When will that be? In the year 2525, I’m starting to think.

  47. 47

    @TenguPhule:

    I’m so old I remember when this kind of thing used to be a scandal capable of forcing people to resign in shame.

    I remember when that kind of thing was a scandal capable of forcing Democrats to resign, but I don’t think it has ever been seen as a scandal by Republicans.

  48. 48
    Redshift says:

    The situation with GOP officials and Trump is in some ways similar to the general electorial situation for the party over the past couple of decades. The ones of them who aren’t idiots know that demographics are moving steadily against them, and they need to appeal to a broader pool of voters. But doing that will turn off a significant chunk of their current base, and things would get worse before they (maybe) get better, and they might not get better until after the careers of the current crop. And there more they maintain power through vote suppression and cheating, the worse the path back gets.

    Similarly with Trump (leaving aside the not insignificant portion of them who are bigoted sociopaths and are fine with what he’s doing.) From the “private grumblings” we hear about, they know he’s terrible, but the only way to go back up is to go way down. Any of them who speak out will probably not change anything, and will get destroyed professionally. They can console themselves that they might have the country and even the party, but not in a time frame when they’ll personally benefit, and let’s face it, none of them are that selfless or patriotic.

  49. 49
    TS (the original) says:

    @TenguPhule: Yea – that typo would better suit trump

  50. 50
    TS (the original) says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    Spending originates in the House.

    And trump declares a national emergency and moves money to where he wants it. The rules don’t apply to the GOP.

  51. 51
    kindness says:

    How are we supposed to treat the Republicans in Congress & especially the Senate who have been complicit in allowing Trump to run roughshod over the land?

    I’m not feeling like there will be much comity for a while. I myself would like an apology.

  52. 52
    Mnemosyne says:

    @low-tech cyclist:

    There is nothing that the Democrats CAN do about Trump.

    Nothing.

    The Democrats are not in control.

    I know that drives people crazy, but it’s the truth. Even if they passed a full set of articles of impeachment tomorrow, the Republicans in the Senate would vote them down immediately and we would be back at square one.

  53. 53
    jl says:

    @Mary G: Thanks for link. Like some other scandals of this administration, and others mostly GOP, a lot of the substance is known and has been reported, but it overlooked for various reasons. The whistle blower must have a red hot smoking gun that is far more damaging than what is publicly known. What is publicly known is already very damaging, but not reported for various reasons. I think one reason is that corporate media, particularly TV, is afraid to cause too much trouble until they know it will cause enough damage to the center of political power and target in order for them to avoid unpleasant consequences.

  54. 54
    TenguPhule says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    Spending originates in the House.

    And we’ve seen McConnell and Trump decide that the bills are simply suggestions that can be easily ignored once the funds are available for use.

  55. 55
    LarryB says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Nothing. Absolutely nothing will break them off from Trump because they know in their bones that if he goes down, the entire party comes crashing down right behind him.

    Depressingly, no. They’ll spend at most 2-4 years in the electoral wilderness. Remember, “conservatism can never fail”. Remember 2010? Who saw them bouncing back after the drubbing they took just 2 years earlier?

  56. 56
    TenguPhule says:

    @low-tech cyclist:

    When will that be? In the year 2525, I’m starting to think.

    Feeling optimistic?

  57. 57
    TenguPhule says:

    Ben Carson, Trump’s secretary of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), made a transphobic comment this week during a meeting with federal employees in San Francisco, the Washington Post reported.

    At least one person at the meeting walked out in protest, staffers told the Washington Post.

    Carson said he was concerned about “big, hairy men” trying to infiltrate women’s homeless shelters, a remark that multiple people at the meeting interpreted as an attack on trans women, according to the Post.

    This has to be projection. Has anyone investigated what Carson did on his off hours after work?

  58. 58
    Jay says:

    Smug, mediocre, Republican Congressman takes on @GretaThunberg—Greta proceeds to:-remind him she's a badass-destroy the very premise of his question-roast him when he misses her ptImagine a future w/Greta asking the q's. To get there, we must first heed her call to action. pic.twitter.com/GW2UefQZHC— Buffy Wicks (@BuffyWicks) September 19, 2019

  59. 59
    TenguPhule says:

    Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg privately told members of Congress this week that Libra, Facebook’s controversial digital currency, would not launch anywhere until it receives backing from American regulators, the Washington Post reported.

    Josh Hawley, a conservative Republican senator from Missouri, also suggested that Facebook sell Instagram and WhatsApp to demonstrate a new commitment to user privacy. Hawley said Zuckerberg “did not think that was a great idea,” the Associated Press reported.

    50 shades of darker then black.

  60. 60
    Dave says:

    @Roger Moore: I think more accurately when they believe that supporting him hurts there chance at re-election more than turning on him does. Doesn’t mean their assessment will necessarily be correct but when they think that they will turn and not before.

    They gave him this power because they are feckless fools.

  61. 61
    TenguPhule says:

    Sara Cook

    @saraecook
    INBOX: Jeffrey Byard’s name is quietly withdrawn from consideration for FEMA Administrator after accusations surfaced involving an altercation.

    View image on Twitter
    11
    10:26 AM – Sep 19, 2019

    So one good thing happened today.

  62. 62
    khead says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    You owe us a few more. Not sure that first one should even count. The sun isn’t even down yet where you live.

    Also the answer to the question is: Nothing will be done. See Tenguphule and Mnemosyne.

  63. 63
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    This is exactly right. And I do hate it. What gets me are people who think that the Republicans would pay any immediate price for doing so and that it could be used as leverage against them. With the media we’ve got? Give me a break. It would get brushed under the rug with the next new scandal that also seems to go nowhere.

    Now, I do think all of this is slowly having a cumulative effect. We’ve seen progress on the gun front with national retailers halting gun/ammo sales for example. We’re just not completely there yet

  64. 64
    Kirk Spencer says:

    @Mnemosyne: Well, not square one. It’d be a Noble Failure – failed but for the right reasons. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing since it establishes a base for future success. (We failed because those people were blind. Now we’re in charge and we need to turn over the rocks, and oh look what scurries out.)

    That said, I keep remembering a Roosevelt quote – a line he used several times with variations. “I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me.” While Pelosi has been tagged for backing her house off the subject, if you listen to her full statements it’s what you hear.

    So @low-tech cyclist, you want an impeachment? You’re kind of on the right track – keep pushing. Keep hammering. But remember impeachment is ultimately political which means you need a LOT of voices pushing to succeed – enough to, well, to collapse the Republican Omerta.

