May Resigns (Open Thread)

She’s out Friday the 7th. Here’s the resignation speech in full:

Good lord, she’s got to swim through a river of shit first, though, according to The Guardian:

The prime minister will remain in Downing Street, to shoulder the blame for what are expected to be dire results for her party from Thursday’s European elections – and to host Donald Trump when he visits.

Ewww. I’m not a fan of May — she’s been an unqualified disaster. But can you imagine how extra-insufferable Trump will be now that she’s resigned? He was an ungracious pig toward May last time he visited. Ugh. Anyhoo, what’s next for the UK?

Open thread!






189 replies
  1. 1
    batguano says:

    Boris Johnson is expected to replace her?

  2. 2
    Betty Cracker says:

    @batguano: Gross!

  3. 3
    WereBear says:

    One talent Trump has is going lower.

  4. 4
    Ken says:

    @Betty Cracker: You’d prefer obvious anagram Jacob Rees-Mogg?

    BTW, Chris Grey has an update on this.

  5. 5
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    I want her replaced by Gollum Theresa!

    (Having trouble linking the YouTube on the phone)

    “We hasn’t got any friends” became a permanent joke in our weird house ever since watching that.

  6. 6
    Lit3Bolt says:

    Tsar Putin must be smiling…

  7. 7
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Ken: No! Just stating the obvious about Johnson. I’m guessing that, like the Republican Party in the US, the Conservative Party has no one decent on offer. I was struck by allusions in May’s speech to fighting climate change, discrimination, etc. — the GOP doesn’t even pretend to care about those issues anymore.

    ETA: Thanks for the link to the Brexit blog. Fascinating.

  8. 8
    Anonymous At Work says:

    This is a great opportunity for May, if she weren’t so British. She’s beyond caring what happens after June 7th right now, so she could tell off Trump in all the ways he avoids.
    Sadly, she’s British and that’d be improper.

  9. 9
    rk says:

    Is there a reason why Trump is going to Britain? Did they actually invite him? If so, I can’t imagine why they want him back after the last stupid visit. Maybe May’s govt thinks if he comes to England the people will look at their own govt in a favorable light (May looks like Einstein compared to the “stable genius”)

  10. 10
    Hawes says:

    I feel bad for May, frankly. She was against Brexit, Cameron abandoned the sinking ship and her party has gone insane. She was given an impossible task that turned out to be impossible.

  11. 11
    Baud says:

    Too bad we can’t convince Trump that all the best leaders resign in shame.

  12. 12
    Wilson Heath says:

    Everyone lift a frosty milkshake in celebration!

    . . . and look for a loathsome racist to upend it on . . .

  13. 13
    SFAW says:

    @Hawes:

    I felt bad for her for a while. Then she decided that continuing to dig that hole was a better path than either trying for a new (hopefully untainted) referendum, or saying to the voters “tough shit, we ain’t leaving, because we know there was Russian interference” (or some similar justification).

    But when she kept fucking that chicken, she lost whatever sympathy/support she had from me. [Not that she cares what some old stupid Yank thinks, of course.]

  14. 14
    The Pale Scot says:

    My money’s on Boris the OAF, Moogs is just the epitome of the Upper Class Twit. It’s a shame Boris won’t be there to meet Dump, The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle might cause one of the two to blink out of existence.

  15. 15
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Anonymous At Work: Brits excel at subtle and not-so-subtle insults, IMO. Maybe she’ll find a way to get in a devastating dig. If she’s looking at ways to make her legacy about something other than buffoonery, that’s a good option!

  16. 16
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @rk: 75th anniversary of D Day. The leaders of all the participating nations have been invited.

  17. 17
    Barbara says:

    Look at it this way — she has little to lose from drinking copious amounts of alcohol while dining with Donnie.

  18. 18
    Amir Khalid says:

    If Trump was an ungracious pig to Theresa May on his last visit, he’s going to be really insufferable when she’s on her way out of 10 Downing St.

    I find it rich that May talks of what she did for the Grenfell Tower victims. She refused to meet the survivors face-to-face, citing bullshit claims about security concerns. The Queen showed her up the very next by going to meet them accompanied only by Prince William.

    That catch in her throat at the very end of her resignation speech — “… the country I love.” — looks suspiciously like acting to me.

  19. 19
    Barbara says:

    @Amir Khalid: She probably had to struggle not to say “the party I love.” Because that’s the way it has looked to me from afar.

  20. 20
    Sloane Ranger says:

    Boris is considered the frontrunner but there’s talk of some MP’s trying to find an anyone but… candidate (other than the Right Hon Member for the 18th century obviously). We’ll see what other names emerge.

    Re te European elections, a scandal is emerging. Apparently at least some non Brit EU citizens were told they couldn’t vote, which is wrong.

    The rate we’re going we’re going to need election monitors in future.

  21. 21
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Amir Khalid: Trump claims he told May how to wrap up Brexit negotiations (sue the EU!) but was ignored:

    “I’m surprised at how badly it’s all gone from the standpoint of a negotiation. I gave the prime minister my ideas on how to negotiate it and I think you would have been successful.

    “She didn’t listen to that and that’s fine – she’s got to do what she’s got to do. I think it could have been negotiated in a different manner, frankly. I hate to see everything being ripped apart now.”

    So yeah, now that the issue has brought May down, Trump won’t be able to resist crowing about how he was right all along and if she’d just followed his advice, everything would be fine. There’s no way he’ll be able to resist saying that, and probably in public .

  22. 22
    Sherparick says:

    The Tory Party & Tory voters with their racism & xenophobia have been an unqualified disaster for U.K. The Liberal Democrats decision to join these lunatics in a coalition Government in 2010 is the prime mistake for the U.K.’s tragic history over the last 9 years.

  23. 23
  24. 24
    germy says:

    Onion headline:

    Trump Warns China Not To Underestimate His Willingness To Sacrifice Every American’s Well-Being

  25. 25
    B.B.A. says:

    In other news, the Krassenstein brothers have been banned from Twitter, and the left just got a good bit less griftier.

  26. 26
    MattF says:

    @Hawes: In fact, Brits are very good at being rude. May has an opportunity here, if she wants it.

  27. 27
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @SFAW: @Hawes: I never felt sorry for her. She let her lust for power overtake whatever commonsense she may have possessed.

  28. 28
    germy says:

    @B.B.A.: I always noticed they were the FIRST to reply to PEETUS’s tweets. I think they were setting up anonymous accounts to boost each other?

    hey, since the Krassensteins just got banned, remember how this republican operative was caught operating a large bot network and is still able to use this website to lie with impunity on a daily basis? https://t.co/WBujefaXeq— Rob Rousseau (@robrousseau) May 24, 2019

  29. 29
    tobie says:

    For a long time I felt sorry for May that she inherited an impossible situation with batshit Brexiteers in her own party and a Labour Party with a duplicitous leader. It was a tough job, and the only way forward would likely have been for May to be bold and to call for a new referendum and to strong arm as many Brexiteers as possible in her own party and in Labour. But that would have required recognizing the urgency of the moment. Like Mueller she didn’t. She thought following norms and precedents would work as the institutions around her were burning down. That’s the parallel I see between the situations in the UK and the US: a failure of imagination among those implicitly or explicitly charged with saving their country from disaster.

  30. 30
    germy says:

    I was watching some documentary on UK politics, and they showed a brief clip of Boris Johnson. He was standing in front of a film crew, waiting to film his segment.

    What I found odd was that right before they rolled the cameras, he reached up to mess up his hair.
    I mean really mess it up. Ran his hands all over his head to make his hair fly all over.

    Wouldn’t most people, waiting for the cameras to roll, fix their unruly hair? Neaten themselves up?

    Is his trademark wild hair?

  31. 31
    Anonymous At Work says:

    @Betty Cracker: A subtle dig against Trump? He’d have to be paying attention and smart enough to recognize the dig. I was hoping for a nice 20-minute insult slam in front of the press or something that he can’t ignore.
    Anything slightly British will be too cerebral for him, sadly.

    @SFAW: Where did that express involving a chicken come from?!??

  32. 32

    @germy: I thought that was BS of Vt’s trademark.

  33. 33
    Betty Cracker says:

    @B.B.A.: I saw the name trending but couldn’t be arsed to click through and find out why. Good riddance! I muted them ages ago so I wouldn’t have to see their inanity retweeted into my timeline.

  34. 34
    germy says:

    @schrodingers_cat: BS has neatened up lately. Haircut and his face is smooth. Not sure if they’re rubbing product in his hair. But he looks ready for prime time.

  35. 35
    germy says:

    Onion headline:

    India Continues Surge Towards Status As First World Nation By Reelecting Racist, Right-Wing Authoritarian

  36. 36

    It doesn’t matter who the next Prime Minister is if the Conservative – and enough Labour – factions still believe in pulling off a Brexit. They still don’t have enough votes for either a Hard or Soft, it will be the same snake eating its own tail. If the hardliners force a Hard Brexit, say goodbye to the British economy. Nobody wants a Soft Brexit. The only sane response – STOP, pull back, and plan better – isn’t even on the table.

