Friday Morning Open Thread: After the Debate

My opinion: Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris both did really well (although Warren will no doubt be dinged as ‘too wonky’ and Harris as ‘insufficiently specific’). Buttigieg, O’Rourke, Booker, and Klobuchar all had good moments for their future campaign ads. The two old guys at center stage did a credible parody of Statler & Waldorf… okay, that’s mean, but Biden’s dental implants seemed to be giving him problems, and Sanders was not only hoarse even before he started shouting but his old-man jowls are slipping back down around his jaws…

The Guardian liveblog finished with a pretty good “key takeaways from the debate” summary — and not just because I generally agree with it.

I will have more about last night’s debate, if only to highlight my two favorite candidates’ performances. But here’s a couple immediate OMG moments that the media will be gumming over right now. First, Beto continues his ‘Fvck it, y’all know I’m right about this’ tour:



‘Earned media’ (free publicity) from Repub moron!


(Twitter actually removed Cain’s tweet for violating its no-threats-of-violence rule, which is notoriously rare.)

And then, Castro picks on Biden — MAH PEARLS, THEY ARE *CLUTCHED*!!!!

Also, the inevitable Protestors (during the last wrap-up question round):

Some numbers for the beancounters:






263 replies
  1. 1
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning,Everyone 😊😊😊

    ReplyReply
  2. 2
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah:

    Good morning.

    ReplyReply
  3. 3
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    So I didn’t miss anything.

    ReplyReply
  4. 4
    JPL says:

    The few clips that I saw after the debate ended, Bernie was greeted by his family but the other candidates shied away from him. So Joe is saying that Castro attacked Biden for something that Biden didn’t say… Anywho I’m glad that I decided not to watch because the one they should be attacking is trump.

    ReplyReply
  5. 5
    Kraux Pas says:

    So I was over at the FTFNYT and it looks like their headline writers didn’t even watch the debate, just pulled out some stock confrontation verbiage.

    Must have been a good football game I missed.

    ReplyReply
  6. 6
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    trump has lost his “African American”:

    Cheadle told PBS NewsHour that he became disillusioned by what he called the GOP’s “pro-white agenda,” and the party rallying around Trump after his marathon of racist attacks against Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD) and “The Squad.” Though Cheadle wouldn’t call Trump “racist” outright, he did say the President has a “white superiority complex” that’s led him to nominate white men to the judicial bench almost exclusively.

    “To stay on this ship now, as a black Republican, I couldn’t do it,” he said.

    ReplyReply
  7. 7
    Baud says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    Up, Up, Up With Elizabeth Warren

    NYT > Top Stories / by Frank Bruni / 6min

    The debate showed that she’s slick, which may mean she’s unstoppable.

    SHAREVISIT WEBSITE

    Meme testing.

    ReplyReply
  8. 8
    Nicole says:

    Good morning! I thought that debate was… not terrible, actually. Even with ten freaking candidates. The questions, eh, but that’s par for the course.

    For fun, I posted on FB comments about the white male candidates that are things I’ve heard about women and I was all the way to the 4th one before my FB friends really caught on (I ended up doing five because one friend then requested that I do de Blasio, too, even though he wasn’t on the stage).

    Also, Wonkette’s liveblog was really funny.

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  9. 9
    Kraux Pas says:

    @JPL: This debate actually was a lot less confrontational overall and all the candidates came across very well.

    But of course disagreements will happen and there’s nothing wrong with people pointing out inconsistencies.

    And Biden has been coming across kind of dishonest in these debates. Here about whether people would have to opt in to his public option (thus confusing the very definition of option) and in the last debate how he portrayed Harris’s plan as not allowing choices for consumers. He’s the only person running whom I like less and less as the campaign goes on and he already wasn’t very high in my esteem to begin with.

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  10. 10
    satby says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning 😊!

    So the DACA protesters “won’t support any of the 2020 Democratic candidates”? Best of luck to them as they work on getting their issue resolved in another Republican administration. Dumbshits.

    ReplyReply
  11. 11
    Jinchi says:

    For most of the night, it was Biden’s time to shine
    Joe Biden did not dominate and did not make it through the evening mistake free.
    -WashingtonPost headline and subtitle

    Media coverage is all about expectations, but I won’t believe Biden is ready for prime time until I stop reading “Biden wins by not imploding on screen” hot takes from the political press.

    ReplyReply
  12. 12
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Nicole:

    I posted on FB comments about the white male candidates that are things I’ve heard about women

    What were they?

    ReplyReply
  13. 13
    WereBear says:

    Proof, if more was needed, that Biden is actually the guy they WANT to vote for but these are not necessarily Democrats, knowwhatImsaying?

    We need Joe Biden to “bring us back to the center”? I keep hearing that from ashamed Republicans.

    Oh, wait, the guy WE’RE supposed to vote for. Got it.

    ReplyReply
  14. 14
    Baud says:

    @satby:

    Whether they support anyone in the primary is largely irrelevant.

    ReplyReply
  15. 15
    Kraux Pas says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: OMG I thought this was referring to Don Cheadle.

    ReplyReply
  16. 16
    Baud says:

    @WereBear:

    If I were an ashamed Republican, I’d want Biden too. He was the least liberal person in the stage.

    ReplyReply
  17. 17
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: I assumed a “yet” at the end of that statement.

    ReplyReply
  18. 18
    rikyrah says:

    @Baud:
    Where is Kay?

    They are garbage😠😠

    ReplyReply
  19. 19
    rikyrah says:

    @satby:
    Yeah….They don’t make any sense😒😒

    ReplyReply
  20. 20
    Kraux Pas says:

    If I were an ashamed Republican, I’d want Biden too.

    They can’t be all that ashamed if they’re looking to Biden. “Uhh, we regret how this race stuff got out of hand but I still really like the corporate sector’s boots on our collective throats.”

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  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    I still really like the corporate sector’s boots on our collective throats.”

    They do like that, and that’s not what they’re ashamed of.

    ReplyReply
  22. 22
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kraux Pas: Sorry ’bout that.

    ReplyReply
  23. 23
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Yeah, Don Cheadle is still a solid Trumpster. :-)

    ReplyReply
  24. 24
    JPL says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: He hardly knew the guy and anyway only he can help the black community. Yesterday trump was asked about that and his response was he hardly knew the guy and anyway only he can help the black community.

    ReplyReply
  25. 25
    WereBear says:

    80% of Trump voters worship a demi-god who can’t golf in the rain because it ruins his hair.

    They just aren’t thinkers, these people.

    ReplyReply
  26. 26
    Nicole says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: For full effect, imagine them posted individually, about a half hour between each:

    Bernie’s so shrill. I don’t think I can listen to that voice for four years.

    Biden looks tired. I don’t think he has the stamina for this job.

    Beto’s so strident. It’s very off-putting. He should try to be more likable.

    Buttigieg comes across like such a know-it-all. The average voter doesn’t like that. He should be more warm and nurturing.

    de Blasio probably didn’t make the debate because he’s so negative and aggressive. It’s very unattractive. Also, what the hell was he wearing last time? Had he gained weight? I think he’d gained some weight. If he can’t control what he puts in his mouth, how can he run the country?

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  27. 27
  28. 28
    satby says:

    @Baud: @OzarkHillbilly: honestly, the more I engage in conversation with the common clay of my neighbors at the farmers market, the more I want to flee the country. Yesterday I was between a Bernie-stan organic farmer with the ugliest, most over-priced produce ever and a dingbat “Republican because of abortion” microgreens grower. Both of whom are close to 40 years old and have the political sophistication of three year olds. At least my RWNJ neighbor has a coherent (though abhorrent) worldview. I really despair most of the time these days.

    ReplyReply
  29. 29
    Nicole says:

    @WereBear: (blushes)

    I’m not sure what to interpret from how long it took friends to catch on while I was posting them last night.

    ReplyReply
  30. 30
    debbie says:

    @satby:

    I wasn’t watching. Did they look like PUMAs? //

    ReplyReply
  31. 31

    The thing I’m seeing on Twitter this morning is sheer outrage that a Republican PAC that aired anti-Dem ads on ABC during the debate showed an ad of AOC’s photo burning up while displaying other images of mass skulls and other scenes of terror. Pure Holocaust fearmongering crap. ABC should apologize and that PAC should get shut down for this BS.

    ReplyReply
  32. 32
    debbie says:

    @Nicole:

    Politics teaches us that men can be as shrill as women. //

    ReplyReply
  33. 33
    Baud says:

    @Nicole:

    Haha. I especially hated Booker’s cackle.

    ReplyReply
  34. 34
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Nicole: Heh, I like. Thanx for the share.

    ReplyReply
  35. 35
    satby says:

    Example, just because it annoyed me so much: the Bernie-stan made a laudatory statement about how thanks to the saint of Vermont, Burlington reserved the area around Lake Champlain for parks and green space, which clearly wouldn’t have happened without his stewardship. I asked her if she’d ever been to Chicago*.
    * Where, for those who don’t know, the lakefront was preserved as park and green space in the early 1900s. I assume Bernie helped.

    ReplyReply
  36. 36
    satby says:

    @debbie: I didn’t watch. Binged on Good Place. Far better use of my time.

    ReplyReply
  37. 37
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: I don’t take them seriously, at least not when it comes to politics. We here are outliers.

    Cracks me up, Percy snores like a chainsaw.

    ReplyReply
  38. 38
    Leto says:

    @Baud: Eh, I still think that honor goes toYang. Tech bro libertarian who somehow got on stage.

    @Nicole: Glorious :)

    ReplyReply
  39. 39
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @PaulWartenberg:

    that PAC should get shut down for this BS

    Bullshit is the base business model of pacs. If they couldn’t spout BS they’d be speechless.

    ReplyReply
  40. 40
    Nicole says:

    I know I only picked on the white men, and I’m not saying I’d never vote for a white man, I’m sure there’s a white male candidate out there I’d really like but I just am not into these white men. I can’t explain it; it’s a gut feeling and I always vote based on my gut so don’t ask me any specific policy questions because I don’t know I mean I’m really busy and we have to agree to disagree and I have to go now byeeeeee….

    ReplyReply
  41. 41
    Baud says:

    Today show of course starts off with the Castro -Biden squabble.

    ReplyReply
  42. 42
  43. 43
    JPL says:

    @PaulWartenberg: I attempted to watch it, and couldn’t finish it. Did it run just in NYC or nationwide?

    ReplyReply
  44. 44
    germy says:

    I watched the debate on ABC TV, but didn’t stick around for the talking heads’ analysis afterwards. I don’t care what Jon Karl or Rahm Emanuel think about it.

    To clarify: Rahm Emanuel once mailed the body of a dead, decomposing fish to bully a Dem he disliked.

