Election 2020 Open Thread: Kamala Harris Continues to Impress






166 replies
  1. 1
    germy says:

    This thread on Biden’s lifeguard days:

    Thread: I'm always astounded by the imaginings of white people as it relates to race. Many of them have this fictionalized jigaboo version that is almost alien-like. And one of the greatest examples of this ever is Joe Biden's story about Corn Pop the gangsta.— michaelharriot (@michaelharriot) September 14, 2019

  2. 2
    laura says:

    She Ready!
    My Senator is quietly doing the work, has a ground game, and while maybe not at the top of the polls, or debates, she’s going to bust out big early in the primaries.
    A happy Warrior, Kamala Harris.

  3. 3
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    Thank you, Anne. It is hard to find good pro-Kamala content these days, so much appreciated! I’m going wear my Harris shirt today.

    Elizabeth Warren is kicking ass in this primary too. May the best women win! (Perhaps by working together…)

  4. 4
    Josie says:

    @laura:

    From your lips to FSM’s ears. I would so love to see her in a debate with our dear leader.

  5. 5
    Mike in NC says:

    We need a candidate who can send Fat Bastard back down the sewer from which he crawled. My money is on Senator Harris.

  6. 6
    Baud says:

    Last week I asked Kamala Harris a question I’ve wanted to for a while: “Sanders and Warren say the root cause of people’s problems is Wall St greed. Joe Biden says it’s Donald Trump. What does Kamala Harris say is that root cause?”

    I’m so relieved the answer wasn’t “Baud.”

  7. 7
    germy says:

    @Baud:

    I’m so relieved the answer wasn’t “Baud.”

    You have to go to her website to see that.

  8. 8
    Another Scott says:

    @Baud: I think that lumping Sanders and Warren together in that framing is unfair. Warren talks a lot about families and recognizes the complexity of life these days and the forces pushing too many people down. Wilmer’s the Millionaires and Billionaires guy. :-/

    That said, I agree that Harris is talking about it too, and good for this thread.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  9. 9
    B.B.A. says:

    Harris is by far the most electable candidate we have. A year and two months from now I don’t want to be wearing a “Kamala Woulda Won” t-shirt.

  10. 10
    Baud says:

    @Another Scott:

    Warren’s more well rounded, but I don’t know if it’s too unfair to describe her this way.

  11. 11
    Amir Khalid says:

    @B.B.A.:

    Harris is by far the most electable candidate we have.

    Right now, no one knows that; no one can know that.

  12. 12
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Boom

    Kamala Harris @ KamalaHarris
    I sat through those hearings. Brett Kavanaugh lied to the U.S. Senate and most importantly to the American people. He was put on the Court through a sham process and his place on the Court is an insult to the pursuit of truth and justice.

    He must be impeached.

    not that I expect the world to tremble, but good for her for saying it directly and early

  13. 13
    Jess says:

    I liked how EW applauded her address to Trump–I didn’t see any of the others doing so. I wish I could warm up to KH more. She always seems too carefully rehearsed and stiff to me. I think she’s worthy, but I just can’t feel it.

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  15. 15
    Another Scott says:

    @Baud: It’s a minor thing, but the framing rubs me the wrong way.

    In the text in that tweet, Harris says “we’ve neglected to support working families” and elaborates on teacher pay (proposing a substantial federal contribution to teacher salaries) and equal pay for equal work.

    There’s no doubt that teachers aren’t paid enough, and they pay for things that they shouldn’t (I saw several area teachers buying school supplies at Target a few weeks ago). It’s great she’s talking about it. But there’s some question how a federal plus-up of teacher salaries would work (public schools are generally a state-and-local thing).

    But who is fighting equal-pay-for-equal-work? It’s companies and corporations.

    Similarly, Warren has been fighting to address issues that affect families for a very long time:

    Warren’s foray into bankruptcy was the first step in a four-decade journey that has come to define her public profile and shape her politics. As a law professor, prominent bankruptcy expert, consumer watchdog, Massachusetts senator and Democratic presidential candidate, Warren has consistently championed economic reforms – with mixed results – to boost the middle class.

    “The American middle class was in a lot more trouble than anyone had previously thought,” she told the Associated Press, describing her bankruptcy research, “and year by year, the stories have gotten worse. … The game has become a little more tilted and a little more tilted against hardworking families.”

    Warren has been a merciless critic of credit card companies, big banks, lobbyists and Wall Street financiers, blaming them for policies and practices she has labeled as predatory, greedy or corrupt. At the same time, she cites her bankruptcy studies for revealing the real damage caused by these economic forces. It ultimately led to her prescient warnings about the economic collapse of 2008. And she continues to cite her focus on the middle class as she warns of another on the horizon.

    “I’ve spent most of my career getting to the bottom of what’s happening to working families in America,” Warren recently wrote in a post titled “The Coming Economic Crash and How to Stop It.”

    Warren once explained to one of her Harvard Law School students why she liked bankruptcy law. U.S. Rep. Joe Kennedy III, a Massachusetts Democrat and Warren supporter, recalls the senator telling him bankruptcy was about second chances and “the way in which people can get to pick themselves up and we help them start again after they fall.”

    Liz isn’t just railing against Wall Street. She sees how these things work in the trenches.

    Lumping Warren and Sanders together as being different from Harris is unfair. Harris also implicitly argues that corporations are holding people down.

    Like I said, ultimately it’s a minor thing. Harris and Warren aren’t that different in the policies they’d pursue, the type of advisors they’d pick, etc. Wilmer’s a whole different kettle of fish…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  16. 16
    MomSense says:

    I bring up the candidates all the time with people who aren’t political junkies but who do vote in presidential elections. One of the things I hear about Elizabeth Warren that I think will Bev very hard to counter is that their understanding of the Native American controversy is that she used that identity to get advantage. They see it in a took advantage of affirmative action. Now I can spend 15-20 minutes explaining that’s not the case but that’s only if I get a one on one opportunity to do that. I am genuinely concerned that this issue will be the but her emails if she is our nominee.

    The big issue with Harris is the “she’s a cop” distortions of her record from the Sanders, Gabbard, Intercept, Russian bot corner. It may be unfair and it may hurt her with some demographics in the Democratic primary but I don’t think it hurts her in the general. Sadly lawn order is still very popular so the distortion of her record I don’t think hurts her in the general especially since the idea of prosecuting the case against the policies and the corruption of the trump family and administration will win over those who may have qualms about her during the primary.

    I have my own personal feelings like I honestly believe being 70+ is a problem. I also think Warren’s skill set is much more suited to the Senate. Her trade policies are a huge problem for me as well since she agreed with trump in TPP and tariffs and the tariffs have been very bad for farming and manufacturing. The economy is going to be a problem for trump by the time the election happens and Warren removes that entire line of attack.

    Biden is not good at campaigning. Bernie is awful. I think Harris is our best chance at winning the general.

  17. 17

    I laughed out loud when she said she became a prosecutor to change the system from within. It’s a good line but even a cursory examination of her record shows her as a completely normal prosecutor with some progressive policies, and some bad ones too, nothing really system-changing.

  18. 18
    Mandalay says:

    @Jess:

    She always seems too carefully rehearsed and stiff to me.

    I don’t know about her seeming stiff, but her one liners are rarely well delivered. It’s as though she has all these prepared zingers in her head that she knows she needs to lob out there during the debate (Hey Joe, instead of saying, “No we can’t” let’s say, ‘Yes we can”!), but she doesn’t pick the right moment, and they come across as scripted, and fall a bit flat.

    But in the scheme of things I suppose that’s no biggie, and we certainly want a candidate who is “carefully rehearsed”.

  19. 19
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    What if it weren’t the job of individual, underpaid women to report their employers for gender-based pay discrimination? What if the burden were instead on companies to proactively pay women equally, or face financial consequences?

    Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA) on Monday announced a plan to do just that, in what her campaign is calling “the most aggressive equal pay proposal in history.”

    With her proposal, Harris shifts responsibility for closing the pay gap from the vulnerable to the culpable. Rather than place the burden on the underpaid employee to determine that she is being paid less than her male peers, Harris’ plan would preempt the problem by requiring companies with at least 100 employees to get an “equal pay certification” within three years of the law’s enactment and every two years after that.

    Think Progress article – can’t embed the link for some reason.

  20. 20

    @MomSense: every top-tier candidate has a “butter emails”-level meme ready to go. Biden is old and tired, and they can always fall back on simply reminding us of his foreign policy greatest hits. Warren has the Native American thing. Harris has a million things in her DA/AG record that make for terrible sound bites. Sanders has a million things in his record that make for commie sound bites, though he seems to be good at counterpunching, and I say that as somebody who doesn’t like him.

    Second-tier, Beto wants to take your guns. Buttigieg is a little harder to pigeonhole, but I’d guess they’ll try to find a way to make “fired the black chief of police” into an all-consuming scandal, plus he’s just young and gay. Booker you can lean on innuendo about his personal life.

  21. 21
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Wow, you’re cynical.

  22. 22
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Memes aren’t everything.

    What’s gonna turn out the vote in November? The opportunity to vote against Donald Trump. I hear that women in the suburbs, among others, can’t wait to send his ass packing!

  23. 23
    Elizabelle says:

    @MomSense:

    The economy is going to be a problem for trump by the time the election happens and Warren removes that entire line of attack.

    I could not agree less there. The Two Income Trap? The CFPB? Elizabeth Warren is only about tariffs? Really? I don’t think so. it is one part of her very serious and expansive experience. Elizabeth Warren is great on economic issues, and she’s not a one-trick pony.

    I think she is plenty vigorous for a full 4 year term. I would love to see Warren/Harris, with Harris in 2024.

    We have so much work ahead of us, to recover from Trump and his cronies.

  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    My reaction too. He’s usually not.

    Primary season is too long.

  25. 25
    MomSense says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I have never seen a general election where tough on crime is a problem. We may wish it were, but I don’t think it will be.

  26. 26

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    Memes aren’t everything.

    Exactly, which is why I rattled off a bunch—there’s no sense worrying about what dumb shit the GOP industrial complex will rally around.

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    Wow, you’re cynical.

    I mean… yes?

  27. 27
    debbie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    No one has more of that than Trump himself and yet it didn’t hurt with his supporters. It’s up to us as supporters to avoid letting it hurt them too.

  28. 28
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I think it was from her one woman show, Lily Tomlin said: No matter how cynical you get, you can’t keep up.

  29. 29

    @MomSense:

    I have never seen a general election where tough on crime is a problem. We may wish it were, but I don’t think it will be.

    I’m talking about things like the KQED headline i saw the other day, “As DA, Kamala Harris Prosecuted a Mentally Ill Woman Shot by Police. The Jury Didn’t Buy It” (https://www.kqed.org/news/11773617/as-da-kamala-harris-prosecuted-a-mentally-ill-woman-shot-by-police-the-jury-didnt-buy-it)

    I try to be even-handed about the candidates but we’re in for a lot of articles like that. Everybody has easy-to-meme baggage; that’s hers.

  30. 30
    MomSense says:

    I want a candidate who can go after trump for what tariffs have done to farming, fishing, logging, auto and motorcycle manufacturing, the cost of consumer goods. It’s a huge line of attack and I do t think championing the CFPB (which has been decimated under trump) is going to cut it.

  31. 31
    MomSense says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Also I think the single term idea has always been terrible. Let’s elect someone who is a lame duck from the outset has never made any sense to me.

  32. 32
    zhena gogolia says:

    @MomSense:

    I agree with you.

  33. 33
    debbie says:

    I won’t link to aol, but the AP is reporting that Sanders is taking some time off to rest his voice.

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  35. 35
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Baud:

    Yes, awful idea.

    I have to say, though, that watching Colbert with the Biden Victrola clip, even though he was bumbling, he made me feel good. He’s comforting.

  36. 36
    Betty Cracker says:

    @MomSense: Every Democrat has the standing to do that, including Warren and even non-Democrat Sanders.

  37. 37
    Baud says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    We’ll know from polling in a couple of weeks time how the candidates did. Everything else is just people talking out of their asses.

  38. 38
    Kathleen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: The media always give Sanders a pass. They won’t let anything stick to him. With regard to Warren, my biggest concerns with her in the general are 1) African American support 2) “Socialist” smear. “Socialist” could have more traction in general than the Native American issue.

  39. 39
    Yarrow says:

    @MomSense: Pretty much agree with all of this. My issue re: the Pocahontas thing is that it seems like she took Trump’s bait. She got the DNA test to prove him wrong and then retorted to him that he had to donate something or whatever he said he’d do. It seemed they she and her team felt they’d “won” and then it all came crashing down.

  40. 40
    B.B.A. says:

    @debbie: “some time”, like maybe a year or ten? we can only hope.

  41. 41
    Yarrow says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I think she is plenty vigorous for a full 4 year term. I would love to see Warren/Harris, with Harris in 2024.

    I think that’s incredibly naive. If any Democrat serves only one term and steps aside it’s an open election. Whatever the Republican party looks like at that point will be scorched earth to win. It’s much easier to win in an open election than against an incumbent (something we need to remember for 2020, even when that incumbent is Trump.) Whoever we nominate, we need them to be able to serve two terms.

  42. 42

    @Kathleen: I anticipate Warren emphasizing ‘responsible capitalism’ like she’s always done, once she can safely pivot in that rhetorical direction.

    African-American voters, in current polling, like Biden overwhelmingly, then Warren/Sanders, then Harris. It’s early days, but when one candidate is pulling half the AA vote, it seems disingenuous to criticize one member of the rest of the evenly-ish-split-field as not having AA support.

  43. 43

    I love it that she answers the question she wants to answer, not the shoeboxes the media try to shove her into.

  44. 44
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @germy: I admit it sounds ridiculous, but what do you make of the DE NAACP guy down in the twitter thread confirming Biden’s story and that the guy was actually named Corn Pop?

  45. 45
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MomSense: First off, there is no such thing as completely free trade. Support for “free trade” is really just support for a general policy of lowering restrictions on international trade. In my view, it also means being skeptical toward the use of trade sanctions to advance other and, and on particular, non-economic policy goals. Second, one doesn’t have to be a committed “free trader: to effectively oppose Trump’s tariffs. We are in Obama’s not a pacific but oppose dumb wars territory here.

  46. 46
    Kathleen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: FFS I was not criticizing. I was merely pointing out a concern. I’m well aware that right now African American support seems to be fluid.

  47. 47
    MomSense says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Sanders and Warren made statements in support of the tariffs and against TPP and NAFTA. I think it will make it very tough for them to go after it in part because of the way the media will ask them about it. Republicans can be erratic, inconsistent, and offensive without facing much, if any, media push back. Democrats cannot. They will be asked about it as being a policy they supported and it will get so that they will have to drop it because it will bring more trouble than benefit. Warren did a to. If fundraising off of her criticism of Obama and TPP. It has just enough Democrats divided to hold the media’s attention.

  48. 48

    @Kathleen: sorry, I realize now that it sounds like I called you disingenuous! I should’ve written that it’s not a criticism I understand, since it seems to be selectively applied.

    @Cheryl Rofer: me too.

    @Omnes Omnibus: one also does not (usually) need a trade agreement to trade with a country, which seems to get lost in these discussions.

  49. 49
    Kathleen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Thank you. I appreciate your apology.

  50. 50
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Yarrow: Completely OT: Did you see that Gareth Thomas announced that he has HIV yesterday? Apparently, some people were trying to blackmail him, and he announced to cut the legs out from under them. He’s been getting medical care for it for a number of years and currently the virus is no longer detectable in tests. Both Wales and the rugby community like they have his back.