  65. 65
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Mnemosyne: The Democrats in the House can hold televised impeachment hearings and put Trump on the defense as he’s heading into his re-election campaign. That could damage him as his scandals are scrutinized and magnified in the media. Democrats have little to lose by impeaching Trump and forcing Republican Senators to ignore his crimes.

  66. 66
    Redshift says:

    @Roger Moore:

    The Republicans will turn on Trump when they think he’s hurting their chances of reelection (including the primary) and not a nanosecond earlier.

    They know he’s already hurting their chances for reelection. They won’t turn on him until they think that would help instead of making things even worse.

    And honestly, there’s a paradox there. On one hand, why should anyone forgive them if they do turn on him after sticking with him this long? But if no one will, what do they have to gain? (I mean, other than self-respect, a country worth living in, and such, but we’re taking about Republicans here.)

  67. 67
    Karen says:

    @B.B.A.: Exactly. I have zero faith that the GOP (and the Evangelicals who power them) will ever find their humanity. My 84 year old father says that if Trump loses and he refuses to leave, there will be a revolution. It won’t be enough.

  68. 68
    HeleninEire says:

    Al Gore on Chris Hayes is a good interview. And I kinda hate Chris.

  69. 69
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Kirk Spencer:

    Well, not square one. It’d be a Noble Failure – failed but for the right reasons. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing since it establishes a base for future success. (We failed because those people were blind. Now we’re in charge and we need to turn over the rocks, and oh look what scurries out.)

    All of this assumes the GOP would face any consequences for voting down impeachment and wouldn’t just be shrugged off by the media as “oh well, both sides”, no matter what the Dems said

  70. 70
    Mai naem mobile says:

    The Republicans will turn on him when they lose the Senate and don’t regain the House. If he loses the presidency in addition to the Senate and the House he will be quickly forgotten by the right as some not conservative not republican leader. Moscow Mitch will be like ‘Donald Who, hardly.knew him, he was just the coffee boy.’ By 2028 he will even be remembered by FOX News as a Democrat not even a Republican.

  71. 71
    Baud says:

    @Mai naem mobile:

    Agree. The only thing they understand is losing elections, as long as they lose enough of them in a row.

  72. 72
  73. 73
    Mai naem mobile says:

    I hope somebody at the DNC is keeping a stash of.clips of every possible GOP POTUS candidate in the next decade saying positive stuff about Trumpov. Every possible senate candidate state by state. The GOP should.never be able to get the stench of Trumpov off them.

  74. 74

    @Redshift:

    The ones of them who aren’t idiots know that demographics are moving steadily against them, and they need to appeal to a broader pool of voters. But doing that will turn off a significant chunk of their current base, and things would get worse before they (maybe) get better, and they might not get better until after the careers of the current crop.

    It’s not obvious that the second part of this is true. One of George W Bush’s big ideas electorally was to make a serious attempt to woo Hispanic voters. It worked for him; he got a substantially bigger chunk of the Hispanic vote than any other Republican candidate at least since Reagan without apparently turning off too many members of the Republican base. Other Republicans who have made a serious attempt to win Hispanic voters have been able to do it, too. So it’s clearly possible to appeal to new voters while keeping the old ones.

    I think the subtler problem is with the geographic makeup of the party. George W Bush could target Hispanic voters because he started in Texas, where there are a lot of them, and he went on into national politics, where there are also a lot of them. But the big geographic strength of the Republican party is in parts of the country where there aren’t so many winnable Hispanic voters, and where the minority they do have to deal with is implacably opposed to them. So most of the important Republicans in the House and Senate are from places where trying to broaden the base isn’t a viable strategy. The party platform is being driven by people who have been winning with the old approach rather than ones who might be able to win with a new approach.

  75. 75
    Redshift says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Televised where? C-SPAN? They can hold hearings, but they can’t make any channel people will watch show them and they can’t make people with more than three networks treat this like the Watergate hearings. And they can’t make empty chairs exciting when Trump officials refuse to show up.

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree that they should hold impeachment hearings because it’s their duty and it’s the right thing to do. And I think the leadership is wrong about the electoral calculus.

    But if I learned one thing from the Mueller Report and hearing, it’s that the only people who will be galvanized are the people who already know about this stuff. And I guarantee you that if they do, the same people who are griping because they aren’t holding hearings will be griping that they must be it wrong because the administration didn’t collapse in shame.

  76. 76
    B.B.A. says:

    Mind you, when the GOP does finally go through detrumpification, it won’t be because of a rejection of fascism. It’ll be because Trump was a RINO cuck, just like the Bushes. The next leader will be even more radical.

  77. 77
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Oh, I definitely think that the Democrats should continue their ongoing hearings into Trump’s crimes and make them as public as possible. There’s no deadline on submitting articles of impeachment to the Senate that I know of, so I’m fine with them dragging them out well into the election cycle.

    I just don’t think that we should fool ourselves into thinking that it will make any actual difference in what the Republicans decide to do. Basically, they’re terrorists with their fingers on a dead man switch, and they’re the only ones who can decide what they’re going to do about it. Democrats can try to persuade or coerce them, but the Republicans are the only ones who can actually act.

    That doesn’t mean that Democrats shouldn’t prepare for the aftermath, but it does mean that there ain’t a whole lot they can do to stop what’s happening.

  78. 78
    Karen says:

    @TenguPhule: And you get a cookie!

  79. 79
    jl says:

    @Redshift: ” They know he’s already hurting their chances for reelection. They won’t turn on him until they think that would help instead of making things even worse. ”

    I think their dilemma is that while Trump is probably already hurting them in the 2020 general, turning on him before the primaries would cause severe trouble there, and many cases, destroy their chances.

  80. 80

    @TS (the original): Can’t move money ya don’t have.

  81. 81
    jl says:

    @Mai naem mobile: ” By 2028 he will even be remembered by FOX News as a Democrat not even a Republican. ”

    Trump was a nominal Democrat once, so not really one of them. Reagan was a real Democrat before he turned, but that is different

  82. 82
  83. 83
    ktron says:

    Good lawd – get a grip!

    Trump is the apotheosis of the GOP.

    They won’t turn on him – he is the shiny icon of all they have worked for since Goldwater.

    Stop pussyfooting – the GOP is Trump!

  84. 84

    @Patricia Kayden:

    The Democrats in the House can hold televised* impeachment hearings

    *CSPAN might cover them, no one will watch, too boring.

