I’m laughing because the picture kind of makes it seem like they’re at her funeral. https://t.co/g4U9pE6mNk
— McGruff is a cop (@agraybee) July 5, 2019
It’s going to start shrinking. And in reality it’s already down under ten. It may even be down to four. And one of those four is likely at his ceiling https://t.co/dOhxrKJdML
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) July 5, 2019
There are four presidential candidates who would be credible Senate candidates but refused to run, choosing instead to run for President. According to the RCP average, those four are polling at a combined 4.3%. https://t.co/ZLA7fux9LE
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) July 5, 2019
Williamson’s a novelty, not a candidate — ditto Andrew Yang, who doesn’t have anywhere near Marianne’s fan club to boost him — but it’s time and past time for the bottom tier of See-I’m-A-White-Dude would-bes to sack up and step back. O’Rourke in particular, IMO, has a great opportunity to improve his sagging national status by filming a big public ‘Despite my personal feelings, I have come to the realization that I can best serve our suffering nation by running for the Senate this time’ performance. I’d donate as much as I could afford to him, under those circumstances, and I’m sure I’m not the only non-Texan Democratic voter who feels that way. Swallwell and Bullock and Bennett, ditto, in a minor key — c’mon, dudes, you’ve got your ‘nationally ranked Presidential candidate’ tagline, drop out now before we get too irritated by your pointless quest.
Seth Moulton should also follow his true calling and run in the Republican primaries, with or without Bill Weld on his ticket. As with O’Rourke, I’d actually donate to his/their campaign. Everything retro is extremely “in” right now, so it’s probably time to revive the Sensible Centrist New England Republican, while there are still some political veterans around who remember how that works. Justin Amash is pretty obviously gonna take over the Libertarian slot — libertarians are all about novelty, and Amash has that new-renegade smell — and I have the feeling Moulton and Amash would actually enjoy a dual competition against the Squatter-in-Chief and each other. And so say we all! Let the best dude win!
That would leave Booker, Castro, Gillibrand, and Klobuchar as very solid second-tier / VP candidates… plenty enough for a rousing national dialogue, and not so many as to wear out everyones’ patience / bank account.
You don’t agree? Fight me.
Postscript:
The Miami debates broke the party’s viewership record, reshuffled the primary polls, and kicked off a series of debates on health care, immigration, and segregation.
If a talking head told you that Trump totally nailed it with his “boring” tweet you can go ahead and ignore them.
— Dave Weigel (@daveweigel) July 3, 2019
Another Scott
As
someonezhena gogolia frequently reminds us, Bennet has only one "t".;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
zhena gogolia
Bennet.
zhena gogolia
@Another Scott:
Yeah, you beat me to it.
Bennet, Buttigieg, and Swalwell are adding a lot to the conversation. I would not like to see any of them drop out.
zhena gogolia
@Another Scott:
and Strzok
Plato
Wasn’t Bill Clinton considered dead in water in the ‘polls’ before he became the comeback kid and won?
mrmoshpotato
@Another Scott: @zhena gogolia: @zhena gogolia: Who the fuck is Bennet? Can we winnow the field down to 5 already?
SiubhanDuinne
@Another Scott:
And “Casto” needs an “r”.
Anne Laurie
@Another Scott: If he quits now, will he be able to afford the second one?
dmsilev
As I understand it, while the late-July debate has the same eligibility threshold as the one a week or so ago, the following debates set successively higher bars for qualification, which should help thin the herd a bit.
Plato
Meanwhile,
All the much touted checks and balances are under water now.
zhena gogolia
@mrmoshpotato:
He’s a U.S. Senator from Colorado and an extremely intelligent, well-informed person.
Martin
Well, two of those 4 are at their ceiling – Bernie and Biden. But I think its way too soon to count out some of the others. Things looking solid for Harris and Warren, but lots of time for crisis before Iowa.
zhena gogolia
@zhena gogolia:
I hesitate to mention that his brother is the editor of the NYT editorial page.
Anne Laurie
@SiubhanDuinne: Castro, I like; his name, I’ll correct.
Not gonna sweat spelling on the other dudes until I need to publicly applaud their principled withdrawal(s).
Baud
Benetttt.
zhena gogolia
@Anne Laurie:
If they were women they wouldn’t have to drop out.
Adam L Silverman
@Plato: The judge ordered them into immediate discovery as he’s seen enough, including the President’s remarks this AM, to, as he put in the order, make a judgement that this is also racially motivated to skew the census results and subsequent redistributing in a manner that harms people of color.
ThresherK
@Plato: How many people did he have to pass? I remember there being about four.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
Discovey will be amazing.
Anne Laurie
@zhena gogolia: And if my aunt had wheels, she’d been a bar cart. (Yes, the original formulation was ‘tea cart’, but you have’t met my aunts.)
zhena gogolia
@Anne Laurie:
We’re fighting fascism. We can’t afford to eliminate people on the basis of gender.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
Bullshit. I’m sure Anne Laurie can easily make the case for Williamson and Gabbard to drop out, too. But the entitled white men are not even interesting at this point. If they are so great, they’ll start making a mark. But they better do it before the end of the month. I happen to like Inslee, who I wasn’t much acquainted with until now, quite a bit. But he needs to go if he doesn’t soon catch fire.
Martin
@zhena gogolia: We’re not eliminating them on thee basis of gender. We’re eliminating them on the basis that many voters believe that only a male can beat Trump. Others of us are of the view that a while male will depress Democratic turnout and make Trump re-election more likely.
Betty Cracker
To paraphrase myself from an earlier thread, if our winnowing mechanisms have let Marriane “Surrender Your Fat to God” Williamson slip through to the second debate, it’s time to sack the folks who devised the standard. FFS.