  51. 51
    germy says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Sounds like he’s repeating Joe’s story.

  52. 52
    Elizabelle says:

    @Yarrow: I said that more to mollify MomSense.

    President Elizabeth Warren for 8 years! Or President Kamala Harris. Good with either.

    I realize the presidency is incredibly ageing, when the responsibilities are handled adequately. I think Elizabeth Warren has lots of vigor and work to get done. As do most of our Democratic candidates.

    I don’t come to Balloon Juice to tear Democratic** candidates down. I will not participate in that. Dog knows, the MSM is primed to do that. (Looks like Maureen Dowd has that bone out today; will not click on her link.)

    ** Actual Democrats. Does not apply to Bernie or Tulsi.

  53. 53

    @Elizabelle:

    Looks like Maureen Dowd has that bone out today; will not click on her link

    Don’t. I couldn’t help myself, and… it’s not even worth mocking.

  54. 54
    Baud says:

    @Elizabelle:
    @Major Major Major Major:

    I never read her for obvious reasons, but what was the subject?

  55. 55
    MomSense says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m basing my concerns on what it will be like to be on the phone with voters. In 2015 when the emails story broke and Cole posted it here, I predicted the media would latch onto it and would blow it all out of proportion. Then I fell in love with Hillz and was all in. She probably would have overcome it without the stupid media, the Russians, Sanders, and Comey but I think we have to assume that the interference will be worse this year and that there will be more bad actors joining in.

    Her recipe entries, bar registration cards, and other things are all over the internet and they aren’t good to start with, but boy will they be useful for sowing discord.

  56. 56
    debbie says:

    @MomSense:

    The CFPB is not decimated. For all Mulvaney’s talk, it’s still named the CFPB, not the FCPB. In addition, it wasn’t Congress who uncovered Wells Fargo’s scams on their own customers.

  57. 57
    Yarrow says:

    @germy: @Ceci n est pas mon nym: There’s a WaPo story from July about Biden’s early years in Wilmington. Corn Pop was real.

    The pool back then had become overrun by neighborhood gangs, like the 13th Street Stompers, the Hornets and the Romans.

    They loved pranking Biden. The cost to enter the pool was 10 cents, but a tiny, smack-talking teenager known as Corn Pop wanted to try a way to get his friends in free: distract the white lifeguard.

    Corn Pop got Biden’s attention by talking about his mother, Smith recalled. Biden blew his whistle and demanded Corn Pop show him some respect. Meanwhile, Corn Pop’s friends jumped the fence, hopped into the water and laughed over their declared victory.

    “They were testing him,” recalled Maurice Pritchett, known as Marty, who served as a lifeguard on the shift with Biden. “He had to earn their respect.”

  58. 58

    @Baud: I honestly don’t even remember, and I read it like an hour ago.

  59. 59
    Gex says:

    @Jess: I would never hold that carefulness against a black candidate. They cannot afford the kind of gaffes that everyone chuckles and moves past when Biden does it.

  60. 60
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    As a Senate candidate in 2016, Harris opposed the Trans-Pacific Partnership, or TPP, arguing that the proposed trade deal with 11 Asian countries didn’t do enough to protect workers and environmental regulations.

    So exactly the same as Sanders and Warren.

    The only (top tier) candidate who said they would re-enter TPP is Biden. I will bet 5 dollars that not one of the top three will defend NAFTA. Beto might- it was good for Texas- but he’s not top three.

  61. 61
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MomSense:

    Her recipe entries, bar registration cards, and other things are all over the internet and they aren’t good to start with, but boy will they be useful for sowing discord.

    What does this have to do with trade policy?

  62. 62
    Yarrow says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: No, I’d missed that. Very busy day yesterday. Not surprised the rugby community and Wales especially have his back. Glad he got/is getting treatment and is doing so well. Such a class player and person.

    That’s terrible that people were going to blackmail him over it. He’s been out for a decade so it’s not like they were outing him. It’s a terrible violation of medical privacy.

  63. 63
    MomSense says:

    @debbie:

    Well tell that to my kid who was getting scammed on one of his student loans. They shut down the entire division that used to handle those complaints.

  64. 64
    debbie says:

    It’s not like any of these candidates will need to have the endurance to run the country by themselves for 8 years. They will pick very smart, capable people and everyone will work as a team — unlike the clunkers in the current administration.

  65. 65
    Brachiator says:

    @MomSense:

    One of the things I hear about Elizabeth Warren that I think will Bev very hard to counter is that their understanding of the Native American controversy is that she used that identity to get advantage. They see it in a took advantage of affirmative action.

    I think this controversy is nonsense, but I agree with you that this could be a problem if voters insist on looking at it this way. It feeds resentment about affirmative action and the lie that unworthy non-whites get all the breaks while real patriotic salt of the Earth heartland white people get screwed over by the Washington elite.

    BTW, I think that the Democrats can fight off this attack and others noted here, but I think it useful to have accurate assessments of how people are viewing the candidates.

  66. 66
    Another Scott says:

    @Kay: I’m willing to bet that any Democrat elected will find a way to rejoin TPP. It’s too important to stay out. They’ll find a way to modify at least some of the bad/insufficiently good provisions, declare victory, and move on.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  67. 67
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Yarrow:

    He’s been out for a decade so it’s not like they were outing him. It’s a terrible violation of medical privacy.

    Yes, he even played for a couple of seasons after coming out. I hope that whoever tried it on with him gets pummeled for it.

  68. 68
    debbie says:

    @MomSense:

    Seems more like DeVos is the problem, not that the division has been shut down.

    Has your son contacted the state AG to file a complaint?

  69. 69
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    I know Harris was against TPP, so was Hillary. It was a mistake. I said so at the time. In my opinion, blaming trade deals for loss of manufacturing has always been a cop out because the alternative is for Democrats to have to face that our values are in conflict. The clean water and air acts and improved OSHA and tax laws are what killed manufacturing. Hell the best manufacturing jobs in Maine are building naval destroyers which conflicts with our values about the military industrial complex.
    I’m talking more about tariffs. Warren and Sanders both supported tariffs. Tariffs have been a disaster for farming, fishing,logging, manufacturing, and the cost of consumer goods. That is a strong line of attack against trump that won’t work well coming from Warren or Sanders.

  70. 70
    Yarrow says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Me too. I don’t know what the HIPAA-equivalent is in the UK but I’d think there would be something to protect patient privacy. I suppose it could be a former friend or manager or someone like that who he told personally who wanted some money. Just awful.

    @Elizabelle: I don’t tear down Dem candidates either. I do think it’s naive to ignore issues that may be a problem once we get to the general election. It’s important to be clear-eyed when looking at candidate strengths and weaknesses. We can do that without tearing down candidates but sometimes people see honest discussions as tearing down. Or discussions veer that way.

  71. 71
    Kay says:

    This to me is Harris’ real vulnerability:

    The TPP was one of the hottest issues in politics during Harris’s 2016 Senate campaign, and Harris initially declined to take a firm stance on it: “We want to strike a balance that allows America’s economy to prosper, and that’s going to be about our workers and our businesses,” she said in April 2015, neither endorsing nor really opposing the trade deal. But once Rep. Loretta Sanchez, a fierce TPP critic, entered the race against her, Harris came out against the trade pact, stating it did not adequately protect US workers or the environment.

    She does this a lot. She backtracks. She has the least-defined trade position of the top 5 candidates and you start to get the sense that’s deliberate, and not just on trade, on a lot of things.

  72. 72
    Ruckus says:

    @MomSense:

    I have my own personal feelings like I honestly believe being 70+ is a problem. I also think Warren’s skill set is much more suited to the Senate. Her trade policies are a huge problem for me as well since she agreed with trump in TPP and tariffs and the tariffs have been very bad for farming and manufacturing. The economy is going to be a problem for trump by the time the election happens and Warren removes that entire line of attack.