  85. 85
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Baud:
    I don’t mean it as an argument against impeachment itself. I just get annoyed with some people that act as if the GOP would magically crumble if only the feckless Dems would Do Something Already.

    For sure, the Lewandowski fiasco shows that the Dems need to have a better questioning process with real teeth behind it. Maybe passing articles of impeachment, to give themselves the ability to throw uncooperative witnesses in jail, might help along with having a single lawyer do the questioning.

    But then, I wonder what’s to prevent witnesses from not showing up and who’s going to do the arresting?

  86. 86
    Baud says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    Maybe if we allow the audience to vote by tweet line on the Voice.

  87. 87
    Another Scott says:

    @Kirk Spencer: re – the FDR quote:

    Martin Berg, WheresOurMoney.org editor, researched allegations that FDR had said, “Make me do it” to Wikipedia:A. Philip Randolph. Berg concluded, “Far from encouraging the civil rights leaders to make him end discrimination, Roosevelt did everything he could to resist their pressure, according to Randolph’s biographers. Only when he was convinced that they wouldn’t buckle to presidential persuasion did FDR” issue “Executive Order 8802 barring discrimination in the defense industries. Randolph and his colleagues then canceled the march” on Washington they had planned.[3] DavidMCEddy (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

    EO 8802 was issued June 25, 1941

    In 1941 (77th Congress, 48 states), Democrats had 64 Democratic Senators (67%) to 30 GOP. 254 House Democrats (60%) to 165 GOP.

    Politics are different when one has that kind of majority.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  88. 88
  89. 89
    Raven says:

    Rachel says the pigs reversed themselves on sending the medically deferred home.

  90. 90
    Jay says:

    Journalists covering this— if you cover this story without acknowledging that McMahon literally spent years threatening female activists and researchers with no action from law enforcement, I will mean-tweet you five times over the course of two days. https://t.co/nVKLCj6GxX— AntiFash Gordon (@AntiFashGordon) September 18, 2019

  91. 91
    frosty says:

    @TenguPhule:

    This is why God invented flamethrowers.

    FU, ghoul. Time for the pie filter again. You really know how to fuck up a thread.

  92. 92
    TS (the original) says:

    They said it couldn’t be done:

    Rachel – in relation to admin policy reversal – “So that happened today – knock me over with a feather”

  93. 93
    Ruckus says:

    @low-tech cyclist:
    It isn’t that dems don’t want to impeach the MF, they do. But it is a political animal. And the senate is playing republican ball here. Moscow Mitch won’t even bring it up if the house impeaches trump. So he’d get to brag that he won. Which would not lower his power or his supporters enthusiasm for his bullshit. It would quite likely empower his reelection. This is a game/not a game situation. One side has the power and isn’t playing by any rules. You can’t just rush in like an enraged bull in the ring and take out the trump. It doesn’t work like that at all. A portion of those 60 million who voted for his ass have to decide they made a massive mistake. They are not going to do that if they think he and they won an impeachment fight.
    That’s why it can’t be done.
    If you look at Nixon, it took 2 yrs to get to the end and enough of the republicans in congress were ready to kick his ass out if he didn’t quit. How many of the bought and paid for republicans today are ready, one?
    Yeah it doesn’t work, given the absolute corruption of the republican party today.

  94. 94
    WaterGirl says:

    Not totally off topic, Susan Hennesey had a suggestion last night on one of the Lawfare podcasts – she thought it might not be good optics to hall Carter Page off in handcuffs after mostly saying fuck you to congress this week, but thought that a 10,000 a day fine for being in contempt of congress might be a good way to go.

    There has to be more than one way to approach this, but the Democrats had better figure out how to respond to all the gigantic fuck yous to congress before the legislative branch will have basically ceded all power to the executive branch.

    edit: hmm that might have been Corey L not Carter P. In my defense, I was listening as I feel asleep.

  95. 95

    @Roger Moore: The open question is whether Trump is the national version of Pete Wilson?

  96. 96
    HeleninEire says:

    Everyone go to CNN. Rudy is Drunk. Live.

  97. 97

    @Baud: That could work, maybe get this Simon Peter dude to host. Still don’t know who he is.

  98. 98
    chopper says:

    what’s gonna get the GOP to turn on trump? there’s only one thing and it’s the same thing that got them to turn on bush. a really, really shitty economy. and even then, like 2009, they’ll just rebrand themselves and walk away without much of a scratch.

  99. 99
    zhena gogolia says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    How many times are you going to say that before the cock crows?

  100. 100
  101. 101
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷:

    Maybe passing articles of impeachment, to give themselves the ability to throw uncooperative witnesses in jail, might help

    This is not right. The ability to jail uncooperative witnesses comes from congressional subpoena authority. There is so-called “inherent contempt power,” in which the witness is arrested by the Sergeant at Arms and brought before the body for a proceeding and the imposition of punishment. Under this route, imprisonment is limited to that session of Congress. The advantage to inherent contempt is that this form of civil contempt is not subject to executive interference or the pardon power; however, it hasn’t been used in more than 80 years.
    The alternative is to refer the matter to the U.S. Attorney for D.C. I think we all know how that ends up.

  102. 102
    Another Scott says:

    @TS (the original): Twitter:

    Niraj Warikoo Verified account @nwarikoo

    Niraj Warikoo Retweeted AILA

    There are reports that USCIS has just reversed its recent elimination of medical deferrals. It may offer hope for Abraham Morales of Michigan, but it’s on an individual basis, so still unclear what his future status will be.

    […]

    Dunno, myself. But it bears watching (as does everything this administration does).

    (via LOLGOP)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  103. 103
    Jay says:

    Here’s where your tax dollars are really going:Misc. gov't services: 1%Community development: 2%Science/tech: 3%Enviro: 3%Infrastructure: 3%Foreign affairs: 4%Police: 5%CDC/NIH: 5%Food stamps/child care: 6%Vet benefits: 7%Edu/work training: 7%…Military: 54% pic.twitter.com/E04wJtKB3p— Robert Reich (@RBReich) September 18, 2019

  104. 104
    Redshift says:

    @Roger Moore: Fair points. I do think that the groups other than Hispanics that they can effectively appeal to without substantive changes are pretty limited, and it’s harder to do below the presidential level, without the power to make anyone else in the party go along.

  105. 105
    jl says:

    @HeleninEire: ” Everyone go to CNN. Rudy is Drunk. Live. ”

    Rudy is out of control. When more info of this Trump latest stunt is leaked it must be really bad.