Martin
@geg6: What’s more, there are Senate seats that need winning, and a merciful removal of certain candidates that could contest those seats would be a benefit to the party.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: That’s how I read it too. I am seeing a lot of “Oh the Supreme Court will give Trump what he wants,” but I am finding this order and aspects of the SC decision pointing more toward that the courts are fed up with the game-playing. And not even particularly talented game-playing. Linda Greenhouse’s analysis hasn’t gotten a lot of play, but it looks sound to me.
zhena gogolia
@geg6:
But she didn’t.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Stop trying to rig the primary, DNC establishment lady.
zhena gogolia
@Martin:
If a white male depresses Democratic turnout, then Democrats are idiots and borderline traitors.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Same could be said for anything that depresses turnout.
VeniceRiley
@Plato:
he didn’t even win. He just didn’t lose new Hampshire as badly as was predicted; then on to the south was his wheelhouse and he knew it.
Plato
@ThresherK:
Larouche!!!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
Okay. But I watched the second debate, and I thought that Bennet and Buttigieg made a more impressive showing than Gillibrand. By far. So I see no reason why they should drop out but she shouldn’t.
Baud
I finally saw the first debate on DVR. I think Tim Ryan annoyed me the most.
JPL
@Baud: For those times when one t is not enough.
Jay
@Anne Laurie:
Campaign funds are Campaign funds.
As long as his donors don’t raise a stink, he can use the money raised so far for a Senate Campaign or a Munincipal Animal Welfare Officer Campaign.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Ok, agreed. She should drop out. I don’t see her breaking through.
chris
@Betty Cracker:
And an antivaxxer. Dealbreaker right there IMHO.
Martin
@Betty Cracker: Yeah. I’d like to see the threshold at 5% by the end of summer. The problem is that everyone can get 1% which means that 20% of the vote is tied up in candidates that are non-viable. We assume those preferences would spread evenly, but that’s probably not correct. If those voters favored Castro primarily, we need to reveal that sooner rather than later, because anyone under 5% is at risk of dropping out. I like that everyone gets a chance to be heard. But after debate 2, time to really start to ratchet things up. If you’re still at 1% after 2 debates, 2 more aren’t going to change a whole lot.
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
I’d be okay with Williamson, Yang, Delaney, Hickenlooper, Gillibrand, and Gabbard dropping out. I didn’t really watch the first debate so I have less of an opinion about Ryan or the others in that debate. I was impressed with Swalwell and Bennet in the second debate. Harris is my top choice but I’m trying to stay open to everyone.
Except Bernie.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
I heard him interviewed somewhere on NPR and he wasn’t bad for a moderate — especially compared to Ryan, Moulton, et al.
Baud
https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/a26992483/democratic-candidates-primary-debates-2020-election/
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
And (in his addled mind) guarantee his reelection.
debbie
@Cheryl Rofer:
I’m thinking Trump will try to fire the Supreme Court the week after he fires the Fed.
debbie
@Baud:
Can there be such a thing as too many debates?
Baud
@debbie:
There can be too few or too many, but it’s impossible for the DNC to get it right.
Jay
@Betty Cracker:
The “winniowing” system was ratfucked by a social media campaign by 4chan/8chan/Deplorable/Nazi’s amplified by Russia, using small donations in favour of Yang and Williamson.
The only “practical” system to avoid the system being gamed in that way, is to close out the winnowing system from the public, limit it to Registered National Democratic Party Members, with a sufficient Membership fee, to discourage the trolls, ( $150+).
That of course, supresses public participation, input and interest.
It also leaves the winnowing system wide open to being ratfucked by a whole different class of ratfuckers.
While the 4chan/8chan/Deplorable/Nazi amplified by ratfucking has a significant effect when it’s 24, it’s not enough to get a sandbag cantidate to 8, or 4.
Ken
@zhena gogolia:
Perhaps the Democrats should have a debate, in six months or so when the polling thresholds are above the margin of error[*], where those who were cut ask the questions. It would certainly be more interesting than the usual run of political journalists.
[*] 1%, seriously?
ThresherK
@Plato: Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and forget about LaRouche.
I hate overuse of horseracery, but it’s a lot easier to come back in a field of five than of twenty.
japa21
Here is my fearless prediction. By the end of the year, Castro will be polling higher than either Biden or Sanders (probably Sanders).
plato
bj bubble vs reality.
They will drop when their money drops. Simple.
Amir Khalid
@Plato:
Did they actually tell a judge they were going to present a case, but only after they had pulled one out of their rear end? I have a feeling that whatever they come up with might not pass the smell test.
plato
@ThresherK: Read again. It was more than five.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
I must be feeling even friskier than usual tonight. I honestly read that as “rascally motivated.”
MagdaInBlack
@Plato:
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m glad you brought this up, because I’ve been wondering about it.
This new rational…does that negate the old one?
How does that work? Would that mean the old one was a lie?
IA (definitely) NAL
patrick II
So, I’m watching Ari and a 9/11 responder is talking “McConnell, Schumer and Pelosi need to get in a room and come up with a bipartisan solution”
I don’t know what to say. God bless the 9/11 responders, but for Christ’s sake, the bipartisan solution needs to come from McConnell and a his conscience. Schumer, Pelosi, and the Democrats would have passed a bill long ago.
Jay
In today’s Nazis may be evil and venal, they are also stupid note,
The Canadian Nationalist Party has filed paperwork to become a Registered National Political Party. This designation has significant media, tax, protection and grifting opportunities.
How ever, they are under investigations by the RCMP for Hate Speech and Hate Crimes because their members can’t stop hate criming, and their Cantidates and moderators on their social media, can’t stop Hate Speechifying.
So what’s a poor Nazi Party supposed to do to raise funds for the legal travails to come,……..
Put up a GoFundMe Patreon? Nope, TOS shut down in hours.
