If the report is true that Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is insisting on ousting Trump in the 2020 election and then prosecuting him, and it looks like it is, I must give up my defense of Pelosi’s strategy.
I’ve thought that she was waiting for support to build to some unspecified level that she, an adept counter of votes, had in mind. There were indications of what we’ve learned tonight, but politicians say many things in many ways.
Pelosi seems to be ignoring the damage that Trump is doing as President. The difficulties in investigating him and his administration that would be lessened in impeachment proceedings. The public education that would take place during impeachment hearings and the support that would build. The strong desire among many Democrats to see a rebuke of the administration’s lawlessness.
I am horrendously disappointed that she is taking a path that is consistent with many criticisms of “establishment” Democrats – that they are unwilling to wield the power they possess to do their lawful jobs.
I’m willing to look at evidence that I’m wrong. But I’m not seeing it.
randal m sexton
Sadly, I am coming around to this point of view as well.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
disappointing, but Lloyd Doggett of Texas (Austin, but still…) just added his name to the list. I think she may get carried along by the force of events
Major Major Major Major
Ah, shit. Very upsetting development.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This is a high-likelihood outcome IMO, maybe not the highest though, and it won’t be to her credit.
SiubhanDuinne
Yes, Lord, it’s hard. Lord, it’s hard.
I have been a dogged Pelosi-supporter for months, but I have finally come around to the “Impeachment Now!” position.
It is time.
It is past time.
Capri
I think her calculus is that until the senate will prosecute, a house impeachment looks like a partisan witch hunt (a la Clinton) and Trump is strengthened by it. So 2020 is more about getting a democratic senate than ousting Trump.
oatler.
Does Balloon Juice take its cues from the Splinter website? Oddly, Splinter was condemning Joe Biden for being a closet Republican and Balloon Juice said fuck you he’s Nancy SMASH’s man.
Belafon
What if she is counting votes, and we get a dozen Democrats not supporting it?
James E Powell
@Capri:
If that is her thinking, she is tragically mistaken. Anything any Democrat does will be portrayed as a partisan witch hunt by the press/media. It’s how they always handle such things.
It is urgent that the Democrats expose Trump and the Republicans in public hearings. Show who and what he is and they are. If the Democrats fail to do that. If they think everybody already knows. If they are stupid enough to think that the press/media will tell the public, then they are going to lose so badly in 2020 that I don’t know what the future will hold.
We, the people, need to get on them with sustained rage. They are ignoring us and ignoring the same realities that caused them to lose so badly in 2010 and 2016.
Amir Khalid
I dunno about the POLITICO story. It seems (to me, anyway) to be trying to turn a minor disagreement on emphasis into a fight within the House Democratic caucus. As I understand the impeachment process it has to begin with the House hearings anyway, to gather evidence and put it on the record. I would consider these enquiries part of the track to impeachment.
As for the vote-him-out strategy, I see no reason why it can’t be pursued alongside the current track to impeachment.
Cheryl Rofer
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I hope so.
Cheryl Rofer
@Amir Khalid: I also have reservations about the Politico story, which is why I hedged my remarks above.
Sloegin
Does she not understand they can do both? This is a Nixon impeachment, not a Clinton impeachment.
plato
@James E Powell:
Let’s be honest, “we, the people”, dropped the ball horribly in 2010 and 2016. “We, the people” have a lot to learn on voting, which the rethugs seem to have mastered.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Belafon: that’s occurred to me too, as has the possibility of Joe Manchin voting with McConnell if a bill of impeachment came to the Senate.
I also think she’s right that a lot of people seem to have the same grasp of impeachment that Michael Scott had about declaring bankruptcy.
I’ve come to the point where I think an impeachment inquiry should start now, but I don’t think it’s a simple matter
randy khan
“Both Schiff and Neal argued that if Democrats are going to open an inquiry, they should also be prepared to impeach Trump, which the caucus isn’t ready to do, they said.”
This is a key point. Until the number of votes for impeachment in the Democratic caucus tops, oh, 200 (which is around 80% of the members in the caucus), I don’t see there being much momentum to push Pelosi along. And I have a hard time criticizing her for not pushing the caucus to do something it doesn’t want to do.
To be clear, the path to impeachment is to continue investigations of, well, everything in the Administration. There’s plenty of smoke, and lots of fire, so let’s air it all out. That’s how you move the American people and the caucus.
PeakVT
I don’t know what Pelosi’s reasoning is, but I feel the inevitable acquittal would hurt more than building the case would help because the case-building and trial would galvanize the deplorables (see the latest SC confirmation) more than it would motivate liberals, who I think are already as motivated as they are going to be. Swing voters would be confused because they always are and because the media will feed them a constant stream of “centrists” (Bobo) who are “concerned” about the politicization of the process, blah blah blah, and probably revolt against the process itself as they have in state-level recalls. Low-info voters would never understand anything more than “acquitted on all charges” and take that to the voting both.
The House should all the hearings on Trumpolini and his maladministration possible and publicize the results with gusto. It should not impeach or hold those hearings under the banner of impeachment (at least until unequivocal treason is found, which is about the only thing the Senate might convict on).
randy khan
@James E Powell:
But “the people” aren’t pushing for, or even widely supporting, impeachment. The polling is pretty clear on that. The surest way to mess up something like this is to get ahead of the population as a whole.
I want the guy gone yesterday, too, but I’m not willing to take what is essentially an incredible long shot approach and potentially risk the 2020 election. I want the people to agree it’s the right move.
NotMax
“We recognized the problem and refused to exercise our Constitutional authority to act” is not a good look for history.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@randy khan:
Yeah, I remember 1998 too.
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: no, no it’s not.
