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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Saturday Morning Open Thread: Elections Matter

Saturday Morning Open Thread: Elections Matter

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And I found this useful: The Washington Post on the parameters for the Democratic debates — when, how, who’s in or not (at the moment).

Reader Interactions

204Comments

  1. 1.

    Immanentize

    Good Morning, All! It’s going to be a lovely day in the Boston area — Clear and sunny. Going to hit 70.

    Which means mowing and yard work for sure.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    We are not a left wing country. We are more left than our government but the country is not left wing. Pretending we are won’t help us solve our problems.

  4. 4.

    Wag

    Here in Colorado, the near parity of women in the State Legislature has also meant that episodes of sexual harassment have been reviewed with a newfound seriousness. It has been refreshing. I hope that more states will get to experience the power of women.

  6. 6.

    Enrico Leo

    >Please don’t write off red states, or joke about letting us go. Women live in these states too and we have rights that need protecting.

    Women and medical personnel should evacuate to the saner portions of the country. Its your only hope.

  7. 7.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax:
    We are trying to fix that water problem….

    When I went to lawschool in the 80s, the Charles was so polluted that they told rowing crews to not fall in — and a dunk meant a trip to the hospital and possible hepititis. Things are very much better now.

  8. 8.

    Another Scott

    @Baud: That one of the hardest things about being liberal in the US – knowing that you are nowhere close to a majority and that you have to accept incremental progress. While the monsters on the other side ( who aren’t a majority either) can easily set the country back 50 years after holding power for 2.

    We have to keep fighting for every seat.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  11. 11.

    Immanentize

    So, the big news in the Imm and Immp home is I signed up for Gigabit internet. The Immp, an online gamer is thrilled! We already had a very fast router, but the new speeds require a new modem. We decided to go with a 3.1 protocol just in case 10gig internet appears soon. Then, a surprising twist — we had to upgrade a number of our Ethernet chords because you need cables of at least 5e quality…. Done, done and done.

    Now just waiting for Comcast to turn it on!

  15. 15.

    satby

    Delayed thanks in the last thread to a few people because I had to get to work ?

    Supposed to be a gorgeous day here, but it’s foggy and cool right now. Hope it clears up.

  23. 23.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Immanentize: Meanwhile, here in the hills and hollers, we rely on mules to take our messages to the nearest town with more than 5000 residents where internet via phone lines exists. You will see this post in about 2 hours.

  24. 24.

    Kristine

    @satby:

    Supposed to be a gorgeous day here, but it’s foggy and cool right now. Hope it clears up.

    No t-storms headed your way?

    Expecting a few here in far NE Illinois, tomorrow if not today. Yesterday’s hi was in the 40s/50s. Today we could bounce up to 70. Everything is green and growing–my native columbine are near blooming, and the crabapples are starting to open. Iris flower buds becoming visible. This really is my favorite time of year, but I wish the weather would make up its mind. I want to put the heavier coats away.

    That said, the snow shovel is still on the deck. After the late snows we had, I’m reluctant to store it until Memorial Day.

  25. 25.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I agree but I do think younger people have less baggage and fear around liberalism or Leftiness than older people. Some of the Right wing attacks just don’t seem to register with them like they do with people my age- we’re more fearful of demonization on things like government health care or tax increases. I think there is a genuine reexamination of some of these ideas for them- they simply didn’t have the same decades of Reagan-era propaganda where it was “no, bad, you can’t have that”. They literally didn’t hear it as long. It really ISN’T a given for them that they can’t have universal health care or collective bargaining at work or a subsidy for child care. They look at these things with fresh eyes.

    If the ideas are too radical they’ll have to lose on their own terms before they accept that, because they don’t have the same history we do. They missed the whole Reagan era.

  28. 28.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax: My older brothers had a model of the 20 mule team they got from saving Borax box tops or something.

  32. 32.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    Sure. But it’s not like younger voters can just try what they want to try. Older voters aren’t just going to go away and let them experiment.

  39. 39.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Right. But they do have a more expansive idea of what’s possible. Part of that is we used to have some of the things they are now told are impossible. There was “free college” in some states and “debt free” college was the norm. They’re understandably asking why that was possible in 1970 and is not possible now. They missed that whole slow gutting and demonization project. They weren’t around for that.

    When Sanders and AOC put their interest rate cap out there the whole discussion became about not that this was radical but that it used to exist, prior to the 1980’s. Usury laws. Remember those? They’re just finding out about them.

  41. 41.

    MomSense

    @satby:

    Happy birthday!???

    I’m visiting my dad this weekend. We are going to go to the contemporary art museum later today. The big exhibit is called Melt Down about the arctic so it won’t be an escape this visit. Should be a lovely day, though.

  45. 45.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    They missed that whole slow gutting and demonization project. 

    They get to experience that in gigabit speed with Trump.

    It’s nice to be able to debate things that didn’t get much airtime before. My original point, however, we shouldn’t pretend that the country as a whole is left wing and is really interested in implementing a lot of these ideas right away. That’s the lie some people keep telling themselves, and I think it hurts us.

  47. 47.