    Then, as a mayor of Chicago, he worked to hide footage of the murder of Laquan McDonald from the public.

    Now he’s an investment banker & on TV. And all this is seen as normal. https://t.co/XJgL3lQ8ve

    — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  45. 45
    Baud says:

    Actress Felicity Huffman is scheduled Friday afternoon to be the first parent sentenced in the college admission bribery scandal, as a federal judge in Boston weighs whether to send her to jail for paying $15,000 to help one of her daughters obtain a fake SAT score.

    Prosecutors are recommending a month of incarceration for Huffman, plus a year of supervised release and a $20,000 fine. Her attorneys contend jail is unwarranted, proposing instead a year of probation, 250 hours of community service and the same fine. Huffman pleaded guilty in May to fraud conspiracy and has expressed remorse.

    ReplyReply
  46. 46
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    OK, I just posted a kitten update that seems to have gone into the ether. Comment number 7402436, if anyone wants to check the database.

    Gotta run; I’ll repost it this afternoon if it can’t be found and freed.

    ReplyReply
  47. 47
    Steeplejack says:

    @rikyrah:

    Good morning! 🙏

    ReplyReply
  48. 48
    germy says:

    The pundit of all pundits speaks:

    Tulsi is missed up there tonight. #DemDebate— Meghan McCain (@MeghanMcCain) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  49. 49
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @satby: It’s a real shame the big cities, like New York, never thought of preserving large, green, open areas for recreation in their centers. I’m glad Bernie was able to show the way in over-crowded, smoggy Burlington.

    ReplyReply
  50. 50
    Baud says:

    @germy:

    Haha. I bet.

    ReplyReply
  51. 51
    glory b says:

    Here’s what a number of African American women I’m acquainted with think about Warren and Bernie:

    1) Why isn’t anyone going to explain his numerous pro-gun votes? If others have to apologize for previous mistakes, how does he get away with merely saying he now has an “F” from the NRA?

    2) Warren was a Republican long after the Southern Strategy came to light. Why did she look away from that?
    Also, black women worked HARD for Clinton, she seemed to hand wave that away when she said the DNC rigged the primary against Bernie. Why does she think that happened? She never explained.

    I’ll also note that lots of educated black people work for government agencies, significantly higher percentages than other races. Most are happy with their health care coverage. I saw Steve Ratner on msnbc a few minutes ago, he said 85% of allpeople with employer provided coverage like it and want to keep it.

    ReplyReply
  52. 52
    Kay says:

    Stuart Rothenberg
    @StuPolitics
    ·11h
    Warren explains how she will pay for her health care plan. Not.

    She should say Mexico will pay for it. They all accepted that answer from Trump.

    Only Democrats have to pay for things. Did you know the giant rich people tax cut isn’t paid for? It’s not. The promised revenue increase from it never materialized. Not paid for.

    ReplyReply
  53. 53
    Immanentize says:

    @Gin & Tonic: The Emerald Necklace in Boston — Olmstead designed in 1894.

    ReplyReply
  54. 54
    satby says:

    @Gin & Tonic: another idiot comment from the Bernie-stan: did you know that because of that activist that climbed the flagpole that South Carolina got rid of the Confederate flag?
    I mean all props to that woman because that was great, but the boycott by organizations moving their conventions and sporting events elsewhere did more. But when I pointed that out, her response was it was because of that woman that the boycott happened (untrue, they had started first).
    It’s just like debating a Trumplestan.

    ReplyReply
  55. 55
    WereBear says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I will be watching for it!

    Did I mention we named the new kittens? Bud and Lou, Abbott and Costello. They do make us laugh all the time.

    ReplyReply
  56. 56
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @glory b: Bernie’s pro-gun votes are because he owes his career in politics to Wayne LaPierre. In 1990, Bernie ran for the House against the incumbent Republican Peter Smith, who was seen by the NRA as squishy. He won thanks to NRA support, including ads such as “Bernie Sanders is a more honorable choice for Vermont sportsmen than Peter Smith.”

    ReplyReply
  57. 57

    I don’t get all the Warren love, I am just not that into her. I don’t agree with her about trade. At this point I like Beto and Kamala H the best. Bernie and Yang can go home.

    ReplyReply
  58. 58

    @Nicole: Actually DeBlasio can pack the pounds and it won’t show because he is tall. His tone though, that would be problem, and he should learn to smile more and whine less.

    ReplyReply
  59. 59
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @Nicole: Hahaha, that’s great.

    ReplyReply
  60. 60
    Kay says:

    Noam Scheiber
    @noamscheiber
    ·15h
    So, to recap: Yesterday Uber said it wouldn’t reclassify drivers as employees under California’s new law b/c it doesn’t believe drivers are part of its “usual course of business.” Here’s how that argument played when Uber tried it before a judge in NY in 2017.

    The judge asked “if you have people requesting rides but no drivers, how would that work?” That stumped the Uber attorney and it was pretty much over.

    ReplyReply
  61. 61
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Nicole: White men deserve to be picked on, at least that’s what my wife thinks (judging by how often she picks on me)

    ReplyReply
  62. 62
    Butter emails!!! says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    What aspects of Beto’s and Harris’ trade policies do you prefer to Warren’s?

    ReplyReply
  63. 63
    Ken says:

    @Jinchi:

    I won’t believe Biden is ready for prime time until I stop reading “Biden wins by not imploding on screen” hot takes from the political press.

    That’s the new standard for President, or at least for old white guy presidents. Remarkable how it took the media less that two years to be trained to the new standard.

    ReplyReply
  64. 64
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @satby:

    Binged on Good Place.

    ❤️ September 26th draws closer.

    ReplyReply
  65. 65

    @Butter emails!!!: I don’t buy into Warren’s protectionist trade policies. I like how KH and Beto speak compared to Warren. I will vote for her if she wins the nomination but I am not excited about her at this point.
    YMMV.

    ReplyReply
  66. 66
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @germy: The cornerstone of the Democratic party speaks!

    ReplyReply
  67. 67
    Starfish says:

    @schrodingers_cat: A lot of people are working for companies that have gone to crap because they are owned by finance bros. They want to see Warren stick it to the bankers, finance bros, and billionaires. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was the first thing that was done for people in a long time.

    ReplyReply
  68. 68
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Baud:
    What happens to the kids who got into college with the fraudulent applications?

    ReplyReply
  69. 69

    @Starfish: I can get behind that and I agree with her about the regulation of Wall Street.
    But not protectionist trade policies.

    ReplyReply
  70. 70
    Baud says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    I haven’t heard.

    ReplyReply
  71. 71
    David C says:

    Maybe it’s not a good idea to invoke the names “Robert Francis” when threatening gun violence.

    ReplyReply
  72. 72
    Kay says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Warren’s trade policies are what Democrats have always said about trade– it’s how they were different from Republicans on trade. Democrats said they would use trade as a lever to make human, civil and labor rights part of any deal. Then they didn’t do it. Or if they did get some of those protections they didn’t enforce them. It isn’t about “tariffs”- that’s Trump. It’s about regulatory regimes. Countries without them are at a competitive advantage if the only measure is economic.

    Democrats have to answer the question – how are they different from Republicans on trade? Not just Trump- the entire Republican Party?

    ReplyReply
  73. 73
    Mr. Mack says:

    Question for the Jackals: Has anyone here heard of or read James W. Douglass?

    ReplyReply
  74. 74
    Kathleen says:

    @satby: I’m thinking they were agents whose purpose was to create discord and illusion that Dems are bad on immigration. We will see alot of this activity going forward.

    ReplyReply
  75. 75
    bemused says:

    @germy:

    Oh Meghan, bless your heart.

    ReplyReply
  76. 76
    glory b says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Huh, thanks for tge info.
    Now, the remaining question is why no pressure for an explanation.
    Also, I remember that when the Dema did the sit in gun protest when Paul Ryan was speaker, Bernie waved at them but didn’t join in. He always talks about protesting. He looked pretty petty.

    ReplyReply
  77. 77
    Professor Bigfoot says:

    @Nicole:

    Gonna need your address for the invoice for this keyboard with the mouthful of coffee spewed into it.

    ReplyReply
  78. 78
    Kay says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), between the United
    States, Mexico, and Canada was the first trade agreement ever linked to worker rights provisions in a major way. Its companion “side agreement,” the North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC, which rhymes with “talc”) went into effect with NAFTA on January 1, 1994. The NAALC agreement is “broad” in that NAFTA signatories agree to enforce their own labor laws and standards while promoting 11 worker rights principles over the long run. However, under NAALC,
    sanctions as an enforcement tool are applicable to only three of the 11 labor principles (pertaining to minimum wages, child labor, and occupational safety and health), and are not applicable to three basic rights: the right to organize, bargain collectively, and strike.

    All the side agreement says is the country has to to enforce its own labor standards. It’s meaningless. It also makes the US “the gold standard” on all these rights and protections and the US isn’t the gold standard – in the case of NAFTA, Canada has higher standards than the US. US workers would have been better off having Canada as the “gold standard” in that deal.

    ReplyReply
  79. 79
    Another Scott says:

    @Baud: I thought Amy was running for quasi-old-school-Republican what with her “these liberals up here don’t love America as much as me and I’m from the heartland” comment. (groucho-roll-eyes.gif) I hope she didn’t mean to say that, but that’s how it came across.

    Biden’s running as an old, old school Democrat. He’s more lefty than Amy, I think.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  80. 80
    Kay says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Warren is worried about a race to the bottom on regulatory regimes. Not the “market effect”- not some natural and inexorable rush to cheaper markets. A deliberate race to the bottom. Led by the US. If you put the US standards at the tippy top (where they aren’t and shouldn’t be, but even if we accept that fiction) then when the US drops standards the whole system drops down. US conservatives actually try this- it’s not a theoretical threat. They tried it immediately after NAFTA. They attempted to gut US standards. How conservatives compete is not insisting other countries raise standards- it’s lowering ours. This is supposed to be the fundamental difference between Republicans and Democrats on trade- they race to the bottom, we insist on meeting existing US standards. Warren is saying we have to actually do it.

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  81. 81
    Soprano2 says:

    I couldn’t watch last night, but I’ve gotten the gist from Twitter, here and the morning coverage. What I keep trying to remember is whether or not the moderators in 2016 used Democratic talking points for the questions in Republican debates. You know, questions like “Your proposed tax policy is projected to increase the debt by “x” and the deficit by “y”, and the cuts you propose will gut many programs that people depend on. What is your answer for critics who say that your plan is too radical?”. Somehow I don’t think any questions were framed like that. OTOH, they seem to believe a clever question about climate change is whether or not we should all become vegan. /smh I think they should ignore stupid questions like that by turning it around, saying something like “If you’re asking what the most important thing we can do to fight climate change is, here’s what I would propose” and then talk about that. Republicans get away with completely ignoring the question all the time, why can’t Democrats, especially when the question is a stupid Republican talking point?