Cheryl Rofer
@randy khan: It is a good point that the support needs to be there. But leadership has a role to play in generating those votes. “Ho-hum, let’s put it off to the 2020 election” isn’t a way to generate momentum, and Pelosi knows that. It’s possible that she wants the support to generate in other ways. One potential problem is that if the Republicans aren’t as smart as Nixon and fail to get in a Vice President who looks reasonably clean, Pence could go down with Trump, and then Pelosi is the next in succession. So she could be painted as pushing impeachment for her own benefit.
So yes, perhaps she is playing a waiting game, but I think there are better ways she could play it.
BobS
Is it possible that Pelosi just doesn’t want this to ripen too soon? It seems to me that, inasmuch as she knows impeachment is going nowhere in the Senate, having the proceedings ongoing during the campaign would be a continuous reminder of Trump’s unfitness for the presidency.
Also, there’s the possibility Stone’s criminal trial (November, I believe) and the DNC lawsuit against him and the Trump campaign might reinforce that perception- having those things occurring contemporaneously might not be that bad of a thing,
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@NotMax: yeah, it’s the flouting of the subpoenas and telling ex-staffers not to testify that pushed me into the impeachment camp
Ruckus
It’s all kabuki.
There is a process.
There is political reality.
There are things we don’t know that NP for sure does.
In a perfect world impeachment would be a snap.
In a perfect world DT wouldn’t be president.
This is a representative democracy. NP is the head rep and in a far better position to know what’s what than any of us.
And yes I want his ass in a cell as much as the next person. Impeachment will not get him there with McConnell in office.
We absolutely need to investigate, we should be impeaching him. But since the repubs made a mockery of the process 20 yrs ago and are making a far worse mockery of the government now it is rather pointless, especially if so many people have no idea about how bad he really is. Which is the only valid reason for even thinking impeachment at this time and I’d bet it wouldn’t actually go over as well as we hope it would.
IOW, I’m backing Nancy. It really is our best shot. She was around for Nixon’s bullshit, she was a rep when the house impeached BC and I’d bet she saw how well that worked out from a much closer point of view than we did. Now granted he was better liked and didn’t actually break any laws, which the current office holder can’t truthfully say.
How are we any worse off by not starting impeachment? We can still investigate and subpoena people for testimony and info and that hasn’t been going as well as we’d like. It may very well be that voting is our best chance at actual progress here.
Another Scott
@randy khan: +1
Government moves slowly when it works as designed.
There are lots of things coming up before October 1. E.g. GovExec:
Donnie will throw another fit about His Precious, and the intent of the House will be clear this time so he won’t be able to steal money from the DoD as easily this time.
The committees and the courts are going to continue fighting Donnie’s attempt to govern as God-Emperor. Whether the investigations are lead by an Impeachment committee in 4 weeks or 4 months doesn’t really matter. Donnie will continue lashing out, but from an increasingly weak position.
What matters is getting Donnie and his minions, and his enablers in the Senate and elsewhere, voted out of office. Of course, following the rule of law and the norms of government matters. But when McConnell and the rest of the GOP continue work to destroy the rule of law and the norms, then we can’t be constrained to only playing by the rules that they let us use. With McConnell saying that he’s going to block any legislation that the House passes that he doesn’t like, and his history, we cannot be at his mercy. We have to do all we can to take power away from him.
tl;dr – Don’t trust Politico. Nancy knows how this stuff works better than anyone. Don’t let what Nancy does or doesn’t do when distract us from our jobs – to vote the monsters out.
Eyes on the prize. Fight anything that distracts us from that prize.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
James E Powell
@randy khan:
The surest way to mess this up is to do nothing and let this piece of shit get re-elected.
Compare this with Benghazi!!! It was a totally made-up scandal and the public did not even really know or care about it until the Republicans made it into the thing that kept Hillary out of the White House.
oldgold
Mueller handed Pelosi a sh*t sandwich.
It is a tough call. I can argue it round or flat, depending on the day.
Not having a strong opinion, I am prepared to defer to the judgment of our best active pol – Pelosi.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Meanwhile, i wandered into a twitter thread about EW’s town hall and the Roses are concerned that she is impure on Single Payer, and Nina Turner is already bitching about the primary being rigged against Himself
rikyrah
Impeach him now??
burnspbesq
Politico’s agenda is not your agenda, or mine. They are not to be trusted.
James E Powell
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
This is nothing like 1998. That was one single thing – an extramarital affair – and the public knew all the relevant facts long before Clinton admitted it. Here, the public has no clue what the facts are with respect to Trump’s corruption. It’s just vague noise with no understanding of what he’s done wrong or why it’s important. The public can be educated. The public can be convinced. If we don’t believe that, then we ought to just quit and let the Republicans run everything until they screw everything up so bad they let the Democrats have the White House for a term or two to clean up the mess.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Me too.
There are some reasonable ways to push back a bit on this article, but at this point I’m happy to back the wing that provides the pressure to impeach.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Did you really expect different from him?
Nixon was in pretty good shape till the tapes showed up, screwing himself as it were and he still had to be convinced. This one really isn’t going to be convinced and he’s used to being in the shit, his entire life has been one swimming in shit lesson after another.
I believe that the only thing out of an impeachment attempt will be energizing voters. And that seems to be going on anyway. Shit for brains is doing that all on his own.
A possible side affect that I’ve not seen anyone say is that some of his supporters may threaten or have threatened massive attacks if he’s impeached. And I don’t think we’d know about that, but Nancy might.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: and Tucker Carlson was singing the praises of Warren’s new trade policy proposal, seeing it as a good way to prioritize white men over foreigners. Because we live in the worst timeline.
(Edited to remove many typos)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ruckus: from him being trump, no. A little surprised that Hope Hicks’ lawyers told her to listen to trump, a little less surprised, but still a bit surprised, that McGahn agreed to go along with it
patrick II
@Capri:
It may be her calculus, but don’t get caught fighting the last war. Lying about having a girlfriend is different than betraying your country, breaking up alliances, taking bribes via business, helping a son-in-law screw a Mideast ally so he could get a bankruptcy saving loan, ignoring subpoenas, and I could go on but my fingers would wear out before I finished.
