Thursday Morning Open Thread: Hangovers

(Mike Luckovich via

287 replies
  1. 1
    Baud says:

    Pelosi basically told Democrats to use the recess to get a feel if their constituents support impeachment, so now’s the time to make yourself heard on that. It’s actually you who can DO SOMETHING now.

    — DSA DNC Caucus (@agraybee) July 24, 2019

    Since I almost never get to agree with DSA, let me just say this is good advice.

  2. 2
    satby says:

    Good morning all!

  3. 3
    Derelict says:

    Yeah, gotta send everyone back to their districts to get a feel for whether or not to impeach or even vigorously investigate the most corrupt, criminal, anti-American president in history. I mean, sure, he’s admitted he’s committed crimes. But, you know, impeachment doesn’t really poll well at the moment. And besides–we have all these symbolic bills we need to pass so that Mitch McConnell can make sure they never see the light of day.

    I’d give significant body parts for a Democratic leadership that fights the Republicans with as much strength and vigor as it fights other Democrats. IMPEACH THE MOTHEFUCKER and show the voters you’re willing to fight for something.

  4. 4
    Baud says:

    Good morning.

  5. 5
    Baud says:


    No, that’s not how we operate. I invite you to give up and run away now.

  6. 6
    satby says:

    @Baud: you mean “almost never”?

  7. 7
    Baud says:



  8. 8
    satby says:

    @Derelict: in a country where between 27-42% of the population supports that motherfucker, you have to time your battles and build a consensus. Which is not something people ranting on the internet have to worry about.

  9. 9
    Chyron HR says:


    Is that the actual DSA? I never see them tweeting things like “Down with shitlibs” or “Better nazi than Nancy” so I assumed it was a parody account.

  10. 10
    Baud says:

    @Chyron HR:

    I assumed but don’t know.

  11. 11
    Baud says:


    Whatever happened to GOTV to build our party? We’re back to focusing on loud people on the Internet. That’s what failed us in 2016.

  12. 12
    Scotian says:

    Good morning all. You still haven’t lost me yet, although by the end of the hearings yesterday my body started to crash out which is why I missed all the post hearings discussions to my disappointment.

  13. 13
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Chyron HR: Nope, @agraybee is using the ‘DSA/DNC Caucus’ ironically — like Cole’s ‘Cake or Death’. Twitter lets people change their ‘titles’ but not their ‘handles’.

  14. 14
    Baud says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    Well, I guess my streak of not agreeing with DSA is intact.

  15. 15
    satby says:

    @Scotian: honestly, you didn’t miss much. TBC, endlessly, for days. Glad to see you today.

  16. 16
    debbie says:


    I wish they’d suggested that the reps lead with McConnell’s blocking election security. It’s more worrisome.

  17. 17
    satby says:

    @Baud: GOTV! Constant outrage causes exhaustion and is demoralizing for lot of people. Which the Republicans are happy to use to their advantage. Their people are getting spun up, so is the troll farm, and we need to stay focused.

  18. 18
    debbie says:


    You can get a good sense of it, and a couple laughs, from watching Stephen Colbert’s monologue last night.

  19. 19
    Baud says:


    I remember when the advice de jour was to stop focusing so much on Trump. I promise you, as soon as Dems start impeachment, people will move on to something else.

  20. 20
    Sab says:

    @Scotian: Good morning!

  21. 21
    satby says:

    @debbie: I wish Jane Mayer and Ronan Farrow would turn their investigative skills onto McConnell. There’s massive dirt there, I would bet on it. He’s a bigger traitor than the short fingered orange dope.

  22. 22
    Anya says:

    I think if the Republicans didn’t block the election security bills, nothing would’ve happened still because there is no way the inept and criminal Trump administration would’ve taken any action. Republicans have gamed the system and created an unfair advantage through these voters restriction tactics and now getting assist from Russia. The only thing that will make them act on election security is if another hostile foreign power starts interfering against them.

  23. 23
    debbie says:


    They could be. Mayer spends tons of time researching and writing, so she’s never very timely. By the way, she’ll be on Fresh Air today, talking about her Franken article.

  24. 24
    Derelict says:

    @satby: Maybe instead of thinking about the 27- to 43% that support Trump, we should consider the 60- to 75% who do not support him, or the 57% who have stated they will definitely NOT vote for him in 2020.

    They idea that we have to build some overwhelming consensus that polls in the 90-percent range is self-defeating.

  25. 25
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Help! I’ve fallen down a Paul Bronks twitter hole and I can’t get out!

    Goodness gracious great balls afire.

  26. 26
    Quinerly says:

    @Scotian: Good morning to you.

  27. 27
    Baud says:


    Here’s the thing. If people are micromanaging Pelosi over impeachment and going to get outraged because she doesn’t do everything as they would like, there’s no chance a unified Dem government after 2020 dealing with real policy is going to win them over. It’ll be firebaggers all over again.

  28. 28
    Chris Johnson says:

    @satby: Yup.

    Trump / Pence / McConnell / Epstein

    All of them with their own specialties, all of them dirty as can be.

  29. 29
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄 😄😄

  30. 30
    rikyrah says:

    Sending out positive thoughts for Little Imma, Scotian, and the rest of the BJ jackal family 🙏🙏🙏

  31. 31
    Baud says:


    Good morning.

  32. 32
    debbie says:


    I cannot keep up around here. Have I missed Immp news?

  33. 33
    rikyrah says:

    You ain’t never lied 😒😒

  34. 34
    rikyrah says:

    I thought today was his surgery .😪

  35. 35
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: Son is having surgery this AM

  36. 36
    rikyrah says:

    We have to make sure that those who would never vote for him:
    1. Get out to vote
    2. Are not Voter Suppressed out of their vote

  37. 37
  38. 38
    debbie says:

    @rikyrah: @OzarkHillbilly:

    Thanks to you both. He will be in my heart then. (No cracks about that vast barren wasteland!)

  39. 39
  40. 40
    Baud says:


    Haha. I like that woman who had an apologetic look on her face.

  41. 41
    germy says:

    NPR and the NY Times should merge and become just one mediocre thing promoting the arts in collaboration with Starbucks, which would actually be a decent contribution.
    — Sam Stephenson (@SamStephenson12) July 24, 2019

  42. 42
    Betty Cracker says:

    Speaking of Rep. Katie Hill:

    House leadership should appoint her Official Impeachment Status Explainer.

  43. 43
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    That’s exactly what Pelosi said at her press conference.

  44. 44
    Jinchi says:

    It’s actually you who can DO SOMETHING now.

    Honestly, this pitch from Pelosi really infuriates me. Stop asking the voters to do your job!

    Between gerrymandering, voter suppression, the electoral college, and the fact that we only get a vote once every four years, the system is designed with huge constraints on the public’s ability to check a corrupt president. 54% of us voted against the guy the first time around. We came out in a blue tsunami last election to give Pelosi a Democratic majority so that they could put an end to his corruption. She spent the first few months of her speakership insisting that we wait for Mueller’s report. She has spent her time since insisting idiotically that “He isn’t worth it” and publicly whipping Democrats in Congress against impeaching the president.

    Despite every lever of power being used against him, Mueller did his job. The investigators did their jobs. The rest of the establishment has decided to sit this one out. The Department of Justice declares him unindictable and the courts have been working overtime to protect public corruption. Pelosi and the Democrats clearly know that Trump committed crimes and acted with a foreign power to subvert our elections and that he continues to do it today. They need to get off their asses and do their job and quit trying to shift the responsibility to the voters.

  45. 45
    Breth says:

    This should brighten the morning:

    Trump delivers speech in front of fake presidential seal

  46. 46
    Baud says:


    They’re doing their jobs. They’re just not doing it in the way you like. And since voters don’t matter, they should just ignore you and other critics.

  47. 47
    rikyrah says:

    Zerlina Maxwell (@ZerlinaMaxwell) Tweeted:
    If you want impeachment you gotta make calls (202) 224-3121

  48. 48
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Over the line. Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules?

    30 seconds you’ll never get back, but the look on that little girls face will make you waste another 30 seconds, and another after that, and after that…

  49. 49
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    I was surprised by two things on Colbert last night:

    1. He went long and hard on Mueller as old, feeble and hard of hearing. Really hammered that point for a while.

    2. He made a joke about “Bobby Three Sticks” that made it clear that he and his writers had never heard the term before. I found that amazing.

  50. 50
    Baud says:


    It’s all downhill from here, little girl.

  51. 51
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud: True, but without the brevity and clarity.

  52. 52
    gene108 says:


    So glad you are still with us.

  53. 53
    Kay says:

    I think you have to actually go to the town hall meetings and events – they’ll pay attention if people come out. I’m off the hook since I have Latta (R) and he does telephone town hall meetings, except when he’s meeting with farmers to complain about food stamp recipients.

  54. 54
    NotMax says:

    Howdy. Time zone shifting sucks burro balls. Been intermittently discombobulated for two days now.

  55. 55
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kay: As far as I can tell, Jason Smith hasn’t held a town hall in years. I need to check again now with the upcoming recess, but I’m pretty sure there will be nothing there..

  56. 56
  57. 57
    gene108 says:


    I live in a normally Republican district. We elected a Dem in 2018.

    There are plenty of other Dems in tough districts to hold onto, without whom we would not control the House.

    Reps in these districts need reassurance, they can aggressively move against Trump and still have the same job come January 2021.

  58. 58
    Kay says:


    become just one mediocre thing promoting the arts in collaboration with Starbucks,

    Funny. They do some good work, though. They do those multi-part series on things. I read the whole series on slave labor on fishing boats, which was good.

    They just have terrible political coverage. They don’t even really “cover” the D primary. There’s no day to day ordinary coverage of the D candidates. It’s like “Joe Biden’s son- scandal” or “Buttiteig police shooting”. They turn that over to a “compare the D candidates on issues” graphic with blurbs. I have to read the Washington Post to find ordinary workaday coverage of these people who are running for office. It’s like it’s beneath them. Not that they take advice from me, but I would just accept the criticism that they do terrible political reporting and fix that, rather than allow the denial of huge problems in that one area to bring the rest down.

  59. 59
    Jinchi says:


    They’re doing their jobs.

    Please tell me what job they’re doing. Pelosi is clearly hoping to kick the can down the road past the next election. She wants Trump gone in the same sense that she wants any Republican president gone, but she does not want to impeach the president.

    One Democrat after another, yesterday, insisted that “No one is above the law”, but they are making it pretty clear that he is. If they mean what they say and they believe he committed crimes, they have the only lever against him.

  60. 60
    Baud says:


    Investigations, subpoenas, court enforcement. Maybe impeachment down the road, but I have a feeling the impeachment activists will make that untenable with poor strategy.

    Trump is going to get away with it because the Senate won’t convict. Internalize that because there’s no way around it. The voters caused this problem and they are the only ones who can fix it.

  61. 61
  62. 62
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    I unsubscribed from David Leonhardt this morning. Sounds as if I’ll have to unsubscribe from Colbert too.

    He’s like all of them — he’s benefited from Trump, so he wants to keep it going.

  63. 63
    Butter emails!!! says:

    Once more…impeaching Trump won’t get rid of him and less than 50 percent of her caucus is in favor of impeaching him.

  64. 64
    JMG says:

    The idea that lengthy public impeachment hearings won’t influence said public (with which Trump is already less than popular) escapes me. I do note that yesterday some unnamed aide (aren’t they always) said that the 31 Dems elected from districts Trump carried will never vote for impeachment. It’d be easy enough to compile a list of said Dems and have activists make their Augusts kind of unpleasant. Did it never occur to these geniuses that they got elected last November because a number of voters changed their minds? Too many Democrats believe that only their losses have meaning, while victories are just flukes.

  65. 65
    Chyron HR says:


    But a Republican-funded Russian propaganda outlet The Young Turks said that Impeachment would immediately fix everything, and if it doesn’t it just proves that Democrats are double-extra bad.