Open up a Hatreon accound? Nope, defunct.
“I’ve got it said”, said Himmler’s wanna be left testicle, Travis Patron, “let’s make and sell a large, laser carved, cheap copper, unsanctioned RCMP Musical Ride Commemorative Coin for $675 on our website!”
eemom
@zhena gogolia:
Pardon the kiss of death, but I agree with you that this should not be about idiot knee jerk faux feminism.
Of which camp I see that two hilariously strange bedfellows are already aligned on this thread.
NotMax
Sheesh. As the saying goes, some people would bitch if they were hanged with a new rope.
Uncle Cosmo
@Baud: Reminds me of “the shortest line of blank verse ever written,” from the fictitious play The Courier’s Tragedy by the fictitious Richard Wharfinger, as quoted in Thomas Pynchon’s The Crying of Lot 49
:
plato
@MagdaInBlack:
TaMara (HFG)
@AnneLaurie – understandable confusing white men from Colorado. But Bennet’s senate seat is safe in 2020, but Hickenlooper could have slam-dunked Cory Gardner for his seat if he wasn’t running this fucking vanity campaign. So all my ire is directed at him. Bennet just wants to make sure his ideas are included in the debate. He’ll drop out gracefully in due time.
MagdaInBlack
@plato:
Thank you. Seemed pretty obvious to me.
And all this storm and bluster about “Executive Order.” Then what?
Ivan X
BOOM! Do not f with Anne Laurie this weekend. She will f your s up!
TaMara (HFG)
@Adam L Silverman: But, but, but….IQ45 is going to sign an executive order to include citizenship on the census. So game over according to him.
zhena gogolia
@TaMara (HFG):
That is annoying. Hickenlooper made no impression at the debate.
Uncle Cosmo
@Martin: Senate seats? Go talk Stacey Abrams into running for the one in GA. If Beto couldn’t beat Rafael “Backpfeilgesicht” Crooze, he has no chance against Cormyn, & 2-time loser stink probably kills his electoral future. You can’t expect people to commit political seppuku just to feed your blue-wave fantasies.
jl
@plato: Trump is ‘helping out’ in his own unique way, according to report on Josh Marshall’s twitter:
” Trump on why he wants a citizenship question: “You need it for congress for districting, you need it for appropriations.” Key point: The Solicitor General specifically this was not why they wanted a citizenship question. This is the real reason that they’ve been hiding. ”
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1147284882139353093
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax: That would be me.
germy
@jl: This is why his lawyers didn’t want him talking to Mueller.
Immanentize
@OzarkHillbilly:
I know! So scratchy! Blech.
SiubhanDuinne
@zhena gogolia:
Interesting. VERRRRY Interesting. I did not know that.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Baudddd
MagdaInBlack
@jl:
That thunderous thunk you heard was his attorneys heads hitting their desks.
Good lord he’s an idiot.
rikyrah
@zhena gogolia: ???
germy
@zhena gogolia:
He made an impression on me.
A bad one.
Immanentize
@jl:
I have to say, this is a bit of selective BS. Taken in it’s whole, Trump was talking about the purposes of the census and why it costs so damn much!
So the now-famous part of the quote is true true true.
But at the end of that sentence (?) he says (which no one is quoting) that citizenship matters to reapportionment. It’s vague in his fashion. But he says it. And it is wrong.
plato
It’s the teleprompter….no, it’s the rain…. no, wait, it’s the rain on the teleprompter.
The scummy thug.
jl
As for Democratic primaries, voters seem to be deciding that there are four serious candidates: Biden, Sanders, Warren and Harris. If that keeps up, maybe the separation between between them and the rest of the pack will help the DNC decide on criteria for future debates.
I thought Booker did very well, so surprised he didn’t get anything out of the debates.
And Biden needs to get his head out of someplace or other quickly. I can only think of one policy proposal from him, which was to make a push to expand Medicaid, which seemed like a weak response to more vigorous proposals from other candidates. Did I miss anything. The thing renominating Garland makes him sound like a nostalgia band.
Cheryl Rofer
During the second debate, I saw a tweet that said something like
Immanentize
@SiubhanDuinne:
Dead you know.
germy
@plato: Melania’s headlights were on during that ceremony.
Roger Moore
@Jay:
This is the important point. I’m willing to let the ratfuckers have their fun a year before the convention, provided there’s a reasonable mechanism for keeping them out later on, especially if letting them play can help to deaden the claim that the DNC is playing favorites.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne:
Baud!!!!! 2020!!!!!
SiubhanDuinne
@Betty Cracker:
I thought I saw someplace in the last few days that there’s some major rodent copulation going on. Russian bots contributing money to Williamson, talking her up on social media, etc., all to ensure that she gets a spot in the second round of debates.
I have no doubt that they will continue this throughout the primaries, and maybe even into the general.
Immanentize
@germy:
Cat alert! ?
That woman has lost her shape! She is now a pillar of birtherism.
jl
@Immanentize: We interpret it differently. I heard Trump specifically say ‘citizenship’ is needed. Do you have a link to a longer clip that gives more context? From what I heard, I agree with Marshall.
Ohio Mom
@germy: Remember the Hickenlooper-Kasich bromance? That did it for me, anyone charmed by Kasich (fill in insult of your choice).
germy
@Betty Cracker:
I had assumed she had a huge mailing list of loyal followers/readers from her decades of grifting, and so they all pitched in.
germy
@Ohio Mom: We deserve better. Now more than ever.
Steve in the ATL is
@SiubhanDuinne: can’t always judge one by his or her siblings. My sister, for example, is a biblehumping gun nut racist, while I am a very stable genius.
Jay
@jl:
Speaking of the location of Biden’s head,….
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/07/an-inconvenient-victory
chris
SMDH. Further down the thread when asked about insurance she says, “That was the copay.”
