Open Thread: Appreciating the 1619 Project for Its Detractors

I’m nowhere near finished reading the NYTimes‘ whole 1619 Project (wish I’d found a print edition yesterday, frankly), but IMO it will have an impact on The Discourse similar to that of Ta-Nehisi Coates’ Atlantic article. And, yes, one sure signifier of its importance is the volume and intensity of the hatred directed against it by the Usual Suspects (few, if any, of whom could’ve read so much as Nikole Hannah-Jones’ introductory essay before taking their grievances public). The pushback was, thankfully, immediate…


They’ve picked their defense, and they’re gonna stick with it, pathetic though it may be:






186 replies
  1. 1

    We should probably write thank-you notes to the folks behind the 1619 Project for revealing who read a history book and who read a fantasy novel

    I’m actually taking a break from fantasy to read history for once! Somebody here recommended “Embracing Defeat” a while back, about the American occupation of Japan, and I just got off the wait list. Really interesting stuff.

    the post-Potsdam formulations explicitly mandated the promotion of policies “which permit a wide distribution of income and of the ownership of the means of production and trade.” To this end, planners in Washington called for “dissolution of the large industrial and banking combinations which have exercised control of a great part of Japan’s trade and industry.” This amounted to ordering a direct attack on both the older zaibatsu that had dominated the nation’s economic growth since the early twentieth century and the “new zaibatsu” that emerged in the course of the country’s mobilization for war. In tandem with such an antitrust campaign, the supreme commander was directed to promote labor unions and carry out a sweeping land-reform program.

    Supreme Commander MacArthur 2020!

  2. 2
    zhena gogolia says:

    Wow, I haven’t started reading it yet, but these tweets make me resolve to read the whole thing. It’s sitting on my bed!

  3. 3
    Baud says:

    It has all the right enemies.

  4. 4
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Baud:

    This is why I keep my subscription. The Times is not a monolith.

  5. 5
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Never forget that the National Socialist Review was founded to support segregation.

  6. 6
    feathers says:

    In case someone missed the earlier post, here’s a link to the complete pdf, outside the NYT paywall:

    1619 Project PDF, Pulitzer Center

  7. 7
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @zhena gogolia: Ditto, except phone, not hard copy, for the next several long, dull bus commutes.

    OT? So I’m invited to a meet-and-greet with Amy Klobuchar this weekend. She’s not among my top 5 primary candidates, but still well within “would crawl over broken glass to vote for her in the general” territory. Should I go? If yes, what should I ask/say to her? I’ve paid very little attention to her so far. And I’m aware this type of event is mostly about her asking for money, but I don’t have to play by that rule.

  8. 8

    @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: go for it! She’s no monster, salad comb notwithstanding.

    I’d like to hear all the candidates field questions about housing policy, personally.

  9. 9
    rikyrah says:

    The snowflakes are ridiculous 😠😠

    How dare folks tell.the truth about American history.😒😒

  10. 10

    Have we talked about how Harris is skipping the next debate, citing a scheduling conflict? Must be something pretty important. I have no reason not to believe her, but I just thought it was an odd choice.

    ETA source https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/19/politics/cnn-climate-crisis-town-hall/

    ETAA I stand corrected, that’s the climate town hall. Makes more sense!

  11. 11
    sigaba says:

    Nota bene, Newt Gingrich has a doctorate in history.

  12. 12
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I hadn’t heard that. that’s bad

  13. 13
    Mike in NC says:

    Newton Leroy Gingrich, 1943-2019

    God doesn’t love us enough.

  14. 14
    Yarrow says:

    @Major Major Major Major: It sounds like it’s a town hall on climate change, not the next official Dem debate. The Sunrise Movement is upset she’s skipping it, which kind of makes me like her more.

  15. 15

    I have downloaded the pdf. My one exception to the no NYT rule.

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    No, but their domestic politics undermines all their good work.

  17. 17
    Baud says:

    @Yarrow:

    That makes more sense. The dates for the real debate have been set for months.

  18. 18
    Spanky says:

    @sigaba: “Belgian Education Policy in the Congo, 1945-1960” was his PhD Thesis from Tulane.

  19. 19
    debbie says:

    I thought the GOP had reached the bottom in 2012 with that Michelle Bachman–led study group that issued a proclamation claiming slavery had been better for African Americans than Obama. Thanks, Newt, for plunging to new depths.

  20. 20
    Spanky says:

    @Mike in NC: 2019 is not yet done with Newton Leroy.

  21. 21
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Have we talked about how Harris is skipping the next debate, citing a scheduling conflict? Must be something pretty important.

    Considering its a CNN style townhall, there are many things Harris would have to do that are more important. Like watering her dog or walking her lawn.

  22. 22

    @Yarrow: doh, thanks! I was really scratching my head. Corrected above.

  23. 23

    @TenguPhule:

    Considering its a CNN style townhall, there are many things Harris would have to do that are more important. Like watering her dog or walking her lawn.

    god forbid somebody go on a tv channel you don’t like to talk at length about humanity’s greatest problem, in what is thus far the only opportunity the candidates have to do so

  24. 24
    Woodrow/Asim says:

    Leroy’s Fox News bit is exactly why we Americans cannot have nice things.

    It’s not just the causal racism. It’s the way race keeps getting bent to make people money on the backs of so goddamn many. So fucking much of conservatism desperately needs race as it’s default go-to well of fuel to “work”. And as we know, it falls back to gender and assholic views on sex/uality (among many other groups) when our morals and ethics finally, desperately get twigged that maybe Slavery/Jim Crow/etc. are, you know, BAD.

    That’s the work now, to expose this shit, and keep exposing it when it tries to find another group to exploit.

    I’ve got a stack of books I’ve been reading since 2016 on these topics, and I’m so glad to see a major publication, problematic as the FYNYT is, bring these writers and concepts to the fore.

  25. 25
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Will it really be a debate with no one taking the anti-Earth side?

  26. 26
    chris says:

    @debbie: Gak! Stephen Miller worked for Bachman, did he write that?

  27. 27
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    god forbid somebody go on a tv channel you don’t like for the only opportunity thus far to talk at length about humanity’s greatest problem

    Have we learned nothing from how bad CNN is at giving Democrats a chance to present their views to the audience?

  28. 28
    Kay says:

    I’m reading the financial section- starts p. 30:

    When seeking loans, planters used enslaved people as collateral.Thomas Jefferson mortgaged 150 of his enslaved workers to build Monticello. People could be sold much more easily than land, and in multiple Southern states, more than eight in 10 mortgage-secured loans used enslaved people as full or partial collateral. As the historian Bonnie Martin has written, ‘‘slaveowners worked their slaves financially, as well as physically from colonial days until emancipation’’ by mortgaging people to buy more people.

  29. 29
    TenguPhule says:

    @Baud:

    Will it really be a debate with no one taking the anti-Earth side?

    Chuck Todd would like you to hold his beer.

  30. 30
    Baud says:

    @TenguPhule:

    He moved to CNN?

  31. 31

    @TenguPhule:

    Have we learned nothing from how bad CNN is at giving Democrats a chance to present their views to the audience?

    very good we’ll just continue not talking about humanity’s greatest challenge until a suitable teevee channel can be found

  32. 32
    Sure Lurkalot says:

    I got a hard copy and have gotten through about a third of it. So sad heads are sploding. The essays I’ve read so far are thought provoking and varied in their focus. The introductory essay is really something to read again and again.

  33. 33
    TenguPhule says:

    @Baud:

    He moved to CNN?

    In this timeline, sure why not.

  34. 34
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Major Major Major Major: There’s a non-DNC sponsored CNN Town Hall on climate change and she has a longstanding fundraiser planned, basically.

    This is another case of “not a big deal but it doesn’t look good superficially.” Its the same sort of shit ad “gave speeches to banks”.

  35. 35
    James E Powell says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Are we sure it’s a bad move? These debates are stupid and, in most respects, pointless for gaining ground in Iowa, NH, and other early primary states.

  36. 36
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    very good we’ll just continue not talking about humanity’s greatest challenge until a suitable teevee channel can be found

    Silence is still preferable to “Why are Democrats against CO^2, Its what plants crave!” or “History’s Greatest Monster, EPA or DOE?”

  37. 37
    zhena gogolia says:

    @James E Powell:

    I thought they were talking about one of the DNC debates.

  38. 38
    Jay says:

    The 1619 Project sure is pulling off some hoods.— Megan Romer (@meganromer) August 18, 2019

  39. 39
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Major Major Major Major: This is the major problem I have with it. It doesn’t bug me hugely because Harris IS pretty good on the climate. But she should know better and should skip her fundraiser and apologize to those donors. And then do the town hall.

  40. 40
    Baud says:

    @TenguPhule:

    It won’t be that. It’ll be about costs and taxes and jobs.

  41. 41
    Woodrow/Asim says:

    @sigaba: I have a High School…pal? Who’s got a Masters in History.

    He decided to descend into gun nuttiness, which led to the Tea Party, which led to, last I saw him, some passive-aggressive Transphobia that he KNOWS I don’t stand for, and will happily clap back on.

    So yeah — I’ll put my hours of study, writing, and $$$$ spent researching Ottoman, South Indian, and American Civil War history (among other points) over his degree, 10 days outta 9.

    Assholes like Leroy hide behind degrees they piss on, every time they talk. All they want is to abuse historical facts to hurt people what ain’t like them, and we should all be willing to call that shit out.

  42. 42
    Kay says:

    I donated to Warren today to be entered in her sweepstakes to go to a debate in, I think, Houston. I’m completely confident I’ll win. She hasn’t called me so she better come thru on this or she can kiss any future 5 dollar donations goodbye.

  43. 43
    Baud says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Why? If the lack of visibility hurts her it hurts her, but she doesn’t need to be saying “how high” when the media says jump.

  44. 44
    Jay says:

    one of these days i will write about how nearly every “modern” criticism of the founders on race and slavery was levied against them at the time by contemporaries on both sides of the atlantic https://t.co/LLnuWxRzjE— b-boy bouiebaisse (@jbouie) August 19, 2019

  45. 45
    TenguPhule says:

    @Baud:

    It won’t be that. It’ll be about costs and taxes and jobs.

    Its CNN.

  46. 46
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    I hope you lose because otherwise you’d have to go to Houston.

  47. 47
    debbie says:

    @chris:

    I didn’t know that’s where Miller came from and I can’t find anything connecting his name to it, but it sounds right that he might have been in on the writing.

  48. 48

    @Baud:

    It’ll be about costs and taxes and jobs.

    This is fine. Being able to explain why we should make the changes necessary to minimize climate change is a prerequisite for doing anything to minimize climate change.

  49. 49
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Baud: Because she’s getting bad coverage for it, basically. It sucks, but now theres yet another cudgel and it amounts to “Harris says fuck the climate so she can schmooze with rich people.”

    I’ve already seen this popping up all over Harris’ feed and more than a few people complaining about it. It’s dishonest and wrong, but that’s how it’ll be described.

  50. 50
    Jay says:

    Notice that the same folks jumping into the 1619 convo to demand white America be given more credit for abolishing slavery 150 years ago are not interested in dismantling systemic racism now. LOL— Bree Newsome Bass (@BreeNewsome) August 19, 2019

  51. 51
    Jay says:

    The fact that it took 5 years, international activism, and multiple investigations to get Daniel Pantaleo fired for killing Eric Garner ON VIDEO with a banned chokehold says everything we need to know about the value of Black life in America.— Marc Lamont Hill (@marclamonthill) August 19, 2019

  52. 52
    Baud says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Then she doesn’t win the primary. I don’t see a reason to fret over every strategic decision a candidate makes.

  53. 53
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    We’ll see how it goes. Better to deal with it sooner rather than later.

  54. 54
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Major Major Major Major: It’s an excellent opportunity to talk about the costs of not acting. It’s like replacing a window after it breaks: it costs some money to fix that you could spend somewhere else, but on the other hand you’re keeping you r house from getting wet, moldy, and letting animals in.

    A fiery delivery about this (with a better analogy) could get a candidate some real fans.

  55. 55
    debbie says:

    @Jay:

    You must not be very familiar with Staten Island. //

  56. 56
    Ohio Mom says:

    No discussion on the detractors is complete without noting all the geniuses whose response to the essay titled “America wasn’t a democracy…” is, We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic!

    That proves the entirety of the 1619 Project is wrong, apparently.

  57. 57
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Baud: Yes. My criticism was that if she wants to win the primary then this was a bad idea. That’s really my entire point. :)

    I dont think it will matter much for the overall climate effort. A CNN townhall is not going to generate extensive climate action.

  58. 58

    It has been and continues to be a mystery why anyone pays any attention to Newt Gingrich. The fucking lizard needs a good stomp, and that’s about all he’s worth.

    Conservatives: Slavery can’t be all that bad, look at the economic prosperity it created in America.

    NYT 1619: Slavery created a lot of America’s economic prosperity.

    Conservatives: 1619 is anti-American and anyone that reads it hates liberty.

    Winner, Best of Show

  59. 59

    @MisterForkbeard: remember in 2016 when Hillary answered a question about late-term abortion with one of the best defenses of abortion rights I’ve ever heard a person deliver?

  60. 60
    Baud says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Ok. Who knows? I’m sure she took the risks into account.

  61. 61
    Baud says:

    @MisterForkbeard:
    @Major Major Major Major:

    It’ll be a little strange because there will be eight candidates on the stage who basically agree that they believe in science.

  62. 62
    Jay says:

    I want to highlight some very imp aspects of the #1619Project. To ensure this project didn't just reach people who could afford a @nytimes subscription, we printed more than 200K extra copies that we are distributing for FREE and I want to thank the folks who made that possible.— Ida Bae Wells (@nhannahjones) August 19, 2019

  63. 63

    @Baud: I am looking forward to hearing about their different ways of thinking about humanity’s greatest challenge and their different ways of approaching solutions to massive structural problems. Believing in climate change is not the minimum required to be effective at dealing with it, not by a long shot.

  64. 64
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I hope it’s that substantive.

  65. 65
    different-church-lady says:

    So wait, did Erickson just admit that Trump fans racial tension?

  66. 66
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    humanity’s greatest problem

    The mainstreaming of flip-flops? I don’t think of myself as an onion-on-the-belt curmudgeon, but I just can’t accept wearing flip-flops in public.

  67. 67

    @Steve in the ATL: I take it you haven’t seen the neon plastic Birkenstocks yet.

  68. 68
    TenguPhule says:

    @Baud:

    It’ll be a little strange because there will be eight candidates on the stage who basically agree that they believe in science.

    CNN will make it about “job killing changes” and “too much government regulation”.

    Conflict is their bread and butter.

  69. 69
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @sigaba: Which he got from Tulane during the late 60s/early 70s for writing a polemical apologia of the Belgian colonization and occupation of the Congo.

  70. 70
    namekarB says:

    @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:

    Should I go? If yes, what should I ask/say to her?

    Ask her what the she thinks is the World’s greatest threat and what she is going to do about it. If she doesn’t say Climate Change or just offers platitudes about solutions, then feel free to get up and leave.

  71. 71
    Baud says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Well, that’s my fear. But maybe it’ll be positive.

  72. 72
  73. 73

    @feathers:

    A word of warning: There is gruesome material in these pages, material that readers will find disturbing. That is, unfortunately, as it must be. American history cannot be told truthfully without a clear vision of how inhuman and immoral the treatment of black Americans has been. By acknowledging this shameful history, by trying hard to understand its powerful influence on the present, perhaps we can prepare ourselves for a more just future.

    This as far as I have read, and already anxious to read this. Thank you for sharing it with everyone.

  74. 74
    Jay says:

    Elizabeth Warren @ewarren at the 2020 presidential #NativeForum – "We need to honor the trust and treaty obligations of Native American people."LIVE NOW Watch the @IndianCountry Livestream here:https://t.co/Qp1HW5glWd pic.twitter.com/s4aStVdpoG— Vincent Schilling (@VinceSchilling) August 19, 2019

  75. 75

    @Baud: It won’t be. The Sunrise movement is inhabited by clowns. I can’t take them seriously. There seems to be a lot of overlap with the Justice Dem clown brigade which believes in hounding Ds for R sins.

  76. 76
    Baud says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Will they be asking questions? I assumed it would be CNN people.

  77. 77
    Zinsky says:

    The rapist-in-chief hasn’t read anything with 50,000 words in his wretched life. He may read the boxes on his library of VHS porn tapes but little else. Sick, degenerate pervert. Gingrich too.

  78. 78
    danielx says:

    @Kay:

    These days, they’d call that “leverage”. As I understand it, it’s one of Trump’s favorite business concepts, to the extent he can follow a concept.

    Also too – for a good conservative who doesn’t/shouldn’t give a flying fuck about what the NYT prints, Newton Leroy certainly does seem upset.

  79. 79

    @schrodingers_cat: they don’t have anything to do with the people who will be asking and answering the questions, though.

    CNN anchors Erin Burnett, Anderson Cooper, Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon will moderate individual candidate segments, and CNN Chief Climate Correspondent Bill Weir will join in the questioning throughout the event.

    ETA “The audience will be drawn from Democratic voters interested in the issue.”

  80. 80

    @Baud: There will be a lot of stupid gotcha questions and traps.

  81. 81

    @Adam L Silverman: I can’t see the book in the guy’s hand. I didn’t get the joke. It looks like a Soviet era poster.

  82. 82
    Ken says:

    @Spanky:

    “Belgian Education Policy in the Congo, 1945-1960”

    “Shoot them until they learn to follow orders” is kind of an education policy…

  83. 83
    Kay says:

    @danielx:

    I’m sick of them designating themselves as The Official Americans, against which all others are measured. No. It’s nonsense. I refuse.

  84. 84
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Oh, I missed that it was a town hall. Those have a different dynamic. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

  85. 85
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @debbie: ha ha yes Staten Island is the South with horrible, horrible accents!

  86. 86
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Baud: I will note and agree that she has a huge staff and advisors to figure this stuff out. Hopefully she games it out.

  87. 87
    Ed says:

    How white women’s “investment” in slavery has shaped America today
    Stephanie Jones-Rogers: They Were Her Property: White Women as Slave Owners in the American South

  88. 88
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    the Justice Dem clown brigade which believes in hounding Ds for R sins.

    QFT! Best description I’ve seen of these clowns.

    (Should I have posted a trigger warning for Omnes before mentioning clowns?)

  89. 89
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Major Major Major Major: TBH, I’d totally forgotten about that. :)

  90. 90
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Spanky: First High Lord Admiral of Space and Inaugural Fleet Commander of The Space Force!

  91. 91
    Kay says:

    The Onion
    @TheOnion
    ·8h
    Newt Gingrich Slams ‘New York Times’ 1619 Project As Shameless Abolitionist Propaganda

  92. 92
    Jay says:

    NEW: Students snapped Hitler salute and sang Nazi war song behind closed doors in Southern California https://t.co/TJKZLSUDZr pic.twitter.com/1h9EOnHch6— Justin Miller (@justinjm1) August 19, 2019

  93. 93
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TenguPhule: Time! Next commenter please.

  94. 94
    Duane says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I’d very much like to see housing addressed in a big way. Seems perfect for democrats. Health insurance, food security and public housing. Basic needs that everyone can understand. Conservatives got nothing but tax cuts to offer.
    I haven’t seen new public housing built here in decades. What happened?

  95. 95
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Adam L Silverman: seriously—has anyone done more harm to the continent of Africa than King Leopold II?

    @Ken: how about offer them the choice of “short sleeves or long sleeves” or “short pants or long pants”?

    (Don’t google that if you wish to retain your humanity)

  96. 96
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    When did the Onion start doing straight news.

  97. 97
    danielx says:

    CryptonMaximus
    🇺🇸
    ‏ @CryptonMaximus5
    6h6 hours ago
    Replying to @Will_Bunch

    The very fact that you call Trump a white supremacist shows that the entire purpose of the “1619 Project” is to demand all whites apologize for existing.
    1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes

    And, I’m sure he would add, you hate America too.

    There is no reasoning with people like this.

  98. 98
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @schrodingers_cat: It’s a modified DPRK poster. I’ll email it to you in a second.

  99. 99
    zhena gogolia says:

    @danielx:

    I actually would like to apologize for existing.

  100. 100
    Jay says:

    Dearest media people: all of the arrestees that have been charged in connection with the Cider Riot case were barred via release conditions from attending 8/17 protests. Why then was Joey Gibson given the white glove treatment by PPB while violating the terms of his ROR?— Amok Crime Boss ~ Bombshell Runs PDX ~ Always 161 (@B0m8sh3ll) August 19, 2019

  101. 101
    chris says:

    @debbie: Double gak! I’d forgotten all about that episode. But who can forget Ol’ Crazy Eyes and her batshit antics? The shitgibbon seems almost sane compared to Bachman.

    Miller moved on, or slimed up, in 2009. More gak.

    After graduating from college, Miller worked as a press secretary for Congresswoman Michele Bachmann and Congressman John Shadegg, both members of the Republican Party.[36] In 2009 Miller started working for Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions Wiki link

  102. 102
    danielx says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    I’ve got the same issue with (some) people wearing yoga pants. Some sights, unfortunately, simply cannot be erased from memory.

  103. 103
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ed: Please give me a few minutes to fish stuff out of moderation. I do, occasionally, have other things to do than liberate people’s comments. I know that’s crazy talk, but it’s true!

  104. 104
    danielx says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Well, if you must…..

  105. 105
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @danielx: The fact that we think the skies are blue with white clouds is obvious we just want the sky to apologize for being white”

    ETA: Wait, I got a much better one: I would certainly like to apologize for SOME white’s existing.”

  106. 106
    japa21 says:

    @MisterForkbeard: There was an old commercial which was, IIRC for an oil filter. The gist was, yes it costs money to change your filter, but it costs a lot more down the road if you don’t. The punch line was a mechanic saying, “You can pay me now or pay me later” with the understanding that the later payment would be far, far more than the now payment.

  107. 107
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: @MisterForkbeard: MSNBC is also doing a two day one in a few weeks that is being moderated/hosted by Ali Velshi host of MSNBC Live with Velshi & Ruhle, MSNBC Live with Ali Velshi, Ali in with Chris Hayes, and The Last Word with Lawrence O’Velshi.

  108. 108
    Kay says:

    Kristen Orthman
    @KristenOrthman
    ·2h
    .@ewarren
    and 12,000 (!!!) friends in the Twin Cities. Biggest crowd of the campaign.

    On a Monday night.

  109. 109

    @Duane:

    I haven’t seen new public housing built here in decades. What happened?

    I don’t know where ‘here’ is, but a lot of places don’t do it any more. Section 8 is sort of a rental credit (with strings attached), and can theoretically be used for renting anything.

    This system is frequently gamed into funneling low-income people into ghettos of low-quality housing. That should give us pause before we think that a true rental credit is a good idea, and not just a landlord subsidy. (Harris’s and Booker’s plans contain such a mechanism)

  110. 110
    Geoboy says:

    @sigaba: Yes, Gingrich has a doctorate in history, and the title of his PhD dissertation is “Belgian Education Policy in the Congo 1945–1960.” Enchante!

  111. 111
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Baud: I understand that Heidi Cruz rents out Ted’s room like a Bed and Breakfast sort of thing while he’s in DC. So she can stay there. I’m sure it’ll be fine.//

  112. 112
    James E Powell says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    remember in 2016 when Hillary answered a question about late-term abortion with one of the best defenses of abortion rights I’ve ever heard a person deliver?

    To be honest I don’t remember that. Did it have any affect on any outcomes? I don’t say this to be a dick, but these debates are not debates and they are trash. It pains me to watch our candidates have to demean themselves to a holes like Chuck Todd and the rest of the Village Idiots. I’m increasingly convinced that these things do nothing good for Democrats and, to the contrary, seem to be most useful to Republicans who usually find things they can use against the Democratic nominee in the general election.

    You remember Clinton’s answer to an abortion question, the rest of the country heard Goldman Sachs speeches and Corporate Corrupt Hillary. Our candidates could have a great discussion of climate change and their respective policy proposals to address. The great mass of Americans is going to hear “They’re coming for our pickup trucks!”

  113. 113
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @debbie: He was her press aide. That was his first job in DC and how he was able to crack into politics.

  114. 114
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ohio Mom: These are the same people that freak out if you simply state that a republic is a specific type of democracy. Apparently their feelings are easily offended by your facts.

  115. 115
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @different-church-lady: I had a far busier and longer day than I expected, but I had planned to deal with Erickson’s idiocy about the Confederacy not winning the peace. The Confederacy absolutely won the peace.

  116. 116
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I have sent you the image. You’re welcome!

  117. 117

    @James E Powell:

    Did it have any affect on any outcomes? I don’t say this to be a dick, but these debates are not debates and they are trash.

    Conventional data-pundit wisdom is that general election debates don’t matter because they aren’t close enough to the election (i.e. the bounces fade).

    Primary debates, on the other hand, are thought to be very important to primary outcomes. For recent examples, see 2008 and 2016.

    As for Hillary’s abortion answer, it was one of the Trump debates, but I remember being gobsmacked because I’d never heard somebody speak so effectively about not just the “right to choose”, but the right to abort. Truly not something I’ll soon forget.

  118. 118
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Bono.

  119. 119
    hueyplong says:

    I have always been confused as to why being glad the United States prevailed in an 1860s war is un-American.

    If there’s one thing worse than seeing Newt angry on TV, it’s seeing him happy on TV. So we have that.

  120. 120
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I’m deleting your double tap on this. The second one is stuck in moderation, just like this one I fished out a few minutes ago.

  121. 121
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @hueyplong: As I’ve written here several times before, and I’m sure I’ll do so again, the Union won the war on the battlefield, but lost the post war peace to the Confederacy.

  122. 122
    Ruckus says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    but I just can’t accept wearing flip-flops in public.

    What?
    You are dead to me now. No flip flops? How can a person live without flip flops?

  123. 123
    Adam L Silverman says:

    She’s back!!!!

  124. 124

    @Adam L Silverman: I accidentally tapped moderate (who decided to put it right above edit and have no confirmation dialogue?), and then I told it to delete the moderated one; I guess the deletion didn’t take.

  125. 125
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Trying to remember where Charlie Pierce found this self-description by Newton Leroy, something about some notes he had left out on his desk during an interview, or a draft of a memo that leaked somehow?

    N. Leroy Gingrich, Definer of Civilization’s Rules and Leader (Perhaps) of The Civilizing Forces,

  126. 126
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Sure, sure.

  127. 127
    cliosfanboy says:

    @sigaba: from a small program with a dissertation that would not pass muster at most schools.

  128. 128
    Mary G says:

    FFS:

    Your DOJ just filed a brief with the Supreme Court saying it’s fine for employers to have dress codes prohibiting women from wearing pants. https://t.co/Wq6yXDaPD2— Josh Block (@JoshABlock) August 17, 2019

    If Twitler manages to get reelected, they’ll be dunking us in ponds to see if we’re witches by 2021.

  129. 129
    hueyplong says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I more than agree about the South winning the peace.

    But that’s not enough for them. They’re bent if you note the USA won the battlefield part. Gotta let me have my small victories.

  130. 130
    Gin & Tonic says:

    I’m going to use the open thread to whine about what Bruce Schneier calls “security theater.” My wife flew off to Europe and forgot to notify the bank (actually a smallish credit union) where we have our debit cards that she’d be traveling. From bitter prior experience, they are quick to deny transactions they don’t like. So she dropped me a note to call them. I did. After a lot of back-and-forth with some centralized “cardmember services” and then shunting back to actual local staff, we kept getting stuck on the fact that they would not enter the travel authorization for the countries she’d be visiting based on my say-so. This is a joint checking account; in addition, we each have full power of attorney for the other, on paper, notarized. They will only allow this if *she* calls them. I said she’s not in a position to do so, They said sorry, that’s policy. I said, so she’s in Europe with no access to cash for three weeks. They said sorry, that’s policy. I asked why, they said it’s to prevent fraud. I inquired as to exactly how this would prevent fraud, since I could have my girlfriend take the phone, or I could speak in falsetto and say I’m her – they have no way of verifying that the voice on the phone is actually hers. They were confused, and said sorry, that’s policy, and suggested that my wife try using the card, and when the transaction was denied, they’d send a text message to her cell, which she could respond to. I explained that her overseas cell number is not her US cell number that they have on file, and that she is often out of cell range anyway, so this wasn’t a solution.

    So I asked to speak with the last person’s manager, saying I wanted to carefully explain to him/her why, after 20 years of doing a lot of business with that credit union, I’d be removing all my accounts and never doing any business with them again. I was placed “on a brief hold,” and soon the same rep came back and said he’d spoken with his manager, and they would be making a “one-time exception” to their policy and allowing the use of the card in the countries in question. Funny how flexible their nonsensical policy can be.

    This “we will only take verbal instructions over the phone from a person who can plausibly pretend to be the actual cardholder, which we have no means of actually verifying” is among the stupider security policies I’ve come across.

    End whine. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

  131. 131
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @cliosfanboy: And in a history program at a university that was fully captured at the time by the Dunning School of History.

  132. 132
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @hueyplong: I was not trying to deny you a victory.

    You are definitely a winner. Please add sprinkles to your ice cream because sprinkles are for winners!

  133. 133
    cliosfanboy says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I forget it was Tulane, I was thinking of the small Georgia school where he taught. But damn, it’s a weak dissertation. Mine was no award winner but it was good enough to turn into a book with a decent academic press. Newts is just sad.

  134. 134
  135. 135
    danielx says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I used to kind of believe the hipster douchebag line “judge the art, not the artist”. Then I used it when talking with a female friend who responded “I got two words for you: Roman Polanski.” Well….yeah.

    Don’t like Sarandon no more.

  136. 136
    Duane says:

    @zhena gogolia: There are people who wish I’d apologize for my existence, but that still might not be enough.

  137. 137
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @cliosfanboy: Kennesaw State. They denied him tenure because his publications were all polemics, not scholarship. That’s how bad a historian Gingrich is, he got denied tenure at what was, at the time in the mid to late 1970s, a glorified community college.

  138. 138
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Is Newt Gingrich Nuts?
    The most vivid image of Newt’s Messiah complex came out of the GOPAC scandal. For those too young to remember, Gingrich gained control of this murky non-profit in 1986 and turned it into a promotional vehicle-cum-political slush fund. It was an earlier incarnation of Newt Inc. GOPAC ran into trouble raising tax-deductible money to fund a nominally academic course called “Renewing American Civilization,” which Gingrich taught at the School of Business Administration at Kennesaw State College, in Kennesaw, Georgia. The House Ethics Committee investigated and criticized Gingrich for, more or less, lack of discipline, acting on impulse, and lack of judgment. He was fined $300,000 for lying to Congress about various matters. In its final report, the Ethics Committee appended internal GOPAC documents, including some of Newt’s handwritten notes from the period leading up to his big 1994 victory.
    Gingrich—Primary Mission
    —Advocate of civilization
    —definer of civilization
    —Teacher of the rules of civilization
    —arouser of those who form civilization
    —Organizer of the pro-civilization activists
    —leader (possibly) of the civilizing forces
    .

    arouser

  139. 139
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @danielx: Nevertheless, Chinatown is a good movie.

  140. 140
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Commenter’s choice.

  141. 141
    cmorenc says:

    Said Erik son of Erik:

    The Times essentially offers a Neo-Confederate view that the South really won the Civil War and minimizes or undermines the cost white people paid to free slaves. It is unfortunate and corrupts the whole project.

    So, Erik, in the interest of fairness and balance, were the authors supposed to express more empathy for southerners who lost their capital investment in owning human slaves, and their business model of saving overall costs by using forced slave labor in lieu of hired employees, along with de jure and de facto legal support to harshly, physically punish and brutalize any slaves who seemed lazy, disobedient, or who tried to escape? Somehow, I very much you were referring there to the cost and sacrifice by the Union and its soldiers needed to defeat the south and free the slaves.

  142. 142
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @danielx: She’s an asshat.

  143. 143
    Jay says:

    The Free Press has identified Master Cpl. Patrik Mathews, 26, as the person behind the Winnipeg recruitment drive for the terrorist paramilitary organization The Base. Mathews is an explosives expert. /1 https://t.co/Bw4emglkrY— Yellow Vests Canada Exposed 🏴 (@VestsCanada) August 19, 2019

  144. 144
    NotMax says:

    @Jay

    Another example of why the military needs to have each person spend an equal number of weeks as in boot camp in an “unboot camp” before mustering out. Sort of like a halfway house before returning to civilian life.

  145. 145
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @danielx: Same basic reason I wont read any sci-fi or fantasy author who was part of the Sad/Angry Puppies movement.

    Most of those guys were fairly obviously crypto-Christian fascists anyway, but after the tried to blow up fandom I was just entirely done with them.

  146. 146
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    but I just can’t accept wearing flip-flops in public

    Avoid Aussie YouTube. And they call them ‘thongs’. :)

  147. 147
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Not Kennesaw State. West Georgia.

    (ETA: FYAC)

  148. 148
    hells littlest angel says:

    Gingrich: “Several hundred thousand white Americans died in the Civil War in order to free the slaves.”

    Yeah, they died because they were killed by hundreds of thousands of other white Americans who were fighting to keep people enslaved.

  149. 149
    Mary G says:

    @Jay: @Adam L Silverman: Dosen’t al-Qaeda also translate to the base?

  150. 150
    NotMax says:

    @Steve in the ATL

    You would be disgruntled when in Hawaii, then.

  151. 151
    Chacal Charles Calthrop says:

    @feathers: thank you! Just downloaded it

  152. 152
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: even worse!

  153. 153
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jay: I’m guessing that may be a problem.

  154. 154
    Amir Khalid says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:
    I have a feeling Adam means the guy from U2.

  155. 155
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I sit corrected.

  156. 156
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    The Board of Regents barred him from teaching his AmCiv course at Kennesaw (this was 1995, long after he had abandoned academia for the heady halls of Congress). His “teaching” career was at WG. I know a number of faculty emeriti there, and they all regret very much having his name associated with their institution, even from 40-odd years ago.

  157. 157
    Jeffro says:

    @cmorenc: The authors were supposed to only focus on white folks’ sacrifices (of some kind, or any kind), not black folks’ actual enslaved labor, abuse, torture, family separations, and death…oh and another couple hundred years of discrimination, terror, abuse, torture, and death…DUH.

    Erickson and people like him are, I think, possibly worse than the out-and-out racists. It’s like you have to spend extra time with them listening to their stupid shit, then trying to understand how they could possibly think that stupid shit, and then maybe even trying to reason them out of their stupid shit, and then they STILL DON’T GET IT.

  158. 158
    NotMax says:

    The General on TCM at the moment. Probably my favorite silent film, even taking into account the hero is a Confederate.

  159. 159
    Jeffro says:

    @hells littlest angel:

    Gingrich: “Several hundred thousand white Americans died in the Civil War in order to free the slaves.”

    Yeah, they died because they were killed by hundreds of thousands of other white Americans who were fighting to keep people enslaved.

    Someone please ask Newt: “Wait…I thought several hundred thousand whites died trying to squash states’ rights? Or was it to protect states’ rights? And NOW you’re saying the Civil War was about SLAVERY? Newt…”

  160. 160
    Brachiator says:

    Stepped away to run some errands. Almost missed this thread. Looking forward to browsing the comments.

  161. 161
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @NotMax: Count Orlok would like a word. Is it dark in Hawaii yet?

  162. 162
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @hells littlest angel: You peasant! This Newtington Leroyish Gingrichitude III you’re talking about!

    Oh wait. Fuck him.

  163. 163
    NotMax says:

    @mrmoshpotato

    Am generally more of a Yesferatu king of guy.

    :)

  164. 164
    Mike E says:

    @cmorenc: I’m sure Erik wants people to realize that the vagrancy “papers please” laws used to re-enslave freed blacks was for their own good…at least that’s how I read that shithead, anyway

  165. 165
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mary G: It does indeed.

  166. 166
    Ruckus says:

    @Jeffro:

    STILL DON’T GET IT

    They aren’t listening to believe you, they are listening to see what/how they can use your words against you. Their minds are closed, locked covered in cement and dumped in the ocean. You’d have to dive to the bottom, break open the cement, pick the lock and smash open their brains to get even one word to sink in.
    They are a totally lost cause, the only way is to hope they die sooner than later so that their diseased mind doesn’t infect anyone else.
    Also, Eric is a racist. He’s a dumb man who thinks he’s smart. He’s still a fucking racist.

  167. 167
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @NotMax: That’s Yessferatu, dammit! Can’t even get the name of Murnau’s lost, unknown, unproduced classic right! Argh!

    And ‘king’? Pfft!

  168. 168
    Yarrow says:

    @Gin & Tonic: That’s really frustrating. Glad it got sorted in the end. Did you check to see if you can put some sort of travel alert on the account via the website? Might be easier than trying to talk to someone if it happens again.

  169. 169
    Jeffro says:

    @Ruckus: That’s a good metaphor for it…”concrete-encased-head-under-the-sea-syndrome”.

    I tend to score high on ‘openness to new info/being wrong’. Erickson must be not only in the triple-digit negatives, but clearly has built up his defenses against ever having to face that fact of life. Ah well.

  170. 170
    Jay says:

    Cyanide from a steel plant trickled into Lake Michigan for days before the public was notified https://t.co/R9AKlmsI78— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) August 19, 2019

  171. 171
    debbie says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    So he’s who made her into the nutjob she is!

  172. 172
    NotMax says:

    @mrmoshpotato

    “So, F. W., what’s the production schedule look like?”

    “Murnau, less later.”

  173. 173
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @Jay: Selfish Indianians(?), not sharing their cyanide-laced water with us.

  174. 174
    Jay says:

    @NotMax:

    Given that it has been known for well over a decade that the Nazis have entered the military to have access to weapons, explosives and training, and have entered the LEO community to “shift relations”,

    both the Military and LEO groups need to actually look for and remove these guys from the ranks, and not just leave it up to anti-facist activists to find and expose these dirtbags.

    The last time the Canadian Armed Forces ignored this issue, it had metatized so badly that an entire Airborne Regiment was disbanded and hundreds were kicked out of the Service.

  175. 175
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @NotMax: Hehehehehe well done.

  176. 176
    Ruckus says:

    @Jeffro:
    Erickson and his ilk are fully, 1000% convinced that the only reason they are on this earth is to lord their shit over others. They were born at a time when lots of humans are convinced that none of the religious writings they supposedly believe in – really mean what the writings say, that they are the ideal humans and any difference from them whatsoever is beneath them. They believe in pecking order. They do not believe in equality in any way, shape or form. They are fucking racists and very likely misogynists.

  177. 177
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: My mistake. I remember the Kennesaw State affiliation and figured that was where he was denied tenure, then was able to worm his way back in once in Congress.

  178. 178
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @debbie: Nope, she was already a whackaloon. Just a meeting of the so called minds.

  179. 179
    Tehanu says:

    @Jay:

    … to demand white America be given more credit for abolishing slavery 150 years ago …

    As somebody pointed out on another thread (either here or LGM, not sure which), we’re the only country where white people fought a bloody civil war against each other* to abolish slavery. Other countries, including Brazil which also had a slave economy, just passed a law and that was it.

    * Haiti, well, that was bloody, but it was slaves against owners — not abolitionists against owners.

  180. 180
    JAFD says:

    @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Good morning, Comrade !

    If I had the chance to talk to Sen Klobuchar, _I’d_ tell her this:
    (I’ve commented on this before, apologies if you’ve heard it…)

    First, that I think every Democratic candidate should have someone on their staff who has experience being _poor_, who’s needed food stamps to survive; and I can tell that you don’t, because:

    Second, you can’t use food stamps in a fast food ‘restaurant’, but can go to grocery and get a roll and an eighth-pound of baloney, or a container of potato salad, or …, and fight off hunger pangs.

    Third, therefore, people who’ve had experience being poor always have some plastic eating utensils in their briefcase or purse.

    Fourth, if you had someone with ‘personal experience of poverty’ on your staff, you wouldn’t have had to eat with a comb.

    (It’s morning here in New Jersey, where it’s been so bleeping hot and humid that some of us just got home and took a nap, and now’ve had dinner….)

  181. 181
    Jiminy's Cricket says:

    @Jay: Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least they have an ethos…

  182. 182
    JGabriel says:

    @Baud:

    Will it really be a debate with no one taking the anti-Earth side?

    I’m sure CNN’s ‘moderators’ will enthusiastically fill that role without any additional help from Democratics.

  183. 183
    JGabriel says:

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    So sad heads are sploding. The essays I’ve read so far are thought provoking …

    Which explains why conservatives are going nuts. Provoking though enrages them.

  184. 184
    J R in WV says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Which he got from Tulane during the late 60s/early 70s for writing a polemical apologia of the Belgian colonization and occupation of the Congo.

    So weren’t those the African slaves who weren’t removed from Africa, but were still essentially owned and operated by the King of Belgium? Leaving the Congo is such a mess that now it is eaten up with Ebola and the worst economy in the world? Constant war conducted by warlords in the jungle? Enslaved like the native American peoples of the Spanish colonizers of South America?

    That European colony? The Belgian Congo?

  185. 185
    J R in WV says:

    @Mary G:

    Your DOJ just filed a brief with the Supreme Court saying it’s fine for employers to have dress codes prohibiting women from wearing pants.

    I just… splutter, fizz, gasp. Speechless!!! “What a bunch of marroons.”

    Who can say something like out loud without realizing what they’re saying!??

  186. 186
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @JAFD:

    Fourth, if you had someone with ‘personal experience of poverty’ on your staff, you wouldn’t have had to eat with a comb.

    OK, super late back to this party. Agree wholeheartedly about the food stamps bullshit, and the necessity of having someone on staff with direct personal experience of the indignities and uncertainties of poverty. HOWEVER. I have personal experience of poverty, and yet I have more than once found myself without plastic implements in my purse (although I always have them in my car). I have never eaten anything with a comb, but I have eaten:

    – yogurt with a lollipop still in its plastic wrapper.
    – soup with a plastic straw with the end slit open to form a sort of scoop for the chunky bits
    – Chinese food from the box with actual sticks collected from a shrub
    – salad with a pair of plastic serving tongs. Honestly, I wish I’d thought of the comb – would have been more efficient and less messy.

    Do I win a prize, or am I a monster?

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