Letting all of this damage to both our country and the idea it is based on — constitutional law — is a betrayal of Pelosi’s trust.
Brachiator
@randy khan:
The people were never in favor of impeaching Bill Clinton, who had not really committed any crime. But the Republicans impeached him anyway. And conservative pundits tried to lecture the public on why impeachment was necessary.
Mueller concluded that Trump had obstructed justice, and left it up to Congress to act. The House should act, and impeach Trump.
The Senate might not convict, but those senators who protect Trump will be exposed, and vulnerable to political payback.
Cheryl Rofer
I’m going to bed, y’all.
I see this as a healthy discussion which will eventually lead to impeachment. Whatever Pelosi’s stand now, and however strongly she’s holding it, enough support for impeachment will move her that way.
The important thing is to keep it healthy and not attack the people who disagree. That hasn’t happened on this thread. We ARE all in this together, and we need to act that way.
Meanwhile, the investigations will continue and the crimes will pile up.
Another Scott
TheHill:
FWIW.
Cheers.
Scott.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I doubt this scared Nancy Pelosi, but the threats have started
Dan B
Pelosi mentioned a House Panel to investigate the actions of the campaign, and hopefully all the entities in the Mueller report. This mirrors Adam’s concept. I’m for that but hope Schiff gets on board. The message needs to be that Mueller, a Lifelong Republican, produced 400 pages of potential illegal behavior. The AG wrote a summary that does not agree with Mueller. The Constitution demands we do our Duty to the American People. (Repeat message until sick to death of it.)
I remember JFK stating we were going to the moon not because it us easy but because it is hard. He led us. Not doing things because they are hard looks weak. People will follow the bold but Pelosi probably believes they will not follow the foolhardy. But the stakes are too high.
Trump and many of the GOP want the press to bend to their will, the poor to suffer for their inferiority, and the US to rule the world as the superior country. They are overreaching. It’s an opportunity unless we falter. Then it’s game over, hello Gilead of the plutocrats.
Omnes Omnibus
Yep, let’s get overwrought over a Politico article. That has always worked so well in the past.
Lyrebird
@Cheryl Rofer:
ding ding ding! I think this is a big factor you’re pointing too, and I agree with @burnspbesq that Politico is not to be trusted.
Jay
Key quotes,
“I don’t want to see him impeached, I want to see him in prison,” Pelosi said, according to multiple Democratic sources familiar with the meeting.”
Notice, the lack of names in a closed door meeting,…..
“Ashley Etienne, a Pelosi spokeswoman said Pelosi and the chairmen “had a productive meeting about the state of play with the Mueller report. They agreed to keep all options on the table and continue to move forward with an aggressive hearing and legislative strategy, as early as next week, to address the president’s corruption and abuses of power uncovered in the report.”
Hey, there’s a name, going on record.
“We are investigating all of the things we would investigate, frankly, in an impeachment inquiry,” Nadler said on CNN. He then paused for several seconds when asked if he and Pelosi were “on the same page.”
“When that decision has to be made, it will be made not by any one individual, it will be made probably by the caucus as a whole,” Nadler added. “Certainly Nancy will have the largest single voice in it.”
Hey, there’s another name, going on record, but not about the meeting, because the alleged meeting hadn’t happened yet.
Pelosi, meanwhile, is trying to publicly project unity — going so far as to defiantly declare Wednesday that “there is no controversy” within the caucus over impeachment.
“Make no mistake, we know exactly what path we’re on. We know exactly what actions we need to take,” Pelosi told reporters earlier Wednesday, hitting her palm on the podium for emphasis.“
And another name, going on record, again, before the meeting.
And hey, look at this:
“And Democratic leaders continue to emphasize that their methodical, step-by-step oversight process is working, pointing to recent federal court victories Democrats have secured against Trump’s efforts to block them. Nadler is also still trying to secure Mueller’s testimony before his committee.“
Isn’t this that there part of investigations, hearings and other processes that take place long before a formal Impeachment process starts, that often takes 9 months of more before the House Commitee’s even start to consider which Articles of Impeachment should be considered?
So, basically what we have here, is another Dem’s in Disarray story over Impeachment, 3/4’s of a year or more, before Articles of Impeachment are even considered by Commitee, and another 4 months or more, before they will be presented to the House.
Politico is just gaslighting you guys again, and you are falling for it because you are alternating one moment between faint hope, and despair, and raging much of the time. Some have given up all together.
Politico is also engaging in early voter suppression, hoping you will quit politics before the actual election campaigns ramp up, 13 months from now.
Don’t buy the bullshit when farmers give it away for free.
Jay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“Ex-Trump aide Hicks agrees to hand over campaign documents to Congress
David Morgan”
“Former White House Communications Director Hope Hicks, once a close aide to President Donald Trump, has agreed to turn over documents related to his 2016 election campaign to congressional investigators, a top Democratic lawmaker said on Tuesday.”
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1T522Y
Funny that.
Jay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Fat cosplaying faux Biker Gangs,……..
Irony Abounds
In all likelihood it wouldn’t make any difference. For whatever reason Trump is held to a different standard than any other living human being (and I use that term loosely). He likely would spin impeachment to his advantage. Keep the investigations up, don’t make a martyr out of the SOB and beat his orange fat ass in 2020.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: So…I’m not the only one who took a look at the publisher and went meh?
Mike in NC
Impeach that fat motherfucker ASAP.
Plato
Yay for ‘news media’, the fucking fourth estate fifth columnists.