    I’ve stated my views on exactly this several times. I like Harris. She is more “professional.” Warren is more augmentative – in a good way but she sounds like the teacher with a kid up in front of the room, explaining. She doesn’t sound like she’s belittling at all but it feels almost like she is. If you are listening it’s the explanation you hear. If you are somewhat tuned out it might sound almost like scolding. So we won’t hear it that way, because we are listening and interested, someone who really is not……. Now on the other hand maybe most people will be listening, because she says things properly and intelligently. But then I come to her age. She and I are less than a month different in age. People/doctors tell me I don’t look my age and seem far more fit that most my age. But I just found out a week ago that I have an inoperable aneurysm and a condition that can render me unable to balance or see, which may never return or it may be an ongoing event. No one knows. And the two are not connected. At our age things like this are quite possible and probable. And yes they can happen to anyone at any age. They are just more likely as we age. Now Warren does seem invincible but none of us are. She may be that rare individual who ages much better than the rest of us. Many of us know someone like this, even if we don’t realize that they are different in a rather uncommon way. I hope she is, none of us want the far more normal. For us or almost anyone else.

  73. 73
    Booker19 says:

    Isn’t Warren performing better than Harris with AAs? If you are concerned with Warren’s ability to reach AAs, then certainly you are also concerned about Harris on this issue as well. I love the both of them and think they will both be great candidates and reach AAs if they emerge as the nominee.

  74. 74
  75. 75
    Brachiator says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    @MomSense:

    Second, one doesn’t have to be a committed “free trader: to effectively oppose Trump’s tariffs

    There have been a number of recent business news articles pointing out that Trump’s trade policies are incoherent and have hurt Americans more than they have helped them. Trump’s claim that he is a master dealmaker is empty. The Democrats should be able to kick GOP butt on this issue.

  76. 76

    @Major Major Major Major: She was getting jealous of all the attention Bret Stephens was getting.

  77. 77
    MomSense says:

    @Ruckus:

    I’m really sorry about the aneurysm. I hope that it doesn’t progress and you keep your sight and balance.

  78. 78
    Booker19 says:

    Regarding the Native American issue with Warren, the matter received quite a lot of press and amplification by Trump. One could argue that it pretty well baked into the public perception of Warren. And despite that she still remains among the most popular candidates with the voting public (not just democrats). Well aware that Trump and the media will hammer on this again, but we might be a little bit too afraid of the repercussions here.

  79. 79
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    They all do that a lot. Clinton did it on TPP because of Sanders. Obama and Clinton both did it in on trade in 2007. We may not like the backtracking but it’s pretty standard.

  80. 80
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    I don’t think the centrist trade Democrats have a coherent policy. They need one. They can’t just say what Democrats have said for 30 years – we have to strike a balance. No one buys that anymore. The majority of TPP votes came from Republicans. That’s THEIR trade policy. What is the Democrats? They have to get one! The liberals in the race have one- people don’t have to like it but at least they have one and it really isn’t as simplistic as “manufacturing jobs”. The big changes in TPP would have come in agriculture.

    I feel like this started with her backtracking from being a prosecutor, which is her campaign slogan- “for the people”. I think she should have said “I’m proud I was a prosecutor and I’m not going to pretend it’s a progressive policy job, because it’s not”

    I don’t have any problem with her being a prosecutor. I think it’s insane to say black people can’t be prosecutors. Insane and harmful, to black people. I want her to stick with something when it’s attacked.

  81. 81

    @Ruckus: That sounds rough. Can you get a second opinion.

  82. 82

    @MomSense: Do they really want the US to devolve into a mercantile economy, all these tariff supporters? T is an idiot but what is Warren’s and Harris’s excuse. Our candidates don’t have to follow the Pied Piper of Vt to the deep left end.

  83. 83
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    Oh, you’re telling me Obama did it. Obama RAN against Hillary Clinton on trade. Complete bullshit.

    They have to stop. Make the case for their trade policy. Stop trying to bamboozle people. It won’t work anymore anyway. Trump doesn’t have a trade policy. He has stupid lashing out. Liberal free traders NEED ONE. They’ve needed one for decades, but they were too arrogant to even bother selling it. Now they have to sell it.

  84. 84
    Brachiator says:

    @Ruckus:

    …but she sounds like the teacher with a kid up in front of the room, explaining. She doesn’t sound like she’s belittling at all but it feels almost like she is. If you are listening it’s the explanation you hear. If you are somewhat tuned out it might sound almost like scolding

    Women get this more than men. It’s stupid and unfair and I don’t know the answer to this. I would hear conservative talk radio hosts, men and women, constantly complain about Hillary Clinton’s voice. Ironically, the conservative women who participate in this foolish criticism don’t seem to realize that they undermine their own participation in the workplace and in politics. Men mock them, too.

    I agree with all your points about age. But Warren seems vigorous, so I am not much worried about her.

  85. 85
    debbie says:

    @Ruckus:

    That had to be tough to hear. I’m rooting for “may never return.”

  86. 86
    Yarrow says:

    @Ruckus: Sorry to hear about the aneurysm. That sounds tough. Is there any treatment so you can at least maintain?

  87. 87
    debbie says:

    @MomSense:

    I still think CFPB will outlast Trump and his Gang of Assholes.

  88. 88
    Yarrow says:

    @Kay: It works much better to stand up for one’s record and be proud of it. People respond to that. Backtracking and seeming to apologize for it doesn’t resonate well with people. It comes across as weak and wishy-washy and people feel that.

  89. 89
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    She’s not going to do federally mandated public school integration with busing. None of them are. So why attack Biden on his opposition to it? She had to backtrack because of course she did. She wants to ban assault weapons, just like Beto. So how does she get them? Or is it a ban going forward? She’s already got a ban on “importing” them. She’s going to have to commit to some of these positions, and she will be attacked for them.

  90. 90

    @Kay: we’ve been implementing neocon trade policy that got liberal votes. “The Chinese will greet American capitalists as liberators” didn’t work out so well. The liberal free traders have a policy—tax and redistribute and retrain—but there are only like seven of them.

  91. 91
    Kay says:

    @Yarrow:

    A prosecutor is pro-prosecution? No shit. I would have defended the school absence policy. California has more process in place for parents in the case of truants than any state I have ever seen. I looked it up. It’s a FOUR PART code section just to get to the misdemeanor! If you are going to jail because your kid missed schools that means you went thru that whole process and STILL couldn’t get the kid to school. We’re talking about what must be an entire year of hearings, interventions, assistance before they even get to a prosecutor. Defend it! Kids need to be in school! I back her 100% on it.

  92. 92
    mad citizen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I read her book. I’m sure that she effected more change from within than if she had not been a prosecutor. I don’t have much knowledge of what prosecutors do, but she seemed to have created and drove to completion a number of innovative programs in SF and as Cal AG.

  93. 93
    Elizabelle says:

    @Ruckus:

    I just found out a week ago that I have an inoperable aneurysm and a condition that can render me unable to balance or see, which may never return or it may be an ongoing event. No one knows.

    Knowledge is useful. Now they know to watch it. I hope it was a one-off and will not be a problem going forward.

  94. 94

    @mad citizen:

    I read her book. I’m sure that she effected more change from within than if she had not been a prosecutor. I don’t have much knowledge of what prosecutors do, but she seemed to have created and drove to completion a number of innovative programs in SF and as Cal AG.

    The main criminal justice innovations in California that were under discussion during her tenure—legal marijuana and ending cash bail—she opposed. Again, she implemented some progressive policies, and made some bad decisions too, but I haven’t seen anything about changing the system from within. It’s a silly deflection, especially since her conclusion was (IIRC) that she failed, but now she can do it for real.