    Starfish

    @Kay:

    They are less afraid because they have less to lose. They are already in a ton of college debt that they should not have to carry. They have dealt with being out of work one or more years of their adult lives. They live in communities run by their elders who do not want to build housing for them. They grew up in schools with active shooting drills.

    If I had to deal with all of that and had been told that the rich would fix things if they had more tax cuts…

  50. 50.

    Albatrossity

    Bizarrely, the very red state of Kansas might be one of the places where abortion rights are the most protected, thanks to a recent 8-1 ruling by our state Supreme Court. The state Constitution protects a woman’s right to choose, and state Constitutional matters that do not conflict with a federal law are decided by state Supreme Courts. If Roe is overturned, it is not likely that there will be a federal law outlawing abortion; the wingnuts seem content to let states decide if your presence on the wrong side of an arbitrary geopolitical boundary affects your health care options.

    Kansas as a beacon of pro-choice freedoms. Whooda thunk it?

  51. 51.

    tobie

    Greetings from western Mass, where I’ve had to make an emergency visit to take care of my folks. Love that picture of Nevada legislators! So good to see. It makes me hopeful for a change.

    ETA: I’m late to this but Happy Birthday, SATBY!

  54. 54.

    Soprano2

    Good morning from the state where conservative men have really weird ideas about rape. First there was “legitimate rape” from a conservative man running for Senate in MO; now we have a conservative man in the state legislature talking about “consensual rape”. I think this is a huge clue to how some conservative men think about this topic; there are the “legitimate rapes”, where a stranger brutally attacks you, then there are the “consensual rapes”, which are all the rest of them.

    After this week I swear I’m going to pole axe anyone who says I’m being hysterical when I say that next they’re coming after safe, effective birth control. Republican men (and even some women) truly want “the sluts” to suffer for wanting to have sex.

  55. 55.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    speaking of commencements, notice how Dump hasn’t done any (other than military academys)

    nor has Dump thrown out the first pitch at a baseball game

  56. 56.

    John S.

    Megan McArdle. Always wrong, as usual.

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/05/16/supreme-court-should-have-never-intervened-abortion/

    Which makes this a good time for the left to step back and ask whether it was ever a good idea to urge such sweeping powers on unelected judges. The benefit of going the judicial route is that you can occasionally achieve outcomes you could never obtain through legislatures; that is how America, a center-right nation, got one of the most liberal abortion regimes in the world.

  58. 58.

    Immanentize

    @John S.:
    I hate this type of crap thinking.

    First, it wasn’t a 5-4 decision, it was 7-2. Second, back then, Protestants didn’t give a rat’s ass about abortion.

    ETA, The supreme Court should never have gotten involved in cross-racial marriage.
    Birth control.
    Striking down poll taxes.
    Etc.

  61. 61.

    CliosFanboy

    @Immanentize: so THAT”S what happened to Banacek !!

    (during the opening of the early 70s TV mystery show, he’s seen rowing on the Charles)

  64. 64.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Soprano2: As I said in the previous thread: Welcome to Misery, the ‘Show Me Your Uteri State” and proud home of the Consensual Rapists.

  65. 65.

    tobie

    @zhena gogolia: @satby: Thanks so much. My mother fell and broke her pelvic bone and my father is beside himself with worry, so I feel like I’m doing physical and psychological triage all at once. The sun is shining, though, and the azaleas and rhododendrons are in bloom, so that is lifting their and my spirit. Appreciate the support here very much.

  67. 67.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Happy birthday, Satby!

    I’m reading Melinda Gates’s book, The Moment of Lift, about empowering women and girls as part of the Gates Foundation work. It’s a good read. She has less than no use for the R war on abortion and birth control. She’s worked with what happens to women when they don’t have access.

  68. 68.

    Mai Naem mobile

    We’re a leftish country in our support of policies but too many people are still scared of the socialist label and Americans don’t travel enough to see that there is nothing scary in socialist Sweden or Sweden meanwhile the RWingers still manage to scare people by using
    Cuba or Venezuela as socialist examples.

  70. 70.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Immanentize: Once upon a time a long time ago, a friend who grew up in Philthydelphia remarked that prior to regattas on the Schuykill Surekill River, crews were issued cyanide pills in case they fell in.

  71. 71.

    Ben Cisco

    Morning everyone.

    Beautiful day outside, going to hammer through the household chores so I can get out there.

    The new law passed here disgusts me to no end; people who were already on fire to vote are in full meltdown mode now. I would echo the sentiments of those who say don’t write us off or make the usual less than helpful cracks about secession. This is a real fight, there are plenty of people who are fighting on the side of the light, and you will neither see nor read of them in the “news.” Just a thought.

  72. 72.

    Immanentize

    @tobie:
    Hang in there! My Mom just tumped over on a walk a couple of weeks ago, but not serious injuries, thankfully. It is scary for me not being really all that close when these things happen. And if it is any consolation to either parent, at least they can commiserate with Jimmy and Roslyn.

  73. 73.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I heard Trump’s campaign manager saying the polls looks bad but he thought they were doing better on the Electoral College side. They probably are. Plus the same things that make the EC a problem, make the Senate a problem. That’s how they plan to perpetuate minority rule.

  75. 75.