Jay
@Mike in NC:
Which if the process is followed and all the t’s crossed and i’s dotted, the formal process where it’s called “Impeachment” will start 8-9 months from now, February 2020, at the earliest.
Cacti
Pardon my saying so, but I trust the political judgment of Speaker Pelosi over that of every BJ front pager combined, and multiplied by a factor of one thousand.
Blunouser
Sorry to post off topic pls d/c the comment if needed. For Tom Hiddleston /Loki fans he is doing a live interview on Bafta guru
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: But I do believe that Ivanka is going to be our new princess.
Seriously though, If people want the impeachment process formally started under that name, they need to call their Reps. I called Mark Pocan a couple of days ago to say “Attaboy” for his call for beginning an Impeachment Inquiry. Let’s let the process happen at its pace. It’s not as though everything will fall apart if Articles of Impeachment aren’t voted in before the 4th of July or some other artificial deadline.
janesays
@Belafon: Then he will be impeached by a vote of no less than 223-212, depending on when the election is held (there are currently 2 House vacancies).
janesays
@randy khan: The people didn’t agree that impeaching Nixon was the right move until July 1974. As late as February 1974, when the formal impeachment inquiry was underway, public support was still hovering only around 38% for his removal.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/08/how-the-watergate-crisis-eroded-public-support-for-richard-nixon/
The only way support for Trump’s impeachment will top 50% is if the impeachment inquiry is launched and hearings with teeth actually get underway on national television.
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Oh fucking hell! I’d wade into this shit and ask who knew about Vermont Jesus back in 2014, but I wouldn’t get any real answers.
Jay
@janesays:
Yup,
Ipso’s recent poll has all voters at 45% for impeachment.
“(Reuters) – The number of Americans who said President Donald Trump should be impeached rose 5 percentage points to 45 percent since mid-April, while more than half said multiple congressional probes of Trump interfered with important government business, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Thursday.”
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1SF2D9
prostratedragon
Music to encourage the proper focus on hara.:
(Part of my pre-test routine, back when.)
jl
I tend to agree with Cheryl. I am agnostic on whether reports like this are true, I don;t think possible to know, given how much crap gossip is published as insider access political analysis. I don’t pretend to see into Pelosi’s mind.
I may differ from Cheryl, in that I don’t think it is all that important whether official impeachment hearings begin soon or not. I do think the investigations (particularly on Russian and other foreign government hacking of voter rolls and election files) should be much more aggressive. And Democratic leadership needs to be aggressively educating public on what impeachment means, how House impeachment and Senate trial work, and on the danger Trump and Trumpism presents to our democracy. I think Pelosi needs to get beyond vague talk about what unspecified future investigations might find, and that the House will do some unspecified ‘right thing’ in the future. She needs to be making an aggressive case that Trump is dangerous, is unfit for office, has behaved in an impeachment-worthy way on many issues, and discuss specific investigations that have produced evidence that points towards impeachment.
jl
@Jay: Well, that is good to hear. If Pelosi is waiting until the sentiment for impeachment gets to 50 percent, then she better be ready to move soon. But as I typed above, I think she should be more aggressively getting that number up above 50 percent by making statements that educate the public at every opportunity.
Jay
@mrmoshpotato:
The DSA has 201,800 followers on Twitter,
AOC has 4.3 million,
Obama has 106.5 million,
Michelle Obama has 12.7 million,
Hillary has 24.6 million,
Nancy Smash has 2.6 million,
I’ve Pet That Dog has 252.2k,
So, Rose Twitter is less popular than the account of a 10 year old boy in Ohio who pets one new dog a day.
Aussie Sheila
@jl:
From here it looks like NP is a superb parliamentarian and strategist.
What’s wrong with making the next year a steady drip, drip of information about every corrupt and criminal aspect of the whole (republican/tRump), including high profile hearings that’s can only begin once they secure compliance with subpoenas in any case, and then make 2020 elections the ‘impeachment conviction’ election, on the grounds that the Republican Senate refuses to do its duty?
Frame it as the ‘peoples’ impeachment election?
Omnes Omnibus
@jl:
She isn’t the person to be doing that. She isn’t a great public speaker, but that’s never really been a part of the Speaker’s job. Also, she is pretty high up in the line of succession.
Philbert
Impeachment hearings NOW! No matter what it will take months to even start. It will appear more of a stunt if it occurs during the main campaign, let’s get the trial or Turtle’s denial before the primaries, enough for nose-holder GOP to stay home or vote for Bill Weld or whoever as a black eye. Maybe maybe maybe they would get people to testify that won’t now. If not it would show the whole GOP contempt for the law. To not impeach is to say OK fine. And if he wins, so what, as far as I’m concerned the Clinton impeachment worked: it got Bush and Trump elected.
FlipYrWhig
All we REALLY have to do is mint a trillion dollar coin. BUT THE FECKLESS DEMS WON’T. EVEN. TRY!
Plato
mrmoshpotato
@Jay:
And the country (including Dump voters) got fucked by 77,000 purity morons and Hillary haters.
I’ve watched many football games in Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor with way more than 77,000 people. I’ve expressed my frustration at fighting this war on two fronts, and I’m not betting that 77,000 people and their Vermont Jesus won’t try to fuck us again.
And you know full well they won’t have the epiphany that they royally fucked up. No. Everyone else wasn’t pure enough for them. “Wilmer would’ve won!” I can’t imagine the ads in a Wilmer vs Dump general election. First up – Soviet Sanders! (and they’d be right).
Jay
@jl:
May 17, 1973: The Senate Watergate Committee begins its nationally televised hearings.
May 9, 1974: Impeachment hearings begin before the House Judiciary Committee.
July 27 to July 30, 1974: House Judiciary Committee passes Articles of Impeachment.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Watergate_scandal
Hope Hick has solved her FTFNYT haliographic “Extistential Dillemma”, by complying with the House Subpena for documents and communications,
Bill disBarr tried to negotiate his way out of a Contempt of Congress Hearing and censure, by offering to hive the House everything they had Subpenaed from the DOJ, the House Committee refused to withdraw the hearing and censure vote.
Nader’s going to jail on Child Pornography charges because he was too dumb to understand that once they seized his phone, the only thing that would protect him, was telling all when they made the proffer offer and full cooperation with the investigation and any Court trials/Grand Jury Hearings. Instead, he held back and gave some less than full testimony, and once others confirmed that, his ass was grass.
The legal process runs slow when you dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s.
The Redacted Mueller Report landed on peoples desks a month and 2/3rds ago, and the House Justice Commitee has not yet seen the Unredacted Report and supporting documents and evidence yet.
Nixon slow walked the tapes as well, and the last bombshell tape was finally released a few days after the House had already voted to impeach.
Jay
@Philbert:
It took roughly a year for the Watergate Hearings to produce Impeachment Hearings to start in the House Judiciary Commitee, and another 2 1/2 months for those Hearings to produce an indictment to take to the House.
MobiusKlein
The Senate
Will
Not
Convict.
So come 2021, do we want the power to investigate restricted to impeachment proceedings, or be a general power of the house?
Answer this before considering who is POTUS that year.
NotMax
@Jay
The House never voted to impeach. The resignation came before any House vote was to occur.
The select committee did pass three articles of impeachment, though. Before, it should be added, Nixon was forced to release the “smoking gun” tape.
CaseyL
Y’all might want to keep in mind that a successful impeachment and conviction of Trump would just mean that we get a President Pence. Hard as it may seem, he’d be an even worse President than 45.
Believe me, I understand the hunger for impeachment: I share it. But the rot goes way deeper than just Trump; even if we remove him, we don’t remove the rot. Our institutions didn’t fail because of a fluke: they’ve all failed due to a very long campaign of polarization, regulatory capture, and the descent of the Fourth Estate into infotainment clickbait.
Frankly, I think the US done as a liberal democratic republic. Parts of it may remain so, as long as Blue State economies stay strong. But the overarching power structure is de facto oligarch, and I don’t see that changing within our lifetimes.
Jay
@MobiusKlein:
Things change.
Ever think a Teabagger Koch Sucking Teabagger would be calling for the Impeachment of somebody other than Obama or Hillary?
Over the long process of moving from the Muller Report, to House investigations, subpenas, testimony, evidence, to the point of actually starting Impeachment hearings, ( several months before Articles of Impeachment are drafted), lot’s happens.
A crapload of ReThugs in the Aministration, House, Senate, who were protecting Nixon, were gone, long before Nixon climbed on the chopper for the last time, Many to jail, some resigned to spend more time with their lawyers, some were voted out.
First you kill the Court, then you kill the King.
Presidents don’t commit real crimes alone. They need the help of other criminals in the House, Senate, Judiciary and Administration.
Just like Mob Bosses need a Mob.
Lumpy
Nothing will happen to Trump after he leaves office. It will be considered old news, “lets move on”. If it doesn’t happen while he’s in office, it’s not happening.
Of course Trump won’t be convicted by the Senate. That’s not the point. The point is that Trump would forever have an asterisk by his name in the history books. That is huge.
It would also motivate the Democratic base to turn out on election day in a big way, while not impeaching would depress the base turnout. Yes, it would also motivate Trump’s base, but they are outnumbered.
Emerald
@Ruckus:
This. Nobody knows the mood of the nation better than Nancy. Her congresscritters know their voters and their districts. Yet she has never taken impeachment off the table. She always says “not yet.” Most of us feel that the Dems were voted in to block Twitler, but they weren’t. They were voted in to save healthcare, and that’s still the top issue out there in the Land.
I think one other scenario might be in play: Nancy has been known to allow her caucus to run openly against her in elections, if that will help her members win. She did that last year, and it wasn’t the first time. She could simply be putting this off to make it known that when the inquiries start it is only with the greatest reluctance, and she’s willingly taking the blame.
But start those inquiries will, when Nancy deems the time to be right. The legal stuff is still brewing for the next week or so. Let that get well cooked, and then off we go. Mueller will testify. That will set it in motion and give a reason to start actual impeachment inquiries.
Yeah, I trust Nancy to have the savviest strategy because that’s her history. She knows that the inquiries will turn the public against Twitler. She’s going to time it right.
Jay
@NotMax:
Nope, the House Judicial Commitee voted to pass Articles of Impeachment, they did.
Then the full House votes. If it passes, it goes to the Senate.
Then the Articles go to the Senate, where a “trial” is held, under the Jourisdiction and direction of the Chair of the Senate Judiciary Commitee, overseen for due process by the Chair of the Supreme Court.
The House Commitee passed the articles of Impeachment.
Nixon resigned 10 days later, before the full House vote could be scheduled.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon
Jay
@CaseyL:
Given up have you?
piratedan
for fucks sake, it’s Politico…
Have we learned NOTHING about these lying media fucks who will spin anything into Dems in disarray?
I’m sure that NP would like nothing more than to impeach not only Donald Trump but the entire thieving administration and I am still reminded everyday what she is up against…
a GOP Senate that enthusiastically endorses, when its not aiding and abetting, all of this entire bullshit because they are reaping still a financial and political windfall while they continue to play three card monte with the country’s laws
a DOJ that has been hollowed out and is being filled in by the very same ilk of the Honorable Mr. Barr
a media that is so beholden to access that reporting on this travesty of an administration means that many of themselves are complicit and if they aren’t, a significant portion of those editors and supervisors that frame the stories and shape the narratives that they want told ARE
Still fighting against the social media obstacles that are out there blurring lines, distorting evidence and simply ignoring the ultimate evidence that these people are robbing and disenfranchising Americans on a wholesale basis and they are using their tools to make it happen, so as long as they get their cut, they do not give a fuck.
a disturbingly significant portion of the average citizenry who believes that the lying motherfucker has been EXONERATED
Not to mention that we still have Putin, Saudi Arabia, Israel and China (and who knows who the fuck else) still subverting, buying, plotting in our current policy and for our next series of elections
yes, I am frustrated by the slowness by which this is moving, but with the realities in place, and players on the board… if she whipped up articles of impeachment tomorrow, I have no idea on how Dems would vote. Nancy is the master vote counter of our time, how many Dems have been bought off? Do we know for a fact that if she brought articles of impeachment forward tomorrow, does she have the votes in hand, because if you have some fucking bastards like Ryan and Seth darling Moulton out there, does she know that she has the votes to get it done right fucking now or have they been “reached”? Would they feel any heat if they threw a spanner into the works….?
This is where the focus should be imho, do we have a united Dem caucus that is willing and ready to go to the mattresses on this? Because if we do not, then she has to continue to wait until she has the votes and get these people convinced to go to the mattresses with her.
NotMax
@Jay
Geez Louise, condescending much? What do you mean “nope?”
You explicitly said “after the House had already voted to impeach.” I offered a correction to that misstatement.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: You are Canadian, right? Maybe you want to step the fuck back on certain types of issues. This being one of them.
Jay
@Emerald:
Yup, but the legal stuff will run a lot longer than a week or two, and summer recess is coming.
18 months till the next election, subtract two for the summer, that’s 16 months, so 2 to 3 months to go to match the Watergate timeline, so September, October when the serious Hearings start.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Pie
Jay
@NotMax:
You wern’t clear to me, and yeah, I shorthanded the House for the House Judiciary Commitee, because I have been posting the same shit across multiple sites for over a month now because of all the Eeores, MSM bs and the Impeach Yesterday crowd.
Sorry I was snotty.
Did you read The Rectification of Names today?
wasabi gasp
The Lady’s predilection is indubitably spontaneous human combustion.
Philbert
@Jay: agreed, I watched it, I was in my early 20’s and saw live,Butterfield’s Yes We Have Tapes(wow!). No matter how much the rush it will drag on and as it does it discredits Trump. There is plenty more evidence of plenty more crimes, plus massive systemic corruption, than Nixon. Show the public TV testimony of all the $$ passed around the syndicate. Treason and BRIBERY are mentioned before high crimes. Corruption is more easily understood than Russia and will turn additional people away from him. Again, if we don’t try, we are ceding him legitimacy, looking like wimps, and letting it go as ‘just politics’ rather than the emergency it is. .
Now they are also threatening ‘Rolling Thunder’ plus thugs, if we impeach. We can’t give in to terrorism.
Emerald
@Jay: Nancy knows that. She will time it right.
We’re all so sick of tRump’s shit. We are SO sick of it, and it’s more every day. Hence, we are impatient, including me.
But I have noticed that only Nancy SMASH has managed to defeat the shitgibbon and has done it several times.
I trust Nancy. She will get the timing right.
What consoles me is that after he’s out of office, while I really don’t see any federal charges being brought against him for reasons, I sure do see NY state charges. Ergo, even if they steal the next election too, and they really might, he’s goin’ to JAIL.
Jay
@mrmoshpotato:
And how many are bots? Foreign or otherwise?
Omnes Omnibus
@Philbert:
Sure, but we shouldn’t just rush into something to prove that we aren’t giving in to terrorism. That is just another way of ceding control to the assholes.
Jay
@Philbert:
Rolling Thunder is a bunch of fat, old, mediocre white men, cosplaying at being tough bikers. Riding from their 5 bedroom suburban homes to the closest place serving ribs and beer, in a pack while wearing their faux “gang” colours and collected ( off Amazon, “Sturgis 2016”) patches, like some ‘80’s emo kid with his Tears for Fears and Janes Addiction badges pinned to his army surplus German Army jacket,
All to forget that at their middling best, they are Accountants, Middle Managers, Shop Stewards, Home Depot Associates, Gas Station owner/operators,
Living the life for 4 hours on the weekend and on the web,
Not even Walter Mittiy.
Jay
@Emerald:
I can see Federal Charges.
More and more people, see The System as broken, rigged, and biased, and they want it fixed and those who broke it punished.
Of course, if the ReThugs hold the Senate and the White House,….
While the Republic was a middling good idea, in theory, while it lasted.
Philbert
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah I am maybe getting a little ahead of it on that front, but neither can we slow it because of anything they might do. The process is slow anyway, as you note. Maybe the picture of him in that suit will end him. Crimony. .
Omnes Omnibus
@Philbert: The GOP should have no effect on the speed at which the investigations proceed.
Aleta
(moved)
Ruckus
@janesays:
I mentioned Nixon because a lot of people didn’t know any of the details so it did look like a political thing. Till it didn’t.
But this is different, with a twist. We know but a lot of people don’t, because the media, because the racism, because they just don’t know. Getting that news out there better, that’s starting to happen more and more every day. What we know is starting to be obvious to those not really watching. Once that tipping point is reached, and we won’t know till it happens, that’s when it’s time. Mueller is still a key player, like it or not. And I suspect he doesn’t. He thinks he’s done his duty but he has knowledge that people that need to know don’t. He’s going to have to change that, even if all he does is read the entire report to congress. Because that report is vital. This isn’t a blowjob, this is far worse than a political break in. And he needs to say that to congress.
janesays
@Jay: Amash has always been a bit of an outsider within his party. He’s not a Jim Jordan/Trey Gowdy blowhard type, and never has been. He’s wrong about pretty much everything on economic policy, but he’s not a stereotypical teabagger.
janesays
Pelosi has to know that if she doesn’t allow impeachment to move forward, and then Trump gets re-elected, her days as House Speaker/Minority Leader are over. She’s banking on a strategy that hinges entirely on the premise that impeachment would only help Trump’s odds of winning in 2020. If not doing impeachment to try to avoid that scenario winds up backfiring, she’s finished.
dww44
@janesays: If she refuses to allow impeachment to move forward and Trump is reelected, not only is she done, the whole country is. The stakes are that high. I am truly gobsmacked by her refusal to allow an official impeachment inquiry to proceed apace. I do not get her reasoning at all and I am far from convinced that she has some amazing insight that the rest of us who’ve been observers of the political scene for as long as she’s been part of it don’t.
I’m with Warren on this matter. This is not about politics;it is about doing the right thing and defending our democracy.
Chris Johnson
I still think Pelosi knows that Pence is dirty. Any investigation regarding impeachment would quickly reveal this, making the idea of impeaching just Trump and removing him in favor of Pence, ludicrous. I’m not even talking ‘Pence is a Talibangelical loon’, I mean ‘Pence works directly with the Russians to get what he wants and was Manafort’s hand-picked choice, and has been groomed to assume power when Trump flames out’. He’s Trump’s Russia-chosen replacement.
Pelosi doesn’t want to be President. Among other things, she’d die. It’s like a sacrificial move in a chess game: a real pyrrhic victory, that would be. Pelosi wants the Democrats to take the Executive Branch through more basic democratic means, knowing that a ‘coup’ through double impeachment won’t fly. It’s not even that the Senate will double down and prefer to be Russia puppets rather than allow the double impeachment/removal from office, it’s that EVEN IF THEY DID accept the sheer treason/warlike-act nature of Trump/Pence’s taking power, the prescribed outcome is President Pelosi and not, say, some special election or putting Hillary Clinton in or putting Obama back.
I don’t think people are ready for an appointed President who never ran in a Presidential election. We’ve never had that or anything like it, and we have enough trouble with elected Presidents: I think Pelosi is right to be wary of this. And again, Trump/Pence is a unit, treason-wise. Pence’s job is to be under the radar, but it’s not enough: it looks like some people are wise to his position.
On the other hand I think they need to start the investigations. But I don’t think the whole process is going to play out.
Maybe it’s so bad that even to begin the investigations will reveal the only option is President Pelosi?
tybee
@Chris Johnson:
Gerald Ford
batguano
Pelosi’s been so damn good that I trust her.
Booger
Think back to Trump’s smoldering rage during the White House Correspondent’s Dinner when President Obama was mocking him and there was no means for Trump to lash out. Imagine nine months of non-stop televised House hearings dragging out every single traitorous and criminal act that sack of failure has ever committed in full view of the cameras and the world and no chance for him to respond except his incoherent splutterings on Twitter. I’d watch the shit out of that.
artem1s
Mueller’s report is spinning off productive investigations all over the place. This is nothing but a MSM ‘Dems in array’ hit piece. Why do you keep doubling down on attacking Democrats when you are upset with Republicans’ lack of action. More pressure on Democrats isn’t going to get you the thing you keep saying you want. Quit with these pile on pieces against Pelosi. She’s fucking running the government. Let her do her job and she will prove that separation of powers means something. how about not letting the MSM distract you every fucking day with a Chicken Little story about how the sky is falling?
JUST STOP IT
lee
I read last week that maybe the idea is to start impeachment hearings next year during the run up to the election. Just keep hammering him every day with bad news on what is revealed during the hearings. The make the senate vote right before the election. Make the GOP Senators put their re-election on the line with their removal vote.
I honestly don’t know. I sort of feel like starting the impeachment hearings now is the better option but that gives the GOP Senators time to vote to not remove and recover and be re-elected.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I think the idea of a special committee to press the investigatory power of Congress is the way to go for now. I’m not in favor of launching an official impeachment inquiry until that happens, because it shouldn’t take an impeachment inquiry for Congress to exercise oversight. I mean today it’s the POTUS stonewalling illegally, but next it might be some cabinet member who decides they don’t need to give Congress information. The thing is I’m not seeing a full court press by the House to get that info. I’m seeing them ask, get stonewalled, and then there seems to be some strategy to slow roll the response. The Dems in the house need to be more aggressive at exercising their oversight rights. They need to be in front of the cameras every day saying, give us this info, the law requires it, or we start throwing folks in a hoosegow for contempt. What are they hiding? What are they guilty of? Since Trump’s supporters all hate Muslims start asking why we’re letting the Saudis run our foreign policy and giving them weapons? What do they have on Trump and what national security risks does that pose? Start theorizing on camera – it would be irresponsible not to. That’s what the Republicans would be doing day after day.
I’d like to get to impeachment but I’d like to see the Dems show a little backbone in obtaining the materials they need to investigate high crimes. Once they have the evidence, then impeach the MFer, but it’s like they’re only half trying to get the evidence. We need a full court press and we’re not getting it. That’s what’s infuriating.
‘
Frank Wilhoit
The mistake was made in 1980. Time cannot be turned back to change that.
Tazj
@lee: It’s very frustrating trying to figure out exactly what’s going on. It appears that the Democrats aren’t being very aggressive in their pursuit of materials form the administration, but is that part of the plan? Are they trying to dot all the i’s and give the administration every opportunity in hopes of favorable judicial ruling? Or are they trying to stretch everything out so the hearings occur closer to the election? Because so many liberal pundits and writers are convinced that the only way to obtain the materials and make people testify is through an impeachment proceeding, I’m finding it harder to keep my cool and trust Pelosi. But what do I know?
And not knowing things is so hard because what we do know about Trump and the administration is horrible and you get the feeling that things have to be handled in a certain way as to know upset certain people. Maybe the administration will become more malicious and punitive(if that’s possible?) if impeachment begins. Maybe there are many people aren’t there yet in regards to impeachment and that’s all they’re waiting for.