  106. 106
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Bobby Thomson:
    Thanks, I must have misremembered. Assuming fines are an option under “inherant contempt” of Congress, the fining those in contempt 10 grand (or more) a day as others upthread suggested would be a good way to go

  107. 107
    randal m sexton says:

    I do gots to put this here. . https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9Ay727EYzw

  108. 108
    cain says:

    @Millard Filmore:
    IF that is true, where is our intelligence folks? They should be out in front trying to figure out how to expose all of them with solid data. Instead they sit, and allow the judiciary to slowly be corrupted. I’m confused on why this shit is happening.

  109. 109
    gene108 says:

    @mattH:

    The Republican Party in it’s current state can’t die soon enough. Thing I am most afraid of is that it doesn’t die.

    It will die and be reborn as a full fledged white supremacist party.

    After every defeat Republicans lurch further and further rightward.

    Ford’s loss lead to Reagan. Bush, Sr.’s loss lead to Bush, Jr. McCain’s loss led to Trump.

    There’s no going back to pre-Trump.

  110. 110
    cain says:

    folks,
    I think it’s going to be civil war. I think that’s what is going to happen to kick Trump out. I don’t see Dem leadership being able to have the tools to stop what’s happening. What will they do when Trump refuses to leave says that it is all fake and the DOJ backs him?

  111. 111
    Jay says:

    Can you ever wear a watch that's fancier than your boss's? A look at watch etiquette at work. https://t.co/harRgj2fu7— The Wall Street Journal (@WSJ) August 28, 2019

    Eat the Rich.

  112. 112
    joel hanes says:

    @grubert:

    too much of one voice

    One of the reasons that Cleek, peace be upon him and all praise to his Law, invented the pie filter.

  113. 113
  114. 114
    Another Scott says:

    @Ruckus:

    You can’t just rush in like an enraged bull in the ring and take out the trump. It doesn’t work like that at all.

    Insert Leeroy Jenkins meme here

    :-)

    Seriously, you’re absolutely right. We have to do what we can, but we have to follow the rules. Why? Because we believe in the rules, and most of the country does as well.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  115. 115
    Baud says:

    @cain:

    Trump and the DOJ are irrelevant to the transition process. Our next president will have Trump arrested of he tries to overthrow the government of the United States.

  116. 116
    Mary G says:

    Watching @RudyGiuliani on @CNN with @ChrisCuomo it’s hard to figure how he hasn’t landed a 4th wife already. https://t.co/6u8XZQFISl— Col. Morris Davis (@ColMorrisDavis) September 20, 2019

    Now Rudy is doing a Trump-like threat, saying that the information “is already in the right hands“ and that everyone will be embarrassed at how bad it’s going to be. I’ve sern mob defendants who are more composed than this.— Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) September 20, 2019

  117. 117
    Millard Filmore says:

    @LarryB:

    Remember 2010? Who saw them bouncing back after the drubbing they took just 2 years earlier?

    I do not recall that treason figured prominently in that election.

  118. 118
    HeleninEire says:

    @jl: GUYS NO JOKE. He is so drunk and out of control Trump is gonna fire him tomorrow. Wow. This is crazy.

  119. 119

    @Mary G:

    Watching @RudyGiuliani on @CNN with @ChrisCuomo it’s hard to figure how he hasn’t landed a 4th wife already.

    I almost did a spit take reading that.

  120. 120
    Jay says:

    2018 GM profits: $10,800,000,0002018 GM CEO salary: $22,000,000Amount GM wants to increase workers’ healthcare costs: 500%This country does not suffer from scarcity. We suffer from corporate greed.— Rep. Ilhan Omar (@Ilhan) September 19, 2019

  121. 121
    cain says:

    @Dave:
    In this case, their own gerrymandering have fucked them. Since they have decided that their entire district is composed of crazies they now have to be crazies as well.

  122. 122
    Dave says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: That’s my optimistic read. If things go well, and there is by no means a guarantee they will but the certainly can, he ends up being the harbinger big a major sea change against the plutocratic death cult that is the modern GOP.

  123. 123
    jl says:

    @HeleninEire: The plot to get Ukraine to spread dirt on Biden, whether true or not, to help Trump in 2020 is running into problems. So, looks like Plan B is yelling Biden is the greatest scandal in history that the corrupt media has ignored.

  124. 124
    TS (the original) says:

    @Another Scott: That was what she was discussing – sorry I didn’t have a link – the concern is – they’ve said it – but will they do it – Rachel was slightly wary as to motive.

  125. 125
    joel hanes says:

    @TS (the original):

    I have no idea what it takes to turn people off believing the GOP is the party of free enterprise and wonderment. The GOP understands economics. The GOP won’t give your money to those who do not deserve it. The GOP has the right to rule

    People are told this, continually, every day, by Fox and Sinclair and the WSJ Opinion Page, and increasingly by CNN, and it’s the unavoidable framing of many of the Sunday bobblehead shows, and it’s the state religion of much of the Village.

    If we ever have control of the government again, we should reinstate the limits on consolidation of media ownership.
    But the government can’t do much about the media, because of the First Amendment. We, as citizens, must find ways to attack Fox and Sinclair to diminish the grip they have on 27% of our fellow citizens.

  126. 126
    Baud says:

    Maybe Schiff should subpoena the president of Ukraine.

  127. 127
    oldgold says:

    More information about the whistleblower scandal was revealed Thursday evening in a report in The Washington Post.

    “A whistleblower complaint about President Trump made by an intelligence official centers on Ukraine, according to two people familiar with the matter.”

  128. 128
    jl says:

    OMG, Giulini played the HRC scandal coverup card.

    Edit: when some of the crew laugh out loud at you, that is a bad sign.

  129. 129
    Jay says:

    It's a normal thing that a far-right gang is probably going to start a fight outside of a furry convention because of their friend who got kicked out of the republican party for going on the show with the guy from Fear Factor and supported having sex with teenagers— Goad Gatsby (@GoadGatsby) September 17, 2019

  130. 130
    Another Scott says:

    @cain: It doesn’t work that way. You know that.

    E.g. House.gov:

    Since the mid-20th century, on January 6 at 1:00 pm before a Joint Session of Congress, the Vice President opens the votes from each state in alphabetical order. He passes the votes to four tellers—two from the House and two from the Senate—who announce the results. House tellers include one Representative from each party and are appointed by the Speaker. At the end of the count, the Vice President then declares the name of the next President.

