Open Thread: The “Wedge Issue” of Torturing Children

The poll first informed respondents of this: “There have been news reports of unsafe and unsanitary conditions for children held in detention at the border. Children have been reported to be without toothbrushes, soap, and blankets, and older children are reportedly caring for babies they don’t know.”

Then the poll asked for respondents’ views. And it found that 68 percent support this statement: “These are unacceptable conditions that need to be fixed immediately so children have a safe environment. Our government should not treat children this way.”

By contrast, only 32 percent supported this statement: “These are not our children, and they should not have come or been brought here. The government is doing all that it needs to be doing.”…

The question is framed starkly. The lead-in paints an arresting — though accurate — picture, and the second view negatively describes the children as not ours, and adopts a deliberately callous expression of how our government should be treating them.

But Alissa Stollwerk, the director of YouGov Blue, tells me that this is precisely the point — to test how voters view the more callous framing, in contrast with the more sympathetic one, in part because the former is the kind of rhetoric you hear on Fox News…

By the way, more neutrally worded polling by CNN found a similar divide: Large majorities of Americans, including of independents, favor allowing Central American refugees to apply for asylum, while large majorities of Republicans oppose it…

The government’s intention, it would seem, is to force more immigrants into substandard conditions, ‘temporary’ hotels at best and prison camps at worst. The agents tasked with this should feel bad about it; the ones that don’t are the ones we all need to worry about.

[Disturbing images below the fold]

(Mike Luckovich via GoComics.com)
.

RIP, Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez and baby Valeria…

Didn’t find a space to share this thread when it first appeared, but it’s important:

(Nick Anderson via GoComics.com)
.

(John Deering via GoComics.com)
.






63 replies
  1. 1
    Raoul says:

    The thing is, Republicans (voters as well as electeds) have been mean and nasty to all sorts of out groups for at least as long as my 53 years on this earth (longer, I’m sure).

    Fox may amplify some things, but really its mostly just the mask coming off.

    ReplyReply
  2. 2
    Jerzy Russian says:

    Jesus, I’ve got nothing.

    ReplyReply
  3. 3
  4. 4
    Ohio Mom says:

    I’m thinking we can safely assume that those who agree that the children aren’t ours and the government is doing what needs to be done also identify proudly as pro-lifers.

    ReplyReply
  5. 5
    Joe Falco says:

    I’ve already had to argue with one pos on the local news website about migrant children being caged. His response: It’s tragic but they shouldn’t have come here. Even after arguing back and forth, the guy had the audacity to say God bless afterwards. These so-called Christians are outing themselves everyday for what they really are: cruel and heartless people who use their religion as a cudgel towards everyone and as their shield when they’re criticized or denied what they want. They have exactly the president they want because he makes it ok to be as ugly as possible towards anyone that’s not like them. To hell with each and every last one of them.

    I’m making plans to attend the rally in Athens tomorrow night to protest the concentration camps. Is anybody else going to one?

    ReplyReply
  6. 6
    The Dangerman says:

    Remember, assuming no cheating (I know, I know), Demographics spell doom for those fuckers (good riddance to bad rubes).

    ReplyReply
  7. 7
    laura says:

    @Joe Falco: These so-called Christian’s would line up and pay to nail Jesus to the cross.

    ReplyReply
  8. 8
    lamh36 says:

    .@KamalaHarris on Donald Trump Jr. joining in on the conspiracy theory she’s not really black:

    “I have to be candid with you — I was not surprised. And I found it really uninteresting.”

    #KamalaMaddow

    .@KamalaHarris on @realDonaldTrump: “He has failed to perform.”

    #kamalamaddow

    I see what u did there Kamala

    ReplyReply
  9. 9
    cain says:

    How about this poll:
    “If your child’s life was endangered in any way, would you do everything in your power including leaving the country to protect them?”

    The difference with Republican/conservative/christian voters is that they are entitled to believe that they can head to either border north or south and believe they should have entry and without consequence if they ask for asylum.

    ReplyReply
  10. 10
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    60% of Republicans agree with this statement on migrant kids:

    “These are not our children, and they should not have come or been brought here. The government is doing all that it needs to be doing.”