    Immanentize

    @Ben Cisco: Hi Ben! Two things:

    I never talk about succession because my Mother’s family sent many a young man to death preventing it. Rather, I feel like Billy Sherman these days:

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    Second, I hope you are doing well, and did you see that there was a limited release of a Deep Space IX documentary? Maybe even from the Defiant?

  76. 76.

    Duane

    @Soprano2: There are no bigger republican idiots than Missouri’s. Mandatory motorcycle helmet laws repealed, provided you have health insurance. They know it’s dangerous, will cause deaths, don’t care cause Freedumb! This from the same bunch that won’t accept Medicaid expansion and says government can’t mandate people have health insurance, but they just did.
    The republican hypocrites want government out of your life, unless you’re a woman.

  77. 77.

    Citizen Alan

    @John S.:

    Is there any positive benefit to quoting that vile bitch in any context? She’s always wrong and she’s always evil. And every time someone reminds me she exists, my blood pressure goes up.

  78. 78.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    That’s the other thing. The rape exception. How long does it take to get a rape conviction if the alleged perpetrator doesn’t plead and goes to trial?
    How do they plan on applying this? Any of it? None of them have thought about it at all.

  79. 79.

    Barbara

    @Wag: You guys also recently addressed the “surprise” medical bill issue with my favorite solution (setting benchmark pricing). On the other hand, drug importation is one of my least favored ideas, but I understand why states are going for it: the political stalemate at the federal level makes other solutions seeminly unobtainable.

    Remember that there are state and congressional elections from now until November, which means you can do something. And remember that, ultimately, the fate of Sisyphus was not an unhappy one, at least not for most of us commenting here. Keep running up that hill.

  80. 80.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    Does the rape exception apply if the alleged rapist is aquitted? The answer is “no, because the child is born by then”.

  81. 81.

    Soprano2

    @Duane: You’ll get no argument from me there. At least their attempt to gut Amendment 1 went down in flames for now. I’m sure they’ll try again next year.

  83. 83.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Yep, that’s the whole point – they can seem merciful when they really aren’t. What enrages me most is the idea that they care about “babies” or “life”, because they don’t. They care about controlling women’s sex lives, full stop.

  84. 84.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    Life and health of the mother. Are we going to have a blood pressure standard in state law? Because the danger of that varies, depending on a host of other health factors. This is pretty important. We’re talking about incarcerating people for 50 years. We better know what’s the prosecution bp standard for medical intervention. There will be trials.

    The Right better get to work and figure some of this out. They’re 50 years behind. They can’t pull this part out of their ass.

  85. 85.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    I have literally hundreds of questions – the questions they were too lazy and sloppy to ask, but questions that will be asked because these are actual laws that govern millions of people and people have a due process to know what is and what isn’t barred. They should have spent less time reciting the history of the Holocaust into the legislative record and more time doing some actual thinking. Are they familiar with the concept of prosecutorial discretion? If not, they’re about to get familiar with it.

    We’re going to do this case by case in all 50 states? So they actually have no earthly idea how this affects women or anyone else, yet they went ahead anyway.

  87. 87.

    Mary G

    Happy Birthday to @satby: I am sure you are busy selling your wonderful soaps.???? ????

    Hope Hershey is still enjoying life too.

  88. 88.

    Duane

    @Kay: What about the criminal penalties for doctors? How’s that going to work?
    Damn right none of this was thought out. It’s obviously about controlling and punishing women. The rest doesn’t matter to them.

  90. 90.

    Barbara

    @John S.: Willfully crap thinking. Seriously, I won’t read her most of the time, because she is not animated by honesty. She is Ms. Freakonomics, taking the out of left field view to provoke, and in nearly every instance there is no support or even well-thought out logic to her position. Her crap thinking about the lack of harm from insider trading was so crap thst it wasn’t even in line with her Chicago School heros and she started “bleeting” out pathetic pleas about being misunderstood. McArdle is a clear case of failing upward.

  93. 93.

    Sebastian

    @Kay:

    Because it doesn’t matter. They’d be fine with abortion for PoC but then they’d lose a tool for incarceration and shaming.

    For white women, they are forced breeders. Or just Breeders, as I like to call them.

  94. 94.

    Barbara

    @Ben Cisco: No jokes about secession. Nearly 40 years ago Virginia was a red state and I was a student with an unwanted pregnancy and Roe protected me. Now, there is very little risk Virginia is going to join other Southern states in this anti-woman crusade. I just wish I had better ideas for you.

  96. 96.

    Suzanne

    @Duane:

    It’s obviously about controlling and punishing women.

    It’s also about producing more white infants for infertile “Christians” to adopt. It’s a two-fer!

    Nah, it’s time to reject these places. If there is a massive relocation effort to get women and girls out of these SHITHOLE STATES and set them up somewhere more sane, do let me know and I’ll fling some dollars their way.

  97. 97.

    Baud

    @Suzanne:

    Probably would be more efficient to pay our people to move to some of these small pop States and take over their politics.

  98. 98.

    grandmaBear

    Happy birthday, Satby!

    It’s supposed to get up to 87 here in Dayton today. I had to come in from weeding at 10 it was already so warm. And when I finally have time for it too. Okay, on to the 15 other things on my list today.

  99. 99.