    And yes, someone should say Mexico will pay for it. They didn’t challenge Trump on that. Did anything about how Trump is illegally diverting billions of dollars from other parts of the government to pay for his stupid wall come up?

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  82. 82
    Baud says:

    @Another Scott:

    I don’t think she meant it in the way it came across, but it was a flub.

    ReplyReply
  83. 83
    Baud says:

    @Soprano2:

    Republicans can lie about the effects of their policies or even about what their policies are.

    Dems can’t.

    ReplyReply
  84. 84
    Baud says:

    @Soprano2:

    And there’s too much wrongdoing by Trump for all of it to come up at one of our debates.

    ReplyReply
  85. 85
    chris says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: FYI Just listened to an interview with cave diver Dr. Jill Heinerth, author of Into the Planet, on The Current. Y’all are nucking futz!

    Should be on this page later today.

    ReplyReply
  86. 86
    Kay says:

    @Soprano2:

    I thought there was much less of that, which made it a better debate. Democrats are right to say that the moderators in the past debates set themselves up as opponents. There’s no reason for that. That’s not the moderators role. They’re not the proxy for the Republican Party. Republicans aren’t there. That debate comes later. Chuck Todd doesn’t need to play the role of the opposition. There was much, much less of that and so we got more real answers to real questions. I really think it’s ego. The moderators weren’t in the competition- they weren’t trying to score points.

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  87. 87
    MomSense says:

    @Kay:

    Warren came out in support of tariffs back in 2018.

    ReplyReply
  88. 88
    Another Scott says:

    @glory b:

    Steve Ratner on msnbc a few minutes ago, he said 85% of all people with employer provided coverage like it and want to keep it.

    Polling questions like these are going to be the death of us all.

    “like” is doing a massive amount of heavy lifting in that sentence.

    Sure, people like employer-provided health insurance. They don’t see the full cost of it in their pay stubs, they like that it provides some peace of mind.

    But they don’t like arguing with their insurance company about denied coverage. They don’t like having to cover the annual deductible before out-of-pocket coverage kicks in. They don’t like that if they actually need to use it for something serious like a hospitalization that there’s a good chance that they will get hit with some BS bazillion dollar charge from some doctor or medical outfit that they didn’t know wasn’t part of their “network” (and didn’t choose anyway), etc., etc.

    We have BCBS through work. J has a stack of files about a foot high from her dealing with them over coverage payments.

    Grrr…

    “85 percent of residents of Abaco and Grand Bahama like the weather there…”

    Grr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  89. 89
    Baud says:

    @Another Scott:

    “Like” is irrelevant. The question is whether voters will support our proposals to redo the system. Who knows?

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  90. 90
    trnc says:

    too many questions in the Democratic Primary take Republican talking points as their starting point https://t.co/3iqyixBJwC

    — Steadman™ (@AsteadWesley) September 13, 2019

    If dems aren’t already responding to this with “Let’s set aside the republican talking point you’ve bought into and talk about the facts,” they need to. They need to do the same thing in interviews, and they need to ask interviewers if they ever expect republicans to listen to their liberal constituents.

    ReplyReply
  91. 91
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    I like that it was one night. Sad that October will be two nights.

    ReplyReply
  92. 92
    Quinerly says:

    @glory b: Good post.

    ReplyReply
  93. 93
    Another Scott says:

    @Baud: But the framing in the press does matter.

    I think one of the reasons why Obamacare made it through Congress (barely) was that GM was screaming for years before the Great Recession that health benefit[s] were costing them about $2000 per car and it wasn’t sustainable. They couldn’t continue to compete with Japan and Germany and South Korea on a playing field where those countries didn’t have those huge costs baked into every car sold.

    Yeah, by the time the votes for passage were finally taken it wasn’t talked about much. But it was in the background and was part of the reason why it had the momentum to pass, I think

    If the background noise is “85% of people like the current system” based on an ambiguous, overly broad polling question, then people on the edge that need to be persuaded won’t be very persuadable.

    Framing matters and we should work on making it work for our policy objectives.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  94. 94
    Leto says:

    @Another Scott: This. I like the fact that I have health insurance. I hate the fact that two years on, I still don’t have a primary care doctor because my region is starved for doctors. I like the fact that I have health insurance. I hate the fact that I only have 75 annual visits for physical therapy; I still need, at minimum, another year of PT for my inquiries. When I called and asked BCBS what should I do when I run out of visits, basically they said, “Pay for it yourself.” (I’m lucky that I have a very good human being in my PT; we came to an arrangement) We recently had to buy another filing cabinet to deal with the paperwork that came about just because of my accident, hospitalization, and all the damn follow on bullshit resulting from it.

    Most people “like” their employer provided coverage because they’ve never had any other type of system. They don’t understand/know first hand the benefits of a universal coverage system like the ones the Scandinavian countries have. It also doesn’t help that we have Republican scare mongering as the default mode setting when talking about healthcare systems.

    ReplyReply
  95. 95
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: I am not sure they have yet settled on 2 nights. And someone could drop out before then. Unlikely, but possible.

    ReplyReply
  96. 96
    Karen S. says:

    @satby: I’m sure Daniel Burnham would have welcomed Bernie’s input. Haha.

    ReplyReply
  97. 97
    trnc says:

    @satby:

    So the DACA protesters “won’t support any of the 2020 Democratic candidates”? Best of luck to them as they work on getting their issue resolved in another Republican administration.

    Can’t help but wonder if they’re paid agitators.

    ReplyReply
  98. 98
  99. 99
    Starfish says:

    @Soprano2: Last night was not nearly as bad as the second debate.

    I think part of what made it better was the candidates. The top candidates did not attack each other. Harris kept her attacks on Trump. I think it was okay for the lower candidates like Castro to come after Biden, but that is “punching up.” It is less so when top tier candidates are being terrible to one another.

    Booker did what you said. He took a moment and spoke about farming, and he pivoted to what I think was Veteran’s healthcare.

    ReplyReply
  100. 100
    Baud says:

    @Another Scott:

    Sure, framing matters. But we can’t stop the media or Republicans from framing our policies negatively. We have to address the framing, and IMHO it’s weak to address the framing by complaining about framing.

    ReplyReply
  101. 101
    chopper says:

    @germy:

    i think she misspelled “messed”.

    ReplyReply
  102. 102

    Trump finally got on twitter just one minute ago and burped out three hysterical tweets about how great he was and how bad his enemies are and how can you impeach such a great president????

    Why do I look at that? It just irritates me, and I already know what he’s like.

    ReplyReply
  103. 103
  104. 104
    Another Scott says:

    @Leto: J and I were vacationing in Vancouver a few years ago, staying at a B&B. Another couple from Texas was there, and one morning at breakfast he looked pretty bad. The hostess called up a local doctor, got him seen that morning, and the doctor fixed up whatever was bothering him. There was little if any cost to him, no “OMG you’re a foreigner and your health insurance is no good here, here’s your bill for $14,892.34” BS.

    I accompanied J to a conference in Budapest a few years later. On the flight over, J developed severe ear pain and as soon as we landed she had to find some way to get relief. The concierge at the hotel called a local clinic, we walked over an hour later, waited a few minutes. Went into an office with about 5000 different scary pointy stainless steel tools on the counter. We tried to explain what the problem was as J sat in a chair and was examined. Then the assistant gently held her head in place while the female doctor used one of the scary pointy tools to take care of the problem. All done and all fixed. The doctor then went away for a few minutes and came back extremely apologetically that our insurance didn’t work in Europe so she needed to charge us something like the equivalent of $15.

    That’s how things work in civilized countries. We really don’t know how bad we have it here. :-(

    I’m sorry you’re having to fight so much to get the coverage you’ve paid for. I hope it gets better soon.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  105. 105
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    But you heard the tariff question last night. The free traders aren’t defending their position, and there’s a reason for that.

    Legislation regarding the 12-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade deal created unlikely alliances on Capitol Hill. President Barack Obama (D) and two of his longtime opponents and critics, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and former Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-Ohio), worked together to convince Congress that the TPP was a strong trade deal that would help American workers.

    Republicans in the Senate voted for it. You know how Republicans passed NOTHING Obama put up, but they did pass this. Sp the question becomes how do Republicans and Democrats differ on trade? Democrats have answered that for 30 years by saying they are the race to the top party. If that’s true then why did Mitch McConnell and the majority of the GOP Senate easily pass authority to pass O’s trade deal?
    If Republicans and Democrats ARE the same on trade – and they sure seem to be- then Democrats have nothing to say on trade, and they sure seem not to have anything to say, since they’re saying the same vague things about “strong protections” they’ve been saying for 30 years. Trump threw a wrench into this bipartisan consensus but it was always a problem for Democrats. They never really could explain it, and the free traders among them still can’t.

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  106. 106
    JGabriel says:

    @Nicole:

    I’m not sure what to interpret from how long it took friends to catch on while I was posting them last night.

    I’m not suire there’s much to really draw out of that. The first joke, about Bernie being shrill, remindced me of “Paul Krugman is shrill.” The second, about Biden looking tired, seemed more like a comment about his age, at first glance. In other words, neither come across as specifically gendered comments. It’s not until you get to saying Beto ‘should be more likable’, that a gendered direction in the ironic commentary becomes noticeable.

    At least, that was my reading. YMMV.

    ReplyReply
  107. 107
    bupalos says:

    @Baud: The framing of “you get to keep it” vs. “you’ll lose it” is the entire problem here. Dems need to simply frame their presentation around “here’s what you get with our plan, it’s obviously better for 90% of our country and that’s why we are going to do it” and stop doing this “if you like it you can keep it, but if you don’t, you can have this alternate plan-b thing instead.” I get why it’s tempting to sell it that way, but it’s ultimately dishonest in a system this complicated, and being perceived as dishonest on this issue makes the political lift insurmountable.

    ReplyReply
  108. 108
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:
    That must mean he’s really really worried about impeachment.

    ReplyReply
  109. 109
    Baud says:

    @bupalos:

    You wouldn’t like Warren’s response last night then because she said you get to keep your doctor.

    ReplyReply
  110. 110
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Why do I look at that?

    Self loathing.