I get angrier everyday at people who voted for Trump and Republican senators and those voters that don’t want impeachment. What would he have to do for them to agree to it?
I’m grateful for the Democratic town halls that are keeping sane and giving me hope that things can change.
sherparick
As Steve of “No More Mr. Nice Blog” says, Democrats, with the exception of Elisabeth Warren, could not message free beer at Spring Break. I love criticizing the theater critic aspect of modern political journalism in the U.S., but politics, but particularly politics in a democracy, has a huge theater aspect which apparently the Speaker and the folks she listens to appear to miss the truth of Lincoln’s statement at the beginning of the age of mass politics: “In this age, in this country, public sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail; against it, nothing can succeed. Whoever molds public sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes, or pronounces judicial decisions.” Lincoln, in debate with Stephen Douglas, Ottawa, Illinois, August 1858. I will say this for Trump, he is always trying to “mold” public opinion for his own selfish ends and has been doing so in the hothouse of New York media as his own “Sidney Falco” since the 1970s. Pelosi and Biden are both up a river in Egypt if they think they can win in 2020 by just saying that Trump is outrageous.
DigitalAmish
Perhaps the votes that Pelosi is counting are the 17 Republican senators that would need to vote for conviction. Anyone care to make a list? added on edit: not to mention how long do you think McConnell could delay taking any action?
EthylEster
@Yutsano wrote:
Correct.
I suspect there are many here who automatically discount Politico…for good reason.
SomeOtherTimSmith
Pelosi and the leadership are missing the big picture. Congress critters gets dinged when they put partisan politics above their oaths to uphold the constitution, and rewarded when they do the opposite.
Clinton’s crime – lying under oath to cover up an ordinary garden-variety consensual affair – was a low crime. Anyone could have done it, High Crimes are abuses of high office. And the crime itself was a byproduct of a highly partisan investigation. People could see that, so they punished the Republicans for pushing impeachment.
Pelosi is making the same mistake. The facts of Trump’s High Crimes are everywhere, and people can see that. As Speaker, she is bound by her oath to at least support an investigation into impeachable offenses, but she isn’t doing that because she thinks it will hurt her party politically. People can see that too. Out here in the real world – outside the Democratic Leadership bubble – her calculus makes no sense.
Can’t she see that giving Trump a pass on impeachment is the same thing as endorsing what he is doing? Every week Trump does something that would have been considered impeachable for any prior president.* As far as anyone can tell outside the beltway there is nothing going on in the House to even investigate these probably cases of “Treason, Bribery and Other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.” Sure, the tax committee has a low-energy investigation to see if Treasury is doing their audits correctly, and we presume the Intelligence committee is doing something behind closed doors, but there is a conspicuous lack of “Impeachment Inquiries.” How can Hoyer, Pelosi and the others in the Democratic Leadership bubble think that enabling Trump’s corruption and destruction is going to be of any help to Democrats in 2020?
* – My favorite for this week is bringing his two private-sector sons to official events in England. Um, hey Donald – do you remember that you’re supposed to A) keep a wall between your personal finances and your public office, and B) not accept “emoluments” from foreign states? Those two mingling with the UK Royals are running your ‘blind trust.” Why are they there? Are they just well-connected tourists? Or are they bookies working the crowd for bribes? We don’t know because Pelosi’s House is not doing it’s job and running an investigation.
glotry b
@Jay: I understand that Hicks has only turned over documents that where already available, she didn’t give up everything they were asking for, just stuff they already had access to.
lethargytartare
@Jay:
for the love of god, can someone explain how “To Pet” became a tenseless verb while I wasn’t looking?
3 people from Save a Pet have said this around me, and now some kid on twitter has been infected?
EthylEster
@glotry b:
Well, not exactly. From the link to reuters….
The committee is seeking any material Hicks has on a June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower in New York between campaign officials including the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and son-in-law Jared Kushner and Russians offering to help Trump’s candidacy
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-congress/ex-trump-aide-hicks-agrees-to-hand-over-campaign-documents-to-congress-idUSKCN1T522Y
TenguPhule
I’m still willing to wait a little longer.
But what should worry everyone is that it seems Congressional Democrats are betting everything on the next election. There is no plan B.
And if Donald Trump remains unimpeached and the election is also called for him, the absolute worst case scenario, there will be no part of the federal government with any legitimacy left. Everything will burn.
TenguPhule
@Chris Johnson:
Then she should have resigned as Speaker and appointed someone able to do the job.
TenguPhule
@artem1s:
Every investigation is being stonewalled. Meanwhile Trump and the GOP are merrily spinning them as partisan hit pieces.
Eolirin
@TenguPhule: There’s no Plan B because there’s no other option. The senate will not convict. The only way to remove him is via election. And he has to be removed.
TenguPhule
@Eolirin:
Plan B is for what happens if this fails.
janesays
@Chris Johnson: There is no realistic scenario in which both Donald Trump and Mike Pence are impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate with no fewer than 17 Republican senators voting for their removal in both cases. ESPECIALLY if the end result is Nancy Pelosi becoming president.
It’s a theoretical scenario that is completely pointless to even speculate about, because it’s never, ever, ever going to happen.
janesays
@DigitalAmish: None of the people pushing seriously for impeachment have any reasonable expectation that the proceeding would end with Trump being convicted by a GOP majority senate. Senate acquittal is generally taken as a foregone conclusion. The purpose of an impeachment with no realistic hope of it resulting in a removal is to severely damage the president and his party heading into the 2020 election.
janesays
@EthylEster: Valid point, but I have to think that if the story is just categorically false, Pelosi or her team would be pushing back hard on its conclusions. But they aren’t.