Friday Morning Open Thread: Kamala Harris Had A REALLY Great Debate

(Transcript here, courtesy the Washington Post.)

214 replies
  1. 1
    Mary G says:

    Proud of my senator.

    Poor Hickenlooper. Even the woo-woo lady beat him in the Indivisible straw pool.

  2. 2
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Alabama: pregnant woman shot in stomach is charged in fetus’s death

    A woman from Alabama who was shot in the stomach while pregnant – with the bullets killing the fetus – has been charged with manslaughter.

    Marshae Jones was reportedly five months pregnant when she was shot by another woman in December outside a shop in Pleasant Grove, near Birmingham.

    On Wednesday, Jones, 27, was indicted by a Jefferson county grand jury on a manslaughter charge and is expected to be held in Jefferson county jail on a $50,000 bond, while the woman accused of shooting her walked free, reported

    The case has raised alarm among pro-choice groups who say it is shocking evidence of how the state’s restrictive abortion laws are now being used against pregnant women.

    “The investigation showed that the only true victim in this was the unborn baby,’’ said Lt Danny Reid of Pleasant Grove police following the shooting, reported in December. “It was the mother of the child who initiated and continued the fight which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.”

    It comes after the Alabama governor, Kay Ivey ,signed a bill in May banning abortion in almost every circumstance – including rape and incest – posing a challenge to Roe v Wade, the landmark 1973 supreme court judgment that guaranteed abortion rights across the nation.

    Alabama is one of 38 states with fetal homicide laws that recognize a fetus as a potential victim.

    It is also a “stand-your-ground” state, which means people are allowed to use physical force to defend themselves if their reason is considered “justifiable”.

    Anything I could say at this point might get me arrested.

  3. 3
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m so pissed off even wordpress feels the need to put me in moderation, I mean time out.

  4. 4
    Quinerly says:

    I absolutely adore Kamala.

  5. 5
    Raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: How you feelin man?

  6. 6
    plato says:

    What is the emmessem’s don’t trust your eyes spin on who won this am?

  7. 7
    Betty Cracker says:

    Harris nailed that debate, no question about it. When the hubbub dies down, she’ll need to clarify her position on private health insurance again, though. She raised her hand for the “would you abolish private health insurance” question, then walked it back later, according to HuffPo.

    If Biden’s people have any sense, they’ll fit him with a shock collar that activates every time he utters the word “busing.” I don’t think he’s capable of admitting he was wrong. The interview he gave after the debate, when he dredged up the de facto vs. de jure rationale, was even worse.

    I laughed when Sanders accused Maddow of mischaracterizing a statement he made about guns and she said, dude, I was QUOTING you!

    Harris’s dominant performance may end up hurting Sanders as much as it wounded Biden. Sanders has been underperforming, so he needed a big night.

    Marianne Williamson didn’t Uber back to the hotel after the debate. Love appeared in the form of a radiant unicorn, and she rode it home.

  8. 8
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Raven: I’m OK, still a little off from my Wed/Thur overnight crampathon but I’ll manage the day OK. Getting the stitches out helps. I am always amazed at how much a foreign body, even little tiny ones like stitches, impacts my psyche and I don’t even know it until it is gone. The body sighs in relief.

  9. 9
    Raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m glad you feel better. I’ve always been surprised that the bolts on my spine have never really bothered me.

  10. 10
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Love appeared in the form of a radiant unicorn, and she rode it home.

    Heh. Thanx, I needed a giggle.

  11. 11
  12. 12
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  13. 13
    rikyrah says:

    Morning to Poco and the tribe 😌😊😻

  14. 14
    NotMax says:

    @Ozark Hillbilly

    Beat me to it on posting about that. Here’s the story from Alabama media which had set aside while waiting for the morning thread: Alabama woman loses unborn child after being shot, gets arrested; shooter goes free.

  15. 15
    satby says:

    Seems like this debate was more defining than the first one as far as marking the irrelevants on stage, which is good. And Biden and Sanders during it out for 3rd and 4th, also good.
    My nephew was asking during the debate (online) how Biden could look younger than Wilmer, and I said because Biden wasn’t a spiteful old asshole. Glad how old Wilmer is is sinking in with his former fans. TBF, my nephew has been a Warren or Harris voter for a while now.

  16. 16
    burnspbesq says:

    I don’t expect to live long enough to see a white woman prosecuted under Alabama’s fetal-homicide statute.

  17. 17
    RAVEN says:

    Ok, I know everybody here hates Scarborough but tell me how he’s wrong that there is no way health care for undocumented immigrants is a surefire loser?

  18. 18
    NotMax says:

    Another recent item which caught the eye.

    On Wednesday afternoon, hundreds of Wayfair employees streamed out of the company’s Boston offices and congregated in Copley Square to protest the home-goods retailer’s refusal to stop supplying furniture to immigration detention centers on the U.S.-Mexico border. They chanted, waved signs with slogans like “Solidarity with Migrant Families,” shared sunscreen, and fought back angry tears at the thought of having unwittingly become a part of what many consider to be human rights abuses on the part of the U.S. government. Source

  19. 19
    satby says:

    @satby: never mind, see what it is now. Fucking appalling, and has been provoking outrage on Twitter since yesterday.
    @rikyrah: Good morning 😊

  20. 20
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Raven: So far I’ve been lucky and have yet to have anything permanently added to my body. I wonder if it would bother me as much as I think it would. Probably not. Doesn’t seem to bother others.

  21. 21
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yea, I’ve had the harrington rods for 40+years, maybe they will bother me some day!

  22. 22
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: Just comment #2. Kay, once again, was dead on target. Scary how she does that.

    @NotMax: Thanx, checking it out now.

  23. 23
    Bostonian says:

    Kamala sure took some of the shine off Biden there, didn’t she?

    She was my favorite from the get go, and her star is justly rising.

    I bet the first oppo drop on her hits the FNYT this afternoon.

  24. 24
    Betty Cracker says:

    @RAVEN: Depends on what he means by “sure fire loser.” If he means “extending healthcare to undocumented immigrants will be a heavy lift in a country populated by tens of millions of gullible xenophobes that can’t even cover its own damned citizens,” he’s not wrong. If he means “OMFG the Dems are DOOMED, DOOMED I SAY,” he’s wrong.

  25. 25
    Raven says:

    @Betty Cracker: He means losing the fucking election.

  26. 26
    JPL says:

    @RAVEN: It depends on how they follow up. The last thing most people want to see is immigrants or visitors to our country die because they can’t get healthcare.

    brown people might be okay though

  27. 27
    Quinerly says:

    @rikyrah: Tail wags, meows, waves back! Lovely St. Louis happy hour meet up yesterday. Gathering of 7 interesting souls.

  28. 28
  29. 29
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’ve got screws and bolts and plates and shit, and don’t even think about it.

  30. 30
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @RAVEN: It’s a no brainer for any one who thought it thru but a sure fire loser with the xenophobes, who aren’t confined to the GOP as much as we like to pretend they are. We (the US electorate) do like to punish those we think are stealing from the rest of us and worship the ones who really are stealing from the rest of us.

  31. 31
    NotMax says:

    @Gin & Tonic

    Coming this fall to Netflix, The Bionic Barfly.


  32. 32
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Raven: So it’s the DOOMED option, which is what I would expect from the histrionic Scarborough. Trump is already trying to use it as a wedge issue on Twitter. I’m sure it will resonate with his base, as does the hysteria over caravans and open borders and angel moms blah blah blah.

    But what are Democrats supposed to say when asked if universal healthcare should apply to everyone in the country? No, we’ll let undocumented immigrants walk among us with diseases and die in the streets? Or universal means universal?

    I’m hoping any Democrat, even the woo lady, would have the sense to point out that undocumented immigrants already access the same shitty healthcare system that’s in place now for Americans without insurance, which is basically to go to the ER when you can no longer ignore a serious health problem or die quietly at home.

  33. 33
    Quinerly says:

    @JPL: there could be photographic proof. We even had a mystery, long time lurker guest. 💙

  34. 34
    Baud says:


    Good morning.

  35. 35
    Chyron HR says:

    Am i the only one who thinks it’s a fucking hoot that the worshipers of Bernie “White working lives are what REALLY matter!” Sanders are trying to pull this “kAMaLa’S a COp” shit?

  36. 36
    Baud says:

    Glad to hear Kamala did well.

  37. 37
    SRW1 says:

    Trump allies so far viewing Kamala Harris performance warily, see her performance as strongest on the stage.

    Some Twitter ‘love’ from Twittler specifically for Harris would be the confirming icing on the cake.

  38. 38
    Quinerly says:

    @Chyron HR: I thought it was weird when Biden blurted out that he had been a public defender. Don’t get me wrong, I like Biden; but he’s 3rd/4th down my list. I had hoped he wasn’t going to runn but I guess by just running he bit into any possible lead of Sanders. So, there’s that….

  39. 39
    SRW1 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Marianne Williamson didn’t Uber back to the hotel after the debate. Love appeared in the form of a radiant unicorn, and she rode it home.

    Betty, whatever John pays you, it’s not enough on them here top 10,000 blog!

  40. 40
    rikyrah says:

    Keith White (@keethers) Tweeted:
    Truth is, if you can’t hit Joe Biden on his vulnerable areas, you’re probably not ready to tussle with a white supremacist like Donald Trump.

  41. 41
    Raven says:

    @Betty Cracker: yea, well I hope so too.

  42. 42
    Baud says:


    “It was the mother of the child who initiated and continued the fight which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.

    “It was the mother of the child who drove the car which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.”

    ““It was the mother of the child who took a job which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.”

    “It was the mother of the child who angered her boyfriend which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.”


  43. 43
    rikyrah says:

    See….tell it 😠😠

  44. 44
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    As political observers we often focus on text at the expense of subtext, the libretto at the expense of the score, where the real story is told. The big winner tonight was Kamala Harris. She was consistently strong in her answers. Her dramatic confrontation with Joe Biden is clearly the story of the evening. But again, score over libretto. Somewhat like Booker last night but much more so, she took possession of the room and turned it to her advantage. She repeatedly kept talking until she was done talking and did it without sounding rude or grating. She could do that because she embodied command. She made the moderators sound annoying. She continually showed through actions rather than words that she’s powerful, that she commands the room, that she shapes the moment rather than being shaped by it. This sort of demonstration of command is always important. It’s especially important when the ultimate opponent is Donald Trump. She was far and away the big winner.

    -Josh Marshall

  45. 45
    rikyrah says:

    Caroline Orr (@RVAwonk) Tweeted:
    A lot of suspect accounts are pushing the “Kamala Harris is not Black” narrative tonight. It’s everywhere and it has all the signs of being a coordinated/artificial operation. #DemDebate2

  46. 46
    Baud says:


    Isn’t that a good thing for swing states?

  47. 47
    Baud says:

    Clare McKaskill liked Kamala.

  48. 48
    debbie says:


    If anything, I think it will peel away the more moderate Trump supporters. That 27% is bound to decrease. It will also be a defining moment for the more “humane” evangelicals. Just because Trump jumps all over it doesn’t make it wrong.

  49. 49
    SRW1 says:


    Barack wasn’t black either! Amazing how that ‘one drop of blood’ has evaporated!

  50. 50
    NotMax says:

    @Ozark Hillbilly

    Among the also rans, thought Swalwell conducted and presented himself the best of that tier.

  51. 51
    My Side of Town says:

    To me these are introducing the contenders events. I didn’t see anything live on Wednesday, and actually fell asleep before last nights ending, but my take away, was two grouchy old geezers in the middle flanked by two young articulate and promising prospects, mannequins on the left and right beyond them, except for the far, far left, whose name was Marianne (seems like a great prospect for HHS sec). I think the field could easily be reduced to Harris, Warren, Castro, Bootegeig, Booker and Marianne at this point.

  52. 52
    Baud says:

    So Trump jokes about election meddling by Russia on camera with Putin.

    Ok then.

  53. 53
    QUINERLY says:

    @Baud: and she’s been a big Biden cheerleader. At least the snippets I have caught in the past.

  54. 54
    Amir Khalid says:

    I agree: this is obscene. I can only hope that at some point in the legal process, the prosecution’s sick and twisted justification for prosecuting her is rejected before trial.

  55. 55
    Baud says:


    She said he did ok, but she was not gushing over him. Revealing.

  56. 56
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    He lied about it:

    Peter Baker
    ‏Verified account
    9h9 hours ago
    More Peter Baker Retweeted Susan Glasser
    He says he passed a television and saw an answer on health care for illegal immigrants. “Unfortunately they didn’t discuss what they’re giving to American citizens,” he said. “That’s not a good thing.

    Whether the lying matters more in ’20 than it did in ’16 might be interesting. He’s at 65% or so now who know he’s a liar:

    More than six in 10 American voters polled in a new Quinnipiac University Poll survey say President Trump is not an honest person.
    The survey, released Tuesday, found that 65 percent of respondents believe Trump is dishonest, a new high. Just 30 percent said that the president is honest.

    It’s 70% for independents.

    Do his attacks matter as much? Just as a campaign tool? They all say “none of it matters” but the “he’s a liar” number did go up. His whole campaign will rely on getting the Democratic candidates unfavorables up and to do that X number of people (above his base) have to believe what he says. He’s narrowed that universe of people now with years of daily, repeated lies.

  57. 57
    Raven says:

    @debbie: i dunno, he was talking about the combination of open borders and free health care. Counting on moderate voters is not all that encouraging.

  58. 58
    debbie says:


    “None of your business” indeed.

  59. 59
    debbie says:


    It’s not like I’ve never been wrong before. Sigh.

  60. 60
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was…

  61. 61
    Don Quijote says:


    The day some immigrant crosses the border carrying some highly contagious disease that has a long dormant period. Diseases don’t care whether or not you are in the US legally or not.

  62. 62
    NotMax says:


    Marianne (Touchy-feely Party – North Never-never Land)? Really?

  63. 63
    NotMax says:

    Reply fix.

    @My Side of Town

    Marianne (Touchy-feely Party – North Never-never Land)? Really?

  64. 64
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Baud: this is Alabama. “It was the mother of the unborn child who didn’t leave the restaurant even after good Christian white people warned her what might happen.”

  65. 65
    debbie says:

    I listened to an NPR interview with Tom Reed (R) this morning and have a better understanding about the Pelosi bashing going on last night. She didn’t have a choice. I don’t understand how people so upset about how children are being mistreated would hold out for a better deal, letting the suffering continue. They should instead introduce legislation ASAP controlling contractor payments, living conditions, etc.

    ETA: Reed is still a raging, major league asshole.

  66. 66
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    Make that “…the prosecution’s police’s sick and twisted justification for prosecuting charging her …”

  67. 67
    Quinerly says:

    @Baud: Mika isn’t gushing this AM either. Unrelated, Gillibrand’s little girl voice bugs me. Especially when you contrast it with our girl, Kamala. I guess I’m being a bit catty.

  68. 68
    E says:

    Joe Scarborough told me this morning, as he opened his show, last night was a disaster fro Democrats. The night before Donny Deutche told me Warren would loose 48 of 50 states. MSNBC really knows how to program to their base audience.

  69. 69
    My Side of Town says:

    @NotMax: Lol. You have to have comic relief.

  70. 70
  71. 71
    NotMax says:

    My bad. Fix.


    Entirely unsurprisingly, Gillibrand revealed herself as an empty suit dress last night.

  72. 72
    Kay says:


    They’re Republicans. As the campaign starts in earnest they’ll find a way to make any Democrat unacceptable and reluctantly conclude Trump must be re-elected, and it’s the Democrats fault for not offering any viable alternative. The only acceptable Democrat would be a moderate, business friendly Republican, preferably a wealthy celebrity they already know personally.

  73. 73
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Coooolll… How do I get one for my garden?

    When Rotorua resident Susan Gedye was awoken at 2am by “a lot of shaking and jolting” she thought it was an earthquake. But then she headed downstairs at her suburban home and saw that her kitchen windows had steamed up and a large mud geyser had appeared in her garden.

  74. 74

    @OzarkHillbilly: Move to New Zealand’s North Island.

  75. 75
    NotMax says:


    Perhaps we can collectively convince Mr., Cole to install a mud feature?

  76. 76
  77. 77
    QUINERLY says:

    @NotMax: I have not been a Gillibrand hater. Rather agnostic about her. I wish all that whiskey she talks about drinking would “husky up” her voice, though😎 Don’t normally attack people for things they can’t control, but I just can’t take her voice seriously. Has anyone else noticed it?

  78. 78
    satby says:

    I left the local Indivisible group here 6 months after the election in 2016 because they were hardcore Wilmerites. So the flash poll above surprises me in a good way. Wilmer has lost his core group. And that Maddow zing!

  79. 79
    Spanky says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Or next door to the Yellowstone caldera.

    But I wouldn’t advise it.

    Happy to see each of my top two “won” each night at the races.

  80. 80
    zhena gogolia says:

    The Russian trolls are mobbing Harris now. (“She’s not really black! She’s a cop!”)

    And yes, agreeing with somebody upthread, my husband and I fully expect her to take her place on the front page of the NYT, in place of Biden, with the “clouds of suspicion” stories now.

  81. 81

    @OzarkHillbilly: Nothing like a better night’s sleep to make life easier.

  82. 82
    Spanky says:

    @QUINERLY: Not a Gillibrand fan by any stretch, but I’m going to posit that her voice is going to negatively impact the way voters see her somewhere on a spectrum from as consciously as it does you to completely unconsciously.

    Male voter: “She makes sense, but there’s just something about her I can’t put my finger on ….”

  83. 83
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I doubt they’d take me.

    @NotMax: I already have a mud feature, I call it my “vegetable garden”. It’s how I ended up with stitches.

  84. 84
    gene108 says:


    Read the part about Alexandra Laird (white), a heroine addict. I think any properly connected white woman, will not be prosecuted

  85. 85
    Kay says:


    She was better than I thought she’d be, so I’m surprised she got such poor reviews. I don’t like the talking out of turn, though. I know they’re supposed to be aggressive if they’re behind but I resent it when I can’t hear any of them because some refuse to follow the rules. DeBlasio was the worst but she was bad too.

  86. 86
    rikyrah says:

    Adam Parkhomenko (@AdamParkhomenko) Tweeted:
    Donald Trump Jr. has questions about whether Kamala Harris is black. Here’s a reminder to Democrats: these motherfuckers are not only racist but they are literally projecting who they know can defeat Donald Trump.

  87. 87
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: It surely do help.

  88. 88
    satby says:

    @Spanky: they do it to any woman. They did it to Clinton.

  89. 89
    rikyrah says:

    Your pictures yesterday were amazing 😍🤗

  90. 90
    Another Scott says:

    @QUINERLY: Her voice seems fine to me. I admit (with shame) that there were times that Hillary’s voice bothered me. But I didn’t get that lizard-brain reaction from Kirsten.



  91. 91

    @rikyrah: Thanks, I’ll note that I put up a “On the Road” gallery on my website for those that may feel inclined to purchase a copy. It only goes back a bit over a year right now.

  92. 92
    hueyplong says:

    Maybe I’m cynical, but as a Kamala Harris fan, the most encouraging thing in this thread is the reference to a coordinated troll campaign about whether she’s really black. That’s an extra clear sign that somebody is afraid of Kamala Harris, and there’s a good chance I despise that somebody.

    It’s getting me nostalgic for right wing whining about various items being “shoved down their throats.”

  93. 93

    @hueyplong: Remember they did the same thing to President Obama.

  94. 94
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @gene108: Any “properly connected” (read “rich”) white women would “nevah fahnd herself in such compromising circumstances” to begin with! (read with my Grams deep Texas accent)

  95. 95
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    ‘Despicable act’: May confronts Putin over Salisbury poisoning while trump jokes with Putin about election meddling. Oh to have a President who actually cared about his country.

  96. 96
    Kay says:


    Since they went to manslaughter now they have to go to involuntary manslaughter then there’s the whole suite of abuse, neglect and dependency laws which must be applied if life begins at conception. I bet they found out about the pregnancy because going into an emergency room with a gunshot triggers a report. Medical providers are mandatory reporters under child abuse and neglect. Now we get the analysis of every miscarriage.
    When you change one set of laws so profoundly, to say “life begins at conception”, to redefine “a person” it ripples to all the other laws, because it has to. It was always, always going to go beyond abortion because these laws aren’t abortion laws, they are pregnancy laws.
    They have opened up every single pregnancy to any applicable state intervention or action, and the laws are such garbage, such a sloppy mess that women are going to be subject to this on a case by case basis, with wild variation between jurisdictions, until there’s years of case law that goes all the way up to the state supreme court and amendment after amendment. They redefined “a person” and they’re winging it.
    What Roe really did was say to the state, “here, inside this person, you may not go”. Now, they can. No one knows where it begins or ends and anyone who tells you they do is lying.

  97. 97
    rikyrah says:


    Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) Tweeted:
    WARNING: For 5 months a small group of black cyber security experts have been watching a bunch of black Trumpers using #ADOS & warning it was the leading edge of a racist Russian cyber attack on @KamalaHarris. Many bots. Some trolls. Here it is. Find. Block. Report.

  98. 98
    hueyplong says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I absolutely remember that. It’s what they did when taking a break from calling him our Kenyan Muslim overlord.

  99. 99
    randy khan says:

    Maybe I’m cynical, but as a Kamala Harris fan, the most encouraging thing in this thread is the reference to a coordinated troll campaign about whether she’s really black. That’s an extra clear sign that somebody is afraid of Kamala Harris, and there’s a good chance I despise that somebody.

    I’d take that as a positive sign if I were supporting Harris (and, of course, something to think about addressing). I will say that as a pasty white guy, my guess is that black voters probably don’t think highly of that kind of whisper campaign.

  100. 100
    Betty Cracker says:

    Regarding Gillibrand’s voice: I read something recently about the woman who pulled the huge Theranos con in Silicon Valley. She supposedly received coaching to pitch her voice lower to come off as more authoritative because we’re conditioned to equate masculinity with power, and therefore we respond more positively to deeper voices. Lizard brains indeed.

  101. 101
    Quinerly says:

    @Spanky: you have a point and I’m almost ashamed of myself for saying it out loud. I just love Kamala’s voice, so there’s such a contrast. I’ve been working at nights on finishing touches on this Air BnB rental project so for both nights I listened to the debates on the Tune In app on the Echo. No visuals, just voices. Last night it really stuck out for me. Plus, Gillibrand’s interruptions. Kamala’s voice has this kinda, lazy roll to it. Probably not describing it well… She’s just very intriguing to me. Sometimes it’s like she’s got this inside joke that she might or might not let you in on. I feel that I listen to her because I really want to hear what she’s going to say next. It’s also like she’s going to whip up on you, then give this little chuckle after she’s crucified you. 😈 I know she’s a delight to hang out with….

  102. 102
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    The spectacular sand dunes at Donald Trump’s golf course in Aberdeenshire are expected to be stripped of their special conservation status. Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH), a government conservation agency, has recommended that the dunes lose their designation as a site of special scientific interest (SSSI) because they have been “partially destroyed” by the course. SNH has begun a three-month consultation on removing its SSSI status.

    The move has long been expected but the Trump Organization is furious, accusing the agency of a politically motivated stitch-up. The area, described by Trump as the “great dunes of Scotland” when he first proposed building a £1bn resort on the site, is part of an extensive mobile dune system known as the Foveran Links, which stretches north up the coast.

    The dunes are among the highest in Scotland and shift over time. Many were bulldozed flat or reshaped by Trump to make way for fairways and greens. Maram grass was planted on fix the dunes in place, only for the planted areas to die off or get smothered by sand during winter storms.

    The agency has said it wants to remove the golf course area from the Forevan Links SSSI. It disclosed in late 2017 that it was reviewing the dunes’ status after experts in coastal ecology said the area used by Trump no longer deserved special protection.


  103. 103
    Quinerly says:

    @Betty Cracker: I read that too. She also wore black turtlenecks because Steve Jobs did.

  104. 104
    Another Scott says:

    A good, long, piece by Dean Baker on selling the Green New Deal:


    People familiar with my writing know that I have long argued that the upward redistribution was by design. Just to take the most obvious example, we are routinely told that manufacturing workers in the United States and other wealthy countries were destined to get whacked for the simple reason that there are hundreds of millions of people in the developing world who are willing to do the same work for a fraction of the pay.

    In that story, the downward pressure on the wages of manufacturing workers was an inevitable outcome of globalization. Unless we want to block globalization, we can’t have manufacturing workers in the U.S. and Europe getting $40 and $50 an hour in pay and benefits when workers in China, Vietnam, and elsewhere will do the same work for less than one tenth of this amount.

    The loss of these high-paying jobs for workers with less education is just an unfortunate side effect of globalization. The downward pressure on the wages of less-educated workers more generally that results from the loss of manufacturing jobs is also just another bad side-effect. But hey, these people are all better off than the under-employed workers in the developing world, so it would be greedy and wrongheaded to try to stop globalization to protect less-educated workers in rich countries.

    The fact that there are hundreds of millions of workers in the developing world who are prepared to work for much lower pay than our manufacturing workers is true, but there are also millions of bright and ambitious people in the developing world who would be happy to train to U.S. standards and work as doctors, dentists, lawyers and other elite professions at a small fraction of the pay of the people who currently hold these jobs.

    For some reason, this obviously true fact about the world never appears in the New York Times, Washington Post, or other major news outlets. (The Planet Money folks have done a couple of segments on this point on NPR in reference to doctors’ pay.)

    When I raise this point in discussions with other economists or policy types, almost invariably people think I am joking. If I can convince them I am serious, they usually get angry and ridicule the idea that we could get competent doctors and other professionals from the developing world at much lower pay.

    The arguments sometimes border on racism – that people in India or China couldn’t train to our standards – or the absurd, that there are no barriers to foreign professionals working in the United States. Sometimes we do get to a situation where they make the valid point, that creating agreed upon standards that ensure quality is difficult.


    Excellent points, and much more at the link. It would be good if the major candidates were better informed about his work and took it to heart. (The choice isn’t between “Capitalism” and “Socialism” or between “unfettered Capitalism” and something else. We have a system that was designed and constructed to be this way because certain people benefit from it.) We need to frame the debate that way and not argue definitions.


  105. 105
    Kay says:


    This may be a female thing but I warmed a little to Gillibrand because she seems like a harried working mother :)

    I feel like she may show up in shoes that don’t match, which I would love.

  106. 106
    MomSense says:

    I’d like to welcome everyone to the Khive! We are lucky as Democrats that we have so many great candidates, but Kamala is just better. She has the presence we need not just to defeat Trump but to rebuild our alliances and to make the case against the ethno nationalism that is on the rise in so many places. When I looked at that stage last night, she was the only one who was presidential.

    I like Warren. She’s my second favorite but I don’t think she has the presence we need at this time. I also think her skills and expertise are much more suited to legislation. I’d love a Harris presidency with Warren as the new lion of the Senate.

  107. 107
    zhena gogolia says:


    Okay, there’s the proof that this is the Russian-approved line of attack.

  108. 108
    Immanentize says:

    I thought you already had a mud bath? Just add a pump.

  109. 109
    zhena gogolia says:


    I’m with you.

  110. 110
    MomSense says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Oprah Winfrey also did voice training. Every theater person/actor does voice training. It’s a smart thing to do.

  111. 111
    zhena gogolia says:

    Harris’s exchange with Biden wasn’t just a gotcha moment, although I am quite sure she planned for the opportunity (this to me is a plus, not a minus). It had an undercurrent of deep feeling on both sides — it was real, not the usual boring boilerplate (which the moderators were doing their best to promote; God, I hate that “raise your hands” thing!).

  112. 112
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Immanentize: But I gotta get the heat in there and for the full experience it needs to smell like rotten eggs.

    I’m outta here guys. Have a good decent middling day

  113. 113
    Shalimar says:

    @Betty Cracker: Now all i can think of is Marianne Williamson riding the unicorn from last season’s Legends of Tomorrow. It hypnotizes people with rainbow sparkles and then gores them to death.

  114. 114
    Kay says:

    Marshall Cohen
    ‏Verified account
    7h7 hours ago
    NEW VIDEO: Reporter asks Trump if he’ll tell Putin not to meddle in the 2020 election. Trump turns to Putin, smirks, and kind of jokingly says, “don’t meddle.”

    Really, fuck him. Elections don’t belong to him. He needs to tell one of the corrupt, incompetent low quality hires to start doing their fucking jobs and secure election systems. Get on it. Put one day’s work in this year. Do we need to pass a hat and hire a contractor to do their jobs?

  115. 115
    zhena gogolia says:


    This is good. My analogy was to “Sabrina the Teenage Witch,” but nobody picked up on that.

  116. 116
    MomSense says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Honestly a Harris Dump debate would be epic. She’ll have him sputtering and looking like a scared fool in
    no time.

  117. 117
    leeleeFL says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Hence, my silence. This is perhaps the most insane situation I have seen in 68 years of living. And I have seen things

  118. 118
    zhena gogolia says:


    He has no intention of doing anything about it. He’s with Putin to ask him to do it again, of course.

  119. 119
    zhena gogolia says:

    I’ve asked several of my highly-educated friends if they can remember why thousands of Russians poured onto the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg in freezing cold for weeks on end to protest. Not one of them could tell me.

    IT WAS BECAUSE OF PUTIN FALSIFYING ELECTION RESULTS. This is his specialty. He’ll do it again.

  120. 120
    montanareddog says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: The Corpulent Car Crash of Queens can even turn sand dunes to shit; truly, his one superpower is beyond amazing!

  121. 121
    Kathleen says:

    @Betty Cracker: 1. Her focus on Biden sent message to Bernie that she considered him irrelevant for all intents and purposes in that debate. 2. She also signalled to him to be prepared when he @her.

  122. 122
    Kathleen says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Glad to hear you’re had some relief. Do you know if cramping can be side effect of blood thinner meds?

  123. 123
    Quinerly says:

    @Kay: that’s sweet. But that shoe thing could be all that whiskey she talks about. 😈
    As I said, I don’t like criticizing things we have no control over, especially in women. It’s mostly the contrast with Kamala’s. Voices/accents are important about perception, though. And, Gillibrand’s voice truly bugs me. I can’t get around it. I was cringing this morning when she was on Morning Joe. I have a very strong, Eastern NC Southern accent, with a touch of Outer Banks “Hoi Toider.” Here in St Louis it was very unusual from the beginning. For some reason some people thought I was from New Zealand or Australia. In first year law school, students would turn around and look the first times I spoke. Embarrassing then. When I started trying cases, I leaned into it, though with juries and judges. Lots of comments both ways over 30 plus years here. I get it. I’ve been on the receiving end. 😎

  124. 124
    Kay says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    They probably won’t do their jobs anyway, but “the boss” is sending a clear message to the low quality hires that this isn’t a problem. It took them two years to even tell us there were incursions into state election systems. We are wholly dependent on state government and state law enforcement for election systems. They are not doing their jobs.

  125. 125
    Quinerly says:

    @Shalimar: I bet she rides side saddle.

  126. 126
    Peale says:

    @RAVEN: can undocumented immigrants vote? If no, then it doesn’t mobilize anyone. It feels good, but if the only voters it mobilizes are the ones opposed to it, it’s not worth campaigning on it.

  127. 127
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Betty Cracker: “Somebody is getting cookies they don’t deserve” is a powerful motivator in this country, and there’s this weird idea on the right that basic health care is cookies. On the other hand, Trump’s win convinced a lot of pundits that the majority of Americans are hardcore xenophobes who want to see undocumented immigrants die, and they’re actually not. It’s just that the ones who are are getting worse.

  128. 128
  129. 129
    raven says:

    @Quinerly: Down east. My bride is from central Virginia and can almost sound like she’s from Maine. She says “hoooose” for house and “err” for our.

  130. 130
    Kay says:


    Voices/accents are important about perception,

    I agree. I am particularly tuned to people’s voices. I think we have to recognize with women candidates that things that are not their fault may be their problem. It’s not fair, but it is something we have to admit and deal with. I have had to learn to slow my speech in my work because I get worked up, I get faster, and my voice rises. It works, too, but it takes practice.

    I did not understand why someone on Clinton’s team didn’t tell her that her words often didn’t match her facial expression. I think people interpret that as insincerity. I don’t think that’s what it was with her- I think she was so criticized for so long that she has adopted a kind of armor but I noticed it every time I saw her speak.

  131. 131
    Shalimar says:

    @Baud: It’s Alabama. They already charge women for those too. This isn’t a one-off atrocity. I don’t remember the exact statistic, but that one prosecutor’s office alone out of 68 in the state has charged dozens of women for miscarriages in the last few years. Statewide the number has to be in the hundreds.

  132. 132
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Quinerly: It’s a high-pitched woman’s voice. Lots of women artificially lower their voices in professional contexts so men will take them seriously. I’ve noticed my wife does it on the phone–if she doesn’t, some people are going to call her “sweetie” and remark on her little-girl voice.

    Gillibrand doesn’t bother. I respect that though I suppose it won’t help her.

  133. 133
    Spanky says:


    I have a very strong, Eastern NC Southern accent, with a touch of Outer Banks “Hoi Toider.” Here in St Louis it was very unusual from the beginning. For some reason some people thought I was from New Zealand or Australia.

    Remnants of the earliest settlers from Cornwall & Devonshire, iirc.

  134. 134

    @Kay: I actually did that once. One navy shoe, one black one.

  135. 135

    @MomSense: I can hear him now: “Excuse me. Excuse me.”

  136. 136
    Mai Naem mobile says:

    @Bostonian: it will be the stupid Willie brown stuff.

  137. 137
  138. 138
    Quinerly says:

    @Spanky: yep. I fear I could be losing it a bit. My entire life, I talked to my parents everyday. So the accent was renewed daily just by circumstances. 😎 Lost my dad in 2008 and my mom in 2015. At age 92, there was hardly any differences in our voices. People said that they couldn’t tell the difference in us on the phone. After a few drinks, the Hoi Tider/Down East accent really comes out in me. Or so I have been told. 😈

  139. 139
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    The side eye Mayor Pete was giving the woo lady when she was babbling is priceless.


    He was a half step away from asking her, “what’s the frequency, Kenneth”

  140. 140
    Betty Cracker says:

    @MomSense: Yeah, but Holmes did it specifically to lower her voice because ingrained sexism disadvantages women in business. That was my point.

  141. 141
    MomSense says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I think he will get enraged at not being able to bully her and that’s the only skill he has in a debate. Once you burst the bully bubble – they become pathetic.

  142. 142
    MomSense says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Disadvantages women in broadcasting and every facet of life.

  143. 143
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Bostonian: She’s being attacked because ‘black males do not like her, truancy actions, didn’t fight mortgage problems in 08-09 hard enuff, she’s not really black’ ETC ETC ETC

  144. 144
    Quinerly says:

    @Kay: excellent points and observations (as always).

  145. 145
    Quinerly says:

    @raven: and what a lovely bride you gots😎
    I’ve seen those pics…. Love the wedding ones. 💚💙💜

  146. 146
    TS (the original) says:


    The last thing most people want to see is immigrants or visitors to our country die because they can’t get healthcare.

    For most visitors it’s cheaper to pay for an early flight home (if they can fly) than use US healthcare without insurance. We visited 50 years ago, one became ill & we weren’t even allowed to sit in the doctor’s waiting room until we paid $150 up front. This was when a visit to the doc in my part of the world cost under $30. It still only costs $50-75 without the govt system.

  147. 147
    Kay says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Hah! I almost did it but the shoes had slightly different heels so I caught it. I love when you recognize the syndrome. I was with a friend and she was rooting thru her purse and stacking shit on the table she pulled out a tiny Christmas stocking. Shoved in there six months ago at some kid event, I reckon! Mine used to run up to me and hand me things they didn’t want to carry. Just extend to me- “I believe you are the keeper of the things” :)

  148. 148
    MomSense says:


    He’s not wrong but it would be so easy to counter with the fact that we are paying for their healthcare now – but in the most expensive least efficient way possible – at emergency departments. I think if ever there were a time to make the case when our government is spending 775 per day per child to torture and abuse them, we can pay a fraction of that for a healthy country. We are also facing a measles epidemic and increases of TB and hepatitis.

    The truth will set you free but she must be stated.

  149. 149
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @debbie: Mostly lost any hope of ‘humane Evangelicals’. Ones who are have seemingly left that group. See ChrissyStroop blog. She was LGBT who has come out as transgender. Has impressive recent post when she came out.

  150. 150
    JR says:

    @E: MSNBC is not your friend.

    People really need to get that straight; they have some liberal voices but that certainly does not make them a liberal network. None of the large scale news organizations are.

  151. 151
    Kathleen says:

    @debbie: I posted tweet from Jennifer Rubin last night which basically said same thing. She said Repubs would tie continued suffering of the children to Pelosi & Dems had they not voted for the bill and Pelosi wanted to make sure they could get some relief as soon as possible.

  152. 152
    MomSense says:


    Oh yeah my bag was always full of toys, half eaten snacks, sippy cups, and whatever they didn’t feel like carrying anymore. One time I was so engrossed in talking to the woman at the motor vehicles counter I didn’t notice the kids had found the tampon stash and had unwrapped them and were flinging them around until they realized they looked like parachutes and managed to put their power rangers in the strings and turned them into power para troopers. That drivers license photo was just as you are imagining.

  153. 153
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Kay: Very blunt statement of truth. Thank you!

  154. 154
    BC in Illinois says:


    very strong, Eastern NC Southern accent, with a touch of Outer Banks “Hoi Toider.”

    As someone who lived in NC, now living in StL, with a daughter on the Outer Banks, who has (now) heard your accent, I can confirm this.

    The anachronistically named BC in Illinois.

  155. 155
    Wapiti says:

    @Don Quijote: Malaria, Chagas Disease, and Babelosis is what I’m asked about when I give blood. All occur in Central America. With Climate Change, they could get established in the US – if we don’t have the public health sector working on it.

    And not just from undocumented persons; tourists can carry these things home as well.

  156. 156
    Barbara says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: He might be too young to actually have REM on his play list. But if he had done that he might have gained some credibility with us somewhat older folks!

  157. 157
    Quinerly says:

    @BC in Illinois: such a great time last night. Apologies for standing over you and Lapassionara while talking. Lay out of our seating and I have a tendency to jump right in and make a space. It can be off putting to some but I so enjoy meeting new people. Hearing new life stories… My mom used to say that I never met a stranger….
    Have a great weekend!

  158. 158
    Sab says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I do that all the time. I have weird feet and Naturalizer shoes. They all look the same in my closet in early a.m.

  159. 159
    Barbara says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: I don’t get how white people (or anyone else) could not get that when black people walk around in their daily lives, no one stops to ask whether they are “really” black because one of their parents is white or their father wasn’t born in America, but from Africa, the original source of black people in the U.S., or Jamaica, where other Africans were shipped as part of the slave trade. I am white, but it’s crazy to think that a person’s experience as black in the U.S. is defined by the nuances in their parentage.

  160. 160
    Cacti says:

    One thing I found interesting about the Harris/Biden exchange one day later is that Joe didn’t really go after that “I was a public defender, you were a prosecutor” line very long or with much vigor.

    Flustered? Or sticking to his practice of not speaking badly of fellow dems?

    Because our enemies have shown that they think it’s a potential vulnerability for her with the AA and Latino vote.

  161. 161

    My two cents from the insta-polls that came out after the debate: I worry a lot of the pro-Harris bump was from preconfigured biases people had going into the debates. Although the weak numbers for both Biden AND Bernie disprove that: they had a lot of fans going in and it looks like both lost a handful on the way out.

    The biggest takeaway was that Harris was the one on Night Two most willing to punch early and hard, satisfying a lot of the Democratic base who yearn for a fighter to go up and literally punch the Orange Shitgibbon on the nose. Warren came close during her night, but Harris was clearly a more aggressive and determined debater.

    Biden’s weakness as a campaigner/debater showed through. His political skills as a backroom dealer does not work on a stage where being compromising and congenial are hindrances.

    Bernie may have had moments of passion and sticking to his issues, but he showed vulnerability on gun safety and he’s not winning anybody outside of his already established fanbase.

  162. 162

    @Sab: Yeah, it’s dark in the morning. In the winter, it was easier because I wore boots back and forth to work and had a couple pairs of shoes stashed in my desk drawer.

  163. 163
    PST says:

    It worries me a tiny bit that even our enemies say Harris won big. I just got done reading the Post and I see that Hugh Hewitt and Ed Rogers say so. Usually you can count on them for disingenuous sabotage. But in this case, it must have been so undeniable that even the remarkably stupid Rogers knew he couldn’t pretend otherwise.

  164. 164
    Kelly says:

    Harris and Warren are my favorites. Is Harris new enough to the national stage that the wingnut wurlitzer won’t have time to make a charactercher of her stick? I think his newness helped Obama, Harris might have a similar advantage.

  165. 165
    Shalimar says:

    @PST: If you’re wanting a Republican who thinks it was a negative for Harris to point out Biden’s passive past racism, look to Joe Scarborough. Per Joe, it was very depressing that Dems attack each other instead of Trump.

    Unlike just about everyone else, who saw Harris’s performance as an obvious sign she can take Trump apart in a debate.

  166. 166
    PST says:

    @Kelly: I think there is something else going on with Harris in addition to newness, and it is reflected in the comment from Josh Marshall that Ozark quoted. Trump’s superpower has always been his skill at belittling and humiliating. He has a way of drawing his claque of followers into pattern of ridicule that can undercut even pillars of the establishment like poor old low-energy Jeb. Of all the democrats, I think Harris might be the most difficult to pull that kind of stunt on. I can’t quite explain it, but her persona and her story offer a better defense. I’m not saying a Biden or a Warren couldn’t overcome this, but I find it hard to imagine how Trump puts a stamp on Harris without making himself look terrible to some of the voters he needs. Of course, racism and misogyny don’t hurt him with his core supporters, but they help peel off some of the country-club republicans at the margin. My bet is that she somehow has the most resistance to the Trump disease, a quality completely independent of her record or her stands.

  167. 167
    different-church-lady says:

    Dem voters need to be convinced that a woman can face Trump onstage and take him apart.

    Didn’t Hillary already do that?

  168. 168
    Kelly says:

    @PST: The country club Republicans I know are looking like bubbles under a shoddy paint job. May be able to peel them of with a thumbnail. They really hate hearing the quiet parts loud.

  169. 169
    PST says:

    @Shalimar: Scarborough has a unique perspective, that’s for sure. At least he calls himself an ex-republican now, and he pounds away relentlessly at Trump, so I try to just be amused. Biden’s wounds are largely self-inflicted. It should have been easy to make the point that you can cooperate with opponents on some points of agreement. This goes back to before Biden, but there were southern senators who were helpful on Medicare but had to be fought tooth and nail on civil rights. It is just inexplicable, though, why Biden has to confess to liking some of those guys. That hurts him more than any particular vote.

  170. 170
    Kelly says:

    @PST: I rarely watch news on TV and was going to wait until next year to watch any campaign events. I might have to catch Harris’s next appearance.

  171. 171
    cynthia ackerman says:

    I didn’t realize until last night that KH grew up in Berkeley.

    I did too, three years her senior. I was a white second grader (Cragmont) when busing started.

  172. 172
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Another Scott: Strangely, I don’t find myself bothered by the mere sound of women’s voices. There are some men’s voices that make me gag reflexively. GWB’s was one. Trump’s is another. Come to think of it, I don’t like Senator Sanders’s voice, either.

  173. 173
    EthylEster says:


    Really, fuck him.

    My goodness, Kay, you are taking up the mantle of efg

  174. 174
    Belafon says:

    @different-church-lady: Yes, but she “lost” (the EC) and Trump got away with some things he shouldn’t have.

  175. 175
    Barbara says:


    It is just inexplicable, though, why Biden has to confess to liking some of those guys.

    He was in the Senate for too long and he’s a nice guy. He finds it possible to divorce his personal and professional leanings in ways that are alien to an increasing percentage of Democratic voters. For him, the Senate was a boy’s club — I mean, didn’t he basically say that in making a comment about meeting people naked in the gym? Or am I merging him with someone else?

  176. 176
    Michael Cain says:

    @Cacti: The problem for Biden using his public defender shtick is that it was something he did briefly 50 years ago. Given his age, I’m sure the campaign managers are constantly nagging him to not talk about stuff farther back than some limit, so he doesn’t sound like my great uncle on a nostalgia jag. This isn’t the first subject where he’s been at serious risk of coming off as always looking back at things, not looking forward to what he can do. I’m 11 years younger than he is and struggle with it sometimes.

  177. 177
    Captain C says:

    @zhena gogolia: “Vladi, just keep the loans and the little Svetlanas coming. I’ll do whatever you tell me.” — DJT

  178. 178
    Hoodie says:

    @PST: Biden’s biggest liability is age-related decline. I’m 10 years younger and I know I have lost quite a few steps. Harris did herself a lot of good by showing that she’s up to the job, but the issues she attacked Biden on won’t hurt him as much as his not being prepared for this type of question. People know that Joe is a dinosaur, but one of those friendly brontosauruses that eats trees and bushes. He just did not look like the Biden of old last night, who typically diffuses stuff like this with a laugh or a smaltzy Scranton anecdote that shows he realizes he fucked up but he’s a good guy after all. Last night was not encouraging if you’re in his camp, but I’d give him another few more debates to show this was an aberration. Even Obama had bad debates, after all.

  179. 179
    Aleta says:

    a nice picture (twitter)

    Indivisibiles and Democrats from @AreaGrapevine and @northeastdems1 watching the debates!

  180. 180
    EthylEster says:

    So…are RAVEN and raven and Raven the same person?
    Asking for a friend!

  181. 181
    Skepticat says:

    I didn’t plan to watch the debate, preferring to wait until the group starts to thin out, as there’s a helluva lot of chaff in this wheat. I did, however, and though the yelling over one another bothered me, I was impressed and heartened. I already lean toward the pragmatism and commonsense intelligence of Warren and Harris, but this was my first exposure to Buttigieg, who really impressed me. Now, if only those who are winnowed out will run for Senate.

  182. 182
    James E Powell says:


    If anything, I think it will peel away the more moderate Trump supporters. That 27% is bound to decrease. It will also be a defining moment for the more “humane” evangelicals.

    There are no moderate Trump supporters and none of them will ever be peeled away. The 27% increased in 2016 because one of the candidates was female. Not one of the “evangelicals” has ever shown any humanity. There is no hope that a significant number of people who voted for Trump or the Republicans are going to switch to any of our candidates.

    The RWers will be screaming “[Democratic candidate] is going to give free stuff to illegal immigrants!!!” no matter who the candidate is or what the candidate’s policy proposals are. And the Republican voters will believe it and repeat it. The press/media will allow them to repeat it without correction or context. Recall that a congress-creature yelled “Liar!” at the president on this exact same thing and became a Republican hero because their voters wanted to see someone yell at that N!

  183. 183
    Immanentize says:

    @EthylEster: Usually.

    But NOT “Raven Onthill.” That guy is a jerk.

  184. 184
    J R in WV says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’ve got screws and bolts and plates and shit, and don’t even think about it.

    Two titanium/plastic shoulder joints, expensive ones, took a year for the both of them. Much better than bone-on-bone misery of the original equipment. Between building things and hammer and chisel rock collecting, wore ’em plumb out. Hurt so bad that surgery was better…

  185. 185
    PST says:

    @Michael Cain:

    I’m 11 years younger than he is and struggle with it sometimes.

    Me too! 1953 was a good year to be born, but I agree with Hoodie that I can feel ways in which I have lost a step. One of them, especially, is energy. I think a 75-year-old can be an excellent senator but being president is a much bigger leap. Warren seems to be proving that she still has quickness and passion, so to some degree it has to be case by case. I recently finished Andrew Roberts’s biography of Churchill. Pure hagiography, but even he couldn’t disguise how much capability Churchill had lost before he finally gave up office.

  186. 186
    J R in WV says:

    @My Side of Town:

    Betty Cracker:

    Marianne Williamson didn’t Uber back to the hotel after the debate. Love appeared in the form of a radiant unicorn, and she rode it home.

    you: Maybe Marianne would be good for HHS.

    Me: Marianne is an anti-vaccination health guru who thinks you can cure cancer with meditation and special herbs which only she can harvest by the moonlight of a full moon on the solstice. She isn’t qualified to run a Brownie Scout troop.

  187. 187

    @J R in WV: Agreed. She is a crank and did not belong on that stage neither did Andrew Yang.

  188. 188

    How many grifters and cranks has Oprah foisted on the American public? I have lost count.

  189. 189
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: Twitter left is going after Harris hard today–a lot of people there who love Warren really hate her, contrary to what you see in a lot of other fora. If Harris is nominated it will become a tough place to be.

  190. 190
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Andrew Yang has future-thinking, practical ideas – like his “Freedom Dividend”. Ms Williamson has a lot of woo that has no place anywhere near a government agency. They don’t actually have much in common, other than both being also-rans in this primary.

  191. 191
    Bupalos says:

    @randy khan: it’s a great opportunity to discuss the race obsession of white culture, if the candidate has the right jujitsu training. The wrong way to do it is to oppose it straightforwardly with disengenuous displays of adhering to stereotypically black culture- that’s actually what these trolls are baiting for.

    “You’re welcome to spend your days trying to measure my DNA to determine where I’m supposed to fit in your race charts. Me, I’m too busy being Kamala, a woman who’s seen the reality of your charts all her life, and knows a little something about why you do this.”

  192. 192

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: They are both wasting our time with their nonsense right now. He didn’t impress me much as a candidate for presidency. We don’t need a novice politician, one is enough.

  193. 193
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Matt McIrvin: is it warren supporters who are attacking her?

    I know the Bern-outs spent all winter and fall smearing her. That’s their usual M.O. – smear competitors of their cult leader.

  194. 194
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Remember the PUMAs? That sucked, this will be worse, but it won’t hurt us too badly in the end. Harris is the Obama of this election, and she’s just getting started.

    It didn’t feel like Obama would win in a landslide until he actually did it. We’ll have to carry forward with hope and faith this time too, in the face of fear, doubt, negativity, and cowardice. But 2008 showed us it is possible.

    Yes we can.

  195. 195
    jonas says:

    @QUINERLY: I have no particular bone to pick with Gillibrand, either — she’s my senator, in fact — but the main problem with her candidacy is a shoulder-shrugging “why?” Other than being a junior senator from a large, blue state, I still can’t figure out what, exactly, she brings to the table. She doesn’t really have any signature issues like Insley. She’s not a policy maven like Warren. She doesn’t have a lot of “firsts” under her belt like Harris, or a tenth of Harris’s charisma. I would have much preferred her to stay in NY, doing a lot of local political stuff, developing constituencies (esp. upstate), and preparing to eventually replace Cuomo.

  196. 196
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I’d rather listen to Yang and his ideas than to Swalwell, Hickenlooper, DeBlasio, Gabbard, Sanders, etc.

    Sure he’s an also-ran, but he’s one of the more interesting and thoughtful also-rans.

    But I agree, let’s winnow the field soon. (Though we have another 6 months of this stage in the race…)

  197. 197
    Hoodie says:

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: By and large, presidents are not elected for having ideas. They’re mostly elected for the perception that they can make ideas happen. It’s a management position, not R&D. Yang may well have some management chops, but not in politics. In contrast, Warren has a lot of ideas, but she has political accomplishments that give them more credibility.

  198. 198
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Yes, in one case a longtime friend of mine who lives in California.

  199. 199
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I liked his discussion on the VAT and guarantee income, calling it a “trickle up economy”

  200. 200
    VeniceRiley says:

    @Betty Cracker: Jonathan Allen @jonallendc is in a multi-tweet takedown of Biden on this topic this morning, covering the backstory of his actions. It isn’t pretty for Biden, I must say. And that’s why Harris, who wisely held her fire on this issue until the debate, was brilliant. If she chimed in while it was a Booker/Biden kerfuffle, it would have been buried in a day. Now it’s a national attention story on a night where she won. Commanding and masterful in the way she took him down. Even I thought it was going to be some story about some Suzie in the audience; so, when she said “and that little girl … was me.” I just. Wow! What a moment. That’s when even Biden knew she had scored a knockout blow. His response time where he stopped early in a panic because he felt like he was digging his own hole with a suddenly oven hot shovel?

    He’s an old dog with no new tricks, and his post debate “de facto vs de jure” blather was even more terrible.
    Stories like this, and Anita Hill are developing into a narrative about him that is not pretty.

    And Harris is getting so much TV facetime in the coverage this morning! Her team putting out that childhood picture of her and already on the tshirts in her store. Just a masterful setup. Every other candidate needs to prepare for what she will do if her attention turns to them.

    Harris also skillfully shut Chuck Todd up. All the love for that! “As the only black person on this stage …”

  201. 201
    Ruckus says:

    @Chyron HR:
    Seems like some folks never can make the connection of what comes out of BS’s mouth often has little connection to his non position position. It seems that maybe he’s really not all that smart, just pissed off that he’s not in charge. I’ve got the strange feeling that his ego is second only to the massively infantile drumpf one.

  202. 202
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @Hoodie: Warren is not an “also-ran”.

  203. 203
    Ruckus says:


    I’d love a Harris presidency with Warren as the new lion of the Senate.

    I agree. I like them both but they have different strengths. Warren is about what we need to do – the minutia. Harris is about making it happen – leading.
    The job of president is leading the nation, coalescing the ideals and details and getting them to work. The senate majority leader is about getting the other 99 pontificating egos to work together and make the country better. And work with the house majority leader to make ideas into laws. Who could be better than the person with the most and best ideas?

  204. 204
    Ruckus says:

    Really. You wouldn’t expect the man who impregnated her to have any responsibility would you? Or the person who pulled the trigger to have any responsibility? Geeze, what are you a human being? It’s men and guns, look what would happen if you actually expected either of them to have any level of responsibility…… The world might began to actually find itself being realistic and somewhere closer to honest. Can’t have that.

  205. 205
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @jonas: I would say workplace sexism and sexual harassment are Gillibrand’s signature issues. And she looked like an unstoppable election juggernaut for a while, who could win over non-traditional-Democratic constituencies, in New York state, though it doesn’t seem to be translating nationally. I wanted her to run in 2016 but she may have just missed the train.

  206. 206
    pluky says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: VAT, like all consumption taxes, is DEEPLY regressive. His statement of only $3000/year for lower income households is like 10%-20% of their gross income, and will exceed any discretionary income they might have.

  207. 207
    Ruckus says:

    It wasn’t all that long ago your parentage determined what you would do for a living and what/where you would be on some scale against which everyone was measured. Not even that many generations ago. No, it wasn’t actually important, but it was a consideration in everyone’s lives. You had a station and breaking out of that was almost impossible. You had to move to somewhere no one knew you. And getting a start some place where no on knew you could be incredibly difficult. That only really started changing around 150 yrs ago and really got going after WWII – half that time – 75 yrs ago. 100 yrs ago it was difficult to move across the country. Today you can drive it in 3 days or fly in less than 5 hrs. Then it was a horse or a horse drawn wagon. Now a new start is much easier. Some times it only takes a move across town or not even a move at all. There are more of us and it’s easier to blend in or for it not to matter that you stand out. I think a lot of rural folks like that their little worlds really haven’t changed as much, change scares them, even if it makes their lives easier and/or better. We are too busy living, they are too busy staying the same.
    Think of someone who would walk a thousand miles to go to a new country that likely a lot fewer number of people wouldn’t be trying to shoot at them, or starve them, where they could get a job and where health care was better than nothing and there are supermarkets full of food and all they had to do was leave everything they’d ever known. And they go willingly.

  208. 208
    PW says:

    @NotMax: Well, to be fair, that foetus WAS threatening the shooter so she had to stand her ground. God, this is sick!

  209. 209
    Ruckus says:

    @Miss Bianca:
    Snotty men really just aren’t likable.
    And Biden, drumpf and BS are all snotty. Biden is by far the least snotty of the 3 but in his aging life, the snotty is taking front and center. Snotty here is the concept that no matter what they have accomplished in life that you have to like, admire and follow them because reasons. That is not leadership of any kind, it’s just snotty egocentric bullshit.

  210. 210
    Doug R says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Marianne Williamson didn’t Uber back to the hotel after the debate. Love appeared in the form of a radiant unicorn, and she rode it home.

  211. 211
    Eolirin says:

    @pluky: It is, but it’s less of an issue when it’s tied to subsidizing necesaary and expensive services like education and healht care and anti poverty measures. You implement it correctly and they get it back and then some.

    It has certain benefits over other ways to raise the kinds of revenue you need and it’s very hard to game. It’s worked very well in Europe for a reason. But we probably also need improvements to our labor laws at the same time to be able to properly get there.

  212. 212
    MCA1 says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I think Harris might be the only one who would turn to him and say “No, you’re not excused. I’m speaking here and I don’t appreciate the rude interruptions. Why do you act like that all the time? I’m the Democratic nominee for President of the United States – show some respect.” And probably do it with a slight smile on her face so it came off as both stern and polite at the same time. She would also not be afraid to be on a debate stage with him and press him about his lying, or his open betrayals of his oath of office, or whatever else. Others might do that, too, but for now I perceive her style of doing so as having a more powerful impact and impression. She just seems to project moral authority and easily command respect.

    KH has been my preference since the beginning. I’m on Team Broken Glass, but her forthright, no nonsense authenticity, combined with obvious charisma and a shut down the b.s. before it can take hold fighter’s mentality are what we need. Warren’s policy chops and Buttigieg’s moral appeals are attractive, and I like things about Castro and Booker and others, but Harris’ response to Savannah Guthrie’s horseshit framing of a question on student debt forgiveness last night is why we need her. She actually addressed the fact that it’s horseshit framing, and that there’s a double standard, AND she managed to offer a scathing criticism of GOP policy on a completely separate issue, all in a few seconds. Go ahead and answer the question, but you have to do what she did first. The refs need to be worked from the D side, hard, for a long time, if we ever want to return to some sense of fairness in the way Democratic politicians and policies are reported on.

  213. 213
    Eolirin says:

    I am very much hoping that after these debates Harris manages to break out, Biden and Bernie slip and this becomes a race between Warren and her.

    And I hope Harris ends up winning it. I love Warren, so don’t get me wrong on this, but her plans are too specific for a President. They’re what should be coming out of a Senate majority leader. And that worries me.

    We need to win not just 2020 but 2022 and 2024 as well. Disillusionment over precieved failed promises to dramatically transform numerous parts of the way our country works in those first two years, when we may not even be able to get control of the Senate back, would be devastating. We need someone who’s looking for ways to get things done using the power of the executive branch, not someone looking to transform things through the legislature. I think Harris would be better at that than Warren.

  214. 214
    different-church-lady says:

    HARRIS: “Americans don’t want to watch a food fight.”

    The problem (and it’s a deep problem) is that 50% of the voters, 75% of the media and 99% of cable news very much do want there to be a food fight.

    We can’t again make the mistake of believing the sober half of the electorate is more than half. It’s going to take something to convince portions of the other half to stop being juvenile. Mere adult demeanor won’t cut it.

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