  66. 66
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Give it up.

  67. 67
    satby says:

    @Jinchi: Their job is to represent their constituents interests. Who aren’t as monolithic on the need for impeachment as we are. They’re doing their jobs.
    @Derelict: 90%?!? Nice straw man you built there. How bout you run for office and show us all how it’s done.

  68. 68
    Kay says:


    The last time I went personally I had to make an appointment with Latta’s staffer (I went to a local office). He was late and then (I think) embarrassed that he was late so rather than just apologize he was rude and acted like it was my fault. A jerk. A young man. I took A LOT of (locally made) lollipops from the basket on the way out, more than my share, so I showed him. It was about health care- I don’t recall specifically. Probably “don’t take it away from people”. That health care push succeeded, I think. I think that was a successful uprising.

  69. 69
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    “sorry I’m late for work, I got fucked up by that cow again”

    Alternative: “I said, NO PEEING IN THE ALLEY, DAMMIT!!!”

  70. 70
    satby says:

    @Chyron HR: like I said, the trolls would be out. To muddy up both sides of the argument and sow discord.

  71. 71
    Butter emails!!! says:


    I’m not sure why everyone thinks that impeachment proceedings would move the needle very much. This isn’t the Nixon era. Yesterday was a preview of what impeachment proceedings would look like. How much do you think Democrats asking serious questions while Republicans regurgitate last night’s Hannity and the media live blogs it as a Trump victory is going to increase the support for Trump’s removal.

  72. 72
    satby says:

    @rikyrah: what rikyrah said!
    Sending love to all our jackals and kids with health issues today.

  73. 73
    satby says:

    @NotMax: you should get adjusted right about the time you’re ready to go home. Hope mom is well.

  74. 74
    Baud says:


    I hear you. My one regret during Obama was not speaking up enough, however. But I’m heading out shortly, so I’ll leave it to others to hold down the fort.

  75. 75
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kay: I don’t dare to meet Jason Smith face to face, the urge to slap that self satisfied IGMFY smirk off his face might be overpowering.

  76. 76
    Immanentize says:

    Just checking in from the waiting room –. Uhhh, checks sign, “Family Assistance Center”. Hospitals ain’t what they used to be. They wheeled the Immp in to surgery about 7:30. A nice woman working here at the Family Assistance Center just told me the surgery started at 8:12. Four plus hours and I will hear from the surgeon.

    They gave the Immp a relaxing med before they took him away. He is a funny intoxicated person. I managed a picture of him in his little blue hair cap. He will thank me later….

  77. 77
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Instead of getting into useless pissing matches, I’m sticking with posting Bronks today. Speaking of which: The Great Escape (1963), or “Beagles just want to be free”.

  78. 78
    Another Scott says:

    In contrast to the seemingly pre-written stories about how Mueller Day was a disaster for Democrats and a Great Victory for the God-Emperor, Lindsey McPherson at RollCall has a story about what actually happened yesterday.

    Speaker Nancy Pelosi and three Democratic chairs of committees investigating Donald Trump’s alleged misconduct on Wednesday cracked the door to eventually launching impeachment proceedings against the president, using rhetoric that sounded like that is where their investigations are headed.

    “When we go down this path, we want it to be unifying for our country, not divided. And that’s why we want it to be the strongest possible case,” Pelosi told reporters Wednesday evening after former special counsel Robert S. Mueller III testified before the House Judiciary and Intelligence committees about his report on Russian interference in the 2016 elections.

    “President Lincoln said public sentiment is everything,” the California Democrat continued. “Well, in order for the public to have the sentiment, the public has to know. So hopefully, we’ll be messengers of the truth to the public. We think today was really a milestone in making that sentiment.”

    Pelosi said the two hearings with Mueller demonstrated that obstruction of justice allegations against Trump would be indictable offenses if committed by anyone but a sitting president. She noted that Trump could still be indicted for the offenses after he leaves office, as Mueller stated in his testimony Wednesday.

    House Democrats plan to go a step further than Mueller did in his report by digging into Trump’s finances, Pelosi said.

    “The Mueller investigation could not get into the president’s personal and business connections. And one of those connections could be to the Russians, and that’s what we want to find out,” she said.

    ‘Cone of silence’

    Pelosi continued to decline to say if Democrats were headed toward launching impeachment proceedings, but the rhetoric she used Wednesday provided more indications than ever before that the House may eventually launch an impeachment inquiry.

    “We want to have the strongest possible case to make a decision as to what path we will go down, and that just is not endless in terms of time, or endless in terms of the information that we want,” the speaker said. “But if it comes to a point where the cone of silence and the obstruction of justice and the cover-up in the White House prevents us from getting that information, that will not prevent us from going forward. In fact, it’s even more grounds to go forward.”

    Pelosi, however, feels that despite the Trump administration’s efforts to stonewall the congressional investigations, Democrats have been having success in court as they seek to enforce their subpoenas for information and testimony that could shed further light on Trump’s alleged obstruction and perhaps undisclosed connections to Russia.

    “My position has always been [that] whatever decision we made in that regard would have to be done with our strongest possible hand,” Pelosi said of impeachment. “And we still have some outstanding matters in the courts. It’s about the Congress, the Constitution and the courts. And we are fighting the president in the courts.”

    Democrats’ next steps in court, which they plan to take this week, will to be seek access to the grand jury information redacted in Mueller’s report and to enforce their subpoena for testimony and documentation from former White House counsel Don McGahn, a key witness in Volume II of Mueller’s report, outlining potential instances of Trump obstructing justice, according to Judiciary Chairman Jerrold Nadler, who spoke at the press conference with Pelosi.

    “We have several considerations about what information is there,” Pelosi said. “And this isn’t endless. This isn’t endless. Understand that. But we have five cases in the courts. We have some that are going forward that Chairman Nadler just mentioned.”

    In another sign that Pelosi is softening her stance on impeachment, she pushed back on a reporter who tried to say she has long questioned the wisdom of the House moving forward with impeachment if the Senate won’t convict.

    “I have never long said that,” she said. “If we have a case for impeachment, that’s the place we will have to go. The fact that why I’d like it to be a strong case …. based on the facts, the facts and the law. That’s what matters. No politics, not partisanship, just patriotism.”

    In one of her more telling comments regarding impeachment, Pelosi said, “The stronger our case is, the worse the Senate will look for letting the president off the hook.”

    House Intelligence Chairman Adam B. Schiff backed Pelosi up, saying that while the Senate is technically the jury in terms of removing the president from office after a House impeachment, he is more concerned about another jury.

    “I’m most concerned about the jury that is the American people. And before we embark on a course as significant to the country as the impeachment of a president, I want to make sure that we can make that case to the jury of the American people,” Schiff said.

    Influencing public sentiment is why Democrats wanted Mueller to testify. They felt many people hadn’t read his report and wanted to shed light on its contents.

    “I’m begging, I’m begging the American people to pay attention to what is going on,” House Oversight and Reform Chairman Elijah E. Cummings said at the presser. “Because if you want to have a democracy intact for your children and your children’s children and generations yet unborn, we have got to guard this moment. This is our watch.”

    Watergate, MLK invoked

    Pelosi, while acknowledging the importance of public sentiment, seemed to point to the evidence that Democrats are still gathering as to why they are still investigating and not impeaching.

    “In Watergate, it was when they got the information in the tapes that broke the case,” she said “It wasn’t just about changing public opinion. That helps, changing public opinion. But it’s not about me. It’s about our caucus. It’s about our country.”

    The three chairmen, like Pelosi, used terms that indicated their investigations are heading toward impeachment.

    Cummings quoted Martin Luther King Jr. saying, “There comes a point when silence becomes betrayal.”

    “And we refuse to betray generations yet unborn and the American people. We’re not going to betray them. … We’re just accumulating information and doing the best we can,” the Maryland Democrat said.

    Nadler said Trump has engaged in “repeated crimes” to cover up his campaign’s willingness to accept the help of a foreign power to influence the 2016 election.

    “This cannot go on,” the New York Democrat said. “It’s up to Congress to safeguard the Constitution. And we will do it.”

    Pelosi, Nadler, Schiff and Cummings spoke to the press after a last-minute Democratic Caucus meeting to discuss the same topics. In the meeting, Pelosi reportedly told her caucus members that they should come out for an impeachment inquiry if they felt they needed to.

    Asked to confirm that, Pelosi said her members could do whatever they want.

    “They know that,” she said. “That’s never been an issue. People do whatever they do to represent their districts.”

    They know what they’re doing.

    Falling into the trap that “OMG!! Mueller is OLD and didn’t say that Donnie and Barr should be sent to Gitmo so we’re DOOOOMMMEED!!!11” is just what the GOP and their enablers want. Eyes on the prize.


  79. 79
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Immanentize: Even keels.

  80. 80
    Steeplejack (phone) says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    It was a rare lapse—I hope rare.

    I talked with a friend last night who watched the hearings, and she had the same impression of Muller as sort of old and out of it. I had a doctor’s appointment and was out most of the day, so all I saw were short clips, and I thought he did okay. He does have a bit of “old man voice,” and someone said he might have been having trouble hearing in the acoustics of the morning session. But I thought his testimony was devastating.

    I wonder if this will be similar to Barr’s pre-neutering of the Mueller report at its release. Everybody was like “Game over, man!,” but then after they actually got a look at the report the situation was entirely different. I wonder if this will look different after the initial “optics” have faded.

  81. 81
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Another Scott: What a sellout.//

  82. 82
    MomSense says:


    Shoot, I thought it was Friday. C’mon Immp – rooting for you!! Sending good thoughts to Imm, Immp, Eric, Emma, and Scotian.

  83. 83
    Scotian says:

    Debbie: Thanks for the excerpt link.

    General: You know it gets really tedious hearing more about optics over actual substance being passed off as political analysis. The truly infuriating aspect though is the uneven standard it is applied to the Dems and center left versus the GOP and their centrists (all one handful of them left).

    After all, the supposed reason for the emails “scandal” being worthy of beating to death was how it looked and could look to others as a security vulnerability. And of course where POTUS is concerned security issues can never be treated lightly.

    And then there’s Trump…(sung to the music that went with this line from the All In the Family spinoff Maude “and then there’s Maude!”).

    This is your media’s element, and when the GOP control the POTUS, Senate, increasingly the federal judiciary and the “free” press, there is little the Dems can do without major public support. So I am sympathetic to the argument Pelosi is using, because from what I see up here it is going to take a major sustained public uprising (and by this I mean non-violent for anyone needing it spelled out) to give them enough leverage, especially having to do so facing all those headwinds, the media one most of all.

    I would suggest that the media needs to be treated by Dems the way the GOP did back in the 90s as the enemy and list over and over again the double standards being applied whenever their tender fee-fees feel abused for it. This though needs to be well organized and run to help.

    You folks are way deep in it at this point, and your side needs to show more spine, as I’ve noted before American voters seem to be willing, nay even prefer strong but wrong to right but weak/indecisive. This is one way to fight against it, not a silver bullet solution but then how many such truly exist as an effective approach?

  84. 84

    @Immanentize: We are all thinking about you and Immp.

  85. 85
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    The story on Twitter is very different, as far as I can tell. When you sound-bite it, it’s much more powerful.

    I watched a lot of it. Mueller was in a very difficult position, and my heart went out to him. The story to me is that Republican members of the House of Representatives one after another sat there and accused a bona fide American hero to his face of being “un-American” and perpetrating a “hoax,” and having a staff full of people who “hated the President.” It was sad and disgusting, and I don’t know why that isn’t the big story today.

  86. 86
    zhena gogolia says:


    I’ll be thinking of you (and Scotian and Eric) today.

  87. 87
    MomSense says:


    The waiting is tough. We are all anxiously waiting with you.