    On Twitter I compared the Tories to a monkey getting its hand stuck in a box trying to pull out a shiny Brexit and unwilling to let go. They honest-to-God can’t let go. Because they fear the Far Right media backlash, they fear alienating their own base even as they’ve alienated everyone else and burned half the Commonwealth down to get here.

    This isn’t nationalism or populism. It’s Tribalism, undying loyalty to a blind ideology. The Tribalists won.

  37. 37
    Lavocat says:

    To quote Monty Python: “And now for something completely different” … we hope.

  38. 38
    daveNYC says:

    @Hawes: She wasn’t given shit, she signed up for the job and then hung on to it longer than anyone sane or with a sense of shame would have.
    She did as good a job as anyone could have to try and implement the stupid concept of Brexit. That’s about the best one can say of her.

    Best bet is Johnson for PM. Honestly the UK politicians (specifically the more England located ones) are worse than American ones at this point. The Republicans are all bastards, but they’re still trudging along and implementing policy. In the UK both Labour and the Tories are effectively pro-Brexit while being completely unable to deliver on that promise, all while doing near bugger all on other fronts. It’s a mess and likely to get worse because there’s a chance Boris will run the clock out and go no-deal in October, and anyone other than him would probably be even worse on the subject (though I don’t think they’d legally be able to be worse, seriously, there’s no way to pass no-deal through Parliament (I hope)).

    The only non-moron party leader is Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP. Unfortunately the Scottish National Party is a little bit of a regional thing, so not likely to be in a position to take or influence power, even assuming a general election is called.

  39. 39
    Luciamia says:

    “Ungracious pig” is his default setting.

  40. 40
    Tony Jay says:

    Sympathy for May? Oh, hell no. Not even a smidgen. Fuck that right off with a crash a bang and two wallops.

    She didn’t stumble into the job. She didn’t get unfairly lumbered with someone else’s mistake. On the contrary, she wanted it, worked for it, fought for it, and got it. She chose to become the Brexit Prime Minister and went about it with the same narrow-minded, willfully cruel arrogance that she displayed as Home Secretary. This is the woman who oversaw the Windrush Scandal, deliberately targeting people of Caribbean heritage who had a right to be in Britain and deporting them to countries they barely knew. The woman who sent ‘Go Home’ vans around minority areas to intimidate asylum seekers and immigrants. Who deliberately tried to create a ‘Hostile Environment’ to deter the insufficiently white from coming to the UK. Who would later, as PM, smear Remain voters as ‘Citizens of Nowhere’, and accuse European citizens living and working in Britain of being ‘Queue Jumpers’. At every junction and without fail she used her position and the power of Government to widen the divisions the Referendum had opened and promote the worst kind of boorish, xenophobic pig-ignorance as ‘British Values’, because a boorish, xenophobic, pig-ignorant Britain is more likely to vote Conservative. Party before Country every single time, and a horrible, racist piece of shit to boot.

    Fuck her.

  41. 41
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @tobie:

    But that would have required recognizing the urgency of the moment. Like Mueller she didn’t.

    Oh come on. Since the beginning we’ve known that Mueller was never going to save us. We have to save ourselves. No offense, but what was he supposed to do? Wave a magic wand and make all the Republicans in the Senate disappear in a puff of smoke?

  42. 42
    Kay says:

    The only leeway I will give May is this. With Britain in turmoil, it will be so easy for the Tory party to claim this is all on her; to treat her as a human sponge, soaking up all the blame. But to paraphrase George Osborne – himself one of the chief architects of the chaos of our time – they are all in this together. They all imposed cuts that ripped up our social infrastructure and fuelled discontent and anger. They all whipped up resentment against migrants for the “burning injustices” they, and their party’s wealthy bankrollers, were responsible for. They all promoted an ideology which prioritises markets ahead of human needs and aspirations.
    The May era was a time of chaos; but something worse now beckons. Until Britain is rid of being ruled by a disintegrating Tory party – the proximate cause of our ills – and a rotten social order that decays further with every passing day, then the turmoil will not only continue but deepen. What a legacy to leave.

    Sound familiar?

  43. 43
    hueyplong says:

    @Luciamia: There are only two settings:

    1. Ungracious pig (default)

    2. Something worse.

  44. 44
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Wow. To a tee!

  45. 45
    tobie says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: I think the issue is what we mean by save. No I didn’t think he would be the knight in shining armor rescuing the nation. I’m too old and grizzled to fall for that crap. I did think he would fight for the legitimacy of his investigation. Daylight would have been an effective disinfectant. For reasons unknown, Mueller is shrinking from that.

  46. 46
    Kay says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷:

    I don’t really blame institutions for just not being up to this. It’s unprecedented. But I think they should realize that unless they step up and respond more effectively they’re leaving a void and that void will be filled by radicals.

    They haven’t adjusted for conditions and reality. They have to approach this differently, because they failed.

  47. 47
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @tobie:
    Isn’t he supposed to testify before Congress?

  48. 48
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Right, to about half of us. The other half are insisting it’s a blip that will be remedied with the removal of Trump. It won’t. For one thing, it’s international. It isn’t unique to the US.

  49. 49
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Trump claims he told May how to wrap up Brexit negotiations

    The blind leading the blind.

  50. 50
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Exactly right, which is why Biden’s “Trump is an aberration — let’s go back to 2015” pitch leaves me cold. Neo-fascism in the service of corrupt oligarchs is an international crisis that was decades in the making and will be decades in the undoing, if it’s undone at all. Recognizing that reality is a must before we can address it.

  51. 51
    Karen S. says:

    @Tony Jay:

    I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your perspective and knowledge of things Brexit related. I’ve always found your posts enlightening and informative. I also agree with your take on May. Once it became clear that Brexit would be a train wreck, I read up on it and May and I remember reading about her role in the Windrush scandal. After reading that, any sympathy I might have had for her up until then evaporated.

  52. 52
    Kay says:

    Dan Diamond
    ‏Verified account
    @ddiamond
    Follow Follow @ddiamond
    More
    NEW: The Trump administration is rolling back Obama-era protections for transgender patients today.

    Mean-spirited and nasty. This is what the low quality hires sit around and do all day- they look for shitty things to do. They get nothing practical accomplished but they have all the time in the world to target individuals and make sure those people know they’re lesser. A shitty, nasty workplace packed with unqualified hacks who are unemployable outside of the Trump Administration.

    Petty cruelty is the work they do.

  53. 53
    Hoodie says:

    @Kay: In other words, May is the George W. Bush of the Tory Party? Sounds about right. The fantasies surrounding Brexit sound similar to those surrounding the Iraq War. Who will be their Trump? Honestly, the remain folks in England, Wales and N. Ireland should declare themselves Scots and join the SNP. Not any sillier than making Boris Johnson PM.

  54. 54
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Ken: you mean Nigel Incubator Jones?

  55. 55
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Kay:

    Very Putinesque. Get ready for much more of the same unless we can stop them.

  56. 56
    L85NJGT says:

    Looking for a white hat, black hat analog in other political systems is problematic. She certainly wasn’t up to the task of managing the party (and national) rift caused by Brexit. I’m not sure anyone is, considering that it was a low order issue for vote sorting until very recently.

    British Steel is going under – this was a spinoff of marginal Tata Steel assets, that got done in by Brexit. EU customers stopped ordering, and a weak pound meant higher costs for imported raw materials. Their big works is in Scunthorpe, which voted 69% for leave. Ready, fire, aim.

  57. 57
    tobie says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: Sorry, if I snapped. I should have been more explicit about context. According to Rep. Nadler, Mueller does not want to testify in public. He’s fine with a transcript being released but doesn’t want to do more than give a prepared statement before the cameras. Nadler implied that part of his reason is that he doesn’t want to have to deal with Republican attempts to derail the hearing and make it all about a supposed witch hunt against the President at the FBI and the supposed angry Dems on Mueller’s staff. Part of it is he still thinks that it’s important that the rule of law not get involved in politics. For me, the failure of imagination is not recognizing that defending the rule of law is in today’s climate a political act.

  58. 58
    tobie says:

    Our very own Adam Silverman is getting star billing in this diary posted on DailyKos. Who knew there were so many readers of BJ! Congrats, Adam, for the recognition.

  59. 59
    James E Powell says:

    @Kay:

    Our institutions are not the pillars we thought them to be. We failed to recognize the changes, the erosions, that have taken place over the last 40 years.

  60. 60
    burnspbesq says:

    The UK as we have known it may not be long for this world.

    The day that customs officers reappear at the border between the Republic and Ulster will start a five-year clock on a unification referendum, which will narrowly pass if it ever happens.

    The Scots will follow along.

    Wales, unfortunately, will be stuck with England because it’s unsustainable as a standalone country. Which is too bad for Cardiff City fans, because if they were forced to play in the Welsh league they’d be in Europe every year.