    ReplyReply
  111. 111
    Kay says:

    @MomSense:

    Partly the race to the bottom was rhetorical. The trade issue was always framed as “high standards! here in the US we do not imprison labor organizers for years without trial, as they do in Vietnam!” That’s the “gold standard”? They set expectations SO LOW anyone could meet them, and even those incredibly low standards weren’t mandatory and weren’t ever enforced. Worker and human rights are one thing, but this also matters a lot for consumers. If the exporting country has rock bottom regulatory standards you get things like garbage drywall and poisoned dog foods and tainted medicine and defective automobiles and fish that is sold as one type of fish but is actually another. People will care about that, even if they don’t care that Vietnam imprisons labor organizers.

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  112. 112
    Yarrow says:

    @satby: Ask the Bernie-stan which of the bills that are now laws that, in his 30 years in Congress, Bernie shepherded through Congress and have his name on them are his favorite. When they can’t come up with any and start in with the excuses you can say, “Well, I like people who can get things done.” Could provide some entertainment anyway.

    ReplyReply
  113. 113
    JPL says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I’m disappointed that Castro didn’t go after trump’s actions instead of Biden’s.

    trump is losing it and the tweets confirm it.

    ReplyReply
  114. 114
    Leto says:

    @Another Scott:

    That’s how things work in civilized countries. We really don’t know how bad we have it here. :-(

    More Americans are figuring it out. I know Reddit can be a shitshow, but it’s also a great melting pot for people to experience other nations healthcare stories while seeing the insanity of ours. I’m hoping that it helps move the needle. Avalune and I have a few stories about utilizing the UK and Italian health systems, hardest part being the language barrier with the Italians. But like you and J, it was sorted, and we moved along with our lives.

    It’s getting better. Every day is progress. It’s the slow but steady variety, but it’s progress.

    @bupalos: What they’re describing is the German system. Everyone has universal coverage, but if you want extra/chose your own specialist doctor, then you get private insurance and go from there. UK has a similar system, same as Canada. The system is this complicated because it was built this way. Doctors hate it, nurses hate it, medical professionals hate it, insurance companies hate it, patients hate it… everyone hates it, yet we’re told that we can’t change it. Bullshit.

    ReplyReply
  115. 115
    Kay says:

    At a mid-August fundraiser in Jackson Hole, Wyo., Ivanka Trump was asked to name the personality traits she inherited most from her parents.
    Without much of a pause, Trump told the crowd of roughly 120 high-end donors that her mother gave her an example of how to be a powerful, successful woman.
    And her father? He passed onto her his moral compass, she said, according to two event attendees.

    It does solve a mystery, though. We have discovered Ivanka Trump’s constituency- it’s rich GOP donors. How many people is that? 10,000? 20,000?

    ReplyReply
  116. 116
    bemused says:

    @WereBear:

    I’m on the fence about getting breakaway kitty collars with bells for our indoor cats. What is your expert opinion?

    ReplyReply
  117. 117
    NotMax says:

    As no one else brought it up, Happy Friday the 13th.

    Take a broken mirror to lunch.

    ReplyReply
  118. 118
    Kay says:

    @Another Scott:

    I have private health insurance and I’d ditch it in a heartbeat for Medicare. I know I will pay for Medicare, but I also know I pay for health insurance, unlike all of America’s debate moderators, who apparently believe they receive free health insurance because they’re just fabulous.

    ReplyReply
  119. 119
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Jinchi: Worked for Trump.

    ReplyReply
  120. 120
    glory b says:

    @Baud: I agree, the question should be some iteration of whether or not they’ll support exchanging it for something else. For better or worse, lots of black folks are more invested in keeping what they have rather than going with the unknown.
    The lack of enthusiasm black people have for Warren hardly ever gets mentioned. Steve Kornacki said she’s been stuck in single digits with us. 10% is the best she’s done.
    I’m not sure what would happen if we had a candidate who swept in on the white vote, but did that poorly with people if color.

    ReplyReply
  121. 121
    Jinchi says:

    @Nicole:

    Beto’s so strident. It’s very off-putting. He should try to be more likable.

    I’m guessing it was the Beto comment when they all caught on. The Bernie and Biden ones are pretty much on target.

    ReplyReply
  122. 122
    geg6 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Your feeling about Warren has been my feeling about Harris from the start. I don’t see what so many here see in her. I think she’s a bit of a lightweight in many policy areas and she flip flops and walks back things she says in debates and interviews an awful lot. She does not impress me. I really like Warren and Booker. Beto is somewhere in third of fourth place for me.

    ReplyReply
  123. 123
    Kay says:

    I know it’s controversial but I am enjoying watching Warren refusing the accept the premise of their questions and explaining instead. She didn’t get permission from media to do this, but she’s doing it anyway. She’s insisting on running the narrative around her own plans, and in my view that’s fair play and allowed. We’ll have to see what voters think about it. If they accept it then we’ll have to ask who were these questions for?

    ReplyReply
  124. 124
    JPL says:

    @Kay: Wow.

    ReplyReply
  125. 125
    rp says:

    My employer-based healthcare kinda blows, and it’s completely ridiculous that (a) I’ve had to learn completely new systems a few times over the last 5 years because I’ve changed jobs a couple times, and (b) I would be completely screwed if I lost my job or decided to become an independent contractor/consultant.

    Of course, I’m not saying anything that hasn’t been said a 1000 times before.

    ReplyReply
  126. 126
    bemused says:

    @Kay:

    I’ve changed my mind about long prison time for the trump family. I think taking away all their ill-gotten wealth and possessions and make them live like we commoners in rural/small town america on $50,000 or less a year for the rest of their lives.

    ReplyReply
  127. 127
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Kay:
    Ivanka could be telling the truth here. We all know her daddy’s a crooked, lying, cheating, philandering, abusive, lazy, entitled so-and-so. And I think we have her on lazy and entitled, at least.

    ReplyReply
  128. 128
    Jeffro says:

    Folks, Josh over at Talking Points Memo has a clip up in his ‘Dear Leader’ Watch section. It’s quite unbelievable. Lou Dobbs spends a minute telling his viewers that trumpov is ‘focused and high-energy’ and ‘there’s a smile on the face of everyone working in trumpov’s White House’. Straight-up North Korea propaganda stuff and totally crazy.

    (Sorry I am bad with links on this iPad)

    ReplyReply
  129. 129

    @glory b: I am with my black sisters in not being too impressed with her plans. They are good goals and they sound good but I don’t think she can pull it off.
    1. I doubt that she can convince people who are not in her fan club. I am talking about other Ds not Rs or the TV punditry.
    2. I find her speeches and her delivery boring and hectoring, you can throw brick bats at me but she reminds me of my not so favorite teachers in school.

    ReplyReply
  130. 130

    @Kay: Ivanka is a ridiculous person. She’s all polish and no substance.

    ReplyReply
  131. 131
    Kay says:

    @JPL:

    In my opinion, and based solely on a small town law practice where one encounters “crazy liar” about once a month, there’s nothing you can do with these people. They lie. It IS their center. There’s nothing else. You have to get around them. There’s no fixing it. Here’s the thing- they believe it. You’re then arguing with beliefs, which is a waste of time. You have to rely on the fact that MOST people are not crazy liars so this person will be sidelined eventually and become irrelevant, other than in a head shaking “there she is again!” way. But is sometimes takes a lot of time and a lot of damage.

    ReplyReply
  132. 132
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    I agree.

    @glory b:

    I think it’s a dilemma for Warren and other progressives. On one hand, you’re saying how corrupt Washington is, but yet your asking people to trust Washington to redo the health care system because “it’ll be different when I’m in charge.”

    That message works for me, but I’m already in the fold. I’m not sure how it’ll play more broadly.

    ReplyReply
  133. 133
    rikyrah says:

    @satby:
    This is some purity pony bullshyt. If you aren’t smart enough to know that every candidate on that stage is Pro-DACA, then you are too stupid for words. Take your azzes over to Moscow Mitch and see how you’re treated.

    ReplyReply
  134. 134
    chris says:

    @Another Scott:

    85% of all people with employer provided coverage like it and want to keep it.

    The other 15% are the people who are actually dealing with it.

    ReplyReply
  135. 135

    @geg6: I find KH reassuring and warm. As for policy prescriptions, many of these pie-in-the sky policies are not going to survive the harsh realities of the Congress. They can promise us the sun, the moon and the stars and I would be happy if they can deliver a fraction of what they are promising. I like Beto because he says what needs to be said aloud about immigration and race. He speaks passionately about the demonization of immigrants and for that alone I am glad that he is on that stage.

    ReplyReply
  136. 136
    Nicole says:

    @Professor Bigfoot: There is no greater honor conferred than the accusation of liquid spilled onto a keyboard. Thank you.

    ReplyReply
  137. 137
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    I think we have to remember that they are talking to a lot of voters. They talk to voters all day long, and have for months. The candidates are much more the experts on what voters care about than the moderators. Warren wants to present this as “health care first, then how we pay for the health care”. She said this- she said “voters care about health care, they don’t care about health insurance”. In so many words. It’s her case. She should be allowed to present it in the order she feels is best. If VOTERS start demanding answers on specifics she’ll get there, but maybe she knows that’s not what they’re asking.

    It’s like Biden with the gaffes. I don’t think his supporters give a shit and maybe he knows that.

    ReplyReply
  138. 138

    Good Morning/Evening fellow jackals.

    At the airport in Taipei waiting for the midnight flight to Georgia San Francisco.

    A bit of low-key visit since I listened to my body and took it easy. I did have a chance to something unique — an I Ching reading and knife massage.

    Yes it’s exactly what it sounds like. Sounds gimmicky, but it’s actually a practice that’s more than 2,000 years old.

    Olivia used a pair of (blunted) cleavers to drum away on my body. (I did have a towel placed over wherever she was working on to soften the blows.) It was both extremely relaxing and energizing.

    Followed it with an I Ching reading afterwards. I’m skeptical of woo stuff, but she did so surprisingly accurate observations that I couldn’t chalk up to “cold reading.”

    This travel blogger did a good write up of what the experience is like.

    ReplyReply
  139. 139
    geg6 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Everyone sees people differently. I just can’t take Harris very seriously on anything other than legal/police issues. I don’t see the warmth at all and I don’t find reassuring a candidate who can’t seem to figure out where she stands on a great number of issues. And where you see Warren as every teacher you hated, I see her as every (few) teacher I adored. I like Booker’s passion and smarts. And Beto is growing on me because of his complete ability to find his own passion since the El Paso shooting. I really don’t care about any of the rest. For me, right now, it’s Warren, Booker and then Beto, I think. None of rest resonate at all for me and some of them actively turn me off.

    ETA: Not that it matters what I think. By the time the PA primary rolls around, I’ll just have to take what I get. But if Warren’s in there, based on my feelings right now, she has my vote.