  95. 95
    Kay says:

    @Yarrow:

    Harris was also (rightly!) responding to what is now a ton of research that says kids who miss a lot of school do not do well. They don’t. It’s the single biggest in-school factor for them falling behind, not being there. It compounds, too, because they miss content and then when they DO get there they are ashamed and feel stupid because they can’t catch up.
    Obama’s second secretary of ed, not Duncan. the next one, was AA and HE did a whole “get them to school” push.
    She can’t just avoid controversy by keeping these positions fluid. That won’t work going forward.

  96. 96
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    Honestly I don’t think she attacked Biden on busing. She said she was hurt because of what he said about working with two segregationist Senators – the issue he joined them in was busing and she made it personal because it was. Biden should have just apologized. A lot of people were very upset about what he said about working with those Senators. Booker attacked him for it far more than Harris did.

    Here’s the thing, I’m going to vote for the Dem nominee. I’m going to work my ass off like I do every election. We have to be able to discuss the realities of this election, though. The odds are not in our favor. Between the value of incumbency, and the electoral college, there is a very good chance he will be re-elected. If the economy crashes, our chances improve. I’m looking at this based on the places we need to win. Much as I am not a Biden fan, he may very well be our best chance. Some of the places we have to win are older, whiter, and more conservative. He was Obama’s validator in those places. He basically campaigned in those places vouching for Obama.

    Locally we have a bunch of really young voters and aging hippies who are already sounding the not voting if it isn’t Bernie. It’s a problem. Nina Turner has been here. Sanders has been here. His supporters have kind of taken over the committee structure in a lot of places. It’s looking like it will get ugly.

    If we choose Warren Sanders or Biden I have to go all in on campaigning for them, but I’m not going to just go along with it now. I think we are facing some big obstacles in the general.

  97. 97
    MomSense says:

    @debbie:

    I think it will, too if we get a democratic administration in 2021. I’m just saying it’s not working well now and isn’t the selling point it should be.

  98. 98
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Some of changing a prosecutor’s office is simply changing some priorities. Prosecutors resources are not unlimited, so choosing one thing over another can have major effects. To be fair though, that kind of change only lasts while the particular person who set the priorities is in office.

  99. 99
    James E Powell says:

    @Brachiator:

    The Democrats should be able to kick GOP butt on this issue.

    International trade is difficult for Democrats because the various elements of our coalition have conflicting views on the subject.

  100. 100
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    Obama said he was against trade and then it came out his campaign said something else to the Canadians behind the scenes. And then Clinton pounced on that and then tried to distance herself from Bill.

    ETA- you can google it, Kay.

  101. 101
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MomSense:

    against trade

    I am sorry; no one is against trade.

  102. 102
    Another Scott says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Tariffs have a place. Obama used them against Chinese tires and lots of other things.

    The issue isn’t tariffs or no tariffs. The issue is Donnie is throwing up tariffs on everything he can in an attempt to extort personal concessions from other countries to increase his financial and political power. It’s not what the US trade laws are for. Steel and aluminum from NATO countries are not a national security threat. (groucho-roll-eyes.gif) Etc. He’s abusing his authority and damaging the USA (and the world). That’s why Donnie’s tariffs are bad. Democrats won’t abuse that authority that way, but need to have the authority to protect vital segments of the economy from (genuine) dumping and all the rest.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  103. 103
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    But the next question after that attack (which she got) was what would be YOUR plan for integration of public schools?

    Maybe she regrets backing Bernie on barring private insurance. But she’s going to be asked and she WAS asked and she had to backtrack. Tariffs are how we (theoretically) enforce trade deals because these are sovereign countries and they don’t actually have to do any of these things. If she’s not using tariffs then how does she enforce the human, labor and environmental side agreements? They’re unenforceable. Which is FINE, that’s been the status quo for 30 years, but she’ll have to admit that. That’s the liberal free trade argument. We’ll put some unenforceable agreements in and call it done.

  104. 104
    mad citizen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Fair enough. I’m not sure I’d call marijuana legalization a main criminal justice reform. This Vox article (first hit on google) seems balanced–mixed as you say: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/1/23/18184192/kamala-harris-president-campaign-criminal-justice-record

    The main thing I like about her and Warren is they get shit done–they are workers as well as talking the talk–which one has to do running for office.

  105. 105
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    They called it Obama’s NAFTA gate FFS.

  106. 106
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    I was there. He did it in Ohio. I was backing him in the primary but it was completely and utterly dishonest and Clinton was mad and she SHOULD have been mad. At the same time he was attacking Clinton his trade policy person was reassuring Canada they wouldn’t be backing out of NAFTA.

    My point is this is unsustainable. Democrats need a coherent trade position. They don’t have one. The liberal side of the party has one- no one else does. It would have come to a head Trump or no Trump and it DID come to a head with TPP. They have to come up with a trade policy that can be distinguished from that of Mitch McConnell.

  107. 107
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    legal marijuana and ending cash bail—she opposed

    Since those two policies are now notable features of her criminal justice reform proposal, what’s the issue here? It doesn’t sound like her opposition to these policies was very deeply ingrained, since she clearly supports them now.

  108. 108
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    They can’t get away with it anymore. Dodging and dissembling on it worked for 30 years but it stopped working. Play this out. Harris attacks Trump on tariffs. Trump (or media) say ok, how will YOU enforce trade deals? What’s the answer to that?

  109. 109
    MomSense says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I don’t know. I’ve given up. It’s an area of economic policy where we ignore the data because our values are in conflict and telling the truth about that isn’t popular.
    Tax policy had more to do with moving manufacturing than trade deals. The steel plants closed long before NAFTA.

  110. 110
    Ruckus says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Nice thing about the VA, it’s not just one doctor. I’ve talked, in the last two weeks, to ten different docs. They have talked to each other. It’s one of the things I rather enjoy about the VA, egos are sort of leveled, not as much in contention in opinions, because of the way things are organized. To me it’s comforting that medicine is the key, not personalities.
    Everybody.
    They looked at previous MRI scans, I’ve had the aneurysm for at least 2 1/2 yrs, I may have been born with it, there is no way to tell. We do know that it hasn’t changed at all in that time. Might never burst, could burst tomorrow. It is what it is. I’m alive and well now. The other thing is a symptom of a viral infection and happens more often than I would have imagined. Can be from a lot of sources, one of which is the same virus that causes shingles. Which of course I have that, because chickenpox had no immunization until what 35 yrs ago. I said the other day that medicine has changed very dramatically over my 70 yrs. Things that didn’t exist then, organ or joint replacement for example, are routine today, as are many medications that really do save lives. But medicine can not solve everything, nor will it ever be able to. This condition normally resolves itself but sometimes is becomes chronic. So far so good, no relapses but my hearing on one side is effected. And that hasn’t changed. Life as an old can be boring, but rarely is just counting the days.
    I do thank all of you for your concerns, it is much appreciated.

    We have to go, to make room for the next generations. Our legacy is hopefully leaving the place better than when we got here. What each of us likely do will be at most only a tiny fractional bit better, just because we can only do so much, but think about how we leave the world, did we improve it or help push it along in some little way. EW wants to change our bit of the world for the better, a lot. KH wants the same and has a lot of good ideas that will also make this a better place. They have ambition, nothing wrong with that. Neither wants to make it supposedly better for just 1 or 2 percent of the population, and neither should we, because that 1 or 2 percent don’t make it better for anyone but themselves, they work on not making it better.

  111. 111
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    It didn’t really work for Obama. It worked for two elections but he didn’t come thru on his trade promises and the people he promised were mad that he didn’t. Honestly, it wasn’t just “not coming thru”. It was his refusal to even ADDRESS their (legitimate) concerns. He couldn’t get Democrats in the Senate to vote for his trade deal. Corey Booker didn’t even vote for it and he’s a free trader. Obama’s a good explainer. He could have finally, finally made the liberal case for that deal, but he refused to even engage with Warren or Sherrod Brown or Sanders on it. He should have.