  88. 88
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    ‘Gay footballer’ deletes Twitter account

    Having previously declared his intention to hold a press conference on Wednesday where he would reveal his identity after a series of tweets that had detailed his experiences, the user @FootballerGay posted two messages on Tuesday evening before deleting the account which had amassed more than 50,000 followers.

    “I thought I was stronger. I was wrong,” read the first, quickly followed by a more detailed explanation before the account was deleted.

    “Call me all the names under the sun, belittle me and ridicule me, a lot will, and I can’t change that, but I’m not strong enough to do this. Just remember that I’ve got feelings, without coming out I can’t convince anybody otherwise, but this isn’t a hoax. I wouldn’t do that.”

    It’s just sad.

  89. 89
    kd bart says:

    @Baud: It’s not. It’s an individual who frequently changes their handle to mock the seriously online. Believe me, they are not a fan of the DSA.

  90. 90
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    ‘Justice prevailed’: rapper Meek Mill’s conviction overturned after 11 years

    A Pennsylvania appeals court has overturned the rapper Meek Mill’s conviction in a drug and gun case that has kept the rapper on probation for a decade and made him a celebrity crusader for criminal justice reform.

    The unanimous three-judge panel said new evidence undermining the credibility of the officer who testified against the rapper at his trial made an acquittal likely were the case to be retried.

  91. 91
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    Sending healing thoughts to the kid.

  92. 92
    chris says:

    Mumble, richest country in the history of the world, mumble…

    Approximately 15,600 people died between 2014 and 2017 as a result of their states refusing to expand Medicaid coverage under the Affordable Care Act, according to a new working paper by the National Bureau of Economic Research.— Mother Jones (@MotherJones) 25 July 2019

  93. 93
    MomSense says:


    I was complaining about the media obsession with optics over substance and context last night – well early this morning during my trumpsomnia. It’s a little rich that the media didn’t like the optics of an aging war hero patriot who spent two years of his life trying to investigate an attack on our country that was welcomed by our president. Have they seen our president? He’s grotesque and idiotic. He incites violence and praises racists and dictators. He’s a daily affront to Democracy and aesthetics FFS. Seriously his optics are some of the ugliest ever.

  94. 94
    rikyrah says:


    Do the farmers realize that the food stamp recipients keep them paid?

  95. 95
    MomSense says:

    Speaking of fucking optics, Gym Jordan letting adults shower and worse with the students on the team he coached is fucking disgusting. Why aren’t those optics upsetting to the fucking villagers who are so obsessed with social order and civility?

  96. 96
    Amir Khalid says:

    Entirely appropriate. He’s been the phoniest POTUS ever, hasn’t he?

  97. 97
    Chyron HR says:

    Now that I think about it, isn’t Bernie’s position on impeachment, “Democrats must stop investigating Trump and focus on the issues real white Americans care about instead”. Are the Sunshine Justice Squad seriously complaining that Pelosi isn’t getting out in front of their own movement’s leader on this issue?

  98. 98
  99. 99
    MomSense says:


    They’re probably as hopelessly lost to reality as the lobstermen up here. The trade relationships they’ve built with China are irreparably destroyed. Their business future is bleak and those motherfuckers still support the mandarin menace.

    Racism is a helluva drug.

  100. 100
    Aleta says:

    @Immanentize: love and light going out to Immp and you

  101. 101
    Haroldo says:


    Welcome back!

  102. 102
    plato says:

    @Breth: Every day embarrassment. #maga

  103. 103
    MomSense says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Yes. Justice Dems are not our allies.

  104. 104
    Baud says:


    Mumble, richest country in the history of the world, mumble…

    Well, in this case, the money was there for the taking. This wasn’t about spending priorities but sociopathy.

  105. 105
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    Cool. I see there’s an e-book version. I might spring for that.

  106. 106
    Rileys Enabler says:

    @Scotian: Good morning, glad to see you back to fight another day. Yesterday was such a swampy miasma (not all bad, but frustrating as hell) that you’ll have plenty of reading and sifting to do today. BLECH.

  107. 107
  108. 108
    Rileys Enabler says:

    @Immanentize: Thinking of you and Immp today, sending you patience and luck and hope.

  109. 109
    MomSense says:


    The deaths are just part of the story. Medicaid is hugely important because it provides treatment for substance abuse and mental health. We are dealing with the consequences – there are terrible things that don’t quite kill you but ruin your life in other ways. I don’t know that we’ll ever be able to fully account for all the human misery and tragedy Republicans caused by denying health care to poor people.

  110. 110

    @Baud: The more I think about our current politics, the more I believe growing income/wealth disparity is at the heart of democracy’s problems.

  111. 111
    Jinchi says:


    The voters caused this problem and they are the only ones who can fix it.

    This is my problem with this whole argument. Voters did not cause this problem. Trump lost the vote.

    The question we’re facing is whether a president is above the law and the answer to that question will have repurcussions long after Trump is gone. Members of Congress are openly asking whether a campaign soliciting help from a hostile foreign power is the “new normal”, and Bob Mueller has answered “Yes”. Trump and Kushner have both declared that they’re willing to take that help (again) and the attorney general seems fine with that.

    Sen. @ChrisCoons to Barr: “If a foreign adversary…offers a presidential candidate dirt on a competitor in 2020, do you agree with me the campaign should immediately contact the FBI?”

    Barr hesitates before responding.

    If the president is not above the law, then every link in the chain checking him, including the investigators, the Justice Department, the courts, and the legislature, has to use the levers available to them. Even if none of them individually have the power to remove him. The voters are at the very end of that chain they aren’t the start of it.

    Trump is going to get away with it because the Senate won’t convict.

    I have no patience for this argument. Investigators have risked their careers, and others are being threatened with prosecution for doing their jobs. What did they do that for? Why would they ever do it again?

  112. 112
    SenyorDave says:

    @zhena gogolia: having a staff full of people who “hated the President.
    That part is probably true. I’ve come to the conclusion that if you don’t hate this president there is something wrong with you.

  113. 113
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    Yes. Just more convenient, and one less object to be gathering dust.

  114. 114
    Haroldo says:


    It’s been said many and many ways, but fingers crossed.

  115. 115
    Chyron HR says:


    If the president is not above the law

    The president is literally above the law. Mueller told us that yesterday. The Democrats holding an entirely symbolic “Trump is a very bad boy” vote will not change that.

  116. 116
  117. 117
    zhena gogolia says:


    I wish someone would ask them on camera, “Could we please see the private text messages of all the FBI agents who investigated Hillary Clinton’s e-mail server?”

    How many of them were having affairs with each other? Why is this relevant?

  118. 118
    Tony Jay says:


    I posted this in an earlier thread, but it fits just as well in this discussion,

    The maddening thing, or rather the most maddening out of a whole host of things, is the obvious and crippling disparity in Media coverage of the Right vs the Left.

    Every problem for the Right is viewed through the lens of “Will this be a problem for X Right Wing politician with their supporters? If not, and it never is, then it’s not a story, so move on.”

    While every problem for the Left is viewed through the lens of “Will the Right be able to make this a problem for X Left Wing politician by lying about it? If so, and they always do, then it’s a story, so stay on it.

    I know, I know, but it’s still infuriating.

    I’m pretty much of the opinion that you can’t have a proper democracy with this kind of overwhelming bias in coverage of major issues. It pollutes everything. Unless every single citizen dedicates large chunks of their sparse spare time to digging down into primary sources and doing the Fourth Estate’s job for it, then a large chunk of them are going to be basing their political decisions on bad information. There’s no way that doesn’t have a destructive effect on society.

  119. 119
    MomSense says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    While we’re at it could we also find out why they were basing their investigation on a discredited book written by a political hack?

  120. 120
    MomSense says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Well said. I agree completely with you’re analysis. The Murdoch entities alone have been a terrible, destructive force harming our democracies.

  121. 121
    ola azul says:


    Living in Trumpistani Alaska and being a fellow member of the brethren of dumb fishermen, I hears ya. Course, it’sa old story.

    Poor white crackers in the antebellum South who hadn’t got them no slaves clung steadfastly to the “promise” of the South and in many instances fought to the last breath for the evanescent bowl of pottage that, maybe!, just maybe! if they pull themselves up by their bootstraps, they *too* might could get them some slaves, and hey, if it didn’t work out, well, at least the crackers were endowed with the consolation of knowin’ they were better’n, ahem, those people.

    Barbara Tuchman’s “March of Folly” has been on my mind of late.

    Any good concerts to settle the nerves?

  122. 122
    Sab says:

    @rikyrah: Thanks for the reminder. I just called my rep and thanked him, since he had already come out for impeachment.

  123. 123
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Immanentize: My wife took a photo of me all prepped before I went into the OR. I don’t remember a thing.

    When the anesthesiologist put the needle with the good stuff into my IV line, she’d said “see you later”, and it was lights out (she’s a pharmacist.)

    Good luck with the waiting. We’ll still be here.

  124. 124
    MomSense says:

    @ola azul:

    Symphony season ended in May. Usually I try to catch a concert at the Bowdoin International Music Festival but the tickets are too expensive now. I’m hoping I can skip out of work for one afternoon to at least see one of the open masterclasses.

    Couple days ago, my oldest son brought an 84 year old beautiful guitar he had restored (it was a jackal miracle gift) and he played some amazing finger picking style music – old delta blues and a couple of his songs. He also gave my youngest a lesson which was a treat.

    Music is oxygen for me. I suspect it is for you, too.

    Ok off to the shitshow that is my work life.

  125. 125
    rikyrah says:


    It’s just sad.

    It really is :(

  126. 126

    In addition to showing Trump’s crimes, I’d like to see the Ds (including us) articulate and hold up the ideals Trump and the Rs are destroying: democracy as people choosing their government, equality before the law, government obliged to serve and protect ALL the people. Stuff like that. I don’t know how you do that in an effective way, but those ideals can still thrill people. We were all taught them as children.

    ETA: Maybe art is one place those ideals are held up–literature, movies, music. Music certainly played a role in the 60s resistance to Vietnam.

  127. 127
    ola azul says:


    So very cool. Hold fast to the good things. It’s all we got.

  128. 128
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Anesthetic is weird. I’ve had it a couple times in recent memory for minor things (wisdom tooth removal, colonoscopy) and that instant lights out / instant waking up thing is just so strange. They tell me it’s a really light dose, that I’m not actually being put under. And somewhere I read or maybe they told me, that what it’s really doing is blocking your memory so that you are not retaining any short-term memory of what is happening in the procedure.

    Apparently (she rags me on it, I don’t remember) I chose to tell my wife that I had been laid off just before she went in for something, and she was told she talked about my layoff through the entire procedure.

  129. 129
    TheMightyTrowel says:

    In totally different news… I’m engaged in a comment war on a paywalled sports website because they’ve just published this super long profile of a guy on a team i follow that’s pretty much all about what a good little fundamentalist he is and how that makes him a great dude. I’m trying really hard not to lose my temper while explaining that you can’t simultaneosly think ‘stick to sports’ is a thing and also really applaud an overt, evangelical god botherer.

  130. 130
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Baud: contacted Brian Higgins this morning. Scolded my FB friends (all 25 mostly related by blood or marriage) to do so as well.

    By the way, there’s talk that “Justice Democrats” want to primary Higgins. They are seriously misunderstanding the political leanings in WNY.

  131. 131
    JWR says:

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    I was surprised by two things on Colbert last night:

    Same here. Either he or his writing staff occasionally pinch out one of these giant turds, over which I can only wince. Fortunately, the “bombs” are few and far between.

  132. 132
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Scotian: I agree that Dems need to work the media refs as aggressively as the GOP started doing a generation ago — both elected officials and the public. Our task is complicated by a fragmented media environment, so it’s more of an uphill climb.

    @Chyron HR: Sanders is for an impeachment inquiry (not a vote, an inquiry) — he said so at least a couple of months ago.

  133. 133
    satby says:

    @Immanentize: sending a hug. The waiting is hard.