    I keep saying, and thinking to myself, that I am not a violent person. But JFC, this makes me want to KILL.

    Sorry, TenguPhule, you can’t even keep up with my murderous rage.

    ReplyReply
  11. 11
    lamh36 says:

    Good night BJ.

    Off to ends, but first a rant …

    Ugh…worse thing about working in healthcare, esp hosptial or emergency services is that during disaster prep…many wait until the last darn minute to declare inclimate weather and activate disaster teams.

    My job is a hospital, but the lab is managed by a national lab company. They had a meeting today about the coming activity (now Tropical Storm Barry) and no emergency was declared.

    Expected landfall if TS does become a hurricane is Friday night early Saturday…unless and until they activate emergency preparedness plan if you are scheduled to work…you have to work.

    SMH…I already know these folks gonna wait until late tomorrow and if folks want to evacuate we gon be stuck in the damn traffice heading out in the darn storm and rain

    ReplyReply
  12. 12
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    off topic, to lighten up this heavy evening: Middle-aged man sort of running for president feels the need to assure us he was totally cool* in college

    Edward-Isaac Dovere @ IsaacDovere
    -Did you know Buttigieg in college?
    Moulton: “No. I think we hung out with different groups of friends. Not at all, I was not hanging out w/the Harvard Dems.”
    -What was your friend group like?
    A: “Athletes. People who went out
    & you know, had a good time”

    * am I over-interpreting if I add in “and totally hetero”?

    ReplyReply
  13. 13
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Please come out tomorrow to protest the mistreatment of asylum seekers.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/2019/07/11/lights-for-liberty-vigil-july-12/amp/

    I hope we are so numerous that the media can’t ignore us. It’s important to let this regime know that the majority do not support their inhumanity.

    ReplyReply
  14. 14
    NickM says:

    I think it’s more a matter of never even thinking that asylum might be something they might personally need. Which, the way things are going, is not necessary the safest assumption.

    ReplyReply
  15. 15
    plato says:

    Can never get rid that innate racist DNA from the butthole country.

    ReplyReply
  16. 16
    Mandalay says:

    @Joe Falco:

    I’ve already had to argue with one pos on the local news website…

    Don’t go there. They can be sewers of absolute hatred, far worse than national sites like FoxNews and Breitbart.

    There is a ton of bile in middle America, and it’s on open display in the comments sections of local media web sites. I suspect part of the problem is that that those sites are policed less carefully than the big RWNJ sites, but there is also a disconcerting lack of guile on display. Some folks post with their real names, and it doesn’t seem to occur to them that their sicKKK views might be controversial, or that anonymity might be a good idea.

    ReplyReply
  17. 17
    Raoul says:

    @Joe Falco: “I’m making plans to attend the rally in Athens tomorrow night to protest the concentration camps. Is anybody else going to one?”

    Three of us are deciding between two options in Colorado. Will definitely go to one of ’em. This country is in a bad spot, but more than half of us are decent people. It is incumbent on us to show up, to see that decency prevails.

    ReplyReply
  18. 18
    jl says:

    Disturbing numbers in the GOP ranks. But over 90 percent of Democrats and about 60 percent of independents think the treatment is unacceptable. So, not an issue where any ‘understanding outreach’ to GOP is needed. Attempts to persuade them that they are monstrously wrong, yes. But I can’t think of anything else at the moment.

    OK with me if this is some edge issue.

    ReplyReply
  19. 19
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    I’m thinking we can safely assume that those who agree that the children aren’t ours and the government is doing what needs to be done also identify proudly as pro-lifers

    No doubt they do. Being “pro-life” ends at birth after all.

    I think it was David Simon that tweeted that we are a shithole country.

    ReplyReply
  20. 20

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Sorry, TenguPhule, you can’t even keep up with my murderous rage.

    You are, after all, a mob enforcer.

    ReplyReply
  21. 21
    Martin says:

    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

    It is through this statement that we draw parallels to the Nazis. Democrats aren’t free and clear on this by any means, but to their credit they consistently move away from this concept and offer alternatives. My disappointment with a lot of CA liberals is that they embrace this concept on issues like housing – that their property values must be protected at all costs, even if requires others being homeless.