  112. 112
    Another Scott says:

    @Kay: I remember our previous discussions about TPP at the time, and I continue to think that you’re too hard on him and the party on this. Obama “evolved” on a lot of issues over time, as all good politicians do. It’s part of politics.

    Trade is complex and trade-laws moreso. The Obama Administration had lots and lots of web pages and reports, talking heads on the TV shows, answers in interviews, and all the rest about the TPP and what it was going to do and how it was good for America and better than many/most/all previous trade agreements. It wasn’t that he didn’t have a policy on trade that he didn’t enunciate.

    As I said before, I suspect we’ll eventually join it (or something very much like it but maybe under a different name) because it’s important for economic and geopolitical reasons (wrt China).

    If Democrats need a coherent soundbite on the issue I would say something like:

    “Democrats recognize the world is changing and that the US’s 5% of the population isn’t the behemoth in the world economy that we used to be. We welcome and support economic advancement around the world because a prosperous world is a healthy, sa[f]e, and secure world. We will continue to fight to support the interests of the American people in the world marketplace and be smart about using our powers in international bodies like the WTO, NAFTA, and other international agreements to push for fair[]ness, transparency, and the rule of law in international relations. We will not tolerate dumping, stealing of intellectual property, theft, and abuse of workers and the environment and we will do all that we can to codify those ideals into law…”

    A bit too much for a bumper sticker, but you get the idea.

    The contrast with Donnie’s GOP couldn’t be more stark (see my comment above about Donnie shaking down trading partners, etc.).

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  113. 113
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    Ok but I was saying that all the politicians back track – that was the argument I was responding to and my recollection of the Obama campaign backtracking and trying to have it both ways was accurate, not bullshit.

    I think opposing NAFTA and TPP is also dishonest. We net a lot more jobs than we lose and the tariffs have cost us the very kinds of jobs the protectionist say they are trying to protect.

    Also, Warren is going to have to backtrack significantly on her Medicare only, no private insurance companies in 4 years or she will lose a lot of people. It’s not popular. And at some point she is going to have to be honest about the funding.

    They are all politicians. They are all backtracking. They are all promoting policies atgat are unsustainable.

    I would love it if people commenting here would share what non jackal, not as political, people say to them about the Democratic candidates. Maybe I am living in an unusual place, but I don’t think that’s the case. I’m genuinely concerned.

  114. 114

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    Since those two policies are now notable features of her criminal justice reform proposal, what’s the issue here? It doesn’t sound like her opposition to these policies was very deeply ingrained, since she clearly supports them now.

    Dunno why you assume it’s her former position that wasn’t deeply ingrained, rather than her current politically expedient one. At any rate, we’re discussing what she did as a prosecutor, while “trying to change the system from within.”

  115. 115
    MomSense says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I was referring to NAFTA, but whatever. You do you.

  116. 116
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Major Major Major Major: She’s running for President now. This is the agenda she’s choosing to run on.

  117. 117
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Major Major Major Major: And how is ending cash bail “politically expedient”?

  118. 118
    Chyron HR says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    SKREEEEE WHICH HILLARY KAMALA????

  119. 119
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MomSense: Anti-trade is a bad shorthand term. It is like calling anti-abortion people pro-life.

  120. 120

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: she’s running in the democratic primary, and it’s part of established democratic criminal justice reforms, as it was when she opposed it.

  121. 121
    Ruckus says:

    @Brachiator:

    Women get this more than men. It’s stupid and unfair and I don’t know the answer to this.

    We know the answer. All of us need to be better. Many of us are, some never will be. This takes time, far more than one lifetime. But it needs to be a priority of all of us. That doesn’t mean all of us will change, just that we at least need to try. Well over 63 million of us voted for a woman who, as you said, got mercilessly spammed for sounding shrill. She didn’t of course but she got spammed for it by disingenuous people who wanted to fuck her over every chance they got, because. And any woman will again, just because. I don’t care, the best candidates are women, strong intelligent women. We need to improve our government, now far, far more than ever. Either of the two, EW or KH would be great at the job, they have the skills, they have the desire, I will quite gladly work and vote for either one. KH is my fav but EW is only one small step behind her.

  122. 122
    MomSense says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Hey did you guys know that the weird limbo we are in because marijuana is legal in some states but not federally causes some fucked up issues?
    There is a whole new business that has developed of blackwater lite security firms that move the product and the money (not at the same time because that gets you in trouble with federal trafficking laws) in motorcades with security vehicles and tons of weapons? It’s true. I bumped into it recently. Then there’s the weird limbo situation where marijuana growers can’t deposit their proceeds in FDIC insured banks. Some credit unions will accept the funds but it’s a slow process. So lots of cash is changing hands in ways that are not always transparent.

    I support legalization but it’s not without problems when it’s legal in a state and not federally.

  123. 123
    MomSense says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m also just typing on a stupid phone and feeling again like the odd one out here.

  124. 124
    James E Powell says:

    @MomSense:

    Tax policy had more to do with moving manufacturing than trade deals. The steel plants closed long before NAFTA.

    All this time I thought manufacturing left the country for cheap labor and no environmental laws.

  125. 125
    Kelly says:

    @Ruckus:

    She doesn’t sound like she’s belittling at all but it feels almost like she is. If you are listening it’s the explanation you hear. If you are somewhat tuned out it might sound almost like scolding.

    I resemble that remark. Throughout my career as a mainframe IT programmer my fellow techies found my manner of speaking methodical and thorough. Many non-techies found me tedious and arrogant.

  126. 126
    Kay says:

    NOT that she’s asking me but here’s what I would do were I Harris. Go up against Biden. Be the younger, smarter, much more appealing option in the center. Take Biden out. He sucks as a candidate anyway, we will regret him, and the center lane is wide open. Stop taking the existence of Biden for granted. Make him fight for that slot.

    Bernie v Warren on the Left, Harris v Biden in the center. That should be the primary. It’s high stakes and she has to execute perfectly but it’s the way to go.

  127. 127
    ola azul says:

    @B.B.A.:

    “Electability” arguments, whether for doddering oaf Uncle Joe or impressive Kamala, are, imo, shit.

    Was Trump “electable”? “Magic 8-Ball sez no!” And yet, here we are. Even Gee-Dub (still, imo, a worse preznit than Trump, tho will freely concede that Trump’s volatility makes him *easily* capable of surpassing W’s perfidy),

    fwiw, Back the best n take yer chances. Banking on what douches and splitters reckon oughtta happen is a mug’s game.

    imo

  128. 128

    @MomSense: there are for sure major issues with it, mostly caused by the state/federal split, and unoptimized tax calculations that keep the black market alive. These are not why she opposed it.

    @Chyron HR:

    SKREEEEE WHICH HILLARY KAMALA????

    ah, now I remember why I critique every other candidate here but generally refrain from talking about Harris. I’m out; congratulations.

  129. 129
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    “Democrats are doomed.”

  130. 130
    Another Scott says:

    @James E Powell: On things like steel, I doubt that many US plants left. It’s that South Korea and Japan and eventually India and China started producing much, much more of their own over time, in more efficient, much newer plants (sometimes/often as a result of industrial policy in their home countries), and ancient USSteel plants in Middletown, OH, Gary, IN, Pittsburgh, PA, and similar spots couldn’t compete on price and quality on the final product any more. So the US plants closed.

    As long as they weren’t dumping their steel on the international market, that’s the way the economy is supposed to work. Efficiency wins, factories buy the cheaper and better raw materials, consumers get higher quality at lower prices, etc., and the buying economy wins too, if all else is equal.

    But, of course, eventually there was a glut of steel on the market so countries decided to dump it to keep their home industries going. At that point, US tariffs can be imposed to try to make the playing field more equal and keep some domestic steel production going. But eventually, US producers had to get their act together to figure out how to make money in the new environment.