  61. 61
    Jay C says:

    Add my thanks for the link to The Brexit Blog: Chris Grey really cuts to the heart of the matter: Brexit was sold to the British public on a bed of rosy promises and overoptimistic predictions, all backed with a framework of outright lies. And rather than admit to the lies, Theresa May and the whole Leaver contingent preferred to embrace them, and spend most of their political energy trying to avoid blame for the inevitable crash (which they know is coming, and don’t care) rather than trying to forestall it with serious planning.
    I’d normally say “screw ’em, serves them right”, but it’s the UK public who are going to have to deal with the fallout.

  62. 62
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @tobie: He thinks country would split with massive riots if truth were known?? Between those who believe Russia is running govt and those who view Trunp as ‘god’s chosen one’? Simmering rage is better than truth??

  63. 63
    Betty Cracker says:

    @tobie: Glad that piece is getting more attention, at least on lefty blogs. It’s hard to overstate the level of emergency this is, with a corrupt AG with a proven record of deceiving the public given this kind of power.

  64. 64
    L85NJGT says:

    @Jay C:

    It will be an accelerant on the changes the revanchists are trying to stop.

  65. 65
    Tony Jay says:

    Whoever succeeds May as Tory Party leader, we can be sure that they’re going to be a full-on Brextremist. That’s where the Party is now, with a radicalised Party membership and a Parliamentary Party that sees Farage’s alt-Right vehicle doing wheelies on their formerly fenced-off lawn, it’s going to be a festival of moronic one-upmanship as each contender seeks to out-bigot their nearest rival and win the dead hearts and empty minds of the membership. I’m sure the BBC is already ordering in extra towels and knee-pads for the fellatory marathon its Political Correspondents are about to embark upon.

    However, there could be a couple of bright sides to the prospect of the Tory Party finally ditching the screen of ideological modesty and displaying its real treasures to the nation, hair on fire and legs proudly akimbo.

    Obviously, the wider electorate will see them doing it. What appeals to the kind of paranoid fuckwit making up the modern Tory membership ought not to appeal to the kind of swing-voter who responded to the ‘Strong and Stable’ guff last time. Making the Tory Party toxic in a FPTP electoral system is an end devoutly to be wished.

    Once they have smeared themselves in the muck of 110% Unfiltered Brexshit and won those last few precious votes by promising to tow Gibraltar back to Blighty, on their own, in a confiscated Greenpeace boat, using the skins of 5, no 7, no 10 butchered Remoaners as sails, it might just be that the Conservative Party this victorious bastard heads up has no place for anyone with a functioning brain. We – could – see an exodus of more moderate Tory MPs to either the Lib Dems or the ChUkist Tinge Party, and/or a successful No Confidence vote that would trigger a General Election.

    Stranger things have happened.

  66. 66
  67. 67
    BR says:

    I remembered recently about the ancient Greek theory of Anacyclosis:

    Polybius’ sequence of anacyclosis proceeds in the following order: 1. monarchy, 2. kingship, 3. tyranny, 4. aristocracy, 5. oligarchy, 6. democracy, and 7. ochlocracy.

    According to Polybius’ elaboration of the theory, the state begins in a form of primitive monarchy. The state will emerge from monarchy under the leadership of an influential and wise king; this represents the emergence of “kingship”. Political power will pass by hereditary succession to the children of the king, who will abuse their authority for their own gain; this represents the degeneration of kingship into “tyranny”.

    Some of the more influential and powerful men of the state will grow weary of the abuses of tyrants, and will overthrow them; this represents the ascendancy of “aristocracy” (as well as the end of the “rule by the one” and the beginning of the “rule by the few”).

    Just as the descendants of kings, however, political influence will pass to the descendants of the aristocrats, and these descendants will begin to abuse their power and influence, as the tyrants before them; this represents the decline of aristocracy and the beginning of “oligarchy”. As Polybius explains, the people will by this stage in the political evolution of the state decide to take political matters into their own hands.

    This point of the cycle sees the emergence of “democracy”, as well as the beginning of “rule by the many”. In the same way that the descendants of kings and aristocrats abused their political status, so too will the descendants of democrats. Accordingly, democracy degenerates into “ochlocracy”, literally, “mob-rule”. In an ochlocracy, according to Polybius, the people of the state will become corrupted, and will develop a sense of entitlement and will be conditioned to accept the pandering of demagogues.

    Eventually, the state will be engulfed in chaos, and the competing claims of demagogues will culminate in a single (sometimes virtuous) demagogue claiming absolute power, bringing the state full-circle back to monarchy.

    Like what Kay is saying…

  68. 68
    Kay says:

    @James E Powell:

    We failed to recognize the changes, the erosions, that have taken place over the last 40 years.

    Agree. I did too, incidentally. I failed to recognize. I think I know what Mueller is doing. He doesn’t want to be Comey. He doesn’t want to make a political spectacle – the idea is the work stands by itself and if people question it, well, that’s the way it goes. He’s trying to protect the institution but the norms he is relying on have already failed. IMO.

    When institutions FAIL that has to be recognized. They can’t keep standing on ground that has disappeared. They have to find new ground, a higher spot, an island, whatever. ADJUST. Shift their thinking to the new reality.

  69. 69
    Tony Jay says:

    @Karen S.:

    ‘Enlightening and informative’? Are you sure you’ve been reading the right ones? I’ve been going for ‘vulgar and immature’. 8-)

    But you’re very kind.

  70. 70
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Tony Jay: I sure hope it works out that way. Gotta say my hopes that sanity will ultimately prevail have taken a severe beating thanks to events at home and around the world…

  71. 71
    bemused says:

    Jared Yates Sexton wrote “The Man They Wanted Me To Be” about being physically and emotionally abused by insecure and unwell men during his childhood. Sexton put up an interesting twitter thread tying that same abuse to trump attacking Pelosi which Sexton said was really, really triggering for him and sad to see the country resemble the abusive households of his youth. Sexton says “When men behave that way, those around him have few options. You either submit to their worldview or face vicious abuse, men around trump kowtow in fear constantly”.

  72. 72
    tobie says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: Don’t get it either. Not at this moment in time.

    @Betty Cracker: Yup. The idea of Trump (or any President) using the vast powers of the office to go after political opponents and perceived enemies in government is terrifying. It puts us three-quarters of the way toward a police state. The last quarter is using that vast power to spy on the public.

  73. 73
    Kay says:

    @James E Powell:

    Elites (and I use that word not sarcastically but as a real thing- we don’t, in fact, have a classless society) elites have to own their part in this. They moved away from “merit” as a measure and it shows. They cheat. 30% of kids in higher income high schools are claiming disability to get extra time for college entrance exams. They grabbed yet another leg up, in addition to the huge advantage they started with. They used all that privilege not to actually achieve but to GAME. Those kids learned this somewhere. They learned that the way to win is to CHEAT.

    Our rabble may be stupid assholes, but our elites are not living up to their billing as elites, either.

  74. 74
    tobie says:

    @Kay: You got it. And thus the need for imagination in times of crisis. You’ve got to figure out how to rebuild the institutions that have collapsed on new ground.

  75. 75
    Domestic short hair tabby says:

    @Ken: thanks for the link

  76. 76
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Barney:

    OT but the one thing I disliked about Black Panther was the senseless decision to kill off Ulysses Klaw. Not only did we lose a founding member of the Masters of Evil, but we lost Andy Serkis from the MCU forever.

  77. 77
    plato says:

    Who will be the next PM?

    All but one of them are either rabid brexshitters, or worse, overzealous ‘converts who saw the writing on the wall’.

    The only remainer exception is Amber Rudd.

  78. 78
    NotMax says:

    Time to polish up the baby blimp.

  79. 79
    L85NJGT says:

    @Kay:

    sic semper erat, et sic semper erit

    IIRC Frank Serpico said something to the effect that ten percent of a police squad room were crooks, ten percent incorruptible, and the other eighty percent went with who ever held sway. I suspect this holds true across all institutions and orders.

    “It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.”
    John Philpot Curran

  80. 80
    Tony Jay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Scummy bastards will be scummy bastards, and when they’re given real power and allowed, even encouraged, to indulge themselves with impunity they’ll do a lot of damage, not just to people’s lives and the institutions we rely on to make those lives livable, but to our souls. They’ll destroy and lay waste to nice things as long as they’re allowed to, but the wheel turns and the ride stops and people remember why they used to dislike scummy bastards in the first place.

    I’m just really irate that I’m living through one of those moral and ethical downturns. Can someone spot me a dragon for a few weeks? It’ll really speed things up if you do.

  81. 81
    Mnemosyne says:

    I have to say, I’m fairly impressed with San Jose Airport. Security was super fast and I got a ham and egg breakfast at San Jose Joe’s for $10 (though orange juice was $4). Now I have about 30 minutes to wait for my flight back to LA.

  82. 82
    J R in WV says:

    @Tony Jay:

    She [Teresa May] chose to become the Brexit Prime Minister and went about it with the same narrow-minded, willfully cruel arrogance that she displayed as Home Secretary.

    Well said!

    Tony, why hold back so much? Why not tell us what you really thing about PM May?

    ………. ;-)

  83. 83
    Tony Jay says:

    @J R in WV:

    Why not tell us what you really thing about PM May?