  134. 134
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: You are correct, what’s used for the relatively minor procedures is midazolam, which blocks the formation of memories. So you’re somewhat responsive, but you don’t remember a thing. My last surgery was pretty major carpentry, so it was midazolam and other medications.

  135. 135
    ola azul says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    The more I think about our current politics, the more I believe growing income/wealth disparity is at the heart of democracy’s problems.

    In principle, am agreed. If yer a member of the plutocracy who wants to hoard it all and give nothing back, one way to deflect attention away from your rapacious unpatriotic greed is to set factions to warring against e/o. If you was looking at a map of our situation, the “You Are Here” symbol would be roundly at the center.

    But: In practice, i.e. politically, the observation is some wanting, imo, b/c it’s too reductionist and narrow to galvanize a majority.

    Viz. Wilmer.

    That ain’t right, but that’s the field as it, ahem, lies.


  136. 136
    Citizen Alan says:


    Do the farmers realize that the food stamp recipients keep them paid?

    Not anymore. Now that they get Farmer Welfare, they’re fine with abolishing food stamps and letting their countrymen starve.

  137. 137
    Jinchi says:

    @Chyron HR:

    The president is literally above the law. Mueller told us that yesterday.

    Actually, Mueller said that the president can be indicted after leaving office, which is the reason he bothered taking on the investigation despite the Republican Senate.

    Of course, if Trump ever is indicted, his defense will no doubt include “If they knew I committed crimes, the Democrats would have impeached me.”

    Which is another reason to impeach him, even if it gets blocked by the Senate.

  138. 138
    Fair Economist says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: For my last colonoscopy, I insisted on not getting any memory wiping drugs like Versed because of a horrible effect they’d had on my mother when they sedated her once. She lost virtually all short-term memory for almost two months. I would sit down with her to eat dinner, and 10 minutes later she’d ask me if I’d eaten dinner yet. She did eventually recover – mostly – but I’m not going to risk that.

    Anyway, I distinctly remember being put under. I felt this warm relaxing feeling sweep over me and I said to the anesthetist “you’ve given me the anesthetic, right?” She said “yes”, and that was the last thing I remembered until I woke up.

  139. 139
    Dog Mom says:

    @debbie: Thank you for posting – I fell asleep just as it began . . .

  140. 140
    UncleEbeneezer says:

    @Another Scott: This was my exact takeaway too. I watched the press conference, but not the actual testimony. The press conference made it crystal clear to me that this thing is headed to an Impeachment Inquiry (once the courts have spoken.). Nancy and her crew, and numerous Reps are all on a similar message and there appears to be a plan. I even texted my wife (who’s away on a business trip) “Holy shit, watch the press conference, I think we’re ultimately gonna see Impeachment Proceedings (with an assumed acquittal in Senate, of course). They are starting to publicly make a case for the justification and my guess is that the plan was always to move to this step after Mueller had testified.

    But of course much of the Left are whining because this isn’t IMPEACHMENT NOW and “SheDoesn’tReallyMeanIt” and “Why Won’t Dems DO Something?” despite the fact that Dems are now doing one of the things that their critics have been demanding they do (starting to make case, explain to public, coordinate messaging etc.)

  141. 141
    Kay says:


    Why aren’t those optics upsetting to the fucking villagers who are so obsessed with social order and civility?

    I thought the Jordan scandal crossed a line and there would be some accountability, if only because the university has a lot of powerful business people who support it and promote it and it came so closely on the heels of the gymnast scandal, but it didn’t. Nothing happened. I was shocked. I think it’s a new low. We’re really bumping along the bottom now. They may have to dig a trench.

  142. 142
    Scotian says:


    Yes, watching what the GOPers were doing to a real American patriot of the old school disgusted me no end. He is the kind of old school conservative I not only understand and respect, but tend to share values with. Things like belief in rule of law, the importance of the civil/social contract, and other little things like that.

    I have conservative beliefs that fuel a good chunk of my liberal social policy positions and values. One of my personal reasons for loathing the modern NA “conservatives” over the past 40 years now is because of they way they have perverted a legitimate and healthy political perspective into the monstrosity it has become.

    I see it as starting with the refusal to clean up the mess the Nixonites left in the wake of his departure and Ford’s pardoning to Reagan bringing in the religious right to form a base made up of whites yet ostensibly being about religious freedom combined with the notion that government is evil needing Grover Norquist’s notion of drowning government in the bathtub. Then the Cold War ended, the GOP needing a new enemy to hold the coalition together and lo and behold, Gingrich, Hastert, and Delay kick the domestic demonization up a notch, goes into scorched earth mode, destroys the premise of consensus governing, and calls compromise another word for date rape.

    Then Sept 11 happens giving us terrorists as this sudden new threat abroad and the gays as the internal one for GWB’s term in power and then horror of horrors it is a choice between their worst fears, the black man and the demoness shillary killary Hillary out to ruin all that is good and white, I mean right, in the world. Thus we ended up finding out that it really was easier to elect a black man to a white woman in modern America.

    When Obama term limited out, all forces aimed again to stop her once more, and it turned out Trump and Russia were preferable allies, not just to Trump, but the GOP leadership as witnessed by the way Mitch Mcconnell refused to allow any action from Obama over what Russia was blatantly doing, despite his knowing of it. He was and is part of the gang of 8, and as Adam L Silverman and myself among others here could see it (the Russian op) in no small part because Vlad wasn’t really trying to hide it, there is no way Mitch missed it.

    So for those GOP traitors to not just American core political values but core western civilization values about self governance and who should make such choices to treat a man whose entire life represented those values in his service as HRC’ did in hers…well I lack the words to fully express my rage and contempt.

    Sorry, bit of a rant there, but the buttons watching what those GOP congresscritters do to an honourable man like Bobby three sticks, well kinda needed it a bit and I’m betting you get where I’m coming from based in part to your comment I am replying to.

  143. 143
  144. 144
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I agree that Dems need to work the media refs as aggressively as the GOP started doing a generation ago — both elected officials and the public. Our task is complicated by a fragmented media environment, so it’s more of an uphill climb.

    Personally, I’ve come around to the idea that the GOP isn’t working the media refs. The problem isn’t that the media is dominated by moderates-liberals who can be manipulated into bothsiderism because they value impartiality as a journalistic virtue. The problems is that most of them are conservatives! They all work for powerful media conglomerates or wealthy individuals who would never tolerate a voice that was genuinely liberal, and so most media opinion-leaders are wealthy whites (primarily male) whose wealth and privilege depends on the largesse of their employers. Honestly, who here thinks that Chuck Todd gives a shit about refugee children being abused in concentrations camps? Or at least that he cares about them as much as he does that Trump Tax Cut he benefited from?

  145. 145
    rikyrah says:

    Please explain this to me…how does this SON look like the SPITTING IMAGE OF HIS MOTHER?

    I mean…WOW.
    I remember his mother in that dress.

    Damian Hurley, 17, pays tribute to his mum Elizabeth, 54, in safety-pin blazer as he attends glamorous make-up launch… 25 years after she donned THAT Versace dress

    PUBLISHED: 09:03 EDT, 25 July 2019 |

  146. 146
    Kay says:

    I get that people are mad at the Lefties and I was in the camp that said “let Pelosi do her job” and remain there, but I do think you have to be careful not to be perceived as telling really worked up people “nothing can be done” and sometimes it sounds like that even to me. It starts to sound like we’re telling people over and over what we can’t do, which is just the kiss of death if you want enthusiasm and engagement, and I think you do! :)

    If she can’t impeach tell them what she can do. Then do it.

  147. 147
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Immanentize: Linkie vanished, try again…I Say A Little Prayer for You

    (and Immp, of course!)

  148. 148
    kindness says:

    I don’t think Mueller did so bad. He confirmed Trump is a criminal and should be impeached.

    Our MSM is our problem. Chuck Todd’s problem isn’t so much that he’s oblivious (he is), it that he loves more than anything else to be the face that’s talking during the tv piece. They are so in love with themselves they aren’t feeding us news, they are feeding us their own personal Instagrams.

    And the producers let them. At some level, the MSM is owned and controlled by Republicans for exactly what we see today, Overcoming that is our problem.

  149. 149
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    And somewhere I read or maybe they told me, that what it’s really doing is blocking your memory so that you are not retaining any short-term memory of what is happening in the procedure.

    Yes, for some procedures that is true, I have read that it is so you can answer simple questions. I recently saw a video of a musician having brain surgery while he was playing his guitar (I forget the whys and wherefors of it)

  150. 150
    Citizen Alan says:


    Yes, watching what the GOPers were doing to a real American patriot of the old school disgusted me no end.

    Honestly, I was blase about that. After what they did to John Kerry in 2004 (remember the Purple Heart band-aids from the convention?), I realized that the swine don’t recognize any form of patriotism that deviate from partei loyalty.

  151. 151
    SFAW says:


    Thinking of you and Immp, hoping things go well.

  152. 152
    oldgold says:


    Why are we bound by this half-assed DOJ memo?

    When I was teaching Constitutional Law, if someone handed in a paper espousing the notions contained in this memo, I would have flunked them. It is nonsense and worse.

  153. 153
    Dog Mom says:

    @Scotian: I am glad that you are here now to add insightful comments. Your presence is awesome. I wish you have many, many moments where time stands still and you can enjoy peace with your wife and loved ones – hopefully panfry and with no worries of the uncertain future. (Damn you autocorrect, here I am trying to write something touching and you change ‘pain free’ into panfry! ) I give up on composure now and hope you can enjoy laughter and bad humor till you are gone to sleep. Digital hugs and let your wife know this group will be here for her.

  154. 154
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Citizen Alan: You’re definitely right about some Beltway reporters, and I don’t doubt for a second that the fact that most are white males from privileged backgrounds shades the coverage. But IMO, many more are just lazy and bad at their jobs. Above all, they fear being exposed as frauds who’ve been played because their entire self-image is constructed around being ironic and savvy.

    @Kay: Yep. Keeping the activists on board is as much a part of the job as protecting the centrists.

  155. 155
    Baud says:


    I tried that in this very thread, Kay. History shows that alternatives are never going to be good enough.

    Also, too, why are we coddling worked up people? That just encourages people to get more worked up. Does anyone on the left silence themselves because they don’t want to piss off Baud. I don’t think so.

  156. 156
    The Moar You Know says:

    This is my problem with this whole argument. Voters did not cause this problem. Trump lost the vote.

    @Jinchi: President Hillary Clinton is mighty relieved to hear that.

    Reality: Donald Trump won in 2016 whether you like it or not. That election is going to have consequences that will last for decades. I wasn’t urging people to vote for someone else.

    You were. Own what you’ve done, instead of doubling down and blaming the Democratic Party again for your poor life choices.

  157. 157
    frosty says:

    @Scotian: Glad to see you here. I hope the news reaction stays positive so you can stay positive. Seems to me the headlines are all over the place ATM.

  158. 158
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Immanentize: Joining the jackal throngs in wishing the best for you and Immp.

  159. 159
    germy says:

    Tonight I tweeted a pic of a Georgetown party hosted by @maureendowd, attended by @SpeakerPelosi, @SenSchumer and DC journos. In the old days it would’ve been a benign big-shot brag. No more. It was viciously ratio’d by left and right. I deleted it. All establishments are hated.— Howard Fineman (@howardfineman) July 25, 2019

    "Benign big-shot brag" shows some industrial-grade cluelessness. It should be embarassing to post a picture of yourself at a party with people you're covering "neutrally." This isn't benign. You don't have to throw eggs at politicians, but stop sucking up like a groupie.— Kyle, Millionth of His Name (@WatcherInTheWry) July 25, 2019

  160. 160
    trollhattan says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    Me likie! Not familiar with her before now.