SiubhanDuinne
@zhena gogolia:
What are you, some kind of commie Tulsi-lover?
Baud
@Jay:
I didn’t get it.
germy
Immanentize
@jl: ok I just spent too much time looking g for the whole T statement. It’s out there not clipped somewhere. Have at it.
germy
NotMax
@germy
Be Breast. //
Baud
@germy:
I thought Balloon Juice was what was wrong with America.
@NotMax:
Win.
Ksmiami
@Martin: what total bs. If a male candidate (who wins the primary and is not Bernie) somehow depresses Democratic turnout when there’s a misogynistic fascist we need to eject, I’d say the party never had a chance to begin with.
chris
@germy: Gotta keep the base happy and she’s a pro.
plato
@germy: After all, it was a base show.
eemom
@Martin:
@Ksmiami:
Yeah, I’d say that both propositions are equally stupid.
debbie
@germy:
More than a few Trump supporters consider her to be the classiest First Lady since Jacqueline Kennedy.
cmorenc
@debbie:
Instead, Trump is more likely to announce that he’s entitled under his Executive powers to ignore the Supreme Court decision as “fake” constitutional law, and direct Commerce Secretary Steven Mnuchin to mandate the inclusion of the question on census forms. And if Mnuchin refuses or seems to drag his feet, he’ll fire Mnuchin and appoint a true-believer toady to become “Acting” Secretary and include the question.
ChuckInAustin
I think it’s too late for Beto to run for Senate. MJ Heger has already announced and she has a strong following. Beto would probably win the primary, but it would cause enough bad blood that it would depress Democratic turnout enough that he couldn’t beat Cornyn. (And it’s very doubtful he could in an ideal race.)
guachi
@Baud: Based on only the polls from the last month (mostly because they are right in front of me) representing 22 polls, the following people meet the 2% threshold:
Biden 22/22
Booker 20/22
Buttigieg 22/22
Castro 3/22 (I’ll assume he has a fourth valid poll somewhere)
Harris 22/22
Klobuchar 5/22
O/Rourke 19/22
Sanders 22/22
Warren 22/22
Yang 5/22
That’s 10 candidates and would not be bad for a two night event or a long single night.
debbie
@chris:
I’d almost bet all my prescriptions she was at CVS.
debbie
@Ohio Mom:
You know he’s mulling a run in 2020, right?
burnspbesq
@Baud:
No shit. There’s a strong case for deposing Trump and Ross. The value of the pay-per-view rights is unimaginably yooge.
germy
@debbie: Well, she did get into this country on an Einstein Visa. That’s some high class stuff.
Jay
@Baud:
In discussing winning elections:
snip,
Shakezula notes:
Biden just took a big dump on the whole left/female side of the big tent.
And he could have avoided it all by a few different words and shuffling the sentence structure.
But he’s too old for that.
Citizen Alan
@germy:
Every time Jamie Dimon opens his mouth and says crap like this, all I hear is an ever-growing mob of people crying out in unison for guillotines.
burnspbesq
@ChuckInAustin:
Not to mention that his replacement in the House is a rockstar.
Beto’s next gig is in the Political Science department at UT.
Citizen Alan
@debbie:
More than a few Trump supporters rank First Ladies based on fuckability.
germy
@Jay: Has Biden ever won a primary?
Baud
@Jay:
I like Shakezula, but I still don’t see it. Maybe I’m just tired tonight.
debbie
Nothing but Chaos.
Citizen Alan
@burnspbesq:
Not necessarily. His star is dimming, but he’s still a viable VP candidate to the extent he puts Texas in play. And if Texas is in play, the GOP’s entire electoral strategy falls apart.
debbie
@Citizen Alan:
And skin color.
Citizen Alan
@debbie:
To such people, skin color is an important part of fuckability.
germy
@Citizen Alan:
I think they’d be shocked if they could see her without makeup, mascara, eyeshadow, lashes, etc.
They’d be appalled she’s a regular person and not the goddess of their fantasies.
Sure Lurkalot
@TaMara (HFG): He seems more incrementalist than centrist like Hick. I think he was pretty good in the debate, and in one on ones I’ve seen. More passion than I’ve seen as my senator. I may have voted for Hick in every election, but only given the alternatives (as if I ever voted R), but I wasn’t jazzed about him as mayor or governor. I hope you’re right that Bennet is more self aware, and I can honestly say I like him more now than before. But not in my top 5.
OT, huge hailstorm in SE Denver, after a beautiful day at the art festival. Garden destroyed, again. Partner asking about locusts. Not planting anything until August next year….
Martin
@debbie: Depends on how they’re structured. With so many candidates, I’d like to see them move to topical ones once they get it down to one stage. It was pretty clear that Harris wasn’t going to be asked to participate on the race discussion unless she butted in. That’s a bit unfair, and that’s going to happen to all candidates.
Have a debate on climate change and let everyone speak. Have one on electoral reform, one on immigration, one on civil rights. By the time we’re done with those, we’ll be down to 4-5 candidates and then we can go back to multiple topics.
Jay
@Ksmiami:
Depends on the white male cantidate.
Biden’s and other’s are still selling nostalgia,
Warren/Harris and others are selling “through” with a host of plans/policies to achieve that from voters rights to economic social justice.
Bernie’s selling stale plain granola way way past it’s expiration day.
Go reread Adam’s “Through” Front Page,
https://balloon-juice.com/2019/06/10/the-only-way-out-is-through-there-can-never-be-a-return-to-what-was-normal/
Martin
@Uncle Cosmo:
I agree Adams should run. I think Beto (or Castro) could challenge Cornyn in a presidential year – different turnout dynamic.