    Her taste in jewelry is questionable at best.

    There, I said it. It’s true.

  84. 84
    cmorenc says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    But can you imagine how extra-insufferable Trump will be now that she’s resigned? He was an ungracious pig toward May last time he visited.

    When does Trump ever act toward anyone not catering to or flattering him in any other mode than “ungracious pig” mode? Even when he’s nominally praising something as positive and admirable, he comes across as holding up a mirror to himself while saying it.

  85. 85
    Mnemosyne says:

    @The Pale Scot:

    Someone in the previous thread was comparing Mogg to Bertie Wooster, which is obviously an unfair comparison given that Bertie is sweet and kind-hearted.

    Mogg is clearly Gussie Fink-Nottle, the snotty know-it-all who only seems to be of average intelligence when you compare him to the rest of the Drones.

  86. 86
    cmorenc says:

    @tobie:

    @Kay: You got it. And thus the need for imagination in times of crisis. You’ve got to figure out how to rebuild the institutions that have collapsed on new ground.

    It will be made more difficult to successfully do so by the narrow 5-4 RW SCOTUS majority deliberately intent on making new ground to rebuild upon inaccessible.

  87. 87
    James E Powell says:

    @Kay:

    Agree completely. So many people who are already rich and powerful do nothing but work to get more money and power.

  88. 88
    Kraux Pas says:

    @plato:

    Who will be the next PM?

    All but one of them are either rabid brexshitters, or worse, overzealous ‘converts who saw the writing on the wall’.

    Theresa May be missed before long.

  89. 89
    Sab says:

    @burnspbesq: Didn’t Wales vote to Leave?

  90. 90
    chris says:

    ICYMI

    In all honesty the bookies' ideas of who will be the next Tory leader aren't that bad pic.twitter.com/Q8bITGJBy7— TechnicallyRon (@TechnicallyRon) 24 May 2019

  91. 91
    WereBear says:

    On the other hand, we get another crop of Scot insults, and they are a competitive bunch.

  92. 92
    PJ says:

    @James E Powell: @Kay: I don’t know who “we” are, but the flouting and eventual dismissal of norms by Republicans has been going on since the ’80s and Iran-Contra. (Christ, Reagan made a deal with the Iranians that he would ship them weapons in exchange for not releasing the hostages until after he was in office – how much more of a fucking example of party over country (and citizens!) do you want?) But no one was ever punished, not then, not with the lies leading up to the Iraq War and the subsequent war crimes, not ever. And we see the result now. McConnell refused to have hearings on Merrick Garland for a year because he knew any consequences would be trivial for Republicans. He refused to stand with Obama in denouncing Russian interference in the election, and instead said he would denounce Obama for trying to tip the scales, because he knew any consequences would be trivial.

    This has to stop. Those who have broken laws have to be put on trial. Norms which have been ignored and treated as if they never existed have to be made into laws. The people who have worked so hard to turn this country into an oligarchy for the benefit of the .1% but who cannot be convicted of a crime need to be shunned from public life forever. This will be a hard task, not least because the media act as if Trump is a buffoon, but everything else is hunky dory in the republic. But there is no longer any normal to go back to.

  93. 93
  94. 94
    Raven says:

    A GOP representative on Friday blocked what would have been a unanimous vote on disaster relief funding legislation because it does not contain funding for border security.

  95. 95
    trollhattan says:

    @Sloane Ranger:
    “People are talking about D Day more and more all the time.”

    Bets on whether Donny insists on Japan hosting him in August of next year for the Hiroshima 75th? “We’re going to have a celebration, an amazing party, the biggest ever, believe me.”

  96. 96
    VOR says:

    @cmorenc: The trip will be bad. They will have to keep Trump away from any populated areas for fear of the protests and the “Trump baby” balloon. He’s going to feel extra entitled because he is still in power while she is on her way out. Trump is bringing his four adult children along as support. He’ll probably insist his buddy Nigel Farage be invited to official events. Per CNN “there will be no carriage procession, and the Queen is unable to host the presidential couple overnight at the palace”. I bet Obama got both of those and that fact will eat at him. I expect him to make tone deaf statements about knowing the secret to successful Brexit negotiations while insulting the competence of his hosts. I expect a violation of protocol in his private audience with the Queen since he won’t listen to anyone briefing him on the correct protocol.

  97. 97
    trollhattan says:

    @Tony Jay:
    Before going back for a third read, a question about this bit. Our Republican Party, instead of ditching the radical rump and returning to sanity and something resembling centrist conservatism, doubled and tripled-down and drove out anybody who smelled of compromise. The RINOs are all gone and the loons are firmly (permanently?) in charge.

    Might the Tories do the same?

    it might just be that the Conservative Party this victorious bastard heads up has no place for anyone with a functioning brain. We – could – see an exodus of more moderate Tory MPs to either the Lib Dems or the ChUkist Tinge Party, and/or a successful No Confidence vote that would trigger a General Election.

  98. 98
    hueyplong says:

    @VOR: Those are merely the givens, the stone cold locks.

    There will be an additional outrage at some point as Trump reacts to something happening in front of him or back home.

  99. 99
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @MattF:

    In fact, Brits are very good at being rude. May has an opportunity here, if she wants it.

    It’s not rude if the Soviet shitpile mobster conman deserves it.

    The protests against Dump and his handler (Putin will be there to see his bitch, no?) should be something.

  100. 100
    Peale says:

    @Raven: I HATE OUR LEGISLATIVE PROCESS THAT CAN NOT PASS ANY BILLS WITHOUT RESORTING TO TRICKS. ITS CUMBERSOME. WORTHLESS. AND I JUST CAN’T SUPPORT THIS CRAP ANYMORE. SORRY FOR THE ALL CAPS BUT I AM INDEED ACTUALLY SHOUTING.

  101. 101
    trollhattan says:

    @mrmoshpotato:
    The downside of that is subtlety is lost on Donny, whistling past his fiberglass pate like a sheepdog past an arthritic cow.

  102. 102
    Brachiator says:

    @batguano:

    Boris Johnson is expected to replace her?

    There will be a fight for leadership. Johnson wants it. Bad. So does posh pimp Jacob Rees-Mogg. Both men are caricatures of Tory leadership, but may not be acceptable because neither can pretend to care about the average white Brit without breaking into a laugh. Needless to say, they don’t give a shit about anyone else.

    Now that May has been ejected, look for an attempt to oust Bercow as Speaker of the Commons. Both major parties hate him, a sign that he has been doing a good job.

    I look forward to seeing the new Conservative leadership take over the UK, currently a second rate nation, and transform it into a third rate country.

  103. 103
    greenergood says:

    @Ken: Here is another steady Brexit commentator’s take on May’s resignation (sorry don’t knowhow to link ….): https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/24/may-ends-her-premiership-as-she-started-it-with-the-greatest

  104. 104
    Aleta says:

    @germy: that onion headline seems real enough considering he’s been receptive to China’s efforts to change US rules about the chicken trade. it’s in his interest to use chicken to try to offset other damage he’s done. it started with helping us beef producers and seems to be continuing.

  105. 105
    raven says:

    @Peale: They are shouting at Mexico Beach.

  106. 106
    rikyrah says:

    Good riddance 😠😠 😠

  107. 107
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @WereBear: Scottish insults directed at May, Dump, or both?

  108. 108
    Brachiator says:

    @Kay:

    Elites (and I use that word not sarcastically but as a real thing- we don’t, in fact, have a classless society) elites have to own their part in this. They moved away from “merit” as a measure and it shows. They cheat. 30% of kids in higher income high schools are claiming disability to get extra time for college entrance exams. They grabbed yet another leg up, in addition to the huge advantage they started with.

    Elites have always been cheats. It’s how they got there in the first place.

    Many in the middle class cheat when they get an opportunity. They may use a friend’s or relative’s address to get their kid into a better school district or fudge Information on a financial aid application.

  109. 109
    matryoshka says:

    @Kay:

    They moved away from “merit” as a measure and it shows. They cheat. 30% of kids in higher income high schools are claiming disability to get extra time for college entrance exams. They grabbed yet another leg up, in addition to the huge advantage they started with.

    They cheat because they think measures to grant equality and access to “lesser” members of society is cheating, and their using those tools to discredit equality is backlash.

  110. 110
    Tony Jay says:

    @trollhattan:

    The possibility is there and very real, it’s already well on the way. Like the frog in the slowly warming pot it’s easy to miss just how incredibly extreme the Tories have become since the Referendum.

    They’re going to come out of this leadership massacre with a firm policy of leaving the EU with no withdrawal deal. It’s what a majority of their electorate have been propagandised to want, and since their idea of ‘negotiating’ with Europe looks more like demanding homage and tribute from a defeated foe, it’s probably what any new Tory PM will have to pursue.

    In that case, yeah, I can definitely see a big chunk of Tories breaking away, which of course leads to the rump demanding an even harsher surge to the Right to prove that they were only being held back by all those losers anyway.

    Are there enough votes on the far-Right to let the Extreme Tories replicate the GOP’s recent success in consolidating power…… I’d like to say no way, but that’s really something we’ll have to find out along the way.

  111. 111
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @trollhattan: “Subtilewhat? Why does everyone talk funny on this island? Where are all your gold toilets?”

  112. 112
    Brachiator says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I was struck by allusions in May’s speech to fighting climate change, discrimination, etc. — the GOP doesn’t even pretend to care about those issues anymore.

    These were self serving lies.

    Tony Jay nails it

    This is the woman who oversaw the Windrush Scandal, deliberately targeting people of Caribbean heritage who had a right to be in Britain and deporting them to countries they barely knew.

    Note that the Windrush Generation had explicitly been invited to Britain to help rebuild the country after World War 2. How in the fuck do you turn around and hurt these people and claim that you have fought discrimination?

    To hell with May. The sad thing is that the UK may end up with someone worse.

  113. 113
    Kraux Pas says:

    Wait, is it too late to come up with the name “Boorish Johnson?”

  114. 114
    SFAW says:

    @Anonymous At Work:

    Where did that express involving a chicken come from?!??

    The origin of the expression “keep on fucking that chicken” is shrouded in the mists of antiquity.

    ETA: I was going to attempt to make a chicken-and-egg joke. but “keep on fucking that egg” sounds like something the Moron-in-Chief would say.

  115. 115
    Brachiator says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Are there enough votes on the far-Right to let the Extreme Tories replicate the GOP’s recent success in consolidating power…… I’d like to say no way, but that’s really something we’ll have to find out along the way.

    I’ve read that people will be looking to see how hard BREXIT candidates do in the current European Elections to gauge how the Tories and Labour might do in a general election.

    Also, wouldn’t you expect a new PM to layout a proposal for a hard BREXIT before newly elected MEPs have to sit in the European parliament on July 2?

    I also presume that the Tories will do everything they can to kill any attempt to get a second referendum on BREXIT. Or to get a general election.

  116. 116
    Brachiator says:

    @SFAW:

    ETA: I was going to attempt to make a chicken-and-egg joke. but “keep on fucking that egg” sounds like something the Moron-in-Chief would say

    Of course, fertilized eggs are sacred to the GOP. Chickens, not so much.

  117. 117
    SFAW says:

    @Brachiator:

    To hell with May. The sad thing is that the UK may end up with someone worse.

    Here’s an idea: someone should tell the Traitor-in-Chief that he can only become King and Prime Minister if he resigns as TOTUS, and then submits his application for the job(s) — but he MUST resign first. Tell him he’ll get the Nobel Peace Prize for Everything, something that That Black Guy could NEVER get. And tell him that once he gets to be King, he can have all the hot British babes he wants. Plus, as an added benefit, he can demand tribute in Pounds Sterling, which he can then have gold-plated.

    I see it as a win-win-win scenario.

    ETA: And if the Brits don’t like it, tough shit — we got a world to save here.

  118. 118
    Ruckus says:

    @James E Powell:
    We thought them to be those pillars because that made it easy. And it’s not easy. We are over 300 million people. Some are massive racists, so anything that might bring equality or help to the people they hate, they are against. Some are wealthy beyond anything but greed, which means they will do anything to remain abhorrently wealthy and there is only so much to go around at any one time so for them to remain abhorrently wealthy they have to engineer to hurt the country. Some are afraid of the future because it is unknown and that terrifies them, not knowing what tomorrow brings.
    The point is that governing a free country this size (or any size) is hard. There are a lot of competing forces at work. Right now the rich racists are winning. But they are not the majority of people. Their desires are mostly superficial and would make their lives worse – they would be happy to live under a bridge eating a sparrow on a curtain rod, cooked over a 55 gallon drum, as long as their “opposition” didn’t have a sparrow. The world is changing, effectively getting smaller, the workforce is no longer one country against the rest, it is many countries working at pieces of the puzzle. The old force that think that their country is the greatest and will do anything to obtain/remain in that position will not prevail but will create a mess going down. Conservatism is that force, that thinks to remain the predominate power is the only thing, be it within humanity, within the financial world, within the political world, they have to regress to the past, when they thought that they were the top of the heap. But they weren’t, they were just another turd upon the pile of ill informed, scared people, people who think they are special, when they really, really aren’t. Humanity has become based upon the idea that certain groups are special, when it is anything but. People can stand out, good or bad, but superficial groups based upon gathering hate or money can only stand out as bad and make governing the whole damn near impossible.

  119. 119
    Fair Economist says:

    @Hawes:

    I feel bad for May, frankly. She was against Brexit, Cameron abandoned the sinking ship and her party has gone insane. She was given an impossible task that turned out to be impossible.

    She took it on voluntarily and even eagerly. And given how close several of the indicative votes were, she could probably have gotten something through if she’d been willing to support them and deal on things like Common Market access and a confirmatory vote – all of which she’s offered in the past two weeks, after she’d lame ducked herself and could no longer offer anything substantial.

  120. 120
    Ruckus says:

    @Brachiator:

    The sad thing is that the UK may end up with someone worse.

    Too late. We beat them to the punch.

  121. 121
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Brachiator: Yeah, the word “pretend” was kind of a clue there.

  122. 122
    Aleta says:

    @Peale: I’ve always liked the sound of “dissolving the legislature” to call for an election; and I wish our system could have a citizen’s vote of no confidence. (At the same time, I see how no confidence in our gov’t in general, getting majorities to not trust it and to not trust the media to tell the truth, are what the libertarians and Tea Party have been advocating since the 80s.) So it also bums me out to see that continue to succeed. overall I’m in a rage and mourning all the time.

  123. 123
    KSinMA says:

    @Tony Jay: Thank you.

  124. 124
    Ruckus says:

    @Tony Jay:
    It really sounds like conservatives (small c, political leaning, not name) around the world have decided that now is the time to go all in, to grab every live wire they can find, to see which pile of hurt will be the worst. I often wonder if they do this to show that they were right, that any progress is wrong. Or that hiding in their shells shaking in fear of the world really is the best way to live.

  125. 125
    Cheryl from Maryland says:

    Totally agree with Tony Jay — Teresa May’s actions at the Home Office, especially Windrush, were racist. But those who are pro-Brexit are racist — and stupid ones at that. Yesterday the FTFNYT had an article were those voting for the Brexit Party in the EU elections commented on how there were too many people from Africa and South Asia in the UK. People who are in the UK because of the Commonwealth!

  126. 126
    Aleta says:

    @Tony Jay: Thanks for your comments. You know, they say that frogs do jump out of those pots. Because they’re better at leaving destructive situations than we are? (Also you never see frogs using Round Up and other chemicals that hurt them and their frog eggs and their food.)

  127. 127
    tobie says:

    This seems to be the one open thread open, so I’ll take the risk of posting something off the topic of Brexit. I stopped watching the Daily Show after Jon Stewart left so maybe I missed what a courageous dude Jordan Klepper is. But, boy, he’s courageous. I cried when I saw this spot that Hillary Clinton linked to:

    @HillaryClinton
    Thank you for this comedy with purpose, @JordanKlepper. I’m so heartened by the activists, educators, and faith leaders who stand up for the rights of undocumented students.

    “Education, not segregation.”

    I’ve been thinking a lot about the intersection of immigrant rights and civil rights recently and this one segment drives that home.

  128. 128
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @SFAW: “keep on fucking that egg” is being recognized more and more. Many people are saying, and many people don’t know this at the same time.

  129. 129
    Brachiator says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yeah, the word “pretend” was kind of a clue there.

    You wrote that the GOP didn’t even pretend to care about climate, etc.

    I was not clear on how you thought this applied to May. But I appreciate the clarification, and also wanted to supply further detail about the Windrush Generation for others who might not know about this sad event or May’s role in it.

  130. 130
    Quaker in a Basement says:

    But can you imagine how extra-insufferable Trump will be now that she’s resigned? He was an ungracious pig toward May last time he visited.

    But then again, she’s on her way out the door. No incentive at all to be diplomatic. I hope she’s been watching Pelosi and taking notes.

  131. 131
    Brachiator says:

    @Cheryl from Maryland:

    Yesterday the FTFNYT had an article were those voting for the Brexit Party in the EU elections commented on how there were too many people from Africa and South Asia in the UK.

    The Times jammed too much into the story in their attempt to provide background. To your point:

    Mr. Page said he had watched his town change considerably in the past few decades, with the white British population dropping to 50 percent in 2011 from 80 percent a decade earlier in the borough of Barking and Dagenham. During the same period, many immigrants arrived from Africa and Southeast Asia.

    But earlier, the story noted that Page previously supported Labour, but was now voting for the Lib Dems because they are a Remain party. The article appears to falsely ascribe anti-immigrant BREXIT sentiment to this particular voter.

  132. 132
    TenguPhule says:

    @Hawes:

    I feel bad for May, frankly. She was against Brexit, Cameron abandoned the sinking ship and her party has gone insane

    You shouldn’t. As Home Sec, she was a prime contributor to the attitude that made Brexit possible.

    If anyone has secret Brexit inclinations, its her.

  133. 133
    TenguPhule says:

    @Tony Jay: Your way with words is genius, my friend.

  134. 134
    Raoul says:

    @Ken: Wow, that Chris Grey piece is fascinating. I haven’t tracked Brexit terribly closely, but have always felt it was likely to be a disaster. It sounds like she made a bad situation worse, and will hand her successor a flaming wreck.
    Ireland, I suspect, will be in rough shape, and good g-d, Boris Johnson? The Trumping of Britain continues apace. Gaah.

  135. 135
    TenguPhule says:

    @Tony Jay:

    We – could – see an exodus of more moderate Tory MPs to either the Lib Dems or the ChUkist Tinge Party, and/or a successful No Confidence vote that would trigger a General Election.

    And once again, despite all accusations to the contrary, it turns out Jeremy Corbyn knew what he was doing. And is still there while May is going away.

    But he’s going to get the Hillary Clinton treatment again for being right.

  136. 136
    TenguPhule says:

    @tobie:

    It puts us three-quarters of the way toward a police state. The last quarter is using that vast power to spy on the public.

    Hate to tell you this, we’re at 4 out of 4. The spying already started post 9/11.

  137. 137
    Tony Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    Since the only policy of the Brexit Party seems to be No Deal, and they’re expected to do pretty well, I’d bet good money that the Tories are going to proclaim their fealty to the Hardest of Hard Brexits no matter what. They want and need those voters badly.

    And I’m not convinced that the Tories are going to come out of this leadership contest with enough MPs to form a Government. It’s unlikely, but depending on how extreme and far to the Right their winning candidate has to go I could see the Remainers and non-loons jumping ship, or at least supporting a No Confidence resolution to force a GE and save the Party from itself.

    Remember, any Brextremist PM doesn’t have to pass a law to get a No Deal, it’s the default position should a withdrawal deal not be passed. They can grandstand and faff about to their hearts content, let the MEPs go to Brussels to stir up trouble, and just wait. They wouldn’t – have – to propose anything but EU surrender.

  138. 138
    TenguPhule says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    OT but the one thing I disliked about Black Panther was the senseless decision to kill off Ulysses Klaw. Not only did we lose a founding member of the Masters of Evil, but we lost Andy Serkis from the MCU forever.

    Between the mirror universes and time travel, nothing is forever.

  139. 139
    Raoul says:

    @rk: I wonder if Trump will waive off? Is he going to want her loser stink on him?
    And the UK will be in high chaos, I’d think the street protests against him might be huge. But I suppose Boris et al may try to kiss his ring? Or will they read the winds as blowing against Donnie.
    I sure wish we lived in less interesting times, though.

  140. 140
    TenguPhule says:

    @cmorenc:

    It will be made more difficult to successfully do so by the narrow 5-4 RW SCOTUS majority deliberately intent on making new ground to rebuild upon inaccessible.

    To rebuild all the institutions, first the existing rot has to be completely burned to the ground.

  141. 141
    Raoul says:

    @Betty Cracker: Oh, absolutely. I mean, going back to 2015 still means McConnell is an amoral son of a swine, we had 17 Benghazi! investigations (or whatever dumb number), and on and on….

    That’s a terrible time to be nostalgic for, only seeming OK because the current chaos is so much worse. I mean, jezus, people, we all knew going back just 8 more years, Bush Jr was the worst president in modern history. Trump trebling down didn’t undo Dubya’s harms, they just look like conventional arson while we’re watching the GOP neutron bomb us now.

  142. 142
    Brachiator says:

    @Tony Jay:

    And I’m not convinced that the Tories are going to come out of this leadership contest with enough MPs to form a Government.

    But here’s the thing. The Conservatives have an advantage. They can elect a new leader and get a new PM without having to go through a general election. And then a new PM can roll into a no deal BREXIT without doing much of anything.

    Now, here is where things get complicated. There may not be enough time to organize a second referendum unless a new PM asks for another extension. This is not going to happen with a Conservative PM.

    There is not enough time to have general election, form a new government, and come up with a new deal unless the UK asks for an extension from the EU. Again, this is unlikely.

    Both the Conservatives and Corbyn want BREXIT. The Labour party itself is split. The Tories and Corbyn think that they can successfully navigate a post BREXIT Britain. I think that anyone who believes this is a fool.

    I don’t see much hope for Remain supporters.

    A general election is not going to solve the BREXIT conundrum, even if the country can get there.

    Also, it will be interesting to see a new PM formally repudiate May’s negotiated deal. Both the politicians and the UK political press seem to believe that the EU is eager to roll over and please the UK. These people are delusional.

  143. 143
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    Both the Conservatives and Corbyn want BREXIT. The Labour party itself is split.

    For the Nth time, Corbyn wanting Brexit is a rightwinger smear that has no evidence to support it.

    Too many British voters apparently want to self-immolate, that’s the problem.

  144. 144
    zhena gogolia says:

    @SFAW: @mrmoshpotato:

    Oh, come on, you don’t know the origins of that?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sVVl2EKgUU

  145. 145
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ruckus: The people you are talking about are not conservatives. They are far right fascist sympathizers if not outright fascists.

  146. 146
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Both the Conservatives and Corbyn want BREXIT. The Labour party itself is split.

    For the Nth time, Corbyn wanting Brexit is a rightwinger smear that has no evidence to support it.

    You keep saying this despite the obvious facts. Corbyn has supported a customs union, which is not the same as staying in the EU.

    And you have had to acknowledge that Corbyn has tried to walk a tightrope in order to appease pro BREXIT Labour constituents.

    Right wing smears? Nope, sorry.

    See this, for example.

    https://youtu.be/yeEoVQOukgA

  147. 147
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    Corbyn has supported a customs union, which is not the same as staying in the EU.

    And you have had to acknowledge that Corbyn has tried to walk a tightrope in order to appease pro BREXIT Labour constituents.

    Having to balance competing interests to keep his party together does not in any shape, way or form indicate personal preference. Corbyn campaigned for remain and gave a realistic critique that he thought the EU could have been better, but that GB was better off inside then out.

    Keep in mind that he has to keep a bunch of idiots inside the caucus who are so fucking stupid that they prefer trying to depose him from leadership of Labour instead of focusing on the real problem, the Tories.

    Now if Corbyn becomes PM and then were to go through with Brexit in any shape or form, you could make an argument that he wanted it. But as Opposition leader, his only job is currently to collapse the current incompetents into a general election and get a majority of seats.

    Seriously, he is the male Hillary Clinton of GB.

  148. 148
    Ruckus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    At this point I’m not seeing the difference.
    It’s possible that at some point in the past I might have agreed with you. But I’m really not seeing this any longer.

  149. 149
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Having to balance competing interests to keep his party together does not in any shape, way or form indicate personal preference.

    It works for you that Corbyn has not clearly and strongly spoken out in favor of remaining in the EU. I think it cowardice and bullshit. But it is absurd to acknowledge his reticence and his political motives in doing so and simultaneously suggest that he is a victim of a right wing smear.

    And the link I provided shows a committed lefty calling Corbyn out for his cowardice.

    Now if Corbyn becomes PM and then were to go through with Brexit in any shape or form, you could make an argument that he wanted it.

    As I’ve noted, the BREXIT question might be settled in a no deal option long before a general election is called. And there is no guarantee that Labour would win a majority. At best, Corbyn would inherit a post BREXIT country. And I stand by my conclusion that he would be quite happy with this outcome.

  150. 150
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ruckus: Yeah, silly me using definitions of words as they are used by political scientists. People who call themselves conservatives today are actually about as conservative as the DDR was democratic.

  151. 151
    Tony Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    But here’s the thing. The Conservatives have an advantage. They can elect a new leader and get a new PM without having to go through a general election. And then a new PM can roll into a no deal BREXIT without doing much of anything.

    That’ basically what I just said. My proviso was that the leadership election itself could very well compel the victorious candidate to plant their flag so far out there on the wilder shores of Brexitremist fantasyland in pursuit of that elusive aura of ‘strength’ that they simply can’t tack back towards reality without doing a full 180%. The Party goes with them, and the more moderate Tories have no option but to put down the Tory whip and declare themselves independent. I could certainly see quite a few of them moving over to the ChUks; since it’s already got an ex-Tory at the helm and is basically just a Stop Corbyn vehicle anyway. That would cost a Hard Brexit Tory Leader the votes needed to pass a budget, which would mean no automatic ascension to the Prime Ministership.

    Unlikely? Maybe, but we’re in uncharted waters here anyway.

    Both the Conservatives and Corbyn want BREXIT. The Labour party itself is split. The Tories and Corbyn think that they can successfully navigate a post BREXIT Britain. I think that anyone who believes this is a fool.

    No. I’ve said this a lot here so I won’t belabor the point. Corbyn wants the Labour Party to be responsive to its membership, and the membership voted at the Party Conference to try and force a General Election, after which Labour would negotiate a Brexit deal with the EU that met its Tests. If it couldn’t get a deal on those terms (which it couldn’t, IMHO) then all options were on the table, including a Second Referendum. That’s what he’s pursued, out in the open and without wavering. It’s a strategy that has kept the Labour Party in one piece through this whole nightmare, despite the fact that it has a sizable minority of MPs who either support the concept of Brexit or have constituents who do, and this feat has pissed off the political media no end. There is no way a majority of Labour MPs would vote for a Brexit deal without a confirmatory vote. I know it. Corbyn knows it. Even Theresa May knew it. Everything else is just political spin until such a time as we have a Labour Government that can actually do something about it.

  152. 152
    Cacti says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I can’t say that I ever recall Hillary Clinton calling Osama bin Laden’s death a tragedy.

  153. 153
    Tony Jay says:

    @Ruckus:

    It really sounds like conservatives (small c, political leaning, not name) around the world have decided that now is the time to go all in, to grab every live wire they can find, to see which pile of hurt will be the worst.

    Absolutely. And it’s not hard to suspect it’s been organised to do just that. Adam has written a bit about the links forged between the various authoritarian factions around the globe, be they in Government or outside, scratching each others backs and conspiring to support the worst and most regressive elements in each other’s countries. We’re seeing it clear as day over here with Nigel Farage and his suspiciously funded astro-turf operation constructed by Americans on a Hungarian model using Italian IT structures with Russian backing. The question isn’t so much what do we do about it? It’s what can we do that will work in time?

    That’s too gloomy. Sorry. Let’s just Fuckem.

  154. 154
    Bill Arnold says:

    This from Marcy Wheeler/emptywheel today made me smile:
    Trump Claims He Was Joking When He Gave Russian Hackers a Wish List to Hack Hillary, But His Senior Aides Disagree (Bold mine)

    But it’s also worth looking at the abundant evidence that Trump wasn’t joking about his request that Russians find Hillary’s emails, particularly now that, with the superseding Julian Assange indictment, Trump’s DOJ considers the theft of documents in response to someone wishing they’ll be stolen tantamount to complicity in that theft.

    Mike Flynn, Rick Gates, and Paul Manafort all testified how serious Trump was about finding these emails. And while Stone would probably lie about the content of his calls with the candidate, there are two witnesses (Michael Cohen and Gates) to Stone’s calls with him on the topic.
    This was Trump’s wish list, just the same as WikiLeaks had a wish list that DOJ is now using to charge Julian Assange with Espionage.
    If a wish list is enough to get Assange charged with conspiring to steal the documents on the wish list, then DOJ should treat Trump’s wish list for stolen documents with equal gravity.

  155. 155
    Tony Jay says:

    @Aleta:

    You know, they say that frogs do jump out of those pots.

    This is true. Pepe ain’t nobody’s fool, and one day, he will have his revenge.

  156. 156
    Tony Jay says:

    But he’s going to get the Hillary Clinton treatment again for being right.

    He’s going to get the Hilary Clinton treatment because he was supposed to be an embarrassing footnote in Labour history that the ‘real’ politicians would easily dispatch, until he won two landslide elections. Then he was supposed to be crushed by the unstoppable leviathan of May’s 20 point lead in the polls, until he took away May’s majority and left the nation’s political ‘experts’ as gobsmacked as I have ever seen them. Now they can see Brexit destroying the Tories and leaving his Labour movement as the obvious winner in a FPTP election, which explains the non-stop relentless negativity and bullshit smears.

    Sigh. Nothing to be done about it except win regardless.

  157. 157
    Tony Jay says:

    @Cacti:

    I can’t say that I ever recall Hillary Clinton calling Osama bin Laden’s death a tragedy.

    Funny story. I remember Jeremy Corbyn giving an interview where he said what a tragedy it was that Osama Bin Laden was killed before he could be put on trial for his crimes, then that gobshite David Cameron had his people edit the clip to make it sound like Corbyn was saying Osama’s death itself was a tragedy and the Media ran with it for a bit, because they like smearing opponents of Conservatives and have no shame.

    What’s funny is that they thought a bit of deceptive editing would fool anyone but the most credulous of dickheads. More fool them, eh?

  158. 158
    The Pale Scot says:

    @Tony Jay:

    At every junction and without fail she used her position and the power of Government to widen the divisions the Referendum had opened and promote the worst kind of boorish, xenophobic pig-ignorance as ‘British Values’, because a boorish, xenophobic, pig-ignorant Britain is more likely to vote Conservative. Party before Country every single time, and a horrible, racist piece of shit to boot.

    Here Here! That easily gets lost among all the other bullshit going on

  159. 159
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti: But she did make the Bosnia sniper fire gaffe.

  160. 160
    Cacti says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Is that interpretation supposed to make it sound better?

  161. 161
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    It works for you that Corbyn has not clearly and strongly spoken out in favor of remaining in the EU. I think it cowardice and bullshit. But it is absurd to acknowledge his reticence and his political motives in doing so and simultaneously suggest that he is a victim of a right wing smear.

    And the link I provided shows a committed lefty calling Corbyn out for his cowardice.

    Its not cowardice, its the political reality that May, the Tories and the Rightwing Brexiters were salivating to see Corbyn take a firm anti-Breixt stance so they could savage him for it and label him even further as a “fifth columnist”. I’ve paid attention to the history behind the smears thrown at him, its been a consistent theme of the Murdock rags to try and nail him as “Foreign controlled” and he’s had to steer a very tight course to avoid the worst of it, and keep in mind, the British press has demonstrated a level of bias on par with FOX news and Bengahzi.

    And I repeat, as opposition leader he has ZERO power in the official government beyond the Labour votes in Parliament. Green Lantern willpower would not change a thing because HE DOES NOT HAVE THE VOTES.

    He has less power then Nancy Pelosi but somehow more is demanded of him then her and all the revilement is aimed his way.

    He didn’t make the problem, he didn’t support the problem, Labour’s voters are split on Brexit, but somehow he’s at fault?

  162. 162
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    Is that interpretation supposed to make it sound better?

    Corbyn has stuck by his principles of wanting the process of justice to be more then just executions without trial.

    Considering GB’s long sordid history of doing so just in the last century alone, he has a point.

  163. 163
    Brachiator says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Corbyn wants the Labour Party to be responsive to its membership, and the membership voted at the Party Conference to try and force a General Election, after which Labour would negotiate a Brexit deal with the EU that met its Tests. If it couldn’t get a deal on those terms (which it couldn’t, IMHO) then all options were on the table, including a Second Referendum.

    But that’s just it. All options are not on the table. Time and circumstance are Labour’s enemies.

    Both the Conservatives and Labour keep dicking around with empty proposals and emptier indicative votes that contradict each other.

    And Labour won’t clearly support Remain. It can’t. So both the Conservatives and Labour keep dangling the empty promise of a better BREXIT deal that is superior to May’s weak offer. And of course, Corbyn never offers any details. He doesn’t have to, but I don’t think he has a clue.

    Conservatives and Labour and even some of the minor parties also believe that they can continue to inconclusively fight over this forever, because they foolishly believe that the EU desperately needs Britain. The assumption seems to be that the EU will accept whatever they are offered.

    Or will wait around until the UK decides… something.

    This is madness. I also think the political media are fools for indulging this nonsense and pretending that these political games mean anything to real human beings.

  164. 164
    Lulymay says:

    @Betty Cracker: Don’t count on even a not-so-subtle comment to the t-rump crowd. When you got Elmira Gantry Sanders and the non-stop Talking Blonde who appears to have been on some sort of speed since she was a tot, subtlety or non just flies right over their bobble heads. I don’t feel sorry for May though. She called an early election thinking she would grab another easy four years of power and it back-fired, giving her a minority government. That’s when the old boys club decided she was toast. See, the thing that’s valuable about a parliamentary system is that we have ways of punishing a poorly performing government and forcing them to behave and actually govern before we will allow them to have another four to f-up.

  165. 165
    Cacti says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Pure crap. Osama bin Laden was an enemy combatant, who considered himself at war with the United States, and who was covered by a duly enacted authorization for the use of military force. As an active belligerent, who made no attempt to surrender peacefully, he was subject to the rules of war, not of civilian criminal process.

    His death is no more a tragedy than that of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in 1943, who was also assassinated by US forces.

  166. 166
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Tony Jay: Hmm…why, I *almost* get the impression you think Corbyn has gotten a bad rap!//

  167. 167
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    And of course, Corbyn never offers any details. He doesn’t have to, but I don’t think he has a clue.

    And this is the bias talking.

    Again, do some research on the relentless attacks on his character from day one of his election as Labour leader. You’ll find a lot of your attitude towards him probably came from many of those constant stream of bullshit stories against him.

    Thought exercise: Read the stories, then replace Corbyn with Clinton in your head as you read it.

    Conservatives and Labour and even some of the minor parties also believe that they can continue to inconclusively fight over this forever, because they foolishly believe that the EU desperately needs Britain.

    GB politics isn’t like ours. The majority party controls government, the opposition only gets to bitch about it. The only way forward is for the Tory government to fall and that has been Corbyn’s end goal from his first election.

    And after he’s won two party elections for leadership, held the bulk of the party together despite 3 years of endless complaints by they very people who couldn’t beat him and managing a political upset against the Tories that’s probably going to be required learning in GB politics from now on, perhaps extend him just the benefit of the doubt that he might, just might have a plan?

  168. 168
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    Pure crap. Osama bin Laden was an enemy combatant, who considered himself at war with the United States, and who was covered by a duly enacted authorization for the use of military force. As an active belligerent, who made no attempt to surrender peacefully, he was subject to the rules of war, not of civilian criminal process

    Are you not familiar with the Irish Troubles at all?

  169. 169
    Tony Jay says:

    @Cacti:

    It’s not ‘supposed’ to do anything. It lays out the origins of the smear and why it’s trumped up bullshit designed to make a perfectly rational and widely held opinion into something dickheads can pretend to be scandalized about. What you do with that knowledge is up to your own native intelligence and your conscience.

  170. 170
    J R in WV says:

    @Cheryl from Maryland:

    … But those who are pro-Brexit are racist — and stupid ones at that…. those voting for the Brexit Party in the EU elections commented on how there were too many people from Africa and South Asia in the UK. People who are in the UK because of the Commonwealth!

    Like the fact that those brown people are also citizens of the Commonwealth will stop the British racists from returning them to their countries of origin, regardless of their ability to speak the language. No birth-right citizenship in Britain, right?

  171. 171
    Tony Jay says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    You may think that, I couldn’t possibly comment.

    Twirls mustache.

  172. 172
    J R in WV says:

    @Ruckus:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    At this point I’m not seeing the difference.
    It’s possible that at some point in the past I might have agreed with you. But I’m really not seeing this any longer.

    Yes. Fascist sympathizers ARE Fascists, this becomes obvious the farther we go in that direction!

  173. 173
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    He didn’t make the problem, he didn’t support the problem, Labour’s voters are split on Brexit, but somehow he’s at fault?

    Corbyn is supposed to be party leader. He ain’t leading.

    Again, I say that Corbyn is pro BREXIT and would like to see a customs union, based on his own past statements. You can’t get around this with claims of a right wing smear.

    Are you saying that the idiot press would claim that Corbyn was controlled by foreign interests if he more firmly supported Remain? If this is the case, he is in a tough spot. But again, he is the party leader. Life is tough.

    I understand that Corbyn is trying to placate Labour voters who support Leave. I don’t think this strategy will help him in the long run. And I think that this has led to acts of cowardice on his part.

  174. 174
    Tony Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    You don’t think he has a clue, I disagree.

    Labour isn’t in power. It – has – no power. All it can do is stay in one piece until the Tories collapse under the contradictions of their Brexit fuck-up and be in a position to replace them as the Government, and that’s exactly what it’s – successfully – doing.

    Everything else is just hot-air and wishful thinking.

  175. 175
    Cacti says:

    @Tony Jay:

    If by smear you mean recitation of his actual words. And I didn’t even include his brainless conspiracy mongering about whether bin Laden was actually dead.

    Or did Cameron make him say that too?

  176. 176
    PeakVT says:

    Does Corbyn have a moral obligation to denounce Brexit – which will, depending on the implementation, cause the end of the Union – even though doing so could split his party and thus strengthen the Tories in the next GE?

    Do the Democrats have a moral obligation to impeach Trumpolini – who has committed clear crimes – even though doing so incompetently (or even competently, given the US media) could (likely, I say) strengthen Trumpolini and the Repukes in the 2020 election?

    Such are the conundrums of this shitty timeline.

  177. 177
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Again, do some research on the relentless attacks on his character from day one of his election as Labour leader. You’ll find a lot of your attitude towards him probably came from many of those constant stream of bullshit stories against him.

    Sorry, this is simply not true. I know enough about the British media to filter or ignore the right wing press. I have not been magically swayed by right wing nonsense about Corbyn.

    I previously noted criticisms of Corbyn from left leaning sources, but you clearly ignored this.

    I have neither love nor respect for the Conservatives.

    But ultimately I think that Corbyn is at best an empty relic of past leftist politics. But he is probably better than any Tory. Hell, it would even be interesting to see him as PM.

    In the end, remaining in the EU might have slowed Britain’s decline into irrelevance and mediocrity. OTOH, BREXIT will damage the nation. Any politician who does not understand this and who does not firmly speak out against Leave is a fool.

    There are lots of fools in political leadership in the UK right now. And the political media are utterly worthless.

  178. 178
    Brachiator says:

    @Tony Jay:

    You don’t think he has a clue, I disagree.

    Yep. Fair enough.

    Labour isn’t in power. It – has – no power. All it can do is stay in one piece until the Tories collapse under the contradictions of their Brexit fuck-up and be in a position to replace them as the Government, and that’s exactly what it’s – successfully – doing.

    I understand all this.

    I think that Labour should have more firmly advocated Remain. I think that in an obviously fantasy world, MPs would have abandoned traditional party loyalties and voted cross party to Remain. Again, I recognize that this is largely fantasy.

    At best, if he ever comes to power, Corbyn will inherit a post BREXIT country, and it will be very difficult to repair the damage done.

    But for now, he is irrelevant.

  179. 179
    Tony Jay says:

    @Cacti:

    I’ve explained exactly what I mean and left it up to you to react to it however you’re capable. So far I’m not impressed, but you can keep on thrashing around if that floats your boat.

  180. 180
    Tony Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    All fair enough. I’ll just point out that the Leader of the Opposition doesn’t have the luxury of indulging in fantasy, however attractive. He or she just has to do what works and wait for a chance to do what’s right.

    Just ask Nancy Pelosi.

  181. 181
    Cacti says:

    @Tony Jay:

    No, you’ve made several transparent, passive-aggressive attempts at implying that Corbyn’s sentiments were correct.

    I disagree fully with his conclusion that killing bin Laden rather than attempting to apprehend him alive for criminal trial was a tragedy. Corbyn’s view is wrong, facile, and the sort of wankery you’d expect from a leftist crank giving an interview to Iranian state television.

  182. 182
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    I understand all this.

    I think that Labour should have more firmly advocated Remain.

    You are contradicting yourself.

    Labour has held together precisely because it hasn’t made itself an open target by trying to consolidate under a Remain stance.

    1/3 of its voters in key seats are fucking idiots who support Brexit. Think of our Blue Dogs, only dumber.

  183. 183
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    In the end, remaining in the EU might have slowed Britain’s decline into irrelevance and mediocrity. OTOH, BREXIT will damage the nation. Any politician who does not understand this and who does not firmly speak out against Leave is a fool.

    And he DID. He was campaigning for remain during the referendum.

    But you’re insisting he should have been purer in his resistence to Brexit after the vote in a futile attempt to…what? Be the sole voice of reason when the Tory government literally doesn’t listen to him? When the Murdoch press attacks him for not attending an event he was literally photographed at and stayed to talk to the actual veterans there? Lose a quarter of Labour’s seats to the Tories and give them a stronger majority to fuck everything up with?

    Green Lantern willpower can’t change anything under the GB rules of government. Corbyn’s only chance to actually stop Brexit, really stop it, would be to become PM.

    That’s it. There is no other way because no Tory government is going to sacrifice itself to do the right thing.

  184. 184
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    Again, I say that Corbyn is pro BREXIT and would like to see a customs union, based on his own past statements. You can’t get around this with claims of a right wing smear.

    He can’t publicly commit to Remain unless he wants to split his own party. He can offer up ideas that sound great to the voters, appear to reduce the damage of Brexit and have of course absolutely no chance of being passed because Tories would never support it. He’s trying to win enough votes for Labour to become the government.

    That’s it.

    All your complaints about the stupidity and insanity of it all should be directed to the proper place, the 1/3 of the British public who are idiots that decide which party gets to be the government. Corbyn has to work within the system he has, not the one you think he should have.

  185. 185
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    I disagree fully with his conclusion that killing bin Laden rather than attempting to apprehend him alive for criminal trial was a tragedy.

    And that’s your right.

    And Corbyn is entitled to his view that it was a tragedy that the only way we could hold him accountable was by shooting him instead of the justice system.

    He witnessed what happened when his own country did that and it did not go well.

  186. 186
    Tony Jay says:

    @Cacti:

    No, I haven’t ‘implied’ a thing. I’ve said clearly that Corbyn’s opinion was correct and I agree with him.

    You, on the other hand, first regurgitated a right-wing smear reliant on James O’Keefe style Deceptive editing, then when you were called on that you jumped to being oh so very, very offended by the original, unedited comments, then you just shat out a boring miasma of whataboutisms like it’s 2003 and that still sells out stadiums.

    Pick an argument and stick to it, otherwise don’t waste my time.

  187. 187
    Cacti says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Were you aiming for an internet leftist bingo with the above stream of consciousness ramble? Do you have a thought rattling around in there somewhere that isn’t regurgitated left fringe claptrap?

  188. 188
    Cacti says:

    @TenguPhule:

    The government Corbyn belongs to whitewashing the police murder of Jean Charles de Menezes? Now that was a tragedy.

    The death of Osama bin Laden? Less tragic than a stubbed toe.

  189. 189
    Original Lee says:

    @Tony Jay: THIS.

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