    Victor Matheson

    @Kay: Usury laws are REALLY old. The Book of Ezekiel states that anyone who loans at interest should be put to death.

    Funny how evangelicals don’t quote that bible verse as often as those ones about Sodom and Gomorrah.

  102. 102.

    Barbara

    @Suzanne: They really don’t seem to get how much has changed. More affluent women and girls will go out of state. Those who don’t manage to get an abortion are more likely to keep their kids. And infertile Christian couples will still try infertility treatment first. It’s just not 1962 anymore.

  104. 104.

    Suzanne

    @Baud: No. No one should have to endure this garbage. It’s a cold day in hell before I take my daughter and my transgender son into a place like that. I don’t even want to change planes in a place like that.

    I will note that, as much as Arizona sucks, I was able to get my abortion at the Planned Parenthood clinic about 20 minutes away.

    I don’t know if there is any solution for these deep red places. WaPo had an interesting piece this week about how, even hundreds of years later in some circumstances, the people who live in places where slavery and other massive genocides occurred ***still*** exhibit more racism. The idea of leaving vulnerable people to suffer until we come up with some legislative or judicial solution is not acceptable.

    Nah. We need an Underground Railroad for the 21st century to get them out.

  106. 106.

    Ruckus

    @Immanentize:
    Yeah, falling while waking down the street or a flight of stairs is less fun than it sounds. I’ve taken tumbles 3 times and managed to catch myself from hitting the ground, but it was close. Had to learn to walk differently, to watch where my feet go, to always hold on to the handrail, to be prepared because it happens, like it or not. Exercise helps for what it’s worth.

  107. 107.

    Miss Bianca

    @MagdaInBlack: She always has a plan. And that’s why I am rooting for Senator Warren’s campaign.

    Good for her, and good for all the other Democratic candidates speaking out about this. Hell, while we are passing out the accolades, good for Bernie for speaking up unequivocally.

    This “pro-life” shit must end.

    @satby: oh, and happy birthday to you!!

  108. 108.

    MagdaInBlack

    @Barbara:
    I think they do get how much things have changed and THAT is the problem. They want to go back to 1962, or ’58 or whatever time they deem to have been the golden age of white male dominance….where women and everyone else knew their place and their role.
    Theyre well aware they are in the minority. Thats why the insane, poorly considered behavior. Theyre terrified.

    And Im off for cut and color for my bday, which was Wednesday.
    Happy Birthday, Satby ?

  109. 109.

    Sab

    @Victor Matheson: Also if you do read the Sodom and Gomorrah verses they have nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with failing to take care of widows and orphans.

  110. 110.

    Inspectrix

    @Immanentize:
    I’m also enjoying the weather here in this blue Boston bubble.

    First they came for our sex ed. We are dealing with a society full of adults who never learned basic anatomy or body functions. One should not be able to vote on this if you can’t pass a basic human anatomy and reproductive health quiz.

  111. 111.

    Gozer

    Gonna be 77 and sunny today north of Philly so Dr. Mrs. and I are gonna completely clean out my home office before remodeling. I have no idea what to do with the space, but it’ll be nice to change it up after having the same thing for 10 years.

    After that it’s putting down that weed sheet stuff and some new mulch (did I mention how much I fucking hate yard work? I mean, it’s the worst.)

  112. 112.

    Ruckus

    @MagdaInBlack:
    1850.
    None of them lived then of course, they just know it was better. Actually they probably think that about going back even farther, around 1750 possibly. Fewer of those laws that bother them and a government such as it was, that did. They did pay taxes then though so that was not good but owning land was how they had rights, and that appeals to them.

  113. 113.

    Barbara

    @MagdaInBlack: Yes and no. Yes, they noticed the changes, but they attribute them to the “wrong” kind of incentives, and thus see them as reversible through the “right” incentives. And they will not see the declining attendance in their churches as any kind of sign.

  114. 114.

    Victor Matheson

    @Sab: Trust me, I know that very well. Here’s an interesting thing I didn’t know about the sodom story until i started to do some research for the adult Sunday school class I am teaching tomorrow, however.

    While homosexuality is (kind of) mentioned in the original story (the men of Sodom want to gang rape Lot’s male/angelic houseguests), after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the event is brought up about 25 more times in the Old and New Testaments. These references all note how wicked the residents were and often describe what they did. Not a single time in these later references is it said that the source of their wickedness was sexuality of any sort. Most commonly they accuse the people of Sodom of being unwelcome to strangers or cruel to the poor (like widows and orphans). Sounds like the fundamentalists might be hurling the word “Sodomite” at the wrong people…

  117. 117.

    J R in WV

    @Kay:

    …They can’t pull this part out of their ass.

    Oh, Kay! Yes, they can, and will, pull it all right out of their asses!! You will hear the most stupid stuff in rule making meetings you ever heard.

    Everyone knows, for example, that a high BP kills people very, very slowly, so 7 or 8 months, that's no kind of health hazard, just take your medication and rest!!!

    Monsters gonna kill women all over the place, don’t care AT ALL!!!

  119. 119.

    Ruckus

    @J R in WV:
    Seems more like they do care. Not in the way normal people care but still they care if women die. Hell they seem to be cheering for it.