    ReplyReply
  140. 140
    hueyplong says:

    @bemused: Agree. Piggy-backing on what someone here said in 2016, I’d like to see the Trumps living in apartment complexes outside Orlando, working at some service-oriented job (don’t care what) at which they’re under the thump of a petty, turf-conscious supervisor. Each of them. For as long as they live. Welcome on no cable network of any kind, however marginal.

    About this, they say I’m a dreamer. But I’m not the only one.

    ReplyReply
  141. 141
    glory b says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I agree, we’re putting the mean girls’ table back together again!

    ReplyReply
  142. 142
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    I wonder about Trump with this. He never talks to voters, even his own. He gives shouty speeches and watches Fox. He’s really isolated. They say they track their online supporters obsessively, and I’m sure they do, but what percentage of Trump voters are online political fanatics? 3% of the 40% he has? I keep thinking about the FEC record I searched for this county. He has 3 donors who make repeat donations. One woman makes up 80% of his local donations. This is a 70% Trump county and there are twice as many Act Blue donors as Trump donors. Would he even know if he was losing touch?

    ReplyReply
  143. 143
    Amir Khalid says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    I haven’t seen or read anything about either Harris or Warren to make me doubt their capacity to be a fine POTUS — in absolute terms, let alone in comparison to der Scheißgibbon. Or to doubt either woman’s electability or fitness for office. So at this stage I have no preference between them, and I await the judgement of Democratic primary voters next year.

    ReplyReply
  144. 144
    cmorenc says:

    @Jinchi:

    Media coverage is all about expectations, but I won’t believe Biden is ready for prime time until I stop reading “Biden wins by not imploding on screen” hot takes from the political press.

    Not imploding on screen in a debate worked for George Bush, in part because he seemed like the guy more people would like to have a beer with. OK, so you’re annoyed that the “beer with” criteria is even a consideration and besides, he isn’t who you’d pick to have a beer with – but the beer question is just a variant of the who you’d be comfortable having (on TV) in your living room question, which is important to many voters.

    ReplyReply
  145. 145
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Leto:

    “Most people “like” their employer provided coverage because they’ve never had any other type of system. They don’t understand/know first hand the benefits of a universal coverage system like the ones the Scandinavian countries have. It also doesn’t help that we have Republican scare mongering as the default mode setting when talking about healthcare systems.”

    This, I think, is plain truth. Many have experienced no insurance & some more or less good insurance. They can’t imagine a system in which they don’t have to stress so much about it.

    ReplyReply
  146. 146
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    Sure. They do what they think is best. I just don’t presume anymore to know how voters who are unlike me will react to all of it.

    ReplyReply
  147. 147
    geg6 says:

    @Kay:

    After reading your earlier comment about doing these searches, I did the same for my county. And the results were pretty much the same as yours. A variety of donors on the Dem side to a variety of candidates and organizations such as ActBlue. On the GOP side, two donors made every single donation I saw. Kinda weird, I thought.

    ReplyReply
  148. 148
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Kay: Without much of a pause, Trump told the crowd of roughly 120 high-end donors that her mother gave her an example of how to be a powerful, successful woman.

    The highlights of her mother’s professional life were a cameo appearance in a movie about bitter divorces and retracting a rape accusation against Ivanka’s father in order to maintain a divorce settlement.

    ReplyReply
  149. 149
    Jeffro says:

    @Kay: I wonder how many folks in that constant 38-40% who keep saying they support trumpov are really going to turn out for him this time. I wonder how many are just saying “yeah, he’s my guy” because there’s no alternative for them/to ‘own the libs’/to stick it to the media/whatever.

    I mean, his ‘strong support’ number is around 25%; his ‘strongly oppose’ number is at 48%. That’s HUGE. And he will just keep getting crazier and more repellent across the next year, while unifying the Dems (and maybe even getting us to the 50% ‘strongly oppose’ mark. That’s it. That’s the ballgame right there.

    ReplyReply
  150. 150
    germy says:

    They’re worried.

    "The far left is pissed off, they hate the president and that is a powerful motivator," Ted Cruz said. "If the left shows up in massive numbers and everybody else doesn’t that's how we end up with an incredibly damaging election." https://t.co/aVSSKWSa1q— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) September 12, 2019

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  151. 151
    Elizabelle says:

    NPR at the top of the hour. In last night’s debate, lots of topics, but there was not one question about the economy.

    Just fuck them. It would seem most of the topics touch on the economy. At least the Democrats live in the real world.

    ReplyReply
  152. 152
    germy says:

    Breaking on @MSNBC: The U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals has revived a lawsuit claiming that Trump violated the Constitution by accepting foreign and domestic payments through his businesses.— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  153. 153
    germy says:

    This emoluments-clause lawsuit against @realdonaldtrump — claiming he violates the Constitution by doing business with foreign govts — was dead. Now, it's alive again. Story to come… https://t.co/Z8GvEuusK5— David Fahrenthold (@Fahrenthold) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  154. 154
    Baud says:

    @germy:

    Ted Cruz thinks Ed Rendell is far left.

    ReplyReply
  155. 155
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Elizabelle: it is astounding to me that health care is treated as somehow distinct from “the economy”– also, do people who “like” their employer-provided health care never worry about losing their jobs?

    ReplyReply
  156. 156
    germy says:

    The thing about Briscoe Cain threatening to kill Beto O’Rourke is that this is honestly normal behavior for Texas Republicans. Democrats only need to flip 9 more seats to take a majority in the TX state house. Time to kick these crazies to the curb. https://t.co/mG7lReAE1r— Adam Best (@adamcbest) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  157. 157
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @satby:

    honestly, the more I engage in conversation with the common clay of my neighbors at the farmers market, the more I want to flee the country.

    What country is going to be better if you live in its Indiana?

    ReplyReply
  158. 158
    germy says:

    I swear, pundits are literally the only people who think that paying a dollar in taxes is somehow more expensive than paying two dollars to an insurance company.— Amanda Marcotte (@AmandaMarcotte) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  159. 159
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Kay:

    And her father? He passed onto her his moral compass, she said, according to two event attendees.

    So Ivanka admits to being a greedy, thieving, lying, bigoted rapist?

    ReplyReply
  160. 160
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy:

    Laurence Tribe @ tribelaw
    We just won our Emoluments Clause appeal against President Trump in the 2d Circuit on behalf of hotels, restaurants, and restaurant workers injured by Trump’s unconstitutional and corrupt acceptance of foreign and domestic business. THIS IS HUGE!!!

    ReplyReply
  161. 161

    Elizabeth Warren let herself get goaded into taking that stupid DNA test by that Orange Clown. KH knows how to stare down bullies and will not let the Orange Clown rattle her, she has a life time of experience dealing with this, being belittled, of people mangling her first name and not being taken seriously because of what she looks like.

    ReplyReply
  162. 162
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @satby: #RedStateLife

    Many others of us feel the same pain. I look at it as an opportunity to vote the correct way in a state/county/city that will eventually flip to the party of decency, versus being just another democratic voter in California or New York.

    Stay strong!

    ReplyReply
  163. 163
    bemused says:

    @hueyplong:

    I entertain myself with just dessert fantasies for trump and all his vile sycophants that will never happen but it is entertaining to imagine these priviliged clueless people trying to navigate let alone survive what tens of millions of americans do every day.

    ReplyReply
  164. 164
    Jeffro says:

    @germy: “Kick the Crazies to the Curb: Vote Democratic” almost fits on a bumper sticker and could be used in any race from dogcatcher to prez.

    Maybe “End the Insanity: Vote Dem”? “Tired of Tweets? Vote D”?

    ReplyReply
  165. 165
    Kraux Pas says:

    @bemused:

    think taking away all their ill-gotten wealth and possessions and make them live like we commoners in rural/small town america on $50,000 or less a year for the rest of their lives.

    $50, 000 sounds awful generous. I would love to try to live on that.

    ReplyReply
  166. 166
    Yarrow says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: She had a perfume line. Who could forget this story from 1996:

    Sarah Palin, a commercial fisherman from Wasilla, told her husband on Tuesday she was driving to Anchorage to shop at Costco. Instead, she headed straight for Ivana.

    And there, at J.C. Penney’s cosmetic department, was Ivana, the former Mrs. Donald Trump, sitting at a table next to a photograph of herself. She wore a light-colored pantsuit and pink fingernail polish. Her blonde hair was coiffed in a bouffant French twist.

    ”We want to see Ivana,” said Palin, who admittedly smells like salmon for a large part of the summer, ”because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture.”

    Ivana Trump, the former Czechoslovakian Olympic skier who found fame and wealth as the wife of the New York tycoon, came to Anchorage Tuesday to push her line of perfume.

    ReplyReply
  167. 167

    @glory b: Right on, sister friend. I liked KH’s blouse and her pearls too. Elizabeth Warren is pretty but she always plays down her looks, she still dresses like a woman in academia.

    ReplyReply
  168. 168
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Baud:

    I especially hated Booker’s cackle.

    I like your strategy of skipping the debate so no one can find anything negative about your bearing. Will be helpful when you’re in the final three candidates and primary voters have bad feelings about Moscow Tulsi and Chakra Con but you’re a tabula rasa.

    ReplyReply
  169. 169

    @Baud: More proof that he is an idiot or a liar or both.

    ReplyReply
  170. 170
    Kay says:

    @geg6:

    Kinda weird, I thought.

    Isn’t it though? One thing I found out was kind of nice- there’s a retired judge here who used to be involved in D politics. I haven’t seen him in years. He is our single largest D donor, still :)

    His wife (who is a lovely person) has a chronic illness so maybe he sticks close to home. I haven’t seen him since O’s first race but he’s still involved, still donating. He has to be in his 80’s.

    ReplyReply
  171. 171
    burnspbesq says:

    I’d like to see Beto sic the FBI on Briscoe Cain.

    ReplyReply
  172. 172
    bemused says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Easy to be powerful with fat bank accounts and privilege. Then again, trump and family believe they “worked” their way up. Morality is a whole different issue.

    ReplyReply
  173. 173
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I suspect that Cruz is a liar more than an idiot. I think he’s an “end justifies the means” type who is getting increasingly desperate as he realized that his disgusting countenance is likely to prevent him from ever becoming president.

    ReplyReply
  174. 174
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m a fan of women dressing in the way they feel comfortable and that suits them. I thought they all accomplished that last night. I did like Harris’s blouse–shiny!–and pearls.

    Can we critique the men’s clothing choices? One of the men’s suit and tie didn’t fit very well but now I can’t remember which one. Beto? Joe? Hmmm….now I can’t remember. Men definitely have it easier in the clothing department.

    ReplyReply
  175. 175
    germy says:

    @burnspbesq: He did contact the FBI.

    ReplyReply
  176. 176
    Yarrow says:

    @burnspbesq: Briscoe Cain sounds like a made up name. It’s hard to believe it’s real.