    Donnie doesn’t control the process. The next President will be the person that wins the most Electoral College votes, as always. (Yes, with some exceptions that followed other rules.)

    In the case of an Electoral College deadlock or if no candidate receives the majority of votes, a “contingent election” is held. The election of the President goes to the House of Representatives. Each state delegation casts one vote for one of the top three contenders to determine a winner.

    Only two Presidential elections (1800 and 1824) have been decided in the House.

    Though not officially a contingent election, in 1876, South Carolina, Florida, and Louisiana submitted certificates of elections for both candidates. A bipartisan commission of Representatives, Senators, and Supreme Court Justices, reviewed the ballots and awarded all three state’s electoral votes to Rutherford B. Hayes of Ohio, who won the presidency by a single electoral vote.

    Don’t panic.

    Work to vote them out of office.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  131. 131
    BlueDWarrior says:

    I want a recording of that Giuliani segment

  132. 132
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:
    How do they do it in courts? In that case, just jail them. The Capitol Police, under the House Sergeant-at-arms, will arrest them until they decide to answer the questions truthfully. This of course doesn’t address the possibility any witnesses called might not show up at all, given how brazenly lawless the GOP has become

  133. 133
    TS (the original) says:

    @Baud: Can you imagine the transition – new admin trying to find out what on earth is happening in each department – trump officials disappearing so as to not explain what is happening. Shredders working overtime throughout the land. Computers being physically destroyed. Some departments will have to be gutted to get democracy in the US back on track.

  134. 134
    Mary G says:

    To say @RudyGiuliani is batshit crazy is truly insulting to bats and shit.@realDonaldTrump https://t.co/vJIjVhr65w— Col. Morris Davis (@ColMorrisDavis) September 20, 2019

  135. 135
    Baud says:

    @TS (the original):

    It’ll be a mess.

  136. 136
    cain says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    *CSPAN might cover them, no one will watch, too boring.

    The Democratic party needs to hire TV execs, reality TV producers and various others – if they want to change hearts and minds they need to start treating this like a reality tv show not government. That’s how Trump treats it. Secondly, when Republicans are doing something illegal, do your own, when Republicans and conservatives complain, just point out that they have the same thing and you would remove yours when they dismantle theirs.

  137. 137
    Baud says:

    @jl:

    OMG, Giulini played the HRC scandal coverup card.

    Edit: when some of the crew laugh out loud at you, that is a bad sign.

    That was the reaction we needed in 2016.

  138. 138
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @hells littlest angel: The white Evangelicals are with him to the death. And they really do believe if he doesn’t get reelected they will all be arrested and their leaders killed.

    This isn’t something they read. They’re told this daily by the televangelists ‘who are conduits of God’s voice revealing his will.’

    Just watch a short bit of eg JimBakker videos. They live in a world totally different from the one we live in.

  139. 139
    HeleninEire says:

    @jl: Look at you being normal. No. But yes. Whatever. My posts were about how MOTHERFUCKING crazy Rudy was. Yeah I get how that’s how the subject started? Maybe. That motherfucker needs to be shut in a padded room.

  140. 140
    jl says:

    @Baud: A double edged sword. Nonstop laughter at Baud 2020! made the movement what what it is today.

  141. 141
    Mary G says:

    Cuomo: “I am embarrassed. For you.”
    Rudy: “You shouldn’t be embarrassed for me. Don’t be embarrassed for me.”
    Cuomo: “Somebody needs to.”
    Rudy: garble garble spin spin
    Cuomo: “I gotta go.”

    pic.twitter.com/xJPpsqPHw5— Lincoln's Bible (@LincolnsBible) September 20, 2019

  142. 142
    jl says:

    @HeleninEire: Please see my follow-up tweets.

  143. 143
    grammypat says:

    @oldgold: ICYMI To repeat from downstairs: “If you are still around, I’d like to talk privately”

    If you saw it and chose to ignore it, I sorry to bother you. I am not trying to stalk you.

  144. 144
    cain says:

    @Bobby Thomson:
    Fuck this shit. If Mitch can change the powers of Congress, so can we. Just haul him off to jail and then make the Republicans go to court to get him out of it, and just before the ruling let him go. Do it again.

  145. 145
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @cain: But that’s not how Democrats and Democratic leaning people think. Usually the people who do that but can’t back it up policy wise end up on the furthest back of the backbenches.

    There is a genuine asymmetry to how both sides act.

  146. 146
    Raven says:

    “Stand your ground; don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”

  147. 147
    Millard Filmore says:

    @cain: Perhaps they need an event that has no chance of exposing their deep secrets, does not endanger their spies, involves malfeasance of only USA citizens, …

    Maybe this Ukraine thing is what they have decided on.

  148. 148
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: and that’s the inherent problem we face. They refuse to see the same reality we do, so there can be no action because we’re eternally debating the premise of the argument.

    The whole operation is to make civil society non-functioning while the courts establish an ostensibly permanent conservative hegemony.

  149. 149
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @cain:

    Secondly, when Republicans are doing something illegal, do your own

    Terrible idea. If we head down that path, then we get two authoritarian parties with no regard for laws. How does that help?

  150. 150
    cain says:

    @Baud:
    It seems that rules are in free fall right now. Trump will not accept the results of the election and will use the DOJ to sue and stop the transition. There will be a constitutional crises because the man will not leave and will not accept defeat, he will go to the courts and his people will help him.

    If he doesn’t leave what tools do we have? Do you believe that the President elect will be able to ask the armed forces to remove him? With Trump’s sycophants in charge?

  151. 151
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    however, it hasn’t been used in more than 80 years.

    Great, so we can make it up as we go along.

    These lawless fuckers are pissing on precedents much older then 80 years.

  152. 152
    Mnemosyne says:

    @khead:

    To be clear, I’m not counseling despair, only realism. We should be planning how to re-build rather than wasting time wringing our hands over the fact that the Republicans currently have control.

    The “Thousand Year Reich” lasted about 12 years. Republicans have been in control for longer than that, but the rotting foundation they threw over Nixon’s crimes is getting weaker by the day. This is an extinction burst. It’s going to be messy and ugly and a lot of damage is going to happen, but collapse is inevitable.

  153. 153
    B.B.A. says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Better than one lawless authoritarian party and one party that can’t win an election.

  154. 154
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @cain: what history says, basically, is when this much of the system decides to go to war against itself, the system fails.

    All society is based on people respecting the rules established, if everyone wants to b fight the rules without a decisive winner, then the system stops, if not fails, and a new one has to be established.