  120. 120.

    Steeplejack

    WTF?! The F.A. cup final is not on TV, only streaming on ESPN+ ($4.99 a month). This is an outrage! Harrumph.

  121. 121.

    trollhattan

    Kiddo has her final track meet of the year, section champs. Let’s see how the weather works for her.

    High near 59. South wind 9 to 15 mph, with gusts as high as 18 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New precipitation amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible.

    Uhhh, no 1600 PR today but at least everybody gets to suffer together! Told her to huddle up in the pack for three laps then see what happens on #four.

    Normal for the date is 80.

  122. 122.

    Ksmiami

    @Baud: my spouse has been saying this. Move 100k ppl from a block in Los Angeles to Wyoming/Montana etc and wala more senators

  124. 124.

    J R in WV

    @Ruckus:

    Seems more like they do care. Not in the way normal people care but still they care if women die. Hell they seem to be cheering for it.

    Well, of course you’re correct. I was imprecise with my language!

    They care in the most immoral, stupid way by wanting to kill as many women as possible. I really think Suzanne has the right idea. If all the women leave, maybe those guys will get the idea that people won’t stand for their insane distortion of their own “holy book” and its teachings.

    We have met the anti-christ and his name is Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell jr., James Dobson, Southern Baptist preachers of all names, etc. Preaching the opposite of Christ’s teachings!

  125. 125.

    Victor Matheson

    @Sab: no offense taken! I completely agree with you and it is nice to see someone else pointing out the fact that the Bible itself is not particilarly anti-gay.

  126. 126.

    Aleta

    @Kay: I’m not sure they care too much right now about what will happen in court (and, obviously, about the women they are trapping).

    They’ve been taught that legislative display of obedience guarantees money and support, and that any shadows in their past like sex assault and fraud can be covered up. And they’re counting on a culture in which treating women as objects and currency for status and laughs goes unnoticed more than half the time, even by the non-right wing.

    I think Kavanaugh was important in many ways, incl. as an example to them, especially since T was under serious investigation by then.

    This is way beyond cynical, it’s a plague of death spread by vermin. Their use of females as “any means justifies the end” is one of the top sickest political moments of the last 50 years, which is saying a lot.

    Some of them may be assuming they’ll be rescued from responsibility by their opposition. (Counting on change before enactment. Or there’s Collins’ trademarked method of taking credit for “compromise.”)

    Political developments since T and Pence have put frat rituals, rw religious rules about women, rape drugs and those legendary fab parties baited with models and hired girls in even more serious perspective in this culture.

    We’re a culture in which women are stereotyped by race for their usability for fun sex and for their disposability. It puts some* more at risk for violence and death than many white women are.

    * Japanese women, Thai women, Chinese women, black women, trans women of color, Spanish-speaking women, indigenous women, C. and S. American women, and all poor and all trans women, to name a few examples

  128. 128.

    CaseyL

    I appreciate that there are good people fighting the good fight in Red states, but unless there are a few hundred thousand of them who haven’t voted before who turn out from now on I don’t see how they prevail.

    The US is going to be like any other impoverished state run by a corrupt and brutal regime: most people will keep their heads down and just try to live their lives.

  129. 129.

    Raven

    I went to habitat and got a used walking boot for $10 for my self-diagnosed stress fracture and bought some cbd oil. I’ll report back.

  130. 130.

    Cacti

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Missouri was never a progressive state, but state level politics there used to be reasonably middle of the road (the generation ago that I lived there). What happened?

  134. 134.

    Raven

    @Steeplejack: moderation for some reason

    Athens, GA
    We’re here for you and look forward to your visit!

    At Your CBD Store, we believe in bringing the highest quality CBD products to market.

  136. 136.

    Amir Khalid

    In the FA Cup final, it’s Manchester City 3-0 Wolverhampton Wanderers. Game over for the brave Wolves, unless they can come back like Liverpool against Barcelona — or Tottenham against City.
    ETA:
    It’s 4-0 now. Any faint hopes of a Wolves comeback are pretty much extinguished.

  137. 137.

    germy

    “A lot of consumers don’t realize that the FDA does not regulate dietary supplements like multivitamins/minerals and herbal supplements before they go to market. Supplements can be contaminated with dangerous ingredients like lead or pharmaceutical drugs. In some supplements, the amount of the nutrient stated on the bottle is not the amount actually in the bottle,” said Beth Kitchin, a registered dietitian and an assistant professor in the University of Alabama at Birmingham’s Department of Nutrition Sciences.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cvs-test-unregulated-vitamins-dietary-supplements-n1006531

  140. 140.

    Keith P.

    Police ordered a McDonald’s in Scotland to stop selling milkshakes over fears people would dunk them over Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage, staff said, after a flurry of incidents left prominent far-right activists doused in the creamy liquid.

    Bonus points for getting “flurry” in there

  141. 141.

    Ruckus

    @J R in WV:
    It’s worse.
    They like women. Subservient women. Women who know their place, if you get my meaning. Women on their backs when desired, women cooking, cleaning, squirting out babies, raising those babies……. They are lazy fucks who think the world revolves around them. They elected the head of the clan to prove that they are right and anyone who doesn’t agree with them must suffer. They worship the wealthy men for they want to be them, to be able to buy their women, the stuff that makes others think they are in charge, businesses, over priced/over sized homes, people to staff those homes and their needs/desires.
    They have no respect for anyone but themselves and those who agree/support them. And they think that anyone who does not agree/support them must die, or at least do their bidding, for nothing other than scraps. They care not about anything but themselves. They are selfish immature little boys with a god complex.

  143. 143.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @germy: When I was on ISU’s human subject review board, there was guy doing research on the effect of supplements. We used to make him get everything tested because there was no way to know what was really in them. They’re totally unregulated.

  144. 144.

    germy

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I remember watching an episode of “Second Opinion” on PBS. I don’t remember what the particular disease was, but apparently the patient was asked by his doctor at one point if he was being poisoned by his wife. Blood tests revealed high levels of arsenic. Turns out he’d tried self medicating himself with OTC herbal supplements.

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    @Ruckus:
    Part II

    They are selfish immature little boys with a god complex.

    Now you can see where their distorted concept of religion comes into it. And that since it’s inception, religions have always had men in charge to keep the ideals going, to keep subservience foremost. Some are not as obvious nor as structured towards this subservience but all have it. With the exception of those that involve women equally in all aspects.

  146. 146.

    debbie

    @Soprano2:

    I wonder if that legislator knows the legislator who recently stated his belief that women could hold in their menstrual blood (and so prevent miscarriage) the same way men hold in their pee.

  147. 147.

    Barbara

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: If you buy supplements manufactured in Germany you can rely on product labeling. They regulate the quality there. Some supplements manufactured here advertise USP lab certification of content. Almost none of the product claims have been verified through controlled randomized studies.

  148. 148.

    L85NJGT

    Re: Pat Robertson’s defection – the hardline (male) wahoos are taking his female audience for granted, and he’s worried they are going to wander off and vote female reproductive rights.

  149. 149.

    chris

    @debbie:

    the legislator who recently stated his belief that women could hold in their menstrual blood (and so prevent miscarriage) the same way men hold in their pee.

    Aliens among us, really fucking stupid aliens.

  150. 150.

    raven

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I hurt like a mofo, if I get to sleep I wake up every 90 minutes with sharp pain in my shoulders and elbows. I exacerbated all that by surf fishing for 8 hours a day for a week. I had a stroke last year so I’m not supposed to take nsaids. This shit may help and it may not, but it’s worth a try. My almost 16 year old dog has been on it for a year and he’s doing great.

    I’ve read the studies and understand the issues but what the fuck, I smoked the shit for 30 years and look at me now!

  151. 151.

    Brachiator

    @Ruckus:

    It’s worse.
    They like women. Subservient women. Women who know their place, if you get my meaning. Women on their backs when desired, women cooking, cleaning, squirting out babies, raising those babies…….

    Sadly, it’s more complicated than that. There is a sizable number of women who vote Republican, knowing that the elected reps will vote for restrictive laws. Some of these women believe that these laws protect them. Some of them want to control their daughters, and obviously they also want to control other women.

  153. 153.

    Raven

    @debbie: Thank you, I’m well aware of rice, it also has done ZERO for this foot. I’m pretty sure it’s a stress fracture.

  156. 156.

    Ruckus

    @Brachiator:
    Yes there are multiple sides to this story. None of them are good or reasonable.
    Humans are somewhat complicated. Some of them will do things repeatedly that are not in their best interests. Some of them will trust others to do what’s best for them, when the trusted have never done anything for anyone but themselves. Then there are those who really don’t have the means to be smarter or better advocates for themselves. And we have history, which is replete with examples of the above and your point.
    And your point really is that women are humans. With all the positive and negative points that men have. Of course there are women who think that others have their best interests in mind, when no such thing exists in those minds.
    Humans have to learn not to be selfish, to understand that survival can be enhanced by laws and that the opposite is also true, that not everyone many don’t have others in mind when they reach for power. Men have traditionally been the selfish ones, the ones with power, as often the power was taken by brute force. Few men have ever been raped, if any actually at all. Many, many women have. So women are not exactly like men, but mentally they can be.

  157. 157.

    JR

    @Suzanne: Relocation ain’t happening. Setting aside the issues with leaving your family and friends behind there are a whole bunch of other issues:

    Cost of living is a lot lower in Alabama than pretty much any blue state, excepting some rust belt states.
    Some people (teachers for example) have decent jobs that they cannot easily move.
    Parochialism is still a thing; even if you have a similar political outlook, a lot of people are biased for/against regional accents, habits, etc.

    The best we can do is make life the best it can be for all of us. The great migration will be forced upon us soon enough anyways.

  160. 160.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Consumers Lab does a good job of testing supplements to verify that they contain what’s advertised. (They do fail products that don’t.) While they don’t vouch for the effectiveness of supplements, they also do a good job of rounding up the actual research that’s been done. I find them well worth the cost of the subscription.

  162. 162.

    Cacti

    @JR:

    Disagree. A great migration is not without historical precedent in this country, and rural flight has been a real time phenomenon among the younger generations for multiple decades.

    Some will stay where they are for the reasons you’ve described, but I expect that if these laws persist, female flight will become the next demographic phenomenon in red America.

  164. 164.

    patrick II

    Emily Atkin of the New Republic appeared in the last segment of Chris Hayes last night, entitled “Arrest me you Alabama cowards”.
    In a moving conversation, Ms Atkin described her own newly revealed abortion and said that women are responsible for their own abortion. If someone needs to be arrested have the courage to arrest the ones responsible. By arresting doctors, you not only take away our right to an abortion, but a woman’s agency. Ms. Atkin herself had an abortion, and takes responsibility and says if Alabama wants to arrest someone, ” Arrest me you Alabama cowards.”
    “How dare you say it isn’t me – you take my autonomy away again.”

  166. 166.

    Suzanne

    @JR: Relocation has happened before (Great Migration, CA gold rush, settlement of the west, etc.). It can happen when we decide that it is in the best interest of a portion of the population worthy of our resources and when we provide incentives and/or assistance.

    Cacti accurately notes that people are already fleeing dying rural areas. I absolutely believe that relocation assistance in the form of affordable housing, educational opportunities, and job training and placement for poor and working-class women to get them out of these places could be really effective. Not for all, but for a lot—and that matters.

    Besides, when did we give up on the idea of moving to chase opportunity in this country?

  167. 167.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    Jumping into the comments late. Just watched Man City trounce Watford 6-0 to win the FA Cup. Historic Triple. Now settling down to watch The Eurovision Song Contest which is delightfully ridiculous and utterly camp, more so as Graham Norton hosts for us in the UK. His comments on the acts, costumes etc., alone are worth watching the show for.

  170. 170.

    Dan B

    @Victor Matheson: Glad you did the research. I’ve heard lots of interpretations primarily about the word arsenokotai (sp?) and another greek word. The “standard definition” is homosexual but the more scholarly interpretation is inconsiderate and unwelcome. The Sodomites violated the command to hospitality, an important aspect of survival for travelers in desert regions. Don’t quote me on the fine derails.

    The other part of the story is that the Sodomites included men and women who wanted to rape the “male” angels. The story of welcoming the stranger gets lost in the fundamentalist version.

    Jimmy Carter has some excellent quotes that include the fact that people were aware of homosexuality in biblical times but it is rarely, if ever, mentioned and is never mentioned by Jesus. Jesus talks repeatedly about welcoming the stranger, the poor, and foreigners but never about homosexuality.

  174. 174.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    I have a Ring doorbell and the app has local crime reports from other Ring owners. One notification just popped up, the person says their Ring doorbell was stolen and used to make a porno flick. They’re Christian and deeply offended by this. I’m still crying from laughing so hard.

  179. 179.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Here are my principal conclusions:1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.3. Partisanship has eroded our system of checks and balances.4. Few members of Congress have read the report.— Justin Amash (@justinamash) May 18, 2019

  180. 180.

    CatFacts

    I don’t have an answer to the ways the rural/urban political divide causes huge problems in the Senate and the Electoral College, but I’ve got to admit I’m pretty uncomfortable with the prevalence of “let red-staters starve” and “mass relocate liberals to the heartland” ideas on the left. Both of those concepts have some really nasty precedents in world history if taken to extremes. I sure don’t buy the “trump voters are just misunderstood and will see reason if we explain nicely” strategy, but I’m not eager to find out what happens if Democrats decide to fight Republicans by implementing stuff like mass migration. That’s just fighting fire with fire and creating even more social disruption than we’ve already got.

  181. 181.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @mrmoshpotato: Here ya go:

    Someone stole my Ring doorbell…
    …and they used it to film a porno movie with. I would post the footage but it’s too hardcore. What can I do about this? This town is full of so many sicko’s, it’s discusting. I’m Christian and I never would of moved hear if I knew how depraved this town actually is!

    I’m pretty sure this is a joke, you’d need to connected to their wifi to get it to work or hack the device(wouldn’t be worth the trouble) and OMG! their filming porn in LA!

  183. 183.

    Dan B

    @Suzanne: Add LGBT people migrating to cities and the coasts although that may be slowing somewhat due to the internet. You are less isolated in moderate sized cities and rural areas than previously. LGBT migration would add anothe percentage point or two – 3 to 6 million.

    There are other groups as well.

  184. 184.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    What drew us from the Detroit area to Iowa were two employers who actively recruited us and made it worth our while.

    John Deere has trouble hiring research engineers unless they come from that area. So they knock themselves out to help spouses find work and treat their employees pretty well. ISU faced similar problems. Unless there’s meaningful work, people can’t and won’t go there.

  187. 187.

    Dan B

    @CatFacts: I believe that Justin Amash crunched numbers and found that 6 or 7 million people voted Obama in 2012 and T in 2016. There are many reasons but it seems that putting a million back in our camp might not hurt. There will be voter suppression and discouragement on a similar scale so the debate is best on strategy. Some people aim their anger at T voters. I believe a shift to condemning T and Pence, plus their power and ideologically rabid enablers while refraining from blaming T and Pence voters is easy and wise.

    And I am very aware that T and especially Pence would be pleased if I and my partner were “converted” or disappeared. We make the Pences of this country very uncomfortable because they can’t stop thinking about all the secks. And the “children”. Think of the children!!!

  188. 188.

    Barbara

    @CatFacts: There is no real world plan afoot to relocate a Manhattan city block to Wyoming, as if this were China sending lots of coastal residents to Tibet. As rhetoric it probably isn’t helpful, but continuing undemocratic drift resulting from imbalance between population and power is going to generate more and greater resentment. There is no way around it.

  190. 190.

    Barbara

    @Dan B: Whenever someone gets wound about people having sex in ways they don’t approve of, I am tempted to ask how much time they spend imagining other people’s sex lives generally, I mean, anyone’s. I don’t see why they get a free pass for being so prurient.

  191. 191.

    CatFacts

    @Barbara: Oh, I absolutely agree. I was just pointing out that I think the rhetoric really is unhelpful because it’s so very undemocratic in itself. And as Dan B points out, the right is perfectly happy to counter red-state migration fantasies with their own population-control fantasies about LGBTQ people. I’d rather skip the population-control fantasies altogether and focus on things like statehood for DC and Puerto Rico, and dismantling of the right-wing propaganda machine.

  193. 193.

    Suzanne

    @CatFacts: Making states of DC and Puerto Rico doesn’t protect women and girls in Alabama from their state governments. Unless there is some serious federal action, like a constitutional amendment, they are still vulnerable. I don’t believe this Supreme Court is going to uphold Roe.

    Just as I happily welcome refugees from other countries, I welcome refugees from within my own country.

    @Dan B: From the data I have seen, there has been no slowing of people moving to urban areas from rural areas. The supposed work-from-anywhere future really hasn’t arrived yet.

  194. 194.

    satby

    Back from the market and letting the dogs out, so sitting down for the first time in 10 hours. Thanks to everyone for the birthday good wishes!

  195. 195.

    Amir Khalid

    @Litlebritdifrnt:
    My bad. What can I do, but claim weakness from hunger? That, and admit that Liverpool weren’t playing so I wasn’t really playing attention. :-)

  196. 196.

    CatFacts

    @Suzanne: Oh, I agree with you on Roe, and I agree that that blue states should happily take in those want to move. I think I replied to the wrong person, honestly. I was talking more generally about the extreme rhetorical fantasies like forcing red states to secede or moving Democrats into states like Wyoming en masse. We already live in a country where the right wing is forcing their delusional population control fantasies about fetuses, immigrants, and LGBTQ people onto the rest of us–I don’t think it’s helpful to add fantasies of our own, even rhetorically. The political climate’s just crazy enough that some nitwit might actually try to do them!

  197. 197.

    Barbara

    @Suzanne: And how could it when rural areas are the least likely to have fast reliable Internet coverage? Seriously, a state like WV or MS could probably justify the equivalent of rural electric co-ops for high speed service on economic development grounds alone. If people who act like their current elected officials had been around in the 30s half the country would probably still lack electricity.

  199. 199.

    Ruckus

    @Raven:
    Pretty much the same for the lower ranks, pipe racks with canvas bottoms. Except ours had two vertical pipes that held the racks stationary, no chains. The head was about the same with one difference, actual toilets to sit on. Anyone who sailed on one of those ships would have been right at home on the one I sailed on. And the DDG series, the Adams class was still steam powered. Faster, about 35 knots or so, electrical and electronics up to the time of building, early 60s, but mostly if you knew one you could easily learn the later.

  200. 200.

    Ruckus

    @Raven:
    Pretty much the same for the lower ranks, pipe racks with canvas bottoms. Except ours had two vertical pipes that held the racks stationary, no chains. The head was about the same with one difference, actual toilets to sit on. Anyone who sailed on one of those ships would have been right at home on the one I sailed on. And the DDG series, the Adams class was still steam powered. Faster, about 35 knots or so, electrical and electronics up to the time of building, early 60s, but mostly if you knew one you could easily learn the later.

  202. 202.

    J R in WV

    @Raven:

    From that DD site I went on to find a site about my ship, AS-16 which participated in supporting a sub squadron in the South Pacific in 1944-45. I served on her 1970-73, at which time she was doing shakedown cruises prior to being deployed to the Med until she was pulled back for being deactivated.

    Old memories! Thanks!
    She was

  203. 203.

    J R in WV

    @CatFacts:

    I think the rhetoric really is unhelpful because it’s so very undemocratic in itself.

    How is it undemocratic for people to move due to political pressure?

    If your state opposes your selfhood, why shouldn’t you move to a place that supports you? Whether the issue is race-based discrimination, gender-based discrimination, whatever… if you know that in NY or LA or Chicago your race, your gender is welcome, shouldn’t you feel free to relocate there?

    That’s what I think, anyway. Late to the rest of this thread, I’ve been looking at pix of WW II destroyers. Thanks again Raven!

  204. 204.

    Soprano2

    @Cacti: Not Ozark, but I can answer that question. Republicans got the voters to put term limits on the state House and Senate. The more conservative Democrats who had been in office for a long time were term-limited out of office and replaced by Republicans, and here we are 20 years later with a crazy Republican majority in both houses. It’s depressing – in 2008 MO was still considered a swing state. No more…… now we’re not that different from Alabama.

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