Interesting choice to accuse me of blue wave fantasies when I was responding to someone suggesting that the only place to fight fascism is in the WH. Honest to fucking god people, do you really think that Trump has done more damage than McConnell? Yes, he’s more embarrassing, but McConnell is the one getting it done.
chris
@debbie: I don’t know what that means, is CVS the most expensive drug store? Orr went to Good RX and the price was much the same at other places.
TaMara (HFG)
@Sure Lurkalot: Damn. That sucks. It’s heading this way as I look out my window. I still feel Bennet wanted a seat at the table after his “rockstar” moment in the senate against Cruz and the shutdown. He’s passionate about immigration. He was always my, “I voted because he was a Dem candidate”, but not inspired. Hickenlooper grew on me, until this idiocy. I went to a house party for Trish Zorinio and really impressed by her. Just don’t know if she can take on Gardner. But I’m behind her for now.
Gin & Tonic
@germy: That shit really pisses me off. I frankly don’t know whether Melania got in on an EB-1 or an O-1, but both require “extraordinary ability.” My son’s GF works for an O-1 holder, with several other O-1 holders on her team, so he sponsored her for an O-1, and she went through what she calls the rudest and most demeaning interview she’s ever had and was denied. Spent several thousand $. I know, and she knows, there’s nothing guaranteed about the process, but she’s got a US Master’s in her field, has published several papers, headed symposia, and on and on. Sorry, but what has Melania done for hers that requires standing?
Bitter? Yeah.
Jay
@Baud:
Radical, ( for the Democratic Party) lefty women swept the 2018 MidTerms for the Democratic Party.
Biden dissed their wins, minimalized the platforms they ran on and called them “moderate” Democrats.
In all the Primaries they won, they had to defeat “moderate” and “less than moderate” Democratic challengers and incumbents, and then go on to defeat Republicans.
I’m a Red Tory,
Calling me a “Liberal” is an insult. The Liberal Party is now far to the reich of me on every single issue, and my political beliefs are still where they were in the late ‘70’s.
Immanentize
@burnspbesq:
UT San Antonio
Baud
@Jay:
I just didn’t see the diss. We have 40 freshmen, and most are not radical women. AOC legitimately deserves kudos for winning her primary, but the general election was a nothing burger in her district. It seems like a manufactured controversy in my hazy Friday night state.
feebog
@Citizen Alan:
If you want/need a young running mate from Texas, Castro would be the more appealing VP candidate IMHO.
Quaker in a Basement
When the pilot of an attack aircraft wants to confound enemy defenses, he (or she) fires off some chaff–airborne litter that confuses any sensors that might reveal the aircraft’s location. Think of all those extra candidates as chaff. Trump is too lazy to track and attack all of them.
Jay
@chris:
CVS has a rep for not carrying or offering many generic options.
Sadly, it’s an example of Health Care self management in the US.
Every prescription has to be investigated at the point of issue to ensure there are cheaper generics available,
Then investigation that those are available locally,
Then investigation to find out if the Insurance Denier covers both the Generic and the Pharmacy.
plato
Guess I can’t call her tundra twit anymore.
And Alaskans, for a change, can vote for a change, ffs.
Brachiator
@Martin:
Why should anyone try to rank these dopes? They both need to be defeated.
James E Powell
@burnspbesq:
Could Beto be good as a cable show host?
Quinerly
For a chuckle:
https://thinkprogress.org/after-years-of-republican-attacks-teleprompters-go-on-the-offensive-2ff1c591abe9/
Immanentize
Somehow, my most excellent several part comment that would have put all on the path to better living was lost. But instead, defeated.
So sad. Night all.
Jay
@Baud:
Reread it tomorrow with your “mansplaining” radar and “dismissive of women” sonar antennas tuned up to 11, (= 0.4 on women’s scales), and having had lots of coffee.
Kay
Three will hire a teacher as Sec of Ed – Biden, Warren and Sanders. Biden will not hire his wife.
debbie
@Jay:
She won both the primary and the general election. WTF is he prattling on about?
James E Powell
@Citizen Alan:
Does that work anymore? When was the last time a VP candidate pulled a state over to his ticket? Or made a toss-up into a win?
Brachiator
@germy:
Are we talking about Melania or Ivanka?
japa21
@debbie: What would that have to do with it. Copays are determined by the insurance company, not the pharmacy.
debbie
@Jay:
Actually, no. CVS insists on generics. The profit margins are higher. If your doctor specifies brand name, you’ll pay the price of the brand plus whatever the profit they would have made on the generic.
This policy started a couple of years ago.
Kay
@debbie:
She just has to win the primary because the Democrat will win the general in that district.
It was clumsy but I agree with him. I really like AOC – I think she’s much smarter than conservatives give her credit for and I was thrilled that she won, and I get that she beat an incumbent D but she didn’t have to beat a Republican in a competitive district. That’s a different scenario. These are just “election facts” in my book. I’m not offended.
Ohio Mom
@debbie: No I have not heard that but I am not surprised.
Especially after Weld said he was going to run against Trump, I thought, And Kasich isn’t?
Maybe they can both run and cancel each other out (on the theory that Trump will be easier to beat than a “reasonable” Republican).
debbie
@japa21:
CVS also runs an insurance company (Caremark).
Baud
@Kay:
Ah, good. It’s not just my addled brain.
chris
@Jay: Yeah. There’s a thread with all kinds of suggestions, there is no generic option.
Mike J
@plato: Nice to watch people on twitter explaining seasonal weather patterns and sampling errors to the NWS. I’m sure they were grateful for the help in understanding these things they had never heard of before.
Another Scott
@zhena gogolia: He made a big impression on Doktor Zoom at Wonkette:
Cheers,
Scott.
debbie
@Kay:
Maybe, but we don’t know she wouldn’t have won against a Republican.
Jay
@debbie:
“Moderation in all things”, the Grand Nostalgia Tour.