    ReplyReply
  177. 177
    Jeffro says:

    I see Biden’s weird word salad (record players? Venezuela?) during his education non-answer answer is getting some more scrutiny this morning.

    As is trumpov’s “Mike Pounce” comment.

    These things are related…

    ReplyReply
  178. 178
    bemused says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    I know but that would be less than chump change for them.

    ReplyReply
  179. 179
    Yarrow says:

    @Jeffro: Mike Pounce?

    ReplyReply
  180. 180
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Yarrow: also, the guy whose parents named him after a cowboy in a movie they saw at the Lubbock drive-in is making fun of O’Rourke cause his Anglo parents gave him a Hispanic-sounding nickname when he was a toddler

    ReplyReply
  181. 181
    rikyrah says:

    @glory b:

    UH HUH
    UH HUH

    Good points.

    ReplyReply
  182. 182
    The Moar You Know says:

    I don’t know what is going to end up happening to Beto but we all owe him: he has gotten the right conversation on guns started.

    The “we’re taking them and fuck you, you don’t have the right to terrorize and kill your fellow Americans” conversation.

    I am a gun owner and will happily NOT be one the day the government bans the fucking things.

    ReplyReply
  183. 183

    @Yarrow: Bernie always looks like he just rolled out of bed. People (including me) commented on Paul Ryan’s ill fitting suit at the press announcement after Romney picked him. People have also been commenting on Biden’s bright white teeth etc.
    Whether you like it or not we do judge people on their appearance, especially politicians.

    ReplyReply
  184. 184
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Yarrow: I thought so too. Didn’t Bo and Luke have a run in with Briscoe Cain in a “Dukes of Hazzard” episode?

    ReplyReply
  185. 185
    Jeffro says:

    @Yarrow: During the speech he gave in Baltimore yesterday (which was another rambling, shambling mess). He called him “Mike Pounce”. Twitter’s having a field day with the memes, as you might imagine.

    I think he slipped and used Pence’s ‘adult movie’ name. LOL

    ReplyReply
  186. 186
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:

    Stuart Rothenberg
    @StuPolitics
    ·11h
    Warren explains how she will pay for her health care plan. Not.

    She should say Mexico will pay for it. They all accepted that answer from Trump.

    BWA HA HA H AH HA HA HA HA

    Oh Kay….

    ReplyReply
  187. 187
    Butter emails!!! says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    I’m going to defer to Kay’s comments on this, but my impression is that Warren’s trade policies are not protectionist so much as they are in line with her domestic objectives and policies. You can’t protect workers, the environment, etc. if you don’t also promote and require some level of commitment to these from your trading partners. What’s the point of passing tougher environmental controls, if the firms just offshore and dump their waste in different rivers. What’s the point of protecting labor if the jobs just get sent overseas where labor has no such protections?

    ReplyReply
  188. 188
    germy says:

    A Texas Republican lawmaker has been reported to the FBI for a tweet in which he appeared to threaten presidential contender Beto O’Rourke after he had made an impassioned plea for tougher gun restrictions

    https://www.newsweek.com/texas-beto-orourke-briscoe-cain-gun-reform-1459074

    ReplyReply
  189. 189
    germy says:

    This is Briscoe’s response to Beto:

    You’re a child Robert Francis https://t.co/rU3WoYQFQV— 𝐁𝐫𝐢𝐬𝐜𝐨𝐞 𝐂𝐚𝐢𝐧 (@BriscoeCain) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  190. 190
    Butter emails!!! says:

    @Jeffro:
    I think it means he feeds Pence cat treats if he’s been good.

    ReplyReply
  191. 191
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    I am a gun owner and will happily NOT be one the day the government bans the fucking things.

    Is there a reason that you want to keep them until they are banned? It sounds like you are currently opposed to al gun ownership or do you just oppose the ownership of military type weapons? No one is making you keep them.

    ReplyReply
  192. 192
    germy says:

    It's worth noting that Briscoe Cain sneaked into last year's Texas Democratic convention with a handgun and tried to hand out yard signs inviting shooters to attack Democrats' houses.
    This man is not well and should not be a state representative, OR own guns. https://t.co/zcJc0EEMuT— Matthew Chapman (@fawfulfan) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  193. 193
    Kay says:

    @Jeffro:

    In a way he’s lucky it was word salad. It’s a really bad answer. He was trying to talk about the “word gap”, which is when upper income college educated parents talk to their children more and engage them in a back and forth. What researchers have found is this teaches them how to think- how to ask the next question, persuade, make their case. And people used to make fun of this! Conservatives actually made fun of it. It was “permissive parenting”. The idea was children need short direct orders and the back and forth gives them too much power. But what it really does it make them think and “use their words” to negotiate conflict which we want them to do so they don’t hit each other. But you don’t get there by leaving a record player on. It’s a dialogue with a real person. That’s the advantage.

    ReplyReply
  194. 194
  195. 195
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I don’t know whose email list Kamala Harris got hold of, but I’ve gotten about 200 emails from her in the last 72 hours. I don’t think I’m getting any from any other presidential candidates

    ReplyReply
  196. 196
    germy says:

    .@BetoORourke says his campaign contacted the FBI about Texas lawmaker @BriscoeCain saying "my AR15 is ready for you" pic.twitter.com/T9FuZfQHBk— Tom Elliott (@tomselliott) September 13, 2019

    ReplyReply
  197. 197
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: We do but women are always judged more on appearance than men are. Just part of the culture. I think that’s shifting but it takes time. I’m glad to see several women on the stage wearing various types of professional attire. They each seem to know what suits them and what makes them feel comfortable. I’m all for that.

    @Jeffro: Oh, that’s funny. Thanks.

    ReplyReply
  198. 198
    Leto says:

    Interesting article regarding Sen. Warren and POC: Warren Has Lagged With Voters Of Color. But She Has Strong Support In Boston’s Black Community

    Church leaders and local organizers support her and think that her plans will help the black community. But the potentially overriding factor? Getting rid of Trumpov.

    ReplyReply
  199. 199
    Kay says:

    @rikyrah:

    Uber also says the drivers aren’t the things because there will be driverless cars. But the drivers purchase and insure and do the upkeep and storage on the car. So…Uber buys a massive fleet of cars? Who pays for the fuel? The insurance? What do they do with the cars that are not occupied or in use? They will no longer be getting free storage in the owner’s garage.

    I guess the plan is YOU buy Uber the driverless car. It has to be.

    ReplyReply
  200. 200
    Kay says:

    @rikyrah:

    To me, if they can’t make money while off-loading 95% of the costs of their business on both the public and the drivers they aren’t going to make money when are DISALLOWED from doing that. I bet they see this as a problem. It is. But it isn’t the public’s problem. It’s that they aren’t paying the costs of their business and they are DEPENDENT on that. They can lobby all they want. This thing is doomed.

    ReplyReply
  201. 201
    bemused says:

    @germy:

    OMG

    ReplyReply
  202. 202
    rikyrah says:

    @Gelfling 545:

    Most people “like” their employer provided coverage because they’ve never had any other type of system. They don’t understand/know first hand the benefits of a universal coverage system like the ones the Scandinavian countries have. It also doesn’t help that we have Republican scare mongering as the default mode setting when talking about healthcare systems.”

    This, I think, is plain truth. Many have experienced no insurance & some more or less good insurance. They can’t imagine a system in which they don’t have to stress so much about it.

    Reading this takes me back to a twitter thread that I saw months ago from an American who lived overseas in Europe, and thought that they had ‘ found a lump’.
    Reading through that thread, and how easy it was for them to deal with it. Made me so mad to read that thread, because we don’t have anything comparable in America. I read that thread, but, think about all the folks who didn’t, and if you told them that it was possible to have that kind of easy experience with such a serious health issue, they wouldn’t believe you. They don’t think it exists.

    ReplyReply
  203. 203
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Kay: I hadn’t thought of those complications just because I find the idea of driverless cars kind of creepy (yes, Luddite). Do they take themselves to the gas station? are we gonna have Murph back at the ol’ 76? Park themselves when not in use?

    ReplyReply
  204. 204
    Another Scott says:

    @Baud: Everyone who doesn’t enthusiastically vote GOP is “far left” to these people. Everything’s binary to them. Or so they talk – it’s probably just regurgitated talking points with people like Ted.

    Grr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  205. 205
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: From the tenor of your comments on trade during this primary season, I am getting the impression that you oppose any trade restrictions. I may be reading too much, too little, or both into your comments, but no trade is completely free and there are often good reasons for trade restrictions. For example, putting high tariffs on imports of/providing subsidies for products from a sector that is necessary for national security – agriculture, aviation, etc.

    ETA: If I have been reading you incorrectly, then just ignore the rest of this comment.

    ReplyReply
  206. 206
    Leto says:

    @Kay: I was listening to a report yesterday regarding grocery stores making food deliveries to people’s homes. Similar argument. Before, the customer took care of most of the work: went to the store in their vehicle, picked the product off the shelves, packed it, took it back to their homes, took it inside, and put it away. With food delivery, most of those tasks are now being done by the store, and those extra costs add up. Customers don’t want to pay extra because they’re used to cheap food, but now the store has extra costs (vehicle fleet, extra employees, etc…)

    I see this as sort of the reverse of the Uber issue.

    ReplyReply
  207. 207
  208. 208
    Another Scott says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Warren is a reasonably quick study. And I don’t think the DNA thing has legs anymore myself. She apologized in April. And she apologized again in August.

    “Like anyone who’s being honest with themselves, I know that I have made mistakes,” said Ms. Warren, who was met with a standing ovation when she took the stage. “I am sorry for harm I have caused. I have listened and I have learned a lot, and I am grateful for the many conversations that we’ve had together.”

    She continued, “It is a great honor to be able to partner with Indian Country, and that’s what I’ve tried to do as a senator, and that’s what I promise I will do as president of the United States of America.”

    It’s hard to see that it’s damaging to her when she got a standing ovation.

    An African American friend told me last night that he’ll “never” support Harris because of her record as a prosecutor and “I know her type”. He didn’t go into details and we kinda dropped it. I found it curious, though, that he has such a visceral dislike of her. People have different perspectives now (and maybe going forward).

    As I keep saying here, it’s still very early. Lots will happen between now and when we actually vote. I’m mostly keeping my powder dry, myself, though I did donate to Warren, Harris, and Castro last night. We’ll see what happens.

    YMMV. :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  209. 209
    Leto says:

    @rikyrah: I think I saw that same thread. There’s also numerous Reddit threads of the same vein. I 100% understand people’s fears because I had the same fears when moving from a universal coverage system (the military) to a private insurance system. And most of my fears were well founded and came true.

    But at some point this system has to change. It’s untenable and produces horrible results for the money spent. How we persuade the rest of the country to move that way is still the question.

    ReplyReply
  210. 210
    StringOnAStick says:

    @Another Scott: I “like” that I was able to get both knees replaced this year at the facility that is also the U.S. Olympic medical center, because the prior insurance plan we had did not include that practice group. I “hate” that since that point I get letters every fucking day from the insurance company that are copies of all the harassment they are using against providers to dispute as much as they possibly can, and include a statement that “you may be responsible to pay X”. My PT says they get more of this crap from my insurance company than any of their other patients. I love having insurance that fixed my knees, but I truly hate the endless deluge of letters in hostile corporate -speak that is all about contesting, delaying payment, dumping stress on us as we try to figure out what it will finally cost us. I’m betting it will be over a year before all claims are settled. This kind of inefficiency has to increase costs throughout system.

    One of the mango menace ‘s stupid and out of touch statements included the term “their beloved insurance companies”; yeah, everyone who has had to deal with health insurance companies over the care they received will use a lot of words about the experience but I can guarantee that “beloved” will not be one of them.

    ReplyReply
  211. 211
    Another Scott says:

    @Yarrow: Biden’s suit was so immaculate it looked like it had some sort of internal framework holding him up. It was too perfect.

    I LOLed about the remark last night about Bernie’s shoulders being 6″ higher than everyone else’s. Too true…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  212. 212
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @glory b:

    The lack of enthusiasm black people have for Warren hardly ever gets mentioned. Steve Kornacki said she’s been stuck in single digits with us. 10% is the best she’s done.

    I fret about this a lot, though I’m not sure what to do about it. I am firmly convinced that black people, especially the black women are the heart and soul and future of our party. I really want to know why there is this enthusiasm gap, and though I’m firmly in the Warren camp, I would hate to see her take the White House without closing that gap.

    ReplyReply
  213. 213
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Kay:

    Stuart Rothenberg
    @StuPolitics
    ·11h
    Warren explains how she will pay for her health care plan. Not.

    Pet peeve (pointing at Stuart Rothenberg, not Kay): this is not how the “not” joke works. The movie “Borat” is partly to blame, as the “comedy coach” in it explains it incorrectly. On the other hand, Mike Myers used to do it properly in “Wayne’s World.”

    The word “not” must be added to the end of a sentence, thereby changing its meaning. The word “not” is not appended as its own sentence fragment. Were Mr. Rothenberg doing this correctly, his tweet would have read “Warren explains how she will pay for her health care plan. She really did…NOT!”

    I know that explaining has been helpful and interesting to you all. Not! Uh, never mind….

    ReplyReply
  214. 214
    Elizabelle says:

    @Leto: The LA Times had a marvelous article. Do share it among your friends.

    LA Times: Americans’ struggles with medical bills are a foreign concept in other countries

    “The U.S. likes to see itself on par with other high-income countries,” said Jonathan Cylus, a former economist at the Department of Health and Human Services who now studies patient costs internationally at the World Health Organization and European Observatory in London. “The truth is, it’s a real outlier.”

    Nearly all of America’s global competitors — whether they have government health plans, such as Britain and Canada, or rely on private insurers, such as Germany and the Netherlands — strictly limit out-of-pocket costs.

    … But the experiences of other wealthy nations suggest that strict limits on how much patients must pay and tight regulation of prices are more consequential than whether health coverage is provided directly by the government or through private insurers.

    “There isn’t one system that works,” said Thomas Rice, a UCLA health economist who is writing a textbook about health insurance systems around the world. “Lots of different kinds of systems can protect patients from high costs.”

    … Physicians’ services and hospital care are also far pricier in the U.S., data show.

    A knee replacement that costs more than $28,000 on average here costs about $18,000 in Britain and less than $16,000 in Australia, according to 2015 figures collected by the London-based International Federation of Health Plans.

    The average price for heart bypass surgery tops $78,000 in the U.S. The same procedure costs less than $29,000 in Australia and $24,000 in Britain.

    When medical and pharmaceutical prices are high, insurers pass the costs on to patients. That has fueled higher premiums and, in more recent years, skyrocketing deductibles.

    “People may not make the connection, but what’s coming out of their pockets is the result of a failure to control prices,” said Dr. Eric Schneider, senior vice president of the Commonwealth Fund.

    “What other countries have learned is that without some form of price regulation, there is no effective check on prices.”

    Whole thing is worth a click. Lots of memorable points. Concrete examples. UK: prescriptions capped at $12, no matter what the drug. Etc etc.

    There has to be the political will to stop gouging patients and insurers for out of control costs.

    ReplyReply
  215. 215
    rikyrah says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    . I really want to know why there is this enthusiasm gap, and though I’m firmly in the Warren camp, I would hate to see her take the White House without closing that gap.

    How can she take the White House, if she can’t get out of the Southern primaries?

    ReplyReply
  216. 216
    waratah says:

    @Elizabelle: Beto said on twitter and not one question on women rights. Not his exact wording but my understanding including the right to make decisions on her own body. Beto is very strong with woman’s rights.

    ReplyReply
  217. 217
    Elizabelle says:

    @Steve in the ATL: To me, the will to reform a system is way more important than how you pay for it. The details can be worked out. With more available health care, costs will come down in the long run. Not to mention the lives saved or improved.

    Rothenberg, and all those blonde TV bots who zing candidates with “but how will you pay for it?” have it ass-backwards. On purpose, it would seem.

    ReplyReply
  218. 218

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think you are reading too much into it. Tariffs contract the size of market, and the consumers of the country that imposes the tariffs ends up paying more. So tariffs act as a tax. This Econ 101 stuff. Wealth of Nations stuff. That’s exactly what is happening with T’s tariffs.

    United States spent a lot of political capital getting GATT and its successor WTO passed. And now saying that we will become protectionist if you don’t agree to our demands is not that different from Orange T. Also these deals are negotiated for years Warren lead the charge against the TPP. She was also among those who said that Ds had cheated Sanders in 2016.

    I am not shall we say a huge fan or stan or whatever the new jargon is.

    ReplyReply
  219. 219
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Steve in the ATL:
    She didn’t? I thought Warren’s flaw was that she explained everything, like an overzealous schoolmarm.

    ReplyReply
  220. 220
    Leto says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: From the article I linked above:

    Recent polls have suggested that Warren has struggled so far in her presidential run to gain widespread support among black voters. But in the audience at the She the People gathering were politically active women of color from across the country.

    “[Warren] was able to respond to issues with a level of depth and sincerity on that stage that I think has reverberated ’til today,” said Aimee Allison, who organized the event. “She talked really heart to heart with this group, and she impressed 2,000 organizers from swing states across the South and Southwest, and people sang from the rooftops.”

    From the reporting, and from the people there, it seemed that Warren was the best received. The group included Sanders, Harris, Booker, Beto, Castro, and Klobuchar. Is it her clothing as Cat suggests? The fact that she was a former Republican? Pragmatic approach of, just beat Trumpov? I don’t know.

    ReplyReply
  221. 221
    Elizabelle says:

    Yea newspapers, particularly the Washington Post: breaking news: WaPost:

    UVA Health System revamps debt collection after story details lawsuits pushing patients into bankruptcy

    Independent experts said, however, that the new policy, which comes after a Kaiser Health News investigation published in The Post detailed UVA’s aggressive practices, still leaves patients exposed to lawsuits and crippling bills.

    It’s a start.

    ReplyReply
  222. 222
    Aleta says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Mike Myers used to do it properly in “Wayne’s World.”

    This part is very important. Tell the children to pass it down.

    (not sarc. btw What’s the opposite of the sarc mark?) —

    ReplyReply
  223. 223
    Leto says:

    @Elizabelle: Thanks, will do!

    ReplyReply
  224. 224
    Another Scott says:

    In other news, GovExec:

    President Trump’s pick to lead the U.S. Air Force has promised lawmakers that she will look into military policies related to whether U.S. servicemembers should be allowed to spend government funds to stay at properties owned by the president — but stopped short of condemning the practice.

    “What we need to do is have rules and regulations that are applied evenly in that are thoughtful and do include appearances in those rules and regulations,” Barbara Barrett told members of the Senate Armed Services Committee during her confirmation hearing on Thursday morning. “But…they should not be specific to any particular owner.”

    Air Force crews have routinely lodged at Trump’s luxury Turnberry resort in Scotland en route to different locations, Politico reported. Defense officials say that the stays have been well within the per-diem rate allowed by a routine Air Force travel system, and that no policies were violated during the Turnberry stays. On Sept. 9, Air Force officials announced that they would review their procedures for choosing overnight lodging for personnel.

    That hardly mollified Democrats who say the stays violate the Constitution’s emoluments clause that bars public officials from enriching themselves through government functions.

    “The appearance, wholly apart from the reality, of the president profiting from Department of Defense expenditures at properties he owns is absolutely unacceptable,” Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., told Barrett. “Wouldn’t a clear policy, as you’ve suggested, against violations of both the domestic and the foreign emoluments clause prevent the commander-in-chief from profiting from Department of Defense expenditures?”

    “I understand the question and I understand the concern, but if there were a shareholder in a company that owns hotels, should that be excluded from military housing or military involvement?” Barrett said.

    […]

    She knows who butters her bread, amirite??

    Grrr…

    I see an Emoluments case is back on as of this AM. Probably means that the SCOTUS is going to rule on it eventually. Will we get another IOKIYAR ruling?

    Grrr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  225. 225
    jeffreyw says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I don’t know why they are not big fans of Warren but I am sure that they will vote for her in overwhelming numbers should she be the nominee.

    ReplyReply
  226. 226

    Still love Warren, still think Biden is slipping, still think Castro is bizarrely mean during debates, still find little appealing with Harris, still like Pete but he needs to move past/expand his shtick, for the first time I liked Beto, Bernie was surprisingly good but I will always think he’d be a bad president, there were other people on stage too.

    So I guess what changed for me is that I like Beto now. I did think this debate clarified and solidified the rest of my thoughts though.

    ETA: Since we’re talking trade, I don’t like Warren’s trade policy. But I also think as a polity we are pivoting towards trade idiocy en masse and I can’t imagine any candidate running on (properly managed) free trade in either the primary or the general. So I guess I just have to live with this.

    ReplyReply
  227. 227
    trollhattan says:

    @Yarrow:
    Heh.

    As a side comment, Donny evidently made up the Ivana as Olympic skier story, as their records show no trace of her being on the team or competing for the country.

    He has always been a compulsive liar and nothing and nobody is ever good enough and thus, requires embellishment.

    ReplyReply
  228. 228
    jeffreyw says:

    @Kay: I think this may be the correct take on it. People will buy timeshares in electric vehicles. The organizing company probably won’t be Uber, and the time shares will be in a service, not an actual vehicle – just rides in a vehicle. The company employees will be in sales, acquisition, maintenance, overseeing garage/charging facilities.

    ReplyReply
  229. 229
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @rikyrah: Good question, and I hope one that Warren’s people take seriously.

    ReplyReply
  230. 230
    glory b says:

    @schrodingers_cat: yes, mean girl moment! I am so sick of Elizabeth Warren wearing the black pants, black top and colored jacket. Change up your wardrobe girl!

    ReplyReply
  231. 231
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Major Major Major Major: pretty much where I am, I just wish Warren hadn’t gone all-in on single payer, which I think will be a drag on her and on down-ticket races

    ReplyReply
  232. 232
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    also, as a dumb guy on the internet offering advice to experienced and accomplshed politicians with track records and shit, wouldn’t it be a good idea to start talking about trump’s corruption on the stump? Not necessarily impeachment or the dread ‘process’ but, “And I can guarantee you this: I’m not running for the White House to make money out of it!”

    ReplyReply
  233. 233
    James E Powell says:

    @Leto:

    Most people “like” their employer provided coverage because they’ve never had any other type of system.

    Exactly. Most people will say they like what they have when it is compared with something they do not know or understand. And the way the question is phrased might have a great deal of influence.

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  234. 234
    trollhattan says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    My start would be to promise, here and now, that no Nazis or Klansmen will be part of my administration.

    Then with guilt by association in mind, not one judge from the Federalist Society will be considered for nomination.

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  235. 235

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: yeah I think that’s an understandable decision for her as a politician but it’s still a bad one.

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  236. 236

    @glory b: High five! And a shade of lipstick that is not the palest pale neutral. That bright red jacket was just making her look ghostly pale. I do like her glasses though. She should borrow AOC’s red lipstick.
    ETA: We need to have a RL meetup. Are you in NJ or I am mixing you up with someone else.

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  237. 237
    gvg says:

    @Kay: My suspicion, hearing these results with so few individual Republican donors, is that the rest are giving in some untraceable, unregulated way. To pacs that don’t disclose for instance, but happily at least some of it gets diverted to grift. I don’t trust such odd results.

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  238. 238
    gvg says:

    @James E Powell: After seeing how the GOP has attacked the ACA and all kinds of healthcare coverage the last 10 years, I am afraid to try to build something radically new. The current system made allies of already existing institutions and people. I think it would be easier for a backlash to develop for something totally new and the backlash elected do a more effective job of screwing people to death. I really would be afraid, more afraid than before ACA, to “get rid” of the current system. We need to improve, not reinvent the wheel.
    I am sorry about that, because our byzantine system drives me crazy, but we are 10 years on, and I guess I have learned people don’t appreciate new things like they logically should.

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  239. 239
    The Moar You Know says:

    I am firmly convinced that black people, especially the black women are the heart and soul and future of our party. I really want to know why there is this enthusiasm gap, and though I’m firmly in the Warren camp, I would hate to see her take the White House without closing that gap.

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: They’re backing Biden. People here might want to think about why that might be.

    And on the subject of Biden, damn, Castro is an asshole. If I wanted that kind of behavior out of the person I vote for I’d just vote for Trump because he is far better at it.

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  240. 240

    @gvg: It was not until 2011 that ACA went online and TBH I liked Massachusetts system way better than I like the ACA. Overhauling the entire payment structure for one of the biggest sectors of the economy is not going to be a cakewalk, even if everyone was in agreement.

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  241. 241
    sheila in nc says:

    @geg6: Re lack of T donors in the database: Perhaps a higher percentage of R’s are donating to PACs rather than candidates.

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  242. 242
    glory b says:

    @Leto: @Leto: Yes, but that warm, fuzzy feeling didn’t translate into more overall support.
    And, as I understand was reported in the FYNYT, black people are simultaneously the most reliable and most conservative dems.

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  243. 243
    glory b says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m in Pittsburgh, work in geg6’s turf. Beaver, Butler, Lawrence and Mercer counties.

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  244. 244
    glory b says:

    @The Moar You Know: here’s another thing, I don’t think people realize how many people have good paying jobs in the health care, insurance and banking Industries. In Pittsburgh, there are platoons of Millennials and younger people, of all colors, catching buses into downtown office buildings or working in suburban office parks who don’t have degrees but managed to make a good living working in those Industries. I have two friends and a relative who moved from customer support positions (none of them have degrees either) into management. One became a VP, with 2 years of college. I think that no one is thinking about how those folks are going to vote. Will they vote for somebody who will do away with their jobs?

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  245. 245

    @schrodingers_cat:

    It was not until 2011 that ACA went online

    IIRC it was fall 2013.

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  246. 246
    Cacti says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    She didn’t? I thought Warren’s flaw was that she explained everything, like an overzealous schoolmarm.

    For all of the plans she has, her healthcare plan is cribbed from Bernie.

    If she had one of her own, she could probably articulate it better.

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  247. 247
    J R in WV says:

    @Nicole:

    For fun, I posted on FB comments about the white male candidates that are things I’ve heard about women and I was all the way to the 4th one before my FB friends really caught on (I ended up doing five because one friend then requested that I do de Blasio, too, even though he wasn’t on the stage).

    Also, Wonkette’s liveblog was really funny.

    Ok, so now you’re bragging about your treasonous sharing of thoughts elsewhere than B-J??? Twitters? Wonkette?!?!?!?

    LEast you can do is repost them here~!

    //s

    ;-)

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  248. 248
    J R in WV says:

    @Nicole:

    @OzarkHillbilly: For full effect, imagine them posted individually, about a half hour between each

    OK, NOW you are forgiven. That’s hysterical.

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  249. 249
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Thank you for the Econ 101 lesson. I understand that there are few economic justifications for trade barriers. There, however, are many non-economic reasons for trade restrictions. Politics, human rights, national security, etc. All it takes is a decision that the other reasons for trade restrictions be seen as more important than the drag on the economy. Some these decisions are good and others are not.

    Trump doesn’t understand either international trade or international politics. His decisions on the subject will always be stupid.

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  250. 250
    J R in WV says:

    @Ken:

    @Jinchi:

    I won’t believe Biden is ready for prime time until I stop reading “Biden wins by not imploding on screen” hot takes from the political press.

    That’s the new standard for President, or at least for old white guy presidents. Remarkable how it took the media less that two years to be trained to the new standard.

    “Less than two years to be trained!”? It took twenty minutes after inauguration!

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  251. 251

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Trump doesn’t understand either international trade or international politics. His decisions on the subject will always be stupid.

    Agreed 100% and on this happy note of agreement, we can close this discussion.

    @glory b: I have been to Philly several times but not to Pittsburgh.

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  252. 252
    J R in WV says:

    @Baud:

    @bupalos:

    You wouldn’t like Warren’s response last night then because she said you get to keep your doctor.

    That only applies to the 57 people who have a family doctor, though!

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  253. 253
    NY Robbin says:

    @Kay:

    I don’t doubt it, but I don’t know that that’s anything to brag about.

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  254. 254
    sigyn says:

    @bemused: @geg6: Same!……Huh!!?!

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  255. 255
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I’m in the same position except that I also really like Harris. I do have some concerns about her campaign’s inability to control the narrative and/or media attention, and I’m also concerned about the extremely high amount of trolls and wankers I see on her facebook/twitter threads.

    For some reason, rightwing trolls seem REALLY triggered by her. They’re far more racist, sexist, and otherwise deplorable than they seem to be with other candidates.

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  256. 256
    Dan B says:

    @Kay: Thanks for your comments on Warren’s trade policy. Protectionist seemed out of character for her but I could see protecting unions and human rights as in sync. It would make sense if there were a misinformation campaign by a Koch/right wing or Russian FSB outfit(s). Makes more sense . A “Protectionist” label would divide Democrats.

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  257. 257
    smintheus says:

    @glory b:

    Also, black women worked HARD for Clinton, she seemed to hand wave that away when she said the DNC rigged the primary against Bernie. Why does she think that happened? She never explained.

    DWS was doing her damnedest trying to smooth the way for Clinton’s coronation. You’d have to have been blind not to notice that.

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  258. 258
    Dan B says:

    @Soprano2: Response to “Should we all go vegan to combat climate change?” You mean like Tom Brady and Gisele Bundchen? Lets have a serious question. Can we Americans address the climate crisis and keep a great economy? Yes we can, we’re Americans! We’ve taken on challenges before. In fact the future economy will be in green energy. Green careers are the big growth opportunity and careers that are, unlike fossil fuels, resistant to automation.

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  259. 259
    smintheus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: If O’Rourke and Harris had offered remotely as many specific policies as Warren has done, you’d almost certainly find something they favored that you don’t. But they’re running mostly on their personalities with a lot of hand waving at policy and things they (supposedly) did or stood for in the past. Unlike Warren, their actual records in the past don’t line up all that well with their current public iterations, but I guess that’s not really important as long as they speak well.

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  260. 260
    Michael Cain says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I hadn’t thought of those complications just because I find the idea of driverless cars kind of creepy (yes, Luddite). Do they take themselves to the gas station? are we gonna have Murph back at the ol’ 76? Park themselves when not in use?

    Most of that. For an outfit like Uber, they head back to the nearest giant Uber warehouse where they get vacuumed, refueled, and park themselves until they’re needed. Run themselves through the car wash once a week. Stop at one of the repair bays when the central computer tells them to. If the cars are small electrics, refuel turns into recharge inductively while they’re parked, and most of the repair bays go away.

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  261. 261
    smintheus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Oh FFS, as a private person Warren stared down Obama repeatedly with regard to holding financial institutions accountable as his Wall St. whizzes tried and failed to co-opt her. What bully has Harris ever stared down? Yes, we’ve seen her posturing at hearings and debates, but that’s a rhetorical display. Point us to some substance where she’s actually done something to back up the word pictures she paints of herself.

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  262. 262
    smintheus says:

    @Leto: The great majority of people who have private insurance, at any given time, have never had to use it except for relatively normal and modest medical issues – particularly because insurance plans change all the time. So their opinions about their own plans are largely useless: what they’re really saying is that they’re happy to have the appearance (or feeling) of having good insurance. When people do have to rely upon private insurance for something big or prolonged or expensive, often their attitudes change in a hurry because their earlier perceptions about their plans turn out to be overly optimistic.

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  263. 263
    JAFD says:

    @Michael Cain: Interesting bit about trials of driverless vehicles in London
    http://diamondgeezer.blogspot......ility.html

    (Note: if you’re interested in English transport, etc, ‘diamondgeezer’ is first-class timesink.)

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