  161. 161
    germy says:

    .@CISAKrebs, speaking at #ICCS2019, says the Obama administration was "caught a little flat-footed" on election interference in 2016.“We’re not going to be caught flat-footed again. We’re ready for what they’re going to bring at us.”— Eric Geller (@ericgeller) July 25, 2019

    Krebs says DHS's Albert sensors are now monitoring election systems accounting for 100 percent of votes that will be cast in 2020. In 2016, it was only 32 percent. By 2018, it was 90 percent. #ICCS2019— Eric Geller (@ericgeller) July 25, 2019

  162. 162
    Scotian says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    Yes, but there is more than a slight difference doing that to a political foe/opponent and doing it to your own side, especially one with his record. Not to mention Kerry was a politician whereas Mueller was /is not, which is another difference of significance.

    Trust me, I well remember what happened with Kerry, at the time I was a regular at Kevin Drum’s Political Animal as Scotian fighting back on the swift boat a-holes
    It also was what took away any lingering respect I had for John McCain, because he betrayed the band of brotherhood he and Kerry had exemplified in the political context. There are some kinds of betrayal that really put my back up above and beyond a basic level, and is one near the top of my list.

  163. 163
    Brooklyn Dodger says:

    @kindness: Exactamundo! Mueller did great. I’m looking at these clips. He answered the important questions clearly and with no room for doubt.

  164. 164
    Kay says:


    But they aren’t the only people hearing it. Regular Democrats hear it, and I’m afraid they hear it as “nothing can be done and here’s why”. People don’t care about process. They think that’s the Democrats job, to figure out “how”. You can’t tell them “we’re pros, we’re in charge” and then tell them over and over what you can’t do. That leaves them nothing- they can’t agitate because the pros will handle this, but the pros are telling them it can’t be done. I don’t know- figure out what they can do and then do that. Ordinary rank and file Democrats won’t care if it’s specifically “impeachment on Mueller”. These people are corrupt as hell. Pick an issue and start investigating. There are emails showing DeVos and her low quality hires intervening on behalf of for-profit colleges. There’s a lawsuit. Do that. Those are very sympathetic victims- “they wanted only to better themselves….” But pick something. NOT impeaching is not an act.

  165. 165
    burnspbesq says:


    I’m eager to hear you explain how the House can remove Trump.

  166. 166
    Elizabelle says:

    @Scotian: Good morning there!

    Good comment on the treatment of Mueller. For me, the actual bad optics were the crazy-loop Republicans assailing Mueller as a fraud on a fishing trip, who didn’t know the law. One was schooling him, with his Case-Western J.D.

    Those Republican congressmembers (with the exception of Will Hurd) were terrifying in their ignorance and acrimony.

    I kept thinking of Arthur Miller’s play “The Crucible”, because those were the ugly people who would burn the witch. And see witches everywhere.

    Naturally, their cognitive dissonance drives them to accuse Mueller of conducting a witch hunt.

    I don’t know what you do when lapdogs like Chuck Todd and the NY Times access specialists whine about the bad optics for the Democrats, when they’ve been treated to half of a hearing that is conducted by lunatics. Was anyone talking about what a fool Devin Nunes was? Probably no, because “everybody knows that.”

    Except “everybody” doesn’t know that. All they hear is that Democrats have failed. Again. Move on.

    All that said, more people are catching on than MSM timid media seems to realize.

  167. 167
    ola azul says:


    Thank you for making a point that understands and respects the downsides of slagging on those with whom one disagrees re: impeachment.

    Me, I am pro-impeachent inquiry. Will confess, it tries the patience to be spoken to as if you are a child who understands nothing of how the real world works. Personally, I understand the position of those who call for measured restraint and allowing our gatekeepers to “handle” this.

    But I also know that don’t fuck-all nothing ever get done w/o shaking the bushes and making a ruckus. Viz. the health care debate.

    When folks who mean well lecture others about why they’re doing it wrong, I often wonder: Have they examined their premise? Is it possible that they are mistaken? Is being passive and reactive really a better play than being assertive and proactive?

    Are the costs in depressing enthusiasm and thus turnout by not opening an impeachment inquiry really worth not pursuing, post-haste, a fully and abundantly justified impeachment inquiry?

    Not in my opinion. Perhaps others disagree, and that’s OK. But I will say, from this end of the porch, it’s more’n some frustrating to be patronizingly admonished by the church of the savvy about what is and what ain’t possible when that orange motherfucker is running roughshod over everyone and everything. One of the mistakes made by liberals during the Obama years was in not making a ruckus comparable to the TeaPartyFrauds.

    That, and if Dems do not, at minimum, open an impeachent inquiry, you may rest assured that Trump will claim, longly and loudly, that he was exonerated (i.e. precisely the fear of those who worry that the Senate will not convict will be made manifest; with the demoralizing bonus of knowing Dems did fuck-all-nothing to counter the claim with the pig-ignorant voting electorate — the worst of both worlds! excellent!). And by virtue of the Democratic crime of omission, Agent Orange will largely be viewed as correct with that same pig-ignorant electorate that ain’t political obsessives. This seems a less-than-ideal outcome.

    There’sa price for political cowardice. The Dems think they’ll beat Trump in 2020, but if they fail to reveal his manifest crimes and betrayals to the country, Dems may find their prudent restraint punished cuz the hoi polloi won’t never know what alla political obsessives take for granted.

    Oh, and support for Nixon’s impeachment in April of ’72 was ’bout 19 percent if mem’ry serves. By August, Nixon had resigned.

    What peeps purport to KNOW, often, just ain’t so. Don’t nobody know nothing. And what’s so frustrating is it seems, to me, like our country is so suffering from a battered-spouse-like syndrome, there’sa complete failure of imagination about what could be. Specially when assertive, proactive pressure is applied.

    I ain’t saying Trump will be convicted (tho will say, again, don’t nobody know nothing; the Senate is loyal to Trump in direct proportion to his ability to maintain sufficient support to help them get reelected; that support erodes, the Senate calculus *could* change. But I’m with Warren on this one: make the motherfuckers vote on impeachment. If a Republican Senator wants to go on the record as a supporter of Trump’s treasonous (in the vernacular, not legal sense) crimes and betrayals, fine. Then make these slippery motherfuckers own it. See no reason why a Senate vote on impeachment couldn’t be used very effectively by Dems as a galvanizing moment and a popular concrete rationale for Dems taking back the Senate.

    (Sorry, Kay, rant not directed at you, personally. Just wanted to say I appreciate your ability to see the ramifications of the seeming need by some to slag on folks with whom one disagrees as tho they are either trolls or naifs. People disagree. It’s messy. But it’s nice to not be immediately suspect or dismissed, specially when the person doing the admonishing might just be the one who is mistaken.)

  168. 168
    Emma says:

    @rikyrah: That kid is the most beautiful creature I have ever seen. I do wonder, though, what goes through the heads of those children brought up in the unforgiving light of the fashion world.

  169. 169
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy: also suggests that top Dems still think MoDo is their friend, which is one of the dumbest traits I’ve seen Pelosi manifest (Schumer, while I don’t think he’s an abject moron, I’ve never had that high an opinion of)

    @Kay: but I do think you have to be careful not to be perceived as telling really worked up people “nothing can be done”

    at the risk of sounding like one of those condescending old farts, which I am, and while being one who thinks Dems should be more aggressive about their investigations*, I do think there’s a problem of people who just don’t want to believe that sometimes process is more than just an excuse. Trump gets to trample on norms cause he’s got the support of the corrupt R Senate. Dems don’t have that luxury. If oversight– whether investigations or impeachment– is going to work, Dems need all the proverbial i’s dotted and t’s crossed, and furthermore to that, hope that all that proper paperwork gets to a non-ideologically-corrupt judge. And even then, hope that someone, probably someone lower down the hierarchy like Annie Donaldson, has an attack of conscience or patriotism, and just tells the damn truth. Impeachment can’t just be a display of moral righteousness, and it feels to this phlegmatic old fart like that’s what a lot of my more excitable, younger (in fact or spirit) allies both want, and believe.

    * I’m assuming they can be more aggressive. There was an article going around yesterday saying that Nadler has a skeleton staff of lawyers pursuing those subpoenas of McGahn et al. I don’t know if more lawyers would be effective, if there is the budget for more lawyers, if Nadler makes that decision, etc

  170. 170
    Kay says:


    And, I’m not talking about “your comment on Balloon Juice”. I’m not delusional, Baud.

    I don’t actually believe we’re trendsetters :)

    Democrats sound like “stymied, again!” I know from my practice that people fucking hate this- they hear it as excuse-making and they think it is not about them. And it’s not. If they have to figure out process – how to get from A to B- then what do they need me for?

  171. 171
    Baud says:


    But pick something. NOT impeaching is not an act.

    They’re doing a lot of that. But media and social media want to talk about impeachment, and not impeaching, and that gets filtered down to ordinary Dems.

    I agree that the only way forward for Dems is to power past media and social media noise.

  172. 172
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I’m sure some of you have seen this

    @ JoeNBC
    Jesus, forgive me for ever being a Republican.

    It makes me wonder what Joe Scarborough did in the recent general election in Florida. Was he out there on the hustings, actively campaigning against Rick Scott (?) and the trump clone who’s now governor ? I don’t know if he did or didn’t, or if he has any following anywhere in the state, but if he wasn’t, Jesus would forgive him if he had acted on his new faith. Same for David Jolly, who loves to scold Democrats for not doing more.

  173. 173
    Elizabelle says:

    @burnspbesq: Hello there.

    I like the Democrats investigating, investigating, investigating. Have a court case or two go their way. Force witnesses affiliated with Trump’s White House (and Cabinet?) to show up. Build the case for all the malfeasance that goes on.

    Build the case for impeachment. I hope that those investigations will turn up so much wrong-doing that it becomes impossible for any Senator who is not from the reddest of red states to blithely ignore the House’s charges.

    Actually, what I would love to happen is something that embroils McConnell but good, whether it’s an investigation or a well-reported blockbuster story (the WaPost did a good one on McConnell-Chao, but it did not get traction because who knows what “optics” the media was discussing that day) … anyway, I hope for something that threatens McConnell personally too. Something that can be described in 12 words would be great.

    The Senate won’t convict? Maybe no, but maybe yes. One does not know what is under all these Trump/GOP rocks. Some of it might be so ugly that many Senators’ re-elections could be difficult if they continue to ignore what is going on in this country.

    Also, those Trump tax returns will come out at some point, won’t they?

    And: New York State. What’s going on with the Trump Organization accountant, Allan Weisburger or whatever? Lotta silence on that, but I would expect work is proceeding.

  174. 174
    Baud says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    also suggests that top Dems still think MoDo is their friend, which is one of the dumbest traits I’ve seen Pelosi manifest 

    Agree. Although they also get damned for not sucking up to journalists.

  175. 175
    chris says:

    @MomSense: The Chinese probably don’t need Maine lobster any more given the way they’re buying up the Nova Scotia pounds and processors.

  176. 176
    Elizabelle says:

    @Baud: Whatever happened to “hold your friends close, and your enemies closer”?

    Does anyone think Nancy Pelosi does not notice what MoDo did with that interview, recently?

  177. 177
    Kay says:


    Text from a regular Democrat this AM- someone who takes buses to canvass in PA when OH is lost, which is much more than I do:

    “Trump is resuming fed death penalty. 5 scheduled. It just gets worse”

    OK, the fed death penalty – frankly- is kind of a niche thing (the death penalty, sadly, is popular) but this hopelessness concerns me. They need to pay attention to it. Rally, House Democrats. Buck up. Be on her side. She won’t care if you lose- she’ll care if you don’t fight. Get bloody doing it.

  178. 178
    germy says:

    @Kay: And they’re changing to single injection, rather than the death drug cocktail.

  179. 179
    Baud says:


    What do you think is happening, Kay? It sounds like your bus friend is giving up, not Dems. Frankly, I just think a lot of our people are comfortable with learned helplessness. It’s been going on for too long, and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. Maybe after 12 years of Trump/Pence, Chelsea Clinton can take back the White House and we can start the cycle all over again.

  180. 180
    ruemara says:

    @Derelict: Please GFY.

    If the way media and the pure have treated Mueller’s testimony didn’t give you a preview of what the actual impeachment inquiry would look like, then you need prescription glasses. The media are not interested in impeachment. They want ratings inducing spectacle and fire level hot bad takes. The republicans were screaming whackaloons busting out with qanon internet conspiracy theories, the president had a lunatic tantrum in front of the cameras, Mueller confirmed the Trump campaign colluded with a foreign power & that this is illegal AND he obstructed justice, interfered with the case, is a crook and ALL of that is illegal and impeachable. What are people sharing? Articles about how this was a dud. Bullshit feels about how Pelosi must impeach now because that’s how a governing body works, right? She’s Speaker so she’s a little god-emperor holding back true progressives from doing shit through her mighty will? OBVS SHE’S ON TRUMP’S SIDE. Christ, Americans make me sick. It’s your fucking government and you can’t be half-assed to learn how shit works. How do so many get wrapped up in Game of Thrones yet not have a little clueball about organizing an entire group of people to agree to one damned thing with all their different interests.

    And this isn’t on the voters? Votes put that man in office. Not the popular vote, but enough key wins to game the EC system. And it was entirely the voters making those choices if they weren’t being suppressed. And it’s been those same voters always returning horrible, evil republicans to office, no matter the corruption. Those same voters always siding with people preventing others from voters. It is ENTIRELY up to voters. If voters didn’t run back to the human slop piles that are conservatives, every fucking election, or sit shit out because the democratic candidate wasn’t anti-GMO – Trump wouldn’t be here. So it damned well is on voters. And if they wanted Trump gone and every Trump republican gone, well, we wouldn’t be providing quaint vigils and permitted marches once in a few months where we take pictures with cops to show how nice we are and polite and respectable. We’d be like PR, where sustained, directed anger got their crook out. It doesn’t solve the problems, but it takes out at least the figurehead. You have a lawless party & administration. You want the laws to apply in fighting them when they’re rapidly corrupting the judiciary. Good luck with that.

  181. 181

    @Baud: @Kay: I would tell the friend to tune out the media. They never give elected Ds credit but hold them accountable for not just their perceived faults but also those of the elected Rs. Scolding Ds is their mission in life.

  182. 182
    JPL says:

    @Immanentize: Thinking of you!

  183. 183
    Elizabelle says:

    @Baud: It’s Ohio, Jake.

    I don’t believe how anyone could believe the House Democrats are just sitting on their hands. Timing is everything.

    Yesterday’s press conference was reassuring on that front.

    I don’t trust those who want to tear the Democrats apart, for their own purposes. Why do people fall for that?

  184. 184
    germy says:

    I saw this op-ed in the Washington Post:

    I’m the administrator of Medicaid and Medicare. A public option is a bad idea.
    By Seema Verma

    Who is she?


    She is the founder and previous CEO of SVC Inc., a health policy consulting firm, now known as Health Management Associates (HMA).

    She was the architect of the health insurance pilot program known as the “Healthy Indiana Plan”, which received support from the Indiana legislature and passed into law in January 2008. Designed for people with low income, the plan requires participants to pay into a health savings account and has high deductibles. According to Verma, “you have to make your contribution every month, with a 60-day grace period. If you don’t make the contribution, you’re out of the program for 12 months. It’s a strong personal responsibility mechanism.”

    In 2014, an article in The Indianapolis Star raised concerns over a potential conflict of interest arising from Verma’s dual roles as both a health care consultant for Indiana and an employee of a Hewlett-Packard division that is among Indiana’s largest Medicaid vendors. As of 2014, SVC Inc. had been awarded over $3.5 million in Indiana state contracts. Verma was concurrently employed with Hewlett-Packard, earning over $1 million during a period when the company had secured $500 million in state contracts.

  185. 185

    @germy: She is also on the Desi Wall of Shame
    desi ==country (meant to be from India or Indian/ South Asian origin here)

  186. 186
    satby says:

    @Elizabelle: INORITE? Like every single person at every party are all close personal friends with every other person there.
    It’s a stupid criticism. If anything, the so called “journalists” are the ones who should be excoriated for attending social events with the people they cover.

  187. 187
    Mandalay says:


    Chuck Todd’s problem isn’t so much that he’s oblivious (he is), it that he loves more than anything else to be the face that’s talking during the tv piece. They are so in love with themselves they aren’t feeding us news…

    Columbia Journalism Review did a brief review of MSNBC hosts reviewing the hearing, and they agree with you:

    For Chuck Todd all the political world’s a stage, and he’s the star.

    And it’s not just Todd. Other MSNBC anchors reacted to the Mueller hearings similarly, finding fault with the Democrats’, and Mueller’s, lack of pizazz as performers. Brian Williams referred to “the caffeine gap” in the Judiciary Committee’s questioning. I can’t help pointing out that excessive concern with caffeinated pizzazz can warp a journalist’s judgement pretty severely, and is best avoided.

  188. 188
    Elizabelle says:

    @ruemara: Righteous, ruemara. Well said!

  189. 189
    MomSense says:


    Ayuh. The Maine Chinese lobster connection is ovah.

    Our lobsters are making their way to Canada, too. The ocean temps have been wildly warm this summer – lots of shark sightings.

  190. 190
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @MomSense: a WaPo political reporter tweeted out that the water temperature in the Potomac was 94 a few days ago. I can’t even wrap my head around that. It’s 108 in Paris today, record heat in Germany. Forest fires above the arctic circle… shit ain’t good

  191. 191
    Eural Joiner says:


    We’re really bumping along the bottom now. They may have to dig a trench.

    Our new national motto? Gets my vote!

  192. 192
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud:Okay, but “shut up and go away, critics” and “the feckless media is too powerful to overcome on the messaging front” are also a form of learned helplessness. Those particular forms just happen to be popular on this blog right now.

  193. 193
    Elizabelle says:

    @satby: hello there!

  194. 194
    Frankensteinbeck says:

    For everyone who wants impeachment now to motivate the voters, I invite you to imagine what will happen when Mitch votes it down in the Senate. Will the people complaining now be glad Democrats tried, or blame Democrats for not succeeding?

    Hint: It will be the latter. There is no upside there.

    I do think there’s an alternative, but it only happens if McConnell votes impeachment down during the presidential election. You get to have Trump’s scandals on display when they matter, and blame McConnell at a time when voters feel they can act on that.

    You had also damn well better have everything organized first so the circus goes exactly the way you want it.

  195. 195
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    So I can’t respond to critics, and I can’t tell Dems to go around the media, without seeming helpless, even though I will be out there trying to defeat Rs no matter what?

    Sounds like my membership on this blog has been downgraded to second class.

  196. 196

    @Betty Cracker: I don’t think the media is all powerful. President Obama won twice and we just took back the House. But we need to remember that they are not our friends and not repeat their talking points of how NP and other elected Ds are doing it wrong.

  197. 197

    @Baud: Welcome to the club.

  198. 198
    rp says:

    @ola azul: Thank you! That perfectly captures my feelings over the last few weeks.

    @Baud: You can respond to critics, but don’t be surprised if others criticize you, especially when you’ve taken on this hall monitor tone.

  199. 199
  200. 200
    Baud says:


    I can give as good as I get.

  201. 201
    Sab says:

    @Another Scott: Thanks for your long comment #78 with the extensive quotes from Pelosi. My husband and I have been bickering about Pelosi all summer. I thought she was quietly lining things up and waiting until after the media summer silly season. He thinks she is just wringing her hands and doing nothing. He feels much less disgusted after reading your comment.

    Media is quoting her so far out of context that they are lying. That’s a problem. She doesn’t do soundbites well.

  202. 202
    Elizabelle says:

    @Betty Cracker: So “patience, grasshoppers” equates to “go away, critics”?

    Sometimes you have to ascertain how accurate the critics’ complaints are. Do you think the House Leadership does not take their mission seriously? Did you see Elijah Cummings yesterday? Do you think Nancy Pelosi tells him to just shut his piehole and leave her alone?

  203. 203
    Jinchi says:

    @The Moar You Know: @The Moar You Know: I’m not sure who you think I am but I personally voted for Clinton twice and I never lobbied for anyone to vote against her.

  204. 204
    MomSense says:


    Bravo, Rue. Well fucking said.

  205. 205
    Elizabelle says:


    hall monitor tone

    Do you want to tear this blog site apart?

    For baud, for reality, for comity.

  206. 206
    chris says:

    @MomSense: A tagged great white shark was tracked in the mouth of Halifax harbour a few days ago! uncommon to say the least.

  207. 207
    rp says:

    @Baud: True, and fair enough.

    @Elizabelle: I know, which is why I’ve been a little surprised. I’m sure many papers and books will be written about short tempers, civility, and mental health in the age of Trump. (assuming we still have papers and books in the future). (And I certainly put myself into that category)

  208. 208
    zhena gogolia says:


    Thank you.

  209. 209
    plato says:


    You can’t tell them “we’re pros, we’re in charge” and then tell them over and over what you can’t do.

    Loud words followed by weak actions can never convince people with minimum common sense.

  210. 210
    Miss Bianca says:

    @ruemara: Hear fucking hear.

  211. 211
    Elizabelle says:

    @plato: You are another of the magical thinkers.

  212. 212
    rp says:

    @plato: Yeah, but a huge chunk of the US population doesn’t have “minimum common sense.” Obviously there are far more on the right — that describes almost 100% of Trump voters, who love loud words followed by weak actions — but there are plenty on the left and in the middle. There are also a lot in the media.

  213. 213
    plato says:

    @Elizabelle: And you are another ‘realist’ preaching why it can’t be done.

  214. 214


    You can’t tell them “we’re pros, we’re in charge” and then tell them over and over what you can’t do.

    One of the things that marks a professional is knowing what cannot be done. You can tell a doctor over and over to cure your diabetes, and he’s going to continue treating it instead and giving you a lot of advice about what you need to do to help keep it under control. To do anything else would be unprofessional and betray your trust, no matter what you think he should do. We are in a closely similar situation.

    Pick an issue and start investigating.

    This is already happening, and since the administration said ‘Nu uh’ it went to the courts, which are slow. Hell, Nancy just gave a speech explaining that. Democrats can’t get any credit.

  215. 215
    rp says:

    This is already happening, and since the administration said ‘Nu uh’ it went to the courts, which are slow. Hell, Nancy just gave a speech explaining that. Democrats can’t get any credit.

    But much of the criticism has been about her communications and how she has sold and described the House’s overall strategy re Trump and impeachment. Her repeated comments undercutting impeachment have been really unhelpful.

    It’s mostly just optics, but optics matter. That said, I think yesterday’s press conference was a good start.

  216. 216
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Elizabelle: No, but comments like “I invite you to give up and run away now” pretty much equates to “go away, critics,” doesn’t it? I’m not trying to police the tone at all. IMO, people are blowing off steam and trying to figure out what they can do IRL, and that’s fine. Personally, I’m glad both the Clap Harder Caucus and the Impeach Nowniks still care enough to get angry about it.

  217. 217
    Elizabelle says:

    @plato: No. That is not true. Thank you for the “Exhibit A” there. You totally misrepresent anything I have ever said here. You are a big source of bad faith arguments.

    I would like to see impeachment proceedings. I would like to see them once we are further down the investigative path. A lot can change between now and next winter/spring. Build the case for impeachment, and also try to make the Republican senators pay a very real price for not taking impeachment more seriously.

    Trump is a worse threat than Nixon ever was, and in the early 1970s we still had reality-based Republicans, who put country before party. Fox News had not achieved its prominence. The GOP creatures at yesterday’s hearings were lunatics. Except for Will Hurd.

    Nancy Pelosi has a harder task in front of her than the Watergate era politicians ever did. Further, Nixon was not threatening the legitimacy of upcoming elections.

    Show me where I have ever, ever said No impeachment, no way. You won’t find it.