Cacti
@zhena gogolia:
It’s the first one. There has always been a certain kind of lefty who is comfortable enough that politics can be treated entirely as a philosophical exercise.
Consequently, they would rather be pure than win elections.
It’s how we ended up with Richard Nixon, George W. Bush, and Donald Trump as Presidents.
plato
@Brachiator:
With the thug, they are interchangeable.
Kay
Biden is running as a moderate in a D primary. I don’t know how he’s supposed to do that without persuading people that a moderate is more electable. We don’t have to agree with him but if he can’t say that he can’t say anything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: Nancy Pelosi said pretty much the same thing, “this glass of water could win in that district if it had a D next to its name”. Biden called AOC “brilliant”, and I agree she’s very smart, but I’m still not sure if she gets just how un-representative of the country her district is. And a lot of the women elected in ’18 are either considered fairly moderate (Spanberger, Slotkin and Finkenauer are often mentioned in this conversation) or have to win re-election in far more challenging districts where maximalist sloganeering wouldn’t be an asset (Underwood, Davids, Axne)
plato
@Kay: Unless AOC ‘attacked’ uncle joe directly, I see this as his usual ‘gaffe’.
Jay
@debbie:
That’s BS. If I go to buy a Toyota, it’s called fraud if the dealership delivers a Lada and charges for a Prius.
I dm’d with Carol, told her to come to Canada where the brand name is $127 CDN and the Generic is $89 CDN. All that’s needed is a prescription. As she writes for National Observer, she doesn’t even have to come to Canada.
Mainmata
@geg6: I agree with you. Inslee is really interesting and, partly because I work on environment and climate (owing to my Pittsburgh upbringing) I strongly support his climate change platform but he needs to broaden his message. Hickenlooper should be running for the GOP CO Senate seat. We desperately need to seize the Senate away from the monster McConnell.
japa21
@debbie: So? There was nothing in what was said that would make anyone think it was CVS.
Kay
@debbie:
Well, no one does. But Joe Biden can say he and Obama won in swing states, thus his electability argument. Klobachur does the same thing. She won Trump districts, which she mentions every 45 seconds, understandably.
I’m a Warren supporter but I think it’s fair to ask why she doesn’t do better in Massachusetts. I would expect her to win – she has to win by a lot.
trollhattan
IDK who Kristen Hamilton is but tonight she racked up four goals for North Carolina against Houston in the NWSL.
That’s, like, a lot o’ damn goals.
plato
Of course, overpaid chuck toads, tweetys, pox news boobs get to keep theirs.
trollhattan
@Kay:
Familiarity isn’t necessarily its own reward and besides, MA=Scotty Brown so have their own insanity to deal with. Harris isn’t necessarily the de facto choice in CA, either.
Kay
@plato:
Really? I feel like it’s ordinary political gossip. It’s what people say. Now, you could say he shouldn’t say it at all, but that’s not happening. He’s not going to change into a discrete, tightly disciplined person at 75 or whatever he is. I’m not sure he should try.
randy khan
One potentially amusing perspective on the field:
If this were a university history department . . .
Kattails
@zhena gogolia: Got home from work at 9PM, trying to catch up, just wanted to let you know that the first robins fledged out and there’s a new clutch of 3 eggs, checked yesterday. There had to be, the parents are bitching at me for just climbing out of my car in their territory.
Mainmata
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I get the moderate elected women and men in 2018 and they’re good people but the reality is who animates the electorate now? AOC is smart, intensely does her research and does her job fearlessly. We need more Democrats like her to animate the electorate and not the tired and fearful placeholders we’ve had in the past.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Joy Reid is absolutely right, but this second comment by Bob Sampson is made succinctly and is not made often enough
I’ll never forget trump bragging about how well he did with the “poorly educated”– sarcastically sneering “I love the poorly educated!” He despises you, Cletuses
plato
@Kay: Yeah, as I said, gaffe machine. Don’t start silly political fights that you cannot possibly win.
Baud
@Mainmata:
It’s not either/or. It’s a question of who can put together the total number of voters in the right places. Animating 45% of the electorate doesn’t mean anything if that’s where you’re stuck.
Jay
@Cacti:
My nephew quite simply explained why he’s voting Green this fall even though Green has no chance.
As he puts it, why bother volenteering and organizing for a Cantidate who’s going to deliver same o, same o of the system that’s been screwing us for decades, but with a pretty face,
when I can spend that time Ubering and TaskGeeking and make $2800 during the Campaign season?
Kanahaus Manuel pointed out that aside from empty apologies, the only things the Indigenous Groups have gotten during the Liberals term so far, despite all their promises in the last election, have all come from winning court cases and lawsuits.
A perfect example is Bernie. A lotta Democrats will hold their noses and vote for him if he’s the nominee, but they arn’t going to fundraise, campaign, do outreach, register voters and GOTV.
That will have an big impact on turnout.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
See, I don’t think she has to “get it”. She just has to do her thing and Biden can do his. The moderates (ahem, Biden) have to resist the impulse to scold the liberals and insist they concede they aren’t representative of the country. They aren’t ever going to do that and why should they?
The liberals aren’t telling the moderates to get out. This only seems to work one way. For some reason the liberals must surrender, preemptively, based solely on the moderates belief they are more electable.
Jay
@plato:
AOC’s said nothing about Biden.
Chetan Murthy
@Kay:
I don’t understand how this is even germane. When David Brat beat Eric Cantor in the primary, and then proceeded to wipe out his opponent (Trammell) 61-37. Wipeout. B/c that district was R+10 the most GrOPer-leaning district in eastern VA. Nobody said “gosh, Brat only really won a primary, how does that EVEN count?” They instead said: “he knocked off a highly-ranked GrOPer in his own stronghold! Brilliant!”