    ReplyReply
  22. 22
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Joe Falco:

    I’m making plans to attend the rally in Athens tomorrow night to protest the concentration camps. Is anybody else going to one?

    Yes. I have organized one with my team. It’s a lot of work, especially at short notice, but I’m glad we’re doing it. The facebook and other non-scientific responses suggest we’ll have a good turnout. Based on the discussions on BJ today, I’d like to suggest that folks get away from the intertubes and do some real-life organizing instead. It’s tough but energizing, and you have a chance of making a difference.

    ETA: You can see if there’s a vigil near you here: https://www.lightsforliberty.org/localevents

    ReplyReply
  23. 23
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    * am I over-interpreting if I add in “and totally hetero”?

    Yes, I think you are. I know it is the in thing here to bag on Moulton. AL keeps suggesting that he is actually a New England liberal Republican of a kind that hasn’t existed since around the time I was born. Taking a shot at Pelosi was a dumbass move, but I have a couple of good friends from college who live in his district and have nothing but good things to say about him. One is a solid establishment Dem who was in the higher levels of Obama’s State Department and the other is a lefty who would have been a Bernie Bro if he didn’t have more sense. I wonder how much the internet hothouse affects our views.

    ReplyReply
  24. 24
    Jay says:

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

    ReplyReply
  25. 25
    Mandalay says:

    A NYT article on Epstein discussing his plea for bail contains the following:
    – Three references to “underage girls”. (How can any “girl” not automatically be “underage”?)
    – One reference to an “underaged woman”. (How can any “woman” be “underage”?)
    – No references at all to the words “child” or “children”.

    I guess the author didn’t want to any use offensive terms for child molestation.

    ReplyReply
  26. 26
    Another Scott says:

    I don’t know if people have seen the 1972 ITN video of the Trang Bang attack. You can see her run by and see a glimpse of a photographer (apparently Nick) taking pictures. And see people trying to help her.

    The still is powerful, but the video even moreso.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6exbI9UCcGI&has_verified=1 (1:32).

    War is a terrible, terrible thing. And civilians fleeing war and horrific crime is also.

    Good night, everyone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  27. 27
    catdevotee says:

    There’s a candlelight vigil tomorrow even in my tiny coastal town in Oregon. Our county is deep red, but we have a very active group of more forward-thinking people. No doubt there will be a few pickup trucks driving by yelling at us, but that just adds to the sense of solidarity.

    ReplyReply
  28. 28
    sdhays says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t spend any time thinking about Moulton, whether to mock him or otherwise, but he’s the one making a fool of himself. His run at Pelosi wasn’t merely stupid, it was pathetic. And then he has the audacity to follow up that national face plant by announcing that he thinks he should be President.

    These guys who are running for no apparent reason other than “why not me” are irritating. They should go back to being decent Congressmen or NYC mayor. I hear those are important jobs.

    ReplyReply
  29. 29
    Neldob says:

    @Joe Falco: it’s good to be a reality check and for them to know honorable people disagree and why.

    ReplyReply
  30. 30
    plato says:

    wingnuts welfare, brazilian style

    Jair Bolsonaro, the far-right president of Brazil, has invited his son to become ambassador to the US.

    Eduardo Bolsonaro, 35, who is currently serving as a congressman and advises his father on foreign affairs, told reporters he would accept the post if it were offered.

    The position of ambassador has been vacant since April.

    Mr Bolsonaro was elected last year after a successful campaign he said had been inspired by Donald Trump.

    ReplyReply
  31. 31
    jonas says:

    Speaking of people who “shouldn’t have come here,” It would have been helpful to have had some jackbooted thugs turn away whatever immigrant ancestors spawned these awful fascist assholes populating the current Republican party. Starting with one Friedrich Trump.

    ReplyReply
  32. 32
    jonas says:

    @jl: Just goes to show I think how really all that’s left of self-identified Republicans these days are those truly irredeemable deplorables. How can you look at those camps and go “Yeah, fuck ’em.”?

    ReplyReply
  33. 33
    Jackie says:

    I have finally reached the stage of having to step away from the news and blogs. I just can’t anymore. For now. I will be back, but family and my need for family mandates a break from all “this.”

    ReplyReply
  34. 34
    Bonnie says:

    For the so-called Christians:
    Jeremiah 22:3 King James Version (KJV)

    3 Thus saith the Lord; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

    Isaiah 5:20 King James Version (KJV)

    20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    Colossians 3:13 King James Version (KJV)

    13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

    ReplyReply
  35. 35
    Suzanne says:

    These are not our children

    There’s no such thing as “someone else’s children”.
    It takes everyone working together to make a safe and prosperous world for all children.
    Or, as a very wise woman once wrote, “It takes a village to raise a child”.

    ReplyReply
  36. 36
    James E Powell says:

    @Joe Falco:

    I’m making plans to attend the rally in Athens tomorrow night to protest the concentration camps. Is anybody else going to one?

    I will be going to one of the several choices, but I haven’t yet made up my mind. If any jackals are going to the San Diego, Temecula, or San Bernardino, let me know. We can do a Protest Meet Up! I could probably be talked into Santa Ana or Irvine.

    ReplyReply
  37. 37
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @lamh36: heheh I am liking the cut of her gibberish more and more every day

    ReplyReply
  38. 38
    cain says:

    @catdevotee:
    More power to you. Take pictures and show solidarity. Maybe link to the pictures? I want people to know that even small town America is filled with wonderful people.

    ReplyReply
  39. 39
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    heheh I am liking the cut of her gibberish more and more every day

    ????

    ReplyReply
  40. 40
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Another commenter undone by autocorrect.

    ReplyReply
  41. 41
    Heywood J. says:

    @mrmoshpotato:

    I think it was David Simon that tweeted that we are a shithole country.

    I’ve always appreciated Simon’s optimism and sense of whimsy. This whole episode is a tragic reminder that when we observe politicians who are genuinely horrible, malicious human beings, they’re usually a pretty accurate reflection of their constituencies. They didn’t get into office by accident.

    ReplyReply
  42. 42
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Joe Falco:

    I have to figure out if I have time to go. Tomorrow night is my long-awaited appointment for a sleep study so I can FINALLY get the CPAP machine that my HMO has been dragging their feet about. The one nearest me runs from 6:30 to 9:30 with speakers from 7 to 8.

    ReplyReply
  43. 43
    Suzanne says:

    Oh, and I will not be going to any rallies or protests, as I still must stay close to Spawn the Youngest and it is really fucken hot. Mr. Suzanne and I are making a donation in Youngest’s name to RAICES.

    ReplyReply
  44. 44

    @Mnemosyne:

    with speakers from 7 to 8

    What do they talk about, probably how bad Nancy Pelosi is at her job.

    ReplyReply
  45. 45
    scott (the other one) says:

    For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

    ReplyReply
  46. 46
    Amir Khalid says:

    @jonas:
    Friedrich Trump, who emigrated to America to evade military service? Yes, he should have been kept out.

    ReplyReply
  47. 47
    James E Powell says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    That’s cold, Bill.

    ReplyReply
  48. 48

    @James E Powell: Seems that was the topic of the day.

    ReplyReply
  49. 49

    @Amir Khalid: Not only did ol’ Friedrich come here to avoid military service(seems to be a family tradition), but he wanted to go back.

    ReplyReply
  50. 50
    opiejeanne says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: And they didn’t want him back, and made it clear that they didn’t want him back.

    ReplyReply
  51. 51
    Ruckus says:

    People have always been horrible to each other. Especially if they are not connected in some way – other than just existing as humans. But some see it as their duty to humanity to be utter assholes, to actually hate anyone who doesn’t look like them, speak like them, worship like them, live near them for some unspecified length of time. The concept that we shouldn’t be like this is an old story but one with a new meaning as the world becomes more crowed and the assholes become more convinced that they are losing. Which they are. They won’t go easy, because they are assholes. They will take victims with them, because they are assholes. Our president may be a chickenshit asshole who can only do things through proxies but there are enough of them to make a mess before they go. History is replete with assholes like him and many that are far worse. They always have a following of fellow assholes. We won’t change the world completely in the lifetimes of anyone alive, there will always be assholes. But we have to change, change the structure of the world or surly we will not improve life for many. We have to see that money is not the end all be all of life. That the color of skin is a variable that only means the skin is a different shade of skin. We are all the same under this skin suit, and only the shade of color is different. Our brains are capable of learning, some better and some easier than others but we are all capable of it. But we have to want to learn, we have to want to respect others that don’t look like us, or talk like us, or worship, or not. That is the premise of this country, it was a far different concept than the norm when it happened over 200 yrs ago and it had flaws in it’s execution. It still does today. It is all of our jobs to work to overcome those flaws, to work together to make it better, not worse. We will fail with some attempts at this, it will often not look like progress but massive regression but it is a premise that can work and we owe it to those who came before us and tried and often succeeded at making it better. And we owe it to those who will come after us.
    I’ll put my soap box away and let myself out.

    ReplyReply
  52. 52
    Mnemosyne says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    It’s at Bob Hope Park, so who knows?

    ReplyReply
  53. 53
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    “These are not our children, and they should not have come or been brought here. The government is doing all that it needs to be doing.”

    I think it needs to be said more often, there is nothing illegal in crossing a border to apply for asylum. Refugees are not “illegals”.

    The US is a signatory to the UN Convention on Refugees. As such, candidate refugees are permitted to cross the border and report at the earliest opportunity to the nearest available authority for protection and processing under that treaty. They are not required to pass through approved checkpoints, only to present themselves to an approved authority.

    In case anybody thinks I’m trying for the high moral ground here, my country has done and is doing worse to refugees. Trump has stated that he finds the Australian way of dealing with refugees inspiring. It is truly dispiriting that we have just elected these vicious mongrels for yet another three year term.

    ReplyReply
  54. 54
    Arclite says:

    I got a hankering to listen to that old George W. Bush parody rap song “I got high.”

    However, I can’t find it anywhere in the googles. Anyone have a link?

    ReplyReply
  55. 55
  56. 56
    rikyrah says:

    There is no common ground with these people. I have no interest in finding any with them 😠😠

    ReplyReply
  57. 57
    rikyrah says:

    @Joe Falco:
    They are outing themselves. Fake azz Christians😠

    ReplyReply
  58. 58
    rikyrah says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:
    The United States wrote the rules on asylum..

    FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD😠😠😠

    ReplyReply
  59. 59
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @rikyrah: Not really the case. The fundamental documents defining refugee status and setting the rules governing their treatment are the 1951 UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees. One hundred eighteen countries signed the Convention; the US was not one of them. The US did sign the Protocol and thus became bound by the Convention and Protocol when it ratified the ratified the Protocol in 1968. In 1980, Congress passed the 1980 Refugee Act which amended the Immigration and Naturalization Act to bring it into compliance with the US’s international obligations.*

    *I pulled this from the law review article I wrote in the legality of interdicting refugees at sea. I can’t link it without doxxing myself.

    ReplyReply
  60. 60
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    law review article I wrote on the legality

    ReplyReply
  61. 61
    Another Scott says:

    @scott (the other one): That’s just crazy talk. What are you, some kind of communist or something??!!

    (sigh)

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Don’t you know, “Jesus wants you to be rich!!”)

    ReplyReply
  62. 62
    Another Scott says:

    @Viva BrisVegas: +1

    Everything Donnie says is a lie.

    “People will just believe you. You just tell them and they believe you,”

    (sigh)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  63. 63
    J R in WV says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The US did sign the Protocol [1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees] and thus became bound by the Convention and Protocol when it ratified the … Protocol in 1968. In 1980, Congress passed the 1980 Refugee Act which amended the Immigration and Naturalization Act to bring it into compliance with the US’s international obligations.

    Thanks for the legal details on when and how we legalized refugees entering the country.

    I assume then from what you wrote that I quoted here that what was said just above your comment here by
    @Viva BrisVegas

    As such, candidate refugees are permitted to cross the border and report at the earliest opportunity to the nearest available authority for protection and processing under that treaty. They are not required to pass through approved checkpoints, only to present themselves to an approved authority.

    is a pretty accurate statement of the actual law regarding the majority of the people being illegally imprisoned on the southern border of our poor nation. Thanks Viva as well, for spelling out what I have always believed about refugee status on the borders. This is important information that way too many people refuse to accept about the law of our land on our borders. They are NOT illegals.

    ReplyReply

Leave a Comment

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *