Test the Damn Coatdress!!!!!!

Earlier today, New York Magazine reported that longtime Elle advice columnist, E. Jean Carroll, was raped by the President 25 years ago in the ladies changing room at Bergdorf Goodman’s in New York.

The article is gripping, angering, and frustrating to read. And I’m a guy whose never been sexually assaulted – and yes, that happens to guys sometimes. I cannot imagine how hard it was to read for those, women or men, who have been sexually assaulted and/or raped.

I want to focus on something, however, that I’ve not yet seen addressed: that the coatdress that Ms. Carroll wore when she alleges the President raped her has been hanging on her closet door ever since. (emphasis mine)

The Donna Karan coatdress still hangs on the back of my closet door, unworn and unlaundered since that evening.

TEST THE DAMN COATDRESS!!!!!!!!!!

If someone had accused President Obama or President Clinton or a prominent Democratic elected or appointed official, hell if someone had accused Secretary Clinton, of sexually assaulting and/or raping them, and had also reported they had the clothing they wore that day and it has been unworn and unwashed ever since, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, David Bossie, Karl Rove – okay, Rove would hire someone as he can’t waddle that fast, Matt Schlapp – possibly same problem as Rove, Rudy Giuliani, Jacob Wohl, Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, Chuck “Rage Furby” Johnson, whichever Breitbrat is on duty this weekend, and 1/2 a dozen other people affiliated with the  Republican Party, the conservative movement, the alt-right, the Trump campaign or other supporting organization like his SuperPAC, Leonard Leo, Don McGahn on behalf of his real boss Mitch McConnell, and Matt Gaetz in an attempt to get Gym Jordan and Mark Meadows to stop wedgying him in the cloak room and giving him swirlies in the House locker room, would all be converging on the accusers home to GET THE DAMN COATDRESS AND TEST IT FOR THE DNA OF THE PERSON ACCUSED OF COMMITTING THE SEXUAL ASSAULT AND/OR RAPE!!!!!!

This isn’t chutes and ladders. It isn’t tic tac toe. There are no Marquess of Queensbury Rules. No one cares about good ring generalship, there’s no four knock down rule, you’re not going to be saved by the bell. What is needed here is effective aggression!

Get the coatdress. Have it tested for DNA. That is the only way you’re ever going to see any accountability here. Because as riveting as Carroll’s article is, it will not bring accountability. It will simply disappear into the 24/7/365 information panopticon that the President and his supporters have created. By tomorrow or Sunday it will be gone, surpassed by something to do with Iran. Or tariffs with China. Or that his golf game got rained out.

Test the damn coatdress!!!

Open thread!






68 replies
  1. 1
    hells littlest angel says:

    Unless a DNA test can determine how old the DNA is, I don’t see the value.

  2. 2
    Keith P. says:

    Spoiler alert – Trump’s dick was so small, she wasn’t sure if he went in all the way or halfway.

  3. 3

    I don’t want to live on this planet any more.

  4. 4
    chris says:

    Maya Wiley said that on Chris Hayes show. Gonna be interesting.

    PSA E Jean Carroll will be on Lawrence tonight.

  5. 5

    @hells littlest angel: I guess the age of the DNA only matters if you’re a Republican.

  6. 6
    Immanentize says:

    @hells littlest angel: What?! So Trump’s semen could have gotten on it any old time? Huh? You make no sense, Laddie.

  7. 7
    Wag says:

    I am dreaming of the knots that Lindsay is going to tie himself into to distance his aggressive prosecution of Clinton from any identical evidence implicating Trump in a far worse crime. His twists and twirls will earn him a perfect score from the Russian judge.

  8. 8
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I’ll make a call. Stay where you are.//

  9. 9
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @chris: I was having dinner and didn’t see Hayes. Wiley is a very smart woman and a very sharp attorney.

    I’ve got the DVR set to record O’Donnell.

  10. 10
    Immanentize says:

    @Wag:
    Simple — didn’t happen anywhere near the resolute desk, dammit!

  11. 11
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Wag: That’s your next Republican vice presidential nominee you’re badmouthing there.

    The reelection signs at the kickoff rally on Tuesday night were conspicuously missing Pence’s name.

  12. 12
    chris says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Maya said something like “If she didn’t wash the dress….”

    Ever since I’ve been hoping the dress is somewhere more secure than Carroll’s closet.

  13. 13
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Immanentize: DNA doesn’t necessarily come from semen. It can come from skin flakes, hair, etc. And, of course, such DNA could be planted. Twenty-three years is a long time with no chain of custody.
    I’d like nothing more than to see Trump die in prison. But this won’t put him there. It won’t even change any minds.

  14. 14
    Immanentize says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I’ve been saying this for a while…
    Pence doesn’t do the public suck-up like Lindsey can

  15. 15
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @hells littlest angel: This isn’t about putting him in prison. This isn’t even about getting him into court for a civil suit. This is about using whatever information you have for effect. If his DNA is on the dress, it is information that can be used for effect.

  16. 16
    Mnemosyne says:

    I’m shocked that the same people who insisted on checking Monica Lewinsky’s dress for evidence of consensual sex are mysteriously silent when someone with similar evidence accuses their white supremacist god-king.

  17. 17
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Immanentize: Mother Tested, Jesus Approved!

  18. 18
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Adam L Silverman: See my last sentence.

  19. 19
    NotMax says:

    Hanging on a hook in (more or less) the open air for 25 years, with exposure to varying temperatures and quite probable contact with other items during that time? Questionable as to results.

    …DNA, however, is fragile, and breaks down over time. How long the decomposition process takes will vary with the circumstances under which it is found. Take, for example, if DNA is exposed to the elements: Like the human body itself, DNA decays with increasing rapidity in the presence of heat, water, sunlight, and oxygen.… Source

    Genomic DNA aliquots stored at -20°C and -80°C were stable for over 24 months (real time stability still ongoing). Multiple freeze-thaw cycles up to 19 freeze thaws showed no detectable DNA degradation as assessed by agarose gels, PCR amplification and genotyping . DNA samples stored at 4°C and RT showed varying degrees of evaporation but DNA was stable for up to 12 months at 4°C. Samples stored at room temperature totally evaporated by 6 months. At RT, DNA degradation was seen at 9 months. DNA stored in dry state at room temperature showed degradation at 3 months of storage . Source (.pdf)

  20. 20
    Immanentize says:

    @hells littlest angel:
    Shit, thank you for mansplaining that. I expect I know at least as much about forensic DNA as you do. In fact, I know more than most that are not forensic DNA scientists. But semen can be otherwise tested long after it is dried onto cloth. Tested as semen. Not as skin flakes or other stuff.

    And my cousin is one of the heads of the FBI DNA lab so he keeps me frosty.

  21. 21
    chris says:

    @Adam L Silverman: It would be cool if the “black coat dress” is in the news for the next 18 months. But I fear Dems may be too polite.

    Oops, meant for Mnemosyne.

  22. 22
    B.B.A. says:

    I mean… it can’t hurt.

    Probably won’t help. The country is full of chuds who think MORE of Trump for being a rapist. They may only make up 27% but they’re rural and under the time-honored system of one acre, one vote, they’ll be able to protect him from any consequences.

    But it can’t hurt.

  23. 23

    @Immanentize: I love you a little bit right now.

  24. 24
    Immanentize says:

    @NotMax: well then there are the potential hairs….

    I had a case where an old moving pad was tested ’bout 12 years after the alleged rape. Said pad was kept in the worst conditions heat in a box no wrapping, etc. And they were able to find enough DNA to match my client in post conviction proceedings.

  25. 25
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Immanentize: I didn’t do any “mansplaining.” Nor did I make an argument by (a relative’s) authority.

  26. 26
    hotshoe says:

    The world would be a better place for every human if Dumpster’s daddy had drowned him after birth like a runt kitten.

  27. 27
    Immanentize says:

    @hells littlest angel:
    Oh, I’ve got my own authority. There was that commission on forensic DNA evidence I served on. And the conferences, and symposia. And the dozen or so death cases featuring DNA. But, you know, nada.

  28. 28

    @hells littlest angel:
    @Immanentize:

    I’m just standing by seeing what hells littlest angel’s credetials are…

  29. 29
    Immanentize says:

    @TaMara (HFG): Wikipedia?

    ETA. I had a rotten day. I’m off to hopefully have some pleasant dreams. Perhaps of lovely ducklings.

  30. 30
    lamh36 says:

    @kylegriffin1
    28s29 seconds ago
    More
    Live now on @TheLastWord on @MSNBC: E. Jean Carroll discusses her accusation of sexual assault against Trump.

  31. 31
    hells littlest angel says:

    @TaMara (HFG): Again, I’m not trying to make an argument by authority. That wouldn’t make me right. If you want to believe there’s meaningful forensic evidence to be obtained from a dress that’s been hanging in a closet for 23 years with no chain of custody, that’s your prerogative.

  32. 32
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @hells littlest angel: @Immanentize: @TaMara (HFG): Here Maya Wiley, a former prosecutor and a law professor, explains why the allegation may still be criminally prosecuted in NY and that the coatdress should be tested for evidence.

  33. 33
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Immanentize: you’re saltier than the giant package of pink Himalayan salt I saw at Costco earlier!

  34. 34
    zhena gogolia says:

    I just read the whole article. Pretty powerful. And totally believable.

    I remember all the things that surfaced in my mind during the Anita Hill hearings. Every woman you know has stories like this. (Not necessarily about Trump . . . but still.)

  35. 35
    JR says:

    @NotMax: DNA is actually quite durable in many respects, which is what you’d expect for the molecule that encodes genetic information. After all we are able to recover DNA samples from organisms that have been dead for thousands of years if not even longer. However there are a lot of breaks and depurinations in that DNA. Fine for species analysis but you’re not going to get anything close to “fingerprinting” after that time. For a 20-30 year period I suppose it will depend on storage. Dryer is better (hanging in coat closet is good). Might depend on odd things like: did she use mothballs (naphthalene) in there? That can cause extensive DNA damage.

  36. 36
    Kattails says:

    She wore it again for the photo shoot– did it get cleaned after that? It’s been some time between writing and actual publication, so perhaps no longer true. However, I’m surprised she didn’t think of it and curious as to why not, and why no one close to her said it. I read the clip and the thought was immediate, cut back to BJ to find this new post.
    Trump’s “base” is irrelevant to our considerations, we must draw off, coax, or convince every other possible hanger-on. If some part of his base ultimately deserts him that would be sweet. Right now anything that weakens or distracts him enough to loosen his filthy grip on those children in cages is just fine by me.

  37. 37
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Kattails: She just told O’Donnell, after he played her the clip of Maya Wiley, that she would never think of filing criminal charges/bringing a criminal complaint because that would be disrespectful to all the women on the southern border being raped who don’t have any protection.

    So it’s a moot point unless the NY AG or Manhattan DA decide to get very proactive.

  38. 38
    debbie says:

    @Immanentize:

    I doubt the evangelicals would stand still for a change.

  39. 39

    @Adam L Silverman: Criminal charges might be moot, but if the big dick keeps saying he doesn’t know her, etc, testing the dress could just be a way of proving him a liar. Hell if they could hold a dress worn during CONSENSUAL sex against Clinton…

    Everyone says, oh it won’t change any minds, but we know that’s not true, there are plenty of people who voted for Trump who are so disgusted and embarrassed they won’t vote for him again. Maybe they’ll sit out, maybe they’ll vote democrat, maybe they’ll vote for a Rep challenger.

    I don’t care – this man’s lies have to be brought into the light daily. Especially the sexual assault lies.

  40. 40
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TaMara (HFG): No argument here.

  41. 41
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I would be delighted to be wrong, but I don’t see anything helpful coming from this. The Summer Zervos suit might make a difference if it gets around to depositions before he leaves office, but Carroll’s accusation will amount to nothing.

  42. 42
    NotMax says:

    @JR

    Yeah, all I’m saying is that it is not impossible to obtain results, but whether they can be deemed definitive is certainly not a given, considering the circumstances.

  43. 43
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Adam L Silverman: My original comment was marked as spam. Weird. I’ll just say I’d be happy to be wrong.

  44. 44

    @hells littlest angel: Shorter HLA – I have no facts to back up my arguments but if you want to believe someone with actual experience with DNA evidence over me, that’s your prerogative. Bwhahahahaha.

    I think I’ll stick with the experts, thanks.

  45. 45
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Immanentize: I’m just going to baldly announce that I know more about forensic DNA evidence than anyone in this thread but you. But whoever wants to splain it to me is welcome to do so. Won’t change the reality.

  46. 46
    debbie says:

    @TaMara (HFG):

    The attention this will get and the degree to which it will enrage Trump and drive him further over the edge is plenty good in my book.

  47. 47
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @hells littlest angel: I have freed it. I have also stopped trying to figure out why comments wind up in moderation, spam, and/or trash.

  48. 48
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: I want to see it done in nucleic code!!!!

  49. 49

    @Adam L Silverman: Ditto – I was pulling a bunch of Raven’s comments out the other day for no reason I could figure.

  50. 50
    Another Scott says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I blame the Strawberry Moon.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who thinks this recent mania for naming full moons has gotten out of hand.)

  51. 51
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TaMara (HFG): He knows what he did.

    Also, in Raven’s case you have to fish them out.

  52. 52
    Kattails says:

    @Mnemosyne: “I’m shocked”–shocked I tell you!
    Of course you are, and did I ever mention that I’m the Pope?

  53. 53

    @Kattails: Nice to make you acquaintance Your Holiness.

  54. 54
    Kattails says:

    Oh–playing catch-up here for my dinner of herbs (ahem) and some cheese and crackers.
    Not my call but that would not be my reasoning, as a female, for withholding potential evidence that could help many other issues. With luck she’ll hold it intact just in case there’s reason to change her mind. Or are we just hoping for the kryptonite so as to avoid the continuing long slog to oppose this (unable to fill in blank with any printable words)…?

  55. 55
  56. 56
    Jeffro says:

    “Resign, Rapist President* ”

    DNC, please print 70 million of these signs. Kthxbai, as the kids say.

  57. 57
    Kattails says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Dispensations available to BJ regulars at a discount with 10% of the proceeds donated to whatever causes We are currently espousing.
    (PS your work is always a delight and amazement.)

  58. 58
    ema says:

    What is needed here is effective aggression!

    Why is this not blindingly obvious to the politicians/law enforcement people in charge?

  59. 59
    My Side of Town says:

    @hells littlest angel: DNA lives forever. And she wouldn’t have mentioned that, unless she already knows the answer.

  60. 60
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    LOCK HIM UP!
    LOCK HIM UP!
    LOCK HIM UP!

  61. 61
  62. 62
    trollhattan says:

    @Jeffro:
    “Rapist in Chief “

  63. 63
    Paul says:

    Facts and evidence don’t matter. They haven’t for years.

  64. 64

    Wouldn’t you need a sample of Trump’s DNA, or at least Trump family DNA, for this to be useful?

  65. 65
    Starfish says:

    Apparently, you are completely unfamiliar with the way victims are discredited. Even if there is something to test, there will be much nonsense.

  66. 66
    J R in WV says:

    @NotMax:

    Hanging on a hook in (more or less) the open air for 25 years, with exposure to varying temperatures and quite probable contact with other items during that time? Questionable as to results.

    Yes, like all human stuff, DNA decomposes… but they’re pulling DNA from 20,000 y o bones and teeth now. That have been lying in a cave floor. Worth testing in my mind.

  67. 67
    wenchacha says:

    I guess I have a couple questions/observations.

    I don’t quite understand how bringing a complaint against 45 for sexual assault would be disrespectful to women on the border. One really doesn’t have much to do with the other.

    Even if you found the foul remains of 45’s DNA, the argument would then turn on “she said, 45 never lies,” which won’t change many minds. She is forever suspect for not reporting this at the time. Not my POV, but what I expect would be the public response.

    Just seeing some excerpts, it would seem E. Jean is finally able to speak out about the rotten way men have behaved toward women, and how her personal experiences have informed her. This is a similar experience for too many women: speaking up is hazardous to your health, but also a very important act for regaining mental.health.

    45 is a scum lecher and rapist. This is well-known. Nothing will happen.

  68. 68
    Mary Ellen Sandahl says:

    I watched her interview with Lawrence and was struck by the theme, for want of a better term, behind Ms. Carroll’s decision not to press charges. The way I heard it, all her adult life she’s handled setbacks and bad experiences by (1) keeping her feelings private and (2) encouraging herself to forge past them and get on with her life. A stiff-upper-lip philosophy; also, as a fellow female, I suspect a desire not to be seen as a whiner, or weak (aka “feminine”). It was interesting to watch O’Donnell very tactfully attempting to suggest that perhaps, in this instance, her survival strategy might not be the best basis for deciding what to do about this situation.

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