    Get to it, plato.

  218. 218
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Betty Cracker: I would say that the view that is popular on this blog right now is that it is important to dot the Is and cross the Ts. Process is important. If our side decides to ignore rules and procedures, then we are just a mirror image of the GOP with better goals. At that point, democracy and the rule of law in this country is dead. Doing the right thing the right way is a pain in the ass, it is slow and frustrating, but it is vital.

  219. 219
    Elizabelle says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    “I invite you to give up and run away now”

    Name names. I have not seen that (although I am not around as much lately.)

    Who is saying that?

  220. 220
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @rp: I always say Pelosi is a backroom pol, not a great communicator, and I mean the former as a compliment. She should definitely stop dismissing impeachment (“he’s not worth it”), stick to banalities about keeping the horse in front of the cart and following the fact and just what is the President so afraid of, and why, when it comes to Don McGahn and Hope Hicks and the American people knowing the whole story. When reporters scream those questions about impeachment at her, say “I know you want clicks, we want the facts, for the American people”

  221. 221
    Baud says:


    I said that. Up top. Because I’m tired of cynical potshots at Dems being cast as thoughtful criticism. It’s destructive.

  222. 222
    plato says:


    Nancy Pelosi has a harder task in front of her than the Watergate era politicians ever did. Further, Nixon was not threatening the legitimacy of upcoming elections.

    Aka, it can’t be done. Exhibit A indeed.

    And this is the first time I ever responded to you, I think. So, “You totally misrepresent anything I have ever said here. You are a big source of bad faith arguments” is ad hominem bs.

  223. 223
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: I’m with you on this one. I am getting so sick of people saying “the Democrats are Democratin’ ALL WRONG” when it seems to me they are doing as much as they can given the circumstances. When you have a media fixated on how Mueller looked and sounded while ignoring what he ACTUALLY SAID – when you have the Republicans and Trump in complete shit-fit meltdown grandstanding mode, but we can’t hammer that, because that means it’s just another Wednesday, so let’s all fixate on how MUELLER and the DEMOCRATS are so booorrrriiiiinngg with their focusing on facts and issues and procedures, and why don’t they just get out there and SCREAM THEIR HEADS OFF, because that’s working for Republicans, right? – I just want to hit my head on my desk till my brain bleeds. I mean, I’m sure the media and all our savvy critics will applaud that and NOT talk about how out-of-control and desperate and SHRILL the Democrats are, right?

    I get it. I get the frustration. I just wish that people were more focused on blaming the actual source of the dysfunction and corruption, and not on blaming the only people who actually are trying to clean it up.

  224. 224

    See ‘Democrats can’t get any credit.’ Optics and good explanations do matter, but they’re facing an uphill climb. There are a couple of people in this thread now haranguing Pelosi for not doing what she did yesterday. I remember vividly the widespread, damn near universal demands that Obama go on a tour explaining the ACA while Obama was on tour explaining the ACA. Everything Pelosi says that could be twisted into being critical of calls to impeach – saying she wants Trump in jail being a fine example – gets circulated as damning proof of Democrats in Disarray, and everything she says about lining things up for impeachment gets dropped down the memory hole so that the narrative she’s blocking impeachment can go forward. She is not the absolute best at it, but it’s a Herculean and unreasonable task.

  225. 225
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @plato: Saying something is difficult is not the same as saying it can’t be done.

  226. 226
    Baud says:


    To add, we wouldn’t watch our tone if some Blue Dog Dem came here and used the same language to AOC or the rest of the Squad. I just don’t see a reason to treat it any different because it comes from the other side of the ideological spectrum.

  227. 227
    Elizabelle says:


    Aka, it can’t be done

    That is NOT what I said. That is what you said.

    Reading comprehension. I just said it will be much harder, and she and her team (Adam Schiff!) need a lot more work and some luck to pull this off successfully.

    The bad faith arguments comment goes to how you represent Democrats. Particularly Democratic leadership. You and I have not gotten into it previously, that is true.

  228. 228
    plato says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: @Elizabelle:

    So, what exactly does repeatedly saying something is difficult and hard to do, mean?

  229. 229
    Chris Johnson says:

    @germy: Well, that’s also good news. Not that we’re going to see media cover it because it might imply, you know, that the election was a total sham and got outright stolen, and how embarassing that would be compared to just pretending all of America hates brown immigrant babies and wants to kill them.

    Clearly much better to cry racism and pretend all this is a real thing rather than an elaborate attack and new form of bloodless warfare by an enemy nation-state.

  230. 230
    plato says:

    People will have to rise up all over the nation like folks did in Puerto Rico– not solely to impeach 45, but to reject tyranny itself, to call for an end to the corruption of the ruling elite and to push for the realization of multiracial democracy in America.— Bree Newsome Bass (@BreeNewsome) July 25, 2019

  231. 231
    Elizabelle says:

    @plato: It says, have faith and have patience. And work, work, work. Call your representatives and senators and talk up what you’d like to see happen. Write to your local papers and news stations. The tinfoil set sure does.

    But do not spend your time lobbing potshots at people who are doing the very best they can in unprecedented circumstances.

    The right and the media demean Nancy Pelosi every chance they get. Now some on the the left have picked that up too. Maybe you should think it through a bit. What’s going on there?

  232. 232
    Miss Bianca says:

    @plato: It means that just yelling “REVOLUTION!11!” in a crowded hall – or online – will not magically make revolution happen.

    ETA: Or what Elizabelle said.

  233. 233
    StringOnAStick says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nancy is a fabulous behind the scenes pol,but unfortunately is not that good at sound bites. That’s surprising, considering how excellent she is at the behind the scenes stuff (Schumer just sucks in all areas IMHO). It is possible that she did this impeachment tut tutting previously to keep the demented psychotic in chief less panicky, for good of the country.

    She knows that tRump and FOX have a pathological fixation on her, which I think she tries to use to advantage. By being the face of “he’s not worth it”, she’s deflecting/managing their responses while behind the scenes there is heavy investigation going on by the D’s. I think she’s strategic enough to keep these bulls distracted with a lot of red flag waving, but the sword is in there, hidden but getting sharper by the day. We foot soldiers don’t know the inside scoop on this because strategy is best kept secret in order to be most effective. It sucks but it’s the way it is; I think she is well aware of just what a dangerous time this is and that requires doing a one handed puppet show while the other hand is working hard behind the scenes.

  234. 234
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @plato: It means that the person saying it thinks that the thing would be difficult. There are a lot of thing worth doing that are difficult.

  235. 235
    Aleta says:

    We’re sailing in bad winds and weather. Nearly constant course correction; we expect that but it’s tiring. No matter how often and how well, it doesn’t change the fact that what we’re doing is sailing.

  236. 236
    Elizabelle says:

    @StringOnAStick: Good points, all.

  237. 237
    Aleta says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for all the great Bronks this morning.

  238. 238
    plato says:

    @Elizabelle: What lobbing potshots? Who is demeaning Nancy? Asking for impeachment motion is none of these. After the 2018 stunning wins, the dems have been steadily losing ground and fights despite rising atrocities from the totus thug regime by the congressional inaction. That is the perception outside bj bubble.

  239. 239
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Aleta: You are confusing me with someone else.

  240. 240

    @plato: IIRC didn’t you say you lived in Chennai? I find your level of interest in Democratic politics intriguing.

  241. 241
    Aleta says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: yeah, as you must have figured I mean OH. thx.

  242. 242
    plato says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes and my interest in US politics predates totus thug to Obama primaries. What of it?

  243. 243
    Elizabelle says:

    @Aleta: Metaphorical, or you actually are out on the waters? (And lucky you, if so.)

    And I will take sailing over sinking, any day.

  244. 244
    Chris Johnson says:

    @plato: _an_ impeachment motion. _AN_ impeachment motion. _The_ bj bubble.

    Phrasing things like ‘asking for impeachment motion’ and ‘that is the perception outside bj bubble’ while also saying the dems are losing ground and everyone in America outside Balloon Juice thinks so, makes you sound like a soldier for another country doing your cheeto-encrusted job while not being a natural English speaker. Kinda like that other fellow here who put on a really startling cornpone dialect that was all kinds of weird and unsettling.

    I mean, assuming it’s a real thing that Russia has gone to war against us on the internets and thrown soldiers into even the most trivial and curmudgeonly of blogs. I suppose one might argue that it’s a big hoax and Russia never tried to swing the election through internet means at all, or that it was one and done and they’re not still all over the freaking place and colonizing the media and working their little tails off and ramping up for another major, major push. Oh wait, there was just some kind of hearing about that, but nobody paid attention because it was boring.

    You’re not an A-level troll in these parts, plato. Can’t prove what you are, but up your game if you intend to be effective.

  245. 245
    The Moar You Know says:

    For my last colonoscopy, I insisted on not getting any memory wiping drugs like Versed because of a horrible effect they’d had on my mother when they sedated her once.

    @Fair Economist: I have the opposite issue: you can give me as much of that crap as you want. I’ll be aware of everything (I will babble) and I’ll remember it all. And I’ll feel everything as well. The guys who did my colonoscopy were stunned. My mother, turns out, has the same issue.

    This is one reason why it’s a really bad component of the three-drug death penalty “cocktail” – it flat out does not work on some people, enough that there’s a medical term for them. The idea of being absolutely paralyzed (pancurium bromide) and then injected with the most horrifically painful substance you can give any living being with a circulatory system (potassium chloride) and be totally aware and feel it all is the stuff of nightmares.

  246. 246
    dww44 says:

    @rikyrah: The only sure way to do that is to get out and register folks now and then make sure one’s State elections office doesn’t sit on these registrations without processing or rejecting for nitpicky reasons. Since I live in Ga, I know about these matters.

    @Kay: from Kay’s mouth to Democratic leadership’s ears;indeed to all Democratic congresspersons. Seriously, Kay, your comments are so on-point and helpful and, imo, you should be on speed-dial with Democratic political leadership. Thank you for your on the ground wisdom.

  247. 247
    Kay says:


    One of the things that marks a professional is knowing what cannot be done.

    Oh, great. Tell them that. How is this different than “nothing can be done”?

    They’re not impeaching. Fine. What can they do? Do. Achieve. What can they file, set for hearing, hold a press conference about, etc.
    You can’t just tell your base “we can’t do anything and media hates us”. They already know media hates them. It is not their FAULT but it is their PROBLEM. Just take “blame” out of this, because it’s not helpful. I’ll stipulate. This is Republicans fault. Now what?

  248. 248
    plato says:

    @Chris Johnson: LOL. Such a long tirade to call me a russian troll?

  249. 249
    Kay says:


    Here’s a specific question. Did or do they have a plan for post-Mueller appearance past the press conference yesterday? They better have. Call your next fucking witness. They can’t be three months apart.

    Did they have a plan after Cohen? He was the one prior to Mueller.

  250. 250
    Raven says:

    @ola azul: Hey, got my rig trip out of Venice booked for later September!!!

  251. 251
    apocalipstick says:

    @Jinchi: We vote for the House every two years. Pelosi leads 1/2 of the legislative branch. It is our job to do this. We are the citizens; ultimate power, authority, and responsibility rest with us.

    But it’s more cathartic to get shouty on the internet.

  252. 252
    dww44 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Perhaps a Go-fund Me to hire lawyers for Congressional investigations? Or, is it possible for Congressional Democratic committee leaders, etc to operate in a deficit? After all Trump just gave 16 billion dollars of taxpayer monies to help out farmers who got hurt by his tariffs.

  253. 253
    rp says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Exactly. I wish she would appoint someone like Schiff as the lead for all Trump investigations related stuff, and just defer to him every time someone asked her about it. And that’s one more reason why it would be good to have special committee coordinating this stuff instead of having it spread out among 20 different ones.

  254. 254
    James E Powell says:


    It starts to sound like we’re telling people over and over what we can’t do, which is just the kiss of death if you want enthusiasm and engagement, and I think you do!

    As is often the case with Kay, I agree completely. The people who are the activists, the volunteers, and the guaranteed to vote are always going to be more extreme, more ardent, than the average voter. The Democratic leadership has a habit of demoralizing these people who are base or potential base voters. This is something the Republicans never do.

    The Republicans have never said, for example, look, a complete ban on abortions is just not realistic. We have to take steps that reduce abortions, the ones we can get the votes on. They never say, the supreme court has ruled on school prayer and it’s time we moved on to addressing the issues that Americans care about like trade policy and income tax reform.

  255. 255
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: Do you really think there is nothing going on, that Democratic leadership does not have a plan and activities underway?

  256. 256
    The Moar You Know says:

    Also, this blog is rapidly becoming tedious bullshit. I know the regulars, this is my 11th year posting here (I can’t quit you!). They’re making about half the comments these days on a good day. The rest are a bunch of long-dormant sockpuppet accounts I see come to life every election cycle and about 3-5 hopefully paid “employees” of the Internet Research Labs or whatever the fuck Vlad’s calling it this week.

    I know Cole has resisted moderation of any sort for years and I have long thought that to be good practice but, at long last, it’s not working anymore. Fix your fucking blog, Cole. You’re giving the bad actors a platform and letting them do the very shit you bitch at the Republicans for allowing in 2016, 2018, and soon enough, 2020.

  257. 257
    Kay says:


    Is there a designated group of people who work on, say, the tax returns? Or is that just the AG of NY’s job now? This is essentially litigation. That’s what it most closely resembles. They need discovery and they need hearings- to act both as hearings and essentially as depositions- and they need a plan. Okay, they need like 12 plans for each issue and then an overall plan. I expect them to do this! I don’t think it’s impossible. Let’s just take Conway. She’s in contempt. So how does she fit into the Trump Administration section of the plan and then the overall plan?

    Corruption, then people and things. That’s one section. I suggest corruption be top tier, but that’s debatable.

  258. 258
    apocalipstick says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Smith is your rep as well? I heard him deliver a speech last year when he referred to a less-severe-than-expected snowstorm as a “fake news forecast”. Yeesh.

    In my defense, I was there as a captive audience.

  259. 259
    Miss Bianca says:


    IIRC didn’t you say you lived in Chennai? I find your level of interest in Democratic politics intriguing.

    Or even, as Mr. Spock might say…“fascinating”.

  260. 260
    Baud says:

    @James E Powell:

    By the same taken, Republican activists are saying “Trump hasn’t locked her up yet, so he’s a failure.”

    It would be one thing of the Dems were not doing anything. But they’re doing plenty but it’s deemed not good enough. I don’t think there’s a way out of that problem. I think it’s culturally embedded.

  261. 261
    Kay says:


    I don’t know. A smart thing to do would be to let the base in on it, if it exists. Why in God’s name would they NOT?

    People are dying to support them. D enthusiasm is much higher than Trumpsters. Give them something to support! Is it a secret plan?

  262. 262
    ola azul says:


    Ho there, Raven. Get you an AJ yet, ya? Be inerested to hear the Red Barber upon your return. (My friend’s boat is called the Amberjack, funnily enough. She just parted her anchor at the thimble, so lost it at Bird Island — St. Lazaria, volcanic with a sheer face on southwest side, looks like King Kong’s island, kinda — and I just got back from a week in Mich. for a dear friend’s funeral; hadda spare Fjorford No. 4 in locker with boom chain onnit, so give it to her to get her going again.)

    Prolly gonna lose recep shortly; heading out for grounds offa Cape Edgecumbe; was waiting on my wayward deckhand, who is gotta summer fling going and just emerged from his love nest, the lucky bastard. But, I figure if the kid’ll wait a week for me to pay my respects to my friend’s friends and family, the very least I can do is give him room according to his strength.

  263. 263
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: Believe Nadler is going after tax returns?

    I know he’s got a case before the courts to compel reluctant White House-affiliated witnesses to testify (McGahn, etc.) It would seem that if McGahn could be compelled to testify, so could Kellyanne Conway.

  264. 264
    James E Powell says:


    Can you recall a time in the last 30 years that the Democratic congressional leadership had a plan?

  265. 265
    plato says:

    @Miss Bianca: As fascinating as you and other american bj’ers ‘discussing’ other countries’ politics here all the time? Judgmental hypocrisy too much?

    Never mind. I am outta here.

  266. 266
    apocalipstick says:

    @Butter emails!!!: Good time to mention Senate trends: 55% of the public could howl for removal and the Senate could acquit without costing a single member their seat.

    Personally, I don’t think McConnell would even hold the trial.

  267. 267
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @plato: GBCW? If so, you really should have had more flounce.

  268. 268
    Elizabelle says:

    @James E Powell: Do you know that they don’t?

    I kinda remember Nancy Pelosi and company getting ACA through. Also the Lily Ledbetter equal pay legislation. I don’t think they just wake up in the morning and stick a finger in the wind. “What can we do to demoralize our base today?”

  269. 269


    Is there a designated group of people who work on, say, the tax returns?

    Yes. It is in the courts right now.

  270. 270
    Jinchi says:

    @The Moar You Know: You know what the moniker of this blog refers to, right?

  271. 271
    Kay says:

    Dave Weigel
    ·Imagining the Fox chyrons if a rapper got arrested for assault in Sweden, Obama had lobbied for his release, and Sweden had said “lol no”

    There are daily “if this were Obama..” things but this one is just amazing.

    Anyone who still says Obama’s presidency wasn’t seen thru the lens of “he’s BLACK” by media is just a flat out liar. Mainstream, conventional media. Not just Fox.

    I always hope we get good, rigorous historical record-type analysis in upcoming decades because it is going to be WILD in hindsight, and a LOT of people are going to look terrible to future generations.

    I thought about it with birtherism. I imagine the paragraph in a 6th grade government textbook in 2050. I hope there are photos of the perpetrators!

  272. 272
    apocalipstick says:

    @ola azul: There wasn’t much bootstrap promise for poor whites, but there was the assurance that they would never be the bottom rail in the fence: black folks would always have to step off the sidewalk.

  273. 273
    Aleta says:

    @Elizabelle: : ) metaphorical … not on the water rt now, only get a chance to sail about 1-2x a year, and when I do I’m never in charge. trying to find a way to take heart despite the political situation …

  274. 274
    Kay says:


    Believe Nadler is going after tax returns?

    Oh, no. I think he’s terrible. It’s counterintuitive but the people who know Trump best are the least effective regarding him. Nadler, Schumer, the NYTimes. There’s something wrong with them. He disarms or captures them in some way. I feel like it’s parochial- tied to THAT PLACE where he came up. Get like the California people. Use them.

    I’ll stop now, Elizabelle. In organizing-speak it would be good that I get het up because that means I feel “ownership” :)

  275. 275
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: I like what I have seen of Nadler. He seems effective.

    Also would guess that a LOT of congressional entities have gone after the tax returns. Very possible some Californians are in the mix. The intelligence committees might have a real interest in the matter. I dunno.

    Better to be het up than demoralized!

    @Aleta: I know. We all have got to pace ourselves, and look for the small pleasures in our own lives, too. Step away from the constantly criticizing (and often false) news. Pay attention selectively. Take up some new pursuits.

    So we have the energy to fight. It’s a marathon.

  276. 276
    J R in WV says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Since we’re talking off topic some, I saw my family doc for annual physical on Monday. So I had a couple of hours with an RN running tests and asking me questions. She went through my file (the whole file is over a foot thick, I’ve been seeing Doc Bill for nearly 40 years) and says your last colonoscopy was done by Dr X, he’s in jail now.” I recall the scandal, he was molesting patients on his table. But I’m bad with names… it was odd, there was only him and one nurse who did the anesthesia.

    Pretty sure he wouldn’t have molested a fat old hairy guy, but you never know I guess. I wouldn’t know, I was out like a light. Serving 1 to 5 after the jury convicted him…

  277. 277
    Miss Bianca says:


    As fascinating as you and other american bj’ers ‘discussing’ other countries’ politics here all the time? Judgmental hypocrisy too much?

    Let’s see, the number of times on this blog that I have hectored Indian citizens and politicians on how they ought to be politicking is…*checks notes*…wow, never!

    Never mind. I am outta here.

    Oh, don’t tease us like that!

  278. 278
    Aleta says:

    @ola azul: Have a good trip. Although you know this better than I, I’ll say it anyway. With jet stream changes and all, there may be less leeway for taking chances that usually work out OK. It could be that our habits/knowledge of what we can usually squeak through (esp water and wind and waves (and ice)) can’t be counted on anymore. Hard thing to change though.

  279. 279
    StringOnAStick says:

    @The Moar You Know: I have a friend who gets zero effect from Versed, she found that out when they were trying to reduce her badly fractured wrist. It required surgery a d afterwards the anesthesiologist apologized be the didn’t realize it didn’t work on her after she both told them and could point to it in her records from the ER. Make sure you have this information officially written up and readily available in case you really need it!

  280. 280
    StringOnAStick says:

    @Aleta: Funny you should bring up that we can’t fully trust past experience anymore with weather issues. My husband and I are serious back country skiers who play it extremely safe here. We also go to Canadian backcountry lodges every year, until recently. Family stuff meant we took 2 years off, went again this year to a place new to us and had the guide get us into a situation where the slope collapsed and I was sure we were all about to die in an avalanche. We didn’t but that’s the closest we’ve ever been to that. This is long way of saying that this changing weather and climate is going to require always seeing things with beginners eyes even if it’s a place or slope you skied hundreds of times before. The Canadian interior snow pack has been seen as much more stable than we get here in CO; I’m of the opinion that this has been changing along with climate change.

    One result of that trip last January is I finally had to admit I needed knee replacements if I wanted to ski again; yesterday was 3 weeks from getting the second one done. Back to work next week, which is once going to suck donkey balls because I am on my feet or sitting with my leg down doing dental hygiene for 8 hours straight. Yuck. If stay out longer but temps are really hard to get in the summer.

  281. 281
    J R in WV says:


    ” Does anyone on the left silence themselves because they don’t want to piss off Baud. I don’t think so.”

    In fact, some comment more just to piss off the Baud. Not I, but some. Well, maybe me once or twice…

  282. 282
    Aleta says:

    @StringOnAStick: You know, I wondered about that this year for some who were caught in avalanches. I know cc is causing more avalanches, but I also wondered if in those incidents the people were following accumulated knowledge/risk evaluation that used to mostly work. But now we haven’t adjusted to higher risks in certain places or conditions that we’re became so used to ‘knowing’, that it became like integrated sensing and thought.

    Even the newly increased speed of storm development or movement. My parents used to call it ‘weather sense’ — looking at clouds and wind and having a feel, from experience in an area, for when a system would arrive, or how much time we had before we had to paddle home.

    Glad you made it out OK. I’d like to hear about how it goes with your knee and skiing (or other outdoor activities) when you know. . We just xc now and don’t want to give it up. Good luck with the healing; hope your return to easy movement is soon.

  283. 283
    Aleta says:

    @Aleta: “increased speed of storm development or movement”.

    not always increased — some storm movement is also slower, because the temperature gradient has changed between poles and equator. That’s creating a lot of weird weather. Even some climate people say they aren’t sure yet what’s going on from the gradient changes.

  284. 284
    J R in WV says:

    @ola azul:

    I agree with this long but well put together comment almost totally.

    Thanks for putting it together. I’m usually too angry to put more than a couple of ‘grafs together!

  285. 285
    debbie says:

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    I know you’re long gone, but your second point is even more absurd, considering the show is based in New York. The three stick reference to (I think) Gotti has been common knowledge for decades.

  286. 286
    J R in WV says:


    Never mind. I am outta here.

    Praise Shiva!!!

  287. 287
    Elizabelle says:

    @ola azul: Yeah, that is a good comment. More good points.

Comments are closed.