    Every commodity is different, though.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  131. 131
    WereBear says:

    @Ruckus: Dear Ruckus, that’s rough.

  132. 132
    Kay says:

    Here’s how she could do it too- seniors. The obvious play would be take Biden’s AA support, but there’s other ways! Make an overt pitch for Biden’s support among older voters. She could get them. Biden is skating along in the center and that cannot stand! :)

    If Harris beats him in that lane then it’s her v one of either Warren or Sanders and there are more centrist Democrats than liberal Democrats so if she’s “center” she probably gets the whole thing. And we get rid of Biden, which is a blessing.

  133. 133
    MomSense says:

    @James E Powell:

    That too.

    I think one of the first major tax changes dealing with territorial tax/taxation on overseas profits was in 1960 62 or so. It’s been downhill since then.

  134. 134
    MomSense says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I know our former state public health official opposed legalization because the research on what marijuana does to developing brains (under age 24) is pretty scary. There are lots of reasons.

  135. 135
    Brachiator says:

    @James E Powell:

    The Democrats should be able to kick GOP butt on this issue.

    International trade is difficult for Democrats because the various elements of our coalition have conflicting views on the subject.

    Yep. This thread demonstrates how contentious this issue is.

    However, Trump has shown himself to be a total fraud with respect to trade policy. And as always, a liar. His tariffs are hurting the economy. And as with his past business deals, he keeps coming up with gimmicks and stop gaps to deal with each problem that pops up.

    It is pointless to debate what Obama or Bill Clinton should have done or didn’t do. We can get that from Bernie Sanders supporters. Trump is failing the economy today. Trump needs to go.

    As to what the Democratic policy should be. I don’t know. People here are passionately putting forth criticism, but not much clarity on what goal or outcome they think might be desirable.

  136. 136
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    I would let one of the candidates auditioning for VP/cabinet do it. Let Castro and Beto attack him. Sit on the outside and stay above it.

  137. 137
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Brachiator: Candidates can legitimately take very restrictive and/or very open trade policies. All they need to do is have a coherent idea. Trump’s policies are incoherent and insane.

  138. 138
    Ruckus says:

    @James E Powell:
    I may be closer to this than some others because I’ve owned a mfg company and work for one now. We still do a lot of mfg in this country. We no longer are as far up the food chain as we were 75 yrs ago at the end of WWII, because most of the competition was all but decimated physically. There is competition that we have to account for that didn’t even exist. For the most part we didn’t invest at the same levels as other countries because we didn’t need to and it was expensive. And many of the other countries that did had far cheaper labor costs, because ours were established, and we had labor unions, which got monetary and time concessions from owners, along with laws protecting employees. Countries with similar or better protections have similar costs today. But in many of those countries their tax laws do not reward the hoarding of money as much as ours currently does. They more reward investment, and it shows.
    It’s a complex world and all of the bits that make it up count. We have to look at and organize all of the moving bits and pieces in their relationships to all the other bits and pieces, something that Americans seem to think that only everyone else has to do, what’s known as American exceptionalism. Except we are not exceptional, we are part of the whole, like it or not. We have to learn to live within the confines of the entire planet, not just our borders.

  139. 139

    @MomSense:

    There are lots of reasons.

    Sure, but this was hers.

    “Spending two decades in court rooms, Harris believes that drug selling harms communities,” her campaign manager, Brian Brokaw, told Capitol Weekly. “Harris supports the legal use of medicinal marijuana but does not support anything beyond that.”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/amp26576642/kamala-harris-weed-marijuana-complete-guide/

    ETA: look, it’s not a big deal to change your mind, I would even encourage people to do it from time to time! Elizabeth Warren used to be a republican for fuck’s sake! Just deal with it honestly.

  140. 140
    Ascap_scab says:

    @germy:

    Joe may make up stories, but he’s AUTHENTIC so don’t anybody criticize him!!

  141. 141
    James E Powell says:

    @Another Scott:
    @Kay:

    All due respect and much love Another Scott, but that first sentence of your proposed Democratic statement would be suicide. The reason for the Democratic dishonesty and dissembling on trade that Kay laments is that the American voters, starting in 1980, made it very clear that they will not vote for any party’s candidates unless they are lied to about the economy.

    Ever since the end of the post WWII great American prosperous economy era, roughly 1948-1973, politicians have been telling American votes that: a) the end of that era was the result of federal government policies and b) we can bring back the prosperity of that era if only we elect the right person. Both of those are lies, but American voters will completely reject anyone who doesn’t treat them both as true. What’s an ambitious politician to do?

  142. 142
    Elizabelle says:

    @ola azul:

    Back the best n take yer chances. Banking on what douches and splitters reckon oughtta happen is a mug’s game.

    In agreement with you there.

  143. 143
    Brachiator says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    The main criminal justice innovations in California that were under discussion during her tenure—legal marijuana and ending cash bail—she opposed.

    A good attorney general deals with the law as presented to him or her. Legal marijuana is now the law in California. And there’s no huge innovation here, just a change in public attitude.

    Cash bail is more complicated and more controversial. People are starting to see flaws in getting rid of bail. There are good reasons why the new system is on hold and why there is a referendum for 2020 to deal with the issue. This is a true innovation with respect to criminal justice, but again whether Harris opposed or approved it really doesn’t mean very much.

  144. 144
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    It’s tricky, but this is more “appeal to” than “attack Biden”. Biden has: WWC men, senior citizens and AA’s. If she becomes the smart, appealing Biden option she’ll get two of those three. I’m to the Left of them but I accept reality. Most Democrats are in the middle. They’re only sticking with Biden because no one is giving them an option. This is cynical but she’ll get a TON of media if she’s proudly in Biden’s lane. They’re dying for a popular new centrist also.

    Who says Biden’s the bringer of Obama’s legacy? Harris can do that better than he can. She should take Obama too. Why not? Biden doesn’t own the man and he’s terrible at making Obama’s case. Harris will be good at it.

  145. 145
    MomSense says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I don’t care about politicians changing their minds. Just say you’ve changed. Warren is going to have to change in healthcare and she’s going to have to change on trade, especially her supportive comments about trump’s tariffs with China. Harris has to change on marijuana and she has to get better at answering some of the attacks on being a prosecutor. We just elected a former prosecutor/AG here in Maine. The things that made her record problematic in the Democratic primary were helpful in the general.

    The country may be liberal in the aggregate on many issues, but the electoral college unfortunately means we have to play more conservative to win. I hate it but that’s what we have to work with.

  146. 146
    Brachiator says:

    @James E Powell:

    and b) we can bring back the prosperity of that era if only we elect the right person

    In the UK this has resulted in BREXIT fever.

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Trump’s policies are incoherent and insane.

    Yep.

  147. 147
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    Trump is going to beat Biden. He’s weak. Obama got him where he is. Harris is strong and we need a strong center option. She can save the fucking world but she’s gotta get out of the Bernie/Warren lane and I don’t think she’s comfortable or authentic in it anyway. Hell if she takes out Biden I will switch and back her. I want to win.

  148. 148
    J R in WV says:

    @Ruckus:

    …People/doctors tell me I don’t look my age and seem far more fit that most my age. But I just found out a week ago that I have an inoperable aneurysm and a condition that can render me unable to balance or see… At our age things like this are quite possible and probable. And yes they can happen to anyone at any age. They are just more likely as we age…

    Sorry to learn about your new issues. Hope they can find a way to deal with all of them — best of luck. Keep us updated so we know what to hope for! Take care, also too.

  149. 149
    FlipYrWhig says:

    I thought the consensus Democratic position on trade was to negotiate deals that weren’t skewed to the benefit of large corporations and included “stakeholders” like labor, human rights advocates, and environmentalists throughout the process. This is not without problems, of course, because inherent to the idea of negotiations is that you often get stuck in a grumpy-making compromise. That was also what I thought was essentially the Obama admin pitch on TPP: not that it was a perfect trade deal but that it was the best one yet. And running on how when *you* have the chance to do it you’ll get an even better deal because you care more and try harder is bogus, but it’s what they’ll all say. I don’t think the hypothetical Bernie Sanders trade deal would be significantly different than any other 21st-century Democrat’s trade deal, because that’s how the sausage gets made.

  150. 150
    Fair Economist says:

    @Ruckus: The assorted herpesviruses are very controllable with the acyclovir family of antivirals at low toxicity. You might push for a preventative ongoing prescription. Yes, given your age you almost certainly had chickenpox. They can test for it if it matters.

  151. 151
    Fair Economist says:

    @Kay: A thousand times, no. Democrats do NOT need a coherent trade policy to beat Trump. Re-election campaigns are referenda on the incumbent and opposition parties don’t need coherent policy platforms to win. Roosevelt and Reagan, for example, ran on plans to eliminate the deficit, which made no sense in either case (but especially not Roosevelt). They won resoundingly anyway.

    Most voters don’t care much about policy details, and with good reason. They are too complex, and there’s no time to learn it all. Elections are about choosing representatives who can be trusted to work for your benefit on issues you lack time, power, or knowledge to handle.

  152. 152
    Ruckus says:

    @J R in WV: And everyone else!
    I’m stuck with the body that I have. Neither of the two things I experienced or found out about in the last two weeks necessarily keep me from doing anything. Believe me they are scary. But, and it’s one of those big, round, firm buts, other than being aware of what to expect with either of them, they don’t really change anything. They could, they might, but that is life. No one has told me not to go skydiving, although I’m not doing that, all I can do is get up in the morning, or not, and carry on with the next day. IOW normalcy. We change as we age, from the moment of our first breath, till the moment of our last. Some are born with issues, my friend who had club feet for example. Some develop issues, say my cancer or someone’s heart attack. But we all have some sort of life, some time, be it moments or 10 decades to shine, to not shine, to live, to hide from living, to be great, to be horrible, to be average. We can all look back and like what we saw, we can all look forward, although we don’t ever know for how far, except that the older one gets we know that there is more to see in the rearview mirror than in the windshield. I’m not being morbid, I like living. I wish that our current politics wasn’t so horrendous, but I still like living. I’m going to keep doing it and liking it as long as I can. That’s really all any of us get.

  153. 153
    EthylEster says:

    maybe Another Scott said something like this but I can’t find it….

    Basically I want a candidate to say what he/she wants to do, SAY WHY THEY WANT TO DO IT, and state that if anyone has a problem with said candidate’s position, supply fact-based criticisms. I want candidates to defend their positions, not change them. Or if they decide to change them, they will supply fact-based reasons for doing so. I don’t want heart rending anecdotes or sound bytes. Support TPP or don’t support it but make a factual argument for this position and stick to it.

    Of course, this will fail because most voters love heart rending anecdotes and sound bytes. And hate statistics or anything numeric. This is why I pretty much hate the humans in general now. We are a very fucked up species. This will not end well. And by “this”, I mean everything.

    Excuse the negativity. I’m reading “Thinking, Fast and Slow” now.

  154. 154
    Msilaneous says:

    @Ruckus: My friend Peter died when he was 33. Heart attack. My friend Al, who was 38, died on my 38th birthday. Heart attack. Right around that time my doctor sent me, overweight and out of shape, for a stress test. I guess I flunked it, if there is such a thing, because the young cardiologist who was reading the results looked up from the page and down his nose at me and said with some contempt that I wouldn’t live to see 50.

    Well, I’m in my 67th year, and a little over a decade ago I was diagnosed with a heart aneurysm. The cardiologist and I are keeping an eye on it, and there has been no change since it first showed itself. About 5 years ago, I developed debilitating chronic migraines along with dizziness and balance problems. I’m a hermit. I can’t abide crowds. I am in no way shape or form ready or willing to be president of anything, really. But still, I was supposed to check out more than 16 years ago, and I just applied for a part-time job.

    My heart is with you. You’ve had a dreadful shock. Take the time you need to grieve. Hopefully soon you’ll come to the realization that nothing has yet changed, might never change, and that life will continue with a kind of coming to terms acceptance. And at our age, increasing forgetfulness!

  155. 155
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    I don’t know. Biden held his own against Corn Cob. //

  156. 156
    James E Powell says:

    @Fair Economist:

    Elections are about choosing representatives who can be trusted to work for your benefit on issues you lack time, power, or knowledge to handle.

    Very true. It’s one reason why the primary season is so frustrating. We are not going to win or lose based on the differences on health care or on Kamala Harris’s career as a prosecutor or Warren’s fund raising or Biden’s gaffes.

    Our biggest problems are these two: a) there are a lot more bigots than we reckoned and they have like a 100% turnout rate and b) a very large percentage of American voters believe that any man will be a better president than any woman.

  157. 157
    anarchoRex says:

    Why does she think “we” don’t see them? And who’s “we”?

  158. 158
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @MomSense: I hear he drank Corn Cob’s milkshake. He drank it up!

  159. 159
    Doug R says:

    @Major Major Major Major: You know truancy is a MASSIVE red flag that something is SERIOUSLY wrong, right?

  160. 160
    frosty says:

    @Ruckus: Well said, all of that. I’m not far behind you, no health issues, but I’ve seen enough to know it could change tomorrow.

    Best of luck to you, and keep posting here. I like your perspective.

  161. 161
    Dopey-o says:

    @ola azul: my magic 8-ball said trump was electable. but I bought it in the gift shop at the moscow airport……

  162. 162
    debbie says:

    Impressive! More than 102,000 likes in 6 hours:

    I sat through those hearings. Brett Kavanaugh lied to the U.S. Senate and most importantly to the American people. He was put on the Court through a sham process and his place on the Court is an insult to the pursuit of truth and justice. He must be impeached.— Kamala Harris (@KamalaHarris) September 15, 2019

  163. 163
    topclimber says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I remember one of Warren’s big gripes about TPP was the lack of transparency and the insistence that any vote be for the total package with no amendments (TPA aka fast track proviso).

    I don’t recall Warren backing Trump’s version of tariffs but enough BJers have repeated it here that I will concede the point. Still, I don’t see it hurting her if she talks the need for comprehensive trade policy and pivots to rejecting the arbitrary, legally and politically dumb idea that the President has national security rights to set trade policy by decree. “That’s not how we come up with the Best Plan for this.”

    BTW we will never know if TPP could have been modified to meet legitimate objections because Trump pulled us out of it on Day 1 of his administration–a few months before he decided maybe we should renegotiate it. From scratch now of of course and not with the leverage of staying or leaving.

    Art of the Deal meets Brexit.

  164. 164
    Ruckus says:

    @topclimber:

    Art of the Deal meets Brexit.

    Now that is one crappy party.

  165. 165
    Michael Cain says:

    @Another Scott:

    On things like steel, I doubt that many US plants left.

    There are still quite a lot of mills, but they’re all relatively-small heavily-automated specialty outfits. They start almost exclusively with scrap steel. What has disappeared are the big mills that produce basic steel from iron or ore. Down the road a hundred miles from me, but still part of Front Range Colorado, is a mill that takes in a million tons of scrap per year and produces more than 50 specialty alloys, seamless pipe, railroad rail, etc from it. They employ about 1,000 people. Lots of them engineers and white-collar workers with college degrees.

  166. 166
    J R in WV says:

    @Michael Cain:

    Down the road a hundred miles from me, but still part of Front Range Colorado, is a mill that takes in a million tons of scrap per year and produces more than 50 specialty alloys, seamless pipe, railroad rail, etc from it.

    Was this mill perhaps in Pueblo CO ??

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