Sure, the general in AOC’s district was even more lopsided than Brat’s (78-14). But the -primary- was what mattered, and AOC demonstrated that she understood politics, retail politics, didn’t she?
I don’t see how Old Handsome Joe has a leg to stand on. I really don’t.
Martin
@Brachiator: Agreed. But having 20 people trying to beat Trump and 0 trying to beat Cornyn isn’t how you get there.
Baud
@Jay:
I don’t know about recently, but she has said stuff in the past.
Kay
@plato:
This isn’t silly. This is his whole argument. I Am The Electable One. I’m glad to see he’s actually fleshing some things out. He was fairly specific at the NEA meeting. I’m a little concerned that he doesn’t work harder, frankly.
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
I thought Joe acknowledged her primary win but didn’t acknowledge her general election win and that’s why people are upset.
Chetan Murthy
@Baud: He didn’t merely -acknowledge- it: he -dismissed- it. And that’s why people are (rightly) upset. In that district (as in Rhode Island, so Erik Loomis of LG&M tells us) the primary is the actual election that matters.
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
What language are you quoting where he dissed her primary win?
Jay
@Kay:
The Democratic Party has a long, sad history of punching left and sucking up to the right.
“Moderation” isn’t going to win Yurtle the Turtles seat in Kentucky.
And “Moderation” isn’t going to fix what’s broken.
https://balloon-juice.com/2019/06/10/the-only-way-out-is-through-there-can-never-be-a-return-to-what-was-normal/
Kay
@Chetan Murthy:
Well, it’s bizarre that I’m defending Joe Biden who I don’t much care for, but what the hell. He was making a point about how in his “theory of the case” moderates running on bread and butter economic issues prevailed. That was the wave. That was his point. AOC is an exception to that so he has to explain why her race wasn’t a good example of it- because it’s a slam dunk D district. That’s all he meant! It’s just political jabbering. It’s not an attempt to steal her win.
IMO very plugged in Democrats love that sort of stuff- they love political commentary from candidates because to a certain extent candidates have to pretend they are ALL issue based and of course they’re not- they’re political. Biden is just saying that out loud. They probably loved it.
Chetan Murthy
@Baud: From TPM:
What he -should- have said was something like:
Jay
@Baud:
9 months ago was her last mention of Biden, and she didn’t say anything dismissive. She said that she hoped that Biden, in a time of MeToo, would become more aware.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
In 2016 Hilary Clinton did just about everything she could to appease Bernie and his cultists. It didn’t fix what was broken
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
I don’t see that as dismissive. It’s just saying her situation is not representative. Maybe he’s wrong, but being wrong is not insulting in itself.
Baud
@Jay:
This is last month.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/450415-ocasio-cortez-on-bidens-candidacy-i-think-that-hes-not-a-pragmatic-choice
plato
@Kay:
Very plugged in Democrats love that sort of stuff is irrelevant in that they will vote for whichever dem candidate wins the nomination. It’s the margins that count, isn’t it? At least, that’s how the totus thug won. And left of center isn’t even the margins for the dem party.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Agreed. I’m happy to punch left when it’s justified.
Anne Laurie
@zhena gogolia: Williamson’s a vanity candidate who’ll drift away as soon as the media stops paying attention. Gabbard’s a grifter who’ll go back to her fringe forpol cult as soon as the GRU stops propping her up. Arguing with them / their supporters would be like lecturing my little dog about not eating cat poop — they won’t understand and it’d waste my precious time. Argument is for those who can at least follow logic!
Chetan Murthy
@Baud: I guess we’ll have to differ on this. I watched the clip, and it seems clear to me that he’s classing her as -less- than the other candidates who won, b/c she only a primary and they won general elections. But it’s OK: since then, she’s demonstrated that she’s far and away one of the most talented of the freshman class. Nothing Old Handsome Joe can do (or say) about that.
zhena gogolia
@Kattails:
Wow, congratulations!
I don’t have the heart to follow the birds closely any more, but there are a ton of robins despite our losing our little nestful. Lots of chipmunks and rabbits too this year.
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
I haven’t seen the video, so maybe it leaves a different impression.
Kay
@Jay:
Well, I don’t agree with him so therefore am supporting Warren but I don’t know how he makes his electability argument without discussing politics and specific examples are more interesting that David Brook’s boring theories.
You know why “the 50 state strategy” ended? Because it’s really hard to win in some of these places. That’s why it’s hard to find candidates. They rarely win. They know this. Did you watch the documentary about the insurgent candidates that included AOC? You tell me- harder in West Virginia or NYC? A Democrat primarying a Democrat from the Left is not the same thing as running against a Republican. I wouldn’t think we would have to argue about this.
Brachiator
@Chetan Murthy:
Smarter still would be to not pick a fight with her at all or to insult her constituents.
Baud
@Brachiator:
If Biden is trying to win the center/moderates, maybe it is the smart move.
Kay
@plato:
I don’t know. I’m not as sure of this as you are. Biden is warming up a little and it’s kind of interesting where he’s going. He seems to know he has older supporters so he hits his belief in NATO, that sort of thing, which they seem to respond to.
I think there very well might be a signifigant portion of the D base who DO want a “return to normalcy”. I think that’s a very human and understandable thing to want. They value institutions. They want someone to bring them back. Biden says he will do that.
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
You’re absolutely right.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: also, I don’t see how calling her brilliant is picking a fight with her
And like Kay, I’m not even a fan of Candidate Biden, I wish he had eased into the role of elder statesman (to the extent that was possible. He was never gonna be able to do for anyone what Ted Kennedy did for Obama, but he after Obama he would’ve been one of the most prominent voices in the party)
Chetan Murthy
@Brachiator:
All he had to say was “Hey, the general will not be decided in districts like (AOC’s) NY 14th CD; it’ll be decided in districts where mainstream … yadda yadda yadda”. And he coulda even added “I’ll bet that even AOC would agree that there are lots of places where her positions will not win votes, and the Democratic Party has to be able to meet these people, our fellow Americans, in those places, where they live and work and vote.”