  155. 155
    RAVEN says:

    @cain: Take a walk.

  156. 156
    Baud says:

    @cain:

    Yes. Trump will be all alone once he loses the election.

  157. 157
    TenguPhule says:

    @Baud:

    Trump and the DOJ are irrelevant to the transition process.

    We depend on the federal government’s agencies for the transition.

    Trump and company have hacks and grifters in charge of all the relevant agencies.

  158. 158
    HeleninEire says:

    @jl: Yes. Got it.

  159. 159
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @cain: Trump’s legal power ends the moment the new president takes the oath of office.

  160. 160
    TS (the original) says:

    @Mary G: I giggled – sometimes you have to laugh because the trump admin is just such a disaster

  161. 161
    Mandalay says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷:

    Maybe passing articles of impeachment, to give themselves the ability to throw uncooperative witnesses in jail…

    Be very, very careful on what you wish for in that direction.

  162. 162
    Jay says:

    Boston Police spent $642,182.98 to help a gang of crypto-fascists who don't even live in Boston have a parade there.Seriously, @marty_walsh— what the hell do you think you're doing? https://t.co/dCbklrcCba— AntiFash Gordon (@AntiFashGordon) September 20, 2019

  163. 163
    Tokyokie says:

    @Ruckus: A perfect case that confirms your point is the history of Italy’s Christian Democrats. They were the lead party in every governing coalition from the end of WWII until the end of the century. But they became too reliant on voters in Sicily and Naples and points south, which meant doing business with the mob. When northern prosecutors began taking on the mob — and the mob began car-bombing them — Italians became disgusted with the party, and their electoral losses were staggering. The Christian Democrats are no longer a factor in Italian politics.

  164. 164
    Baud says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Agencies can’t prevent the next president from taking office.

  165. 165
    Another Scott says:

    @cain: No there won’t. If Donnie doesn’t win the election, he will not be President.

    Stop panicking.

    Take a break and go watch some cat videos or something.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  166. 166
    cain says:

    @Another Scott:
    It’s not that I’m panicking, I just think Donny doesn’t know the process and will use whatever levers he can. Again, what happens when he refuses to leave and then like he always does, sues or pushes to the supreme court because he doesn’t believe the votes. The man is not well. Nothing in his presidency has followed norms. I think you need to think like Trump, not what the laws or process are. He doesn’t know or care of them, he has an end goal.

  167. 167
    TenguPhule says:

    @frosty:

    FU, ghoul.

    You don’t watch many movies or play video games, obviously.

  168. 168
    TS (the original) says:

    @Baud: You need to get the campaign together now – ideas like this is why you should be president.

  169. 169
    cain says:

    Alright fine, I’m taking a break. Thanks for listening.

  170. 170
    TenguPhule says:

    @Baud:

    Agencies can’t prevent the next president from taking office.

    Actually they can.

    We’ve just never seen the executive branch refuse to cooperate in transition before.

    Because it was unthinkable.

  171. 171
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    P

  172. 172
    Another Scott says:

    @cain: The process doesn’t care whether he believes the votes or not. It’s not his decision.

    We don’t have a King running the country. We have division of powers and division of responsibilities.

    Just because Donnie is bending far too many rules and norms doesn’t mean he’s going to make himself God Emperor in January 2021. The system is straining but it’s not broken.

    Yet.

    If he wins in November 2020, and has a compliant Congress and compliant courts, then all bets are off. But we’re not there yet, and all indications are that if we work hard and keep our eyes on the prize we can continue to turn back his and the GOP’s excesses.

    Take it easy.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  173. 173
    Baud says:

    @TenguPhule: No, they can’t. Stop spreading misinformation.

  174. 174
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I’m sure this point has been made already, but

    I do think when Trump finally goes down, it’s going to be over in a blink of an eye and we won’t really comprehend how it happened for years after.

    It happened because of racism. Let’s never forget it.

  175. 175
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Mandalay:

    Be very, very careful on what you wish for in that direction.

    To be honest, the optics might be bad. It’s not that I want to jail opponents, but there have to be consequences for flouting Congress’ authority

  176. 176
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Wow. Had never heard of this.

    Read the Wiki entry.

  177. 177
    Martin says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: The House’s job is to certify the election.

  178. 178
    Ruckus says:

    @Another Scott:
    True.
    trump knows only the rule of money. He doesn’t know how to actually earn any but he does know how to fuck other people over to get some. Learned that from dear ole dad. He’s not as good at it as dad was but that’s because he seems to like stepping on his dick. And he wears golf shoes to do this. Because he’s a complete fucking ass. Even to himself.

  179. 179
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Mary G: To say @RudyGiuliani is batshit crazy is truly insulting to bats and shit realDonaldTrump https://t.co/vJIjVhr65w— Col. Morris Davis (@ColMorrisDavis) September 20, 2019

    IT’s all over twitter. I wonder if he’s drunk again

  180. 180
    Jinchi says:

    @TS (the original):

    trump officials disappearing so as to not explain what is happening.

    The real concern is the ones who burrow in. I remember a lot of that going on during the final months of the Bush administration. A political appointee quitting to be hired into a civilian position, where they can continue to undermine the agency for as long as possible.

    Just weeks before leaving office, the Interior Department’s top lawyer has shifted half a dozen key deputies — including two former political appointees who have http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....03537.html
    been involved in controversial environmental decisions — into senior civil service posts.

  181. 181
    Aleta says:

    As long as TV corporations are willing to put people like Giuliani and Lewandowski on, knowing they will not only lie but will work in as many lying sound bites crafted for later use as they have breath for, I don’t …
    As long as they’re willing to hire someone Lewandowski immediately after he was dramatically “fired” by the Trump campaign (but still bound by disclosure and anti-disparagement agreement) … I don’t know what to say about the future.

  182. 182
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Martin:
    Thanks. I realized my question was kinda stupid. The whistleblower blow off has unnerved me

  183. 183
    Ruckus says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    IT’s all over twitter. I wonder if he’s still drunk again
    Fixed that for you. And for reality.

  184. 184
    Mary G says:

    He’s half right:

    NEW: Pool report today from a @JoeBiden fundraiser revealed that Biden donor and event host, casino magnate Neil Bluhm, told donors that @BernieSanders and @ewarren “don’t represent the Democratic Party” that he supports.— Ryan Nobles (@ryanobles) September 19, 2019

    Warren is scary to the good old boys.

  185. 185
    Jeffro says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Twitter Dick Nixon is slyly suggesting that Rudy’s in the tertiary stage of sy…

  186. 186
    Mary G says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s really not funny, but I’ve been vastly entertained by Twitter on Rudy.

  187. 187
    Joseph A Miller says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: YES!!!! 100% AGREEMENT!!!

  188. 188
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    I think he hit all the conspiracies, including Soros, but left out Illuminati. And aliens.

  189. 189
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Mnemosyne: Wasn’t there an agreement at the end of WWII ‘for the good of the country” not to prosecute the wealthy financiers, industrialists in US like the Bush family ancestor who supported the Nazis with money at al?

    And never any penalty for Ford making panzers and IBM supplying tech to trace and record Jewish ancestry.

  190. 190
    Jay says:

    "Elon Musk commits perjury" is exactly how I thought this would go. https://t.co/VPVKlTAO31 pic.twitter.com/b629lAr4fB— Respectable Lawyer (@RespectableLaw) September 16, 2019

  191. 191
  192. 192
    TS (the original) says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: We might think “Rudy is drunk again” but cnn just gave him 10 minutes to expound on his conspiracy theories involving Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden (& son) and George Soros. This is what Fox will be telling the deplorables – there will be nothing about trump/Pence involvement in Ukraine.

  193. 193
    Jeffro says:

    @Mary G:

    Warren is scary to the good old boys.

    She scares the SHIT out of the bankers and Wall Street traders, that’s for sure. Far be it from me to tell her what to do, since she’s running an excellent campaign, but it wouldn’t surprise me if in the next couple of months she gave a speech aimed directly at them: “I know some – many of you – do a great job for your average, everyday clients. Help me root out the people and firms that are taking advantage of the American people” Etc etc. Worth a shot

  194. 194
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @TS (the original): Oh, that period just opened up the world to young women!!

  195. 195
    jl says:

    @MagdaInBlack: If Trump surrogates keep going on TV and keep chewing the scenery like that, everyone is going to want to cover the Trump foreign bribery attempt. People like Anderson Cooper and Lester Holt are shaking with jealously right now.

  196. 196
    Jay says:

    After a dispute over deplatforming, a PPC riding association doxxed a Muslim anti-fascist activist (@OmarX204) and called him a terrorist on Twitter. So he decided to sue. He spoke to me and provided me with some of the docs. Here's the story.https://t.co/YaZ7A9tDqk— Mack Lamoureux (@MackLamoureux) September 17, 2019

  197. 197
    Mandalay says:

    @Aleta:

    As long as TV corporations are willing to put people like Giuliani and Lewandowski on…

    This.

    There is no way under the moon and stars that CNN invited Giuliani to appear this evening in the hope of providing useful some insights and perspectives on the news. Giuliani is a volatile idiot, a liar and a provocateur, and CNN know this. They invite him on precisely because they know he will spew lies, shit and garbage.

    CNN has no more interest in educating their viewers about what is going on in the world than FoxNews.

  198. 198
    HeleninEire says:

    Going to sleep now. Good night. But please go look at Rudy. Oh my God.

  199. 199
    Aleta says:

    I saw a clip at the beginning of Cuomo v. Giuliani. G is paid to throw out enough horrible stuff that some of it will stick, and as long as he’s paid well I doubt he cares if he contradicts himself or gets mocked for looking drunk and deranged. He’s paid to go on TV because someone believes he’s effective. Someone at CNN decides to let him and Lewandowsi come on, so that another network won’t get them. The chance to help fascists deliver propaganda is now treated like a scoop. It’s so fcked up.

  200. 200
    jl says:

    @TS (the original): Following the Rudy meltdown, Cuomo had a whole segment setting the BS Biden-Ukraine story straight.
    Fox News will broadcast the smear against Biden anyway, and the Trump base will believe it anyway, regardless of what Giuliani does.
    Trump surrogates going insane, making absurd accusations, contradicting themselves and and admitting what they denied just seconds ago is a good thing.

    Some people here have decided that anything and everything that happens must help Trump. They need to take a deep breath.

  201. 201
    Jay says:

    Breaking News: There are 2.9 billion fewer birds in the U.S. and Canada now than 50 years ago, a new study found, a steep decline that stunned the researchers https://t.co/ZhJymIts7C— The New York Times (@nytimes) September 19, 2019

  202. 202
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Mandalay: CNN has no more interest in informing their viewers on what is going on in the world than FoxNews.

    Rudy Giuliani admitted on national television that, while acting as Donald trump’s personal lawyer, he sought the cooperation of foreign government in smearing a political opponent. If people don’t care about that, it’s not CNN’s fault.

  203. 203
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @jl:
    It was really quite stunning.
    I notice he seems to be turning orange, or was he always?

  204. 204
    TS (the original) says:

    @jl:

    They need to take a deep breath.

    Democrats need much more than take a deep breath. It is near impossible to get through to those who believe the conspiracies that GOP pundits propogate & the media has them on again and again. Calling them out after the fact is irrelevant. DON’T have them on in the first place is the only solution & the media won’t do it. The Ukraine is now “both sides” forever.

  205. 205
    jl says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The motives of CNN and other major media outlets may not be admirable. But if the Trump surrogates make the situation far worse for themselves and Trump, I think that is a good thing.

    Giuliani lent a helping hand in getting the truth out about the Stormy Daniels story in a much more public and much quicker way than if Trump had another spokesman. It will be hard to top that for the corrupt Trump foreign bribery attempt, but I hope he gives it his best shot.

  206. 206
    Lyrebird says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Agreed, and I almost wrote back to Sen. Hirono’s petition about impeaching Kavanaugh (sp?) to say, okay, yes, but impeach Barr first!

    But I defer to the Senator’s expertise. She’s a dem fine questioner.

  207. 207
    Ruckus says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷:
    The house doesn’t have the level of authority that the senate does. Because the founders didn’t actually want the people to have a lot of power. They also believed that the senate would mostly do the law stuff and the executive would run the place day to day, one person in charge with enough control to keep out a monarchy. I doubt that they had any concept whatsoever of what modern day life is in the US. First I doubt that most of them thought it would ever become this big a country or this militarily strong. Remember that they were fighting a then strong military with civilians. And few of them thought much about ending slavery. The population of the world is said to have been less than 1 billion in 1800. Now it’s over 7 billion. in just over 200 years. It isn’t the same world as it was 70 yrs ago, when the world population was about 2 1/2 billion. In my lifetime we’ve almost tripled the worlds population. The world can not go on the way it is, in politics, in governments, in economies, in pollution, in natural resource usage, in bigotry. It will destroy itself if conservatives keep on trying to go backasswards.

  208. 208
    Jeffro says:

    @MagdaInBlack: It’s almost like…like a mark of the Beast. Who knew that 666 = some sort of code for “orange”?

  209. 209
    jl says:

    @TS (the original): A show that calls itself a news show has to allow both sides to present their case, whether we like it or not.
    I’m just saying that if Trump surrogates make fools of themselves in public, that is a good thing.

    So… please take a deep breath. Don’t hatch doom scenarios in your head about things that will not change, and can work for either good or bad.

  210. 210
    Jay says:

    Bannon knows about non-linear warfare, which plays out on a battleground where you never really know what your enemies are doing or even who they are. Karl Rove knows about it, too, but the master is Putin adviser Vladislav Surkov — “the most powerful man you’ve never heard of.” pic.twitter.com/m05gef5IfC— Caroline Orr (@RVAwonk) September 19, 2019

  211. 211
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @TenguPhule: Disqualified because of 1 barroom brawl 2 yrs ago?

    Just think of what their ‘keepers’ have done!!!

    This admin and party is totally deranged!

  212. 212
    Aleta says:

    @Jay: Among other reasons, insecticides and weed killers are eliminating their food. Or they eat it just after the food has been poisoned. I worry that these new EEE cases will scare us into widespread spraying against mosquitos. More people are spraying their property to kill ticks because of Lyme, but the formula kills more than ticks. And birds still land in sprayed areas to eat seeds and things.

  213. 213
    Jay says:

    Just two years ago, the Conservatives' campaign manager was a founding director of a company that produced a video in defence of blackface that's been viewed 602,375 times: https://t.co/ujfDitxYu5 pic.twitter.com/DL8ByCd1KO— Jonathan Goldsbie (@goldsbie) September 19, 2019

  214. 214
    Michael Allen says:

    @BlueDWarrior: YouTube. Search cnn Rudy Guilani and click on “today”.

  215. 215
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @Jeffro:
    😄😄😄
    I was thinking something just like that !

  216. 216
    Jay says:

    @Aleta:

    Chemicals, habitat loss, urban lighting, outside cats, it all adds up.

    Several of our neighours did some logging this year. We didn’t so as an immediate result, we saw swarms of birds and bird species on the property that we have never seen before.

    Doono what happens next year.

  217. 217
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Ruckus:
    It’s very true that the world has changed drastically since the Founding. Our political system just hasn’t kept up and honestly, if a political party simply decides to stop obeying the law, there’s very little anybody can do to stop them except by voting them out en mass

  218. 218
    Mandalay says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    If people don’t care about that, it’s not CNN’s fault.

    Nobody outside of the Trump world (except you) attaches any real importance to what Giuliani says. He is a storm in a teacup.

    And it is entirely CNN’s fault that they invite him on. They know he’s going to lie and smear and lob bombs, and generate advertising revenue. That’s precisely why they constantly ask him to appear.

  219. 219
    Jim, Foolsh Literalist says:

    @Mandalay: Nobody cares what Giulani says but CNN should be damned for having him on?

    They know he’s going to lie and smear and lob bombs,

    but… nobody cares what he says, so….?

    generate advertising revenue.

    because…. nobody care what he says?

    (except you)

    Did you mean that to be some kind of zinger? I’m genuinely curious.

  220. 220
    Jay says:

    Hello, @Apple & @tim_cook. In light of the Tree of Life Synagogue mass shooting, are you really comfortable with carrying @telegram, an app that steadfastly refuses to do away with a hit list of Jews with photos, on your @AppStore? https://t.co/lMEk8e7mTn— Sleeping Giants (@slpng_giants) September 19, 2019

  221. 221
    dww44 says:

    @Mnemosyne: Not impeaching the most impeachment worthy President in all of U S History just because the Senate won’t act is not a reason not to impeach. Indeed, I would argue, once again, that it is the duty and obligation of the Democratic House to bring articles of impeachment.

    As Elizabeth Warren said shortly after the release of the Mueller report, Impeach Trump and let it go to the Senate and force every Senator to say yea or nay and answer to history for that vote. Her early unequivocal stance on this issue is the primary reason she went to the top of my Presidential candidate list. Golly darn, it would be so great if she were a representative in Congress and chair of the judiciary committee (sorry, Rep. Nadler). She would have taken decisive action to shut down Lewandowski before the hearing devolved into a chaotic mess that damaged the good party more than the evil one.

  222. 222
    nasruddin says:

    @Mnemosyne
    That kind of gigantic prisoner’s dilemma situation is very unstable. An awful lot of those people are closet psychopaths. What could trigger its breakdown?

  223. 223
    joel hanes says:

    @low-tech cyclist:

    When will that be? In the year 2525

    if Man is still alive
    if Woman can survive

    which is looking distinctly doubtful.

  224. 224
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Jeffro: oh God, if she gave that speech, the “corrupt sellout” whining from the Bernie stans would be deafening.

  225. 225
    Raoul says:

    @Jay: Anecdata, I know, but I’ve been camping in the same place for 24 years. The past five, there have been almost no birds. It’s creepy.

  226. 226
    Heywood J. says:

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    The white Evangelicals are with him to the death. And they really do believe if he doesn’t get reelected they will all be arrested and their leaders killed.

    For the damage they’ve been doing to this country just in my lifetime, I sincerely wish we could make their worst nightmares come true. Failing that, I’ll settle for just making them pay their goddamned taxes.

    Which is really their worst nightmare.

  227. 227
    Heywood J. says:

    @dww44:

    Not impeaching the most impeachment worthy President in all of U S History just because the Senate won’t act is not a reason not to impeach. Indeed, I would argue, once again, that it is the duty and obligation of the Democratic House to bring articles of impeachment.

    If what Commander Babyfingers has done so far is not impeachable, then nothing is impeachable. The word and the process no longer have any meaning. Therefore another remedy must be identified. I think it revolves around money. If you get enough folks together who loudly boycott every company that has anything to do with these monsters, or their propaganda monkeys on Fixed Noise, you make a dent in their bottom line.

    Frankly, most of the shit media in this country should be boycotted anyway, they’re worse gaslighters than Trump.

  228. 228
    Pittsburgh Mike says:

    What you do is simple, and the folks over at Lawfare provided it: you call the people who know the identity of the whistleblower, and demand the name. If the Executive branch refuses to provide it, you assume the worst rumors are correct about the President, and you impeach.

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