I mean, shit, it’s not so hard, and you don’t have to insult anybody.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Like his competitor from long ago, Leona Helmsley, used to say, “Taxes are for little people.”
Chetan Murthy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
[not a politician, so maybe I’m wrong, but] To a career politician, it wouldn’t matter how great you are at whatever-it-is you do: when it come to politics, what matters is, can you win elections? That’s the first thing, and without that thing, nothing else matters [there’s a bit in _The American President_ about this idea, and I think it’s right.] Until and unless you can win elections [or get other people elected], you’re not worth of recognition as a political force.
Maybe I’m wrong about that.
Kay
I’ll tell you what is already driving me crazy. This tendentious legalistic approach political media are taking with the Democratic candidates. WTF? They are forbidden to say “Medicare for All” without expressly endorsing every word of Bernie Sanders legislation? Since WHEN is this the standard so early in a primary? Not to mention they do NONE of this legalistic parsing and sort of DUMB literal insistence on the meaning of each word with the douchebag.
When did the rules change? Why are they treating D policy proposals like we’re all signing a contract?
Chuck Todd and Guthrie – “ma’am in paragraph B section 11 it says, and I quote..”
I can stand that they completely dropped all standards re: Trump. I have learned to live with that. But they also plan on raising the standards for every Democrat?
Brachiator
@Chetan Murthy:
Is AOC’s district really a commie cell? Are her constituents non mainstream and out of touch with “real Americans?”
Kinda begs the question of what the Democratic Party believes in. Is AOC part of the extremist fringe or does she represent the future?
Biden’s got a problem, and maybe the Democrats have one, too.
Kattails
@zhena gogolia: Thought it would be a nice break for you amidst this rather intensive set of comments but am amazed you even found it.
Saw Harris live and in person a couple/few weeks ago, Warren will be near enough this Monday and I’m off work, really should make the time.
‘ta for now,
Jay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Bernie had a cult.
Dolt 45 had Russians, Sawdi’s the UAE, Israel, Macedonian 400lb basement guys, domestic trolls, The MSM, Cambridge Analetica, millions in illegal funding, Butter Emailz, 40 years of Hunting the Clintons, rampant mysogeny, goter repression, Republican data, just to name a few,…….
and lost the popular vote by 3 million or so,
and won the EC by less than 80,000 votes in 3 States and some faithless electors.
Pretty sure it would have been a lot worse had the Democratic Party Platform not shifted left.
It’s not 2016 anymore, it’s close to Orwell’s 1948 on some issues, Carnegie’s 1889 on others, and UcCivil War 1860 on others.
As Adam pointed out, “Through” is the only course.
Jay
@Kay:
A little while ago, a Political Compass thingy was published here, showing the based on policy, the 2018 on Democratic Party had moved significantly left to the 2016 Democratic Party and way left of the 2008 Democratic Party.
Meanwhile, the Rethug Party had move right over the years, exceeding all European Rightwing Parties to the point that they were bumping up against the Reich Wing Facist Parties like Golden Dawn.
Given that, a “centerist” Candidate isn’t going to win in 2020 for President. The median position of the Democratic voter where Democrats got elected, is in the Warren/Harris zone, they are not going to campaign hard for somebody far right of that,
And while a Biden et al position might win the moderate PAC and the Corporate Donor Class*, they don’t have many votes and *always spends more on ReThugs.
The 50 State strategy wasn’t abandoned because it didn’t work, or that it was too hard to corral Blue Dogs and Liberal Democrats,
It’s because it had a significant impact on the accustomed power and cash flow of the “backrooms”.
And what’s the current truism, given voter supression, forced birther laws, jerrymandering, court packing, etc,
The Democratic Party ( now that’s the party, not a Presidential Campaign) has to compete everywhere, Munincipalities, Courts, State Houses, Governorships if they want to stop the ReThug program of seizeing power buy hook or by crook and entrenching the ReThugs in power for generations of minority rule.
As long as a rock and 3 cows in North Dakota have more Senate Representation than 3,000,000 people in California or New York State, you’ve got to fight for North Dakota, and it will be a bitter, long fight.
Jay
@Kay:
Then the US is toast. That’s why I call Biden’s Campaign The Nostalgia Tour.
https://balloon-juice.com/2019/06/10/the-only-way-out-is-through-there-can-never-be-a-return-to-what-was-normal/
Right now about 50% of Democratic Voters and Independent’s get that.
What’s the current count of Democratic House and Senate Members who have read the Mueller Report?
Mandalay
@Kay:
I wonder how many of the folks clamoring for Beto to step down and run for the Senate again also wanted to abandon the 50 state strategy.
O’Rourke still has far more chance of winning the presidency than he does of defeating Cornyn.
Jay
@Mandalay:
Again, the 50 State Strategy wasn’t abandoned. It was strangled in the bath.
The DNC didn’t want to spend the money and the time investing in say , Georgia, at the local and State level, because it upset entrenched interests.
Might have made a difference for Stacy Abrams and all the Georgia women who face forced births and death.
Suzanne
@Mandalay:
Truth.
It really sucks, when you want to build a career, to be told that you should go be a sacrificial lamb for a race you’ll never win.
J R in WV
@Steve in the ATL is:
And my brother is a gun humping RWNJ believer in the BSA cult, who moved to Texas at least twice. I am none of those things, and avoid TX like the plague.
Kraux Pas
@Kay: Warren got 2/3 of the vote in MA for her last election.
john fremont
@TaMara (HFG): This!
polyorchnid octopunch
@Jay: The only way out is through, eh? Obligatory soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSsfjHCFosw